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9 in 10 young people in the UK believe that their life is

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lacking purpose.

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And what are people turning back to religion?

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There is something going on.

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This is about the most important thing that anyone can ever

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find out about their life.

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And God has made us for a purpose and a purpose flows from that

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meaning.

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I kind of reject that because this is a perfect example of a

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solution being provided

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without explaining exactly why it provides a solution.

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And that's what people are doing in religious traditions.

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I hard disagree.

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For me, finding meaning in purpose is like a very practical

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thing.

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And that's what I want to talk about today.

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We are joined by an atheist, Christian, and spiritual thinker

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to find an answer to the purpose crisis millions are facing

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today.

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One of the reasons that I'm a Christian is because it's the

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best explanation for the way things are.

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But if Christianity would true, we would not expect the kind of

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suffering that's present in the world.

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So I'm very curious.

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What if I died from cancer one years old?

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So someone violated God's commands and that had an impact on

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the world.

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So children get cancer because of a few million years ago,

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someone ate it free.

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If you want religion to provide existential comfort for people

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who are suffering,

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you have to do more in the face of children dying of cancer.

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Then some reference to mythical human being sort of pure

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worldview

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does not have a way of making sense or moral intuitions about

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suffering.

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It's not an adequate worldview.

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What I would say to science and spirituality can really add is

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it's effective

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in terms of reducing suicidality, improving resilience,

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giving them a reason to wake up in the mornings and we'll get

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into that.

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And Alex, if someone's listening now and they feel lost in

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their life,

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is there any advice that you could give them?

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So as an atheist, I'm offering a psychological explanation.

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So I would recommend that you're a spot on Alex.

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So the first thing to understand is it is an internal feeling.

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And we found in our study that if you f*** your sense of

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purpose increases by 68%.

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Just give me 30 seconds of your time.

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Two things I wanted to say.

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The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning

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into the show.

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Week after week means the world's all of us and this really is

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a dream that we absolutely never had

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and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

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But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just

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getting started.

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And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people

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that listen to this podcast regularly

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and follow us on this app.

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Here's a promise I'm going to make to you.

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I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as

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good as I can now and into the future.

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We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to

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and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you

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love about this show.

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Thank you.

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Ollic, Greg, Alex, the reason I wanted to speak to all three of

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you today is to discuss

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meaning and purpose.

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And there's some stats that I wanted to share that kind of

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frame the discussion.

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Three and five young Americans believe that their life lacks

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purpose.

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Nine and 10 young people in the UK believe that their life is

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lacking purpose.

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And when I look across other stats as it relates to things like

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mental health,

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59% of Brits said they lived a meaningful life compared to just

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25% who said they did not.

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In an October 21 survey, 34% of men in the UK said life had no

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meaning compared to 18% of women

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and 50% of the same group who said that their lives lack

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purpose in meaning,

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said that their poor mental health was linked to not knowing

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what to do with their life.

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And to give some further stats to try found really interesting

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around the rise of really

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curiosity in the UK, a belief in God amongst 18 to 24 year olds

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has risen from 18% in 2021 to 37%

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in 2020, 25% according to you, GOV. And in the UK monthly

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church attendance has risen from

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4% up to 15% in 2025. There is something going on and that's

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what I want to talk about today.

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But before we do that, I'd love to understand the perspective

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that all of you bring to this

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conversation. So if I start with yourself, Alok.

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You know, it's interesting. You mentioned a lot about mental

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health. I'm a psychiatrist.

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So for me, finding meaning and purpose is like a very practical

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thing. So literally a patient

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will come into my office. They'll say, I have no reason to live

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. There's there's nothing worth it

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in life. I am suicidal. I want to kill myself. So I have a job

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as a clinician to like fix

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that problem in a very like practical way. So I've got, you

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know, a couple of weeks, hopefully 15

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20 weeks to teach them how to find purpose. And so usually the

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way that I approach that is there's

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there's a lot of sort of evidence based scientific approaches

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to finding purpose.

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I think those tend to work really well, but I'm sure as my

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philosopher colleagues will point

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out and tear me apart, you know, science has a lot of

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shortcomings. And so then what I tend to

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find works incredibly well is adding a certain degree of

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spiritual practice to that.

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And usually when we put those two things together, things work.

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And the real proof point for me was when

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I started streaming 10,000 people reached out to me in one one,

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asking, Hey, like do you have room

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in your private practice? And so I started to think about, Okay

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, if this is a methodology,

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then can it be taught? So I started this coaching program and

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what we found in our pilot study of

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1,453 people is that if you stick with the program for about 20

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weeks, your sense of purpose

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increases by 68%. I'd love to hear from my colleagues, but I

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think, you know, if someone asks me,

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what is the meaning of life? I don't know. But if someone says,

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I have no meaning, can you help me

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with that? The answer is absolutely yes. And I want to attempt

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to just define two terms that

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you said that one is purpose, and it doesn't have to be a

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perfect definition, but roughly what

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you mean by that. And then you said you introduced spiritual

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practice. What did you mean by that?

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So what I think about is purpose is using something called

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factor analysis. So if you ask someone,

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do you have direction in life? Do you have purpose in life? Is

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there meaning in life? All three of

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those things clustered together to some thing, even being in

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control correlates with that. So

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if you were in control of your life, your sense of purpose will

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increase. So there are a lot of

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these like words that we use, but all of these words tie back

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to some internal sense of what is

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happening in your life. So that's how I would describe purpose.

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In terms of spiritual practices,

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what my experience is is that if you look at human beings who

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say they have purpose,

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and human beings who don't have purpose, they're lived

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experiences in life or different.

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So when I work with survivors of trauma, they have certain

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experiences, like literally we can

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scientifically sort of measure this. You have a particular

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experience, which destroys your sense of

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meaning in the world. I had a patient once who was attacked in

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a bathroom for about five minutes.

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And in five minutes, this person had a sense of what they were

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doing in life was dating,

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was doing while in college, had loving parents, and in five

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minutes, their compass for navigating

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the world was shattered. So if we sort of think about

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experience can lead to a loss of purpose,

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experience can also lead to a gain in purpose. Now the

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spiritual tradition that I come from is all

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about particular practices that evoke certain subjective

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experiences. And as people have those

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experiences, their sense of purpose increases. And this is

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where I think there's a major

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shortcoming of science. So science can tell you what you should

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do, but it doesn't create experiences

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in and of itself. So we can scientifically understand that the

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highest risk factor for pornography

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addiction is having no meaning in life. But even if we know

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that, that doesn't help us like fix

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the problem. And there's always a question of how, like, so we

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can discover something with science,

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but then there's a question of how do we actually like move

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from point A to point B?

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And that's where I find spiritual practices incredibly helpful.

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Would you classify yourself as

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religious? Yes. Great. What is the perspective you bring to

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this conversation? And what's the

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lived experience, the academia that lends itself to that

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perspective? Yeah, there's a whole

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bunch of that fitting it. And I relate to a lot, what you're

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saying a lot about people's challenges.

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Now what's interesting to me about this whole discussion, since

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I'm a Christian, and I understand

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the world from a theistic perspective, because I think it's the

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best explanation for the way

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things are just to give a definition to that. Theistic, what

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does that mean? A personal God, a good,

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there is a personal God who is involved with the world. He made

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the world and he still maintains

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activity as opposed to deistic, which just wound up the clock

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and let it go. Okay. So my view is

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God is still involved. In fact, so involved that he actually

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came to earth in the person of Jesus of

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Nazareth to create a rescue plan. Now what's interesting to me

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about this broader question we can

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get in more details too, is that it's not if there is a God who

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made the world for a purpose

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with meaning, people can participate in that meaning and

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purpose even if they don't know God.

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They're not, they won't be experiencing what they're made for,

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which is to be in friendship with

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Him with the plan that He's made for their flourishing, but

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they still can flourish in some measure

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insofar as they touch on these objective features. But insofar

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as we are able, even without belief

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in God to kind of get in that groove, the things that God made

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us for, the purposes that He

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intends in light of being made like Him in some way in His

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image, there's going to be measure of

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satisfaction, but what they'll be missing is the ultimate, and

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that is that friendship with God

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and being restored in that. Alex. Same question for you about

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what you bring to this

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conversation in terms of your perspective, your experience and

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maybe some of your personal journey.

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Well, for my own part, I was quite swept up in the new atheism

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movement, which was a mid 2000s

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publishing phenomenon with the likes of the Dawkins and the hit

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chens of the world, saying that religion

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is evil and terrible. And I think promising an alternative, a

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kind of secular, puminist utopia that

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if you're learning throw off these oppressive religious systems

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, you will regain your spiritual autonomy

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and be able to assert yourself and the intrinsic meaning that

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you have within yourself.

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People tried that and it didn't seem to work. And I think that

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's because the new atheist movement

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was quite philosophically shallow. It didn't seriously engage

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with the existential component

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of religious belief and why it exists in the first place. And I

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think that is why it exists.

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I think humans are in a strange predicament due to the mystery

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of consciousness.

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We find ourselves possibly uniquely amongst other animals in a

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position of being mortal,

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being physically embodied, being in a world, but also knowing

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those things. There's one thing to

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experience the world. It's one thing to be, it's another thing

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to be aware that you're experiencing it.

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Josh Rasmussen once said, there's a difference between noticing

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a tree and noticing that you've

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noticed a tree. We have this sort of second order abstraction

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that we can do. So we know that

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death is coming, for example, and death makes a mockery of

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everything that we do. It seems to just

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obliterate any sense of purpose or meaning because anything

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that we're building will ultimately as far

258
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as we're concerned be gone. And that may well be unique to

259
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human beings. And so I'm not the first to

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suggest that the principal motivating factor behind meaning

261
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infused activities that humans do

262
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is an engagement in death denial or some kind of immortality

263
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project. People literally

264
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for fear of, as a result of the knowledge that this will come

265
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to an end, engage in what we might call

266
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immortality projects. They engage in things which will outlast

267
00:11:47.180 --> 00:11:49.760
themselves, which give them a sense

268
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of escaping this death. The most obvious example is in

269
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religious traditions, which literally

270
00:11:54.800 --> 00:11:57.700
promise immortality for your own soul. But if you look just

271
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practically at where people

272
00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:02.610
subjectively report finding meaning, they find it in their

273
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children. They might find it in their

274
00:12:04.880 --> 00:12:07.100
job, but they're unlikely to find it in their job if they're

275
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doing something they don't really

276
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care about. They'll find it in their job. Maybe they're a,

277
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maybe they're like a barrister,

278
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and they find a lot of meaning and bringing justice into the

279
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world because they're participating

280
00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.550
in a system which they believe will outlast them and is bigger

281
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than them. So when people talk

282
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about meaning, we talk about transcendence, you know, something

283
00:12:22.300 --> 00:12:24.560
being above and beyond their own

284
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sort of material situation. And I think religion is the archety

285
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pal example of this. And I think it's

286
00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:36.540
why it evolves in the first place. There is this idea that we

287
00:12:36.540 --> 00:12:39.120
are living in a meaning crisis that

288
00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:42.020
has cropped up maybe in the past hundred years or so, or maybe

289
00:12:42.020 --> 00:12:43.760
in the last few hundred years or so

290
00:12:43.760 --> 00:12:46.320
as a response to the enlightenment and the decline of religion.

291
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:48.000
I think that's far too easy. I think

292
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:51.000
it's way too easy. I think that if there is such things as a

293
00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:52.800
meaning crisis, it is literally

294
00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:55.070
the human condition and the reason why these projects were

295
00:12:55.070 --> 00:12:56.640
invented in the first place. I think

296
00:12:56.640 --> 00:13:00.490
literally speaking what people are doing in religious

297
00:13:00.490 --> 00:13:03.280
traditions is realizing the finnitude of their

298
00:13:03.280 --> 00:13:05.940
existence and therefore trying to commune with something. Can I

299
00:13:05.940 --> 00:13:07.840
add a thought? That's fine. Of course.

300
00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:13.110
We have this hunger. I have no reason to believe that any

301
00:13:13.110 --> 00:13:16.000
naturalistic explanation can explain

302
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.270
the consciousness is hunger for meaning and significance. That

303
00:13:20.270 --> 00:13:22.400
's all propositional. It's not

304
00:13:22.400 --> 00:13:26.120
molecules in motion. What's naturalistic mean? Naturalistic

305
00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:29.680
just means nature and that's all there is

306
00:13:29.680 --> 00:13:34.630
basically. So you have molecules in motion largely governed by

307
00:13:34.630 --> 00:13:37.040
natural law. There is no outside

308
00:13:37.040 --> 00:13:40.210
transcendent anything. There's no immaterial anything.

309
00:13:40.210 --> 00:13:42.320
Certainly not an immaterial God that has

310
00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:46.590
started the process of sustains the process and gives life

311
00:13:46.590 --> 00:13:48.960
meaning. There either is meaning

312
00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:54.320
objectively or not. Okay. If not, then it's up to us. For

313
00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:55.840
example, a moment ago you said

314
00:13:55.840 --> 00:14:00.500
that if there is a created God who brings us into existence,

315
00:14:00.500 --> 00:14:02.480
then you are designed and you are

316
00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:06.390
given purpose by God. And I think we need to investigate this a

317
00:14:06.390 --> 00:14:10.080
bit further. Because, for example,

318
00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:13.810
a quiet sort of boring and over at the moment is the extent to

319
00:14:13.810 --> 00:14:16.000
which we are engaged in the production

320
00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.160
of potentially artificially conscious agents with artificial

321
00:14:20.160 --> 00:14:22.400
intelligence technologies. And there's

322
00:14:22.400 --> 00:14:24.560
all this discussion about whether or not these things can be

323
00:14:24.560 --> 00:14:26.480
conscious, like, you know, whatever.

324
00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:29.010
Let's just suppose from a moment that they were. Let's suppose

325
00:14:29.010 --> 00:14:30.240
that I created an artificially

326
00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.410
intelligent machine and I gave it a purpose and that purpose

327
00:14:33.410 --> 00:14:34.880
was to produce paperclips.

328
00:14:34.880 --> 00:14:39.040
And because of the development of artificial intelligence

329
00:14:39.040 --> 00:14:41.360
technology, it became conscious in a

330
00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.780
recognizable sense. It had an interior sense of self. It sort

331
00:14:45.780 --> 00:14:48.000
of had say feelings or emotions about the

332
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.020
world. But it is just an AI robot whose entire purpose in life

333
00:14:52.020 --> 00:14:55.520
is to make paperclips. Now, I could say

334
00:14:55.520 --> 00:14:59.390
that because that AI was designed by a creator with a purpose

335
00:14:59.390 --> 00:15:01.680
that was explicitly given to it,

336
00:15:01.680 --> 00:15:04.570
that that life is meaningful. But I think it would seem to most

337
00:15:04.570 --> 00:15:06.080
people that a life whose meaning

338
00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:12.020
consists in creating paperclips is not sufficient. It's not

339
00:15:12.020 --> 00:15:15.040
enough to address what people really want.

340
00:15:15.040 --> 00:15:18.820
It's not just some kind of purpose. It's not just even some

341
00:15:18.820 --> 00:15:20.800
kind of purpose which is given to

342
00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:23.960
you by an authoritative creative source. It's something which

343
00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:25.120
is further than that.

344
00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:28.020
Yeah. But if I can just relate this to the God question, the

345
00:15:28.020 --> 00:15:30.240
problem that arises is that you have to

346
00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:33.090
answer the question of why God infuses life with the meaning

347
00:15:33.090 --> 00:15:35.760
that he gives it. It's either something

348
00:15:35.760 --> 00:15:38.790
which he has sort of arbitrarily plucked up and chosen to

349
00:15:38.790 --> 00:15:40.880
create in which case we have this problem of

350
00:15:40.880 --> 00:15:44.810
arbitraryness or no. Or in fact, there are some reason why God

351
00:15:44.810 --> 00:15:46.480
had to give us a particular kind of

352
00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.640
meaning that's endemic to the human condition that he had no

353
00:15:49.640 --> 00:15:51.200
choice. But for that meaning,

354
00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:54.080
that more important kind of meaning to be given to human life.

355
00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:56.560
But if he was beholden to that,

356
00:15:56.560 --> 00:15:58.820
if he had to give us a particular kind of meaning, it seems

357
00:15:58.820 --> 00:15:59.920
like there's a standard of meaning

358
00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:03.620
which exists outside the God. So I'm not sure, in other words,

359
00:16:03.620 --> 00:16:05.120
the mechanism by which being

360
00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:08.920
created by someone who says this is your purpose would be

361
00:16:08.920 --> 00:16:11.680
fulfilling in the way that people want it to be.

362
00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:15.550
The reason the paper clip illustration doesn't match is because

363
00:16:15.550 --> 00:16:16.640
it seems to me that

364
00:16:16.640 --> 00:16:20.730
you're subtly taking the thing that's conscious that makes

365
00:16:20.730 --> 00:16:22.800
paper clips and comparing it to a human

366
00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:26.020
being. And for human beings who seem to have a different

367
00:16:26.020 --> 00:16:27.440
purpose, I would argue,

368
00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:30.650
be consigned to make paper clips. Well, that's dehumanizing to

369
00:16:30.650 --> 00:16:33.120
them. But if you have just to follow

370
00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.580
your illustration, if you have a creator that makes something

371
00:16:36.580 --> 00:16:39.360
for a reason that the creator has in mind,

372
00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:42.910
then it's fulfilling its purpose perfectly. You know, for a

373
00:16:42.910 --> 00:16:45.120
human being, that's not going to be

374
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.670
satisfying making paper clips. And a lot of people who are

375
00:16:47.670 --> 00:16:49.280
making paper clips are not satisfied

376
00:16:49.280 --> 00:16:52.630
with it. Okay. I don't think it's arbitrary if God is making

377
00:16:52.630 --> 00:16:54.080
something for a purpose.

378
00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.920
If God decides that he wants to make creatures to be in

379
00:16:57.920 --> 00:16:59.520
friendship with him,

380
00:17:00.160 --> 00:17:04.530
because this reflects his loving character. And that purpose is

381
00:17:04.530 --> 00:17:07.040
to be in friendship with him.

382
00:17:07.040 --> 00:17:11.130
I don't see how that is somehow negligible or arbitrary at all.

383
00:17:11.130 --> 00:17:12.160
I guess you could have said that

384
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.890
God could have done otherwise, but his love and desire for

385
00:17:15.890 --> 00:17:18.720
communion is seemed to me an adequate

386
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.950
explanation for that. This is fascinating. So my first question

387
00:17:22.950 --> 00:17:25.760
is, what's the point of this conversation?

388
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.900
Yeah. So I think that the ultimate answer that we're looking

389
00:17:31.900 --> 00:17:33.920
for is it appears that the numbers

390
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:36.470
are on purpose and meaning of fluctuating at this moment in

391
00:17:36.470 --> 00:17:38.400
time. A lot of people are turning back

392
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.030
to religion as Alex is, we were just chatting about a second

393
00:17:41.030 --> 00:17:43.600
ago. And I guess there's two questions,

394
00:17:43.600 --> 00:17:46.380
which is one understanding why that's happening. Why there's

395
00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:47.680
this fluctuation, why we're seeing

396
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:50.840
a mental health crisis around purpose and meaning. And the

397
00:17:50.840 --> 00:17:52.400
second is to try and figure out if

398
00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.610
there's a truth one can arrive at. If there's an objective

399
00:17:55.610 --> 00:17:58.720
truth, that exists. So for y'all,

400
00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:02.020
I'm curious when y'all show up here, like what is the purpose

401
00:18:02.020 --> 00:18:03.440
for y'all showing up?

402
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:08.000
It's literally trying to discover like it's the stated purpose.

403
00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:09.680
It's literally just artificially

404
00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.330
given purpose by being designed in a particular way. We're

405
00:18:12.330 --> 00:18:13.760
going to get together and we're going

406
00:18:13.760 --> 00:18:16.930
to have a conversation and see if we can figure out this this

407
00:18:16.930 --> 00:18:19.520
meaning stuff. Right. And by the way,

408
00:18:19.520 --> 00:18:21.940
like we're not going to solve that problem. I think it's worth

409
00:18:21.940 --> 00:18:23.920
pointing out that like these

410
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:27.090
conversations have to be exploratory and subjective. If anybody

411
00:18:27.090 --> 00:18:29.120
thinks that the four of us out

412
00:18:29.120 --> 00:18:31.670
at this table are going to solve the meaning crisis and give

413
00:18:31.670 --> 00:18:33.040
people a five step guide finding

414
00:18:33.040 --> 00:18:35.320
meaning in their life and that'll be the sort of case closed,

415
00:18:35.320 --> 00:18:37.040
then they're delusional. I don't know

416
00:18:37.040 --> 00:18:41.200
if I agree that we can't find an answer, but we'll talk. Well,

417
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:42.400
this is what I want to speak to

418
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:46.030
it if, um, obviously we're talking about this broader issue of

419
00:18:46.030 --> 00:18:48.000
meaning and purpose or right.

420
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.980
And as I mentioned earlier, there either is an objective one or

421
00:18:50.980 --> 00:18:52.640
it's only subjective. Okay,

422
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:54.950
if it is an objective one, this is about the most important

423
00:18:54.950 --> 00:18:56.400
thing that anyone can ever find

424
00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.760
out about their life if they were created for a reason. In my

425
00:18:59.760 --> 00:19:00.960
view, the reason I'm here is

426
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.600
because I'm convinced that that's the case and I'm willing to

427
00:19:03.600 --> 00:19:06.080
give reasons why. Okay, but I don't

428
00:19:06.080 --> 00:19:09.780
think I'm sympathetic to the concern that you can't sit around

429
00:19:09.780 --> 00:19:11.920
a table and in two or three hours

430
00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:16.100
solve the problem for any individual because people going

431
00:19:16.100 --> 00:19:18.000
through the process of trying to figure

432
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.610
these things out. It takes a long time as they put the pieces

433
00:19:21.610 --> 00:19:23.440
together, but I think there's a

434
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:25.250
lot of people in the world that think how they have put it

435
00:19:25.250 --> 00:19:26.320
together and they've come to

436
00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:29.260
conclusions about ultimate meaning and purpose and they don't

437
00:19:29.260 --> 00:19:30.560
come to my own conclusions,

438
00:19:30.560 --> 00:19:34.290
but many how. So what I would hate to do is leave people with a

439
00:19:34.290 --> 00:19:36.960
feeling like we can all search

440
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:39.960
and the glory is in the search, but if you think you found the

441
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:41.840
answer, then you have. Of course,

442
00:19:41.840 --> 00:19:44.670
this to me is a nihilistic enterprise, then I think it's

443
00:19:44.670 --> 00:19:46.400
possible to come to conclusions.

444
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.700
Yes, I think so too to be clear, but I think what I'm trying to

445
00:19:49.700 --> 00:19:50.640
say is this will be something that

446
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:53.040
one will experience for themselves and will discover for

447
00:19:53.040 --> 00:19:54.640
themselves in their own life. It's not

448
00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:58.060
going to be something that, you know, that's that old, is it l

449
00:19:58.060 --> 00:19:59.760
inchy, the sort of the Buddhist

450
00:19:59.760 --> 00:20:03.410
Cohen that says if you meet the Buddha, kill him, the idea

451
00:20:03.410 --> 00:20:06.320
being that, you know, if you think that

452
00:20:06.320 --> 00:20:09.490
the kind of enlightenment, which is necessary to spiritual

453
00:20:09.490 --> 00:20:11.280
fulfillment can be found through some

454
00:20:11.280 --> 00:20:14.290
kind of guru, you're missing the mark. It's something that you

455
00:20:14.290 --> 00:20:15.600
need to do for yourself.

456
00:20:15.600 --> 00:20:18.310
But doesn't that statement as self meant to be a truth about

457
00:20:18.310 --> 00:20:19.920
spirituality that you can actually

458
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:22.950
count on? Can I jump in? I just want to make sure I understand

459
00:20:22.950 --> 00:20:24.480
y'all's points. So you're saying that

460
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:28.040
the search for purpose, first of all, is never going to go away

461
00:20:28.040 --> 00:20:30.320
. Like, is a human condition, right?

462
00:20:30.320 --> 00:20:34.330
Yes. Like, so as humanity, humanity will never find its purpose

463
00:20:34.330 --> 00:20:35.760
. I can tell you why, if you like.

464
00:20:35.760 --> 00:20:38.170
No, no, I don't even know why. Yeah, I think, I think

465
00:20:38.170 --> 00:20:40.080
individuals can, but humanity,

466
00:20:40.080 --> 00:20:42.960
that's always, yeah, I'm just making sure I understand, right?

467
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:44.400
So an individual can find

468
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.960
their purpose, but as humanity, it's never going to be solved.

469
00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:49.920
And then you said something about

470
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:55.810
purpose being tied to opposing to death in some way. So transc

471
00:20:55.810 --> 00:20:57.280
ending death that human beings

472
00:20:57.280 --> 00:21:01.940
basically look for purpose because death is inevitable. And if

473
00:21:01.940 --> 00:21:03.680
we can find purpose, then we can

474
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:07.060
give our life meaning. But if death, if we die, and I don't

475
00:21:07.060 --> 00:21:09.040
leave something behind, can you talk

476
00:21:09.040 --> 00:21:12.070
a little bit about that? This is essentially a version of

477
00:21:12.070 --> 00:21:14.960
Ernest Becker's denial of death hypothesis,

478
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.560
which famously suggests that the motivation for a great deal of

479
00:21:18.560 --> 00:21:21.440
human behavior is at least human

480
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:25.360
behavior outside of immediate sensory concerns, like eating and

481
00:21:25.360 --> 00:21:26.960
stuff like that, anything that

482
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.390
human engagement on societal level on an abstract level is

483
00:21:30.390 --> 00:21:32.720
ultimately motivated by an apprehension

484
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:35.640
of death. I think that's probably too simple, but it's

485
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:37.680
definitely a contributing factor.

486
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:41.190
I think that for example, put it this way, right? Here's an

487
00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:42.640
example that comes from,

488
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:44.570
I think it's named Sheffler, and he has this interesting

489
00:21:44.570 --> 00:21:46.080
thought experiment. Suppose,

490
00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:48.990
I don't know, maybe you're engaged in writing a book. Suppose

491
00:21:48.990 --> 00:21:50.480
you discovered, and this probably

492
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:52.380
won't be the case for you because you believe in an afterlife,

493
00:21:52.380 --> 00:21:53.600
but suppose that you're an atheist

494
00:21:53.600 --> 00:21:58.150
for a moment. Suppose it were the case that you discovered that

495
00:21:58.150 --> 00:21:59.280
after you die,

496
00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:01.360
a meteor is going to come and wipe out all life on earth.

497
00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:02.720
Everybody's going to die almost

498
00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:04.950
instantly after you do, but you'll be dead. So you will live

499
00:22:04.950 --> 00:22:06.560
your entire life as it was anyway. And

500
00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:08.210
suppose the rest of the world doesn't even know this is going

501
00:22:08.210 --> 00:22:10.160
to happen, but you're told this is going

502
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.960
to be the case. Would that motivate you to write your book more

503
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.440
or less? Most people say that it

504
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.420
would seem a bit pointless now, either what's the point now in

505
00:22:18.420 --> 00:22:20.240
writing this book? What's the point

506
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:22.980
in having children if they're going to die 30 days after I'm

507
00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:24.160
going on? What's the point

508
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:26.050
in doing any of these things? What will they still do? They'll

509
00:22:26.050 --> 00:22:27.200
still do the centuries after they'll

510
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:29.750
eat, they'll still have sex, they'll still sleep, this kind of

511
00:22:29.750 --> 00:22:32.320
stuff. But the typically meaning

512
00:22:32.320 --> 00:22:36.120
laden activities of life, they would certainly be demotivated

513
00:22:36.120 --> 00:22:37.200
to do. And it's an interesting

514
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.620
thought experiment to give us some insight as to the fact that,

515
00:22:40.620 --> 00:22:42.960
well, maybe this means that, at least in

516
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:45.120
part, the motivation for these actors in the first place is

517
00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:46.800
that they will extend beyond data.

518
00:22:46.800 --> 00:22:50.180
I agree with so much of which I'll say, and I also like hard

519
00:22:50.180 --> 00:22:52.240
disagree with some of the fundamentals.

520
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.480
So let's say you have this example of like, I'm right a book

521
00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:58.000
and then the world is going to end 30

522
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.530
days later. And so you say, because a lot of what you're

523
00:23:00.530 --> 00:23:02.640
talking about is like what people say,

524
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.470
right? So you'll say like, okay, so like people would say that

525
00:23:06.470 --> 00:23:08.240
this is a waste of time,

526
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.140
and I'm not going to do it if the world ends in 30 days. And

527
00:23:11.140 --> 00:23:13.120
you're also saying people

528
00:23:13.120 --> 00:23:17.640
is an everlasting thing or struggling with purpose, right? You

529
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.680
're saying both of these things.

530
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:22.450
So here's my question to you. If you tell someone, you know,

531
00:23:22.450 --> 00:23:23.680
you're writing this book,

532
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.100
let's say you write it and then you die because we'll simplify

533
00:23:27.100 --> 00:23:28.800
the example. And then 30 days later,

534
00:23:28.800 --> 00:23:32.720
the world ends. Let's take two people. One who says, I'm a

535
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.960
right at any way. And one who says,

536
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.730
there's no point, which one of those two people do you think

537
00:23:38.730 --> 00:23:41.120
has a greater sense of purpose?

538
00:23:41.120 --> 00:23:44.000
Probably the form. Absolutely. So this is the key thing.

539
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.760
Purpose is absolutely because I love that

540
00:23:47.760 --> 00:23:50.590
you're asking about mechanisms. And I think maybe that's what I

541
00:23:50.590 --> 00:23:52.320
can provide. I think that's

542
00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:55.750
that's actually the answer, right? So it's not that people

543
00:23:55.750 --> 00:23:57.200
believe, and I think you're right,

544
00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:00.760
that the reason that this is a perennial problem is because

545
00:24:00.760 --> 00:24:02.560
most people do not live a life

546
00:24:02.560 --> 00:24:05.730
where they understand how purpose works. And what I think is

547
00:24:05.730 --> 00:24:07.520
really fascinating about

548
00:24:07.520 --> 00:24:10.760
sort of like this scientific clinical approach, like if you ask

549
00:24:10.760 --> 00:24:12.720
me, can I help people

550
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:17.700
find meaning and purpose? I don't know. But if you ask me, can

551
00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:19.200
I help a person? The answer is

552
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:23.570
absolutely. And we have like particular scientific things. And

553
00:24:23.570 --> 00:24:24.960
this is where it's really

554
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.660
counterintuitive. So a big part of like finding purpose is

555
00:24:28.660 --> 00:24:31.040
doing particular things. And if you do those

556
00:24:31.040 --> 00:24:34.210
things, the likelihood that you will increase your sense of

557
00:24:34.210 --> 00:24:35.760
purpose in life, which is another thing

558
00:24:35.760 --> 00:24:39.180
that's very counterintuitive people, purpose is not binary. It

559
00:24:39.180 --> 00:24:41.200
's quantifiable. It's like a scale.

560
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.460
So if I were to ask the three of y'all, right, let's maybe let

561
00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:45.840
's do this, not a thought experiment

562
00:24:45.840 --> 00:24:48.710
with this practical experiment. Do you know your purpose in

563
00:24:48.710 --> 00:24:51.280
life, like how confident are you that

564
00:24:51.280 --> 00:24:53.280
you're doing what you're supposed to be doing in life?

565
00:24:53.280 --> 00:24:56.630
How confident am I about the God part? Or that I'm doing the

566
00:24:56.630 --> 00:24:58.320
things that are appropriate?

567
00:24:58.320 --> 00:25:01.490
How confident are you that you're doing what God wants you to

568
00:25:01.490 --> 00:25:01.840
do?

569
00:25:01.840 --> 00:25:04.530
Well, in that general sense, extremely confident, or else I

570
00:25:04.530 --> 00:25:05.520
wouldn't be doing it.

571
00:25:05.520 --> 00:25:09.040
Perfect, right? So Stephen, what about you, bro?

572
00:25:09.040 --> 00:25:14.080
About five at a time. I knew it. Okay, right. So Alex,

573
00:25:14.080 --> 00:25:16.310
I don't want to be difficult, but I kind of reject the grammar

574
00:25:16.310 --> 00:25:17.040
of the question.

575
00:25:17.040 --> 00:25:19.840
Awesome. Um, Jack away, bro. I think it's what a logician would

576
00:25:19.840 --> 00:25:20.080
cool

577
00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:22.440
an exponable statement, something which needs to be broken down

578
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:24.320
. You asked, "Do I know my own

579
00:25:24.320 --> 00:25:28.050
purpose?" That assumes that there is a purpose to know. It's a

580
00:25:28.050 --> 00:25:29.840
bit like the comparison I would give

581
00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:33.840
is if I asked you the question, the classic example in logic is

582
00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:36.000
, is the king of France bold?

583
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:43.680
Yes, I know. I can rephrase my question. So do you have a lived

584
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:45.600
experience of something called

585
00:25:45.600 --> 00:25:49.170
purpose? Oh, well, look, I think purpose is having some kind of

586
00:25:49.170 --> 00:25:50.560
reason to act or be.

587
00:25:50.560 --> 00:25:54.530
Yeah. And I certainly subjectively am motivated to do things. I

588
00:25:54.530 --> 00:25:55.360
think everybody is,

589
00:25:55.360 --> 00:25:58.160
otherwise you literally wouldn't be able to do anything. But it

590
00:25:58.160 --> 00:25:59.840
's a bit foggy to me what

591
00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:02.370
psychologically speaking on a personal level, that fundamental

592
00:26:02.370 --> 00:26:03.440
motivation actually is.

593
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.420
Wouldn't your purpose be more the goal rather than the reason

594
00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:08.720
to act, what you're trying to

595
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.930
accomplish? It's a semantic thing, but that's why it depends

596
00:26:11.930 --> 00:26:12.800
what you mean by the way.

597
00:26:12.800 --> 00:26:16.960
I'm with you. I'm with you. So I don't know what I mean with

598
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:18.080
the word purpose, which is part of

599
00:26:18.080 --> 00:26:22.970
this challenge. So I'm just wondering. So a lot of people are

600
00:26:22.970 --> 00:26:24.800
motivated to act. Everyone is

601
00:26:24.800 --> 00:26:27.540
motivated to act every day. I get out of bed. I need to take a

602
00:26:27.540 --> 00:26:31.600
dump. But my guess is that if we were

603
00:26:31.600 --> 00:26:37.060
to administer a scientifically validated instrument that

604
00:26:37.060 --> 00:26:40.880
measures your subjective sense of purpose

605
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:44.970
direction in life, that that would be north of five out of 10.

606
00:26:44.970 --> 00:26:47.920
Okay. Do you think that's fair or is

607
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:50.880
that something that you don't maybe? Yeah. I don't know. Like,

608
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:52.960
do you, do you wake up? Do you feel

609
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:55.320
like you're no, you know what you want to do and what's going

610
00:26:55.320 --> 00:26:56.800
on and you're like doing good work?

611
00:26:56.800 --> 00:26:59.020
Like, I'm asking about the subjective. Not on a grand sense. I

612
00:26:59.020 --> 00:27:00.960
'm quite agnostic. I mean, I'm sort of

613
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:03.720
I'm not talking about, okay, maybe I spent a really great,

614
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:06.640
great, great, perfect. So, so not on a

615
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:10.840
grand sense, but on some other sense. Yes, sure. Okay, great.

616
00:27:10.840 --> 00:27:13.120
So I think that this is like, this is,

617
00:27:13.120 --> 00:27:16.130
I think this is beautiful because I think what we have here is

618
00:27:16.130 --> 00:27:18.000
like, not on a grand sense. So I

619
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.010
think on a grand sense, you're there. Right. Right. But you're

620
00:27:21.010 --> 00:27:22.800
absolutely motivated by particular

621
00:27:22.800 --> 00:27:25.960
things. So I think this is the first thing about purpose. Can a

622
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:28.320
clarification real. Sure. Yeah,

623
00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:30.870
on a grand sense, yes, but there are distinctions that you were

624
00:27:30.870 --> 00:27:32.640
referring to a few moments ago. Great.

625
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.040
There are a lot of things that are just satisfying in my life.

626
00:27:35.040 --> 00:27:36.560
But in terms of being on the right

627
00:27:36.560 --> 00:27:40.210
course, that's part of what life is. Being on the right course,

628
00:27:40.210 --> 00:27:41.520
lots of crazy stuff that's

629
00:27:41.520 --> 00:27:45.310
happening in between. Cool. So like, like the first thing that

630
00:27:45.310 --> 00:27:47.280
I've kind of noticed in my work

631
00:27:47.280 --> 00:27:52.000
is that I don't know whether a grand or purpose exists or not.

632
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:52.960
I think that's a lovely

633
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:55.510
discussion that I want to continue to have with you, but I'm

634
00:27:55.510 --> 00:27:56.640
sort of, here's where I'm sort of

635
00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.540
coming from in this discussion. Steven started this out with

636
00:27:59.540 --> 00:28:01.040
some really scary statistics that

637
00:28:01.040 --> 00:28:03.890
we're seeing, right? There's a mental health crisis. I think a

638
00:28:03.890 --> 00:28:05.600
lot of what we're seeing is,

639
00:28:05.600 --> 00:28:08.490
is while it may be perennial, I think it's like seems more

640
00:28:08.490 --> 00:28:10.640
acute right now. Yes. Maybe that's

641
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.810
because of the atheist materialism, whatever. I'm not quite

642
00:28:13.810 --> 00:28:15.840
sure, but this is a problem. So just

643
00:28:15.840 --> 00:28:19.030
sharing where I'm coming from. My hope is that someone who is

644
00:28:19.030 --> 00:28:22.160
watching this will have moved forward

645
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:25.670
some vague percentage points. I'm shooting for about 20% in

646
00:28:25.670 --> 00:28:27.520
their personal quest for purpose.

647
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:32.130
And I think a big part of what I'm going to try to contribute

648
00:28:32.130 --> 00:28:34.320
here today is my understanding of

649
00:28:34.320 --> 00:28:38.020
like how to do that, that this is a quantifiable thing that we

650
00:28:38.020 --> 00:28:39.760
can sort of see at this table,

651
00:28:39.760 --> 00:28:44.360
people are sort of like at different places. And so the first

652
00:28:44.360 --> 00:28:46.880
thing that I kind of want to point out

653
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:51.070
is I don't know whether there's purpose or not, but as a human

654
00:28:51.070 --> 00:28:51.920
condition,

655
00:28:53.760 --> 00:28:58.550
there is something that each of us feel or experience that

656
00:28:58.550 --> 00:29:00.880
gives us an answer, right? So you're

657
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:04.050
like at 10, but what that means is that something is going on

658
00:29:04.050 --> 00:29:05.840
in your mind, something is going on in

659
00:29:05.840 --> 00:29:08.610
your heart, something is going on in your body where you wake

660
00:29:08.610 --> 00:29:10.320
up and you feel like you have purpose.

661
00:29:10.320 --> 00:29:13.160
Steven wakes up and he's like at a five out of 10. So he's

662
00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:15.040
getting some signals in that area,

663
00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:17.820
some signals and all that matter area. You have some signals in

664
00:29:17.820 --> 00:29:19.360
that direction too. You know why

665
00:29:19.360 --> 00:29:21.440
you're showing up at this podcast. You've got a book that you

666
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:22.960
're working on. Awesome. Can't wait to

667
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.610
read it. But on a grander sense, you're like, I don't know

668
00:29:25.610 --> 00:29:27.600
about this like objective stuff or whatever.

669
00:29:27.600 --> 00:29:30.560
So this is sort of like this quantifiable thing. And you.

670
00:29:30.560 --> 00:29:33.440
I'm going to let you all guess.

671
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.520
Where would you put me at? I don't like to psychologize people.

672
00:29:37.520 --> 00:29:42.860
It's okay if you don't like to know you. I just met you. I don

673
00:29:42.860 --> 00:29:45.120
't know. I have no idea what

674
00:29:45.120 --> 00:29:47.440
what sense of meaning you have in your life.

675
00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:53.320
Okay, I mean, for me, I'm just motivated to try and find out.

676
00:29:53.320 --> 00:29:55.120
So I think I think the audience can

677
00:29:55.120 --> 00:29:57.770
guess too. Yeah, I would say you're pretty high. That's where

678
00:29:57.770 --> 00:29:59.280
you're here. That's where you're

679
00:29:59.280 --> 00:30:02.720
articulating your ideas. Probably, probably closer to 10 and

680
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:05.600
five. Yeah, right. So it's like,

681
00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:08.510
it's okay if you don't want to do that because I'm guessing

682
00:30:08.510 --> 00:30:10.080
that there are certain things in your

683
00:30:10.080 --> 00:30:13.600
intellect that tell you. So do you have a subjective instinct?

684
00:30:13.600 --> 00:30:15.680
No, I just don't know you that well.

685
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.640
I mean, I don't know. And also it depends what you mean, right?

686
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:20.000
Because you'll say that you have a

687
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:22.930
if you say that you're a 10, like you have this, this, there's

688
00:30:22.930 --> 00:30:23.920
this, you use the phrase

689
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:25.940
earlier sense, a sense of meaning in life. And because you're

690
00:30:25.940 --> 00:30:27.600
talking about this from an empirical

691
00:30:27.600 --> 00:30:31.600
standpoint of whether people report having a sense of meaning,

692
00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:33.280
whereas I think that Greg is probably

693
00:30:33.280 --> 00:30:37.180
talking about literally speaking, whether there is actually, in

694
00:30:37.180 --> 00:30:38.640
fact, a real meaning,

695
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:41.190
whether or not people sense it or not, you could say that you

696
00:30:41.190 --> 00:30:43.040
have a 10 out of 10 and Greg could say,

697
00:30:43.040 --> 00:30:45.950
well, that's great that you feel that way, but it's misguided

698
00:30:45.950 --> 00:30:47.440
because the purpose that you have

699
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.970
identified in your life is the wrong one. And so to me, the

700
00:30:49.970 --> 00:30:52.160
important question is not so much

701
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:54.810
whether you subjectively report feeling like you have purpose

702
00:30:54.810 --> 00:30:56.480
in life, but whether that purpose is

703
00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:00.660
grounded in something real and true. Yeah. So I think that your

704
00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:03.920
answer right now is the reason why you

705
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.120
think some of these questions are unanswerable. So I think if

706
00:31:07.120 --> 00:31:10.480
you adopt that frame, you'll never

707
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:17.220
know, but let me just finish. Okay. So my first experience of

708
00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.960
this, right, is that first of all,

709
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.140
there is a subjective barometer like how do we know whether we

710
00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:24.960
have purpose? Maybe we listen to

711
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:28.270
other people, but there is some sort of internal sense of this.

712
00:31:28.270 --> 00:31:29.680
And this is where the science

713
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.070
becomes really important because if you look at people who have

714
00:31:32.070 --> 00:31:33.200
like a history of trauma or

715
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:35.870
something, what you tend to find is that there are certain like

716
00:31:35.870 --> 00:31:37.280
neurobiological things that can

717
00:31:37.280 --> 00:31:41.370
happen to you, that will literally affect the parts of your

718
00:31:41.370 --> 00:31:43.840
brain that are able to detect purpose.

719
00:31:43.840 --> 00:31:47.460
So this is sort of like a subjective experience. And I think

720
00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:49.840
the way that, and I love your emphasis

721
00:31:49.840 --> 00:31:52.580
on mechanism, and I think this is what, in my opinion, science

722
00:31:52.580 --> 00:31:54.160
and spirituality can really add

723
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:57.410
as they add the how, right? They add like, why is it that one

724
00:31:57.410 --> 00:31:59.360
person has purpose and another person

725
00:31:59.360 --> 00:32:02.700
doesn't have purpose? So first thing is that in my experience

726
00:32:02.700 --> 00:32:04.080
in the way that I operate,

727
00:32:04.080 --> 00:32:07.700
I'm not saying it's correct, it's just, it's effective in terms

728
00:32:07.700 --> 00:32:09.760
of helping people move the needle

729
00:32:09.760 --> 00:32:13.920
on reducing suicidality, improving resilience, giving them a

730
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:15.360
reason to wake up in the morning,

731
00:32:15.360 --> 00:32:18.840
like it tends to work. And it's not just me, it's that there's

732
00:32:18.840 --> 00:32:20.880
a bunch of methodologies that we

733
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:23.770
have in psychotherapy and stuff like that that accomplish these

734
00:32:23.770 --> 00:32:25.200
kinds of things, that there's some

735
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:29.360
internal sense of purpose. Now, what I think surprises a lot of

736
00:32:29.360 --> 00:32:31.360
people is that there are two ways

737
00:32:31.360 --> 00:32:35.180
that you increase that sense of purpose. The first is a bucket

738
00:32:35.180 --> 00:32:37.600
of things that are kind of counter

739
00:32:37.600 --> 00:32:40.500
intuitive. And this is where we also have to understand that

740
00:32:40.500 --> 00:32:43.440
purpose correlates with certain

741
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:47.410
other things in life. So if I feel like I am in control of my

742
00:32:47.410 --> 00:32:50.960
life, then my sense of purpose

743
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:53.990
will increase. Those two things are correlated. It's not clear

744
00:32:53.990 --> 00:32:55.920
whether it's one thing that manifests

745
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:58.820
in two ways or it's probably two discrete things because there

746
00:32:58.820 --> 00:33:00.640
's some subtlety there. But just

747
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.060
as a very simple example, if you take someone who feels out of

748
00:33:04.060 --> 00:33:06.160
control in life and you help them

749
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:09.330
get control of their life and there's a really great example of

750
00:33:09.330 --> 00:33:10.400
this, which is something called

751
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:13.260
passive challenges versus active challenges. So there's a

752
00:33:13.260 --> 00:33:15.360
fascinating research on anxiety that shows

753
00:33:15.360 --> 00:33:18.840
that if you're someone in life whose life is happening to you,

754
00:33:18.840 --> 00:33:20.480
like you wake up one day and then

755
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:23.010
like your boss wants you to come in for work and you have to

756
00:33:23.010 --> 00:33:24.560
pay rent at the end of the month and

757
00:33:24.560 --> 00:33:27.470
like you're logging on to Tinder and people aren't responding

758
00:33:27.470 --> 00:33:30.640
to you, life is controlling the

759
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:34.490
direction that you move. And people feel overwhelmed by this

760
00:33:34.490 --> 00:33:37.040
and they want freedom, they want control,

761
00:33:37.040 --> 00:33:40.200
what they end up doing is they wish that they didn't have these

762
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:41.680
things. So they run away from

763
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:46.560
these problems. So passive challenges are challenges that life

764
00:33:46.560 --> 00:33:48.480
imposes upon you that you didn't

765
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.420
sign up for. Then there's something really fascinating, which

766
00:33:52.420 --> 00:33:54.480
is your sense of control in life

767
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:57.650
does not correlate just with the passive challenges. It

768
00:33:57.650 --> 00:34:01.360
correlates with the ratio of passive challenges

769
00:34:01.360 --> 00:34:04.530
to active challenges, active challenges are things that you

770
00:34:04.530 --> 00:34:06.240
choose to do that are difficult.

771
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:10.100
So this is really fascinating, but if you're getting bodied by

772
00:34:10.100 --> 00:34:12.080
life in three different directions,

773
00:34:12.080 --> 00:34:14.950
the solution to that is not run away from those problems. It's

774
00:34:14.950 --> 00:34:16.720
actually to wake up and start to

775
00:34:17.600 --> 00:34:20.500
push yourself in a particular direction. I want to do this

776
00:34:20.500 --> 00:34:22.240
instead, if you want to learn how to like

777
00:34:22.240 --> 00:34:25.480
read, you know, learn philosophy, you know, start studying

778
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:27.440
philosophical texts, you know, like,

779
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:30.220
is you start to take on more, which is very counterintuitive

780
00:34:30.220 --> 00:34:32.000
because when most people feel

781
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:35.000
overwhelmed, they don't feel like they can do more. The exact

782
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.560
solution is to take on more

783
00:34:36.560 --> 00:34:40.930
active challenges, then you have some sense of control in life.

784
00:34:40.930 --> 00:34:42.640
And once your ratio of active

785
00:34:42.640 --> 00:34:45.500
challenges to passive challenges is more evened out, this does

786
00:34:45.500 --> 00:34:47.200
something really cool. It gives you

787
00:34:47.200 --> 00:34:50.040
a sense that I'm no longer out of control. Once you feel like

788
00:34:50.040 --> 00:34:51.840
you're no longer out of control,

789
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:56.560
this is the really cool thing, then your capacity to deal with

790
00:34:56.560 --> 00:34:58.640
the stuff that life throws at you

791
00:34:58.640 --> 00:35:02.560
actually improves. So there's this, this is just one example of

792
00:35:02.560 --> 00:35:05.360
like one scientific neurobiological

793
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.530
principle that has some psychology associated with where you

794
00:35:08.530 --> 00:35:11.440
can do particular things to give yourself

795
00:35:12.080 --> 00:35:15.250
a sense of direction in life. Now, some of the stuff around

796
00:35:15.250 --> 00:35:17.520
worship and spiritual practice that can do it

797
00:35:17.520 --> 00:35:22.080
too. But I think that usually what I tend to see is that, you

798
00:35:22.080 --> 00:35:24.640
know, if someone is lost in life,

799
00:35:24.640 --> 00:35:27.860
you can sort of answer it by these big questions. You can sort

800
00:35:27.860 --> 00:35:29.280
of think about this sort of

801
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:32.080
transcendental purpose, which I'm happy to talk about. But I

802
00:35:32.080 --> 00:35:33.680
think there's a lot of like little

803
00:35:33.680 --> 00:35:37.610
stuff that you can do. And as you implement these things, the

804
00:35:37.610 --> 00:35:39.760
sense of purpose in your life,

805
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:42.990
your internal lived experience of feeling out of control will

806
00:35:42.990 --> 00:35:43.600
change.

807
00:35:43.600 --> 00:35:46.400
Let me offer a few thoughts if I could. When I want to speak to

808
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:48.240
something that you've said, Alex,

809
00:35:48.240 --> 00:35:51.840
um, that I just want to offer a caution about when we talk

810
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.480
about motivation, the motivation for

811
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:57.880
something we sometimes confuse that with justification. So

812
00:35:57.880 --> 00:35:59.920
someone might say to me, it's an atheist,

813
00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:02.450
for example, well, you're a Christian because you were born in

814
00:36:02.450 --> 00:36:03.920
America. If you were born in

815
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:07.090
Saudi Arabia, you wouldn't be a Christian. You'd be Muslim. Of

816
00:36:07.090 --> 00:36:09.040
course, that's irrelevant to the

817
00:36:09.040 --> 00:36:11.030
question of whether Islam or Christianity or some other

818
00:36:11.030 --> 00:36:12.880
religion is true. It doesn't speak to them.

819
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:16.580
It speaks to psychology. Okay. And the fact is that if the

820
00:36:16.580 --> 00:36:18.480
atheist was born in Saudi Arabia,

821
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.960
it would be an atheist either likely. The key question is what

822
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:23.520
motivates people, for example,

823
00:36:23.520 --> 00:36:26.680
to think about purpose, death may be a fear of death. That

824
00:36:26.680 --> 00:36:28.560
might be a motivation. The question is

825
00:36:28.560 --> 00:36:31.790
whether the place they land in answering the question has any

826
00:36:31.790 --> 00:36:33.520
objective truth to it or not.

827
00:36:33.520 --> 00:36:36.480
It could be that there is a God and that there isn't afterlife.

828
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:38.720
And facing death does give

829
00:36:38.720 --> 00:36:43.270
comfort to that, I should say when facing death, you have

830
00:36:43.270 --> 00:36:45.680
comfort because there is a God and there's

831
00:36:45.680 --> 00:36:48.650
something that you're going to. It's close to communion with

832
00:36:48.650 --> 00:36:50.880
him. Okay. Just because you're motivated

833
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:53.610
by death doesn't mean that you're belief about the afterlife is

834
00:36:53.610 --> 00:36:54.560
somehow an error.

835
00:36:54.560 --> 00:36:58.220
I just want to add something in here. So I think part of the

836
00:36:58.220 --> 00:37:00.880
reason I've also convened you guys

837
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:05.260
have this conversation today is because I've got several people

838
00:37:05.260 --> 00:37:08.560
in my life that I can literally

839
00:37:08.560 --> 00:37:11.550
lay out the personas, but I've got one particular friend who's

840
00:37:11.550 --> 00:37:14.000
35 between 35 and 40 years old,

841
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:17.700
living in Dubai, living in a glass box, freelancer. So he wakes

842
00:37:17.700 --> 00:37:19.680
up in the morning. His bed is there,

843
00:37:19.680 --> 00:37:22.520
he then works there, then goes back to bed. He's single, no

844
00:37:22.520 --> 00:37:24.000
kids. In his life at the moment,

845
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.170
he said to me that he can't get out of bed anymore. He feels

846
00:37:27.170 --> 00:37:29.440
stuck. And then about six months after

847
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:32.300
the blue, it turns out without telling any of us and with his

848
00:37:32.300 --> 00:37:34.080
best friends, he's flown to America,

849
00:37:34.080 --> 00:37:36.510
he's been baptized. He's a Christian. Suddenly his life has

850
00:37:36.510 --> 00:37:38.080
purpose and meaning again. He's a

851
00:37:38.080 --> 00:37:41.420
completely different person. And this individual never ever, he

852
00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:42.880
would be the last person that you'd

853
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:45.680
think would be religious. Got another friend, female just over

854
00:37:45.680 --> 00:37:47.440
30 years old, doesn't have kids,

855
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.480
freelance works at home. When I asked her what her meaning and

856
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:52.000
purpose in life, she said to me,

857
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:55.490
she wants to get to having 200 plants, plants she can water.

858
00:37:55.490 --> 00:37:57.600
She names all of them. She then told me a

859
00:37:57.600 --> 00:38:00.220
week after she's in therapy because she feels lost and stuck in

860
00:38:00.220 --> 00:38:01.840
life. And so much of the central

861
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:05.160
point why I've been motivated to have this conversation is it

862
00:38:05.160 --> 00:38:07.040
appears to me, and I haven't nailed

863
00:38:07.040 --> 00:38:10.930
this hypothesis yet, that freedom, independence, be your own

864
00:38:10.930 --> 00:38:13.120
boss, the decline in people having

865
00:38:13.120 --> 00:38:17.060
children, the glamorization of, as you said at the very

866
00:38:17.060 --> 00:38:19.360
beginning, like, you know, do it yourself,

867
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:23.430
do it your way is failing people in some way. And then actually

868
00:38:23.430 --> 00:38:26.560
the push for independence was in some

869
00:38:26.560 --> 00:38:29.730
way, some kind of lie. I actually also went through the same

870
00:38:29.730 --> 00:38:33.040
new atheist baptism, but you went through,

871
00:38:33.040 --> 00:38:36.290
and I read all those books 18 years old and I was debating dog

872
00:38:36.290 --> 00:38:37.920
walkers on the street about God,

873
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:40.720
I was so, yeah, such a staunch atheist. But I now find myself

874
00:38:40.720 --> 00:38:43.520
in a position where I'm almost back

875
00:38:43.520 --> 00:38:46.850
to being curious again, because it feels like independence wasn

876
00:38:46.850 --> 00:38:49.040
't the answer. So just wanted to

877
00:38:49.040 --> 00:38:52.020
be frame curious. I think, yeah, I mean, I think people need

878
00:38:52.020 --> 00:38:53.600
tasks. I think the purpose is

879
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:57.740
intimately tied up with the idea of task to fulfil. It's why

880
00:38:57.740 --> 00:39:00.000
people tend to find meaning in projects

881
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:02.420
which are not completed yet. In fact, Pascal writes quite

882
00:39:02.420 --> 00:39:04.000
compellingly about this when he writes

883
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.160
about boredom, and he imagines a gambler, someone who enjoys

884
00:39:08.160 --> 00:39:11.520
gambling, and says, well, why is this

885
00:39:11.520 --> 00:39:14.070
person gambling? Because they're doing this thing with the

886
00:39:14.070 --> 00:39:15.680
chance of winning some money. Okay,

887
00:39:15.680 --> 00:39:18.040
so why don't you just give them the money? Just take the

888
00:39:18.040 --> 00:39:19.680
gambling and give him all the money that

889
00:39:19.680 --> 00:39:22.960
he could possibly receive without playing the game. And he won

890
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:25.440
't be very fulfilled, even though he's

891
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.560
getting ostensibly what he was trying to get. No, no, that

892
00:39:27.560 --> 00:39:29.200
wouldn't be fulfilling because he enjoys

893
00:39:29.200 --> 00:39:34.320
the gambling. Okay, says Pascal, then let him play the game,

894
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.200
but make it such that he'll never actually

895
00:39:37.200 --> 00:39:40.100
win the money, but he gets to keep playing the game. And there

896
00:39:40.100 --> 00:39:41.680
's not going to be very fulfilled by

897
00:39:41.680 --> 00:39:44.340
that either. That's also going to be completely pointless. And

898
00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:45.840
so Pascal noticed that what you kind of

899
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:50.110
need to avoid boredom, and I suppose to imbue your life with

900
00:39:50.110 --> 00:39:53.200
purpose, at least in this analogy is

901
00:39:53.200 --> 00:39:59.320
some kind of task to fulfill that you haven't fulfilled yet,

902
00:39:59.320 --> 00:40:00.400
that you don't know if you're going

903
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:03.150
to fulfill, that you believe will bring you fulfillment when

904
00:40:03.150 --> 00:40:05.600
you get it, but you haven't got it yet.

905
00:40:05.600 --> 00:40:07.960
So what I think religion does it really well because it's the

906
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:08.960
definition of something which you

907
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:12.270
don't have now, which you can strive for, which when you get,

908
00:40:12.270 --> 00:40:15.440
you believe will be fulfilling.

909
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:19.700
Yeah, so I love these examples because actually, we know

910
00:40:19.700 --> 00:40:22.000
exactly what's going on in that thought

911
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:24.530
experiment, right? So now there have been, there's so many

912
00:40:24.530 --> 00:40:26.960
advances in neuroscience that we

913
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:31.370
understand why people gamble, right? So we understand that

914
00:40:31.370 --> 00:40:34.640
giving someone money will satisfy a

915
00:40:34.640 --> 00:40:37.600
gambler in one of two cases that I've seen this. I work with

916
00:40:37.600 --> 00:40:39.200
people with professional group

917
00:40:39.200 --> 00:40:42.920
players. Some people that we describe motivation is actually

918
00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:44.480
like a dozen different things going on

919
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:47.870
in your brain. So if you were a professional poker player in

920
00:40:47.870 --> 00:40:49.280
poker and I've literally worked with

921
00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:51.510
professional poker players who had no meaning in life, it's so

922
00:40:51.510 --> 00:40:52.960
funny. I'm thinking about a particular

923
00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:56.530
person. And then, you know, achieved a certain financial goal,

924
00:40:56.530 --> 00:40:58.160
that's why they play poker.

925
00:40:58.160 --> 00:41:02.320
So if your motivation is that I'm playing poker because I have

926
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:04.160
a skill that I'm using to get

927
00:41:04.160 --> 00:41:07.580
money, if that is your internal motivation, that is going to

928
00:41:07.580 --> 00:41:09.440
come from certain circuits in your brain,

929
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:12.130
it's going to come from places like your frontal lobe. Now, as

930
00:41:12.130 --> 00:41:14.400
Pascal pointed out, if you give the

931
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:17.570
average person who gambles money, what are they going to do

932
00:41:17.570 --> 00:41:20.160
with it? They're going to gamble more,

933
00:41:20.160 --> 00:41:23.330
right? So that means that their motivation is coming from

934
00:41:23.330 --> 00:41:25.040
something more closer to the nucleus

935
00:41:25.040 --> 00:41:27.610
accumbens, a random reinforcement schedule. Maybe they're

936
00:41:27.610 --> 00:41:29.520
trying to suppress amygdala emotions.

937
00:41:29.520 --> 00:41:32.480
So we actually can like look at that example and we can

938
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.440
understand why each of those things happens.

939
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:40.010
And then the most beautiful thing is that there is absolutely a

940
00:41:40.010 --> 00:41:43.840
scenario where someone can gamble

941
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:47.830
and never win and they can absolutely have purpose. So this is

942
00:41:47.830 --> 00:41:50.000
where I know that sounds insane,

943
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.960
but if you look at some of these things from the Zen tradition,

944
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:56.080
right? So these are practices that have

945
00:41:56.080 --> 00:41:59.260
no purpose to act with no meaning whatsoever. And the beautiful

946
00:41:59.260 --> 00:42:01.040
thing about that is as you explore

947
00:42:01.040 --> 00:42:04.890
that sort of angle and their sort of a neuroscience perspective

948
00:42:04.890 --> 00:42:07.280
to this as well is that if you really

949
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:09.980
think about it, you're saying, okay, so people invest in this

950
00:42:09.980 --> 00:42:12.160
purpose, or in this purpose seeking

951
00:42:12.160 --> 00:42:15.450
thing like religion with the idea that I'll find payoff at the

952
00:42:15.450 --> 00:42:17.360
end, is that what you were saying earlier?

953
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:20.070
I'm saying something a bit different. What I was going to go on

954
00:42:20.070 --> 00:42:21.520
to say is to point out

955
00:42:21.520 --> 00:42:24.750
that, and bear in mind, this comes from a part of Pascal's P

956
00:42:24.750 --> 00:42:26.720
once which is titled Man Without God.

957
00:42:26.720 --> 00:42:30.540
You know, he goes on to discuss Man With God. But I look at the

958
00:42:30.540 --> 00:42:33.520
development of the human species

959
00:42:33.520 --> 00:42:36.520
and our particular proclivities. Lewis makes this argument from

960
00:42:36.520 --> 00:42:37.680
desire that you mentioned,

961
00:42:37.680 --> 00:42:40.670
why do we have a desire for food? Well, because there is

962
00:42:40.670 --> 00:42:42.880
actually food to have. The evolutionary

963
00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:45.640
biologist says the reason that we develop hunger is because

964
00:42:45.640 --> 00:42:48.720
those who didn't died. And if you don't

965
00:42:48.720 --> 00:42:50.940
have some sense of hunger, you're not going to seek out food

966
00:42:50.940 --> 00:42:52.160
and you will die until it just so

967
00:42:52.160 --> 00:42:55.350
happens that those who develop this feeling of hunger will be

968
00:42:55.350 --> 00:42:57.120
more likely to survive and therefore

969
00:42:57.120 --> 00:43:00.910
hunger is a part of our human condition. Well, such is meaning.

970
00:43:00.910 --> 00:43:03.120
If you have two isolated communities,

971
00:43:03.120 --> 00:43:07.710
one of whom says, I just don't care. Whatever, man, no interest

972
00:43:07.710 --> 00:43:08.640
in having children,

973
00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:12.240
no interested in building societies, legal systems, constit

974
00:43:12.240 --> 00:43:14.560
utions, whatever the case, moral systems,

975
00:43:14.560 --> 00:43:16.920
none of those. They just don't care, nihilists. They're not

976
00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:18.720
even going to have children. That society

977
00:43:18.720 --> 00:43:22.200
will die out. Another society was just so happens to perhaps

978
00:43:22.200 --> 00:43:24.240
delusion in an exercise of delusion,

979
00:43:24.240 --> 00:43:27.630
just develop this inexplicable feeling. And of course, this

980
00:43:27.630 --> 00:43:29.200
evolves over time and starts with

981
00:43:29.200 --> 00:43:32.840
essentially the kind of random mutation of ideas that works on

982
00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:34.800
the genetic level and evolution,

983
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:38.440
they call it memetics when it's ideas rather than genes. The

984
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:40.560
society which just ends up developing

985
00:43:40.560 --> 00:43:43.490
this idea that actually, I can't quite explain why, but I just

986
00:43:43.490 --> 00:43:45.120
have this drive towards building

987
00:43:45.120 --> 00:43:48.690
a society and engaging in legal justice and moral systems and

988
00:43:48.690 --> 00:43:50.160
crimes. They're just more likely

989
00:43:50.160 --> 00:43:55.310
to survive. So we end up with this with this sense, this drive

990
00:43:55.310 --> 00:43:57.520
within us that we can't explain

991
00:43:57.520 --> 00:43:59.880
and yet we have. So imagine for the majority of our

992
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:01.760
evolutionary history what it was like.

993
00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:04.920
Every single day you woke up and you did not know if you were

994
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:06.320
going to have a roof over your head,

995
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:07.930
you didn't know if you were going to have food to eat, you had

996
00:44:07.930 --> 00:44:09.120
to go out and you had to hunt it,

997
00:44:09.120 --> 00:44:12.560
you had to go and find it. Every single day, the game reset.

998
00:44:12.560 --> 00:44:14.800
And so I would imagine that those

999
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:17.370
lives were probably quite meaningful, at least in the sense

1000
00:44:17.370 --> 00:44:18.880
that I don't think there will have been

1001
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:22.670
many existential crises on a day to day because the purpose was

1002
00:44:22.670 --> 00:44:24.560
quite clear. And like Pascal's

1003
00:44:24.560 --> 00:44:27.330
gambler, they had a task that they think will fulfill them when

1004
00:44:27.330 --> 00:44:28.400
they get it and they don't know

1005
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:31.040
whether it's going to be fulfilled. So what's happened today?

1006
00:44:31.040 --> 00:44:34.400
Well now we've been given the money

1007
00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:37.690
without the game. We've got houses, we've got food, we can go

1008
00:44:37.690 --> 00:44:40.320
next door and get some water,

1009
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:43.800
get some food from all over the planet. That's it, that you've

1010
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:45.120
got the money without the game.

1011
00:44:45.120 --> 00:44:48.520
So what do people do in the modern situation when they find out

1012
00:44:48.520 --> 00:44:50.400
their life is a bit meaningless?

1013
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:53.570
They start intentionally doing things, which are difficult,

1014
00:44:53.570 --> 00:44:56.080
they start doing ice baths, they start

1015
00:44:56.080 --> 00:44:59.300
exercising, they start going into a room just to physically

1016
00:44:59.300 --> 00:45:01.280
exert themselves in order to sort of

1017
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:04.720
build muscle and whatnot, like on purpose for its own sake. Why

1018
00:45:04.720 --> 00:45:06.240
? Because today we've got

1019
00:45:06.240 --> 00:45:09.810
the money without the game. So people are going out and seeking

1020
00:45:09.810 --> 00:45:10.960
the game without the money,

1021
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:13.190
they're going and doing the ice baths and the gym. But it's a

1022
00:45:13.190 --> 00:45:14.160
truly meaningful life,

1023
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:18.020
it's one in which you are playing the game in the service of

1024
00:45:18.020 --> 00:45:20.480
getting the goal. That is why I think

1025
00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:23.930
that literally just seeking out those things. I think that

1026
00:45:23.930 --> 00:45:25.600
there's a reason why they have a

1027
00:45:25.600 --> 00:45:28.430
psychological impact. It's not as simple as just like, oh well

1028
00:45:28.430 --> 00:45:30.320
if you go to the gym, it releases

1029
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:33.030
endorphins and makes you feel good. So let's think a bit deeper

1030
00:45:33.030 --> 00:45:34.720
than that. What's actually going on?

1031
00:45:34.720 --> 00:45:38.050
People are seeking out the game without the money. Crucially, I

1032
00:45:38.050 --> 00:45:41.680
've talked about this as a death

1033
00:45:41.680 --> 00:45:45.110
denying pursuit, right? The idea that the things that you

1034
00:45:45.110 --> 00:45:46.720
engage in here, at least in terms of

1035
00:45:46.720 --> 00:45:49.420
grand projects like religion and society, are even if you're so

1036
00:45:49.420 --> 00:45:50.880
consciously an exercise in the

1037
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.670
denial of death. What would that mean? It means that if you

1038
00:45:54.670 --> 00:45:57.040
encounter other communities,

1039
00:45:57.040 --> 00:46:01.200
if you encounter other traditions who just, just by their mere

1040
00:46:01.200 --> 00:46:04.080
existence, threatens the truth of

1041
00:46:04.080 --> 00:46:07.400
your claims, those traditions subconsciously represent death,

1042
00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:09.360
they represent nihilism. So what

1043
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:12.030
happens in a society that develops the kind of

1044
00:46:12.030 --> 00:46:15.840
telecommunications technology whereby every single day

1045
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:17.950
you open your phone and you are addicted to a process of

1046
00:46:17.950 --> 00:46:19.760
scrolling through every seven seconds

1047
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:22.710
a new person with new ideas with different beliefs from all

1048
00:46:22.710 --> 00:46:24.400
over the world? Do you think that might

1049
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:27.570
have something to do with the meaning crisis that we find

1050
00:46:27.570 --> 00:46:29.200
ourselves in? We're told that

1051
00:46:29.200 --> 00:46:31.730
what's happened is that people stop believing in God and now

1052
00:46:31.730 --> 00:46:33.040
they're all depressed and upset and

1053
00:46:33.040 --> 00:46:35.460
nihilistic. That's far too simple. You don't think it might

1054
00:46:35.460 --> 00:46:37.040
have something to do with the

1055
00:46:37.040 --> 00:46:41.900
fundamentally revolutionary change to our society that has been

1056
00:46:41.900 --> 00:46:45.600
brought about specifically by telecommunication,

1057
00:46:45.600 --> 00:46:49.420
by the ability to oftentimes unintentionally and non-cons

1058
00:46:49.420 --> 00:46:51.360
entially be confronted with

1059
00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:55.520
traditions and people from halfway across the world that just

1060
00:46:55.520 --> 00:46:57.440
remind you every single day,

1061
00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:01.530
zing, zing, zing every single day that your truth is not the

1062
00:47:01.530 --> 00:47:03.920
only truth, that the transcendence

1063
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:06.450
that you've placed your trust in is completely subjective and

1064
00:47:06.450 --> 00:47:08.320
personal and there's someone over there

1065
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:11.150
believes something totally different and seems to be living

1066
00:47:11.150 --> 00:47:12.720
just the same kind of happy life,

1067
00:47:12.720 --> 00:47:17.020
that I think is why people are struggling so much. It's not

1068
00:47:17.020 --> 00:47:18.960
just because they're atheists.

1069
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:21.820
I have a lot to say about this. I'll try to keep it compact. By

1070
00:47:21.820 --> 00:47:25.040
the way, we're all kinds of different

1071
00:47:25.040 --> 00:47:29.660
options for a spiritually. That doesn't necessarily suggest

1072
00:47:29.660 --> 00:47:32.080
that none of the options are actually

1073
00:47:32.080 --> 00:47:35.660
accurate or that are. I'm making a psychology and implication

1074
00:47:35.660 --> 00:47:36.880
there and this is what creates

1075
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:40.460
the kind of the angst because all we have is our own personal

1076
00:47:40.460 --> 00:47:42.320
subjective point of view.

1077
00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:44.950
I think that's why people experience that. Now, of course, as a

1078
00:47:44.950 --> 00:47:46.560
matter of truth, you could say,

1079
00:47:46.560 --> 00:47:48.830
for example, yourself, you could say, yes, I'm constantly

1080
00:47:48.830 --> 00:47:49.600
confronted by different

1081
00:47:49.600 --> 00:47:52.130
religious traditions that I believe the Christianity is true. I

1082
00:47:52.130 --> 00:47:53.360
think it has the best evidence.

1083
00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:56.530
This is not missing even true and even in the scientific realm,

1084
00:47:56.530 --> 00:47:57.440
you're all kinds of

1085
00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:00.110
different ideas, but no one wants to say just because there are

1086
00:48:00.110 --> 00:48:02.000
so many different ideas to explain

1087
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.280
things then. Yes, no, but it can be correct. Which is why what

1088
00:48:04.280 --> 00:48:06.160
I'm saying is insensitive to the

1089
00:48:06.160 --> 00:48:09.100
truth or falsity of any of the traditions. What I'm saying is,

1090
00:48:09.100 --> 00:48:10.880
because I want to go to that next.

1091
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:16.240
As an explanation as for the psychological phenomenon, the

1092
00:48:16.240 --> 00:48:17.920
literal feeling that people have,

1093
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:21.090
because likewise, you would say that there is a meaning crisis

1094
00:48:21.090 --> 00:48:22.080
maybe. You would say that lots

1095
00:48:22.080 --> 00:48:25.060
of the statistics were just heard. You would say lots of people

1096
00:48:25.060 --> 00:48:26.720
don't feel meaning in their life,

1097
00:48:26.720 --> 00:48:29.030
and you'd want to offer an explanation for why that's the case.

1098
00:48:29.030 --> 00:48:29.920
You think their lives are

1099
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:32.160
meaningful, right? You think that all of those people who say,

1100
00:48:32.160 --> 00:48:33.040
my life has no meaning,

1101
00:48:33.040 --> 00:48:35.570
they're wrong. Their lives actually do have meaning. Is that

1102
00:48:35.570 --> 00:48:36.080
what you think?

1103
00:48:36.080 --> 00:48:39.700
Well, this was the subject of response. They feel like they don

1104
00:48:39.700 --> 00:48:41.040
't help me. Exactly,

1105
00:48:41.040 --> 00:48:44.210
but they were made for a purpose. If they're not in in touch

1106
00:48:44.210 --> 00:48:45.360
with that meaning and purpose,

1107
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:47.980
then they're going to feel be rough. Exactly. I believe there

1108
00:48:47.980 --> 00:48:49.280
really is a purpose for their life,

1109
00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:51.430
but subjectively they haven't either found it or they don't

1110
00:48:51.430 --> 00:48:53.440
feel it. What I'm doing is I'm offering a

1111
00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:56.840
psychological explanation for why they don't feel it, which is

1112
00:48:56.840 --> 00:48:58.640
completely insensitive to whether

1113
00:48:58.640 --> 00:49:02.730
or not. That's a truth. I'm so glad you put it that way because

1114
00:49:02.730 --> 00:49:04.000
this is exactly my point.

1115
00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:06.730
I don't want anybody to miss it. We're really offering two

1116
00:49:06.730 --> 00:49:08.560
different pictures of reality here.

1117
00:49:08.560 --> 00:49:12.040
People have to ask themselves two questions, I think. One is

1118
00:49:12.040 --> 00:49:14.080
they reflect on their own personal

1119
00:49:14.080 --> 00:49:18.670
awareness of the need for meaning and significance. Does it

1120
00:49:18.670 --> 00:49:21.040
seem to them that this is just a

1121
00:49:21.040 --> 00:49:23.400
psychological thing that people can satisfy in all kinds of

1122
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:24.640
different ways depending on the

1123
00:49:24.640 --> 00:49:28.210
individual or does it seem to them, I'm asking these questions

1124
00:49:28.210 --> 00:49:31.520
because I suspect there is a truth about

1125
00:49:31.520 --> 00:49:35.890
life that might be discovered. That's the first question. I

1126
00:49:35.890 --> 00:49:38.880
think most people's awareness of this

1127
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:42.370
is that there's something transcendent, something bigger than

1128
00:49:42.370 --> 00:49:44.960
them. Any kind of naturalistic

1129
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:47.750
explanation is not going to ultimately satisfy that. The other

1130
00:49:47.750 --> 00:49:49.680
thing is, is there any reason to believe

1131
00:49:50.240 --> 00:49:53.510
that there is a transcendent reality that God exists that souls

1132
00:49:53.510 --> 00:49:55.520
exist, that there is an objective

1133
00:49:55.520 --> 00:50:00.400
morality, that guides our life. And if we're living virtuously,

1134
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:02.320
that's going to be satisfying

1135
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:05.170
even if we don't believe in God or not. Those are the two

1136
00:50:05.170 --> 00:50:07.600
things that stay here. Now,

1137
00:50:07.600 --> 00:50:10.900
this description, the story of reality, I just described that I

1138
00:50:10.900 --> 00:50:12.640
hold to it, it seems to me completely

1139
00:50:12.640 --> 00:50:16.360
coherent. Maybe not true, but it certainly is coherent that if

1140
00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:18.000
there is a God who made us for

1141
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:20.530
ourselves in places eternity in our hearts that we're going to

1142
00:50:20.530 --> 00:50:22.400
year in for that and made the way

1143
00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:24.930
for us to live, and they're going to find good ways to live as

1144
00:50:24.930 --> 00:50:26.640
opposed to unsatisfying ways to live.

1145
00:50:26.640 --> 00:50:29.850
That makes sense. Doesn't make any sense to me at all to say

1146
00:50:29.850 --> 00:50:31.680
that my molecules are moving in a

1147
00:50:31.680 --> 00:50:34.940
certain way to create in my conscious mind, which Darwinist

1148
00:50:34.940 --> 00:50:37.520
would cannot offer an explanation for.

1149
00:50:37.520 --> 00:50:40.530
It has this right, Daniel Dennett said, "Consciousness and

1150
00:50:40.530 --> 00:50:42.720
illusion," you know, because he couldn't do

1151
00:50:42.720 --> 00:50:45.370
anything with it. Thomas Nagel wrote his book, "Mind the Cosmos

1152
00:50:45.370 --> 00:50:47.040
, you're familiar with this. I'm sure,

1153
00:50:47.040 --> 00:50:50.660
you know, why the Neo-Dorinian materialistic view of the world

1154
00:50:50.660 --> 00:50:52.320
is almost certainly false."

1155
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:55.070
And he's an atheist, we're going to say, because he can't

1156
00:50:55.070 --> 00:50:56.320
explain consciousness,

1157
00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:59.140
not in a Darwinian way. So how is it that this mystery of

1158
00:50:59.140 --> 00:51:00.960
consciousness which contains

1159
00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:05.150
propositional thoughts, ideas, and purposes, if consciousness

1160
00:51:05.150 --> 00:51:07.520
can't be explained to Darwinian way,

1161
00:51:07.520 --> 00:51:12.340
how can some characterization of molecules in motion accomplish

1162
00:51:12.340 --> 00:51:14.880
that same end? That's my concern.

1163
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:17.430
This way I'm not convinced about it all about the naturalistic

1164
00:51:17.430 --> 00:51:18.800
one, and this one seems so much

1165
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:21.430
more plausible. What you're raising is the problem of

1166
00:51:21.430 --> 00:51:24.320
consciousness, which is, I think, a new question,

1167
00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:27.330
but an important one. I wanted to point out earlier that when I

1168
00:51:27.330 --> 00:51:29.200
gave an explanation as to why people

1169
00:51:29.200 --> 00:51:32.970
feel a lack of meaning, and you said that has no bearing on

1170
00:51:32.970 --> 00:51:34.320
truth, I think that's...

1171
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:36.850
You admitted that too at the unknown way. I should have. I

1172
00:51:36.850 --> 00:51:38.720
admit it, I asserted. Of course,

1173
00:51:38.720 --> 00:51:41.520
that's the case. In the firm you weren't making the case. In

1174
00:51:41.520 --> 00:51:43.520
the same way that if somebody says that,

1175
00:51:43.520 --> 00:51:46.720
like, if you're a Christian and you say the reason everyone's

1176
00:51:46.720 --> 00:51:48.880
so depressed is because society has

1177
00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:51.780
become atheistic, somebody could say, well, yeah, I mean, that

1178
00:51:51.780 --> 00:51:53.040
might be the case, but that doesn't

1179
00:51:53.040 --> 00:51:55.580
mean atheism as false. It might be that it is true and just

1180
00:51:55.580 --> 00:51:58.160
depressing, right? Of course, the question,

1181
00:51:58.160 --> 00:52:01.330
if we're discussing their ultimate explanation, if you want to

1182
00:52:01.330 --> 00:52:02.960
know why somebody feels a particular

1183
00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:05.490
way psychologically, you can offer an explanation which has

1184
00:52:05.490 --> 00:52:06.640
absolutely nothing to do with the

1185
00:52:06.640 --> 00:52:08.900
truth or falsity of a worldview. You can then separately

1186
00:52:08.900 --> 00:52:10.160
discuss the truth or falsity of the

1187
00:52:10.160 --> 00:52:12.810
worldview, which is then gone on to do with specific reference

1188
00:52:12.810 --> 00:52:14.000
to the problem of consciousness.

1189
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:18.320
It thinks it has absolutely nothing or it can be experienced

1190
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:20.000
apart from the issue of worldview.

1191
00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:22.250
I'm saying that if you're literally just trying... I mean, if

1192
00:52:22.250 --> 00:52:23.440
the question I'm asked is,

1193
00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:27.230
why do people perceive a lack of meaning in their life? That's

1194
00:52:27.230 --> 00:52:28.720
just a question about their

1195
00:52:28.720 --> 00:52:31.580
psychological constitution. That's just... That's literally a

1196
00:52:31.580 --> 00:52:32.640
question about why they say a

1197
00:52:32.640 --> 00:52:35.420
particular way. So if a person was a total nailist, didn't

1198
00:52:35.420 --> 00:52:36.320
believe in anything

1199
00:52:37.120 --> 00:52:40.720
was important and then they were depressed and even suicidal,

1200
00:52:40.720 --> 00:52:42.080
would you say there wasn't a link

1201
00:52:42.080 --> 00:52:45.330
between that worldview and their feelings? Yes, there is, but

1202
00:52:45.330 --> 00:52:46.560
what I'm saying is that the link

1203
00:52:46.560 --> 00:52:48.870
between that worldview and their feeling has nothing to do with

1204
00:52:48.870 --> 00:52:50.000
the truth of the worldview.

1205
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:52.150
Okay. You see what I'm saying? It doesn't... Nihilism can be

1206
00:52:52.150 --> 00:52:53.920
true, nihilism can be false,

1207
00:52:53.920 --> 00:52:57.470
nihilism can be an unintelligible concept. It can still be the

1208
00:52:57.470 --> 00:52:58.400
case that that person's

1209
00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:01.350
conviction is making them depressed. I agree. In the same way

1210
00:53:01.350 --> 00:53:02.480
that somebody could be a

1211
00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:04.480
Christian and that makes them really happy, that doesn't mean

1212
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:05.920
Christianity is true. Someone can become

1213
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:07.990
Christian and become really depressed. That doesn't mean that

1214
00:53:07.990 --> 00:53:09.360
Christianity is false. What I'm trying to

1215
00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:12.860
point out is it is just trivially true. So I still want to try

1216
00:53:12.860 --> 00:53:14.480
to understand a little bit about

1217
00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:19.320
what you're saying because I don't fully follow. And I think

1218
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:22.240
that the reason I feel way more

1219
00:53:22.240 --> 00:53:26.400
confident in what you're saying is because Christ is pulling at

1220
00:53:26.400 --> 00:53:29.520
you 100%. Yeah. So I think

1221
00:53:29.520 --> 00:53:32.820
Christ, we both talked to Christ, so we're good on that. I know

1222
00:53:32.820 --> 00:53:34.240
where he's coming from.

1223
00:53:34.240 --> 00:53:37.360
So a couple of things that I'm... I don't trust you, you know.

1224
00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:39.800
Awesome. Does he talk back? He does not talk back. Yeah, that's

1225
00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:40.880
tricky. We can talk about

1226
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:43.620
how to get you there. One person instead just read the gospels

1227
00:53:43.620 --> 00:53:44.080
aloud.

1228
00:53:44.080 --> 00:53:51.050
So a couple of things that I'm curious about. One is... So I'm

1229
00:53:51.050 --> 00:53:52.720
noticing that you're... I'm trying

1230
00:53:52.720 --> 00:53:56.880
to understand where... So I love the way you're sallying forth

1231
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:59.440
to grapple with this problem of

1232
00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:02.920
purpose. You do a beautiful job of sort of talking about like,

1233
00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:04.480
okay, what's the truth?

1234
00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:09.310
And then there's this psychological perspective. And I want to

1235
00:54:09.310 --> 00:54:11.120
just try to understand this. So

1236
00:54:11.120 --> 00:54:14.750
are you of the mind that from a psychological perspective, you

1237
00:54:14.750 --> 00:54:16.640
can wake up one day and feel like you

1238
00:54:16.640 --> 00:54:20.400
have purpose, but that doesn't necessarily talk about purpose

1239
00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:22.400
transcendentally.

1240
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:24.830
Capital pain. I'm saying that doesn't talk about the truth of

1241
00:54:24.830 --> 00:54:26.080
your belief. Okay.

1242
00:54:26.080 --> 00:54:29.680
So for example, you could you could you could believe that your

1243
00:54:29.680 --> 00:54:31.440
children are about to die.

1244
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:34.940
And that suddenly your life feels really meaningless and really

1245
00:54:34.940 --> 00:54:35.920
purposeless.

1246
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:38.280
It could be completely false. You could have been like misled

1247
00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:39.280
someone to lie to you,

1248
00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:41.920
but like what I'm saying is the psychological explanation for

1249
00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:43.280
why you feel a particular way

1250
00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:45.920
has nothing to do with the truth of the thing that you believe

1251
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:47.280
that's making you feel that way.

1252
00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:50.880
Gotcha. Okay. So what I'm curious about is when you are

1253
00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:52.160
exploring purpose,

1254
00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:57.230
are you exploring it from are you trying to find the answer at

1255
00:54:57.230 --> 00:54:59.280
the top? Like what is the truth of

1256
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:04.680
purpose? Or are you focused on the subjective experience of

1257
00:55:04.680 --> 00:55:05.680
purpose?

1258
00:55:05.680 --> 00:55:08.520
Depends on the context. If you're asking, I mean, we were

1259
00:55:08.520 --> 00:55:10.800
talking literally about a psychological

1260
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:13.500
explanation for why people feel a particular way. You know, is

1261
00:55:13.500 --> 00:55:14.720
it due to a decline in religion,

1262
00:55:14.720 --> 00:55:16.790
that kind of stuff? In that case, it's subjective. It's

1263
00:55:16.790 --> 00:55:17.520
individuals. Yeah.

1264
00:55:18.640 --> 00:55:23.360
Yeah. So so do you think that the top one can be answered?

1265
00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:28.220
What the top one is in like they're being they're being purpose

1266
00:55:28.220 --> 00:55:30.000
, right? So that's not subjective at all.

1267
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:32.180
So what does that mean? They're they're being purpose because

1268
00:55:32.180 --> 00:55:33.760
for me, that looks like some kind of

1269
00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:38.560
reason to act or to be that is not contingent on some other

1270
00:55:38.560 --> 00:55:40.560
fact. Just to be clear,

1271
00:55:40.560 --> 00:55:42.650
to make clear to the listener, I think you hear what I'm saying

1272
00:55:42.650 --> 00:55:44.400
, but like, suppose you woke up

1273
00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:47.690
and you were a Christian and that brought you meaning. What I'm

1274
00:55:47.690 --> 00:55:49.200
saying is that subjective sense of

1275
00:55:49.200 --> 00:55:52.900
meaning that you get from Christianity has no bearing on the

1276
00:55:52.900 --> 00:55:55.040
truth or falsity of Christianity.

1277
00:55:55.040 --> 00:55:59.700
Gotcha. Right. So so what I'm curious about is in your opinion,

1278
00:55:59.700 --> 00:56:00.560
and if you don't have one,

1279
00:56:00.560 --> 00:56:05.920
that's totally fine. You know, do you think that, so sure,

1280
00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:07.360
there's a subjective experience,

1281
00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:10.240
which doesn't speak to truth, right? It's just a subjective

1282
00:56:10.240 --> 00:56:12.640
experience. Do you think that

1283
00:56:12.640 --> 00:56:16.410
there is some way to grapple with that truth? Well, the truth

1284
00:56:16.410 --> 00:56:18.960
of Christianity or something is the truth

1285
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:22.970
truth of purpose. We're shifting here, right? Because what I'm

1286
00:56:22.970 --> 00:56:24.960
saying is let me shift that I want

1287
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:27.260
to do that. So then I'm going to go back. This is why I maybe I

1288
00:56:27.260 --> 00:56:28.480
'm not understanding your question.

1289
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:31.670
What all I am saying, yeah, is that if you feel if you feel a

1290
00:56:31.670 --> 00:56:33.680
subjective sense of purpose from

1291
00:56:33.680 --> 00:56:37.990
proposition P, like the fact that you feel purpose from that

1292
00:56:37.990 --> 00:56:39.760
does not have any bearing

1293
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:43.070
in the position P. And then you just ask, but is there a way to

1294
00:56:43.070 --> 00:56:44.720
discuss whether P is true?

1295
00:56:44.720 --> 00:56:47.760
Well, yeah, like so if proposition P is Christianity, then yeah

1296
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:48.880
, we can talk about the historical

1297
00:56:48.880 --> 00:56:51.040
argument for the resurrection of Jesus or something. Gotcha.

1298
00:56:51.040 --> 00:56:52.720
Gotcha. Okay. I'm not trying to reach

1299
00:56:52.720 --> 00:56:57.680
into some mystical capital P purpose realm. Gotcha. So right.

1300
00:56:57.680 --> 00:56:59.600
So I think that's so helpful.

1301
00:56:59.600 --> 00:57:05.440
Thank you so much. Okay. So that's really helpful for me

1302
00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:07.520
because then you, I want to go back to

1303
00:57:07.520 --> 00:57:09.820
something you said earlier about, you know, cell phones and we

1304
00:57:09.820 --> 00:57:11.040
're scrolling on cell phones and

1305
00:57:11.040 --> 00:57:14.210
things like that. And we have this like like this worldview.

1306
00:57:14.210 --> 00:57:15.920
And then if we encounter a worldview

1307
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:18.820
that is different from ours that could put us into some form of

1308
00:57:18.820 --> 00:57:20.240
crisis or difficulty. And we're

1309
00:57:20.240 --> 00:57:24.070
getting bombarded by all of these things. And so what that

1310
00:57:24.070 --> 00:57:26.400
means is that the individual, when they

1311
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:28.780
wake up in the morning and they scroll through their phone,

1312
00:57:28.780 --> 00:57:30.880
right, we're not talking about whether

1313
00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:34.580
the proposition P is true or not, their subjective experiences

1314
00:57:34.580 --> 00:57:36.480
like I have no meaning and I have no

1315
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:40.950
purpose in line. Right. And so you posited one mechanism, which

1316
00:57:40.950 --> 00:57:43.440
I think is a completely valid mechanism is a

1317
00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:46.160
philosophical mechanism, but we have a lot of neuroscience

1318
00:57:46.160 --> 00:57:48.560
mechanisms that support what you're saying.

1319
00:57:48.560 --> 00:57:52.050
So just, and this is where I think that we kind of, I'm going

1320
00:57:52.050 --> 00:57:53.840
to sort of restate that

1321
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:56.510
what my experience of this stuff has been because I'm, I'm not

1322
00:57:56.510 --> 00:57:59.520
a philosopher is I don't really know

1323
00:57:59.520 --> 00:58:02.740
too well how to contend with whether proposition P is true or

1324
00:58:02.740 --> 00:58:04.400
not. That's why I was asking.

1325
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:07.350
And it's not that you weren't being clear. It's that I'm just

1326
00:58:07.350 --> 00:58:09.040
ignorant of how philosophy works.

1327
00:58:09.040 --> 00:58:12.480
And so that's why I was kind of asking like, you know, can you

1328
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:14.880
do that? So that's where it's also

1329
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:18.150
where like I'm kind of coming from is that we have this crisis

1330
00:58:18.150 --> 00:58:19.520
that has a high suicide

1331
00:58:19.520 --> 00:58:24.000
ality, high addiction rates, people left the church in big ways.

1332
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:25.360
And then we're sort of left

1333
00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:28.250
with like, okay, how do we navigate this? And that's where I

1334
00:58:28.250 --> 00:58:29.840
think if we look at a lot of this,

1335
00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:34.940
the influences on society, we see that there's profound

1336
00:58:34.940 --> 00:58:37.600
neurological influences.

1337
00:58:37.600 --> 00:58:39.690
And what I sort of found is when I was working, especially with

1338
00:58:39.690 --> 00:58:41.120
like patients with trauma,

1339
00:58:41.120 --> 00:58:44.760
that there is a set of things that is happening in the world

1340
00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:47.600
around them, that induce certain

1341
00:58:47.600 --> 00:58:51.170
changes to their how they experience the world. So a really

1342
00:58:51.170 --> 00:58:52.560
good example of this is,

1343
00:58:52.560 --> 00:58:55.830
if you want to find your purpose in life, you should reduce

1344
00:58:55.830 --> 00:58:57.760
your level of allexithymia.

1345
00:58:57.760 --> 00:59:01.160
So allexithymia is the inability to tell what you you're

1346
00:59:01.160 --> 00:59:03.760
emotionally feeling. And if we look at the

1347
00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:06.450
influence of things like cell phones, what they're doing is

1348
00:59:06.450 --> 00:59:08.960
they're suppressing the parts of our brain

1349
00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:11.860
that have that experience negative emotion. Sometimes they

1350
00:59:11.860 --> 00:59:13.040
provoke negative emotion,

1351
00:59:13.040 --> 00:59:15.910
sometimes they suppress negative emotions. And so if you start

1352
00:59:15.910 --> 00:59:18.960
to be able to feel more,

1353
00:59:18.960 --> 00:59:23.620
right? So this is literally shutting down the parts of our

1354
00:59:23.620 --> 00:59:26.400
brain that that give us an internal

1355
00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:30.600
sense of what we feel. And so as you shut down your ability to

1356
00:59:30.600 --> 00:59:32.400
detect what you are feeling on the

1357
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:36.870
inside, that correlates with your not having a detection of

1358
00:59:36.870 --> 00:59:38.800
purpose on the inside.

1359
00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:41.970
So I think that, you know, this is you asked the question, why

1360
00:59:41.970 --> 00:59:43.520
is this happening? I think we're

1361
00:59:43.520 --> 00:59:46.950
disabling and I was working with people with trauma and sort of

1362
00:59:46.950 --> 00:59:49.040
sort of figured out a sequence of

1363
00:59:49.040 --> 00:59:52.210
things that is based on the literature that involves things

1364
00:59:52.210 --> 00:59:54.000
like reducing your allexithymia,

1365
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:56.830
another big part is managing your ego. So I think this

1366
00:59:56.830 --> 00:59:58.880
relationship with God thing is a really,

1367
00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:02.170
really, really great example of like if you ask, what is the

1368
01:00:02.170 --> 01:00:04.800
mechanism of a relationship with God?

1369
01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:08.960
So we as human beings tend to be like I'm here, but then as you

1370
01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:11.440
relate to other people around you,

1371
01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:14.110
your sense of identity changes. And when you relate to

1372
01:00:14.110 --> 01:00:15.840
something that is transcendent,

1373
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:18.390
I know that that's a scary word and I don't know exactly what

1374
01:00:18.390 --> 01:00:20.400
that word means, but as you relate

1375
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:24.620
to something that is really big up here, that has noticeable

1376
01:00:24.620 --> 01:00:27.200
effects on your default mode network,

1377
01:00:27.200 --> 01:00:30.540
your sense of self. And as your default mode network no longer

1378
01:00:30.540 --> 01:00:32.240
becomes hyperactive, the more

1379
01:00:32.240 --> 01:00:35.130
hyperactive your default mode network is the more likely I

1380
01:00:35.130 --> 01:00:37.040
think you are to be like nihilistic,

1381
01:00:37.040 --> 01:00:40.310
to have a pessimistic worldview. As we start to make those

1382
01:00:40.310 --> 01:00:43.360
changes, then people start to feel

1383
01:00:43.360 --> 01:00:46.400
a sense of purpose. They start to feel a sense of connection.

1384
01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:47.600
And then the last kind of really

1385
01:00:47.600 --> 01:00:50.390
interesting data, which we can go into is if a psychedelics,

1386
01:00:50.390 --> 01:00:52.640
which is really, really fascinating because this

1387
01:00:52.640 --> 01:00:55.660
allows us to test subjective experience and the effective

1388
01:00:55.660 --> 01:00:58.240
subjective subjective experience on a person.

1389
01:00:58.240 --> 01:01:01.550
Is this opportunity, please? I'm just concerned that you might

1390
01:01:01.550 --> 01:01:02.800
have overstated something,

1391
01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:05.620
maybe reflecting back something you thought I was saying and I

1392
01:01:05.620 --> 01:01:07.200
was making the case about

1393
01:01:07.200 --> 01:01:09.950
the genetic fallacy and just because a person has a motivation

1394
01:01:09.950 --> 01:01:11.280
to believe something doesn't

1395
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:13.960
necessarily mean that that thing is true or have a subjective

1396
01:01:13.960 --> 01:01:15.600
experience. I think it goes a little

1397
01:01:15.600 --> 01:01:17.960
further than that though. If you went to the doctor and you

1398
01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:19.520
weren't feeling well, then doctor gave

1399
01:01:19.520 --> 01:01:22.110
you a pill and then you went home and you took the pill and you

1400
01:01:22.110 --> 01:01:23.520
felt better. I think it would be

1401
01:01:23.520 --> 01:01:26.140
appropriate for you to say, well, that pill, taking that pill,

1402
01:01:26.140 --> 01:01:27.760
going that doctor, had something to do

1403
01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:31.670
with my experience that I'm having right now. Oh, yeah. I think

1404
01:01:31.670 --> 01:01:33.280
this is why I think it might have

1405
01:01:33.280 --> 01:01:36.030
an intention, unintentionally been an overstatement in your

1406
01:01:36.030 --> 01:01:38.160
part because I think just like your

1407
01:01:38.160 --> 01:01:42.040
friend Stephen who in Dubai, all of a sudden became a Christian

1408
01:01:42.040 --> 01:01:44.160
, everything changed. Okay.

1409
01:01:44.160 --> 01:01:50.000
Well, you I guess you could say the change of life isn't maybe

1410
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:51.760
knock down drag down proof

1411
01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:56.160
that what he believes now is actually true, big P, big T that

1412
01:01:56.160 --> 01:01:58.080
like Jesus seems to be

1413
01:01:58.080 --> 01:02:00.610
part of me that like Jesus rose from the dead. It's got no

1414
01:02:00.610 --> 01:02:02.240
barrel and whether that's true or not.

1415
01:02:02.240 --> 01:02:05.410
Well, I'm speaking of a different thing right now. I'm thinking

1416
01:02:05.410 --> 01:02:07.280
about the experience now with

1417
01:02:07.280 --> 01:02:11.440
God that he's having. If he's having this change life, this,

1418
01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:13.360
this is evidential, this is,

1419
01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:17.000
this lens credibility to the belief system that he's now

1420
01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:19.360
adopted because it created this particular

1421
01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:22.530
significant change in his life. It may not be proof and that

1422
01:02:22.530 --> 01:02:23.280
word is a really

1423
01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:28.430
an oocygoosey word, just how to pin down. But nevertheless, it

1424
01:02:28.430 --> 01:02:29.840
still seems to be evidential.

1425
01:02:29.840 --> 01:02:34.640
It is, it speaks to the legitimacy and accuracy and truth

1426
01:02:34.640 --> 01:02:36.640
fulness of the belief system that

1427
01:02:36.640 --> 01:02:40.620
produced this change life. It's only evidence that belief in

1428
01:02:40.620 --> 01:02:43.040
that thing makes someone feel more fulfilled.

1429
01:02:43.040 --> 01:02:45.230
That's the only thing is evidence. Okay. So this is where we

1430
01:02:45.230 --> 01:02:47.920
differ just like just with him on this

1431
01:02:47.920 --> 01:02:52.290
one. Okay. Just because, uh, just because a certain, you're

1432
01:02:52.290 --> 01:02:54.560
saying just because they believe it,

1433
01:02:54.560 --> 01:02:57.730
this makes him better. It doesn't mean that the belief is

1434
01:02:57.730 --> 01:02:58.640
actually sound.

1435
01:02:58.640 --> 01:03:01.010
Greg, I've got a good way of coming at this then. So this is

1436
01:03:01.010 --> 01:03:02.400
where we differ. That's right.

1437
01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:05.990
If I had five friends, and they all picked five different

1438
01:03:05.990 --> 01:03:08.720
religions, and they all felt the same

1439
01:03:08.720 --> 01:03:11.050
thing that my friend did and to buy where they all felt better

1440
01:03:11.050 --> 01:03:13.200
for it, does, is that evidential

1441
01:03:13.200 --> 01:03:16.200
that all five religions are true? Well, see, I don't actually

1442
01:03:16.200 --> 01:03:17.840
think it works that way. You can

1443
01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:21.170
speculate and say and offer that illustration. Um, but I don't

1444
01:03:21.170 --> 01:03:22.960
think it actually works that way.

1445
01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:27.370
I think that universally the experience of Christians is very,

1446
01:03:27.370 --> 01:03:29.920
very quantifiable.

1447
01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:33.560
So in terms of transformed lives, and this is one of the

1448
01:03:33.560 --> 01:03:35.520
reasons that these transformed lives

1449
01:03:35.520 --> 01:03:38.690
led in credibility to the belief system itself. So in that

1450
01:03:38.690 --> 01:03:40.080
scenario where one of my friends

1451
01:03:40.080 --> 01:03:43.510
turns to Islam, one of my friends turns to Christianity, et c

1452
01:03:43.510 --> 01:03:46.480
etera, et cetera, the only

1453
01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:50.500
experience that's evidential of truth is the Christians. Well,

1454
01:03:50.500 --> 01:03:52.160
I think you have to look at every

1455
01:03:52.160 --> 01:03:56.560
individual thing. All right. And, um, here's my suspicion, and

1456
01:03:56.560 --> 01:03:58.640
I haven't quantified this across

1457
01:03:58.640 --> 01:04:01.000
the board. All right. Different people have different

1458
01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:02.320
experiences by engaging different

1459
01:04:02.320 --> 01:04:07.050
religious, uh, belief traditions, whatever. But insofar as

1460
01:04:07.050 --> 01:04:10.720
anybody's life is significantly altered

1461
01:04:10.720 --> 01:04:15.090
by that thing, this to me is evidence that something is going

1462
01:04:15.090 --> 01:04:17.920
on here, then merely the belief.

1463
01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:21.400
If it's just the belief, you're back to, uh, to marks again and

1464
01:04:21.400 --> 01:04:22.880
the opiate of the people,

1465
01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:26.080
you know, that would be Carl, not Groucho, although it's done.

1466
01:04:26.080 --> 01:04:28.630
It's just anybody knows who those two people are anymore. It

1467
01:04:28.630 --> 01:04:29.200
sounds as though,

1468
01:04:29.200 --> 01:04:35.480
you know, if I, if I lied to somebody and a cruel prank, and I

1469
01:04:35.480 --> 01:04:37.120
told them that say they're

1470
01:04:37.120 --> 01:04:39.670
really struggling with money, they're really, really suffering

1471
01:04:39.670 --> 01:04:40.880
for it. And they feel, and they

1472
01:04:40.880 --> 01:04:42.800
have these psychological effects of feeling that life is

1473
01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:44.400
meaningless, they want to kill themselves,

1474
01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:46.930
whatever it is, because they just, they cannot keep living. And

1475
01:04:46.930 --> 01:04:49.680
I tell them good news, um, you've

1476
01:04:49.680 --> 01:04:53.080
won the lottery. You've won a million pounds. And suddenly the

1477
01:04:53.080 --> 01:04:55.040
weight is lifted, the joy is brought.

1478
01:04:55.040 --> 01:04:57.600
Of course, money isn't sufficient for bringing about meaning.

1479
01:04:57.600 --> 01:05:00.400
This does, but I've lied to them,

1480
01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:05.080
like the fact that they feel this immense sense of meaning from

1481
01:05:05.080 --> 01:05:06.880
a belief that they've adopted

1482
01:05:06.880 --> 01:05:11.040
has, it bears absolutely no evidence. No, in that case, whether

1483
01:05:11.040 --> 01:05:11.920
it's true that they want a

1484
01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:15.570
million pounds. I'm just saying that to divorce all results

1485
01:05:15.570 --> 01:05:18.000
from belief systems is a mistake.

1486
01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:19.710
I don't want to do that. There can be a, there can be a

1487
01:05:19.710 --> 01:05:21.040
connection. There can be something

1488
01:05:21.040 --> 01:05:23.790
because you can mislead somebody by telling them a lie and they

1489
01:05:23.790 --> 01:05:26.000
can experience something emotionally.

1490
01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:28.940
Doesn't mean that the other person who's experiencing something

1491
01:05:28.940 --> 01:05:30.640
transcendent in their emotions.

1492
01:05:30.640 --> 01:05:34.150
And by the way, for Christians, it's not just a high because

1493
01:05:34.150 --> 01:05:35.520
Christianity is not a

1494
01:05:35.520 --> 01:05:39.680
continuous high. Even people who are suffering terribly as

1495
01:05:39.680 --> 01:05:41.520
Christians in persecution,

1496
01:05:41.520 --> 01:05:45.680
read Fox's books and martyrs, book of martyrs still have this

1497
01:05:45.680 --> 01:05:47.440
strong sense of value, purpose

1498
01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:50.610
and security, even so. I'm just saying there's an evident

1499
01:05:50.610 --> 01:05:52.560
relationship between those. It's not

1500
01:05:52.560 --> 01:05:55.390
enough to just simply dismiss it because you can tell a lie and

1501
01:05:55.390 --> 01:05:57.120
someone can have the same kind of

1502
01:05:57.120 --> 01:05:59.650
feeling. I'm even happy to say that like, I don't know if this

1503
01:05:59.650 --> 01:06:00.640
is true, but suppose it

1504
01:06:00.640 --> 01:06:03.810
was just the case that only Christianity brought about this

1505
01:06:03.810 --> 01:06:05.440
positive effect. Suppose we just

1506
01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:07.990
discovered that everybody who claimed to feel meaning it just

1507
01:06:07.990 --> 01:06:09.520
didn't compare. It's not what I'm

1508
01:06:09.520 --> 01:06:11.880
saying. But suppose that were the case, even if there was

1509
01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:13.680
something really special about Christianity

1510
01:06:13.680 --> 01:06:16.630
that gave some evidential credence to something specific about

1511
01:06:16.630 --> 01:06:18.080
Christianity, but it's true about

1512
01:06:18.080 --> 01:06:20.970
Christianity that it particularly infuses life with meaning. I

1513
01:06:20.970 --> 01:06:23.360
still think it just has nothing to do

1514
01:06:23.360 --> 01:06:26.360
with the truth of Christianity as a worldview. I mean,

1515
01:06:26.360 --> 01:06:28.720
Christianity hinges on the historical

1516
01:06:28.720 --> 01:06:31.250
fact of the resurrection of Jesus, right? And so the best way

1517
01:06:31.250 --> 01:06:33.040
of explaining this is to say that

1518
01:06:33.040 --> 01:06:35.730
if your friend from Dubai starts going to church and they start

1519
01:06:35.730 --> 01:06:37.280
feeling really like meaning,

1520
01:06:37.280 --> 01:06:40.590
like experiencing a lot of meaning in their life, that has

1521
01:06:40.590 --> 01:06:43.360
absolutely no evidential bearing on whether

1522
01:06:43.360 --> 01:06:45.520
that Jesus wrote from the dead. And if Christianity as a

1523
01:06:45.520 --> 01:06:47.520
proposition essentially is the resurrection

1524
01:06:47.520 --> 01:06:50.190
of Jesus, and this feeling that your friend had has no evident

1525
01:06:50.190 --> 01:06:51.680
ial bearing on the resurrection

1526
01:06:51.680 --> 01:06:54.280
of Jesus, then the feeling that your friend had had no evident

1527
01:06:54.280 --> 01:06:55.200
ial bearing on Christmas.

1528
01:06:55.200 --> 01:06:58.480
Well, it turns out that Christianity has multiple factors of

1529
01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:01.840
support, evidence crucial, obviously,

1530
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:05.010
the crux, one might say, is the resurrection of Christ, the

1531
01:07:05.010 --> 01:07:06.320
death and resurrection,

1532
01:07:06.320 --> 01:07:09.070
because of the theological significance of that is in the whole

1533
01:07:09.070 --> 01:07:10.880
system. But there are lots

1534
01:07:10.880 --> 01:07:13.410
of other things too that I'm bearing. And actually, I think

1535
01:07:13.410 --> 01:07:16.240
there are people who have become Christians

1536
01:07:16.240 --> 01:07:19.410
without having a robust understanding even of the resurrection

1537
01:07:19.410 --> 01:07:22.640
of that. So even though theologically,

1538
01:07:22.640 --> 01:07:26.800
that is the crux, it doesn't mean that for subjectively every

1539
01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:28.720
person who enters in a relationship

1540
01:07:28.720 --> 01:07:31.690
with Christ has all of that in place. It is me. I'm really

1541
01:07:31.690 --> 01:07:33.120
interested to understand from my friend

1542
01:07:33.120 --> 01:07:36.550
in Dubai, if he came to you and he was your friend in Dubai,

1543
01:07:36.550 --> 01:07:38.960
and he said, "My life is lacking meaning,

1544
01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:44.880
I can't get out of bed anymore." What would you prescribe him?

1545
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:46.080
What would you recommend? What would you

1546
01:07:46.080 --> 01:07:51.570
suggest as he's your friend? It's hard to know without knowing

1547
01:07:51.570 --> 01:07:54.240
that friend, but if it seemed to me

1548
01:07:54.240 --> 01:07:57.770
like going church or reading the Gospels might provide that for

1549
01:07:57.770 --> 01:07:59.200
him, then I'd probably recommend

1550
01:07:59.200 --> 01:08:02.770
that he did that. But I think that literally the subjective

1551
01:08:02.770 --> 01:08:05.520
feeling of meaning is usually tied up in

1552
01:08:06.240 --> 01:08:09.610
the identification of something that transcends your individual

1553
01:08:09.610 --> 01:08:13.040
self. And I think whatever is the most

1554
01:08:13.040 --> 01:08:16.200
plausible course of action for that person to engage in

1555
01:08:16.200 --> 01:08:18.720
something like that would be what I would

1556
01:08:18.720 --> 01:08:21.670
recommend for them. If they're maybe they're not particularly

1557
01:08:21.670 --> 01:08:22.800
interested in religion, I'd

1558
01:08:22.800 --> 01:08:24.890
recommend that they read some philosophy of mind and try to

1559
01:08:24.890 --> 01:08:26.480
understand the nature of consciousness,

1560
01:08:26.480 --> 01:08:29.300
and they might start. I might recommend, depending on who they

1561
01:08:29.300 --> 01:08:30.560
are, that they take a psychedelic

1562
01:08:30.560 --> 01:08:32.970
drug and try to experience something which cannot be put into

1563
01:08:32.970 --> 01:08:34.320
words, because a lot of the time

1564
01:08:34.320 --> 01:08:37.550
when you experience something like an ego death, and you might

1565
01:08:37.550 --> 01:08:40.640
realize that the the individuated

1566
01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:43.900
self is an illusion, and that these cliches that keep cropping

1567
01:08:43.900 --> 01:08:46.000
up when someone does psychedelics.

1568
01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:48.440
And I actually think that the problem of consciousness is

1569
01:08:48.440 --> 01:08:49.680
absolutely crucial to this.

1570
01:08:49.680 --> 01:08:54.640
I mean, I think the most plausible account of consciousness

1571
01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:58.480
implies that consciousness is something

1572
01:08:58.480 --> 01:09:02.210
which is sort of received by the biological organism rather

1573
01:09:02.210 --> 01:09:04.000
than produced by it. Because I

1574
01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:05.670
agree with you that you can't just put a bunch of molecules

1575
01:09:05.670 --> 01:09:07.120
together and get consciousness. That doesn't

1576
01:09:07.120 --> 01:09:09.720
make out any sense whatsoever. But it's interesting that some

1577
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:11.520
of our best scientific evidence is

1578
01:09:11.520 --> 01:09:14.370
suggesting the fact not that the brain produces consciousness,

1579
01:09:14.370 --> 01:09:17.360
but that the brain inhibits and focuses

1580
01:09:17.360 --> 01:09:21.000
and organizes consciousness. It does not produce it. Yeah, so I

1581
01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:22.640
love your answer.

1582
01:09:22.640 --> 01:09:24.950
So you were saying, you know, depending on the person, you can

1583
01:09:24.950 --> 01:09:25.520
do different things,

1584
01:09:25.520 --> 01:09:27.380
you can read philosophy about them. But I recommend them to do

1585
01:09:27.380 --> 01:09:28.160
that in a word, you know,

1586
01:09:28.160 --> 01:09:31.330
so look at that, depending on who they are, read the gospels.

1587
01:09:31.330 --> 01:09:33.520
So I think what's interesting is that

1588
01:09:33.520 --> 01:09:36.700
when you, you know, when Steven gives the concrete example of

1589
01:09:36.700 --> 01:09:38.240
like if my friend comes to you who's

1590
01:09:38.240 --> 01:09:40.800
had this religious awakening or prior to religious awakening,

1591
01:09:40.800 --> 01:09:42.640
what would you recommend to them?

1592
01:09:42.640 --> 01:09:45.920
And I think what's really interesting is basically all of the

1593
01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:47.280
answers that you said,

1594
01:09:47.280 --> 01:09:51.440
I think can map onto mechanism. And I just love to talk about

1595
01:09:51.440 --> 01:09:52.800
that for a second. So the first

1596
01:09:52.800 --> 01:09:55.170
thing is, you know, you asked me at the beginning of my

1597
01:09:55.170 --> 01:09:57.920
religious, I think here's my understanding

1598
01:09:57.920 --> 01:10:01.710
of, and we were talking a little bit about, you know, people

1599
01:10:01.710 --> 01:10:03.040
can have the subjective feeling of

1600
01:10:03.040 --> 01:10:06.260
religion. What is the relationship to that thing being true? So

1601
01:10:06.260 --> 01:10:07.920
here's what I've sort of observed.

1602
01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:10.340
I don't know if y'all have ever been to like a really great

1603
01:10:10.340 --> 01:10:10.880
cathedral.

1604
01:10:10.880 --> 01:10:14.720
Oh, yeah. But like, you know, if you go to a great cathedral,

1605
01:10:14.720 --> 01:10:15.760
you have to be Christian

1606
01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:20.180
to be awe-inspired by what you see. So when I look at the

1607
01:10:20.180 --> 01:10:22.560
project of religion, which is a little

1608
01:10:22.560 --> 01:10:26.720
bit different from spirituality, one of the things that I've

1609
01:10:26.720 --> 01:10:29.040
observed is that religion is a series

1610
01:10:29.040 --> 01:10:34.760
of structures to evoke a personal experience. So the whole

1611
01:10:34.760 --> 01:10:38.080
point of reading the gospels is fingers crossed

1612
01:10:38.080 --> 01:10:40.970
and we'll get to how to optimize that fingers crossed. If you

1613
01:10:40.970 --> 01:10:42.560
read the gospels enough or you go

1614
01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:46.130
to church enough or you pray enough, if you keep on talking to

1615
01:10:46.130 --> 01:10:48.160
Christ, one day he'll start talking

1616
01:10:48.160 --> 01:10:51.330
back. But I think the really interesting thing is if you

1617
01:10:51.330 --> 01:10:53.360
struggle with purpose, you can read the

1618
01:10:53.360 --> 01:10:57.180
gospels. If you go into religion and I think what's changed now

1619
01:10:57.180 --> 01:10:58.560
is that we have so much

1620
01:10:58.560 --> 01:11:03.330
science to understand the mechanism through which religious

1621
01:11:03.330 --> 01:11:06.240
practices evoke subjective experience.

1622
01:11:06.240 --> 01:11:09.820
So you I can go to church until for my whole life. But until I

1623
01:11:09.820 --> 01:11:11.440
have that relationship with God,

1624
01:11:11.440 --> 01:11:15.600
that is a subjective experience that is evoked by the sort of

1625
01:11:15.600 --> 01:11:17.680
structure of the religious practice.

1626
01:11:18.400 --> 01:11:22.010
So that is absolutely one thing you can do. I think the cool

1627
01:11:22.010 --> 01:11:24.000
thing is that the problem with reading the

1628
01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:28.770
gospels is I can clearly see that you've done. And you know, I

1629
01:11:28.770 --> 01:11:31.360
see the striving for religion in you.

1630
01:11:31.360 --> 01:11:34.300
Like you're like you want to have that, right? Like you want to

1631
01:11:34.300 --> 01:11:35.440
know like what are these people

1632
01:11:35.440 --> 01:11:37.970
actually kind of talking about? I could be wrong there. But I

1633
01:11:37.970 --> 01:11:41.040
see this beautiful striving that you're

1634
01:11:41.040 --> 01:11:43.770
like you're trying really hard to figure this stuff out, which

1635
01:11:43.770 --> 01:11:44.960
is just awesome to see.

1636
01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:48.190
I think though that if we kind of look at it and you mentioned

1637
01:11:48.190 --> 01:11:49.440
kind of psychedelics as well,

1638
01:11:49.440 --> 01:11:54.000
and I think psychedelics is really interesting because we know

1639
01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:55.360
that so if you take someone who has

1640
01:11:55.360 --> 01:11:58.600
treatment refractory depression or someone who has PTSD and you

1641
01:11:58.600 --> 01:12:00.560
give them a psychedelic, the psychedelic

1642
01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:04.380
is not healing. What is healing is specifically whether they

1643
01:12:04.380 --> 01:12:07.120
have an ego death experience. So if I see

1644
01:12:07.120 --> 01:12:10.730
colors and things like that, that doesn't solve things. But the

1645
01:12:10.730 --> 01:12:12.960
ego death experience is what

1646
01:12:12.960 --> 01:12:16.550
correlates with clinical improvement. So psychedelics are a

1647
01:12:16.550 --> 01:12:17.760
good way to evoke

1648
01:12:17.760 --> 01:12:23.240
a subjective experience, right? So we know that there are a

1649
01:12:23.240 --> 01:12:24.720
couple of pieces.

1650
01:12:24.720 --> 01:12:28.420
And when I worked with people, so one of the things that we

1651
01:12:28.420 --> 01:12:30.800
know is that when you experience trauma,

1652
01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:34.980
it shatters your meaning of life. Yes. And so working a lot

1653
01:12:34.980 --> 01:12:36.320
with people with trauma,

1654
01:12:36.320 --> 01:12:39.760
and this is something that I kind of laid out in terms of like

1655
01:12:39.760 --> 01:12:41.440
making a guide about it.

1656
01:12:41.440 --> 01:12:44.420
But what I realized is that there's a set of things that you

1657
01:12:44.420 --> 01:12:46.720
can do relatively sequentially

1658
01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:50.000
to get your meaning back. And so I think the cool thing about

1659
01:12:50.000 --> 01:12:50.640
like, you know, reading the

1660
01:12:50.640 --> 01:12:53.850
gospels or psychedelics or things like that is those each have

1661
01:12:53.850 --> 01:12:57.520
some fingers crossed change in you.

1662
01:12:57.520 --> 01:13:00.180
But the cool thing is like if you start with something called a

1663
01:13:00.180 --> 01:13:00.880
lexithymia,

1664
01:13:00.880 --> 01:13:04.380
so as long as you are like using a bunch of substances, as long

1665
01:13:04.380 --> 01:13:06.960
as you are not able to detect

1666
01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:11.520
what is going on inside you, that is a fundamental prerequisite

1667
01:13:11.520 --> 01:13:13.280
of the subjective experience of

1668
01:13:13.280 --> 01:13:17.940
meaning. The second step to that is to go through some stuff

1669
01:13:17.940 --> 01:13:20.000
around ego. So this is like the other

1670
01:13:20.000 --> 01:13:22.530
like big thing that we try to focus on is like when your

1671
01:13:22.530 --> 01:13:24.400
default mode network is hyperactive,

1672
01:13:24.400 --> 01:13:27.150
this is the part of your brain that gives you a sense of who

1673
01:13:27.150 --> 01:13:29.520
you are. Hyperactive default mode

1674
01:13:29.520 --> 01:13:33.550
networks lead to depression. Hyperactive default mode networks

1675
01:13:33.550 --> 01:13:36.000
also lead to some degree of like

1676
01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:39.170
existential depression. And this is where so many of my

1677
01:13:39.170 --> 01:13:41.200
patients get tripped up when they start reading

1678
01:13:41.200 --> 01:13:43.980
philosophy. This is an against philosophy. But remember, this

1679
01:13:43.980 --> 01:13:46.000
is happening in a subjective mind.

1680
01:13:46.000 --> 01:13:49.710
If you're not careful, what we know is that philosophy can turn

1681
01:13:49.710 --> 01:13:51.600
into intellectualizing, that

1682
01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:55.380
there is a psychological defense where you start looking at

1683
01:13:55.380 --> 01:13:58.400
theoretical stuff and it sort of

1684
01:13:58.400 --> 01:14:01.310
shapes the way that your mind functions and it starts to become

1685
01:14:01.310 --> 01:14:02.160
maladaptive.

1686
01:14:02.160 --> 01:14:06.960
What does that mean in simple terms? So people, if you have a

1687
01:14:06.960 --> 01:14:08.080
problem in life,

1688
01:14:08.080 --> 01:14:11.680
you can think about it a lot. You can read about it a lot.

1689
01:14:11.680 --> 01:14:12.720
There are a lot of people that I've

1690
01:14:12.720 --> 01:14:16.420
worked with that just go on watching podcasts like chain,

1691
01:14:16.420 --> 01:14:18.640
watching podcasts and reading books and

1692
01:14:18.640 --> 01:14:22.190
things like that, right? But their life never changes. Yes. So

1693
01:14:22.190 --> 01:14:24.800
this is where, so there's a certain

1694
01:14:24.800 --> 01:14:27.970
amount of like, you know, learning how to ground yourself in

1695
01:14:27.970 --> 01:14:29.600
your experience, which involves

1696
01:14:29.600 --> 01:14:34.060
reducing exothermia, which involves dissolving your ego. And

1697
01:14:34.060 --> 01:14:35.760
this is another really, really important

1698
01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:38.930
thing that I think we find in people who have purpose, because

1699
01:14:38.930 --> 01:14:40.720
if we go back to the earlier example

1700
01:14:40.720 --> 01:14:45.570
of the person who 30 days after they die, the world ends, that

1701
01:14:45.570 --> 01:14:48.400
person, if they decide to still

1702
01:14:48.400 --> 01:14:51.700
write the book, I think that there is a certain egoless

1703
01:14:51.700 --> 01:14:54.080
involved in that, right? I'm doing it for

1704
01:14:54.080 --> 01:14:56.480
the sake of the work. It's not for the benefit of humanity. It

1705
01:14:56.480 --> 01:14:58.080
's not for some transcendent purpose.

1706
01:14:58.080 --> 01:15:00.690
It's not for something that goes beyond my death. Actually, it

1707
01:15:00.690 --> 01:15:02.640
's the opposite. I am doing this,

1708
01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:07.040
doing this thing here and now just for its own sake. And so

1709
01:15:07.040 --> 01:15:09.840
preparing for this podcast, I actually

1710
01:15:09.840 --> 01:15:12.730
texted and called a couple of my former patients. These are

1711
01:15:12.730 --> 01:15:14.320
people that I haven't seen in three

1712
01:15:14.320 --> 01:15:17.490
to five years. And I just asked them, I was like, Hey, bro, do

1713
01:15:17.490 --> 01:15:20.560
you have purpose? Tell me what it is.

1714
01:15:20.560 --> 01:15:23.920
And I was stunned by how their answers are not about what

1715
01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:25.600
happens after they die.

1716
01:15:26.480 --> 01:15:29.510
They're very like, I'm just here for the flow of it, right? My

1717
01:15:29.510 --> 01:15:31.440
purpose in life is to experience

1718
01:15:31.440 --> 01:15:34.960
what life has to offer. That's it. It's not about something

1719
01:15:34.960 --> 01:15:37.440
beyond you. And I think this is where

1720
01:15:37.440 --> 01:15:41.860
your spot on Alex, that a lot of people deal with the fear of

1721
01:15:41.860 --> 01:15:44.960
death by wanting to live past it.

1722
01:15:44.960 --> 01:15:49.440
But that is actually, that's the default mechanism that we use,

1723
01:15:49.440 --> 01:15:50.960
but that is actually ego driven,

1724
01:15:50.960 --> 01:15:55.250
right? I want to exist beyond when I die. And so that gives

1725
01:15:55.250 --> 01:15:57.840
people some sense of purpose. But I

1726
01:15:57.840 --> 01:16:02.510
think the deepest sense of purpose actually comes without that

1727
01:16:02.510 --> 01:16:04.960
comes from being able to make paper

1728
01:16:04.960 --> 01:16:08.940
clips every day and being content with that exercise. You're

1729
01:16:08.940 --> 01:16:11.280
describing Sisyphus being happy

1730
01:16:11.280 --> 01:16:14.920
is what you're doing. Yeah, so Sisyphus can be happy. Yeah. I

1731
01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:16.960
mean, that and that's

1732
01:16:16.960 --> 01:16:19.190
Sisyphus, for those that don't know about the guy pushing the

1733
01:16:19.190 --> 01:16:20.000
rock up the hill.

1734
01:16:20.000 --> 01:16:23.170
Camu, who is an existentialist, even though he doesn't call

1735
01:16:23.170 --> 01:16:24.640
himself an existentialist,

1736
01:16:24.640 --> 01:16:30.760
he found this school known as absurdism, which is a word I used

1737
01:16:30.760 --> 01:16:32.240
earlier to. And he

1738
01:16:32.240 --> 01:16:37.550
he tries to describe the absurdist condition of one in which

1739
01:16:37.550 --> 01:16:39.280
you have all of these desires about

1740
01:16:39.280 --> 01:16:42.450
the world, but the world literally just can't fulfill them. You

1741
01:16:42.450 --> 01:16:43.280
're looking for meaning.

1742
01:16:43.920 --> 01:16:46.670
It's not that it literally that you're your desire and the real

1743
01:16:46.670 --> 01:16:48.720
world are in conflict. And he

1744
01:16:48.720 --> 01:16:52.990
calls this the realization of this absurdity. And he writes

1745
01:16:52.990 --> 01:16:55.040
this this short treaty is called

1746
01:16:55.040 --> 01:16:59.000
the myth of Sisyphus, which is based on an actual ancient myth

1747
01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:00.800
of Sisyphus, who is condemned by

1748
01:17:00.800 --> 01:17:05.170
the gods as punishment to roll a boulder up a hill. And when it

1749
01:17:05.170 --> 01:17:07.280
gets to the top, it rolls back down

1750
01:17:07.280 --> 01:17:10.020
again. And he goes back down and he pushes the boulder up to

1751
01:17:10.020 --> 01:17:12.080
the top of the hill. And he does that

1752
01:17:12.080 --> 01:17:15.520
over and over again for eternity. The real torture of this is

1753
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:17.200
not so much the suffering of the

1754
01:17:17.200 --> 01:17:20.150
pushing of the boulder. There's that. But the suffering in the

1755
01:17:20.150 --> 01:17:22.000
knowledge that it's meaningless.

1756
01:17:22.000 --> 01:17:25.590
And that that describes the absurdist condition. And Albert Cam

1757
01:17:25.590 --> 01:17:27.440
u tries to respond to this

1758
01:17:27.440 --> 01:17:30.920
by imagining Sisyphus being happy and essentially as an act of

1759
01:17:30.920 --> 01:17:32.800
rebellion against this condition,

1760
01:17:32.800 --> 01:17:35.350
just getting on with it anyway and being okay with it. I've

1761
01:17:35.350 --> 01:17:38.080
never been fulfilled by this. I've

1762
01:17:38.080 --> 01:17:40.330
sort of always thought that this may literally, and I

1763
01:17:40.330 --> 01:17:42.240
understand that there are people who could do

1764
01:17:42.240 --> 01:17:45.290
that. There are people who could write the book. And I thought

1765
01:17:45.290 --> 01:17:47.440
of Sisyphus when you said the person

1766
01:17:47.440 --> 01:17:49.710
who writes the book anyway, because it almost feels like an act

1767
01:17:49.710 --> 01:17:51.120
of rebellion. Because it's not,

1768
01:17:51.120 --> 01:17:53.120
you didn't just say they still write the book, you said they

1769
01:17:53.120 --> 01:17:54.800
write the book anyway. They do it

1770
01:17:54.800 --> 01:17:57.650
despite, they do it almost in protest of this condition. Some

1771
01:17:57.650 --> 01:17:59.600
people can do that. But I think that

1772
01:17:59.600 --> 01:18:03.040
that is probably a sort of psychological cope.

1773
01:18:03.040 --> 01:18:07.350
No, it's not, it's not a cope. It's a mechanism. What I'm

1774
01:18:07.350 --> 01:18:08.640
saying, I think it's a cope.

1775
01:18:08.640 --> 01:18:12.820
I think that it's not grounded in anything rational. I don't

1776
01:18:12.820 --> 01:18:14.640
know if it's grounded in anything

1777
01:18:14.640 --> 01:18:18.000
rational. It's absolutely grounded in something empirical. Sure

1778
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:20.400
, but like again, you can empirically

1779
01:18:20.400 --> 01:18:23.290
like explain exactly why somebody's brain is doing what it's

1780
01:18:23.290 --> 01:18:25.840
doing, but that doesn't mean that

1781
01:18:25.840 --> 01:18:28.580
that there's any rationality or truth in the thing that their

1782
01:18:28.580 --> 01:18:30.640
brain believes. Sure.

1783
01:18:31.440 --> 01:18:34.780
Right. I think this goes back to the issue of whether there's

1784
01:18:34.780 --> 01:18:36.720
capital P, but I think that you can,

1785
01:18:36.720 --> 01:18:41.820
you can observe the world and you can make observations and you

1786
01:18:41.820 --> 01:18:43.200
can, I don't know what your

1787
01:18:43.200 --> 01:18:46.700
relation to scientific observations and truth is, whether those

1788
01:18:46.700 --> 01:18:48.400
things are connected or not.

1789
01:18:48.400 --> 01:18:51.690
But I think that we know actually, there are multiple

1790
01:18:51.690 --> 01:18:53.440
psychological mechanisms,

1791
01:18:53.440 --> 01:18:56.800
some of which are copes and some of which are not copes.

1792
01:18:57.680 --> 01:19:00.460
I suppose I mean like a philosophical, I mean like it's not, I

1793
01:19:00.460 --> 01:19:02.080
think it's untrue. I think that the

1794
01:19:02.080 --> 01:19:06.450
person who is content in such a condition is almost by

1795
01:19:06.450 --> 01:19:08.160
definition, delusory.

1796
01:19:08.160 --> 01:19:09.840
What does delusory mean?

1797
01:19:09.840 --> 01:19:13.860
Like under the influence of a delusion, I think that it is not

1798
01:19:13.860 --> 01:19:16.000
a happiness inducing condition

1799
01:19:16.000 --> 01:19:19.600
to be sort of us rolling his boulder up the mountain. Yeah. So

1800
01:19:19.600 --> 01:19:21.200
this is where I think the data's

1801
01:19:21.200 --> 01:19:24.550
actually against that. So what the data shows is that it is

1802
01:19:24.550 --> 01:19:27.600
your attitude towards the circumstance

1803
01:19:27.680 --> 01:19:30.850
of your life that determines your happiness or your lack of

1804
01:19:30.850 --> 01:19:31.520
happiness.

1805
01:19:31.520 --> 01:19:33.880
Well, someone can be in a happy delusion. In fact, that's why

1806
01:19:33.880 --> 01:19:35.280
most people suffer from delusions

1807
01:19:35.280 --> 01:19:37.860
because it makes them happy. That's not why most people suffer

1808
01:19:37.860 --> 01:19:38.880
from delusions.

1809
01:19:38.880 --> 01:19:42.970
So, but you understand, you understand what I'm saying that

1810
01:19:42.970 --> 01:19:44.800
like like, yeah, I understand what you're

1811
01:19:44.800 --> 01:19:47.350
saying. I just, I just think that it's, you can't empirically

1812
01:19:47.350 --> 01:19:48.480
show that something is not a

1813
01:19:48.480 --> 01:19:51.900
delusion because it makes people happy. Yeah. So you can

1814
01:19:51.900 --> 01:19:54.640
absolutely differentiate between a

1815
01:19:54.640 --> 01:19:58.820
psychological cope and an attitude towards life that is not a

1816
01:19:58.820 --> 01:20:01.120
cope. And the reason you can differentiate

1817
01:20:01.120 --> 01:20:04.490
that is because of what is underneath and people can be

1818
01:20:04.490 --> 01:20:06.960
delusional, but they're not necessarily

1819
01:20:06.960 --> 01:20:09.790
delusional to make themselves happy. In fact, quite the

1820
01:20:09.790 --> 01:20:13.040
opposite. So we have diagnoses like

1821
01:20:13.040 --> 01:20:16.740
schizophrenia of which one of them is having delusions. And

1822
01:20:16.740 --> 01:20:19.520
those delusions, generally speaking,

1823
01:20:19.520 --> 01:20:23.080
the more schizophrenic and the stronger your delusions are, the

1824
01:20:23.080 --> 01:20:25.280
more that inversely correlates with

1825
01:20:25.280 --> 01:20:27.350
your happiness. To be clear, I'm talking about like a

1826
01:20:27.350 --> 01:20:29.120
philosophical delusion. The question I want to

1827
01:20:29.120 --> 01:20:31.980
get an answer to is this idea of the person who writes the book

1828
01:20:31.980 --> 01:20:33.120
or pushes the boulder at the

1829
01:20:33.120 --> 01:20:38.000
hill and can that person be have a purposeful life? Absolutely.

1830
01:20:38.000 --> 01:20:39.200
So this is what this is what's so

1831
01:20:39.200 --> 01:20:42.700
confusing for people is that people think. So what Alex is

1832
01:20:42.700 --> 01:20:44.960
saying, I think is a really, really

1833
01:20:44.960 --> 01:20:48.790
common representation of what people think about purpose. My

1834
01:20:48.790 --> 01:20:50.880
purpose is to make something that is

1835
01:20:50.880 --> 01:20:54.360
greater than me. My purpose is to have some meaning or impact

1836
01:20:54.360 --> 01:20:56.400
in the world around me. What we know

1837
01:20:56.400 --> 01:20:59.160
is there's a great example of this called self-determination

1838
01:20:59.160 --> 01:21:01.200
theory, which is that if you ask people,

1839
01:21:01.200 --> 01:21:04.040
if you look at people who have purpose, what you find is it's

1840
01:21:04.040 --> 01:21:05.760
not about anything transcendent.

1841
01:21:05.760 --> 01:21:07.640
Have purpose or have a sense of purpose. Have a sense of

1842
01:21:07.640 --> 01:21:08.080
purpose.

1843
01:21:08.080 --> 01:21:12.170
Okay. We're asking them subjectively, right? So if we're like,

1844
01:21:12.170 --> 01:21:14.000
like, you know, that's what I think

1845
01:21:14.000 --> 01:21:16.940
and these people are less likely to be addicted to things or

1846
01:21:16.940 --> 01:21:18.800
more resilient tend to be subjectively

1847
01:21:18.800 --> 01:21:21.460
happier as well. So we're talking about subjective, right? What

1848
01:21:21.460 --> 01:21:23.280
you find is that they have three things.

1849
01:21:23.280 --> 01:21:26.240
The first is that they have some degree of self-direction. So

1850
01:21:26.240 --> 01:21:29.520
this is like, I choose to do something.

1851
01:21:29.520 --> 01:21:32.740
They're not just taking it from life. They're making choices.

1852
01:21:32.740 --> 01:21:34.720
And this is where people also get

1853
01:21:34.720 --> 01:21:37.890
confused because they think like which choice is right. That

1854
01:21:37.890 --> 01:21:39.680
kind of thinking is actually irrelevant.

1855
01:21:39.680 --> 01:21:42.410
There isn't a right choice or wrong choice. What correlates

1856
01:21:42.410 --> 01:21:44.400
with your sense of direction is whether

1857
01:21:44.400 --> 01:21:47.570
you make it or not. So you actually need to get away from the

1858
01:21:47.570 --> 01:21:49.120
concept of right and wrong.

1859
01:21:49.120 --> 01:21:51.200
The second thing is that they need a stretching of their

1860
01:21:51.200 --> 01:21:53.680
competence. So if you just take a bunch of

1861
01:21:53.680 --> 01:21:59.120
people who are not being pushed and finding themselves grow,

1862
01:21:59.120 --> 01:22:01.520
then their sense of direction or

1863
01:22:01.520 --> 01:22:04.190
purpose will decrease. And the third thing is a sense of

1864
01:22:04.190 --> 01:22:06.960
relatedness. So there's something where

1865
01:22:07.680 --> 01:22:12.830
I have to know who I am and have other people see that part of

1866
01:22:12.830 --> 01:22:15.280
me. And if you cultivate

1867
01:22:15.280 --> 01:22:19.740
these three variables, then your purpose will empirically, and

1868
01:22:19.740 --> 01:22:22.080
by empirical, what I mean is that

1869
01:22:22.080 --> 01:22:26.020
we can measureably, we can literally measure people's

1870
01:22:26.020 --> 01:22:29.120
subjective experience in an objective way.

1871
01:22:29.120 --> 01:22:33.430
And so like these kinds of things, I think can end up improving

1872
01:22:33.430 --> 01:22:34.400
your purpose.

1873
01:22:34.400 --> 01:22:37.290
What are you measuring when you're looking for? Alex, I just

1874
01:22:37.290 --> 01:22:38.640
would love to get your answer to this

1875
01:22:38.640 --> 01:22:41.330
idea. Can you do you think the person who is pushing the

1876
01:22:41.330 --> 01:22:42.960
boulder at the hill or is right in the

1877
01:22:42.960 --> 01:22:47.620
wood, even though the world's about to end, can still genuinely

1878
01:22:47.620 --> 01:22:49.440
live a subjectively and by

1879
01:22:49.440 --> 01:22:55.490
subjective I mean in their opinion, purposeful life? Yes. Yeah,

1880
01:22:55.490 --> 01:22:56.960
absolutely. I think

1881
01:22:56.960 --> 01:23:01.230
Sisyphus can be happy, but I think that's not the attitude that

1882
01:23:01.230 --> 01:23:03.120
I would have. And I don't

1883
01:23:03.120 --> 01:23:06.700
for myself find it satisfying any analogy, which is

1884
01:23:06.700 --> 01:23:10.640
sufficiently similar to the Sisyphus condition

1885
01:23:10.640 --> 01:23:13.850
that is in the attempted solution as well, just imagine Sisyph

1886
01:23:13.850 --> 01:23:15.200
us happy. And that's how he

1887
01:23:15.200 --> 01:23:18.520
literally ends the myth of Sisyphus. One must imagine Sisyphus

1888
01:23:18.520 --> 01:23:20.960
happy, and I can imagine him and say,

1889
01:23:20.960 --> 01:23:23.780
you know, good for him. Do you think that would be if you

1890
01:23:23.780 --> 01:23:28.000
believed in Greg's views of the world?

1891
01:23:28.000 --> 01:23:31.540
Or most certainly, but not because of Greg's views, but because

1892
01:23:31.540 --> 01:23:33.280
of the confidence and satisfaction

1893
01:23:33.280 --> 01:23:36.120
that they bring. I think I'd feel just as much meaning in my

1894
01:23:36.120 --> 01:23:38.160
life as I was a convicted Muslim,

1895
01:23:38.160 --> 01:23:41.990
or where I, a Jane, or something like that, I think I would

1896
01:23:41.990 --> 01:23:44.720
find that film. So the content of the

1897
01:23:44.720 --> 01:23:48.910
theology has no bearing in your mind on the way a person

1898
01:23:48.910 --> 01:23:51.120
experiences their life.

1899
01:23:51.120 --> 01:23:54.960
So of course it does. Can you explain the consistency? Well,

1900
01:23:54.960 --> 01:23:56.400
the content, well, you talk about

1901
01:23:56.400 --> 01:23:58.950
different religions and there's these different religions there

1902
01:23:58.950 --> 01:24:00.960
and yet, the, they cannot all be

1903
01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:03.910
true as Alex is pointed out. They have different content. They

1904
01:24:03.910 --> 01:24:05.600
say different things about human

1905
01:24:05.600 --> 01:24:11.480
human beings. For example, the, the, the view of the human

1906
01:24:11.480 --> 01:24:14.880
beings are just an illusion, the

1907
01:24:14.880 --> 01:24:17.160
reality is illusion, my own, that kind of thing. Well, that

1908
01:24:17.160 --> 01:24:19.760
seems to me to convey a certain

1909
01:24:19.760 --> 01:24:22.930
understanding to human beings about themselves and about the

1910
01:24:22.930 --> 01:24:25.360
world. If you have a view that human

1911
01:24:25.360 --> 01:24:28.370
beings are significant individuals, this is going to convey a

1912
01:24:28.370 --> 01:24:30.160
whole different experience that they

1913
01:24:30.160 --> 01:24:34.680
have. So in other words, the theology that they believe is true

1914
01:24:34.680 --> 01:24:36.640
is going to affect their feelings

1915
01:24:36.640 --> 01:24:39.650
and their experiences. This is what I was getting back at a

1916
01:24:39.650 --> 01:24:42.080
little bit ago when I talked about the

1917
01:24:42.080 --> 01:24:44.730
person whose life has been changed by becoming a Christian and

1918
01:24:44.730 --> 01:24:47.040
this aren't just what you

1919
01:24:47.040 --> 01:24:49.140
explained to your friend. These are not things that just

1920
01:24:49.140 --> 01:24:50.800
happened here and there, but there seems to

1921
01:24:50.800 --> 01:24:54.450
be a very, very broad experience of this. And a change that

1922
01:24:54.450 --> 01:24:56.560
doesn't depend on circumstances.

1923
01:24:56.560 --> 01:25:01.770
Okay. It's because they adopt a understanding of the world that

1924
01:25:01.770 --> 01:25:03.200
I think is an accurate

1925
01:25:03.200 --> 01:25:05.750
understanding and this is why their emotions and their

1926
01:25:05.750 --> 01:25:07.600
experience follows along because they're

1927
01:25:07.600 --> 01:25:10.950
choosing an accurate understanding of the world. When you look

1928
01:25:10.950 --> 01:25:12.640
at Jesus, the gospels, I think it's

1929
01:25:12.640 --> 01:25:15.860
so interesting to me that people read the gospels to be upl

1930
01:25:15.860 --> 01:25:18.160
ifted by the reading of it. It seems that

1931
01:25:18.160 --> 01:25:21.600
this is the point that Jesus is talking about the way the world

1932
01:25:21.600 --> 01:25:23.600
is. He's teaching about the nature

1933
01:25:23.600 --> 01:25:27.040
of reality. He was a Torah observant Jew. He wasn't a Hindu. He

1934
01:25:27.040 --> 01:25:29.280
wasn't a Buddhist. He was a Jew.

1935
01:25:29.280 --> 01:25:33.460
And he spoke in the context of that. Okay. So just to simply

1936
01:25:33.460 --> 01:25:35.840
read the gospels as if we're going to

1937
01:25:35.840 --> 01:25:39.010
read the some nice things that people said to make me feel

1938
01:25:39.010 --> 01:25:41.520
better is missing Jesus point when he's

1939
01:25:41.520 --> 01:25:43.880
trying to describe the nature of reality. I don't think that

1940
01:25:43.880 --> 01:25:44.880
other gospels should be read,

1941
01:25:44.880 --> 01:25:47.550
but I do think so. I mean, I have a question for you on that.

1942
01:25:47.550 --> 01:25:48.480
This is a personal question more than

1943
01:25:48.480 --> 01:25:51.660
anything. So I find myself in the same position as Alex where I

1944
01:25:51.660 --> 01:25:53.200
think I'd be happier, all things

1945
01:25:53.200 --> 01:25:57.450
considered if I had an anchoring in a religion. I think that's

1946
01:25:57.450 --> 01:26:00.000
like a subjectively true that I'd

1947
01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:05.150
be happier. Um, probably just because it would close a gap of

1948
01:26:05.150 --> 01:26:07.120
some sort. It would anchor me in some

1949
01:26:07.120 --> 01:26:10.290
way, answer a question. It would answer a question and then it

1950
01:26:10.290 --> 01:26:11.840
would give me more of a

1951
01:26:11.840 --> 01:26:16.060
structure to my decision making. And you know, it would mean

1952
01:26:16.060 --> 01:26:18.320
that when I have moments of suffering,

1953
01:26:18.320 --> 01:26:21.490
I'd have a solution to that moment of suffering except my

1954
01:26:21.490 --> 01:26:22.960
parents end up dying someday,

1955
01:26:22.960 --> 01:26:26.160
which I'm sure they will. I will believe that they are still

1956
01:26:26.160 --> 01:26:27.360
alive and they are somewhere

1957
01:26:27.360 --> 01:26:30.530
in their fine, which will ease my suffering. So I agree with

1958
01:26:30.530 --> 01:26:32.800
Alex in that regard. The problem I have

1959
01:26:32.800 --> 01:26:35.970
is in order to adopt that view, I need some kind of, I need to

1960
01:26:35.970 --> 01:26:38.560
believe it. It's true. Like people can't

1961
01:26:38.560 --> 01:26:42.410
aren't very good at lying to themselves. And also when you talk

1962
01:26:42.410 --> 01:26:45.360
about my friend in Dubai has

1963
01:26:45.360 --> 01:26:48.670
had this experience, he now feels better. He could have well

1964
01:26:48.670 --> 01:26:50.480
felt better. I believe if he had

1965
01:26:50.480 --> 01:26:57.600
believed that Islam was true and become a Muslim. So it's the

1966
01:26:57.600 --> 01:26:59.600
feeling itself, people can get

1967
01:26:59.600 --> 01:27:02.310
a lot of ways. I know people that actually would tell you that

1968
01:27:02.310 --> 01:27:03.600
they feel better now that they're

1969
01:27:03.600 --> 01:27:06.620
out of the coat and they're agnostic. Sure. And the coat made

1970
01:27:06.620 --> 01:27:08.080
them feel terrible. Now they're

1971
01:27:08.080 --> 01:27:11.890
agnostic. They feel better. Does that mean agnosticism is truth

1972
01:27:11.890 --> 01:27:14.400
? So the presumption that you made

1973
01:27:14.400 --> 01:27:17.030
is a presumption. We have to keep that in mind. I mean, the

1974
01:27:17.030 --> 01:27:18.480
people that I have talked to

1975
01:27:18.480 --> 01:27:22.020
who are former Muslims and are now Christians, very devout

1976
01:27:22.020 --> 01:27:25.360
Muslims, they did not have the experience

1977
01:27:25.360 --> 01:27:29.590
of satisfaction, fullness and connection with God with in Islam

1978
01:27:29.590 --> 01:27:31.120
that they do in Christianity.

1979
01:27:31.120 --> 01:27:34.150
Okay. So we want to be careful that we know there are people

1980
01:27:34.150 --> 01:27:35.040
who just don't believe it.

1981
01:27:35.040 --> 01:27:36.630
Yeah, there's people that would have gone the other way and

1982
01:27:36.630 --> 01:27:37.600
they'll be in the comment section

1983
01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:40.460
right now saying, well, I went from Christianity to Islam. Okay

1984
01:27:40.460 --> 01:27:42.640
. Well, sure, I'm just telling you what I

1985
01:27:42.640 --> 01:27:46.800
what I know of those people. Okay. And it, I think it's a

1986
01:27:46.800 --> 01:27:48.720
mistake to say, well, everybody has

1987
01:27:48.720 --> 01:27:50.980
their own religion. They have their some experience with their

1988
01:27:50.980 --> 01:27:52.080
religion because I don't think

1989
01:27:52.080 --> 01:27:54.640
that's the case. I'm not saying they are satisfied Muslims.

1990
01:27:54.640 --> 01:27:56.400
That's not what I'm saying or Buddhist

1991
01:27:56.400 --> 01:28:00.300
or Hindus or whatever. But what I'm saying is the, the, there

1992
01:28:00.300 --> 01:28:03.040
is an evidential element to the

1993
01:28:03.040 --> 01:28:05.930
change life. Okay. And it may not be decisive. There may be

1994
01:28:05.930 --> 01:28:08.000
other things that are involved. Okay.

1995
01:28:08.000 --> 01:28:11.170
I do think that for many Christians, I think you've made this

1996
01:28:11.170 --> 01:28:12.480
point in the past two. It's the

1997
01:28:12.480 --> 01:28:15.800
experience with God that makes the difference, but it's not

1998
01:28:15.800 --> 01:28:17.600
that the other evidence is for the

1999
01:28:17.600 --> 01:28:20.770
existence of God, maybe philosophical type of evidence haven't

2000
01:28:20.770 --> 01:28:22.320
made a difference because I've talked to

2001
01:28:22.320 --> 01:28:25.490
lots of people where they have made the difference moving them

2002
01:28:25.490 --> 01:28:26.400
in that direction.

2003
01:28:26.400 --> 01:28:29.280
The point never, it's evidential. That's a presumption.

2004
01:28:29.280 --> 01:28:35.840
What I mean by evidential is that there is information that can

2005
01:28:35.840 --> 01:28:37.520
be brought to bear that seems to be

2006
01:28:37.520 --> 01:28:42.850
evidence, um, indicating that the belief system is true. Is

2007
01:28:42.850 --> 01:28:43.760
that a presumption?

2008
01:28:45.040 --> 01:28:46.910
I don't know why you would call it a presumption. In the

2009
01:28:46.910 --> 01:28:49.040
evidence that evidence that

2010
01:28:49.040 --> 01:28:52.680
Christianity is true from the increased sense of purpose that

2011
01:28:52.680 --> 01:28:54.640
people get from becoming a Christian.

2012
01:28:54.640 --> 01:28:58.480
I think that's one of the evidence. It's a subject of evidence.

2013
01:28:58.480 --> 01:28:58.720
Yeah.

2014
01:28:58.720 --> 01:29:02.000
So, I mean, it's the truth of Christianity. Well, I wouldn't

2015
01:29:02.000 --> 01:29:03.360
build the whole thing, but it's

2016
01:29:03.360 --> 01:29:05.800
evident. It's contributing evidence to the absolute truth. Yeah

2017
01:29:05.800 --> 01:29:07.840
. Think of it as Christianity as well.

2018
01:29:07.840 --> 01:29:12.620
The story of reality is simply that God made us to be with him.

2019
01:29:12.620 --> 01:29:14.560
And then we find the way

2020
01:29:14.560 --> 01:29:17.420
that God intends for us to connect with him principally through

2021
01:29:17.420 --> 01:29:19.440
forgiveness and be restored

2022
01:29:19.440 --> 01:29:22.610
to our relationship with the Father. And then that gives us,

2023
01:29:22.610 --> 01:29:24.320
when we do that, a deep sense of

2024
01:29:24.320 --> 01:29:28.340
satisfaction, I do think that's evidential. You know, in Alex

2025
01:29:28.340 --> 01:29:30.080
field, he could explain that through

2026
01:29:30.080 --> 01:29:34.450
neuroscience, right? So, yeah. So, can I go back to something

2027
01:29:34.450 --> 01:29:35.920
real quick?

2028
01:29:35.920 --> 01:29:38.830
So, you know, I was thinking about the Sisyphus example. And I

2029
01:29:38.830 --> 01:29:40.160
was just thinking to myself,

2030
01:29:40.720 --> 01:29:44.380
you know, so many people go to the gym to do futile physical

2031
01:29:44.380 --> 01:29:47.200
activity, but not on its own

2032
01:29:47.200 --> 01:29:51.040
for eternity with no sense in which it's improving their life.

2033
01:29:51.040 --> 01:29:52.560
Right? Imagine going to the gym

2034
01:29:52.560 --> 01:29:55.740
and not only is it not making you healthier, it's actually just

2035
01:29:55.740 --> 01:29:57.600
making you fatter, and you have to do

2036
01:29:57.600 --> 01:30:01.760
it forever for the rest of eternity for no reason with no end.

2037
01:30:01.760 --> 01:30:03.600
And then someone says, well,

2038
01:30:03.600 --> 01:30:06.130
you've got to do with imagine that person being happy. Yeah. So

2039
01:30:06.130 --> 01:30:07.280
, that's kind of interesting because

2040
01:30:07.280 --> 01:30:12.640
then that presumes that the attitude through which you approach

2041
01:30:12.640 --> 01:30:15.600
the action is what determines it.

2042
01:30:15.600 --> 01:30:18.380
The determines what determines whether you're happy or not,

2043
01:30:18.380 --> 01:30:20.880
right? So, every time you eat,

2044
01:30:20.880 --> 01:30:24.180
you buy yourself a trip to the toilet. This is something you

2045
01:30:24.180 --> 01:30:25.280
can never escape. Sure.

2046
01:30:25.280 --> 01:30:28.060
It is true for all time. And yet, how do you feel about going

2047
01:30:28.060 --> 01:30:28.960
to the toilet?

2048
01:30:28.960 --> 01:30:34.170
I'm maybe I'm misunderstanding what you get. So, I think it's

2049
01:30:34.170 --> 01:30:36.400
interesting, right? Because the

2050
01:30:36.400 --> 01:30:40.310
problem of Sisyphus is in the way that he views it. And this is

2051
01:30:40.310 --> 01:30:41.920
exactly why I think the paper clip

2052
01:30:41.920 --> 01:30:45.140
example is like actually such a good one because I think what

2053
01:30:45.140 --> 01:30:46.800
we find when we look at some of these

2054
01:30:46.800 --> 01:30:49.760
things like radical acceptance, dialectical behavioral therapy,

2055
01:30:49.760 --> 01:30:52.000
sort of the ways in which people

2056
01:30:52.000 --> 01:30:56.240
become happy despite the fact that there are painful things in

2057
01:30:56.240 --> 01:30:58.640
life. It is an attitudinal shift.

2058
01:30:58.640 --> 01:31:01.000
Totally. I think I think one of the reasons why it might seem

2059
01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:02.240
like we keep talking across

2060
01:31:02.240 --> 01:31:07.050
purposes is because I think you are offering an explanation for

2061
01:31:07.050 --> 01:31:09.120
why people feel a particular way.

2062
01:31:09.120 --> 01:31:12.580
And I'm trying to see whether those feelings are. Shall we say

2063
01:31:12.580 --> 01:31:14.080
philosophically validated?

2064
01:31:14.080 --> 01:31:18.270
Whether they are, those feelings are our sense of to truth. If

2065
01:31:18.270 --> 01:31:19.680
the way you feel about the world

2066
01:31:19.680 --> 01:31:25.200
is accurate. So, I can perfectly understand that it's possible

2067
01:31:25.200 --> 01:31:26.880
for Sisyphus to be happy.

2068
01:31:26.880 --> 01:31:30.510
What I'm saying is that I think that the philosophical underpin

2069
01:31:30.510 --> 01:31:32.000
ning that would be required

2070
01:31:32.000 --> 01:31:36.400
for him to be content in that condition is unsatisfying at

2071
01:31:36.400 --> 01:31:41.520
least to me. So what is a philosophical

2072
01:31:41.520 --> 01:31:45.320
truth? I mean, maybe I shouldn't say philosophical truth, but I

2073
01:31:45.320 --> 01:31:47.280
mean to separate it from what you

2074
01:31:47.280 --> 01:31:50.930
might describe as like a neurological truth, which is to say it

2075
01:31:50.930 --> 01:31:52.480
could be true that your brain

2076
01:31:52.480 --> 01:31:56.570
believes this or believes that based on this or that condition.

2077
01:31:56.570 --> 01:31:57.920
I'm saying that totally.

2078
01:31:57.920 --> 01:32:00.640
But what I'm interested in is the thing that it believes, is it

2079
01:32:00.640 --> 01:32:03.680
true or false. It could be in the

2080
01:32:03.680 --> 01:32:07.030
same way that believing in Christianity can make you happy, it

2081
01:32:07.030 --> 01:32:08.800
can make you sad, and you can

2082
01:32:08.800 --> 01:32:11.610
scan someone's brain, you can put the MRI scanner and scan

2083
01:32:11.610 --> 01:32:13.360
their brain when they, at the moment

2084
01:32:13.360 --> 01:32:15.660
they convert Christianity and see that it starts going, "Hey,

2085
01:32:15.660 --> 01:32:18.320
what?" But the brain's not going to show

2086
01:32:18.320 --> 01:32:20.550
any beliefs. It shows you the truth and the very logical

2087
01:32:20.550 --> 01:32:21.200
activity. Exactly.

2088
01:32:21.200 --> 01:32:24.370
Exactly. The beliefs aren't in the brain. Yeah, we're going to

2089
01:32:24.370 --> 01:32:24.880
get to that.

2090
01:32:24.880 --> 01:32:29.360
I kind of agree. So Alex, I think this is what I think you so

2091
01:32:29.360 --> 01:32:30.240
much for pointing out how we're

2092
01:32:30.240 --> 01:32:32.790
kind of talking across each other because I think this is the

2093
01:32:32.790 --> 01:32:34.960
really weird thing. I'm going to say

2094
01:32:34.960 --> 01:32:37.320
something and then as we talk about consciousness and what we

2095
01:32:37.320 --> 01:32:38.960
just talked about, I'm going to torpedo

2096
01:32:38.960 --> 01:32:43.190
it. But I think what we sort of find is that from a practical

2097
01:32:43.190 --> 01:32:45.680
sense and this could be where like

2098
01:32:45.680 --> 01:32:51.520
philosophy, I don't know how the word practical ties together

2099
01:32:51.520 --> 01:32:54.000
with philosophy because I tend to think

2100
01:32:54.000 --> 01:32:56.360
of philosophy is sort of practical. We can go into that in a

2101
01:32:56.360 --> 01:32:59.440
second. But I think from the perspective of

2102
01:32:59.440 --> 01:33:03.840
finding purpose. Now, I'm not talking about purpose as a

2103
01:33:03.840 --> 01:33:07.280
capital P truth, right? Look, capital T

2104
01:33:07.280 --> 01:33:12.620
truth. Finding purpose, what it may not be philosophically

2105
01:33:12.620 --> 01:33:15.840
satisfying to you, but what we sort of

2106
01:33:15.840 --> 01:33:19.820
know from empirical evidence of people who are purposeless and

2107
01:33:19.820 --> 01:33:22.480
people who are purposeful is that

2108
01:33:22.480 --> 01:33:26.350
the subjective feeling of purpose is comes out of a number of

2109
01:33:26.350 --> 01:33:28.560
different things. Like I mentioned,

2110
01:33:28.560 --> 01:33:31.610
like kind of autonomy, being able to detect your emotions, also

2111
01:33:31.610 --> 01:33:33.440
a sense of like narrative identity.

2112
01:33:33.440 --> 01:33:37.230
So having a purpose in life requires a you and one of the

2113
01:33:37.230 --> 01:33:40.160
reasons that no one feels like they are

2114
01:33:40.160 --> 01:33:42.440
going somewhere in life is because they don't really have a

2115
01:33:42.440 --> 01:33:43.680
clear sense of who they are.

2116
01:33:43.680 --> 01:33:48.780
And so I think that it's a great kind of catch that we're sort

2117
01:33:48.780 --> 01:33:50.720
of talking across purposes because

2118
01:33:50.720 --> 01:33:53.890
I don't know the thing that you find philosophically not

2119
01:33:53.890 --> 01:33:56.400
philosophically true, maybe neurologically true,

2120
01:33:56.400 --> 01:33:59.800
but isn't philosophically true. I don't know how to approach

2121
01:33:59.800 --> 01:34:02.400
that. I mean, I think I sort of do,

2122
01:34:02.400 --> 01:34:04.760
because if we talk about consciousness and subjective

2123
01:34:04.760 --> 01:34:06.320
experience and how your friend was

2124
01:34:06.320 --> 01:34:08.610
transformed. And by the way, he may not be transformed. So

2125
01:34:08.610 --> 01:34:09.760
there's a speaking of coping.

2126
01:34:09.760 --> 01:34:13.000
There's a chance that when someone drastically joins a religion

2127
01:34:13.000 --> 01:34:14.400
and like this is great,

2128
01:34:14.400 --> 01:34:17.670
that is like the mother of all copes, right? So sometimes they

2129
01:34:17.670 --> 01:34:19.440
find they adopt the it's not

2130
01:34:19.440 --> 01:34:22.350
identity formation. It's actually identification where like, I

2131
01:34:22.350 --> 01:34:23.840
'm going to join this team and now I'm

2132
01:34:23.840 --> 01:34:26.500
on this team and now that I have this team, now I know who I am

2133
01:34:26.500 --> 01:34:28.080
, now I have a purpose like everything

2134
01:34:28.080 --> 01:34:31.560
kind of gets laid out. But oftentimes this is also why religion

2135
01:34:31.560 --> 01:34:33.920
is not like 100% at giving people

2136
01:34:33.920 --> 01:34:37.090
happiness and things like that because there is an internal

2137
01:34:37.090 --> 01:34:39.200
subjective experience of a relationship

2138
01:34:39.200 --> 01:34:41.590
with God or something like that, which I think we can say a way

2139
01:34:41.590 --> 01:34:43.440
to consciousness. That's ultimately

2140
01:34:43.440 --> 01:34:46.290
what determines whether you feel really good about it. And then

2141
01:34:46.290 --> 01:34:48.160
the other really interesting thing is

2142
01:34:49.120 --> 01:34:53.780
Through some of those subjective experiences, I think we, the

2143
01:34:53.780 --> 01:34:56.080
people who have these subjective experiences

2144
01:34:56.080 --> 01:35:00.240
believe that it gives them access to truth with a hierarchy,

2145
01:35:00.240 --> 01:35:02.960
like the Gnostics and folks like that.

2146
01:35:02.960 --> 01:35:08.600
I did something at 24 years old that has had a profound impact

2147
01:35:08.600 --> 01:35:10.480
on my life. I set myself

2148
01:35:10.480 --> 01:35:12.720
the challenge of posting every single day on my social media

2149
01:35:12.720 --> 01:35:14.160
channels. And at the time,

2150
01:35:14.160 --> 01:35:17.100
I was doing it to grow my following, but I had this profound

2151
01:35:17.100 --> 01:35:18.960
impact on my life and two remarkable

2152
01:35:18.960 --> 01:35:21.690
things happened when I did that. I managed to learn faster

2153
01:35:21.690 --> 01:35:23.520
because every single day I'm capturing

2154
01:35:23.520 --> 01:35:26.100
what is happening to me and trying to distill it down into

2155
01:35:26.100 --> 01:35:28.240
something that I can share with the world.

2156
01:35:28.240 --> 01:35:31.480
But more remarkably, it led me to building a following of many

2157
01:35:31.480 --> 01:35:32.960
millions of people and that's the

2158
01:35:32.960 --> 01:35:35.560
basis that I used to launch the driver's CEO. And that's why I

2159
01:35:35.560 --> 01:35:36.560
want to tell you about our

2160
01:35:36.560 --> 01:35:39.770
sponsor today Adobe Express. They are the platform that I use

2161
01:35:39.770 --> 01:35:41.280
to make all the posts across my

2162
01:35:41.280 --> 01:35:44.450
LinkedIn and across my Instagram. It's a couple of clicks and

2163
01:35:44.450 --> 01:35:46.160
you don't need to be an expert

2164
01:35:46.160 --> 01:35:48.300
And that is why I love using it because I'm not an expert in

2165
01:35:48.300 --> 01:35:50.160
graphic design. It's accessible to

2166
01:35:50.160 --> 01:35:53.320
use for all of us, even if we don't have the technical prowess

2167
01:35:53.320 --> 01:35:54.960
to design great things. So if you

2168
01:35:54.960 --> 01:35:57.400
want to start compounding both your reach and your knowledge

2169
01:35:57.400 --> 01:35:58.720
like I did at 24 years old,

2170
01:35:58.720 --> 01:36:05.150
then head to adobe.ly/steven and get started with Adobe Express

2171
01:36:05.150 --> 01:36:07.440
. That's adobe.ly/steven.

2172
01:36:07.440 --> 01:36:11.360
Let me just bring it back down to some of the popular questions

2173
01:36:11.360 --> 01:36:12.400
we had from our audience. One of

2174
01:36:12.400 --> 01:36:16.560
the most popular questions we had is, do we each have a

2175
01:36:16.560 --> 01:36:19.600
specific purpose or is it self-chosen and Greg?

2176
01:36:19.600 --> 01:36:24.490
Well, my view, if God has made us for a reason and he wants us

2177
01:36:24.490 --> 01:36:27.200
to be in relationship with us,

2178
01:36:27.200 --> 01:36:30.370
each individual person has different capabilities and

2179
01:36:30.370 --> 01:36:33.120
fulfilling those capabilities that God has

2180
01:36:33.120 --> 01:36:36.850
given him, general ones and specific ones like I have my own

2181
01:36:36.850 --> 01:36:39.280
particular peculiar capabilities,

2182
01:36:39.280 --> 01:36:43.590
doing that is going to make me satisfied, okay? So did God give

2183
01:36:43.590 --> 01:36:44.560
me a purpose?

2184
01:36:44.560 --> 01:36:48.720
Yes. And is it different from Alex's purpose? I would say in

2185
01:36:48.720 --> 01:36:50.960
the kind of the minutiae,

2186
01:36:50.960 --> 01:36:53.510
yes, you're a different individual than he is. Can I just do a

2187
01:36:53.510 --> 01:36:55.120
question that then springs to mind?

2188
01:36:55.120 --> 01:36:58.480
Yeah. Again, I'm very curious. If Steven Butler had gotten

2189
01:36:58.480 --> 01:37:00.400
cancer at one years old and I died,

2190
01:37:00.400 --> 01:37:04.160
I see. Yeah. Well, then you wouldn't be fulfilling the

2191
01:37:04.160 --> 01:37:07.040
particulars that God had intended for you,

2192
01:37:07.040 --> 01:37:09.650
but that kind of thing happens because we live in a broken

2193
01:37:09.650 --> 01:37:12.240
world. It isn't the perfect world,

2194
01:37:12.240 --> 01:37:15.520
it is that the good, it's not the totally good moral that God

2195
01:37:15.520 --> 01:37:16.000
made,

2196
01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:20.370
something happened that broke the world, human rebellion, human

2197
01:37:20.370 --> 01:37:21.120
rebellion.

2198
01:37:21.120 --> 01:37:25.190
At what point in history? Well, early on with our first parents

2199
01:37:25.190 --> 01:37:27.120
, okay. So the first humans,

2200
01:37:27.120 --> 01:37:30.660
the first humans, that's why all humans since then, what about

2201
01:37:30.660 --> 01:37:32.480
the same proclivity towards evil?

2202
01:37:32.480 --> 01:37:35.060
That includes pretty much quantifiable. Is that include other

2203
01:37:35.060 --> 01:37:35.840
species of human?

2204
01:37:35.840 --> 01:37:38.720
I'm an Neanderthal. Well, I know that's a question that a lot

2205
01:37:38.720 --> 01:37:40.240
of people are discussing right now.

2206
01:37:40.240 --> 01:37:42.770
Okay. And where exactly do you draw their line? And I'm not

2207
01:37:42.770 --> 01:37:45.040
that is the area that I go deep in,

2208
01:37:45.040 --> 01:37:48.340
but I do think that there was a an original progenitor to the

2209
01:37:48.340 --> 01:37:49.840
human races we understand it

2210
01:37:49.840 --> 01:37:55.170
right now. So that has the image of God and man and violated

2211
01:37:55.170 --> 01:37:56.640
God's commands,

2212
01:37:56.640 --> 01:38:00.060
rebelled against God, and that had an impact on the world. Okay

2213
01:38:00.060 --> 01:38:01.360
. And that is why they're

2214
01:38:01.360 --> 01:38:06.320
for us. That is why people aren't going to be fulfilling all of

2215
01:38:06.320 --> 01:38:08.560
their the ultimate purposes that

2216
01:38:08.560 --> 01:38:13.920
God has for them. Just to be clear, children get cancer. Sure.

2217
01:38:13.920 --> 01:38:17.360
Because say two million years ago,

2218
01:38:17.360 --> 01:38:19.740
roughly started the human species. I'm not going to set a date

2219
01:38:19.740 --> 01:38:23.040
on it. Somebody rebelled against

2220
01:38:23.040 --> 01:38:26.540
God's commands. And that is the explanation for that. This is a

2221
01:38:26.540 --> 01:38:28.560
fair question. And some of these

2222
01:38:28.560 --> 01:38:30.890
details I haven't worked out what about earthquakes and tsunam

2223
01:38:30.890 --> 01:38:32.160
is and all those kinds of things.

2224
01:38:32.160 --> 01:38:36.320
Okay. Clearly there is an impact of human rebellion upon the

2225
01:38:36.320 --> 01:38:38.880
earth. Okay. What the extent of that

2226
01:38:38.880 --> 01:38:42.050
impact is, I'm not entirely sure. But this is why you use the

2227
01:38:42.050 --> 01:38:43.760
word broken because it's a rather

2228
01:38:43.760 --> 01:38:47.260
broad term rather than trying to identify every instance of

2229
01:38:47.260 --> 01:38:49.360
things that seem anomalous to a good

2230
01:38:49.360 --> 01:38:52.970
world. Not the way it should be, so to speak. Okay. I think

2231
01:38:52.970 --> 01:38:54.400
that's an explanation for these

2232
01:38:54.400 --> 01:38:57.700
things, even though we can't necessarily itemize each

2233
01:38:57.700 --> 01:38:59.920
individual particular instance

2234
01:38:59.920 --> 01:39:02.280
and how it falls short. Alex, I want to put the same question

2235
01:39:02.280 --> 01:39:03.120
to you, which is,

2236
01:39:03.120 --> 01:39:06.720
do you think that you were born with a purpose that was endowed

2237
01:39:06.720 --> 01:39:07.600
for your life?

2238
01:39:07.600 --> 01:39:10.470
No, not in the literal sense. I think that there are that I was

2239
01:39:10.470 --> 01:39:11.120
born with

2240
01:39:11.120 --> 01:39:15.430
literal like proclivities built into my consciousness and my

2241
01:39:15.430 --> 01:39:16.160
DNA's.

2242
01:39:17.840 --> 01:39:21.860
Almost once the tendency is a great word. Yeah. For example, my

2243
01:39:21.860 --> 01:39:24.560
tendency to eat food.

2244
01:39:24.560 --> 01:39:28.200
I don't think I learned that. I think I was born with it. But

2245
01:39:28.200 --> 01:39:30.400
it's like, I would use the language of

2246
01:39:30.400 --> 01:39:33.000
what when you say, if you said, do you think that you were, you

2247
01:39:33.000 --> 01:39:35.600
were given hunger from birth? I could

2248
01:39:35.600 --> 01:39:38.770
like, no, in a poetic sense, maybe. What I mean, say, as I was

2249
01:39:38.770 --> 01:39:40.160
born with this thing called hunger,

2250
01:39:40.160 --> 01:39:42.280
which I didn't learn, which was just a part of my makeup, I

2251
01:39:42.280 --> 01:39:43.760
think the same thing is true for many

2252
01:39:43.760 --> 01:39:47.470
motivations of life, such as the sort of meaning that you might

2253
01:39:47.470 --> 01:39:49.280
report feeling. I think it's there

2254
01:39:49.280 --> 01:39:51.810
from from childbirth. Same question for you. I like, do you

2255
01:39:51.810 --> 01:39:54.400
think that we each have a specific purpose

2256
01:39:54.400 --> 01:39:57.880
or is it self-chosen? I think it's both. So I'm going to

2257
01:39:57.880 --> 01:40:00.240
introduce two concepts that we haven't

2258
01:40:00.240 --> 01:40:03.170
talked about yet. The heart of mind and karma. And I think

2259
01:40:03.170 --> 01:40:06.400
these are concepts that are sometimes

2260
01:40:06.400 --> 01:40:08.760
hard to understand. I'm going to do my best to kind of speedrun

2261
01:40:08.760 --> 01:40:10.240
them. So the heart of my is

2262
01:40:10.240 --> 01:40:14.030
the Sanskrit word that kind of gets translated as duty. The way

2263
01:40:14.030 --> 01:40:15.360
that I would describe the

2264
01:40:15.360 --> 01:40:18.320
hard mother reason, I think it's so important is right now, if

2265
01:40:18.320 --> 01:40:20.160
we look at the world, people are like

2266
01:40:20.160 --> 01:40:24.710
not having a good time. And oftentimes what they do is they're

2267
01:40:24.710 --> 01:40:27.120
stuck between this choice of

2268
01:40:27.120 --> 01:40:30.290
doing what they want and doing what they should. So doing what

2269
01:40:30.290 --> 01:40:32.080
they want is maybe dopaminergic is

2270
01:40:32.080 --> 01:40:35.910
maybe fun in some way, doing what they should is like painful

2271
01:40:35.910 --> 01:40:39.520
in some way. So for me, what I think

2272
01:40:39.520 --> 01:40:41.920
dharma is dharma is like sort of duty. But I think the key

2273
01:40:41.920 --> 01:40:43.680
thing that helps people once they find

2274
01:40:43.680 --> 01:40:47.840
their dharma is it's what allows you to choose the negative

2275
01:40:47.840 --> 01:40:50.560
thing. It's what allows you to choose

2276
01:40:50.560 --> 01:40:54.350
the hard thing. So if someone points a gun at me and I look at

2277
01:40:54.350 --> 01:40:56.640
that gun, that gun means pain, suffering,

2278
01:40:56.640 --> 01:41:00.060
death, you know, my life will end and then I will have nothing

2279
01:41:00.060 --> 01:41:02.560
to leave behind me. So my purpose will

2280
01:41:02.560 --> 01:41:06.410
end. So I try to move away from that thing. But if someone

2281
01:41:06.410 --> 01:41:08.880
points the gun at my child because I have

2282
01:41:08.880 --> 01:41:11.740
this overwhelming sense of love and joy or whatever, I step

2283
01:41:11.740 --> 01:41:13.280
into the path of that thing.

2284
01:41:13.280 --> 01:41:18.760
So I think once we understand what our duty is, that gives us a

2285
01:41:18.760 --> 01:41:20.320
sense of tethering,

2286
01:41:20.320 --> 01:41:23.600
it gives us a sense of direction. I think what confuses a lot

2287
01:41:23.600 --> 01:41:25.040
of people is that they think

2288
01:41:25.040 --> 01:41:28.220
duty is like some transcendental, it's like a big thing, like

2289
01:41:28.220 --> 01:41:29.680
duty with a capital D, like I was

2290
01:41:29.680 --> 01:41:33.100
born on this earth to do these like particular big tasks, like

2291
01:41:33.100 --> 01:41:34.480
I need to say cure cancer or

2292
01:41:34.480 --> 01:41:38.640
something like that. Oftentimes, the harma is really small. So

2293
01:41:38.640 --> 01:41:40.640
the way duty is not transcendent and it's

2294
01:41:40.640 --> 01:41:44.420
not tied to some moral transcendent thing. I think I don't know

2295
01:41:44.420 --> 01:41:46.560
about moral. So this is where I think

2296
01:41:46.560 --> 01:41:50.160
like I said should, yeah, sure should. So that's usually a

2297
01:41:50.160 --> 01:41:51.680
moral term in the west.

2298
01:41:51.680 --> 01:41:54.450
Right. So I think there's a whole different set of axioms. I'm

2299
01:41:54.450 --> 01:41:55.840
using the harma and that's what

2300
01:41:55.840 --> 01:41:58.720
people will like put morality onto the harma where I don't

2301
01:41:58.720 --> 01:42:00.400
think that that's actually fair.

2302
01:42:00.960 --> 01:42:05.120
So going back to I have a duty just to give another example and

2303
01:42:05.120 --> 01:42:07.040
y'all can decide whether this is

2304
01:42:07.040 --> 01:42:10.210
mortal or not. But when I'm sort of working in the emergency

2305
01:42:10.210 --> 01:42:12.400
room and you know a patient walks in,

2306
01:42:12.400 --> 01:42:15.040
I have a duty to that patient. So a lot of people don't

2307
01:42:15.040 --> 01:42:16.720
understand about Dharmaya's that it is

2308
01:42:16.720 --> 01:42:20.640
very environmentally determined. So your Dharmaya will depend

2309
01:42:20.640 --> 01:42:23.280
somewhat on the family that you have,

2310
01:42:23.280 --> 01:42:25.660
the responsibilities that you have. If you have children, you

2311
01:42:25.660 --> 01:42:27.040
have a Dharmaya to those people.

2312
01:42:27.920 --> 01:42:30.610
So I think that's one part of what we would call purpose. I

2313
01:42:30.610 --> 01:42:32.240
think the other part of purpose and I

2314
01:42:32.240 --> 01:42:35.800
think this gets really closer to the more Western conception is

2315
01:42:35.800 --> 01:42:38.720
karma. So going back to your question

2316
01:42:38.720 --> 01:42:43.120
about, you know, if a child with with cancer dies at the age of

2317
01:42:43.120 --> 01:42:45.600
one, is their purpose fulfilled,

2318
01:42:45.600 --> 01:42:48.440
arguably yes, because that could have been their purpose in

2319
01:42:48.440 --> 01:42:49.600
this life. Right. So their

2320
01:42:49.600 --> 01:42:52.370
purpose could have been. So there's a really interesting story

2321
01:42:52.370 --> 01:42:53.760
about, you know, many years ago,

2322
01:42:53.760 --> 01:42:56.810
there was a, there were a group of angels. This I'm just going

2323
01:42:56.810 --> 01:42:58.640
to use the Western terminology. They

2324
01:42:58.640 --> 01:43:03.010
have us who disturbed Shiva in his meditation. And so he cursed

2325
01:43:03.010 --> 01:43:05.040
them and he said, I'm going to,

2326
01:43:05.040 --> 01:43:07.610
the curse that you guys are going to do is y'all are going to

2327
01:43:07.610 --> 01:43:09.600
be born on the earth for one lifetime

2328
01:43:09.600 --> 01:43:11.970
of a human. And then that they have us were like, Oh my God,

2329
01:43:11.970 --> 01:43:13.280
like this is terrible. Like we're

2330
01:43:13.280 --> 01:43:15.900
going to be cursed to be born on the earth and the earth is

2331
01:43:15.900 --> 01:43:17.840
full of suffering and cysticis and there's

2332
01:43:17.840 --> 01:43:21.760
no meaning with a capital M. So then they go to Shiva's

2333
01:43:21.760 --> 01:43:24.560
daughter and they ask her, Hey, can you help

2334
01:43:24.560 --> 01:43:28.520
us out? Like, can you please go talk to your dad? Can you

2335
01:43:28.520 --> 01:43:30.560
please get him to change his sentence? And

2336
01:43:30.560 --> 01:43:32.990
she says that she was never going to change a sentence. That's

2337
01:43:32.990 --> 01:43:34.720
impossible to do. He's also kind of

2338
01:43:34.720 --> 01:43:37.510
this embodiment of karma and things like that. But so he says,

2339
01:43:37.510 --> 01:43:40.320
but I can help y'all out. What I can do

2340
01:43:40.320 --> 01:43:43.100
is I'm going to be born with y'all. And then there's this other

2341
01:43:43.100 --> 01:43:45.600
story in the Mahabharat where basically

2342
01:43:45.600 --> 01:43:48.420
she has seven children and then she drowns them the day after

2343
01:43:48.420 --> 01:43:50.880
they're born. And so she says,

2344
01:43:50.880 --> 01:43:53.280
the technical situation is you're going to be born for one

2345
01:43:53.280 --> 01:43:54.880
lifetime. I can make a lifetime

2346
01:43:54.880 --> 01:43:59.440
happen in a moment. Now, I don't know if that's true. I don't

2347
01:43:59.440 --> 01:44:00.560
know if that's moral. I don't

2348
01:44:00.560 --> 01:44:03.110
know if it's mythology. But a potential explanation for why

2349
01:44:03.110 --> 01:44:04.800
children get cancer. It's a potential

2350
01:44:04.800 --> 01:44:08.090
explanation for why children get cancer. Now, I think the the

2351
01:44:08.090 --> 01:44:09.840
garma thing is when you said,

2352
01:44:09.840 --> 01:44:13.140
is your purpose in life predetermined? So I think that you

2353
01:44:13.140 --> 01:44:16.960
inherit a certain amount of circumstances

2354
01:44:16.960 --> 01:44:21.990
and that part of your purpose will be in relation to the

2355
01:44:21.990 --> 01:44:24.800
circumstances that you inherit.

2356
01:44:24.800 --> 01:44:27.350
But the other thing about karma, which I think a lot of people

2357
01:44:27.350 --> 01:44:28.480
misunderstand is they think that

2358
01:44:28.480 --> 01:44:32.080
it means destiny. I think all it means is Newton's sort of law,

2359
01:44:32.080 --> 01:44:33.280
which is every action has an

2360
01:44:33.280 --> 01:44:37.440
equal and opposite reaction that while you may inherit a set of

2361
01:44:37.440 --> 01:44:41.360
circumstances, the way that you act

2362
01:44:41.360 --> 01:44:45.790
is sowing seeds for your future life. So this is where, like,

2363
01:44:45.790 --> 01:44:47.600
you know, I know I'm introducing

2364
01:44:47.600 --> 01:44:51.760
a bunch of concepts. And it's interesting. I, you know, we we

2365
01:44:51.760 --> 01:44:53.760
started a membership program here at

2366
01:44:53.760 --> 01:44:56.740
Healthy Gamer. And part of the reason we did that is because a

2367
01:44:56.740 --> 01:44:58.480
lot of these concepts, if you turn

2368
01:44:58.480 --> 01:45:01.650
them into like 50 minute YouTube videos, people just end up

2369
01:45:01.650 --> 01:45:02.960
with more questions than answers.

2370
01:45:02.960 --> 01:45:05.390
So we go into a lot of depth. And I think it requires some

2371
01:45:05.390 --> 01:45:07.120
depth because I'm sure everybody who's

2372
01:45:07.120 --> 01:45:10.050
listening has a ton of questions. But in order to succinctly

2373
01:45:10.050 --> 01:45:12.400
answer your question, I would say that,

2374
01:45:12.400 --> 01:45:16.880
yeah, you were born for, I don't know about a specific reason,

2375
01:45:16.880 --> 01:45:18.880
but there's a set of different things

2376
01:45:18.880 --> 01:45:22.880
which only you can do. Like you are a unique set of genetics,

2377
01:45:22.880 --> 01:45:24.880
you are a unique set of experiences,

2378
01:45:24.880 --> 01:45:28.360
you are a unique set of psychology. And this process in

2379
01:45:28.360 --> 01:45:30.880
psychiatry is something that we call

2380
01:45:30.880 --> 01:45:34.360
meaning making helps a lot when people have trauma. Right. So

2381
01:45:34.360 --> 01:45:36.640
to help someone understand why did this

2382
01:45:36.640 --> 01:45:41.200
terrible thing happen to you? And once you make meaning from it

2383
01:45:41.200 --> 01:45:42.880
, that helps you adaptively.

2384
01:45:42.880 --> 01:45:46.600
But I think that it's also not like predestined and necessarily

2385
01:45:46.600 --> 01:45:48.320
you can procrastinate

2386
01:45:48.320 --> 01:45:50.970
on fulfilling your carmas. And then they'll just keep coming

2387
01:45:50.970 --> 01:45:51.360
back.

2388
01:45:51.360 --> 01:45:54.550
So, Dr. Kay, I still have a question about this. You talk about

2389
01:45:54.550 --> 01:45:55.760
duty and I'd asked about

2390
01:45:55.760 --> 01:45:58.390
morality there and you kind of backed off on that. Well, not

2391
01:45:58.390 --> 01:45:59.680
really. But then you use the word

2392
01:45:59.680 --> 01:46:02.970
obligation and emergency room. And it sounds to me when you

2393
01:46:02.970 --> 01:46:04.640
talk about those things,

2394
01:46:04.640 --> 01:46:08.340
you are actually invoking moral categories. Things you ought to

2395
01:46:08.340 --> 01:46:09.920
do, you have an obligation to do,

2396
01:46:09.920 --> 01:46:12.700
you have a duty to do, maybe the right thing, you didn't use

2397
01:46:12.700 --> 01:46:14.240
this phrase. But it sounds like you

2398
01:46:14.240 --> 01:46:17.490
say, and this is the right thing to do, the virtuous thing to

2399
01:46:17.490 --> 01:46:19.200
do, as opposed to the wrong thing

2400
01:46:19.200 --> 01:46:23.360
to do. So, how might I understand those phrases if they are not

2401
01:46:23.360 --> 01:46:25.200
really invoking genuine moral

2402
01:46:25.200 --> 01:46:31.360
categories? So, when you say moral categories, are you

2403
01:46:31.360 --> 01:46:35.040
referring to a transcendental right or wrong?

2404
01:46:35.040 --> 01:46:38.640
I'm talking about ethical principles, ethical rights and wrong.

2405
01:46:38.640 --> 01:46:40.480
They are transcendent because they're

2406
01:46:40.480 --> 01:46:44.850
not simply in the molecules, as it were. They're above us. Okay

2407
01:46:44.850 --> 01:46:46.720
. So, yes, in that sense.

2408
01:46:46.720 --> 01:46:50.730
Okay. Yeah. And there are consequences to our behaviors one way

2409
01:46:50.730 --> 01:46:51.920
or another. And the consequences,

2410
01:46:51.920 --> 01:46:57.310
it's not just utilitarian. It's not just, well, if I put toast

2411
01:46:57.310 --> 01:46:59.200
into long, it'll burn the toast.

2412
01:46:59.200 --> 01:47:02.950
But you ought to do the things that you just described. You

2413
01:47:02.950 --> 01:47:04.800
ought to help that person. Okay.

2414
01:47:04.800 --> 01:47:09.180
I think it's fairly common sensible word, a moral category for

2415
01:47:09.180 --> 01:47:11.120
a true vice kind of thing.

2416
01:47:11.120 --> 01:47:15.280
I think whether it's common, sensical depends on what's common,

2417
01:47:15.280 --> 01:47:16.560
right? So, I think that this is

2418
01:47:16.560 --> 01:47:22.450
where these concepts I don't think are one to one. So, I think

2419
01:47:22.450 --> 01:47:23.760
doing your dharma is basically the way

2420
01:47:23.760 --> 01:47:27.850
I would describe your dharma is when I throw a ball in the air,

2421
01:47:27.850 --> 01:47:30.080
it comes down. Okay. Right. So,

2422
01:47:30.080 --> 01:47:34.640
dharma is kind of doing what is the second part of what you've

2423
01:47:34.640 --> 01:47:36.560
kind of signed up for.

2424
01:47:36.560 --> 01:47:39.110
So, when you say you ought to help the person in the emergency

2425
01:47:39.110 --> 01:47:40.800
room, all you mean is you're not

2426
01:47:40.800 --> 01:47:45.800
morally compelled to do that in terms of a virtue, but there is

2427
01:47:45.800 --> 01:47:48.880
a consequence for you to do that as

2428
01:47:48.880 --> 01:47:52.380
opposed to doing the opposite. Yes. And I think there isn't a

2429
01:47:52.380 --> 01:47:54.240
layer of morality, but that is not

2430
01:47:54.240 --> 01:47:57.410
within dharma. So, for example, there are yamas and yamas,

2431
01:47:57.410 --> 01:47:59.360
which are things like truthfulness,

2432
01:47:59.360 --> 01:48:02.050
a hymsa, which means nonviolence. So, there's a set of

2433
01:48:02.050 --> 01:48:04.160
different things that we would generally

2434
01:48:04.160 --> 01:48:07.500
speaking call morality and doing those things as usually in

2435
01:48:07.500 --> 01:48:09.760
accordance with dharma. But, you know,

2436
01:48:09.760 --> 01:48:13.480
the maha part is a great case of someone saying, I don't want

2437
01:48:13.480 --> 01:48:15.200
to kill my cousins and I don't

2438
01:48:15.200 --> 01:48:18.920
want to kill my teacher. And Krishna saying, you absolutely

2439
01:48:18.920 --> 01:48:20.800
should because it is in accordance with

2440
01:48:20.800 --> 01:48:24.650
dharma. So, I think dharma oftentimes gets like translated over

2441
01:48:24.650 --> 01:48:26.320
to morality, but I think you lose

2442
01:48:26.320 --> 01:48:28.540
something in translation. Great. Can I ask you, do you think

2443
01:48:28.540 --> 01:48:30.160
you have that you can have a fulfilling

2444
01:48:30.160 --> 01:48:34.530
life without having a transcendent purpose? In some measure, in

2445
01:48:34.530 --> 01:48:36.720
some measure, what I described earlier

2446
01:48:36.720 --> 01:48:39.600
is if God made us for a purpose and made the world for human

2447
01:48:39.600 --> 01:48:41.360
flourishing. And I think we get a

2448
01:48:41.360 --> 01:48:43.960
basic description of that in the beginning of our story, for

2449
01:48:43.960 --> 01:48:46.000
example, then people who don't even

2450
01:48:46.000 --> 01:48:51.340
believe in God or even about, even anything religious at all,

2451
01:48:51.340 --> 01:48:53.840
if they fall within the pattern

2452
01:48:53.840 --> 01:48:56.740
of the things that God has created for flourishing, they're

2453
01:48:56.740 --> 01:48:58.480
going to flourish in some significant

2454
01:48:58.480 --> 01:49:01.380
measure. You mentioned a few moments ago about having children

2455
01:49:01.380 --> 01:49:02.880
and this is somewhat of a universal

2456
01:49:02.880 --> 01:49:05.130
experience. Now, you made a kind of a naturalistic

2457
01:49:05.130 --> 01:49:08.720
characterization of why we feel that way. My sense is

2458
01:49:08.720 --> 01:49:11.890
that God made us for that purpose be fruitful, multiply, subdue

2459
01:49:11.890 --> 01:49:13.520
. And subdue doesn't mean rape,

2460
01:49:13.520 --> 01:49:16.940
the earth, it means to work productively. What God has given us

2461
01:49:16.940 --> 01:49:19.680
to serve. Now, somebody can get married

2462
01:49:19.680 --> 01:49:25.180
and stay married and have children and fulfill that purpose

2463
01:49:25.180 --> 01:49:28.480
there and be very satisfied in doing it

2464
01:49:28.480 --> 01:49:31.780
as opposed to all kinds of other variations that's just going

2465
01:49:31.780 --> 01:49:33.280
to mess up their life. And they're

2466
01:49:33.280 --> 01:49:36.490
going to experience satisfaction and fulfillment in it. But

2467
01:49:36.490 --> 01:49:38.320
that's because they're in a certain sense,

2468
01:49:38.320 --> 01:49:43.280
they're doing the things that God has made human beings to do

2469
01:49:43.280 --> 01:49:44.400
so that they would flourish.

2470
01:49:44.400 --> 01:49:47.920
It's just like you can think of it in very mechanistic terms.

2471
01:49:47.920 --> 01:49:49.200
You have a vehicle that

2472
01:49:49.200 --> 01:49:51.420
meant to operate a certain way. And if you do the things

2473
01:49:51.420 --> 01:49:53.200
properly for that vehicle, it's going to

2474
01:49:53.200 --> 01:49:56.060
run well and do. So I can have a, I can have a grand feeling of

2475
01:49:56.060 --> 01:49:58.320
purpose. If I do many of the

2476
01:49:58.480 --> 01:50:02.340
things that are considered virtuous within scripture without

2477
01:50:02.340 --> 01:50:03.760
needing to believe.

2478
01:50:03.760 --> 01:50:07.810
Yeah, you could still be virtuous. Certainly you can do those

2479
01:50:07.810 --> 01:50:09.920
things. My argument, this was getting

2480
01:50:09.920 --> 01:50:13.820
at a little earlier, Dr. K is that if, if there is no God

2481
01:50:13.820 --> 01:50:16.320
establishing a right wrong, then there

2482
01:50:16.320 --> 01:50:19.490
is no right and wrong because there is no law that we're, we're

2483
01:50:19.490 --> 01:50:21.840
, we're conforming ourselves too.

2484
01:50:21.840 --> 01:50:24.490
We're just doing stuff. All right. Now, if you believe this

2485
01:50:24.490 --> 01:50:26.160
sort of evolutionary perspective,

2486
01:50:26.160 --> 01:50:29.860
I don't know. Take it as a whole. I don't know. Not the way

2487
01:50:29.860 --> 01:50:32.000
that our Alexis take it as a

2488
01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:34.530
grand explanation of pretty much everything. It's not an

2489
01:50:34.530 --> 01:50:36.080
explanation of everything. It's an explanation

2490
01:50:36.080 --> 01:50:38.970
of the variance of life on earth. Because evolution does, I was

2491
01:50:38.970 --> 01:50:40.080
thinking about my dog,

2492
01:50:40.080 --> 01:50:42.220
thinking about Pablo, and I was thinking, why does he have sex

2493
01:50:42.220 --> 01:50:43.680
with other dogs? Why does he,

2494
01:50:43.680 --> 01:50:46.980
why does he protect his puppies? Yeah. Yeah. Why does he do

2495
01:50:46.980 --> 01:50:49.280
these things that it's somewhat in

2496
01:50:49.280 --> 01:50:53.200
Dr. K's example where he takes care of things. He takes care of

2497
01:50:53.200 --> 01:50:54.320
me when I'm not in the house,

2498
01:50:54.320 --> 01:50:56.880
if someone comes in and my girlfriend's there, he takes care of

2499
01:50:56.880 --> 01:50:58.880
my girlfriend he box. So anyone,

2500
01:50:58.880 --> 01:51:01.810
she's, she's in a home alone. So he seems to be expressing some

2501
01:51:01.810 --> 01:51:04.320
form of morality. He seems to

2502
01:51:04.320 --> 01:51:07.220
understand his own sort of idea of right and wrong. But I, as

2503
01:51:07.220 --> 01:51:09.600
well, I wouldn't characterize it that,

2504
01:51:09.600 --> 01:51:12.640
that way. As if he's thinking, I ought to do this. And if I don

2505
01:51:12.640 --> 01:51:14.240
't do that, then I'm doing something

2506
01:51:14.240 --> 01:51:17.940
wrong. I think animals have instincts that they're in, in, in,

2507
01:51:17.940 --> 01:51:19.680
imbued with that can be influenced

2508
01:51:19.680 --> 01:51:23.040
by natural factors to some degree, I guess. But they are made

2509
01:51:23.040 --> 01:51:25.200
for purposes. And this is the reason

2510
01:51:25.200 --> 01:51:28.680
that many of the creatures act the way they do is because of

2511
01:51:28.680 --> 01:51:30.960
these very sophisticated instincts

2512
01:51:30.960 --> 01:51:35.000
that allow them to get along in life and do well. I don't have

2513
01:51:35.000 --> 01:51:36.800
any reason I think that there's,

2514
01:51:36.800 --> 01:51:39.580
yeah, survive and reproduce, of course. But I don't have any

2515
01:51:39.580 --> 01:51:41.360
reason I think that they're thinking,

2516
01:51:41.360 --> 01:51:45.330
I'm doing the moral thing. And if they didn't do the thing that

2517
01:51:45.330 --> 01:51:47.840
we would be, it would be appropriate to

2518
01:51:47.840 --> 01:51:50.790
which it cures them of doing something immoral for us. History

2519
01:51:50.790 --> 01:51:53.680
has almost shown that even in times

2520
01:51:53.680 --> 01:51:56.400
where we look back and go, that was not the moral thing, like,

2521
01:51:56.400 --> 01:51:58.640
you know, that season in World War II.

2522
01:51:58.640 --> 01:52:02.530
They acted in a way that was help them survive in the context

2523
01:52:02.530 --> 01:52:04.560
they're in. So the Nazi that would,

2524
01:52:04.560 --> 01:52:06.640
you know, go to the concentration camp that come home and be

2525
01:52:06.640 --> 01:52:07.840
really nice to his family. He thought

2526
01:52:07.840 --> 01:52:10.520
he was doing the right thing. This is why one of the reasons I

2527
01:52:10.520 --> 01:52:12.080
think this is the evolutionary

2528
01:52:12.080 --> 01:52:15.380
explanation is inadequate, okay? Because it seems that there

2529
01:52:15.380 --> 01:52:17.280
are lots of things that people do that

2530
01:52:17.280 --> 01:52:20.450
seem to be good for them or for their tribe that character

2531
01:52:20.450 --> 01:52:23.040
istically will look at and will assess it.

2532
01:52:23.040 --> 01:52:26.700
And the assessment is that that is wrong. It's evil. It's

2533
01:52:26.700 --> 01:52:28.800
wicked. And I think that our assessments

2534
01:52:28.800 --> 01:52:32.300
are reliable in that regard, okay, that we have moral intu

2535
01:52:32.300 --> 01:52:34.240
itions that allow us to see things

2536
01:52:34.240 --> 01:52:36.770
that are real about that. And these things are relatively

2537
01:52:36.770 --> 01:52:38.480
universal. I mean, it doesn't matter where

2538
01:52:38.480 --> 01:52:40.840
you live or when you live, people are asking the question about

2539
01:52:40.840 --> 01:52:42.800
the problem of evil in the world, okay?

2540
01:52:42.800 --> 01:52:45.500
And I think it's an information of what evil was, seems to

2541
01:52:45.500 --> 01:52:47.200
change over time because me,

2542
01:52:47.200 --> 01:52:49.830
I mean, I wouldn't be sad at this table many a couple hundred

2543
01:52:49.830 --> 01:52:51.200
years ago because I'm black

2544
01:52:51.200 --> 01:52:55.000
and everybody at the time thought that that was the right thing

2545
01:52:55.000 --> 01:52:56.000
. They didn't think that

2546
01:52:56.000 --> 01:52:58.360
was an evil thing at the time. Well, everybody at the time didn

2547
01:52:58.360 --> 01:53:00.080
't think that. There are going to be

2548
01:53:00.080 --> 01:53:03.720
social moorays and that are going to change over time and do

2549
01:53:03.720 --> 01:53:05.600
people do respond in different ways.

2550
01:53:05.600 --> 01:53:08.580
But just because you have variations in the way people believe

2551
01:53:08.580 --> 01:53:09.520
about morality,

2552
01:53:09.520 --> 01:53:13.010
it doesn't mean that there isn't a morality that's a sound

2553
01:53:13.010 --> 01:53:14.720
morality. And Lewis is,

2554
01:53:14.720 --> 01:53:17.660
see us Lewis has done a study of this, looked at the kinds of

2555
01:53:17.660 --> 01:53:20.080
things that seem to transcend

2556
01:53:20.080 --> 01:53:23.380
culture in terms of assessments, moral assessments that seem to

2557
01:53:23.380 --> 01:53:25.200
be true about every culture.

2558
01:53:25.200 --> 01:53:29.200
A lot of times the differences are not differences in moral

2559
01:53:29.200 --> 01:53:32.160
facts, but they're like the

2560
01:53:32.160 --> 01:53:35.520
morality has actually changed, but a difference in perception,

2561
01:53:35.520 --> 01:53:38.080
okay? So what counts as

2562
01:53:38.080 --> 01:53:42.100
heroism in some cases would not count as heroism in other cases

2563
01:53:42.100 --> 01:53:43.920
, even though heroism is considered a

2564
01:53:43.920 --> 01:53:46.780
noble kind of thing. I've been waiting for an opportunity to re

2565
01:53:46.780 --> 01:53:48.400
wind to the fact that we just brushed

2566
01:53:48.400 --> 01:53:53.200
over to of what I think are the best available, at least first

2567
01:53:53.200 --> 01:53:55.760
again to mine explanations as to

2568
01:53:55.760 --> 01:54:00.760
why children get cancer. And I just wondered as a question

2569
01:54:00.760 --> 01:54:04.560
whether you consider whether

2570
01:54:04.560 --> 01:54:07.500
your explanation sounds to you, as your explanation sounds to

2571
01:54:07.500 --> 01:54:09.200
you, as I think both of them sound to

2572
01:54:09.200 --> 01:54:11.820
me and I don't know how they sound to you, the idea that the

2573
01:54:11.820 --> 01:54:14.880
thing that we are most fundamentally

2574
01:54:14.880 --> 01:54:18.400
confronted with, I think on an existential level is suffering.

2575
01:54:18.400 --> 01:54:21.040
And there's our own suffering,

2576
01:54:21.040 --> 01:54:23.110
and then there's the suffering of others, and the seemingly

2577
01:54:23.110 --> 01:54:24.880
meaningless suffering of a child who's

2578
01:54:24.880 --> 01:54:30.440
undergoing cancer and does not survive it. And I'm told that in

2579
01:54:30.440 --> 01:54:36.960
the face of such existential tragedy

2580
01:54:36.960 --> 01:54:40.580
I turn to religion to give us a sort of sense of fulfillment

2581
01:54:40.580 --> 01:54:42.400
and sense of explanation,

2582
01:54:42.400 --> 01:54:45.570
but when asked about the mechanism of how, I'm told it's

2583
01:54:45.570 --> 01:54:48.240
because at some undisclosed

2584
01:54:48.240 --> 01:54:51.100
number of years ago somebody committed sin against God, and

2585
01:54:51.100 --> 01:54:52.960
that's why your child has now died

2586
01:54:52.960 --> 01:54:56.130
of cancer, there are millions of people who listen to this show

2587
01:54:56.130 --> 01:54:57.280
, there will be people listening to

2588
01:54:57.280 --> 01:54:59.520
this who's children have died of cancer, I wonder if that

2589
01:54:59.520 --> 01:55:01.040
brings them any kind of consolation,

2590
01:55:01.040 --> 01:55:04.680
or similarly the idea that maybe it's some disgruntled angels

2591
01:55:04.680 --> 01:55:05.920
who didn't want to come down to

2592
01:55:05.920 --> 01:55:08.120
earth for too long, and so if anything you're actually doing

2593
01:55:08.120 --> 01:55:09.760
them a favor by killing them of cancer,

2594
01:55:09.760 --> 01:55:11.120
I don't know if that's bringing the kind of...

2595
01:55:11.120 --> 01:55:13.290
Well I don't know what you're looking for, what's your answer

2596
01:55:13.290 --> 01:55:13.600
to that?

2597
01:55:13.600 --> 01:55:16.770
I don't think I have one, but I don't like people professing

2598
01:55:16.770 --> 01:55:17.840
that they do have an answer,

2599
01:55:17.840 --> 01:55:21.000
but when it comes down to it, actually saying something which I

2600
01:55:21.000 --> 01:55:22.720
think will provide the opposite effect,

2601
01:55:22.720 --> 01:55:25.080
which, and I don't mean this personally, I mean as a point of

2602
01:55:25.080 --> 01:55:26.480
ridiculous explanation,

2603
01:55:26.480 --> 01:55:29.360
the idea that this is going to come for everyone's going to get

2604
01:55:29.360 --> 01:55:30.080
transferred to this.

2605
01:55:30.080 --> 01:55:30.640
Sorry, so.

2606
01:55:30.640 --> 01:55:35.480
The idea that this even approximates an explanation as to why

2607
01:55:35.480 --> 01:55:37.360
this happens, I would ask you to

2608
01:55:37.360 --> 01:55:41.800
consider what you find more likely if we assume that we are

2609
01:55:41.800 --> 01:55:44.000
essentially existing here as

2610
01:55:44.000 --> 01:55:48.270
accidental, accidental organisms just competing in a struggle

2611
01:55:48.270 --> 01:55:50.160
for survival with no endowed

2612
01:55:50.160 --> 01:55:53.050
meaning or supervision, what might we expect to find? And I

2613
01:55:53.050 --> 01:55:54.480
would ask what you would expect to find

2614
01:55:54.480 --> 01:55:56.840
if we were created with purpose by loving God who wants us all

2615
01:55:56.840 --> 01:55:58.160
to come into communion with him,

2616
01:55:58.160 --> 01:56:01.440
but for some reason things are necessary that we exist in this

2617
01:56:01.440 --> 01:56:03.440
veil of tears, in this material world first.

2618
01:56:03.440 --> 01:56:05.040
What would you expect to find?

2619
01:56:05.040 --> 01:56:08.650
I don't think, and then look at what you do find, look at what

2620
01:56:08.650 --> 01:56:10.400
you do find in the natural world,

2621
01:56:10.400 --> 01:56:12.980
even if you just take into consideration non-human animal

2622
01:56:12.980 --> 01:56:13.600
suffering,

2623
01:56:14.720 --> 01:56:19.170
just an unfathomable amount of negative experience, the

2624
01:56:19.170 --> 01:56:20.400
seemingly no reason,

2625
01:56:20.400 --> 01:56:22.760
not to mention the fact that children are getting cancer, as

2626
01:56:22.760 --> 01:56:24.960
you say, and as you've already alluded to,

2627
01:56:24.960 --> 01:56:27.320
there are evils that humans commit like the Holocaust, but

2628
01:56:27.320 --> 01:56:28.320
there are evils which they don't

2629
01:56:28.320 --> 01:56:30.640
like earthquakes and tsunamis and the lying human.

2630
01:56:30.640 --> 01:56:34.730
Why don't we think we would expect to see any of this if we

2631
01:56:34.730 --> 01:56:35.920
assume that hypothesis,

2632
01:56:35.920 --> 01:56:38.910
but if we assume that we are just accidental existing organisms

2633
01:56:38.910 --> 01:56:40.240
in a struggle for survival?

2634
01:56:41.120 --> 01:56:44.320
Not only do we explain this, but we also come to expect it, so

2635
01:56:44.320 --> 01:56:45.680
I think it provides a much better

2636
01:56:45.680 --> 01:56:50.240
explanation that is not to say justification. The idea, we were

2637
01:56:50.240 --> 01:56:51.120
talking about evolution,

2638
01:56:51.120 --> 01:56:53.680
you said the problem that you have with the Darwinian worldview

2639
01:56:53.680 --> 01:56:55.600
, is that it seems to say that

2640
01:56:55.600 --> 01:56:58.130
it seems to favor survival of the fittest, and yet there are

2641
01:56:58.130 --> 01:56:59.600
things which evolution seems to

2642
01:56:59.600 --> 01:57:02.000
point to that we would morally condemn. Well, of course,

2643
01:57:02.000 --> 01:57:03.600
because evolution by natural selection

2644
01:57:03.600 --> 01:57:06.790
is an explanation for how things got the way they were. It's in

2645
01:57:06.790 --> 01:57:08.160
no way a justification for

2646
01:57:08.160 --> 01:57:11.080
behaviors. It doesn't even function that way. No scientific

2647
01:57:11.080 --> 01:57:13.360
theory of why things happen are any kind

2648
01:57:13.360 --> 01:57:16.900
of justification, any more than Newton's laws of gravity are a

2649
01:57:16.900 --> 01:57:19.040
justification, a moral justification

2650
01:57:19.040 --> 01:57:21.570
for the motion of the planet. Of course, it's not the case, it

2651
01:57:21.570 --> 01:57:22.720
's just an explanation.

2652
01:57:22.720 --> 01:57:26.060
But I just really want to drive home at this point that it has

2653
01:57:26.060 --> 01:57:27.840
to do more. If you want

2654
01:57:27.840 --> 01:57:30.490
religious traditions to do what you claim that they do, which

2655
01:57:30.490 --> 01:57:32.160
is provide existential comfort for

2656
01:57:32.160 --> 01:57:34.960
people who are suffering, you have to do more in the face of

2657
01:57:34.960 --> 01:57:36.880
children dying of cancer than some

2658
01:57:36.880 --> 01:57:41.450
reference to mythical human beings who existed in a way that is

2659
01:57:41.450 --> 01:57:43.680
completely unintelligible.

2660
01:57:43.680 --> 01:57:47.600
There's a lot there, okay. I don't expect it could be comfort

2661
01:57:47.600 --> 01:57:49.840
to anybody to say who's suffering from

2662
01:57:49.840 --> 01:57:53.620
whatever to say that there was a fall, okay. The fall is just

2663
01:57:53.620 --> 01:57:56.320
the explanation for what went wrong

2664
01:57:56.320 --> 01:57:59.870
and why there is wrong in the world. Like I said earlier, doesn

2665
01:57:59.870 --> 01:58:00.960
't matter where you live or when

2666
01:58:00.960 --> 01:58:03.980
you live, everybody knows something's wrong. And the way they

2667
01:58:03.980 --> 01:58:05.680
express that concern about something

2668
01:58:05.680 --> 01:58:08.910
wrong is in moral terms, the world is not the way it ought to

2669
01:58:08.910 --> 01:58:10.560
be, should be different.

2670
01:58:10.560 --> 01:58:12.980
There are, and then when you give examples of it, sometimes

2671
01:58:12.980 --> 01:58:15.040
there's natural evil. But generally,

2672
01:58:15.040 --> 01:58:18.410
it's examples of moral evil, what we will call moral evil, okay

2673
01:58:18.410 --> 01:58:21.040
, things that people shouldn't do,

2674
01:58:21.040 --> 01:58:22.960
okay. That's why I particularly avoided those.

2675
01:58:22.960 --> 01:58:30.320
No, right. You didn't include any examples. But the implication

2676
01:58:30.320 --> 01:58:32.720
is, and this is where Richard Dawkins

2677
01:58:32.720 --> 01:58:35.370
is famous statement that this is exactly the kind of world we'd

2678
01:58:35.370 --> 01:58:37.840
expect. If there was at the basis,

2679
01:58:37.840 --> 01:58:42.000
you know, no design, no justice, no evil, no good, nothing but

2680
01:58:42.000 --> 01:58:42.480
buying.

2681
01:58:42.480 --> 01:58:45.920
It'll listen to this. Well, I actually think this isn't the

2682
01:58:45.920 --> 01:58:48.080
world that we find when he just described.

2683
01:58:48.080 --> 01:58:50.750
Yes, it's a world filled with suffering and there's a way of

2684
01:58:50.750 --> 01:58:52.560
explaining that, which you just did.

2685
01:58:52.560 --> 01:58:56.160
There's also another way of explaining it that has a solution,

2686
01:58:56.160 --> 01:58:56.560
okay.

2687
01:58:56.560 --> 01:58:58.560
What is that explanation?

2688
01:58:58.560 --> 01:59:01.340
Just pardon me, that God is in the process of solving the

2689
01:59:01.340 --> 01:59:02.640
problem of evil over time.

2690
01:59:02.640 --> 01:59:05.300
I mean, that's why the evil's there in the first place. You

2691
01:59:05.300 --> 01:59:06.000
said the fool.

2692
01:59:06.000 --> 01:59:08.100
And I don't mean to interrupt, but you said it, you've

2693
01:59:08.100 --> 01:59:09.360
referenced the fool twice now.

2694
01:59:09.360 --> 01:59:12.080
And the last time I tried this, it seemed like you sort of said

2695
01:59:12.080 --> 01:59:12.800
that you don't really know.

2696
01:59:12.800 --> 01:59:16.240
But if the fool is... I wasn't giving particular details about

2697
01:59:16.240 --> 01:59:17.360
the ancestry of human

2698
01:59:17.360 --> 01:59:20.240
evolution. What is the fool? Historically, what is the fool?

2699
01:59:20.240 --> 01:59:23.940
The followers when our first parents, characteristically known

2700
01:59:23.940 --> 01:59:25.440
as Adam and Eve in the story,

2701
01:59:25.440 --> 01:59:29.960
and the account of reality, rebelled against God and when they

2702
01:59:29.960 --> 01:59:31.200
rebelled at God,

2703
01:59:31.200 --> 01:59:34.360
they disobeyed him as what's important. He had given them

2704
01:59:34.360 --> 01:59:36.720
restriction. They disobeyed that.

2705
01:59:36.720 --> 01:59:40.080
And when they disobeyed that, they broke their relationship

2706
01:59:40.080 --> 01:59:41.760
with God through rebellion,

2707
01:59:41.760 --> 01:59:44.400
they broke their relationship with each other, they broke their

2708
01:59:44.400 --> 01:59:46.240
relationship with the environment.

2709
01:59:46.240 --> 01:59:49.450
All of that had these kind of cosmic effects. There's a

2710
01:59:49.450 --> 01:59:51.360
solution though. That's just the

2711
01:59:51.360 --> 01:59:53.480
first three chapters. Do you know what the pond was if it is

2712
01:59:53.480 --> 01:59:54.320
the thought?

2713
01:59:54.320 --> 01:59:59.040
Okay. The principle issue is rebellion or disobedience. Okay.

2714
01:59:59.040 --> 01:59:59.760
There are different ways as

2715
01:59:59.760 --> 02:00:02.660
characterized, but that's the point. In my view, the

2716
02:00:02.660 --> 02:00:03.680
disobedience.

2717
02:00:03.680 --> 02:00:06.560
Okay. Of what the pardon me? Disobedience of what?

2718
02:00:06.560 --> 02:00:09.840
What was it? God's disabled? Not to do one thing. What was the

2719
02:00:09.840 --> 02:00:09.840
thing?

2720
02:00:09.840 --> 02:00:13.200
What was the thing? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil

2721
02:00:13.200 --> 02:00:14.080
and they disobeyed.

2722
02:00:14.080 --> 02:00:16.700
Do you interpret that literally? Like an actual tree and an

2723
02:00:16.700 --> 02:00:17.680
actual tree.

2724
02:00:17.680 --> 02:00:20.620
I do take that as a straightforward account, but that's not the

2725
02:00:20.620 --> 02:00:21.680
important part. I don't want to

2726
02:00:21.680 --> 02:00:25.060
to get cancer because somebody hired me. So children get cancer

2727
02:00:25.060 --> 02:00:26.240
because a few million years ago,

2728
02:00:26.240 --> 02:00:28.080
someone made it free. Let me just back up and give you the

2729
02:00:28.080 --> 02:00:28.880
entire account.

2730
02:00:28.880 --> 02:00:31.840
Okay. Please. This would be, I think, more help.

2731
02:00:31.840 --> 02:00:33.870
I'm not trying to be difficult, by the way. I just really, I

2732
02:00:33.870 --> 02:00:34.960
don't want to just brush over

2733
02:00:34.960 --> 02:00:36.970
these points when we're interested. I mean, people listening

2734
02:00:36.970 --> 02:00:38.400
might be like, I've never understood

2735
02:00:38.400 --> 02:00:40.530
what I understand. They don't even know what it's like. The

2736
02:00:40.530 --> 02:00:41.840
point I'm making is that there was a

2737
02:00:41.840 --> 02:00:45.170
disobedience by human beings that had an impact on their

2738
02:00:45.170 --> 02:00:47.120
relationship with God, which they were

2739
02:00:47.120 --> 02:00:51.070
created for and had an impact on the rest of the world. And

2740
02:00:51.070 --> 02:00:53.840
since then, that problem of evil

2741
02:00:53.840 --> 02:00:58.000
broadly read. Since then, the world's been broken and God has a

2742
02:00:58.000 --> 02:01:00.080
plan for bringing that back together,

2743
02:01:00.080 --> 02:01:03.250
not only for making the world whole again, but also for

2744
02:01:03.250 --> 02:01:05.200
bringing human beings back in proper

2745
02:01:05.200 --> 02:01:08.070
relationship with him when they're in rebellion with him. And

2746
02:01:08.070 --> 02:01:09.440
this is where Jesus comes in.

2747
02:01:09.440 --> 02:01:13.880
Now, I've written a piece called "The Story Reality" a book

2748
02:01:13.880 --> 02:01:15.760
that's meant to characterize that in fairly

2749
02:01:15.760 --> 02:01:18.770
clear terms and more general terms. It doesn't meant to answer

2750
02:01:18.770 --> 02:01:20.400
all of these questions because some of

2751
02:01:20.400 --> 02:01:24.610
them, frankly, are imponderables. But the larger picture can be

2752
02:01:24.610 --> 02:01:26.720
understood and is in the story. It's

2753
02:01:26.720 --> 02:01:29.310
in the account of reality and the scriptures and the Hebrew

2754
02:01:29.310 --> 02:01:30.640
scriptures and in the Christian

2755
02:01:30.640 --> 02:01:34.410
scriptures. They form a unit. Okay. And these are the things

2756
02:01:34.410 --> 02:01:36.160
that Jesus spoke to. And Jesus

2757
02:01:36.160 --> 02:01:39.040
took these things seriously based on what he had to say about

2758
02:01:39.040 --> 02:01:41.280
these particular things. Okay.

2759
02:01:41.280 --> 02:01:43.880
So because we're broadly speaking now, because we live in a

2760
02:01:43.880 --> 02:01:46.320
broken world, there is an answer that

2761
02:01:46.320 --> 02:01:49.200
we have to that. We have a possible answer. You know, it was a

2762
02:01:49.200 --> 02:01:51.760
Bertrand Russell who famously said,

2763
02:01:51.760 --> 02:01:54.310
how are you going to talk about God when you're kneeling at the

2764
02:01:54.310 --> 02:01:55.600
bed of a dying child, which I

2765
02:01:55.600 --> 02:01:59.030
think is very emotionally compelling. But I listened to

2766
02:01:59.030 --> 02:02:01.440
philosopher William Mike Craig, who you

2767
02:02:01.440 --> 02:02:04.140
also know, I think, who said, what is Bertrand Russell? The

2768
02:02:04.140 --> 02:02:05.280
atheist going to say when he's

2769
02:02:05.280 --> 02:02:08.460
kneeling at the bed of a dying child. He's talking like too bad

2770
02:02:08.460 --> 02:02:10.240
. That's just the way it goes.

2771
02:02:10.240 --> 02:02:14.480
There is no answer that he has to come with your responses off.

2772
02:02:14.480 --> 02:02:17.600
Sure. First of all, Alex, I want to

2773
02:02:17.600 --> 02:02:24.560
thank you for bringing up and being a bit bulldogish. I mean,

2774
02:02:24.560 --> 02:02:25.680
that in a good way. You grabbed

2775
02:02:25.680 --> 02:02:27.800
something. You were like, this is not okay. Well, we forget

2776
02:02:27.800 --> 02:02:29.040
that people are listening to this.

2777
02:02:29.040 --> 02:02:31.640
Your children have died of cancer. I totally get it. I think we

2778
02:02:31.640 --> 02:02:32.880
just need to keep it in mind, you know,

2779
02:02:32.880 --> 02:02:37.170
100%. So I'm really glad you said that because I realized that

2780
02:02:37.170 --> 02:02:39.200
I offered a terrible example.

2781
02:02:39.200 --> 02:02:42.560
And I say this as someone I can remember the day I was a third

2782
02:02:42.560 --> 02:02:44.720
year medical student on my first

2783
02:02:44.720 --> 02:02:48.030
pediatric rotation. I was working in the ICU overnight and

2784
02:02:48.030 --> 02:02:50.800
there was a nine year old child who had

2785
02:02:50.800 --> 02:02:56.970
I think lymphoma. And I watched and was with their parents as

2786
02:02:56.970 --> 02:02:59.600
that child moved towards death.

2787
02:02:59.600 --> 02:03:04.150
I have worked in offices where people will come into my office

2788
02:03:04.150 --> 02:03:06.160
and they'll say,

2789
02:03:06.960 --> 02:03:09.790
you know, they'll they'll ask me about karma and they'll be

2790
02:03:09.790 --> 02:03:11.840
like, I was nine years old when I was

2791
02:03:11.840 --> 02:03:15.550
sexually assaulted. Are you telling me that this is like part

2792
02:03:15.550 --> 02:03:17.120
of purpose or whatever?

2793
02:03:17.120 --> 02:03:23.600
I also remember when I was in India. One of my best friends,

2794
02:03:23.600 --> 02:03:24.960
the first time I went to India,

2795
02:03:24.960 --> 02:03:27.050
I spent about seven years studying to become a monk. I

2796
02:03:27.050 --> 02:03:29.840
discovered a lot of really cool stuff,

2797
02:03:29.840 --> 02:03:34.140
like meditation, had some transcendental experiences altered my

2798
02:03:34.140 --> 02:03:35.840
worldview. And one of my best

2799
02:03:35.840 --> 02:03:38.790
friends who was also a very accomplished meditator, I kind of

2800
02:03:38.790 --> 02:03:40.320
got to talking about religion.

2801
02:03:40.320 --> 02:03:42.970
And I was like, you know, what do you think about like Hinduism

2802
02:03:42.970 --> 02:03:44.160
and some of these concepts?

2803
02:03:44.160 --> 02:03:49.260
And he said, I can't accept any religion that says, if you were

2804
02:03:49.260 --> 02:03:50.960
raped, it's your fault.

2805
02:03:50.960 --> 02:03:55.690
Yes. So that stuck with me. And so for a long time at the very

2806
02:03:55.690 --> 02:03:56.880
beginning, Stephen asked me a

2807
02:03:56.880 --> 02:03:59.250
question, am I Hindu? I mean, am I religious? And I guess I

2808
02:03:59.250 --> 02:04:02.080
would say yes. So that thought really

2809
02:04:02.080 --> 02:04:05.660
stuck with me. I think for a long time, I was an atheist. I

2810
02:04:05.660 --> 02:04:08.000
think I'm still an atheist. I think there are a

2811
02:04:08.000 --> 02:04:10.360
couple of other things that are a little bit unusual. So like

2812
02:04:10.360 --> 02:04:11.600
people think like in the West,

2813
02:04:11.600 --> 02:04:14.770
we think that atheism, polyphism and monotheism are

2814
02:04:14.770 --> 02:04:18.400
contradictions. We don't really think that

2815
02:04:18.400 --> 02:04:22.390
in Hinduism, like those things can coexist. So and what I'm

2816
02:04:22.390 --> 02:04:24.800
really grateful for you for is because I

2817
02:04:24.800 --> 02:04:28.000
think when I'm so glad you said that, because I think when I

2818
02:04:28.000 --> 02:04:30.160
offered the example that I offered,

2819
02:04:32.240 --> 02:04:34.010
it's so interesting because I was thinking about why I

2820
02:04:34.010 --> 02:04:36.960
mentioned that we have a membership.

2821
02:04:36.960 --> 02:04:40.320
And the reason I mentioned it is because this is this is one of

2822
02:04:40.320 --> 02:04:42.640
those things that I've lectured about

2823
02:04:42.640 --> 02:04:46.940
for four to six hours. And if you listen to that lecture, then

2824
02:04:46.940 --> 02:04:49.600
you will understand the context that

2825
02:04:49.600 --> 02:04:52.930
I'm coming from. But without that context, and if you sort of

2826
02:04:52.930 --> 02:04:54.960
assume there's so many axioms about

2827
02:04:54.960 --> 02:04:59.550
morality and deserving, that that that example without the

2828
02:04:59.550 --> 02:05:02.160
appropriate context sounds awful. It's

2829
02:05:02.160 --> 02:05:04.810
like your kid died at the age of one. Oh, there's some greater

2830
02:05:04.810 --> 02:05:06.720
purpose. You just don't know what it is.

2831
02:05:06.720 --> 02:05:11.000
Fuck you. Right. That is not comforting at all. So here's where

2832
02:05:11.000 --> 02:05:12.960
I am now. I really think this is,

2833
02:05:12.960 --> 02:05:16.820
I think God was good in the sense that it helps people. I also

2834
02:05:16.820 --> 02:05:18.560
think it's true, but

2835
02:05:18.560 --> 02:05:22.080
here's kind of where I am now. So that was sort of my journey.

2836
02:05:22.080 --> 02:05:23.280
I realized it was out of order,

2837
02:05:24.160 --> 02:05:28.320
transcendental experience, karma seems awful. There's this

2838
02:05:28.320 --> 02:05:29.600
concept of deserving.

2839
02:05:29.600 --> 02:05:33.910
Then many years later, through practice with people who have

2840
02:05:33.910 --> 02:05:36.080
been sexually assaulted and watching

2841
02:05:36.080 --> 02:05:38.810
children die in the pediatric ICU, grappling with these

2842
02:05:38.810 --> 02:05:40.640
problems, not just like there are people

2843
02:05:40.640 --> 02:05:43.290
out there. It's like you're in the room with these people when

2844
02:05:43.290 --> 02:05:44.800
their child is dying. What do you

2845
02:05:44.800 --> 02:05:47.970
say to them? And even more so now is a psychiatrist with end of

2846
02:05:47.970 --> 02:05:49.520
life care and things like that.

2847
02:05:50.080 --> 02:05:53.680
So I think the first thing to understand, first question that I

2848
02:05:53.680 --> 02:05:55.600
have for you is when I say the word

2849
02:05:55.600 --> 02:06:01.660
"garma," what does that mean? To you. I don't know. Okay. I don

2850
02:06:01.660 --> 02:06:02.560
't know what you mean,

2851
02:06:02.560 --> 02:06:05.230
what do you mean by that. So I think the first thing to

2852
02:06:05.230 --> 02:06:06.800
understand about garma is it's just the

2853
02:06:06.800 --> 02:06:10.120
principle of cause and effect. So when a child dies of cancer,

2854
02:06:10.120 --> 02:06:12.080
what would you say is the cause of their

2855
02:06:12.080 --> 02:06:17.290
death? Well, I don't know about the signs of cancer very much,

2856
02:06:17.290 --> 02:06:19.280
but I would suppose it's the cancer.

2857
02:06:19.280 --> 02:06:22.160
Perfect. Right. So that is in accordance with the law of garma.

2858
02:06:22.160 --> 02:06:24.000
Now, what is the reason they got cancer?

2859
02:06:24.000 --> 02:06:29.100
I don't know. Okay. I mean, what if pick any reason you like it

2860
02:06:29.100 --> 02:06:30.240
? There could be a genetic

2861
02:06:30.240 --> 02:06:33.660
mutation and random chance things like that. So what I think

2862
02:06:33.660 --> 02:06:37.280
that all garma is is action and reaction.

2863
02:06:37.280 --> 02:06:41.590
That's it. So if you understand the doctrine of garma, what it

2864
02:06:41.590 --> 02:06:43.600
helps you do is see the way that

2865
02:06:43.600 --> 02:06:47.360
causes and effects link to each other. It does not have

2866
02:06:47.360 --> 02:06:51.200
anything to do with deserving more so than

2867
02:06:51.200 --> 02:06:54.530
if I have a genetic mutation and I wind up with cancer, that is

2868
02:06:54.530 --> 02:06:56.160
an action that has an effect.

2869
02:06:56.160 --> 02:06:59.770
This is why I was reluctant to engage with morality is because

2870
02:06:59.770 --> 02:07:01.040
I think there are certain

2871
02:07:01.040 --> 02:07:05.410
assumptions that I think come from this kind of Abrahamic or

2872
02:07:05.410 --> 02:07:07.760
Judeo Christian worldview

2873
02:07:07.760 --> 02:07:12.640
that get injected into these concepts like garma and tarma,

2874
02:07:12.640 --> 02:07:14.800
which is why I hate translating them

2875
02:07:14.800 --> 02:07:18.120
because anytime I translate something, it's going to be filled

2876
02:07:18.120 --> 02:07:19.280
in. So you really have to

2877
02:07:19.280 --> 02:07:22.440
understand garma, but I would say all garma is devoid of,

2878
02:07:22.440 --> 02:07:24.880
remove it, denude it of all morality,

2879
02:07:24.880 --> 02:07:30.140
remove it of all deserve beyond simple Newtonian mechanics and

2880
02:07:30.140 --> 02:07:32.480
that actions have consequences.

2881
02:07:32.480 --> 02:07:35.800
Now the reason that this is helpful, now I'm realizing I'm

2882
02:07:35.800 --> 02:07:38.000
making a functional claim here,

2883
02:07:38.000 --> 02:07:41.190
not a claim about philosophical truth because I don't know what

2884
02:07:41.190 --> 02:07:42.720
else to call it. I do think it's

2885
02:07:42.720 --> 02:07:44.640
philosophically true, but that's not what I'm talking about

2886
02:07:44.640 --> 02:07:48.560
right here, is that when you're

2887
02:07:48.560 --> 02:07:54.170
sitting with a human being, because your primary concern is

2888
02:07:54.170 --> 02:07:58.480
when a child with cancer dies or is dying,

2889
02:07:58.480 --> 02:08:02.410
how do you deal, how do you, there are people who are suffering

2890
02:08:02.410 --> 02:08:03.920
, if we're not careful, we're going to

2891
02:08:03.920 --> 02:08:08.010
hurt them, right? That's what you're saying. That's one thing.

2892
02:08:08.010 --> 02:08:09.200
Yeah, yeah. That's what I'm saying,

2893
02:08:09.200 --> 02:08:12.640
right? So I think what I sort of fit is how it makes people

2894
02:08:12.640 --> 02:08:14.080
feel, but there's also the

2895
02:08:14.080 --> 02:08:17.010
literal explanation for why they suffer. It's one thing to say

2896
02:08:17.010 --> 02:08:20.160
that this religious narrative will

2897
02:08:20.160 --> 02:08:22.910
bring you some comfort, but it's another thing as well. I think

2898
02:08:22.910 --> 02:08:24.080
that's something you need to keep

2899
02:08:24.080 --> 02:08:26.870
in mind, but you're saying more than that as a religious person

2900
02:08:26.870 --> 02:08:28.080
, you're not just saying that this

2901
02:08:28.080 --> 02:08:29.860
narrative will bring you the comfort, you're saying this is why

2902
02:08:29.860 --> 02:08:31.360
it's happening. This is why your child

2903
02:08:31.360 --> 02:08:35.210
has cancer. So what I would say, so here's my kind of response

2904
02:08:35.210 --> 02:08:36.880
to that. So the first is

2905
02:08:36.880 --> 02:08:41.980
I think that when I sit with people who were sexually used at

2906
02:08:41.980 --> 02:08:44.080
the age of nine, didn't do anything to

2907
02:08:44.080 --> 02:08:46.080
deserve it, you know, people will say like, oh, like, you have

2908
02:08:46.080 --> 02:08:47.360
to be careful what you wear and stuff

2909
02:08:47.360 --> 02:08:49.960
like that. I mean, I, you know, I have patients that were in

2910
02:08:49.960 --> 02:08:51.520
one'sies and overalls and all kinds of

2911
02:08:51.520 --> 02:08:55.440
nine at the age of nine. Yeah, people say all kinds of stuff.

2912
02:08:55.440 --> 02:08:57.280
So um,

2913
02:08:57.280 --> 02:09:00.700
and what I find with working with them and there's plenty of

2914
02:09:00.700 --> 02:09:02.400
data to back this up is that there's

2915
02:09:02.400 --> 02:09:07.610
a certain amount of meaning making that is necessary to comfort

2916
02:09:07.610 --> 02:09:10.000
those people to heal from that

2917
02:09:10.000 --> 02:09:14.190
thing. And the meaning making, if we're talking about empir

2918
02:09:14.190 --> 02:09:17.280
ically, making meaning out of things

2919
02:09:17.280 --> 02:09:20.560
that are bad is one of the ways that you alleviate suffering.

2920
02:09:20.560 --> 02:09:23.120
So one of the things that I find

2921
02:09:23.120 --> 02:09:26.670
is helpful as an option for that meaning making is

2922
02:09:26.670 --> 02:09:29.440
understanding the doctrine of government.

2923
02:09:29.440 --> 02:09:32.610
And when I share it with people, it doesn't work for everybody.

2924
02:09:32.610 --> 02:09:34.240
So from a clinic clinical standpoint,

2925
02:09:34.240 --> 02:09:37.060
I'm not saying you should believe in the doctrine of karma. I'm

2926
02:09:37.060 --> 02:09:38.560
just, and I'm not saying you should

2927
02:09:38.560 --> 02:09:40.630
believe in Christianity or anything like that. The important

2928
02:09:40.630 --> 02:09:42.560
thing is this is what the science shows is

2929
02:09:42.560 --> 02:09:46.610
you should make a concerted effort to make meaning. And because

2930
02:09:46.610 --> 02:09:48.960
of my background, because of my

2931
02:09:48.960 --> 02:09:52.400
expertise, helping people understand things from a karmic

2932
02:09:52.400 --> 02:09:54.800
perspective, I would say is helpful

2933
02:09:54.800 --> 02:09:59.350
about 80 to 90% of the time. But there's a very important

2934
02:09:59.350 --> 02:10:01.600
caveat there from a data standpoint

2935
02:10:01.600 --> 02:10:04.500
is that there is a huge selection bias to who comes into my

2936
02:10:04.500 --> 02:10:06.160
office. There's a good chance that

2937
02:10:06.160 --> 02:10:08.690
these people are already open to that concept and are

2938
02:10:08.690 --> 02:10:10.960
interested in learning more. So I make

2939
02:10:10.960 --> 02:10:15.680
no claims about that concept being superior to anything else.

2940
02:10:15.680 --> 02:10:18.240
But I think what we know from

2941
02:10:18.240 --> 02:10:22.930
psychiatry is that it's not so clear which one is the best, but

2942
02:10:22.930 --> 02:10:25.280
that you just have some way

2943
02:10:25.280 --> 02:10:28.150
of like making sense of what happens to you. And that's just

2944
02:10:28.150 --> 02:10:29.920
one thing that I think is

2945
02:10:29.920 --> 02:10:34.290
an option. And I happen to believe in the principle of cause

2946
02:10:34.290 --> 02:10:36.720
and effect, which is all karma is

2947
02:10:36.720 --> 02:10:39.630
there's no morality tied to sounds like it's saying that it's

2948
02:10:39.630 --> 02:10:41.600
just something that it just happens.

2949
02:10:41.600 --> 02:10:44.630
What do you mean? It just happens. It just happens. No,

2950
02:10:44.630 --> 02:10:47.200
absolutely not. I'm saying the exact opposite.

2951
02:10:47.200 --> 02:10:52.660
So it just happens does not imply a cause. I mean, it just

2952
02:10:52.660 --> 02:10:53.920
happens as the result of some

2953
02:10:53.920 --> 02:10:56.530
series of calls. It's like, why did children get cancer? It's

2954
02:10:56.530 --> 02:10:57.760
just the result of a series of

2955
02:10:57.760 --> 02:11:01.580
causes. Yes, that's it. Yes. There's no redemption. There's no

2956
02:11:01.580 --> 02:11:04.000
meaning. There's no intention. It's just

2957
02:11:04.000 --> 02:11:07.350
it just happens. And that's fine because I believe that's the

2958
02:11:07.350 --> 02:11:08.640
case. I think that's true.

2959
02:11:08.640 --> 02:11:12.480
No, no. I mean, I think that we have overwhelming evidence

2960
02:11:12.480 --> 02:11:16.480
overwhelming that if you have a

2961
02:11:16.480 --> 02:11:21.030
bracket negative mutation on both sides that you have a 98 to

2962
02:11:21.030 --> 02:11:23.280
99% chance of getting breast cancer

2963
02:11:23.280 --> 02:11:27.250
that having this mutation here warrants a prophylactic double

2964
02:11:27.250 --> 02:11:29.440
mastectomy, which means removing both

2965
02:11:29.440 --> 02:11:32.840
breasts before the cancer even shows up. But I think the reason

2966
02:11:32.840 --> 02:11:34.160
why I maybe I'm wrong about

2967
02:11:34.160 --> 02:11:35.880
this, but I think the reason you brought this up, Stephen was

2968
02:11:35.880 --> 02:11:37.200
not because you were interested

2969
02:11:37.200 --> 02:11:39.730
when you said like, I don't think you were to do like this, but

2970
02:11:39.730 --> 02:11:40.720
you know, why does the child get

2971
02:11:40.720 --> 02:11:43.140
cancer? Why would young Stephen have gotten cancer? I don't

2972
02:11:43.140 --> 02:11:44.800
think you mean in the scientific sense.

2973
02:11:44.800 --> 02:11:48.130
I don't think you mean literally explained to me the process by

2974
02:11:48.130 --> 02:11:50.080
which cancer develops in my brain

2975
02:11:50.080 --> 02:11:53.580
gives me leukemia. I think you mean, why does this happen if

2976
02:11:53.580 --> 02:11:55.840
being supervised? I mean, you asked it

2977
02:11:55.840 --> 02:11:59.810
to Greg in the context of religious supervision of the universe

2978
02:11:59.810 --> 02:12:04.080
. And I think the irony is that we're

2979
02:12:04.080 --> 02:12:07.310
in a context of a discussion where usually the boots on the

2980
02:12:07.310 --> 02:12:09.120
other foot. And I'm sort of being

2981
02:12:09.120 --> 02:12:13.540
told that as a as a non-religious person, as an atheist ag

2982
02:12:13.540 --> 02:12:16.400
nostic, I don't have a satisfying

2983
02:12:16.400 --> 02:12:19.650
explanation. You know, what am I going to say at the footstool

2984
02:12:19.650 --> 02:12:21.280
of somebody who's dying of cancer?

2985
02:12:21.280 --> 02:12:24.590
But it sounds to me, at least today, like we don't have a very

2986
02:12:24.590 --> 02:12:26.080
plausible alternative in

2987
02:12:26.080 --> 02:12:28.720
Christianity. For example, I did have a few questions, which

2988
02:12:28.720 --> 02:12:30.560
maybe I'll be permitted the time

2989
02:12:30.560 --> 02:12:34.060
to ask. And I don't want to bang on about this, but it's

2990
02:12:34.060 --> 02:12:36.720
important because this is, ultimately,

2991
02:12:36.720 --> 02:12:39.450
you're here to represent your view and a world view more

2992
02:12:39.450 --> 02:12:41.840
broadly. And this is, to me, the question

2993
02:12:41.840 --> 02:12:46.320
is the question of suffering. And you've explained your views

2994
02:12:46.320 --> 02:12:48.240
about the fool. And I wanted to

2995
02:12:48.240 --> 02:12:51.040
let you put them in full before I asked a few questions. But

2996
02:12:51.040 --> 02:12:53.440
the first question that jumps out at me

2997
02:12:53.440 --> 02:12:58.700
is the question of pre-human suffering. We're not the first

2998
02:12:58.700 --> 02:13:01.040
species to inhabit this planet. And before

2999
02:13:01.040 --> 02:13:04.600
we existed, billions of years, I don't know if you believe the

3000
02:13:04.600 --> 02:13:06.000
earth is four and a half billion

3001
02:13:06.000 --> 02:13:09.700
years old. But billions of years, hundreds of millions of years

3002
02:13:09.700 --> 02:13:12.720
, at least, of animal suffering.

3003
02:13:12.720 --> 02:13:17.890
And that is experienced. And you could say that it somehow is

3004
02:13:17.890 --> 02:13:20.240
less relevant or doesn't matter

3005
02:13:20.240 --> 02:13:23.630
as much. But if you saw me right now, step on a dog's tail and

3006
02:13:23.630 --> 02:13:25.440
watch it squeal, you tell me to

3007
02:13:25.440 --> 02:13:28.810
stop because you know that absent just the effect that it has

3008
02:13:28.810 --> 02:13:30.640
on a human situation, that's bad

3009
02:13:30.640 --> 02:13:32.790
for the dog. That kind of stuff was going on for hundreds of

3010
02:13:32.790 --> 02:13:34.240
million years before humans were around.

3011
02:13:34.240 --> 02:13:36.600
That means before the fool. And that's true. The second

3012
02:13:36.600 --> 02:13:37.840
question, the second question I have.

3013
02:13:37.840 --> 02:13:40.710
Let's do one at a time. Yeah. And I don't entirely know how to

3014
02:13:40.710 --> 02:13:43.360
answer that. Part of the problem comes

3015
02:13:43.360 --> 02:13:47.520
when you create a world in a certain way that has certain cause

3016
02:13:47.520 --> 02:13:49.600
and effect kind of thing. So

3017
02:13:49.600 --> 02:13:52.770
pain is there for a reason. Pain is there so that you can avoid

3018
02:13:52.770 --> 02:13:54.960
something that's harmful to the body

3019
02:13:54.960 --> 02:13:57.640
when you start feeling pain, you withdraw from it, okay, in a

3020
02:13:57.640 --> 02:13:58.880
very simplistic sense.

3021
02:13:59.440 --> 02:14:04.060
It also has a downside and the downside is that pain is painful

3022
02:14:04.060 --> 02:14:07.120
and sometimes dying is very painful too.

3023
02:14:07.120 --> 02:14:09.650
So there's a trade-off there. Now, I haven't worked all those

3024
02:14:09.650 --> 02:14:12.480
details out, okay. But what I look at

3025
02:14:12.480 --> 02:14:16.050
is a larger picture because I can't refine all of those things

3026
02:14:16.050 --> 02:14:17.520
from my own thinking.

3027
02:14:17.520 --> 02:14:21.680
The larger picture is we both, we all live in the same world

3028
02:14:21.680 --> 02:14:23.920
that is filled with pain and suffering.

3029
02:14:23.920 --> 02:14:27.690
So then the question is, who has the best explanation writ

3030
02:14:27.690 --> 02:14:30.640
large about how that works? No explanation,

3031
02:14:30.640 --> 02:14:35.760
or maybe some, are going to go very granular and get the, here

3032
02:14:35.760 --> 02:14:37.200
is why your baby is suffering

3033
02:14:37.200 --> 02:14:39.750
this moment for this thing. We're not going to be able to do

3034
02:14:39.750 --> 02:14:41.360
that. But we can understand why the

3035
02:14:41.360 --> 02:14:44.940
world is broken. Now, if you, if you don't hold that the world

3036
02:14:44.940 --> 02:14:46.960
was made for something better,

3037
02:14:46.960 --> 02:14:50.460
then the world we see right now is not broken. It's just the

3038
02:14:50.460 --> 02:14:51.920
way it is. There is no moral

3039
02:14:51.920 --> 02:14:54.710
assessment whatsoever that we can make that would make any

3040
02:14:54.710 --> 02:14:57.040
sense. But we constantly make moral

3041
02:14:57.040 --> 02:14:59.260
assessments, which is why you're bringing this issue out about

3042
02:14:59.260 --> 02:15:01.680
suffering. I've been very careful to

3043
02:15:01.680 --> 02:15:05.320
avoid moral language. Let me explain how it, what it, it seems

3044
02:15:05.320 --> 02:15:07.520
to me that you are bringing kind of

3045
02:15:07.520 --> 02:15:11.550
smuggling in moral categories with the suffering issue. Because

3046
02:15:11.550 --> 02:15:13.200
if I said, I don't care about the

3047
02:15:13.200 --> 02:15:16.370
suffering of millions of years of organisms that have

3048
02:15:16.370 --> 02:15:19.600
experienced pain, that kind of cast me in a kind

3049
02:15:19.600 --> 02:15:23.020
of a negative moral light. You don't have to say that, it does

3050
02:15:23.020 --> 02:15:25.360
seem to me that you're smuggling in

3051
02:15:25.360 --> 02:15:28.760
the notion that suffering is bad moral. I know that people

3052
02:15:28.760 --> 02:15:30.720
often do that. I'm specifically avoiding

3053
02:15:30.720 --> 02:15:33.410
that because I've had this conversation 100,000 times. And that

3054
02:15:33.410 --> 02:15:34.800
's that's the accusation that

3055
02:15:34.800 --> 02:15:37.330
gets going up. And some people do do that, but I'm specifically

3056
02:15:37.330 --> 02:15:38.560
, you can rewind the tape,

3057
02:15:38.560 --> 02:15:40.960
I make great pains. I don't say the problem of evil, for

3058
02:15:40.960 --> 02:15:42.720
example. I say the problem of suffering.

3059
02:15:42.720 --> 02:15:45.080
Okay. If you said that you didn't care about suffering, I would

3060
02:15:45.080 --> 02:15:46.160
say that you're probably just being

3061
02:15:46.160 --> 02:15:48.520
inconsistent with your Christian worldview, for example. I

3062
02:15:48.520 --> 02:15:49.440
wouldn't say that you're doing anything

3063
02:15:49.440 --> 02:15:51.970
a moral in the context. So I'll accept the qualification. What

3064
02:15:51.970 --> 02:15:54.240
I'm saying is that if Christianity

3065
02:15:54.240 --> 02:15:57.410
would true, we would not expect the kind of suffering that is

3066
02:15:57.410 --> 02:15:58.800
present in the natural world.

3067
02:15:58.800 --> 02:16:01.970
I'm not saying that on my worldview, that suffering is wrong

3068
02:16:01.970 --> 02:16:03.920
and must be fixed and there's some moral

3069
02:16:03.920 --> 02:16:06.450
element. I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying is that it

3070
02:16:06.450 --> 02:16:07.920
is unexpected. If Christianity

3071
02:16:07.920 --> 02:16:11.620
were true, that that suffering would be as it is. Well, the way

3072
02:16:11.620 --> 02:16:13.120
in particular, the nonhuman animals.

3073
02:16:13.120 --> 02:16:16.080
No, I understand that. Okay. And the way I'm looking at it.

3074
02:16:16.080 --> 02:16:19.250
Do you understand that I'm not smiling in those moral? Sorry,

3075
02:16:19.250 --> 02:16:20.240
because you said that I'm

3076
02:16:20.240 --> 02:16:24.000
smuggling in moral. No, okay. That's okay. I'm not. I'm not. I

3077
02:16:24.000 --> 02:16:24.000
'm not.

3078
02:16:24.000 --> 02:16:27.590
Okay. Question. I did, which is that if the fool is the

3079
02:16:27.590 --> 02:16:30.320
explanation for, shall we say,

3080
02:16:30.320 --> 02:16:32.630
the moral evils that people commit like the Holocaust, the

3081
02:16:32.630 --> 02:16:33.520
reason why people have a

3082
02:16:33.520 --> 02:16:36.770
proclivity to commit the Holocaust is because of the portrayal

3083
02:16:36.770 --> 02:16:39.200
of God's trust a few

3084
02:16:39.200 --> 02:16:45.870
million years ago, whenever it was you think it was, if Adam

3085
02:16:45.870 --> 02:16:47.680
and Eve's transgression is the explanation

3086
02:16:47.680 --> 02:16:52.100
for why humans have a sinful nature and act upon sin, then why

3087
02:16:52.100 --> 02:16:54.320
did Eve act upon the sin before the

3088
02:16:54.320 --> 02:16:58.330
fool had happened? Eve must have had a proclivity to sin in

3089
02:16:58.330 --> 02:17:00.640
order to, in order to portray God in the

3090
02:17:00.640 --> 02:17:04.210
first place. And so I don't think it suffices to say that the

3091
02:17:04.210 --> 02:17:06.000
explanation for why we have human

3092
02:17:06.000 --> 02:17:09.810
being completely delivered to sin by God. Is because of the

3093
02:17:09.810 --> 02:17:12.960
fool, if the fool is a result of a proclivity to

3094
02:17:12.960 --> 02:17:17.630
sin from Eve. Well, the nature of freedom in my understanding,

3095
02:17:17.630 --> 02:17:20.320
my view is that it can initiate things.

3096
02:17:20.320 --> 02:17:23.680
Okay. You don't have to have it in a certain sense, deter

3097
02:17:23.680 --> 02:17:26.320
ministic element in your in your

3098
02:17:26.320 --> 02:17:30.790
soul that forces you to act a certain way. Why did Adam and Eve

3099
02:17:30.790 --> 02:17:32.800
, even this case, act the way

3100
02:17:32.800 --> 02:17:36.170
she did, because she was capable of initiating a free action.

3101
02:17:36.170 --> 02:17:37.600
Do you think she did more

3102
02:17:37.600 --> 02:17:40.800
free action in terms of rebellion? Okay. That's the nature of

3103
02:17:40.800 --> 02:17:42.720
freedom. Okay. I can't get into

3104
02:17:42.720 --> 02:17:46.380
her mind. And I think sometimes asking questions like this. Why

3105
02:17:46.380 --> 02:17:48.320
did she under those circumstances

3106
02:17:48.320 --> 02:17:51.190
do what she did? I can't answer that. Do you think she did

3107
02:17:51.190 --> 02:17:52.320
something immoral?

3108
02:17:52.320 --> 02:17:55.820
Yeah, she did something. And what did she eat from the tree of

3109
02:17:55.820 --> 02:17:59.120
the, I'm not sure she ate from the

3110
02:17:59.120 --> 02:18:01.670
tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So she ate from the

3111
02:18:01.670 --> 02:18:03.280
tree of the knowledge of good and evil,

3112
02:18:03.280 --> 02:18:05.690
implying that the four she ate of it, she didn't have an old,

3113
02:18:05.690 --> 02:18:06.400
you're good and evil.

3114
02:18:06.400 --> 02:18:09.400
Well, she have done something immoral in the four she ate. Can

3115
02:18:09.400 --> 02:18:10.320
I ask you a question? Hold on.

3116
02:18:10.320 --> 02:18:13.470
Hold on. No, it just goes to a comment. You understand? You

3117
02:18:13.470 --> 02:18:14.080
understand my view. So I just need

3118
02:18:14.080 --> 02:18:16.050
to clarify that. You understand what I'm saying, right? Like, I

3119
02:18:16.050 --> 02:18:18.000
understand entirely. If she hasn't

3120
02:18:18.000 --> 02:18:19.930
eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, she

3121
02:18:19.930 --> 02:18:21.840
doesn't know good and evil. How does she

3122
02:18:21.840 --> 02:18:23.370
know that it's evil and that she hadn't yet eaten from not good

3123
02:18:23.370 --> 02:18:25.520
and evil? Okay. Because the knowledge

3124
02:18:25.520 --> 02:18:28.070
of good and the word knowledge oftentimes in the Hebrew is

3125
02:18:28.070 --> 02:18:30.720
talking about experience. Okay. It is not

3126
02:18:30.720 --> 02:18:34.950
talking about a mental awareness. Okay. She wouldn't have been,

3127
02:18:34.950 --> 02:18:37.040
she wouldn't have not been able to

3128
02:18:37.040 --> 02:18:40.540
even understand the command not to do something. If she didn't

3129
02:18:40.540 --> 02:18:42.560
have those moral categories, I think

3130
02:18:42.560 --> 02:18:47.270
that's part of the image of God and man. Consequently, she knew

3131
02:18:47.270 --> 02:18:49.680
she ought not to it, but she still

3132
02:18:49.680 --> 02:18:53.120
chose for whatever reason to do that. And that act of

3133
02:18:53.120 --> 02:18:55.840
disobedience created a big mess. What that

3134
02:18:55.840 --> 02:18:58.830
means is that the fool does not explain the proclivity to sin

3135
02:18:58.830 --> 02:19:00.640
because he've already had it.

3136
02:19:00.640 --> 02:19:03.900
It does not explain the existence of evil because knowledge of

3137
02:19:03.900 --> 02:19:05.600
that already existed before

3138
02:19:05.600 --> 02:19:07.870
she committed the fool. It also doesn't explain the origin of

3139
02:19:07.870 --> 02:19:09.280
suffering because of course

3140
02:19:09.280 --> 02:19:11.120
eats punishment for eating from the tree of the knowledge. Well

3141
02:19:11.120 --> 02:19:12.320
, you're talking about suffering

3142
02:19:12.320 --> 02:19:16.100
prior to human beings in animals. I'm talking about suffering

3143
02:19:16.100 --> 02:19:18.320
in human beings. It does. It does

3144
02:19:18.320 --> 02:19:21.490
explain the fall of man because human beings made a choice that

3145
02:19:21.490 --> 02:19:24.000
they could they could have made

3146
02:19:24.000 --> 02:19:27.840
differently, but they didn't. And the rebellion against God had

3147
02:19:27.840 --> 02:19:28.960
had a consequence.

3148
02:19:28.960 --> 02:19:33.520
But this is why the rest of the world has unfolded the way it

3149
02:19:33.520 --> 02:19:35.280
has why there is suffering

3150
02:19:35.280 --> 02:19:40.420
evil in the world. A naturalistic explanation can explain or

3151
02:19:40.420 --> 02:19:42.320
suffering before suffering after,

3152
02:19:42.320 --> 02:19:45.540
but even very careful to make it clear that there's no moral

3153
02:19:45.540 --> 02:19:47.520
ramifications to this at all.

3154
02:19:47.520 --> 02:19:50.230
It seems most people are pretty aware that there are moral

3155
02:19:50.230 --> 02:19:52.880
ramifications. So if your worldview does not

3156
02:19:52.880 --> 02:19:56.050
have a way of making sense or a moral intuitions about

3157
02:19:56.050 --> 02:19:58.160
suffering, even animal suffering,

3158
02:19:58.160 --> 02:20:01.680
it's not an adequate worldview. Just give me a minute of your

3159
02:20:01.680 --> 02:20:02.800
time and I'll tell you about a

3160
02:20:02.800 --> 02:20:06.100
device that my team has been using that they won't seem to shut

3161
02:20:06.100 --> 02:20:07.440
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3162
02:20:07.440 --> 02:20:11.660
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3164
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3165
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3166
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3168
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3172
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3182
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3183
02:21:08.450 --> 02:21:10.000
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3184
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3185
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3186
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02:21:28.560 --> 02:21:31.560
complete them, then you'll send a personalized summary with

3193
02:21:31.560 --> 02:21:33.520
insights back by doctors and thousands

3194
02:21:33.520 --> 02:21:36.710
of hours of research. And if anything critical shows up, you'll

3195
02:21:36.710 --> 02:21:38.080
get a call from a doctor.

3196
02:21:38.080 --> 02:21:41.010
These are the insights most people never get, but you can get

3197
02:21:41.010 --> 02:21:42.880
them now. So if you want to learn more,

3198
02:21:42.880 --> 02:21:49.540
head to function health.com/doc where you can sign up right now

3199
02:21:49.540 --> 02:21:50.080
. And for the first thousand of my

3200
02:21:50.080 --> 02:21:54.450
listeners, you can get $100 credit towards your membership when

3201
02:21:54.450 --> 02:21:56.400
you use the code D-O-A-C-100,

3202
02:21:56.400 --> 02:22:02.640
but do not tell anybody. That's D-O-A-C-1-0-0. Alex, how do you

3203
02:22:02.640 --> 02:22:06.000
categorize your belief or lack of

3204
02:22:06.000 --> 02:22:09.320
belief? Are you atheist, agnostic, religious? Agnostic is

3205
02:22:09.320 --> 02:22:10.800
probably the best term.

3206
02:22:10.800 --> 02:22:14.240
And how do you define the word agnostic? It means that I don't

3207
02:22:14.240 --> 02:22:15.440
know. I think that a lot of

3208
02:22:15.440 --> 02:22:19.230
religious language escapes us. And I'm also not entirely sure

3209
02:22:19.230 --> 02:22:20.800
always what people are

3210
02:22:20.800 --> 02:22:25.360
exactly talking about. So if I asked you the question, how did

3211
02:22:25.360 --> 02:22:26.400
life come to be on the earth?

3212
02:22:26.400 --> 02:22:29.070
What would your answer to that be? Oh, I have no idea. Of

3213
02:22:29.070 --> 02:22:30.240
course I have no idea.

3214
02:22:30.240 --> 02:22:34.490
And how does someone who is agnostic create a really meaningful

3215
02:22:34.490 --> 02:22:36.960
life in your perspective?

3216
02:22:36.960 --> 02:22:40.800
Well, I don't know how would somebody else might do that

3217
02:22:40.800 --> 02:22:42.480
because because crucially,

3218
02:22:42.480 --> 02:22:44.720
I mean, we talked about this earlier when we talked about like

3219
02:22:44.720 --> 02:22:46.800
we have this brief

3220
02:22:46.800 --> 02:22:51.600
interlude where you were sort of saying meaning for humans and

3221
02:22:51.600 --> 02:22:52.480
meaning for individuals.

3222
02:22:52.480 --> 02:22:54.290
And the reason I make that distinction is because if you

3223
02:22:54.290 --> 02:22:55.040
consider the way that

3224
02:22:56.400 --> 02:22:59.930
take like scientific progress right from Galileo's time to

3225
02:22:59.930 --> 02:23:01.840
today, the idea is that there are some

3226
02:23:01.840 --> 02:23:04.860
kind of scientific innovations. And then you have a child and

3227
02:23:04.860 --> 02:23:07.200
you teach that child the latest

3228
02:23:07.200 --> 02:23:10.020
science and then that child will build upon it and teach their

3229
02:23:10.020 --> 02:23:11.280
children the latest and they'll

3230
02:23:11.280 --> 02:23:15.190
build and so as generations go on, the starting point for each

3231
02:23:15.190 --> 02:23:17.120
individual human is like further

3232
02:23:17.120 --> 02:23:19.500
along, right? So you can have a child who's like 12 now and

3233
02:23:19.500 --> 02:23:20.960
those calculus, you know what I mean?

3234
02:23:21.520 --> 02:23:25.130
And with successive generations, the starting point for each

3235
02:23:25.130 --> 02:23:27.520
individual is like further along the

3236
02:23:27.520 --> 02:23:30.960
part of the discovery with like meaning and existential

3237
02:23:30.960 --> 02:23:32.960
concerns. It doesn't work like that.

3238
02:23:32.960 --> 02:23:36.000
It resets every single time. It's not something you can't

3239
02:23:36.000 --> 02:23:37.760
figure out like how to live in meaningful

3240
02:23:37.760 --> 02:23:40.510
life and experience meaning and come to some kind of spiritual

3241
02:23:40.510 --> 02:23:41.920
enlightenment and then teach that

3242
02:23:41.920 --> 02:23:45.090
to your children and that's their starting point. For them, it

3243
02:23:45.090 --> 02:23:48.240
resets. It's new. So I think that every

3244
02:23:48.240 --> 02:23:51.410
individual has to do it on their own for themselves, right? And

3245
02:23:51.410 --> 02:23:52.960
we're all doing that together

3246
02:23:52.960 --> 02:23:55.210
as it were going around the world. So the way that I'm

3247
02:23:55.210 --> 02:23:57.360
approaching this, we were going

3248
02:23:57.360 --> 02:23:59.610
to talk about consciousness, which we didn't and perhaps it's a

3249
02:23:59.610 --> 02:24:00.720
good job that we didn't because

3250
02:24:00.720 --> 02:24:06.020
it's it's just such a big topic. But my views on consciousness

3251
02:24:06.020 --> 02:24:08.080
are crucial to my

3252
02:24:08.080 --> 02:24:12.980
to my sense of sort of what it's all about as it were because

3253
02:24:12.980 --> 02:24:15.360
the greatest mystery that we are

3254
02:24:15.360 --> 02:24:18.720
confronted with every single day, if you just take a moment to

3255
02:24:18.720 --> 02:24:21.440
remember it, is that we are conscious,

3256
02:24:21.440 --> 02:24:23.820
is that we are experiencing things from a first person

3257
02:24:23.820 --> 02:24:25.520
perspective that I have thoughts which are

3258
02:24:25.520 --> 02:24:27.830
inaccessible to you and you have thoughts which are

3259
02:24:27.830 --> 02:24:30.160
inaccessible to me. It's extremely strange.

3260
02:24:30.160 --> 02:24:34.580
So there's a view that I'm quite attracted to in the philosophy

3261
02:24:34.580 --> 02:24:36.320
of mine called panpsychism,

3262
02:24:36.320 --> 02:24:41.190
which literally means sort of like the view that consciousness

3263
02:24:41.190 --> 02:24:43.200
is everywhere or in everything.

3264
02:24:43.200 --> 02:24:45.120
It's not, it doesn't mean that everything is conscious. It

3265
02:24:45.120 --> 02:24:46.880
doesn't mean this pen is conscious.

3266
02:24:46.880 --> 02:24:49.740
What it means is that the stuff that the universe has made out

3267
02:24:49.740 --> 02:24:51.120
of, so the fundamental matter of

3268
02:24:51.120 --> 02:24:55.280
the universe has at least mental properties or might be mental

3269
02:24:55.280 --> 02:24:57.120
properties because when you say,

3270
02:24:57.120 --> 02:24:59.890
for example, you know, we're in a world of like molecules in

3271
02:24:59.890 --> 02:25:01.680
motion, right? I understand that

3272
02:25:01.680 --> 02:25:05.160
sentiment. But if you ask a scientist, what is stuff actually

3273
02:25:05.160 --> 02:25:07.680
made out of? Ultimately speaking,

3274
02:25:07.680 --> 02:25:10.440
they will not be able to tell you. For you personally, what

3275
02:25:10.440 --> 02:25:11.840
makes your life full of purpose

3276
02:25:11.840 --> 02:25:14.840
I can't just jump there, but it won't make much sense because

3277
02:25:14.840 --> 02:25:16.640
what I would say is something like

3278
02:25:16.640 --> 02:25:24.370
a recognition of the illusion of divisible selves, which doesn

3279
02:25:24.370 --> 02:25:25.760
't make a ton of sense,

3280
02:25:25.760 --> 02:25:29.960
unless you lay the groundwork, which can be explained in many

3281
02:25:29.960 --> 02:25:31.360
different ways and in fact

3282
02:25:31.360 --> 02:25:34.090
it's something which most, like the Vedic tradition, it's one

3283
02:25:34.090 --> 02:25:35.760
of the reasons I'm so attracted to it

3284
02:25:35.760 --> 02:25:39.280
and particularly the the Upanishads is because they seem to

3285
02:25:39.280 --> 02:25:41.760
embody this idea. They're constantly

3286
02:25:41.760 --> 02:25:46.020
banging on about how the individual self, the individualated

3287
02:25:46.020 --> 02:25:48.720
person is an illusion and there is one

3288
02:25:48.720 --> 02:25:51.980
ultimate self. They call it at man. But are you going to have

3289
02:25:51.980 --> 02:25:54.240
kids? I don't know. Do you want to have

3290
02:25:54.240 --> 02:25:56.830
kids? I hope so. Yeah. So you do want to have kids. Oh yeah.

3291
02:25:56.830 --> 02:26:01.520
Why? I'm not sure. I don't know.

3292
02:26:03.920 --> 02:26:06.450
It just feels, it feels as though I've got, it's a bit like

3293
02:26:06.450 --> 02:26:07.120
asking, you know,

3294
02:26:07.120 --> 02:26:10.560
that there's a, there's a literal explanation. If you ask me,

3295
02:26:10.560 --> 02:26:11.360
am I going to have dinner today?

3296
02:26:11.360 --> 02:26:14.040
I'll say yes. You say why? I could say, well, because I'm

3297
02:26:14.040 --> 02:26:15.280
hungry, but if you ask me like,

3298
02:26:15.280 --> 02:26:17.980
but like, why? Like, why? Why do you care about being hungry?

3299
02:26:17.980 --> 02:26:19.520
Why do you care about satisfying?

3300
02:26:19.520 --> 02:26:22.690
Well, I would say, I just cannot do. I want to have kids

3301
02:26:22.690 --> 02:26:23.840
because I think it'll bring a lot of joy to

3302
02:26:23.840 --> 02:26:26.370
my life. I think I'll enjoy the challenge. It's proven to be

3303
02:26:26.370 --> 02:26:30.880
awesome. Yes. So it's not for that sake.

3304
02:26:32.880 --> 02:26:35.730
I think everything can be moral to that. No, no, no, no, no. I

3305
02:26:35.730 --> 02:26:38.320
think everything everyone does at some,

3306
02:26:38.320 --> 02:26:41.310
you can look at the neurological level. Yeah. It's for the sake

3307
02:26:41.310 --> 02:26:42.640
of the reason why people,

3308
02:26:42.640 --> 02:26:45.920
why Dr. K works on that ward and saves the life is ultimately

3309
02:26:45.920 --> 02:26:47.840
because it's so then,

3310
02:26:47.840 --> 02:26:51.380
you know, in a way, I agree with you. But if, if it is true

3311
02:26:51.380 --> 02:26:53.200
that there is this sort of

3312
02:26:53.200 --> 02:26:55.560
thing called consciousness that the universe has made out of

3313
02:26:55.560 --> 02:26:57.680
and brains are kind of complex

3314
02:26:57.680 --> 02:27:00.850
organizations of consciousness, then when you ask me like, you

3315
02:27:00.850 --> 02:27:02.400
know, what, what's wrong with

3316
02:27:02.400 --> 02:27:04.930
harming another person on this, on this, on this, on this

3317
02:27:04.930 --> 02:27:06.560
materialistic worldview. Well, I think the

3318
02:27:06.560 --> 02:27:09.340
material of the universe is consciousness. And I think that

3319
02:27:09.340 --> 02:27:10.960
when I harmed someone else, it could

3320
02:27:10.960 --> 02:27:13.360
literally in a fundamental sense be a, be a case of self harm.

3321
02:27:13.360 --> 02:27:16.160
By the way, can I just say, because

3322
02:27:16.160 --> 02:27:19.050
it sounds a little bit insane, um, without the space to explain

3323
02:27:19.050 --> 02:27:20.320
the pants like it's worldview,

3324
02:27:20.320 --> 02:27:22.460
it sounds absolutely mental, but there's some, there are some

3325
02:27:22.460 --> 02:27:23.760
really interesting clues. Here's,

3326
02:27:23.760 --> 02:27:26.290
can I give you one clue? This is really, really fascinating

3327
02:27:26.290 --> 02:27:28.000
about the fact that the brain,

3328
02:27:28.000 --> 02:27:31.040
as Aldous Huxley said, it was a tool focusing the mind. Aldous

3329
02:27:31.040 --> 02:27:32.320
Huxley writes in the, in the doors of

3330
02:27:32.320 --> 02:27:34.630
perception, essential reading to anybody interested in

3331
02:27:34.630 --> 02:27:37.920
consciousness, by the way. Um, Aldous Huxley,

3332
02:27:37.920 --> 02:27:41.090
in the 20th century, takes a psychedelic drug, and he writes

3333
02:27:41.090 --> 02:27:42.560
about his experience, and he writes

3334
02:27:42.560 --> 02:27:45.260
about it beautifully. And one of the things he realizes is that

3335
02:27:45.260 --> 02:27:46.320
his mind has been opened,

3336
02:27:46.320 --> 02:27:50.020
and he thinks, okay, well, if my mind has been opened during

3337
02:27:50.020 --> 02:27:52.240
this experience, and that means that in

3338
02:27:52.240 --> 02:27:57.640
normal waking hours, something must be closing my mind. What

3339
02:27:57.640 --> 02:28:01.120
could be closing my mind? Answer,

3340
02:28:01.120 --> 02:28:06.800
the brain. He concludes that the brain is a tool for focusing

3341
02:28:06.800 --> 02:28:09.920
the mind. So the psychedelic experience,

3342
02:28:09.920 --> 02:28:12.160
this is before we've done any scientific experiments on this.

3343
02:28:12.160 --> 02:28:14.640
You can scan people's brains in

3344
02:28:14.640 --> 02:28:18.260
like an MRI scanner, right? Okay. So when you take a

3345
02:28:18.260 --> 02:28:21.280
psychedelic drug, your experience just

3346
02:28:21.280 --> 02:28:23.470
blows up, right? You start seeing colors. You didn't know

3347
02:28:23.470 --> 02:28:25.200
existed. You start experiencing things

3348
02:28:25.200 --> 02:28:28.080
as if they were new. It's like the experience is unimaginable.

3349
02:28:28.080 --> 02:28:30.240
So we've taken people,

3350
02:28:30.240 --> 02:28:32.150
and we've measured their brain activity and their, and their

3351
02:28:32.150 --> 02:28:33.440
brain activity is at a certain level,

3352
02:28:33.440 --> 02:28:36.220
and then you give them a psychedelic drug, and you put them in

3353
02:28:36.220 --> 02:28:37.440
the MRI scanner, and their brain

3354
02:28:37.440 --> 02:28:44.830
activity goes down. Brain activity goes down as the mental

3355
02:28:44.830 --> 02:28:47.920
experience expands and goes up,

3356
02:28:48.960 --> 02:28:53.200
which for the person who experiences the psychedelic drug, they

3357
02:28:53.200 --> 02:28:54.800
will report this as a feeling

3358
02:28:54.800 --> 02:28:57.660
that they just get from the experience. The scientist who

3359
02:28:57.660 --> 02:28:59.440
measures the brain activity, the

3360
02:28:59.440 --> 02:29:04.870
sage is writing the, the panichads, the Buddhist monk after a

3361
02:29:04.870 --> 02:29:07.120
series of long meditation will all

3362
02:29:07.120 --> 02:29:11.280
say the same thing, which is that in some inexplicable way,

3363
02:29:11.280 --> 02:29:13.760
consciousness is more foundational

3364
02:29:13.760 --> 02:29:16.930
than the brain is, and the brain is focusing consciousness, and

3365
02:29:16.930 --> 02:29:18.800
in some sense that means that our

3366
02:29:18.800 --> 02:29:23.470
individualated selves are essentially illusory. I'm going to do

3367
02:29:23.470 --> 02:29:24.480
my best in the same way that

3368
02:29:24.480 --> 02:29:27.070
distinction between objects are illusory. To support what you

3369
02:29:27.070 --> 02:29:29.680
're saying, I totally empathize with

3370
02:29:29.680 --> 02:29:32.850
having fallen into this mistake of invoking God or mine, not

3371
02:29:32.850 --> 02:29:34.880
having the bandwidth to explain

3372
02:29:34.880 --> 02:29:37.470
what I mean by opening myself up to misinterpretation. That's

3373
02:29:37.470 --> 02:29:38.320
also why I completely understand

3374
02:29:38.320 --> 02:29:44.770
we use that a moment ago. So I think the funny thing about this

3375
02:29:44.770 --> 02:29:45.680
is, if we look at the quantification of

3376
02:29:45.680 --> 02:29:48.850
meaning, I think everything that I said about self-

3377
02:29:48.850 --> 02:29:52.000
determination theory, you know, make choices

3378
02:29:52.000 --> 02:29:54.580
in life. Doesn't matter what they are, we get so caught up

3379
02:29:54.580 --> 02:29:56.160
about making the right choice,

3380
02:29:56.160 --> 02:29:58.350
where does the concept of right or on come from? It comes from

3381
02:29:58.350 --> 02:30:00.160
the social conditioning around us.

3382
02:30:00.160 --> 02:30:03.000
When I was nine years old, my grandmother was like, oh, you're

3383
02:30:03.000 --> 02:30:04.160
going to be great doctor,

3384
02:30:04.160 --> 02:30:07.070
one day, great doctor, great doctor, great doctor. And so that

3385
02:30:07.070 --> 02:30:08.240
I went to medical school, I was

3386
02:30:08.240 --> 02:30:11.580
pre-med, and I promptly failed out because the reason I wanted

3387
02:30:11.580 --> 02:30:12.960
to be a doctor is because I thought

3388
02:30:12.960 --> 02:30:14.580
it was going to be cool. And I was going to go to Harvard, by

3389
02:30:14.580 --> 02:30:15.760
the way, I was going to be the best

3390
02:30:15.760 --> 02:30:18.930
doctor, not just a doctor. And that didn't really align with my

3391
02:30:18.930 --> 02:30:20.480
motivational system at all. It was

3392
02:30:20.480 --> 02:30:23.960
coming from the ego. And so I kind of failed out. And then

3393
02:30:23.960 --> 02:30:26.160
seven years later started med school,

3394
02:30:26.160 --> 02:30:29.520
a few years later, that wound up ironically training at Harvard

3395
02:30:29.520 --> 02:30:31.040
and being faculty there.

3396
02:30:32.000 --> 02:30:35.750
And so going back to karma for a second, I share this example

3397
02:30:35.750 --> 02:30:37.280
because a lot of times when we

3398
02:30:37.280 --> 02:30:41.080
look at things that we think are bad. And I'm not saying that

3399
02:30:41.080 --> 02:30:42.960
cancer applies here clearly,

3400
02:30:42.960 --> 02:30:45.740
but this is what the meaning making the practical functional

3401
02:30:45.740 --> 02:30:47.840
work of when someone comes into my office,

3402
02:30:47.840 --> 02:30:50.840
who was the result, who was sexually abused or something like

3403
02:30:50.840 --> 02:30:52.320
that, how do we help that person?

3404
02:30:52.320 --> 02:30:55.820
We make meaning. So for me, this was, I used to think that

3405
02:30:55.820 --> 02:30:59.040
there's no scenario in which a 2.5 GPA

3406
02:30:59.040 --> 02:31:03.950
is better than a 4.0 GPA, that in school, getting F's is in no

3407
02:31:03.950 --> 02:31:06.080
way better than getting A's.

3408
02:31:06.080 --> 02:31:10.770
Now years later, I realized that all of those experiences of

3409
02:31:10.770 --> 02:31:14.080
suffering, of struggling, of having no

3410
02:31:14.080 --> 02:31:17.000
meaning in life, playing video games for 20 hours a day,

3411
02:31:17.000 --> 02:31:19.040
joining a fraternity when I was a freshman,

3412
02:31:19.040 --> 02:31:22.190
which is lots of great times. You know, made me the person that

3413
02:31:22.190 --> 02:31:23.520
I am, and though even if you look at

3414
02:31:23.520 --> 02:31:26.900
the brand of Dr. K, the whole point was I was a college dropout

3415
02:31:26.900 --> 02:31:28.720
and then ended up as faculty at

3416
02:31:28.720 --> 02:31:32.470
Harvard Medical School, right? So in this context, that a lot

3417
02:31:32.470 --> 02:31:34.560
of times that if we sort of,

3418
02:31:34.560 --> 02:31:38.720
the more we are zoomed into our life, the less we will see this

3419
02:31:38.720 --> 02:31:40.240
broader perspective.

3420
02:31:40.240 --> 02:31:43.020
And this is really fascinating. If you look at the work of

3421
02:31:43.020 --> 02:31:43.920
Victor Frankl,

3422
02:31:43.920 --> 02:31:47.680
because Victor Frankl was a neurologist, went through the

3423
02:31:47.680 --> 02:31:50.560
Holocaust, became a psychologist,

3424
02:31:50.560 --> 02:31:53.400
and then he sort of, literally, his work is something called

3425
02:31:53.400 --> 02:31:54.880
logo therapy, which is,

3426
02:31:54.880 --> 02:31:57.910
how do we consistently help people make meaning in life? And he

3427
02:31:57.910 --> 02:31:59.440
designed a system of therapy.

3428
02:31:59.440 --> 02:32:03.930
And the first part of it is de-individualation, is the ability

3429
02:32:03.930 --> 02:32:06.160
of zooming out from your thing. When

3430
02:32:06.160 --> 02:32:08.900
someone feels like my life is falling apart, there's no point

3431
02:32:08.900 --> 02:32:11.200
anymore, why? Because I just got dumped,

3432
02:32:11.200 --> 02:32:13.920
and she's never going to talk to me again. Zoom out a little

3433
02:32:13.920 --> 02:32:15.360
bit. This is not the end of the

3434
02:32:15.360 --> 02:32:18.780
world. Your life is bigger than this one thing. So the more

3435
02:32:18.780 --> 02:32:20.800
that we zoom out from a mechanistic

3436
02:32:20.800 --> 02:32:24.130
perspective, the more meaning we find in life, and what is the

3437
02:32:24.130 --> 02:32:27.120
ultimate zooming out? Relationship with

3438
02:32:27.120 --> 02:32:29.870
God, because now we're way out here. Right? This isn't about

3439
02:32:29.870 --> 02:32:31.680
you. This isn't about someone dying of

3440
02:32:31.680 --> 02:32:34.560
cancer. This is about something that goes way bigger than you.

3441
02:32:34.560 --> 02:32:36.800
So what I would say is you can do

3442
02:32:36.800 --> 02:32:39.560
all the scientific stuff. It'll get you to eight out of 10,

3443
02:32:39.560 --> 02:32:40.800
maybe nine out of 10.

3444
02:32:40.800 --> 02:32:45.380
But, and this is what's so crazy, the scientific stuff I am

3445
02:32:45.380 --> 02:32:48.160
incredibly confident I can defend.

3446
02:32:48.800 --> 02:32:51.650
I can point to studies. We can talk about psychedelics, the

3447
02:32:51.650 --> 02:32:53.520
default mode network, self-determination,

3448
02:32:53.520 --> 02:32:56.390
theory, logo therapy. There are tons of studies, radical

3449
02:32:56.390 --> 02:32:58.640
acceptance, dialectical behavioral therapy,

3450
02:32:58.640 --> 02:33:01.450
all of these things, acceptance and commitment therapy, all of

3451
02:33:01.450 --> 02:33:02.640
these things have to do with

3452
02:33:02.640 --> 02:33:06.000
making meaning in the world. But if you really want to find

3453
02:33:06.000 --> 02:33:08.000
that meaning, you keep on asking this

3454
02:33:08.000 --> 02:33:10.260
question. I mean, you selected that question because you're

3455
02:33:10.260 --> 02:33:13.120
looking for it. Right? And you won't let

3456
02:33:13.120 --> 02:33:17.160
him get away with some philosophical explanation. You're like,

3457
02:33:17.160 --> 02:33:18.960
no, you tell me when you wake up,

3458
02:33:18.960 --> 02:33:21.150
where is it? Show me where it is. Show me how to get it.

3459
02:33:21.150 --> 02:33:22.320
Because you're understanding his

3460
02:33:22.320 --> 02:33:25.150
shit because you've never had a direct experience of buying.

3461
02:33:25.150 --> 02:33:26.960
And so you're like, bro, you don't know,

3462
02:33:26.960 --> 02:33:31.120
God, how do you find it? The desperation of like, no, no, no

3463
02:33:31.120 --> 02:33:33.360
slipping away, Alex. No random

3464
02:33:33.360 --> 02:33:36.670
stories and ending up in it. Not random. Sorry. No stories that

3465
02:33:36.670 --> 02:33:38.880
end up in a delightful way. Right?

3466
02:33:38.880 --> 02:33:43.250
So how do you find that last chunk that last way that last step

3467
02:33:43.250 --> 02:33:45.600
of the way there is through the

3468
02:33:45.600 --> 02:33:51.130
direct experience of Brahman? So when he says pan-psychism in

3469
02:33:51.130 --> 02:33:54.880
the Hindu system, we believe that

3470
02:33:54.880 --> 02:33:58.400
consciousness is the foundational element of the universe. That

3471
02:33:58.400 --> 02:33:59.120
man is Brahman.

3472
02:33:59.120 --> 02:34:03.670
At one is not, well, sort of. Yes and no. At one is individual

3473
02:34:03.670 --> 02:34:06.080
soul. Brahman is the cosmic soul,

3474
02:34:06.080 --> 02:34:10.270
the cosmic consciousness that the fundamental thing that is out

3475
02:34:10.270 --> 02:34:12.400
there is transcendent and having

3476
02:34:12.400 --> 02:34:17.270
a relationship with that thing is how we get meaning. This is

3477
02:34:17.270 --> 02:34:19.680
how we get a nine out of 10 or a 10 out

3478
02:34:19.680 --> 02:34:23.260
of 10 meaning because this guy has done something where he had

3479
02:34:23.260 --> 02:34:25.040
this experience where he's been

3480
02:34:25.040 --> 02:34:28.840
talking to God, but one day someone answered the phone. And

3481
02:34:28.840 --> 02:34:31.760
when you have that transcendent experience,

3482
02:34:31.760 --> 02:34:34.520
when you have this direct experience of the Brahman, and this

3483
02:34:34.520 --> 02:34:35.600
is why I've been avoiding saying

3484
02:34:35.600 --> 02:34:39.300
it because it's completely undefensible. It is what I believe

3485
02:34:39.300 --> 02:34:42.400
is philosophically true. It is what I believe

3486
02:34:42.400 --> 02:34:47.110
is absolutely true. And it is not transmissible. It can only be

3487
02:34:47.110 --> 02:34:48.240
witness. Exactly.

3488
02:34:48.240 --> 02:34:51.600
That's the most important point is that it is why I say that

3489
02:34:51.600 --> 02:34:52.960
this is something that everybody has

3490
02:34:52.960 --> 02:34:55.940
a side of fresh because if there is an answer to this question,

3491
02:34:55.940 --> 02:34:59.040
it is something that you cannot

3492
02:34:59.040 --> 02:35:03.200
syllogize. By the way, this isn't just some like Hindu thing.

3493
02:35:03.200 --> 02:35:04.480
Christian say the same thing about

3494
02:35:04.480 --> 02:35:08.420
their religious experiences. The ineffable quality, William

3495
02:35:08.420 --> 02:35:11.120
James famously tried to identify the

3496
02:35:11.120 --> 02:35:14.290
characteristic aspects of religious experience. And one of the

3497
02:35:14.290 --> 02:35:16.160
most important was the ineffability,

3498
02:35:16.160 --> 02:35:19.370
the inability to explain to what that means. The inability to

3499
02:35:19.370 --> 02:35:21.120
put into words and to explain

3500
02:35:21.120 --> 02:35:23.900
and to say what it's like. And interestingly, some of my

3501
02:35:23.900 --> 02:35:26.240
favorite examples of this throughout history

3502
02:35:26.880 --> 02:35:31.160
have been some of the most important Christian thinkers of all

3503
02:35:31.160 --> 02:35:33.440
time who have essentially abandoned

3504
02:35:33.440 --> 02:35:37.200
the project of communicating ideas to other people. I mentioned

3505
02:35:37.200 --> 02:35:38.720
Blaise Pascal earlier,

3506
02:35:38.720 --> 02:35:41.560
he famously had his night of fire where he has a religious

3507
02:35:41.560 --> 02:35:43.200
experience and he's one of the greatest

3508
02:35:43.200 --> 02:35:46.370
writers in Christian history. And he has this experience of God

3509
02:35:46.370 --> 02:35:48.000
and he writes in his diary and later

3510
02:35:48.000 --> 02:35:51.730
has it etched into his jacket, fire, he writes, not the God of

3511
02:35:51.730 --> 02:35:54.880
the philosophers, the God of Abraham,

3512
02:35:54.880 --> 02:35:57.900
the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. Because he realizes that he

3513
02:35:57.900 --> 02:35:59.120
's experienced something which is

3514
02:35:59.120 --> 02:36:01.810
not this abstract first cause, design of the universe, it's not

3515
02:36:01.810 --> 02:36:03.200
that it's something more deeply

3516
02:36:03.200 --> 02:36:07.390
personal. Thomas Aquinas, undoubtedly the greatest metaphys

3517
02:36:07.390 --> 02:36:10.240
ician of Christian history, writes the

3518
02:36:10.240 --> 02:36:12.770
Sumer Theologica, which is to this day, one of the most

3519
02:36:12.770 --> 02:36:15.200
celebrated works of Christian metaphysics,

3520
02:36:15.200 --> 02:36:18.900
trying to explain and analyze the nature of God, it's where we

3521
02:36:18.900 --> 02:36:20.720
get his famous five ways of

3522
02:36:20.720 --> 02:36:23.690
showing the existence of God and all of this kind of stuff and

3523
02:36:23.690 --> 02:36:25.520
it's really long and still studied

3524
02:36:25.520 --> 02:36:31.090
in depth to this day, he left it unfinished when he died. Why?

3525
02:36:31.090 --> 02:36:33.360
Because one day he was performing

3526
02:36:33.360 --> 02:36:36.120
the Eucharist and he had a religious experience, he believed

3527
02:36:36.120 --> 02:36:38.000
that he experienced the presence of God

3528
02:36:38.000 --> 02:36:42.840
and he stopped writing it and he was he was practically begged

3529
02:36:42.840 --> 02:36:46.320
by a friend and patron like Thomas,

3530
02:36:46.320 --> 02:36:50.620
you've got to finish the book and he wrote back and said, I can

3531
02:36:50.620 --> 02:36:52.960
write no more after what I've seen,

3532
02:36:52.960 --> 02:36:55.490
it's like straw compared to the experience I've had. So quite

3533
02:36:55.490 --> 02:36:57.760
clearly, when you look at people who

3534
02:36:57.760 --> 02:37:00.930
actually report the stuff that people want, which is the

3535
02:37:00.930 --> 02:37:03.120
certainty, the experience where they say,

3536
02:37:03.120 --> 02:37:06.970
I've met God and I know what that feels like, the number one

3537
02:37:06.970 --> 02:37:09.520
characteristic of such experiences is that

3538
02:37:09.520 --> 02:37:11.930
they are not transmissible, is that you cannot write it down

3539
02:37:11.930 --> 02:37:13.760
and give that experience to somebody else.

3540
02:37:13.760 --> 02:37:17.720
So here's the beautiful thing, you can't write down the

3541
02:37:17.720 --> 02:37:20.480
experience, but you can absolutely write

3542
02:37:20.480 --> 02:37:24.950
down the process of finding that experience. Yes. So I'm with

3543
02:37:24.950 --> 02:37:27.440
you, that is an individual journey.

3544
02:37:27.440 --> 02:37:30.430
And I think this is where something really interesting, I don't

3545
02:37:30.430 --> 02:37:31.840
know if this is like accurate or not,

3546
02:37:31.840 --> 02:37:35.720
I sort of notice that all of our most common religions have

3547
02:37:35.720 --> 02:37:38.160
spiritual traditions that are not

3548
02:37:38.160 --> 02:37:41.200
necessarily the same as the religion. Yeah. So in Hinduism, it

3549
02:37:41.200 --> 02:37:42.560
's really interesting because we have

3550
02:37:42.560 --> 02:37:47.270
priests and then we have swamis. A priest is not a yogi. So the

3551
02:37:47.270 --> 02:37:48.960
person who does the practice of the

3552
02:37:48.960 --> 02:37:51.760
religion is not the same as the person who sits in the Himalay

3553
02:37:51.760 --> 02:37:53.680
as and meditates for 12 hours a day.

3554
02:37:53.680 --> 02:37:57.270
And even if we look at like Christianity, you know, I know, so

3555
02:37:57.270 --> 02:37:59.440
I read a Gnostic text for the

3556
02:37:59.440 --> 02:38:03.600
first time, which one, Thunder Perfect Mind. And what I

3557
02:38:03.600 --> 02:38:05.840
realized is, oh, I know exactly what

3558
02:38:05.840 --> 02:38:08.780
this is. I read some stuff about it and people were like, oh,

3559
02:38:08.780 --> 02:38:10.400
it's talking about this. I'm like,

3560
02:38:10.400 --> 02:38:13.430
no, it's not. Thunder Perfect Mind is a series of meditation

3561
02:38:13.430 --> 02:38:15.040
techniques. That's what it is,

3562
02:38:15.040 --> 02:38:19.800
right? That that's what it's a series of meditations. And if

3563
02:38:19.800 --> 02:38:22.000
you do these meditations and there's

3564
02:38:22.000 --> 02:38:24.930
all kinds of stuff, and I think, you know, Sufiism was there. K

3565
02:38:24.930 --> 02:38:26.560
abbalah is there in Judaism. There's

3566
02:38:26.560 --> 02:38:31.320
the Gnostic tradition. Every religion has this spiritual

3567
02:38:31.320 --> 02:38:34.560
component, which sometimes comes down

3568
02:38:34.560 --> 02:38:37.220
to going to church, witnessing God, but you know, the whole

3569
02:38:37.220 --> 02:38:38.880
thing is like you gotta have fingers

3570
02:38:38.880 --> 02:38:41.640
cross, which is part of the way why it's designed because there

3571
02:38:41.640 --> 02:38:43.200
's no definitive way to do it. You

3572
02:38:43.200 --> 02:38:46.420
have to have God's grace to get it. There's a certain amount of

3573
02:38:46.420 --> 02:38:48.240
surrender. There's a certain amount

3574
02:38:48.240 --> 02:38:51.460
of ego that you have to get rid of in order to open yourself up

3575
02:38:51.460 --> 02:38:53.760
to God. But there are a series

3576
02:38:53.760 --> 02:38:58.230
of practices that you can do that will cultivate the right

3577
02:38:58.230 --> 02:39:00.880
setting for God to pick up the phone.

3578
02:39:00.880 --> 02:39:04.600
These are things that we will sort of use psychedelics. It's

3579
02:39:04.600 --> 02:39:06.000
very good evidence for these psychedelics,

3580
02:39:06.000 --> 02:39:08.770
I was about to say. Yeah. So psychedelics will do this kind of

3581
02:39:08.770 --> 02:39:10.960
thing where it takes you to that

3582
02:39:10.960 --> 02:39:14.380
state to a certain degree, but there's way, way, way further to

3583
02:39:14.380 --> 02:39:16.240
go than what psychedelics can do.

3584
02:39:16.240 --> 02:39:18.790
I would say psychedelics take you to a helicopter to about 6,

3585
02:39:18.790 --> 02:39:21.120
000 feet. You can go to 20,000 feet,

3586
02:39:21.120 --> 02:39:24.540
30,000 feet, have experiences of Brahman. And this is where all

3587
02:39:24.540 --> 02:39:26.080
of these like weird esoteric

3588
02:39:26.080 --> 02:39:29.560
practices from the science of yoga, kind of like now that we

3589
02:39:29.560 --> 02:39:31.520
have so much like mug mindfulness

3590
02:39:31.520 --> 02:39:33.880
everywhere where everyone's got apps and stuff like that. We've

3591
02:39:33.880 --> 02:39:35.280
lost a lot of the most important

3592
02:39:35.280 --> 02:39:38.840
stuff that if you want to have a transcendent experience, there

3593
02:39:38.840 --> 02:39:40.080
are things you have to do with your

3594
02:39:40.080 --> 02:39:42.150
diet. There are things that you have to do with your

3595
02:39:42.150 --> 02:39:44.480
respiratory rate. You have to set up your

3596
02:39:44.480 --> 02:39:49.510
body's capacity to handle metabolic acidosis because yeah. And

3597
02:39:49.510 --> 02:39:51.200
you've done this yourself.

3598
02:39:51.200 --> 02:39:55.820
I will not answer that question. You can answer the question

3599
02:39:55.820 --> 02:39:56.880
whether you've done it or not.

3600
02:39:56.880 --> 02:39:59.280
I can. I will not. Why?

3601
02:40:00.800 --> 02:40:06.400
The cost to my Shakti is too high. So I asked you this question

3602
02:40:06.400 --> 02:40:07.440
before, do you remember?

3603
02:40:07.440 --> 02:40:12.190
What did I say? You told me that you have seen things and gone

3604
02:40:12.190 --> 02:40:14.400
to a place. But when I asked you

3605
02:40:14.400 --> 02:40:18.820
what you saw, you told me you wouldn't tell me. Yeah. But you

3606
02:40:18.820 --> 02:40:20.480
're happy to say that you have

3607
02:40:20.480 --> 02:40:23.350
done this. No, I didn't say that I've done this. So you said to

3608
02:40:23.350 --> 02:40:24.960
me last time. Well, maybe I

3609
02:40:24.960 --> 02:40:27.890
made a mistake. I mean, sort of. So if that's what I said last

3610
02:40:27.890 --> 02:40:29.920
time, that's my answer then. My

3611
02:40:29.920 --> 02:40:32.450
answer today is I will not talk. I will not answer that

3612
02:40:32.450 --> 02:40:34.160
question. And the reason you answer the

3613
02:40:34.160 --> 02:40:36.760
question is because the depletion of the Shakti is too high.

3614
02:40:36.760 --> 02:40:37.920
And what does that mean?

3615
02:40:37.920 --> 02:40:45.990
Okay. So us, okay. So it sounds like I'm locked out of the

3616
02:40:45.990 --> 02:40:46.960
house like I can't.

3617
02:40:46.960 --> 02:40:50.130
There are many reasons, but okay, so panpsychism. There's this

3618
02:40:50.130 --> 02:40:51.440
idea that there's this weird

3619
02:40:51.440 --> 02:40:54.610
collective consciousness. That's the basic unit. I think we can

3620
02:40:54.610 --> 02:40:56.560
easily call it God, a relationship

3621
02:40:56.560 --> 02:40:59.490
with that thing. So I'm down here. It's up there. So the key

3622
02:40:59.490 --> 02:41:01.680
thing is if we look at psychedelic

3623
02:41:01.680 --> 02:41:05.690
usage, if we look at dark night of the soul, if we look at

3624
02:41:05.690 --> 02:41:07.840
these moments of rapture, where

3625
02:41:07.840 --> 02:41:10.450
you go into church and one of two things is happening, either

3626
02:41:10.450 --> 02:41:12.400
your psychological defense mechanisms

3627
02:41:12.400 --> 02:41:14.930
are creating the ultimate cope. And you're saying now I'm

3628
02:41:14.930 --> 02:41:16.800
healed even though you're not,

3629
02:41:16.800 --> 02:41:19.830
or you actually have a direct experience of God and you are

3630
02:41:19.830 --> 02:41:22.320
transformed. What is the nature of

3631
02:41:22.320 --> 02:41:25.570
that transformation? It is the loss of ego. That is the most

3632
02:41:25.570 --> 02:41:27.760
conserved thing we surrender before God

3633
02:41:27.760 --> 02:41:29.990
before God, we are nothing, right? Doesn't matter which

3634
02:41:29.990 --> 02:41:31.440
religion you talk to. This is all,

3635
02:41:31.440 --> 02:41:34.350
this is where I think that there's like evidence of truth with

3636
02:41:34.350 --> 02:41:36.080
a capital T because human beings

3637
02:41:36.080 --> 02:41:40.270
from all over the planet have done these explorations using the

3638
02:41:40.270 --> 02:41:42.160
technology of our mind and our

3639
02:41:42.160 --> 02:41:45.580
consciousness and we arrive at very similar conclusions. So the

3640
02:41:45.580 --> 02:41:49.120
beautiful thing is that when our ego is

3641
02:41:49.120 --> 02:41:54.010
active in the most powerful way, it becomes narcissism also

3642
02:41:54.010 --> 02:41:56.560
becomes things like depression,

3643
02:41:56.560 --> 02:42:00.020
still actually a very ego. I'm terrible. I'm pathetic. I'm

3644
02:42:00.020 --> 02:42:01.680
worthless. The world would be better

3645
02:42:01.680 --> 02:42:04.530
off without me. The focus is on me, me, me, me, me. It's hyper

3646
02:42:04.530 --> 02:42:06.000
active default mode network.

3647
02:42:06.000 --> 02:42:09.970
So in order to connect to the divine, you need to dissolve your

3648
02:42:09.970 --> 02:42:11.520
ego as much as possible.

3649
02:42:12.480 --> 02:42:16.950
So the reason you don't tell me is because if I say it, my ego

3650
02:42:16.950 --> 02:42:22.320
will increase. You also will not, what will happen is

3651
02:42:22.320 --> 02:42:25.820
you'll get an idea of it, right? The more I talk about it, the

3652
02:42:25.820 --> 02:42:28.400
more that your mind will create a map without

3653
02:42:28.400 --> 02:42:31.950
experience. So I do not discuss my experiences in meditation.

3654
02:42:31.950 --> 02:42:34.160
What I will absolutely say though, and

3655
02:42:34.160 --> 02:42:36.940
this is what I love about it, Alex said, this is the one thing

3656
02:42:36.940 --> 02:42:38.640
we cannot stand on the shoulders of

3657
02:42:38.640 --> 02:42:42.530
giants, you have to walk this whole journey by yourself. No one

3658
02:42:42.530 --> 02:42:43.920
else can walk it for you.

3659
02:42:43.920 --> 02:42:48.470
So I won't tell you how far I've gone. Maybe I'm a, maybe I'm

3660
02:42:48.470 --> 02:42:50.720
just, you know, talking shit who knows,

3661
02:42:50.720 --> 02:42:53.710
but what I will tell you is that you don't need the answer from

3662
02:42:53.710 --> 02:42:55.360
me. Why are you asking me

3663
02:42:55.360 --> 02:42:57.630
because you want to know that you walk it? If you see the

3664
02:42:57.630 --> 02:42:59.440
Buddha kill him, that's the meaning of this

3665
02:42:59.440 --> 02:43:03.600
one interpretive meaning of this, if this Buddhist Cohen is

3666
02:43:03.600 --> 02:43:06.160
stop looking for gurus and start looking

3667
02:43:06.160 --> 02:43:08.710
inside yourself. Do you think I could then sit here and say

3668
02:43:08.710 --> 02:43:10.240
what your experience is not true?

3669
02:43:10.240 --> 02:43:14.470
And I absolutely. Yeah. Of course. And I could, I could pick it

3670
02:43:14.470 --> 02:43:15.600
apart and stuff like that.

3671
02:43:15.600 --> 02:43:17.890
Absolutely. So this is the thing that I said. Is there any

3672
02:43:17.890 --> 02:43:21.040
value in that from what for me doing that

3673
02:43:21.040 --> 02:43:24.750
to you? Of course, there's value for you. If you wanted to, if

3674
02:43:24.750 --> 02:43:26.400
you want to pick me apart,

3675
02:43:26.400 --> 02:43:29.010
if you want to continue to live the life that you, you live, if

3676
02:43:29.010 --> 02:43:30.560
you want to continue to get

3677
02:43:30.560 --> 02:43:33.760
five out of 10 meaning, because you've accomplished a lot. If a

3678
02:43:33.760 --> 02:43:35.360
company, you have a lot of stuff,

3679
02:43:35.360 --> 02:43:38.100
I mean, so many videos that you have left, so many people that

3680
02:43:38.100 --> 02:43:39.440
you help millions of people

3681
02:43:39.440 --> 02:43:42.660
across the globe, right? I say this because that's what's

3682
02:43:42.660 --> 02:43:46.000
happening here. What that Alex is picking

3683
02:43:46.000 --> 02:43:49.170
apart. Fine. So I have no problem with picking things apart. If

3684
02:43:49.170 --> 02:43:50.320
you want to pick things apart,

3685
02:43:50.320 --> 02:43:53.000
pick things apart, but be very clear about what picking things

3686
02:43:53.000 --> 02:43:54.320
apart does. What does it do?

3687
02:43:54.320 --> 02:43:57.800
So it's a great question. I have a different way of answering

3688
02:43:57.800 --> 02:43:58.000
it.

3689
02:43:58.000 --> 02:44:02.240
So when I listened to philosophers, like these guys were just

3690
02:44:02.240 --> 02:44:04.000
in it about evil and if

3691
02:44:04.000 --> 02:44:07.440
if evil was created when Eve ate the apple, was she evil when

3692
02:44:07.440 --> 02:44:08.640
she made the apple, right?

3693
02:44:08.640 --> 02:44:11.040
It's so great. It's picking things apart. So it's so

3694
02:44:11.040 --> 02:44:13.280
interesting because as a psychiatrist,

3695
02:44:13.280 --> 02:44:17.560
my training is actually the exact opposite. What I've trained

3696
02:44:17.560 --> 02:44:20.480
myself to do is to twist

3697
02:44:20.480 --> 02:44:24.120
in turn in mental gymnastics to understand somebody else's view

3698
02:44:24.120 --> 02:44:25.680
. When a patient walks into my

3699
02:44:25.680 --> 02:44:28.100
office and they say, I'm suicidal, I don't want to pick their

3700
02:44:28.100 --> 02:44:29.520
view apart. No, you have so much

3701
02:44:29.520 --> 02:44:32.730
to live for, it doesn't work. I try to understand them. So

3702
02:44:32.730 --> 02:44:35.600
there is value to picking things

3703
02:44:35.600 --> 02:44:38.540
apart in terms of political debate, in terms of your arguing

3704
02:44:38.540 --> 02:44:40.240
with your wife, whether you should buy

3705
02:44:40.240 --> 02:44:43.180
a car or lease a car, there are all kinds of values to picking

3706
02:44:43.180 --> 02:44:44.800
things apart. But the question is,

3707
02:44:44.800 --> 02:44:48.960
what do you want? Now, I think if you take Alex's road, which I

3708
02:44:48.960 --> 02:44:50.400
think is going to change real quick

3709
02:44:50.400 --> 02:44:58.000
if it hasn't. Why? Be honest. I think he's going to go down the

3710
02:44:58.000 --> 02:44:59.920
road of Gnosis if he isn't already.

3711
02:44:59.920 --> 02:45:07.980
Gnosis. What is Gnosis? Alex. Gnosis is a Greek term. Gnosis

3712
02:45:07.980 --> 02:45:09.760
means knowledge, but it's attached to

3713
02:45:09.760 --> 02:45:13.680
I guess a kind of an ancient school of philosophy which

3714
02:45:13.680 --> 02:45:18.240
believes that truth is obtained from looking

3715
02:45:18.240 --> 02:45:22.610
inward. Do you mean Gnosis isn't? Not in our system. So I think

3716
02:45:22.610 --> 02:45:25.200
if you want to, Alex, it's not a

3717
02:45:25.200 --> 02:45:28.560
philosophy. It's a practice. But what do you mean when you say,

3718
02:45:28.560 --> 02:45:29.440
I mean, see when I asked you,

3719
02:45:29.440 --> 02:45:32.210
you said, I'm going to go down a, you got to walk down the Gn

3720
02:45:32.210 --> 02:45:34.160
ostic road. Would you tell us

3721
02:45:34.160 --> 02:45:39.520
what you're going to do that? What does it mean that I think

3722
02:45:39.520 --> 02:45:40.320
you're going to do that?

3723
02:45:40.320 --> 02:45:43.220
What is the thing that you think I'm going to? Yeah, I think

3724
02:45:43.220 --> 02:45:44.160
you're going to have to start

3725
02:45:44.160 --> 02:45:48.320
practicing Gnostic stuff. What does that mean? So Thunder

3726
02:45:48.320 --> 02:45:49.840
Perfect Mind is a series of

3727
02:45:49.840 --> 02:45:54.560
meditations. If you look at that and you do what it tells you

3728
02:45:54.560 --> 02:45:56.720
to do, you will understand what the

3729
02:45:56.720 --> 02:45:59.890
Gnostics understood. You have to walk that path that they

3730
02:45:59.890 --> 02:46:02.880
walked. But doing so does not involve

3731
02:46:02.880 --> 02:46:07.090
the philosophy of Gnosis, right? That the part of Gnosis, I don

3732
02:46:07.090 --> 02:46:07.840
't know what the philosophy,

3733
02:46:07.840 --> 02:46:10.040
I mean, I get what you're saying from philosophical perspective

3734
02:46:10.040 --> 02:46:11.280
, but the Gnostics were

3735
02:46:11.280 --> 02:46:14.450
practitioners, as far as I understand, I read one Gnostic text

3736
02:46:14.450 --> 02:46:16.000
and I was like, Oh, this is like a,

3737
02:46:16.000 --> 02:46:18.200
this is like a meditationist. So what is it that makes you

3738
02:46:18.200 --> 02:46:20.320
think? What do you look at me and say, that's

3739
02:46:20.320 --> 02:46:25.590
I mean, you've read one Gnostic text. I have an intuition. So I

3740
02:46:25.590 --> 02:46:28.000
wonder what will you mean?

3741
02:46:28.000 --> 02:46:32.660
It's not explainable. But, but you have an intuition based on

3742
02:46:32.660 --> 02:46:33.920
pattern recognition,

3743
02:46:33.920 --> 02:46:37.410
sure, that an individual like Alex, I don't know, no, not

3744
02:46:37.410 --> 02:46:39.600
pattern recognition. This is indefensible.

3745
02:46:39.600 --> 02:46:44.760
Okay, I get told a lot by a lot of different people that I'm

3746
02:46:44.760 --> 02:46:46.720
quite clearly on a particular

3747
02:46:46.720 --> 02:46:50.500
road of Christians. Christians very often say that it seems as

3748
02:46:50.500 --> 02:46:51.680
though I'm on the verge of

3749
02:46:51.680 --> 02:46:54.280
Christian conversion. And I think that's often just a result of

3750
02:46:54.280 --> 02:46:55.680
having nice conversations with

3751
02:46:55.680 --> 02:46:57.760
them where I don't jump down their throat and say, actually,

3752
02:46:57.760 --> 02:46:59.760
there's some, there's some

3753
02:46:59.760 --> 02:47:01.540
truth in there. So actually, there are some good arguments with

3754
02:47:01.540 --> 02:47:02.720
the resurrection of Jesus or

3755
02:47:02.720 --> 02:47:05.250
this kind of stuff. And certainly I have people saying, you

3756
02:47:05.250 --> 02:47:06.160
know, he's so close.

3757
02:47:06.160 --> 02:47:08.470
Is that because he's kind of annoying. Really a man searching

3758
02:47:08.470 --> 02:47:10.320
for meaning something about

3759
02:47:10.320 --> 02:47:12.390
you don't know what notice is you said it's a series of

3760
02:47:12.390 --> 02:47:14.640
practices, but like what so is, you know,

3761
02:47:14.640 --> 02:47:19.600
so as vegetarianism. So I think no, from what reading one text,

3762
02:47:19.600 --> 02:47:20.720
I'm not a Gnostic expert.

3763
02:47:20.720 --> 02:47:25.570
Okay. So there's a set of practices that if you do them have a

3764
02:47:25.570 --> 02:47:27.280
high probabilistic chance

3765
02:47:27.280 --> 02:47:30.480
of having a direct experience of God, like what?

3766
02:47:31.520 --> 02:47:34.740
Yeah, so own chanting is a simple example, right? But there are

3767
02:47:34.740 --> 02:47:36.240
things that you can do to

3768
02:47:36.240 --> 02:47:40.800
increase the likelihood of having a transcendent experience of

3769
02:47:40.800 --> 02:47:42.640
own chanting. So for example, if you

3770
02:47:42.640 --> 02:47:46.850
adopt Sidhassan, so Sidhassan is a particular yoga posture

3771
02:47:46.850 --> 02:47:50.240
where your left heel is placed against

3772
02:47:50.240 --> 02:47:54.560
the perinium of your body. So the perinium is the, the taint,

3773
02:47:54.560 --> 02:47:56.560
the area between the anus and the

3774
02:47:56.560 --> 02:48:01.710
scrotum. So if you also do certain baronium practices, so these

3775
02:48:01.710 --> 02:48:03.600
will do things that induce a very,

3776
02:48:03.600 --> 02:48:06.910
very, very low respiratory rate. And one of the things that we

3777
02:48:06.910 --> 02:48:09.840
know about transcendental experiences

3778
02:48:09.840 --> 02:48:14.260
is that high levels of CO2 tend to make, actually, we don't

3779
02:48:14.260 --> 02:48:16.400
know this, but this is kind of the

3780
02:48:16.400 --> 02:48:19.940
best hypothesis that I've read that I happen to think is true

3781
02:48:19.940 --> 02:48:21.600
that if we alter the neurons of

3782
02:48:21.600 --> 02:48:25.480
our brain chemistry, we can evoke transcendental experiences.

3783
02:48:25.480 --> 02:48:27.760
So if you look at some of these esoteric

3784
02:48:27.760 --> 02:48:30.740
traditions, what'll happen is, is you have all of these

3785
02:48:30.740 --> 02:48:33.120
different practices. And as you do these

3786
02:48:33.120 --> 02:48:36.380
practices, I think you are very clearly refining your

3787
02:48:36.380 --> 02:48:39.360
physiology and your neurology to induce certain

3788
02:48:39.360 --> 02:48:42.860
states. And let's remember that psychedelics don't create

3789
02:48:42.860 --> 02:48:46.240
anything. Yes. Psychedelics simply activate

3790
02:48:46.240 --> 02:48:50.990
the circuitry that is already there. Right. But yeah, that's,

3791
02:48:50.990 --> 02:48:53.440
that's a crucial point to make.

3792
02:48:53.440 --> 02:48:56.790
I love to understand why you think he's going to go around that

3793
02:48:56.790 --> 02:48:57.120
path.

3794
02:48:57.120 --> 02:49:01.280
Let's call it intuition, but I need something a little bit more

3795
02:49:01.280 --> 02:49:02.160
than that. So you're saying,

3796
02:49:02.160 --> 02:49:07.660
okay, so I'll give you more. So in the system of, so can I

3797
02:49:07.660 --> 02:49:09.920
answer truthfully or defensively,

3798
02:49:09.920 --> 02:49:14.130
which ones do you guys watch? So in the system of Kundalini

3799
02:49:14.130 --> 02:49:16.320
yoga, there are seven chakras.

3800
02:49:16.320 --> 02:49:22.460
So 21 years ago, almost 22, I went to a teacher who taught me

3801
02:49:22.460 --> 02:49:24.720
the first of a Kundalini practice,

3802
02:49:24.720 --> 02:49:27.720
which is based on the Agnet chakra. So the Agnet chakra is your

3803
02:49:27.720 --> 02:49:30.320
third eye chakra and gives you,

3804
02:49:30.320 --> 02:49:35.680
it is the chakra that governs understanding. So if you want to

3805
02:49:35.680 --> 02:49:36.960
understand things,

3806
02:49:38.240 --> 02:49:41.810
then Agnet chakra practices are the right thing to do. So many

3807
02:49:41.810 --> 02:49:42.640
years ago,

3808
02:49:42.640 --> 02:49:47.360
back in a former life, when I was still an academic at Harvard,

3809
02:49:47.360 --> 02:49:48.800
I was trying to develop

3810
02:49:48.800 --> 02:49:52.960
an evidence-based meditation program for different diagnoses.

3811
02:49:52.960 --> 02:49:54.640
And part of what I leaned into,

3812
02:49:54.640 --> 02:49:57.420
and initial results were good, but never really, you know, then

3813
02:49:57.420 --> 02:49:58.160
I started doing this.

3814
02:49:58.160 --> 02:50:01.990
But so as one example, there's this chakra called the mula dhar

3815
02:50:01.990 --> 02:50:02.720
achakra,

3816
02:50:02.720 --> 02:50:05.890
which is our root chakra. So the mula dharachakra governs our

3817
02:50:05.890 --> 02:50:07.360
primal impulses in life.

3818
02:50:08.240 --> 02:50:11.210
So I looked at my patients with addictions and I was like, okay

3819
02:50:11.210 --> 02:50:13.440
, these people have a problem with

3820
02:50:13.440 --> 02:50:15.970
impulse control and they want something and they can't restrain

3821
02:50:15.970 --> 02:50:17.200
themselves from getting it.

3822
02:50:17.200 --> 02:50:21.620
So I wondered, can I teach them mula dharachakra practices to

3823
02:50:21.620 --> 02:50:23.360
sort of basically like

3824
02:50:23.360 --> 02:50:28.310
reduce their flow of wanting the basic things? And I found that

3825
02:50:28.310 --> 02:50:30.800
that was efficacious. Now,

3826
02:50:30.800 --> 02:50:34.560
meditation works for addictions. Then, but the question is, can

3827
02:50:34.560 --> 02:50:36.160
we do a specific meditation

3828
02:50:36.160 --> 02:50:39.680
for a specific mental illness? So there are, there's one study,

3829
02:50:39.680 --> 02:50:40.720
for example, that looks at

3830
02:50:40.720 --> 02:50:43.390
a nahat, their heart chakra meditation specifically for

3831
02:50:43.390 --> 02:50:45.120
depression, because it cultivates like

3832
02:50:45.120 --> 02:50:48.460
compassion and self-love and stuff like that. And they found it

3833
02:50:48.460 --> 02:50:50.640
's a very small study. Hopefully,

3834
02:50:50.640 --> 02:50:53.820
the, the, we'll do more research in this, but they found that

3835
02:50:53.820 --> 02:50:55.520
the effect was superior to other

3836
02:50:55.520 --> 02:51:00.200
forms of meditation. So hypothetically, theoretically, there

3837
02:51:00.200 --> 02:51:02.640
are specific meditation practices,

3838
02:51:02.640 --> 02:51:06.120
which work in different ways. And I teach a lot of the stuff in

3839
02:51:06.120 --> 02:51:07.120
, in the doctor case,

3840
02:51:07.120 --> 02:51:10.290
guided meditation and stuff, but so they're these specific

3841
02:51:10.290 --> 02:51:13.280
practices. So I specifically did a practice

3842
02:51:13.280 --> 02:51:17.650
based on a nahat chakra stuff like intuition, right? So then

3843
02:51:17.650 --> 02:51:19.520
like something weird happens,

3844
02:51:19.520 --> 02:51:23.680
which is when I sit with people, I have intuitions about them.

3845
02:51:23.680 --> 02:51:26.080
Now, is this real, is this fake,

3846
02:51:26.080 --> 02:51:29.500
is it delusional? I don't know. You could argue that I'm just a

3847
02:51:29.500 --> 02:51:31.120
really good psychiatrist with

3848
02:51:31.120 --> 02:51:35.590
really good cold reading, right? But this is a, I don't, so if

3849
02:51:35.590 --> 02:51:37.680
you want to know the real answer,

3850
02:51:37.680 --> 02:51:39.530
like I'm not a great psychiatrist, people think I'm so

3851
02:51:39.530 --> 02:51:41.280
brilliant design. I'm not, I'm cheating.

3852
02:51:41.280 --> 02:51:45.130
I'm using us a layer of information that I don't think most

3853
02:51:45.130 --> 02:51:46.640
people have access to,

3854
02:51:46.640 --> 02:51:52.920
which I know is a completely undefensible claim, except if you

3855
02:51:52.920 --> 02:51:54.880
do a nahat chakra practices too,

3856
02:51:54.880 --> 02:51:58.240
you will see what I'm talking about. Alex, if I were to ask you

3857
02:51:58.240 --> 02:51:59.120
that if someone's listening

3858
02:51:59.120 --> 02:52:02.030
now and they feel lost in their life, is there any advice that

3859
02:52:02.030 --> 02:52:03.040
you could give them

3860
02:52:03.040 --> 02:52:09.070
or a simple action that they could take that would help them to

3861
02:52:09.070 --> 02:52:09.600
find

3862
02:52:09.600 --> 02:52:14.640
to remove the feeling of feeling lost in life?

3863
02:52:14.640 --> 02:52:20.080
It's always difficult because it's such an individual thing

3864
02:52:20.080 --> 02:52:21.280
that it's difficult to give

3865
02:52:22.560 --> 02:52:31.250
advice, writ large, also because I'm no paradigm of meaning and

3866
02:52:31.250 --> 02:52:32.880
purpose in life and not some

3867
02:52:32.880 --> 02:52:36.830
fountain of wisdom from which people can drink. So I wouldn't

3868
02:52:36.830 --> 02:52:39.360
presume to do so, but if a friend,

3869
02:52:39.360 --> 02:52:41.890
so if they came to me as I'm the guy on the camera with the

3870
02:52:41.890 --> 02:52:43.840
microphones and stuff, so what do I do?

3871
02:52:43.840 --> 02:52:46.470
I would say probably the reason a lot of people click this

3872
02:52:46.470 --> 02:52:46.800
video.

3873
02:52:46.800 --> 02:52:49.970
Yeah, I would say that firstly, stop doing that. Don't stop

3874
02:52:49.970 --> 02:52:50.800
clicking the video.

3875
02:52:50.800 --> 02:52:55.920
Everybody is like and subscribe. Stop thinking that you're

3876
02:52:55.920 --> 02:52:56.560
going to find

3877
02:52:56.560 --> 02:53:02.860
some kind of teacher or guru who is going to give you the

3878
02:53:02.860 --> 02:53:04.320
answer. Instead,

3879
02:53:04.320 --> 02:53:07.580
the most valuable form of person to listen to, I think, and I

3880
02:53:07.580 --> 02:53:09.280
found is somebody who's quite clearly

3881
02:53:09.280 --> 02:53:12.560
also trying to do the same thing. There are people out there

3882
02:53:12.560 --> 02:53:13.680
who think they've achieved

3883
02:53:13.680 --> 02:53:15.550
certain things. They've found meaning, they've understood the

3884
02:53:15.550 --> 02:53:16.720
truth, and you can learn a lot from

3885
02:53:16.720 --> 02:53:18.960
them trying to explain their worldview to them. I don't claim

3886
02:53:18.960 --> 02:53:20.160
to be such a person, so the only

3887
02:53:20.160 --> 02:53:22.230
thing I can do is say, "I'm actually doing this at the same

3888
02:53:22.230 --> 02:53:24.640
time as you." I can't give you advice

3889
02:53:24.640 --> 02:53:26.850
from experience. I can't say, "Here's what to do to find

3890
02:53:26.850 --> 02:53:28.960
meaning. Here's what I did." What I can say is,

3891
02:53:28.960 --> 02:53:31.790
"Here are some things that I'm trying. For example, I'm really

3892
02:53:31.790 --> 02:53:33.200
interested by this question of

3893
02:53:33.200 --> 02:53:36.360
consciousness and what it means to say that reality is

3894
02:53:36.360 --> 02:53:38.480
fundamentally mental and that we've made a

3895
02:53:38.480 --> 02:53:42.110
mistake in thinking that complexity produces consciousness and

3896
02:53:42.110 --> 02:53:44.960
rather a complexity allows consciousness

3897
02:53:44.960 --> 02:53:48.360
to do particular things, like memory and emotion and stuff like

3898
02:53:48.360 --> 02:53:50.160
that. That's really exciting,

3899
02:53:50.160 --> 02:53:52.470
and there are some implications of seeing the world in that way

3900
02:53:52.470 --> 02:53:55.680
. Implications about the unity of

3901
02:53:55.680 --> 02:53:57.360
experiences. >> Are you saying pursue answers?

3902
02:53:57.360 --> 02:54:03.970
>> Yes, pursue answers, but also try to experience it. I kind

3903
02:54:03.970 --> 02:54:05.680
of depends who it is, and I don't

3904
02:54:05.680 --> 02:54:08.840
like to say on camera exactly, but psychedelics can be really,

3905
02:54:08.840 --> 02:54:10.640
really useful for a lot of people.

3906
02:54:10.640 --> 02:54:15.800
They can, if you are not in the right mindset as they say, if

3907
02:54:15.800 --> 02:54:17.440
you're a bit disintegrated,

3908
02:54:17.440 --> 02:54:21.360
if the reason I don't like to advise it is because it can bring

3909
02:54:21.360 --> 02:54:22.720
about a very bad experience for a

3910
02:54:22.720 --> 02:54:24.790
lot of people. >> Are you saying within the right set and

3911
02:54:24.790 --> 02:54:25.120
setting?

3912
02:54:25.120 --> 02:54:27.190
>> Something like that might be what I'd recommend. It depends

3913
02:54:27.190 --> 02:54:28.080
who I'm talking to, but there are

3914
02:54:28.080 --> 02:54:31.320
friends in my life, for example, who I would say don't take

3915
02:54:31.320 --> 02:54:34.480
psychedelics. From my experience,

3916
02:54:34.480 --> 02:54:36.410
I just don't think it seems like the right thing to do, but

3917
02:54:36.410 --> 02:54:37.840
there are other friends who I would say,

3918
02:54:37.840 --> 02:54:40.800
if you did, in the right circumstance, I think this could blow

3919
02:54:40.800 --> 02:54:41.280
open.

3920
02:54:41.280 --> 02:54:44.490
>> Would you come across yourself as being lost and direction

3921
02:54:44.490 --> 02:54:44.960
less?

3922
02:54:44.960 --> 02:54:48.880
>> To some degree, of course, yeah, to some degree, everybody

3923
02:54:48.880 --> 02:54:52.640
is. Lost is quite a heavy word.

3924
02:54:52.640 --> 02:54:55.520
When people say I'm lost, by volunteering that information,

3925
02:54:55.520 --> 02:54:58.160
they tend to be implying that

3926
02:54:58.160 --> 02:55:01.330
it's a strong enough feeling that they're troubled by it and

3927
02:55:01.330 --> 02:55:02.800
want to make it that happy.

3928
02:55:02.800 --> 02:55:05.970
That's why people say it, but when you ask, well, there are

3929
02:55:05.970 --> 02:55:06.960
different questions here, right?

3930
02:55:06.960 --> 02:55:10.240
>> Yeah, I might be happy right now. >> Sure.

3931
02:55:10.240 --> 02:55:13.840
>> Tomorrow you can continue your life. >> If you had to rate

3932
02:55:13.840 --> 02:55:13.920
your

3933
02:55:13.920 --> 02:55:16.880
contentment in life out of 10, I'll do the same. It's not a

3934
02:55:16.880 --> 02:55:18.720
very easy thing to quantify.

3935
02:55:18.720 --> 02:55:24.160
>> But I asked 100s of people, 400 people this question.

3936
02:55:24.160 --> 02:55:25.760
Everyone in the podcast has been

3937
02:55:25.760 --> 02:55:28.640
asked Dr. Kay this question. >> And they'll just finish this

3938
02:55:28.640 --> 02:55:29.040
train of thought.

3939
02:55:29.040 --> 02:55:32.960
>> I'll just say to you, for example, I'm like a five out of 10

3940
02:55:32.960 --> 02:55:33.680
contentment.

3941
02:55:33.680 --> 02:55:34.560
>> Is that true?

3942
02:55:35.440 --> 02:55:37.810
Like maybe, yeah. >> Let's just, I'll give you a simple way to

3943
02:55:37.810 --> 02:55:39.440
quantify, I literally can't

3944
02:55:39.440 --> 02:55:41.360
quantify. >> I'll give you a way to quantify.

3945
02:55:41.360 --> 02:55:43.840
>> Give you the yardstick. So, you think about how old are you?

3946
02:55:43.840 --> 02:55:46.080
>> 26. >> 26, so you think about those 26 years.

3947
02:55:46.080 --> 02:55:51.920
Has there been months of your life where consistently you've

3948
02:55:51.920 --> 02:55:54.080
felt really fulfilled

3949
02:55:54.080 --> 02:55:57.920
and positive for weeks, months in a row?

3950
02:55:57.920 --> 02:56:02.000
>> Um, I'd probably, yeah. I think so.

3951
02:56:02.000 --> 02:56:06.730
It was the last time for a full month, for a full 30 days, you

3952
02:56:06.730 --> 02:56:09.760
felt really good on average.

3953
02:56:09.760 --> 02:56:11.280
>> Out of 10, what counts?

3954
02:56:11.280 --> 02:56:12.400
>> Really good on average.

3955
02:56:12.400 --> 02:56:15.380
>> I don't know, it might have been, usually when I have some

3956
02:56:15.380 --> 02:56:16.480
kind of project.

3957
02:56:16.480 --> 02:56:19.160
As I've said, I think meaning is intimately tied up to having a

3958
02:56:19.160 --> 02:56:19.840
task of fulfilled.

3959
02:56:19.840 --> 02:56:24.080
So, when I've been touring for the purpose of filming podcasts

3960
02:56:24.080 --> 02:56:25.200
and doing talks and stuff,

3961
02:56:25.200 --> 02:56:27.440
I feel pretty content because I wake up and I know what my task

3962
02:56:27.440 --> 02:56:28.560
is for the day and I get it done.

3963
02:56:29.200 --> 02:56:32.100
So, on like a subjective psychological level, those are

3964
02:56:32.100 --> 02:56:33.680
probably the times when I wake up with the

3965
02:56:33.680 --> 02:56:37.120
most, let's say, drive the feeling that I've got a task of

3966
02:56:37.120 --> 02:56:38.160
fulfilling.

3967
02:56:38.160 --> 02:56:40.880
>> Other days when you feel the weeks, sometimes, or months

3968
02:56:40.880 --> 02:56:41.760
where you feel the opposite,

3969
02:56:41.760 --> 02:56:44.200
which we might be characterised in a clinical context as

3970
02:56:44.200 --> 02:56:44.960
depression.

3971
02:56:44.960 --> 02:56:46.160
>> Of course, that's interesting.

3972
02:56:46.160 --> 02:56:50.240
>> Can I ask why you were interested in my, in my answers?

3973
02:56:50.240 --> 02:56:52.560
>> I was trying to see how similar we are.

3974
02:56:52.560 --> 02:56:54.160
>> Uh-huh. >> That's really it because we're both,

3975
02:56:54.160 --> 02:56:58.250
we both sit in the same agnostic camp, but actually we're very,

3976
02:56:58.250 --> 02:56:58.960
very different.

3977
02:57:00.000 --> 02:57:01.890
In terms of our, I wake up in the morning and I work up this

3978
02:57:01.890 --> 02:57:03.600
morning and I'm very happy.

3979
02:57:03.600 --> 02:57:05.280
And I feel very, very driven and I couldn't wait.

3980
02:57:05.280 --> 02:57:07.200
I was actually the night before I couldn't wake up.

3981
02:57:07.200 --> 02:57:09.270
I was annoyed, I had to sleep because I couldn't wait to get up

3982
02:57:09.270 --> 02:57:09.920
in the morning.

3983
02:57:09.920 --> 02:57:11.200
And that's typically my experience.

3984
02:57:11.200 --> 02:57:13.510
I'm like, I can't wait to get the sleep done with because I can

3985
02:57:13.510 --> 02:57:14.720
't wait to get back to life.

3986
02:57:14.720 --> 02:57:16.000
>> So, what's it all for?

3987
02:57:16.000 --> 02:57:18.480
>> I don't really, this sounds crazy.

3988
02:57:18.480 --> 02:57:20.790
And it also somewhat links to what you're saying about, at the

3989
02:57:20.790 --> 02:57:21.520
very beginning,

3990
02:57:21.520 --> 02:57:23.120
about people being really obsessed with not dying.

3991
02:57:23.120 --> 02:57:25.600
I don't really count, I'm a great time.

3992
02:57:26.320 --> 02:57:30.240
And I love having these conversations because I get to learn

3993
02:57:30.240 --> 02:57:31.440
more about different people's

3994
02:57:31.440 --> 02:57:33.800
strategies to having a great time and to making their lives

3995
02:57:33.800 --> 02:57:34.960
more meaningful and more exciting

3996
02:57:34.960 --> 02:57:36.000
on a daily basis.

3997
02:57:36.000 --> 02:57:39.370
>> But does that, that sounds quite nihilistic, in a way,

3998
02:57:39.370 --> 02:57:41.440
because it, you sound like Cohele,

3999
02:57:41.440 --> 02:57:44.330
in the book of Ecclesiastes, who's sort of eating and drinking

4000
02:57:44.330 --> 02:57:45.200
and being married,

4001
02:57:45.200 --> 02:57:48.900
who one day might look at it and realize that although you feel

4002
02:57:48.900 --> 02:57:49.360
in the moment,

4003
02:57:49.360 --> 02:57:51.890
this is all very good, it's all hevel, and realness that there

4004
02:57:51.890 --> 02:57:52.480
needs to be something more.

4005
02:57:52.480 --> 02:57:55.660
And I wonder if the same thing will happen if the, if the North

4006
02:57:55.660 --> 02:57:57.920
Star that you have for your life

4007
02:57:57.920 --> 02:58:00.600
and your projects and your career is that you just sort of feel

4008
02:58:00.600 --> 02:58:02.000
good while you're doing it.

4009
02:58:02.000 --> 02:58:05.600
>> And why isn't that good enough reason?

4010
02:58:05.600 --> 02:58:07.570
Because, because in your presumption that you're saying,

4011
02:58:07.570 --> 02:58:10.160
because someday I might get hit by this

4012
02:58:10.160 --> 02:58:12.160
bus of realizing that it was worth nothing.

4013
02:58:12.160 --> 02:58:16.440
But for the, for the seven years up until I die, I'm going to

4014
02:58:16.440 --> 02:58:17.840
wake up in the morning,

4015
02:58:17.840 --> 02:58:18.800
feel good.

4016
02:58:18.800 --> 02:58:21.520
I'm going to love spending time with my girlfriend and my dog.

4017
02:58:22.480 --> 02:58:24.850
>> And whatever neurochemicals in my brain are going to

4018
02:58:24.850 --> 02:58:30.240
reinforce me to keep doing that. And does it bring meaning?

4019
02:58:30.240 --> 02:58:30.240
>> Yeah.

4020
02:58:30.240 --> 02:58:32.400
>> What does that mean to you?

4021
02:58:32.400 --> 02:58:34.930
>> Because, because, and the reason I ask that is because conce

4022
02:58:34.930 --> 02:58:37.120
ivably, you can imagine someone who's

4023
02:58:37.120 --> 02:58:39.200
happy, but their life isn't meaningful. And you can imagine

4024
02:58:39.200 --> 02:58:40.480
someone who's suffering, but their life

4025
02:58:40.480 --> 02:58:42.590
is meaningful, like a victim of the Holocaust or something,

4026
02:58:42.590 --> 02:58:42.960
right?

4027
02:58:42.960 --> 02:58:44.320
>> I'm hearing this as well.

4028
02:58:44.320 --> 02:58:46.850
>> And so you've got the happiness part, but you also think

4029
02:58:46.850 --> 02:58:48.400
that you've got sort of meaning.

4030
02:58:48.400 --> 02:58:50.830
And what, what, where's the, what is that meaning and where's

4031
02:58:50.830 --> 02:58:51.680
that coming from?

4032
02:58:51.680 --> 02:58:53.610
>> So meaning for me is something that I create by the

4033
02:58:53.610 --> 02:58:55.120
decisions that I take. And this might go

4034
02:58:55.120 --> 02:58:57.250
down to what you were saying about having certain tendencies. I

4035
02:58:57.250 --> 02:58:58.480
have certain tendencies.

4036
02:58:58.480 --> 02:59:01.700
I have nature and nurture acting against me to make certain

4037
02:59:01.700 --> 02:59:03.360
things feel meaningful to me.

4038
02:59:03.360 --> 02:59:08.350
And one of those things is this pursuit of more information. I

4039
02:59:08.350 --> 02:59:11.280
do it when you go. And I get some

4040
02:59:11.280 --> 02:59:15.110
free time tonight. I'll be on YouTube learning about humanoid

4041
02:59:15.110 --> 02:59:15.600
robots.

4042
02:59:15.600 --> 02:59:18.900
Or I might stumble across a video. One of your videos, which I

4043
02:59:18.900 --> 02:59:19.920
've watched many times, and I've

4044
02:59:19.920 --> 02:59:22.170
watched your videos many times, and I've watched your videos

4045
02:59:22.170 --> 02:59:24.000
many times, not because I necessarily

4046
02:59:24.000 --> 02:59:27.500
believe I'm ever going to get to the final answer, because it's

4047
02:59:27.500 --> 02:59:29.840
the, the, the doing itself that

4048
02:59:29.840 --> 02:59:33.550
I find so enjoyable. And actually, I can kind of relate to the

4049
02:59:33.550 --> 02:59:34.880
guy that knows the world's going to

4050
02:59:34.880 --> 02:59:38.050
end, but writes the book. Because it's the, it's the writing of

4051
02:59:38.050 --> 02:59:39.040
the book that I love.

4052
02:59:39.040 --> 02:59:42.060
>> Yeah, so here's what I think is beautiful. So I think if you

4053
02:59:42.060 --> 02:59:43.680
guys go back and you watch this,

4054
02:59:43.680 --> 02:59:47.690
every scientific principle is what Stephen is doing. So self-

4055
02:59:47.690 --> 02:59:49.840
determination theory, right? So he's

4056
02:59:49.840 --> 02:59:53.830
self-directed. He stretches his capacities. He relates to other

4057
02:59:53.830 --> 02:59:55.440
people. And I think this is, it's,

4058
02:59:55.440 --> 02:59:59.140
it's a really brilliant example of sort of like this problem of

4059
02:59:59.140 --> 03:00:00.560
finding like meaning with a

4060
03:00:00.560 --> 03:00:04.200
capital M and relates to this kind of idea of, you know, if you

4061
03:00:04.200 --> 03:00:06.400
're feeling directionless in life,

4062
03:00:06.400 --> 03:00:10.950
I don't know that you need to figure out with a capital M. And

4063
03:00:10.950 --> 03:00:11.920
if we listen to some of your

4064
03:00:11.920 --> 03:00:14.350
questions, right, is it enough for you? And then Stephen's like

4065
03:00:14.350 --> 03:00:15.600
, why wouldn't like, you know,

4066
03:00:15.600 --> 03:00:18.330
why do you assume that you need sort of this very natural like

4067
03:00:18.330 --> 03:00:19.600
reaction? And then he's kind of

4068
03:00:19.600 --> 03:00:22.340
like, no, I'm actually pretty content. And I think that my

4069
03:00:22.340 --> 03:00:24.320
favorite thing about your answer is that

4070
03:00:24.320 --> 03:00:27.220
getting as far as you have, I think you've got your instinctual

4071
03:00:27.220 --> 03:00:29.040
answer of five out of 10 is still

4072
03:00:29.040 --> 03:00:33.590
correct. Because this is as far as you go. And I think you feel

4073
03:00:33.590 --> 03:00:36.400
this hunger for like something else.

4074
03:00:36.400 --> 03:00:39.620
And that thing is going to be big, right? And I think that's,

4075
03:00:39.620 --> 03:00:41.440
that's what maybe Greg can help us

4076
03:00:41.440 --> 03:00:44.460
out with, right? Because I mean, I think that's, it's, it's, it

4077
03:00:44.460 --> 03:00:46.000
's a beautiful way of embodying,

4078
03:00:46.000 --> 03:00:48.420
I think how we find meaning in life. There's a bunch of

4079
03:00:48.420 --> 03:00:50.640
psychological stuff that you can do,

4080
03:00:50.640 --> 03:00:54.100
but it appears that doing some of this weird transcendental,

4081
03:00:54.100 --> 03:00:55.520
like, you got to like find it

4082
03:00:55.520 --> 03:00:58.960
and sort of this big way. And I think you're a perfect

4083
03:00:58.960 --> 03:01:02.000
embodiment of how far you can go.

4084
03:01:02.000 --> 03:01:04.730
Let me offer clarification based on the question you're asking

4085
03:01:04.730 --> 03:01:06.240
Alex, because I feel in many ways,

4086
03:01:06.240 --> 03:01:10.610
very sympathetic to Alex, as he described his subjective states

4087
03:01:10.610 --> 03:01:12.800
, you know, are you happy,

4088
03:01:12.800 --> 03:01:15.190
are you fulfilled? Do you have meaning in your life? And I

4089
03:01:15.190 --> 03:01:17.120
guess, and I think the tendency sometimes

4090
03:01:17.120 --> 03:01:19.720
is to talk to somebody who is very confident of their

4091
03:01:19.720 --> 03:01:21.520
understanding of the big picture.

4092
03:01:21.520 --> 03:01:26.180
And think that everything's going wonderful for them. You know,

4093
03:01:26.180 --> 03:01:26.880
you look at their life,

4094
03:01:26.880 --> 03:01:29.730
say, well, everything's just great. Are you happy? I'm happy

4095
03:01:29.730 --> 03:01:31.280
all the time. I have the truth,

4096
03:01:31.280 --> 03:01:34.600
kind of thing, but that's not exactly how it works. I'm fully

4097
03:01:34.600 --> 03:01:37.280
convinced of the truth of the

4098
03:01:37.280 --> 03:01:40.450
Christian worldview of God's existence, Jesus, all the things

4099
03:01:40.450 --> 03:01:42.000
that relate to that human beings made

4100
03:01:42.000 --> 03:01:45.190
the image of God. I think it's the best explanation. All things

4101
03:01:45.190 --> 03:01:47.440
considered for the way things are.

4102
03:01:47.440 --> 03:01:51.140
Nevertheless, I'm still a fallen human being learning to be

4103
03:01:51.140 --> 03:01:53.600
virtuous with God's help. I am still

4104
03:01:53.600 --> 03:01:57.240
living in a world that is fallen and broken. And I have to live

4105
03:01:57.240 --> 03:01:58.960
with all the contingencies

4106
03:01:58.960 --> 03:02:01.990
of a fallen world. So if you were to ask me the question that

4107
03:02:01.990 --> 03:02:03.600
you asked Alex, I would have the

4108
03:02:03.600 --> 03:02:07.310
same difficulty answering that Alex did because it's so varieg

4109
03:02:07.310 --> 03:02:09.280
ated one's life. When I wake up in the

4110
03:02:09.280 --> 03:02:12.920
morning, do you feel good? Sometimes, sometimes not. Am I

4111
03:02:12.920 --> 03:02:15.520
confident that no matter what happens in my

4112
03:02:15.520 --> 03:02:18.690
life, the good, the bad, whatever, that there is a foundation

4113
03:02:18.690 --> 03:02:20.560
there that gives me stability? Yes,

4114
03:02:20.560 --> 03:02:24.650
because I think that foundation, God, eternal mind exists. And

4115
03:02:24.650 --> 03:02:26.800
I'm in proper relationship with him.

4116
03:02:26.800 --> 03:02:31.070
But part of the reality is this is a veil of tears. You know, I

4117
03:02:31.070 --> 03:02:32.560
hired a Joe, Joe put it something

4118
03:02:32.560 --> 03:02:36.040
about the about the sparks flying upward. You know, it's like

4119
03:02:36.040 --> 03:02:38.480
life is difficult. Actually, I like

4120
03:02:38.480 --> 03:02:42.260
the saying life is hard. And then you die, you know, it gives

4121
03:02:42.260 --> 03:02:43.920
me a perspective on things.

4122
03:02:43.920 --> 03:02:47.090
Jesus himself said, in this world, you'll have tribulation,

4123
03:02:47.090 --> 03:02:49.280
that's the experience. But the underlying

4124
03:02:49.280 --> 03:02:52.670
is be of good cheer, Jesus said, because I have overcome the

4125
03:02:52.670 --> 03:02:53.840
world. Are you happy?

4126
03:02:53.840 --> 03:02:57.760
We're back to that question again, how you characterize it.

4127
03:02:57.760 --> 03:03:00.450
You said earlier on that you felt there was a certain path that

4128
03:03:00.450 --> 03:03:02.000
Alex was going to go down,

4129
03:03:02.000 --> 03:03:06.160
but Greg did not gonna go, gonna, gonna go down. Should, or

4130
03:03:06.160 --> 03:03:07.680
something. It's ready for him.

4131
03:03:07.680 --> 03:03:10.120
Okay, it's ready for him. I mean, he didn't say that about Greg

4132
03:03:10.120 --> 03:03:10.960
. Yeah.

4133
03:03:10.960 --> 03:03:13.320
And so when you look at these two individuals, and you think

4134
03:03:13.320 --> 03:03:14.560
about contentment and happiness,

4135
03:03:14.560 --> 03:03:20.020
and whatever that word it, what is, can you, can you feel your

4136
03:03:20.020 --> 03:03:21.200
intuition? That's sort of.

4137
03:03:21.200 --> 03:03:23.910
So first thing is, this is what I know, it's kind of saying,

4138
03:03:23.910 --> 03:03:26.000
like I'm tanking my brand right now,

4139
03:03:26.000 --> 03:03:31.840
because I used to be believable, I guess. But, um, so first

4140
03:03:31.840 --> 03:03:32.960
thing about intuition,

4141
03:03:32.960 --> 03:03:36.240
right, if we look at intuition technically, I can't activate it

4142
03:03:36.240 --> 03:03:36.560
.

4143
03:03:37.120 --> 03:03:40.330
Right. When you have an intuition, it comes, it happens. So

4144
03:03:40.330 --> 03:03:42.640
that's what's so frustrating about this,

4145
03:03:42.640 --> 03:03:45.520
is everyone thinks like, okay, if you do a nichakrasatana,

4146
03:03:45.520 --> 03:03:47.040
which is a weird,

4147
03:03:47.040 --> 03:03:49.840
third eye stuff, then you can do this thing. I can't do

4148
03:03:49.840 --> 03:03:52.720
anything. I am before God, and when God

4149
03:03:52.720 --> 03:03:57.000
chooses to let me know something, that's when I get it. Now, if

4150
03:03:57.000 --> 03:03:58.640
I had to answer,

4151
03:03:58.640 --> 03:04:02.840
I think I am not surprised about the difference in baseline

4152
03:04:02.840 --> 03:04:06.160
contentment between these two people,

4153
03:04:06.160 --> 03:04:10.090
right? So if you were to ask, why do I relate to Greg in this

4154
03:04:10.090 --> 03:04:13.600
way? Now, whether this is at a conscious

4155
03:04:13.600 --> 03:04:17.260
level, neurological level, whether those, whether there's truly

4156
03:04:17.260 --> 03:04:18.720
a spiritual level or not,

4157
03:04:18.720 --> 03:04:22.590
right? So am I just reading into him, doing pattern recognition

4158
03:04:22.590 --> 03:04:23.920
based on what he says and stuff like

4159
03:04:23.920 --> 03:04:27.400
that? But that's not what my lived experience of it is. I know

4160
03:04:27.400 --> 03:04:28.720
this man has seen God.

4161
03:04:28.720 --> 03:04:32.420
And it's, it's not, is it his behavior, his body language, his,

4162
03:04:32.420 --> 03:04:33.600
no, I mean, I don't think so.

4163
03:04:34.240 --> 03:04:37.060
Right? So so I've met some people who have very unhappy lives

4164
03:04:37.060 --> 03:04:38.560
who still have that foundation of

4165
03:04:38.560 --> 03:04:44.010
spiritual contentment and some people who have very unhappy,

4166
03:04:44.010 --> 03:04:46.800
can have unhappy life with spiritual

4167
03:04:46.800 --> 03:04:51.080
contentment or spiritual contentment with a happy life, or be

4168
03:04:51.080 --> 03:04:53.040
have a great life and have no

4169
03:04:53.040 --> 03:04:55.400
spiritual contentment. I think all of those variables. What

4170
03:04:55.400 --> 03:04:58.560
about me? Yeah. What's your intuition

4171
03:04:58.560 --> 03:05:02.760
about me? I think you're getting their way faster. You've

4172
03:05:02.760 --> 03:05:04.160
changed in the last time I talk.

4173
03:05:05.200 --> 03:05:08.230
I think you're getting there. And I think you're going to get

4174
03:05:08.230 --> 03:05:10.160
there. Oh, thank God.

4175
03:05:10.160 --> 03:05:14.710
Are we going to go there being contentment there being what

4176
03:05:14.710 --> 03:05:18.000
there? So, so this is this, there is,

4177
03:05:18.000 --> 03:05:20.740
it's not something that can be put into words. I'm just going

4178
03:05:20.740 --> 03:05:21.680
to call it there.

4179
03:05:21.680 --> 03:05:24.500
If someone's listening right now and they feel stuck in their

4180
03:05:24.500 --> 03:05:26.240
life, which is where I asked Alex,

4181
03:05:26.240 --> 03:05:29.080
what is something that they can do tomorrow, a small step that

4182
03:05:29.080 --> 03:05:30.560
they can take to become unsnuck

4183
03:05:30.560 --> 03:05:34.000
in your love? Yeah. So, I would start by sort of, you know,

4184
03:05:34.000 --> 03:05:36.400
Alex offered a beautiful answer. And I

4185
03:05:36.400 --> 03:05:39.760
think he kind of mentioned that I wouldn't be airing it enough

4186
03:05:39.760 --> 03:05:41.360
to give people things because

4187
03:05:41.360 --> 03:05:43.270
they're, you know, give people an answer because everyone's an

4188
03:05:43.270 --> 03:05:44.320
individual and stuff like that.

4189
03:05:44.320 --> 03:05:49.540
So, the funny thing is I have a super concrete answer. I think

4190
03:05:49.540 --> 03:05:50.960
the difference in sort of the way

4191
03:05:50.960 --> 03:05:53.560
that I perceive it is I don't think you have to be someone

4192
03:05:53.560 --> 03:05:55.520
great to do that. And that's, I think

4193
03:05:55.520 --> 03:05:58.420
precisely what sort of science tells us, right? Like is that

4194
03:05:58.420 --> 03:06:00.400
you don't have to be some enlightened

4195
03:06:00.400 --> 03:06:02.650
being and I don't claim to be that. I'm not a guru or anything

4196
03:06:02.650 --> 03:06:05.280
like that. You know, so I think it starts with

4197
03:06:05.280 --> 03:06:08.720
understanding first and foremost that purpose,

4198
03:06:08.720 --> 03:06:13.320
how do you know whether you have purpose? Something within you

4199
03:06:13.320 --> 03:06:15.120
tells you, right? You can have

4200
03:06:15.120 --> 03:06:17.670
everyone in the rest of the world telling you, oh, you're doing

4201
03:06:17.670 --> 03:06:19.120
great. You're going to get married in a

4202
03:06:19.120 --> 03:06:21.480
month. You know, there's a baby on the way. You have a career.

4203
03:06:21.480 --> 03:06:23.200
You have all this stuff. You should

4204
03:06:23.200 --> 03:06:25.850
feel fulfilled. So, the first thing to understand is it is an

4205
03:06:25.850 --> 03:06:27.040
internal feeling. And then the

4206
03:06:27.040 --> 03:06:30.810
question becomes, how do we create, how do we find that feeling

4207
03:06:30.810 --> 03:06:32.880
? So, this is where things that get

4208
03:06:32.880 --> 03:06:36.060
in the way at the top of the list right now, which Alex alluded

4209
03:06:36.060 --> 03:06:40.000
to, is technology. So, unless you can

4210
03:06:40.000 --> 03:06:43.840
feel what is going on inside you, you will never feel purpose.

4211
03:06:43.840 --> 03:06:46.320
What are the things that get in the way

4212
03:06:46.320 --> 03:06:49.220
of feeling? So, when you feel bad, what do you reach for? Right

4213
03:06:49.220 --> 03:06:50.880
? How do you manage those negative

4214
03:06:50.880 --> 03:06:53.580
feelings? And it's not about making the feelings go away or not

4215
03:06:53.580 --> 03:06:55.120
making them go away. It is simply

4216
03:06:55.120 --> 03:06:59.520
about stopping the process of severing yourself. That process

4217
03:06:59.520 --> 03:07:02.160
is, I think, Alexa Thyme is what I

4218
03:07:02.160 --> 03:07:04.760
kind of refer to it as. That's colorblindness of your internal

4219
03:07:04.760 --> 03:07:06.480
emotional state. Like, I have a whole

4220
03:07:06.480 --> 03:07:09.320
lecture about it. You know, so first thing you have to do is

4221
03:07:09.320 --> 03:07:11.520
learn how to feel again. Because if you

4222
03:07:11.520 --> 03:07:14.420
look at most people who are meat, oh, whose life has no meaning

4223
03:07:14.420 --> 03:07:16.080
, what they're actually doing is

4224
03:07:16.080 --> 03:07:19.920
trying to create a life that is running away from bad feelings.

4225
03:07:19.920 --> 03:07:21.120
So, I don't like the way I,

4226
03:07:21.120 --> 03:07:23.190
my boss yelled at me. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm

4227
03:07:23.190 --> 03:07:24.480
going to pull out Reddit. I'm going to

4228
03:07:24.480 --> 03:07:27.030
scroll on at whatever. Right? They're running away from the way

4229
03:07:27.030 --> 03:07:28.240
that they feel. And it's not about

4230
03:07:28.240 --> 03:07:30.320
good or bad. It's just you have to reconnect with yourself.

4231
03:07:30.320 --> 03:07:33.920
Second thing is focus on your ego. And

4232
03:07:33.920 --> 03:07:37.460
as best as possible, probably for most people dissolving parts

4233
03:07:37.460 --> 03:07:39.680
of your ego. And ego is,

4234
03:07:39.680 --> 03:07:43.600
anytime you say, I am dot dot dot. It is what's that dot dot.

4235
03:07:43.600 --> 03:07:46.000
So, if I say I'm a doctor, that's part of my

4236
03:07:46.000 --> 03:07:50.160
ego. I'm a man. That's part of my ego. So, a lot of times what

4237
03:07:50.160 --> 03:07:52.160
gets in the way of us finding purpose

4238
03:07:52.160 --> 03:07:56.250
is what we believe we are. Right. So, I may think to myself, I

4239
03:07:56.250 --> 03:07:59.600
am a doctor. I am this or I'm a loser.

4240
03:07:59.600 --> 03:08:03.090
I'm an incel. Right. So, it's all of these identifications that

4241
03:08:03.090 --> 03:08:04.560
get us away from purpose.

4242
03:08:04.560 --> 03:08:09.590
Third thing to do is find your narrative sense of identity. So,

4243
03:08:09.590 --> 03:08:10.320
there's some ego,

4244
03:08:10.320 --> 03:08:12.890
dissolution, practices like junior meditation and stuff. And

4245
03:08:12.890 --> 03:08:14.240
then third thing is we want to

4246
03:08:14.240 --> 03:08:18.030
develop a story for ourselves. This is when people have purpose

4247
03:08:18.030 --> 03:08:19.440
in life. What is that

4248
03:08:19.440 --> 03:08:22.610
presumed? That presumes that there's a temporal quality, that

4249
03:08:22.610 --> 03:08:23.840
there's a directional quality. Does

4250
03:08:23.840 --> 03:08:26.490
that make sense? Like purpose or direction is like literally

4251
03:08:26.490 --> 03:08:28.240
moving from A to Z. So, there's time

4252
03:08:28.240 --> 03:08:32.230
and then there's like a particular distance. That involves

4253
03:08:32.230 --> 03:08:34.320
going through the most important

4254
03:08:34.320 --> 03:08:38.130
emotional experiences of your life and stringing them together

4255
03:08:38.130 --> 03:08:39.760
is a sense of who you are.

4256
03:08:39.760 --> 03:08:44.860
And then I think the last most important step is recognizing

4257
03:08:44.860 --> 03:08:47.360
that everything that has happened to you.

4258
03:08:48.880 --> 03:08:50.590
Well, I don't know if it's karma. I don't know if it's the will

4259
03:08:50.590 --> 03:08:52.320
of God. Whatever. It has happened to you.

4260
03:08:52.320 --> 03:08:55.250
It's made you in this way. But it does not determine your

4261
03:08:55.250 --> 03:08:58.320
future. Your future is determined by how

4262
03:08:58.320 --> 03:09:01.700
you act in the now. And this is where I would lean into, I

4263
03:09:01.700 --> 03:09:03.680
would just go back and listen to the

4264
03:09:03.680 --> 03:09:07.470
way that Steven talks about his life and try to do the same

4265
03:09:07.470 --> 03:09:09.920
thing. So, try to decide what you're

4266
03:09:09.920 --> 03:09:12.690
make a choice for today, stretch your capacity and try to

4267
03:09:12.690 --> 03:09:16.160
connect with another person. The last thing

4268
03:09:16.880 --> 03:09:20.750
is if all of that stuff doesn't isn't sufficient or you want

4269
03:09:20.750 --> 03:09:23.760
more, I would say engage in some kind of

4270
03:09:23.760 --> 03:09:29.120
spiritual practice or go to church. Both work equally. I don't

4271
03:09:29.120 --> 03:09:30.960
know about equally well,

4272
03:09:30.960 --> 03:09:32.860
but I think they're both options. So, do the thing that appeals

4273
03:09:32.860 --> 03:09:33.360
to you more.

4274
03:09:33.360 --> 03:09:36.560
And the same question for you, Greg, for someone that's stuck.

4275
03:09:36.560 --> 03:09:38.160
What do they do tomorrow to take

4276
03:09:38.160 --> 03:09:42.690
an action to become unstuck in your view? Well, there's a lot

4277
03:09:42.690 --> 03:09:44.800
of practical things that have

4278
03:09:44.800 --> 03:09:48.200
already been shared that I think are helpful. So, I have a very

4279
03:09:48.200 --> 03:09:51.920
simple suggestion. I have

4280
03:09:51.920 --> 03:09:56.870
represented a particular view of the Christian worldview. Didn

4281
03:09:56.870 --> 03:09:58.800
't get into a lot of detail.

4282
03:09:58.800 --> 03:10:02.960
But a lot of people have prayed a very simple prayer that has

4283
03:10:02.960 --> 03:10:04.800
helped them at whatever junction

4284
03:10:04.800 --> 03:10:07.530
they're at trying to figure things out. This kind of goes to a

4285
03:10:07.530 --> 03:10:08.960
point that Alex made earlier.

4286
03:10:09.840 --> 03:10:13.540
And it was a prayer that turns out I prayed in 1973. I was in

4287
03:10:13.540 --> 03:10:14.800
the army and I was in the

4288
03:10:14.800 --> 03:10:17.750
middle of nowhere and I just prayed this prayer. And the prayer

4289
03:10:17.750 --> 03:10:20.400
was very simple. God, if you're real,

4290
03:10:20.400 --> 03:10:23.650
in the way that my brother, the Christian was explaining to me,

4291
03:10:23.650 --> 03:10:26.720
if you're real, I want to know it.

4292
03:10:26.720 --> 03:10:30.110
Show yourself to me. That was it. There was no coconuts falling

4293
03:10:30.110 --> 03:10:30.880
from the tree,

4294
03:10:30.880 --> 03:10:34.760
no lightning or anything like that. It was just a man praying.

4295
03:10:34.760 --> 03:10:36.320
Maybe the first real prayer that

4296
03:10:36.320 --> 03:10:40.480
had ever prayed. But I do know that after that, things became

4297
03:10:40.480 --> 03:10:43.680
more obvious to me. It's the best way I

4298
03:10:43.680 --> 03:10:46.390
can explain it. Though I'm a Christian apologist, I make the

4299
03:10:46.390 --> 03:10:48.000
case for the truth of Christianity.

4300
03:10:48.000 --> 03:10:53.010
It wasn't any particular argument that persuaded me. It was

4301
03:10:53.010 --> 03:10:54.720
more the experiential thing and not

4302
03:10:54.720 --> 03:10:58.320
even a pizzazz thing, just a deep awareness that this was true.

4303
03:10:58.320 --> 03:11:00.000
And this is something I course

4304
03:11:00.000 --> 03:11:03.440
since then. There are a lot of people who prayed that simple

4305
03:11:03.440 --> 03:11:05.280
prayer. It's a genuine prayer that

4306
03:11:05.280 --> 03:11:08.440
people can pray. And I've heard many people tell me that this

4307
03:11:08.440 --> 03:11:09.680
is what happened to them,

4308
03:11:09.680 --> 03:11:12.580
even apart from my suggestion to it. So if people are looking

4309
03:11:12.580 --> 03:11:14.000
for ultimate purpose in their life,

4310
03:11:14.000 --> 03:11:16.930
they're looking for to do meaningful things, lots of

4311
03:11:16.930 --> 03:11:19.120
suggestions on the table. If they're

4312
03:11:19.120 --> 03:11:22.060
looking to integrate meaningful things into the ultimate

4313
03:11:22.060 --> 03:11:24.000
purpose, I think that's the prayer they

4314
03:11:24.000 --> 03:11:28.000
need to pray. I want to give you an opportunity on it to to

4315
03:11:28.000 --> 03:11:30.640
give us deliver your sort of closing

4316
03:11:30.640 --> 03:11:39.190
thoughts and reflections and arguments. Well, I want to re-em

4317
03:11:39.190 --> 03:11:40.720
phasize that

4318
03:11:40.720 --> 03:11:45.720
this topic of meaning and purpose is difficult to even define,

4319
03:11:45.720 --> 03:11:47.520
let alone communicate to another

4320
03:11:47.520 --> 03:11:50.880
person. I think it's individual. Even if there is an objective

4321
03:11:50.880 --> 03:11:52.560
meaning, even if God exists in

4322
03:11:52.560 --> 03:11:55.280
Christianity is true, it's not going to be enough to just tell

4323
03:11:55.280 --> 03:11:56.720
somebody about Christianity,

4324
03:11:56.720 --> 03:11:59.540
they're going to have to live it. So it's not going to be

4325
03:11:59.540 --> 03:12:01.840
enough to just sit around reading. I also

4326
03:12:01.840 --> 03:12:05.210
understand the sort of allergic reactions some people have to

4327
03:12:05.210 --> 03:12:07.760
philosophy. And you ended it earlier,

4328
03:12:07.760 --> 03:12:11.920
this idea that philosophy is just mind game literally

4329
03:12:11.920 --> 03:12:15.680
philosophical like mass debating if you like,

4330
03:12:15.680 --> 03:12:18.460
you know, we just literally sat like throwing concepts at each

4331
03:12:18.460 --> 03:12:20.480
other. But on meaning and purpose,

4332
03:12:20.480 --> 03:12:25.510
you're unlikely to find the best advice from someone who's

4333
03:12:25.510 --> 03:12:26.560
never gotten out of that arm

4334
03:12:26.560 --> 03:12:29.350
chair. And even the person who has and claims who have

4335
03:12:29.350 --> 03:12:31.920
experienced it for themselves and those

4336
03:12:31.920 --> 03:12:34.650
what the truth is, I think anybody who says to you with the

4337
03:12:34.650 --> 03:12:36.400
straight face, I know what the meaning

4338
03:12:36.400 --> 03:12:40.180
in life is, is either lying or will instantly tell you that

4339
03:12:40.180 --> 03:12:42.880
they're not going to be able to convey

4340
03:12:42.880 --> 03:12:45.410
that information at least not very easily. So it's going to be

4341
03:12:45.410 --> 03:12:46.800
difficult and don't trust anyone

4342
03:12:46.800 --> 03:12:49.720
who says you can do it in five easy steps on a podcast or

4343
03:12:49.720 --> 03:12:51.600
something because I think we've got a bit

4344
03:12:51.600 --> 03:12:55.760
of an endemic of that at the moment, people sort of just saying

4345
03:12:55.760 --> 03:12:58.160
that they've sort of discovered this

4346
03:12:58.160 --> 03:13:00.690
path or this truth. And if only people would understand that

4347
03:13:00.690 --> 03:13:02.320
the Stoics were right all along, even

4348
03:13:02.320 --> 03:13:05.270
though I don't care about any of their philosophical views,

4349
03:13:05.270 --> 03:13:06.960
just their ethical views. I don't

4350
03:13:06.960 --> 03:13:08.910
even know what they thought about the nature of matter and

4351
03:13:08.910 --> 03:13:10.320
stuff. It doesn't matter that that's

4352
03:13:10.320 --> 03:13:13.910
why they thought the way that they did ethically, you know,

4353
03:13:13.910 --> 03:13:15.600
just become a stoic and everything

4354
03:13:15.600 --> 03:13:18.170
will get better. But I do recognize some of that and people

4355
03:13:18.170 --> 03:13:20.480
saying, do but just become a Christian

4356
03:13:20.480 --> 03:13:23.650
and it will get better too. It's always going to be a bit more

4357
03:13:23.650 --> 03:13:25.280
nuanced than that, too.

4358
03:13:25.280 --> 03:13:27.360
Dr. Keil, you're closing thoughts and arguments on this today's

4359
03:13:27.360 --> 03:13:27.920
discussion?

4360
03:13:27.920 --> 03:13:31.270
You know, to kind of push back a little bit against what Alex

4361
03:13:31.270 --> 03:13:34.640
said, so I'm with you that there's

4362
03:13:34.640 --> 03:13:39.740
an endemic of five easy tips. And you know, as someone who is

4363
03:13:39.740 --> 03:13:41.520
guilty of doing that,

4364
03:13:41.520 --> 03:13:44.680
and what I'll do is I'll see especially, so I saw a recent

4365
03:13:44.680 --> 03:13:47.040
study that showed that 95% of

4366
03:13:47.040 --> 03:13:51.590
TikToks about ADHD are incorrect. And so there's absolutely an

4367
03:13:51.590 --> 03:13:53.920
oversimplification that's going on.

4368
03:13:53.920 --> 03:14:00.960
I think at the same time, though, we have such an amazing

4369
03:14:00.960 --> 03:14:04.640
amount of knowledge as human beings.

4370
03:14:04.640 --> 03:14:09.740
We have such amazing access to knowledge that human beings have

4371
03:14:09.740 --> 03:14:11.600
. So the human race has so much

4372
03:14:11.600 --> 03:14:14.590
knowledge and we have the greatest amount of access to it. And

4373
03:14:14.590 --> 03:14:16.400
so while I don't think it is like

4374
03:14:16.400 --> 03:14:20.920
as simple as, one of the most shocking things as a psychiatrist

4375
03:14:20.920 --> 03:14:22.400
, you know, who works with people is

4376
03:14:22.400 --> 03:14:27.360
how little it takes to make a big change. Big questions and big

4377
03:14:27.360 --> 03:14:29.520
changes don't always need big

4378
03:14:29.520 --> 03:14:32.690
effort or big answers. It's such an interesting thing. Like,

4379
03:14:32.690 --> 03:14:34.400
you know, when I talk to people who

4380
03:14:34.400 --> 03:14:38.050
struggle with addiction for 14 years, it seems to be a small

4381
03:14:38.050 --> 03:14:39.440
thing that just clicks.

4382
03:14:40.800 --> 03:14:45.590
And so I think the key thing for people is don't assume that

4383
03:14:45.590 --> 03:14:49.440
just because you have a big problem,

4384
03:14:49.440 --> 03:14:55.280
it requires a lot of effort. And you know, I remember my

4385
03:14:55.280 --> 03:14:57.760
daughter was trying to close a box,

4386
03:14:57.760 --> 03:15:00.930
right? So there's like a box and she's trying to slam the lid,

4387
03:15:00.930 --> 03:15:02.080
but the lid is not like

4388
03:15:02.080 --> 03:15:04.260
oriented correctly. Does that make sense? So it kind of gets

4389
03:15:04.260 --> 03:15:06.000
tilted. And then no matter how hard she

4390
03:15:06.000 --> 03:15:09.850
pushes, it doesn't close. And so in her mind, this is a problem

4391
03:15:09.850 --> 03:15:11.520
that requires pounds and pounds.

4392
03:15:11.520 --> 03:15:14.350
I need to be a full grown adult. No, you're just not doing it

4393
03:15:14.350 --> 03:15:16.480
in the right way, right? If you

4394
03:15:16.480 --> 03:15:19.010
understand a little bit how it works, if you sort of orient

4395
03:15:19.010 --> 03:15:19.760
yourself properly.

4396
03:15:19.760 --> 03:15:23.600
And I do think that I've seen time and time again, you know,

4397
03:15:23.600 --> 03:15:25.440
that in terms of an individual

4398
03:15:25.440 --> 03:15:29.240
perspective, if you feel purposelessness, there's a reason for

4399
03:15:29.240 --> 03:15:30.960
that, right? We know that there's

4400
03:15:30.960 --> 03:15:34.380
systemic factors. People are going to church less. People are

4401
03:15:34.380 --> 03:15:35.840
using technology more

4402
03:15:35.840 --> 03:15:41.200
all of the way that the world has, has been changed affects you

4403
03:15:41.200 --> 03:15:43.440
once it crosses the barrier. The world is

4404
03:15:43.440 --> 03:15:46.730
out there and then it crosses the barrier into us and then

4405
03:15:46.730 --> 03:15:50.560
affects us. And that if you understand

4406
03:15:50.560 --> 03:15:53.730
that process and if you change a couple of things and sometimes

4407
03:15:53.730 --> 03:15:55.680
it's amazing how small they are,

4408
03:15:55.680 --> 03:15:59.040
right? Like just waking up and making a decision for yourself,

4409
03:15:59.040 --> 03:16:01.760
pushing yourself a little bit more

4410
03:16:02.640 --> 03:16:05.190
relatedness is the hard one because that requires another human

4411
03:16:05.190 --> 03:16:07.520
being. But like it's amazing how

4412
03:16:07.520 --> 03:16:11.590
much you can do with very little. Thank you. I'm Craig. It's a

4413
03:16:11.590 --> 03:16:12.800
close-off. You're closing thoughts

4414
03:16:12.800 --> 03:16:16.020
and I thought I'd just given them a few moments ago. But I

4415
03:16:16.020 --> 03:16:18.880
guess the distinction that I guess

4416
03:16:18.880 --> 03:16:21.550
I want to emphasize is when it comes to purpose and meaning, I

4417
03:16:21.550 --> 03:16:22.720
think actually meaning

4418
03:16:22.720 --> 03:16:28.240
proceeds purpose. You have to know who you are and why you're

4419
03:16:28.240 --> 03:16:30.320
here if you're here for any reason

4420
03:16:30.320 --> 03:16:34.480
before the purpose matches. It turns out that there is no big

4421
03:16:34.480 --> 03:16:36.400
picture. It's just you and the

4422
03:16:36.400 --> 03:16:39.010
purpose is going to reflect your individual desires and ain't

4423
03:16:39.010 --> 03:16:41.840
given time. And pursue that as long

4424
03:16:41.840 --> 03:16:45.000
as you want. But if there is a grand purpose that's the thing

4425
03:16:45.000 --> 03:16:46.560
to discover. I'm convinced there

4426
03:16:46.560 --> 03:16:49.920
is and I think this is why we have this hunger for answering

4427
03:16:49.920 --> 03:16:52.880
these kinds of questions. And there's

4428
03:16:52.880 --> 03:16:56.050
a lot of variables that are involved here. But there and I

4429
03:16:56.050 --> 03:16:58.000
mentioned before the things that stand

4430
03:16:58.000 --> 03:17:01.850
out for me is we have this internal sense that I think is there

4431
03:17:01.850 --> 03:17:04.960
because we are a spiritual being.

4432
03:17:04.960 --> 03:17:07.490
People say, well, I'm religious. I'm spiritual, but I'm not

4433
03:17:07.490 --> 03:17:08.800
religious. I said, of course,

4434
03:17:08.800 --> 03:17:12.510
you're spiritual. God made you that way so that you could know

4435
03:17:12.510 --> 03:17:14.240
him. There is that element.

4436
03:17:14.240 --> 03:17:17.420
This is subjective. Okay. I think we're all aware of it. And

4437
03:17:17.420 --> 03:17:19.520
then there is objective things

4438
03:17:19.520 --> 03:17:23.570
that we can appeal to. You mentioned earlier the resurrection

4439
03:17:23.570 --> 03:17:25.520
of Christ, the existence of the world,

4440
03:17:25.520 --> 03:17:28.170
the order that the world is in, the existence of morality, the

4441
03:17:28.170 --> 03:17:29.280
existence of free will,

4442
03:17:29.280 --> 03:17:33.190
all kinds of other things that are part of the package of the

4443
03:17:33.190 --> 03:17:34.240
Christian worldview that

4444
03:17:34.240 --> 03:17:37.080
are well explained by that worldview. And one of the reasons

4445
03:17:37.080 --> 03:17:38.480
that I'm a Christian is because I

4446
03:17:38.480 --> 03:17:41.250
think it's that all things considered, it's the best

4447
03:17:41.250 --> 03:17:43.360
explanation for the way things are.

4448
03:17:43.360 --> 03:17:46.070
Not because all of the questions are answered for me. You have

4449
03:17:46.070 --> 03:17:47.680
raised issues that I'm

4450
03:17:47.680 --> 03:17:50.380
talking about that. It's a mystery. Some of these things. But

4451
03:17:50.380 --> 03:17:52.640
life is filled with mysteries. All right.

4452
03:17:52.640 --> 03:17:55.830
And this seems to be one mystery, the big picture that is

4453
03:17:55.830 --> 03:17:57.840
resolved by Christianity,

4454
03:17:57.840 --> 03:18:00.720
by the Christian understanding of reality. I call it the story

4455
03:18:00.720 --> 03:18:01.440
of reality.

4456
03:18:01.440 --> 03:18:04.390
Thank you so much for all being here today. It's truly

4457
03:18:04.390 --> 03:18:06.480
fascinating discussion. And it has

4458
03:18:06.480 --> 03:18:10.000
actually pushed me forward. I share how it's pushed me forward,

4459
03:18:10.000 --> 03:18:10.800
but it certainly pushed me

4460
03:18:10.800 --> 03:18:12.510
forward in a number of ways. And it's helped me to understand

4461
03:18:12.510 --> 03:18:14.160
you all. I'm big fans of all of

4462
03:18:14.160 --> 03:18:17.400
yours. You will make a lot of great content on YouTube in

4463
03:18:17.400 --> 03:18:19.120
various ways. Alex, I've watched your

4464
03:18:19.120 --> 03:18:21.330
channel so many times. I've watched so many of your videos for

4465
03:18:21.330 --> 03:18:22.720
so long, because you help you kind of

4466
03:18:22.720 --> 03:18:25.900
represent one part of my perspective in curiosity. And you're a

4467
03:18:25.900 --> 03:18:29.520
very intelligent, thoughtful,

4468
03:18:29.520 --> 03:18:34.560
philosophical master of playing with ideas. And you've really

4469
03:18:34.560 --> 03:18:36.720
done your homework. So it's

4470
03:18:36.720 --> 03:18:38.480
fascinating to watch what YouTube's doing like that. I highly

4471
03:18:38.480 --> 03:18:39.520
recommend people. But it's quite

4472
03:18:39.520 --> 03:18:41.280
the accolade. That's very kind. No, but it is. It's all going

4473
03:18:41.280 --> 03:18:43.600
on the front of my book. Good. And your

4474
03:18:43.600 --> 03:18:46.630
book is on the way. We're very excited. One day, one day. Who

4475
03:18:46.630 --> 03:18:48.640
knows when, but it will come eventually.

4476
03:18:48.640 --> 03:18:51.030
Well, keep doing what you're doing because, you know, you're,

4477
03:18:51.030 --> 03:18:53.920
you're a vessel for, for people. And

4478
03:18:53.920 --> 03:18:57.760
who knows where that vessel ends up going? But it's okay. And

4479
03:18:57.760 --> 03:19:00.800
thank you, Dr. K. You're a master

4480
03:19:00.800 --> 03:19:02.750
of what you do. And actually, when you talked about your, your

4481
03:19:02.750 --> 03:19:04.480
shacker, the one, the intuition

4482
03:19:04.480 --> 03:19:06.840
one, I was like, Hey, giggling, because I've never felt so

4483
03:19:06.840 --> 03:19:08.080
naked in front of someone in my

4484
03:19:08.080 --> 03:19:12.090
entire life, as I do in front of you. And I can only attest to

4485
03:19:12.090 --> 03:19:14.080
the, the great work that you do

4486
03:19:14.080 --> 03:19:16.840
as a result of that bizarre intuition. I think I told you the

4487
03:19:16.840 --> 03:19:18.240
first, I think I told other people

4488
03:19:18.240 --> 03:19:20.120
after the first time I met you that I think you have a magic

4489
03:19:20.120 --> 03:19:22.480
power. And it's quite unnerving to be

4490
03:19:22.480 --> 03:19:24.850
around someone that I feel like has a magic power. I highly

4491
03:19:24.850 --> 03:19:26.240
recommend people go and check out your

4492
03:19:26.240 --> 03:19:29.290
YouTube channel. Um, you've been on the show a few times and,

4493
03:19:29.290 --> 03:19:30.960
um, the response I get out and out

4494
03:19:30.960 --> 03:19:33.380
and about in public is profound. So thank you for coming back

4495
03:19:33.380 --> 03:19:35.280
again. It's really, really appreciated.

4496
03:19:35.280 --> 03:19:37.060
And thank you, Greg. Thank you for writing these incredible

4497
03:19:37.060 --> 03:19:38.480
books. There's actually one here,

4498
03:19:38.480 --> 03:19:41.650
which is what you ended on called the story of reality, which I

4499
03:19:41.650 --> 03:19:42.960
think is a great start in place for

4500
03:19:42.960 --> 03:19:46.840
people that are trying to tease out some of the truths in their

4501
03:19:46.840 --> 03:19:48.720
own life. Actually, we have a chapter

4502
03:19:48.720 --> 03:19:50.610
that we would like to give to your listeners, so they can give

4503
03:19:50.610 --> 03:19:52.000
the landing show. I'll link all

4504
03:19:52.000 --> 03:19:54.170
of that below. So I'll link all of your books below, but also

4505
03:19:54.170 --> 03:19:55.600
that free chapter. Thank you so much,

4506
03:19:55.600 --> 03:19:59.760
everybody. Thanks for that. Thank you. Thank you. Make sure you

4507
03:19:59.760 --> 03:20:02.480
keep one about to say to yourself,

4508
03:20:02.480 --> 03:20:05.430
I'm inviting 10,000 of you to come even deeper into the

4509
03:20:05.430 --> 03:20:08.720
diversity. Welcome to my inner circle.

4510
03:20:08.720 --> 03:20:11.490
This is a brand new private community that I'm launching to the

4511
03:20:11.490 --> 03:20:12.880
world. We have so many

4512
03:20:12.880 --> 03:20:16.320
incredible things that happen that you are never shown. We have

4513
03:20:16.320 --> 03:20:17.680
the briefs that are on my

4514
03:20:17.680 --> 03:20:20.230
pad when I'm recording the conversation. We have clips we've

4515
03:20:20.230 --> 03:20:22.240
never released. We have behind-the-scenes

4516
03:20:22.240 --> 03:20:25.440
conversations with the guests and also the episodes that we've

4517
03:20:25.440 --> 03:20:28.480
never ever released. And so much more.

4518
03:20:28.480 --> 03:20:31.650
In a circle, you'll have direct access to me. You can tell us

4519
03:20:31.650 --> 03:20:33.040
what you want this show to be,

4520
03:20:33.040 --> 03:20:35.940
who you want us to interview and the types of conversations you

4521
03:20:35.940 --> 03:20:38.240
would love us to have. But remember,

4522
03:20:38.240 --> 03:20:41.730
for now, we're only inviting the first 10,000 people that join

4523
03:20:41.730 --> 03:20:43.120
before it closes. So if you want to

4524
03:20:43.120 --> 03:20:45.370
join our private close community, head to the link in the

4525
03:20:45.370 --> 03:20:50.000
description below or go to d-o-a-c-circle.com.

4526
03:20:50.000 --> 03:20:59.360
I will speak to you then.

4527
03:21:08.240 --> 03:21:17.600
[Music]