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Not really ever spoke about it in depth like this.

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Nothing prepares you in life for those kind of situations,

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but I felt like I'd failed at the time.

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That's the truth.

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And it's still something that I'm unpacking still to be honest.

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Louis, will you spoke to your sister, Lottie?

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About this. Would you like to see it?

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Louis, time like this!

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I didn't spend my life as a young lad thinking I was going to be a singer.

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Like, I grew up in a working class of town.

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Seven of us living in a three-bed house.

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Like, I'm almost used to work a lot of nights.

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She had to play dad as well.

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So I would have to get my sisters ready for school.

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So people in Dunkass didn't get those opportunities.

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And then the expected came along.

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I auditioned three times.

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The first time I've failed, the second time I've failed.

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I don't remember thinking f**k.

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This is utterly crushing.

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Just sobbing to me more.

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But she made me feel like I could do anything.

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So instead of running away, it was like,

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I know I deserve it, I know I can.

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So how do I relearn confidence and go through a third time?

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You don't think about what happened in the preceding five or six years.

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It is crazy.

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Yeah, and the toughest thing to deal with is just the lack of normality.

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And part of growing up in a working class of town.

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Have this like guilt for the success and money that I've earned.

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And then personal worth within the band.

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And really, really struggled with.

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But you coerate 15 platinum singles.

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I wanted to do more.

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But mostly for me, it didn't realise the value of the family time.

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And the more time I spent at the band, the more time I spent away from Poland.

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Like two of my sisters who are identical twins.

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I've never told them this.

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But I wasn't confident enough to tell them apart.

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That shows just how little I was at home.

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And then it ends.

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And what was really strange was being 24 years old.

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Realising that the only way is down from it.

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Louis, there's so many things that happened in your life.

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How does a young man grieve?

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It's not really something I speak.

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It loads about, but I'm happy too.

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Because I cannot have that to find me.

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The floor is yours.

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Just give me 30 seconds of your time.

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Two things I wanted to say.

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The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show.

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Week after week means the world to all of us.

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And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had.

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And couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

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But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

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And if you enjoy what we do here,

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please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly

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and follow us on this app.

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Here's a promise I'm going to make to you.

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I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.

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We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to.

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And we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

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Thank you.

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Louis, to understand you,

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what is the earliest context that I need?

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Something that played a massive role for me in my life was the fact that maybe for the first four or five years of my life,

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it was just me and my mom.

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My first proper memories are just kind of having like really kind of nice and warm

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and really like emotional conversations my mom.

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I think something that I'm kind of proud of is that I find it easy to be emotional.

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And I kind of like talking about my feelings and I like getting into conversation with the people about that.

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And that was definitely something that she instilled in me from like a really young age.

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And something that still definitely really helps me today, especially navigating through the life like I have.

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Those kind of things have been I was talking about your emotions and your feelings, like vitally important,

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actually for the job that I do mentally.

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So your father wasn't around, your biological father left soon after you were born?

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Yeah, it's not really something I speak loads about, but I'm happy to.

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Yeah, he wasn't involved in my life at all.

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I've met him like three times ever.

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So your mother played I guess several roles in your life?

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Yeah, I mean, one was always really good at that.

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I think she realized the fact that my dad wasn't going to be around that she had to play dad as well.

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And she had this kind of mischievous instinct in her mom and definitely kind of inspired some of that.

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And part of that was her being her, but part of that was also trying to play that kind of dad role.

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You know, we kind of lock about and encroached to do kind of silly things that aren't going to hurt, you know.

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She was just like, I could get emotional.

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She was just the best woman I ever knew definitely.

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And also just I feel so vitally like lucky to be able to have her as my mentor.

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Because she just everything that I looked to in like friends and partners, et cetera,

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they're the kind of things that she embodied really.

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And you had siblings?

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Yeah, lots of them.

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Yeah, lots of them.

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So when I grew up, I kind of like the bulk of my childhood.

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There was seven of us living in a three bed house.

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I've got a little bit better out, but one thing I really have struggled with is being on my own.

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And the more I've thought about that is I've got a bit older.

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It's because I just never had an opportunity to be when I was young.

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When you live in a house that, you know, it's three bedroom.

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There's seven people living in there.

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You're literally all living on top of each other.

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And I loved that.

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Like it was like one of the best things that ever happened to me being an older brother.

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Like I just, it's just, it's like one of the definitions of my purpose, I would say.

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I just like to look after people, man.

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So like being an older brother is like a role.

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I feel like I was always supposed to do.

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And then I think even, you know, as we move through life,

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and a couple of things got more challenging,

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that role has become more prevalent, definitely.

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All right.

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I was fortunate enough to speak to quite a few people that have known you over the years.

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I heard that was cool. That was cool.

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Yeah. And I was just listening to some of the recordings of those conversations like Nizam.

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Yeah.

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He's your childhood's best friends.

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Yeah.

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Kyle.

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Who's your photographer and videographer?

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Yeah. Love Kyle.

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Throughout the years in Lottie.

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Who's your youngest sister, six years younger?

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Mm-hmm.

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And it's interesting that one of the things they all came back to is that you really haven't changed.

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I appreciate that.

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It's fundamental.

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Yeah, but that's what they said.

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Like I know.

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Your best friend from childhood said that's one of the most remarkable things

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that you're still made out of the same stuff and you've never turned around

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and thought you were anything more than you were back then when he knew you.

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And that's one thing I love about him, you know, as a friend.

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I've never said this to his face.

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But, you know, he's a real guy.

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Like, you know, he's never turned around to us and never said all.

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I'm this big shock now or that ego.

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You know, that's never played and he's never been in barra stables.

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So he's a real guy.

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It's at least 50% conscious that or at least it started out as that idea

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because I think when you enter a crazy situation and one direction being like the pinnacle of that idea,

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there's people around you that all of a sudden feel that used to feel really, really similar

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and all of a sudden they feel really different.

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I'm not talking about day-stay conversation, but I'm talking about stuff that we can relate to,

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problems that I might have had that I might, you know, talk to them about.

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And I think that's quite an alienating feeling.

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So instead of kind of just submitting, I've always, always resisted that.

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It's been really important to me.

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And those kind of things, you know, hearing that and hearing other people say that about me,

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that does make me really proud because it's definitely a lifestyle that can kind of sweep you up.

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Kind of sweep you away, but I think the older side of that and getting swept away,

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I don't really like the idea of what that might look like.

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And I think you need people around you that are going to tell you if you're being a dick,

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like vitally important in this job, definitely.

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And those things, I think when you surrounded, you know, like a lot of successful people are,

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when you're surrounded only by success, it breeds a funny kind of narrative to be respected

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and people in donkester like that, that means a lot to me, definitely.

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So that's why another reason why, you know, I wouldn't drive through the streets of donkester

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in a fucking Ferrari or whatever.

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And you went to school in donkester, hayfields?

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Yeah, hayfields where I did most of my time and then I failed mail levels and then went somewhere else for a year.

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You failed rail levels?

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I failed mail levels, yes.

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That was the first time I'd ever, ever got a real ballerkin off me mum, a real, real dressing down.

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Cause she was really, really fair.

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But there was something that she was kind of strict on with schoolwork.

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And I remember getting in the car and she said, you fucked your life up.

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And she never swore, she never swore.

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And I remember, I got goosebumps thinking about it.

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And I remember thinking, maybe any of these do something with my life.

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At 15 years old, 15, 16 years old, you joined a drama group.

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And I was watching actually just before you arrived at 17 years old, you got the lead role in Greece.

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The foundations were set and you ultimately 18 years old decide to go in audition?

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Yeah, that was the third time I audition for the expirator.

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So every year previous to that.

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So that would have made me 16 when I first auditioned.

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There's like three producer auditions and then you get to see Simon, you know, it's the main one.

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And the first year, I didn't get through any of them.

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The second year, I got through the first round.

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And then for the final time, I said to myself, well, I'm going to give this one more shot.

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Because that was another thing at that age.

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It's one thing saying you're resilient.

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And I do think I am.

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But it's a lot easier to be resilient at that age as well, definitely.

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It's really surprising that someone would go to X-Factor once, be rejected essentially.

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Go again, not make it.

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And then go again, without having their self-esteem or their confidence,

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not to the point where they go, I'm not going to go through that again.

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Because every time you got to come home, you got to your friends and family, it didn't work out.

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Yeah. Well, the first year, I remember it being utterly crushing.

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Like, I had not really had real rejection at that point.

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I hadn't really experienced that kind of thing.

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The second time I went was even more challenging.

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Because I went with, while described was like the hottest girl at school at the time, right?

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So she's also a singer we got talking like months ago, turns out she wants to audition for X-Factor as well.

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I'm like, well, let's go together thinking this could be like a smart little play.

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She goes before me.

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And I think at this point, I feel like I was still in the queue.

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And she showed me that she got through to the next round.

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It was like a gold ticket.

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I then didn't get through.

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And then we got, because I was with her and I was traveling with her,

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we then got ushered into a room of, say, 200 people.

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And every single person in the room had a yes.

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I remember that being really, really challenging.

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You just surrounded by people that are dreaming.

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You know, they're really, really excited about what does the next stage look like?

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That created a bit more fire, I think.

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It was like, okay, how do I get on the right side of this next year?

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How do I, how do I be in this group of people next year?

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Did your mum play role in you going for that third year?

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I can't remember specifically, but I would say if I would have had any level of doubt, 100%,

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the musical that you just referenced that I did at school, I didn't want to go to that audition.

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And she literally picked me up and drove me there.

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And I was so thankful that she did.

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She was often very, very good at pushy parents.

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That's not good.

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She was never like that.

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She always had the right amount of force.

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Because sometimes you need that as a kid, especially actually even as adults.

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In the situation where you're second-guessing something,

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if someone goes, go on, you can do it.

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You're okay.

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So I think that definitely played a big role in that.

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Even if I suggested that I wasn't going to go to this audition.

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Throughout the year, she would have been giving me a hundred different reasons to go.

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Now, not literally, but just from a confidence point of view,

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the way she was talking to me, how she always just put me on this amazing pedestal.

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She made me feel like I could do anything, definitely.

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And I think that helps in those kind of situations, going for it for a third time,

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because maybe I'm saying I can do it.

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So you do the audition, are you saying make you feel my love?

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That was bootcamp.

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So that was the second part of the audition.

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My first audition was a song called, Hey, They're Delilah.

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It did nothing for me, like Son of Clay.

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Obviously, now I can say this because I've got a bit more experience.

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But it's young lad, you're not thinking about any of these things.

239
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I like that song. I'll sing that song.

240
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It was bad. It was really, really bad.

241
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And to the point where still makes me deeply uncomfortable listening to or watching that audition,

242
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the only thing I'd done like this is the school production of Greece.

243
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And that was to about 250 people over two nights.

244
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And that felt like a fucking mountain of people.

245
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Cut to then your live TV audition, the M&M in Manchester,

246
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and there's 3,000 people in the audience.

247
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3,000 people is a big gig for anyone to play, like full stop.

248
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Like if you do 3,000 tickets, you're doing really, really well.

249
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So it was, it's the definition of being thrown at the deep end.

250
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And I think that's part of what they want, but it's not going to yield the best results from everyone.

251
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Some people it is, but I just remember feeling like a fucking deer in a headlight.

252
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It's like really, really shaky, like really, really, just felt really, really uncomfortable.

253
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I just wanted the ground to swallow me up.

254
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I'd never been in a situation where I was quite confident in young lad,

255
00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:04.000
so it wasn't very often I'd even been out in my comfort zone like that.

256
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And I just felt like a deer in a headlight, definitely.

257
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Am I right in thinking that they probably had the idea to construct a band much sooner than...

258
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They must have done.

259
00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:14.000
They must have done.

260
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No, no in Simon.

261
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I will have had these conversations within the past, but I can't remember now.

262
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But no in Simon, yeah, I think, you know what he's like, right?

263
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He will have had that in his mind for at least three years before.

264
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He loves a boy band as well.

265
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He's got a track record.

266
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Yeah, they're making a lot of money.

267
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And so you come third on the X-Factor as a band when you put together,

268
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and then you signed at 19 years old to Simon Cowell's Psycho Music.

269
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And it's crazy because when I think about you signing at 19 years old

270
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and I think about what happened in the preceding five or six years,

271
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I mean, it is crazy.

272
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I mean, it's only now outside of being in one direction that I actually have a little bit of a concept of what happened.

273
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And even, you know, the craziness of it because nobody has any context to it before it happens.

274
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So we definitely...

275
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We felt like things were going really, really well.

276
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But we also, there will have been part of us, especially in that first year,

277
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of just assuming this is what, you know, success looks like, you know,

278
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a successful artist does these things.

279
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And the first moment that I remember distinctly, actually,

280
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that I realised that maybe this was bigger than, like, let's say, like, the average thing at the time,

281
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we got booked on a support gig with a, like, a Disney band called Big Time Rush.

282
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And before that tour show, our manager, our, like, senior manager,

283
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the kind of guy you only see, you know, like six gigs a year,

284
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and it just happens to be Vegas and L.A. in all the best places in the world, you know.

285
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And he sat down, it was like, it's dressing down.

286
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And it was like, look, this is what you need to expect from a gig like this.

287
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Expect people to only know the singles.

288
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And even if they know the singles, you know, like, that's a real win.

289
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They're not going to know the words, the album tracks.

290
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It's going to be a very, very different show to what you expected.

291
00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.000
So we're all ready to go out fighting, because we've not really had that at that point.

292
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We'd help at most things that we'd done.

293
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We felt really confident doing.

294
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So like, we, we, we were kind of going on in the back four.

295
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And then I remember when we walked out on stage,

296
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and I think we opened with something that wasn't a single,

297
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and people were just locked in, like, massively locked in.

298
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And it was really, really fucking loud in there.

299
00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:29.000
And I think that was a moment where I remember again,

300
00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:31.000
I had this kind of side to me when I was younger.

301
00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:33.000
I was so excited to tell Richard it was a manager at the time.

302
00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:36.000
I was so excited to tell him post gig about how it actually went.

303
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:37.000
Did you see it then?

304
00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:39.000
Because that was obviously not how it played out.

305
00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.000
And I remember feeling pretty smug about that.

306
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:44.000
But I think one, it was once I kind of got to bed that evening.

307
00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.000
I was kind of thinking, I don't know,

308
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:48.000
I wasn't overly deep think at that point,

309
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.000
but I was still thinking occasionally on a deep level.

310
00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.000
And I'm looking at this music manager and I'm thinking,

311
00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:55.000
like, this guy is like Uber experience.

312
00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:58.000
Like he's been in the situation countless times.

313
00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:02.000
So if he was to predict it wrong, like maybe he did,

314
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:05.000
I'm like, well, maybe we, maybe something is happening.

315
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.000
How do you take care of yourself amongst that?

316
00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:09.000
Because one of the things I've learned from doing this podcast

317
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.000
is I've learned so much about the brain.

318
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.000
I've learned so much about dopamine and sleep and circadian rhythms

319
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.000
and all these things.

320
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:20.000
And so when I fit that into the context of what your life was like

321
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.000
at an age where these neuroscientists tell me

322
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:24.000
that the male brain is still growing,

323
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:27.000
it's still forming itself, you're putting this tremendous

324
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:28.000
external pressure on it.

325
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.000
You're like shocking every now.

326
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.000
I remember when I interviewed Liam, your former bandmate,

327
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:34.000
him telling me that he would like,

328
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:36.000
he remembers walking out on stage

329
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:37.000
and I think it was Dubai.

330
00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:39.000
There's like 100,000 people there.

331
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.000
And then thrown in, you probably remember the gig,

332
00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.000
like thrown into the taxi,

333
00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:45.000
taken back to the hotel room and locked in there.

334
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.000
And it was like, I remember him saying to me,

335
00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:51.000
there was a stage, car, hotel, locked, stage, car, hotel locked.

336
00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:52.000
Like, fuck.

337
00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:56.000
I would say the way that we both handled it, me and Liam,

338
00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.000
was quite different.

339
00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:00.000
I think that's often why I kind of,

340
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:02.000
I had a good relationship with Zane from Ilyon

341
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:05.000
because neither of us are kind of rule abiding.

342
00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:08.000
And not in a way that's like utterly disruptive.

343
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.000
It's just we have our own ideas, you know?

344
00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:13.000
And that at least alleviated a little bit of the pressure,

345
00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.000
knowing that deep down, if I want it's just going to do something,

346
00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:18.000
I would genuinely just go and do it.

347
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.000
Whereas I think Liam and the other boys actually

348
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:25.000
to a degree, there was, there was an element of a little bit of fear, I think, you know?

349
00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.000
And, and also Liam, you know,

350
00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.000
it worked so hard for the age of 14 to get there.

351
00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:31.000
Liam's journey was a lot different to mine.

352
00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:33.000
My, I just felt like a happy girl,

353
00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:34.000
you know, when the lottery, you know?

354
00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.000
Whereas Liam was very, very precise and deliberate

355
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:40.000
and he'd got there for all his hard work.

356
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:43.000
So I think we also came from a slightly different point of view.

357
00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:47.000
Another benefit that I, I had during that time

358
00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:50.000
and I still have is I'm not a dweller.

359
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:52.000
Like I'm, I'm an overthinker for sure,

360
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:54.000
but I wouldn't say like I'm a dweller.

361
00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.000
So that wouldn't use this phrase to me very often,

362
00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:58.000
but like there would, there's definitely an element of ignorance

363
00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.000
is bliss during that whole time.

364
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.000
I find it so fascinating that you talk about this like this idea

365
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:06.000
of you being having the, the minerals or the personality

366
00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.000
where you would push back against the system a little bit

367
00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:13.000
because when I spoke to your former camera man and videographer,

368
00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.000
he said that you, you were the one in the group

369
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:19.000
that stood up against the label.

370
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:21.000
So you'd be the one to turn around to the record label

371
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.000
and say, we need to day off.

372
00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:25.000
And it's interesting again,

373
00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.000
because I was, one of the things I learned from doing this podcast

374
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.000
is this idea of like learn helplessness and control

375
00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:30.000
and autonomy, basically.

376
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:34.000
Tell DR is, it says that people who feel like they have control

377
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:38.000
have much better physiological health outcomes.

378
00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.000
They have less stress, they're more insulated,

379
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.000
better psychological states, less anxiety, less depression

380
00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:45.000
because they feel like they're in control of the situation.

381
00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.000
So there's this crazy study that I was reading about

382
00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:49.000
when I was running my last book about these rats

383
00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:52.000
where they learn that they can't do anything about the situation

384
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.000
and they basically give up and they become submissive

385
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.000
and they stop trying.

386
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.000
And I think about this in the context of humans as well.

387
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.000
And you're from what your videographer told me, Cam,

388
00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.000
you were clearly not that.

389
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.000
You were clearly someone that would push against

390
00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:08.000
Simon Cowell's record label as a young man.

391
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.000
Yeah, and that's something I've had a few conversations

392
00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:14.000
with my friends, similar things about this.

393
00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.000
And I'm not certain where that was like inspired by,

394
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:18.000
because it's brave, right?

395
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.000
To stare someone who at the time, at least in pop,

396
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.000
was one of the most successful people in the music industry

397
00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.000
and say, no, you've got it wrong.

398
00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:27.000
Here's me, an 18-year-old, with no experience,

399
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:29.000
telling you you've got it wrong.

400
00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:33.000
I think what gave me confidence in those ideas

401
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.000
is even if it wasn't a collective voice,

402
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.000
even if it was just my voice to live in the message,

403
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.000
it was always with collective intention.

404
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.000
It would always be for the good of all of us.

405
00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:45.000
Making those decisions now on my own,

406
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.000
they're not quite as easy.

407
00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:49.000
There's a lot of different things that play.

408
00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:52.000
And again, it comes from that big brother role again.

409
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.000
I was the oldest in the band.

410
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.000
It was kind of my role in the band, I think,

411
00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.000
to do that.

412
00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.000
And I realized that by far I was the most opinionated

413
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:03.000
in the band, definitely.

414
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:06.000
So I think I wanted to use that for good,

415
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.000
not just trying to shit about someone on Twitter or something.

416
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.000
Another important distinction about one direction is,

417
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.000
this is not disrespectful to Ed.

418
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:15.000
I appreciate it.

419
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.000
I was in a boy band, I know that, right?

420
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.000
But if there would be one genre of music,

421
00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:21.000
then I would think might be the most naff.

422
00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:24.000
It's boy band, if you could call that a genre.

423
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:26.000
So going into, at this point, going into one direction

424
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.000
when I was 18, growing up in the north of England,

425
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000
it's like real, it's kind of like snobby music.

426
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:38.000
There's like real music and then there's boy bands.

427
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.000
So having that kind of feeling going into it,

428
00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:45.000
that was why it was easy to kind of push a gain

429
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:47.000
some of these old school ideas.

430
00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:50.000
Because they were the ideas that I didn't,

431
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:53.000
the reasons I didn't like these bands is because they all looked the same

432
00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.000
and because they all felt very kind of PR pressed.

433
00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:59.000
It was always a really interesting project for me

434
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.000
to try and to look at one direction and think,

435
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:05.000
well, how could we make this a little cooler?

436
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:09.000
I remember the real turning point in one direction was,

437
00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:11.000
when we put up the pre-order for our first single,

438
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.000
what makes it beautiful.

439
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.000
I can't remember the number, how much we sold that week,

440
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:19.000
but we broke some record right at the pre-order

441
00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:22.000
and we got told this, we'd not released any music at this point.

442
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:24.000
I never think, and that's fascinating.

443
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.000
Because they don't know what's going to sound like.

444
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:29.000
But they're invested.

445
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:31.000
That felt like power really on.

446
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.000
And it also felt like that we could rewrite the rulebook

447
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:39.000
because people were invested in us as much

448
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:40.000
if not more than the music.

449
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:41.000
I think that's fair to say.

450
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:44.000
Was there a part in the evolution in the journey of one direction

451
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:47.000
where you had that moment where you go,

452
00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.000
there's elements of my life that I love

453
00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:53.000
that I no longer have access to because of this.

454
00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:55.000
Success.

455
00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:00.000
I would say that it's more gradual than that, really.

456
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:06.000
You start to lose some of your own independence to a degree.

457
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.000
And then I think,

458
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:10.000
also the age I was, right?

459
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.000
I was 18 when I first joined the band.

460
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:17.000
And I always say this, that year of my life

461
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.000
before I auditioned for the X Factor,

462
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:23.000
at least up to those 18 years was the best year of my life.

463
00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:26.000
You know, you've got independence at that point.

464
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.000
I was driving.

465
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:28.000
You could go out.

466
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:31.000
Like it was just, it was, it was so fascinating.

467
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.000
Socially, there's always something to do.

468
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.000
So to leave that behind was quite gotten, actually.

469
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.000
And that taught me a second to get used to it first.

470
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.000
Now I always felt incredibly grateful

471
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:46.000
and really excited every time I was doing something with one direction.

472
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.000
But any kind of time for reflection,

473
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.000
I was, I was really, really missing home.

474
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.000
Like me and Sam would, when we were younger,

475
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:55.000
we had countless conversations of like, you know,

476
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:56.000
should we just pack it in?

477
00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:58.000
Should we just call it a day?

478
00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:59.000
Why?

479
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:03.000
Because you, you feel alienated.

480
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:07.000
You've got, you, you, you are living this lifestyle that,

481
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:09.000
and there's a million different reasons, right?

482
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.000
But like the fame thing's really difficult.

483
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.000
And mostly for me, it was about being alienated.

484
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:18.000
And I can't, like any of my life experience

485
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:22.000
was now not so relevant to some of my friends, you know?

486
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:24.000
And I think that also I have this,

487
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:26.000
I think this is part of growing up in a working class,

488
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.000
working class town, but have this like guilt

489
00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:32.000
for the success and money that, that, that event as well.

490
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:35.000
And I think that also is kind of part of the same thing.

491
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:39.000
I think, I think for, it's kind of like two different things.

492
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:44.000
The fame thing I'll never, I'll never be okay with.

493
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.000
Like if I, like, of course every artist says this,

494
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:50.000
but if I could just do the music, you know,

495
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.000
it would be amazing.

496
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:52.000
That would be amazing.

497
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:54.000
I suppose I called on a, on a lower level,

498
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:56.000
but I wouldn't get the same rush that I do.

499
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:58.000
I think it's almost, yes, it's almost everything else

500
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.000
that, that comes with that.

501
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.000
It's interesting when someone says they felt isolated,

502
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:04.000
which is something I've had a lot from people

503
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:05.000
who've had great public success,

504
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.000
where they've got a big fan base,

505
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:11.000
because we think of like isolation as not being around people.

506
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:13.000
But I guess isolation in the context you describe

507
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.000
is more about connecting to people,

508
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:16.000
relatability.

509
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.000
Yeah, but it's also like the metaphor would be,

510
00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:21.000
like what's that really famous crossing in Japan?

511
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:24.000
If you took a drone shot and you pulled right out from that,

512
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:28.000
and you would just become a little dot amongst the noise,

513
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:31.000
sometimes that's kind of how it feels.

514
00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:35.000
Because also it's not the, it's not the real world, you know,

515
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:39.000
even in the way that people perceive you,

516
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:42.000
it's not the real world.

517
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.000
The first moment that One Direction got,

518
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.000
the first big payback it was a merchandise deal that we got,

519
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.000
and we always did really good merch.

520
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:51.000
How old were you?

521
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:52.000
19.

522
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.000
That was the first kind of moment where I felt

523
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.000
really, really excited.

524
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.000
And so I rang my mom straight away,

525
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.000
you know, told her about it like I always would,

526
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.000
and she was really excited for me.

527
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:06.000
And obviously, you know, this, she's just proud.

528
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.000
That's it.

529
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:10.000
And then I remember the feeling of,

530
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000
who else do I tell now?

531
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.000
Because like, do I call Nathan and tell him,

532
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.000
well, he'll be into that,

533
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:21.000
and he'll be really proud of me.

534
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.000
But bear in mind, he's just seeing me on the next factor.

535
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.000
And this is another thing I read about people is,

536
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:28.000
they think if you're successful, then everything is just,

537
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:30.000
you know, successful, and that's how it goes.

538
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.000
Like, you know, if I call, if I didn't call Nathan,

539
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:35.000
but if I had called him, he probably would have been really nice.

540
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:37.000
But in his head, he would have shrugged his shoulders like,

541
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:39.000
obviously, you know, things are going really well for you.

542
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:42.000
So I think there's definitely a lack of understanding there,

543
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:43.000
rightly so.

544
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:46.000
There's also a girl, you know, especially that age.

545
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:50.000
People like, life's really, really expensive at that age.

546
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:53.000
People are up to their eyes and student loans.

547
00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:55.000
It was only about two years ago that I put all the plaques up

548
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:57.000
on my wall at home and my awards,

549
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:00.000
about the Brit Awards and stuff that I got in the past from the band.

550
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.000
They still annoy me, even now, in my lounge.

551
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:05.000
Because like, if I'm in a conversation with someone,

552
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:09.000
I don't even really want, like, I don't, I want to just be me.

553
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:11.000
I don't want to be that guy that won those awards.

554
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:13.000
Like, we can be and we can conversation like that.

555
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:16.000
But truthfully, like, if someone, if Nizam came over to my house

556
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:19.000
for like a chat and a coffee, I would hate that the conversation

557
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:22.000
might end up then gravitating to me or my success.

558
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:26.000
It's much more about just what those relationships and conversations

559
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:29.000
look like in the real world, that's what I'm craving.

560
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:31.000
Is that real normality?

561
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:36.000
All I want is to just be on an even playing field with everyone

562
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.000
in any kind of conversation.

563
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.000
I think that was the toughest thing to deal with.

564
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.000
It's just the lack of normality in every sense of the word.

565
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:47.000
How does things like alcohol play into this?

566
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:49.000
Because you're living a crazy, crazy life where your dopamine

567
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.000
and your brain is being tested in all different ways.

568
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.000
I remember Liam saying to me, this is really when he started

569
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.000
to have a problem with alcohol in the early years of the band.

570
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:58.000
And he, I'm never forget it.

571
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:00.000
He, I'm talking to me about the mini bar in the room.

572
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.000
One of the things I didn't realize is, okay,

573
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.000
you've just been out on stage in front of 100,000 people.

574
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:07.000
Then you're back in a hotel room with a mini bar.

575
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:09.000
I feel the pull from alcohol.

576
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:13.000
And I definitely drank quite a bit when I was in the band.

577
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:16.000
But I think an important distinction post show

578
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:17.000
would be, I'd smoke my weed.

579
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:20.000
I'd go back to my tour bus and I'd go and smoke my weed

580
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.000
and saying, we'd smoke with me too.

581
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:25.000
I hope he doesn't mind me saying that, I'm sure he won't.

582
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:26.000
And that was great.

583
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:30.000
And actually, like, you know, people do things for different reasons.

584
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:31.000
And that was my voice.

585
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:32.000
That was my choice.

586
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.000
Now, the reason why that kind of suited my brain at that time

587
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.000
was I've just had all this noise in my head.

588
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:41.000
I've just had this crazy experience on stage.

589
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:45.000
And that's the noise that you kind of need to quiet down sometimes.

590
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:47.000
So what we would do is we'd get back on the tour bus.

591
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:49.000
We'd play Call of Duty zombies.

592
00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:51.000
We'd smoke our weed.

593
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.000
And like, that's all we'd think about.

594
00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:54.000
And that's all we do.

595
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:58.000
And then we'd get into cliché stoner chats and deep conversation,

596
00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:01.000
probably UFOs, you know, all that kind of shit.

597
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:06.000
And as, as, as daft as that might look and feel,

598
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.000
it, again, it's our normality.

599
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:10.000
It's creating the normality on tour.

600
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:13.000
It's a version of what our friends were doing back home as well.

601
00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:17.000
But also it just, it was such a lovely way

602
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:19.000
to kind of debrief from those moments.

603
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:20.000
Away from the madness.

604
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:23.000
You've just got this kind of really subdued, nice environment.

605
00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:28.000
The juxtaposition actually felt quite nice.

606
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:31.000
If you could go back to the day that you signed a contract with Psycho,

607
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:37.000
what is the advice that 33 year old Louis would give 18, 19 year old Louis?

608
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:40.000
Such a nice, really, really big question.

609
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:46.000
I think I would just, I think I would say to be, be confident in the earlier years

610
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:50.000
because the older I get, the more I realize most people in their earlier years

611
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:54.000
of doing said thing or to a degree, faking it.

612
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:56.000
And I think for a long time, I was just thinking,

613
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.000
well, you know, I didn't spend my life as a young lad thinking I was going to be a singer,

614
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:03.000
so I'm playing catch-up and all those things.

615
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:06.000
And this, and also there's another thing I'm more than comfortable enough to say.

616
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:08.000
I'm not the best singer in the world.

617
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:09.000
I'm okay with that, right?

618
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:14.000
But like, there was definitely a time where those things were challenging as a young lad.

619
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.000
And I think I would just cut myself a bit of slack as a young lad

620
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:27.000
because it's been a lot of my defiance and decision-making that's got me to where I've got.

621
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:28.000
And that should give you confidence.

622
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:35.000
So I think, I think as a young lad, I did really just felt like a deer in a headlight

623
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:38.000
and I couldn't really have any kind of context what was going on.

624
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:42.000
And I think when I'm talking about these things, I'm not talking about,

625
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:46.000
no, we're not going to do this Disney performance because I don't think it looks good

626
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:47.000
on the one direction.

627
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:51.000
I'm talking about more like introspective personal worth within the band

628
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:52.000
or those kind of things.

629
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:55.000
I really, really struggled with that as a young lad big time.

630
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:58.000
So I would say I would give myself a bit more credit there.

631
00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000
You really struggled with that?

632
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:00.000
Hmm.

633
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.000
I found it, I found it really tough.

634
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:07.000
So like, as I said before, I was the kid who won the lottery.

635
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:13.000
That's sang my first edition for the X Factor.

636
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:14.000
I didn't feel like I did a good job.

637
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.000
It was really surprised that I got the three S's.

638
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:22.000
Now, that was maybe four months before the first edition's air.

639
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.000
So I've told everyone at this point, obviously, I'm in a band on the X Factor

640
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.000
and I have told anyone that will listen like everyone.

641
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:35.000
And actually me and neither me nor Nile got any TV time on our edition.

642
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:38.000
So the irony is we get put in this band, but people have no idea we are.

643
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:43.000
Like there's no context for the viewers to actually see this and actually really care.

644
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:46.000
I felt like I was playing culture from that moment in.

645
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:51.000
I remember there's like really like real nothing, typical X Factor thing.

646
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:54.000
We went filming for the judges' houses, which is the stage.

647
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:58.000
You have the auditions, then bootcamp, judges' houses, live shows.

648
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.000
And we went filming for judges' houses.

649
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.000
And I was already questioned, I wasn't really singing at all.

650
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:06.000
I've not had any individual thing to sing.

651
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:07.000
It was like Harmony stuff.

652
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:10.000
And I got stung by C.E.R. Chin, right?

653
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:13.000
Random story, my foot blew up like an elephant.

654
00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:16.000
And we had to film all this, you know what X Factor's like, right?

655
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:17.000
We had to film all this jeopardy.

656
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:21.000
This is like, how will the boys audition without Louis?

657
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:22.000
It was awful.

658
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:26.000
It was awful because there was no credibility to that statement.

659
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.000
The boys could have auditioned straight away.

660
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:31.000
At that point, I was doing a lower harmony.

661
00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:35.000
And I would be shocked if anyone could even hear me in the mix at that point.

662
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:39.000
So that was really challenging where, you know, I'm already started to feel those things.

663
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:42.000
And then you get something like that that's quite literal in there.

664
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:44.000
And they're trying to sell this jeopardy.

665
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:49.000
And I remember thinking, oh, I just really, I wanted to do more.

666
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:51.000
I just didn't know how to do that.

667
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:53.000
Again, there's no context.

668
00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:56.000
I thought I was a good singer before I went to the X Factor.

669
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:58.000
Then I get through the audition. They put me through.

670
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:00.000
I'm like, okay, well, I must be all right.

671
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.000
Then they don't show the TV audition.

672
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:05.000
You're like, oh, maybe that's like a personality thing.

673
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.000
I don't know. Maybe it's my voice.

674
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:12.000
There's a lot of, there's a lot of, especially as a young lad in this situation,

675
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.000
there's a lot of unanswered questions.

676
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:15.000
Did you ever ask those questions?

677
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:17.000
Did I ever ask him why I was in that band?

678
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:19.000
No, I would love to though. I would have loved to.

679
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:21.000
But do you know why I wouldn't would never with him?

680
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:25.000
Simon would probably, he would, he would, Simon was always very brilliant at making

681
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:30.000
me feel like worthy in the band.

682
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:35.000
But as he said before, like I was often a voice between the band and the label.

683
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.000
He was the label.

684
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.000
Well, he put me on side and it's a smart move, isn't it?

685
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:42.000
One thing he would always do, Stephen, is he would always say my name.

686
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:46.000
Now, when you're a 19 year old lad and Simon Cowell says,

687
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:48.000
do you know what the thing is about that idea, Louis?

688
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:49.000
You are empowered.

689
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:54.000
Now, what we like people using our names, now imagine that Simon Cowell in 19 years old.

690
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:58.000
There is a spell that comes with that and there's a power that comes with that.

691
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:04.000
And I think, I think for a long time, I kind of, I kind of fell for all those kind of ideas.

692
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.000
Now, I think Simon again is an interesting person.

693
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.000
He is a brilliant businessman.

694
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:11.000
Now, I learned a lot from him.

695
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:14.000
I still deeply respect him.

696
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:17.000
And I was, I was, I was in awe of him as a young lad.

697
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:19.000
I just, I was, I loved to be around him.

698
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:23.000
I loved to listen to him make decisions and all of that.

699
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:26.000
And I thought he was, he was definitely brilliant at that time.

700
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:33.000
He just, he built me up on a pedestal to the point where I thought that it would actually

701
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:38.000
have a real world meaning, not just a thanks darling kind of vibe.

702
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.000
When did you realize that it didn't?

703
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.000
When I joined Psycho on my own.

704
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.000
So this is after the band.

705
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:45.000
Yeah, sorry.

706
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:50.000
So the band split up and now I didn't have my pick of record labels.

707
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:51.000
It was never like that.

708
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:54.000
But even if I had, I could have had 10 offers on the table.

709
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:56.000
It's just to assume they're all the same money.

710
00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.000
I would have, I would have picked Simon always because like again,

711
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:07.000
a little bit like the North of England loyalty is like a really important currency.

712
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:10.000
It really is in these kind of, you know, working class places.

713
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:11.000
It's really, really vital.

714
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:14.000
And I think like for me, it was, I always meant a lot to me.

715
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:18.000
So I thought, well, if I'm, I'd heard some of the other boys were thinking about going to the labels,

716
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.000
which they were right to.

717
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.000
And I found out was they only won.

718
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.000
It was going to stay with them.

719
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:25.000
And I just motivated me more.

720
00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:27.000
So all the other boys went and joined different record labels.

721
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:32.000
Some of them not even within labels that were in Sony, which Psycho was part of.

722
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:36.000
I never think, oh, wow, this is like, it's amazing for me actually that all the boys have done that.

723
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:38.000
Because like, look how good this makes me look to Simon.

724
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:39.000
I look really loyal.

725
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:42.000
And like some of it was like deliberate.

726
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.000
But mostly that's just how I am as a person.

727
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:50.000
Like I would rather just keep the happy family kind of fact that that suits me.

728
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:57.000
One of the, one of the things people don't talk about is the impact that your success has on everyone else back in Donkaster, including your mum.

729
00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.000
I spoke to your sister, Lottie, when my team did.

730
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.000
And I was listening to the recordings.

731
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:06.000
And she said that it was especially hard for your mum because you leave home suddenly at 18 years old.

732
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:09.000
And from everything you've described, you're more than just a kid.

733
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:14.000
And you were, in some respects, a partner in raising the family.

734
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:15.000
And best mates as well, mum.

735
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:16.000
Yeah, definitely.

736
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:19.000
Did you ever speak to you about the impact that had on her and all of that?

737
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:21.000
That's the thing that I remember really clearly.

738
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.000
And she used to do the university analogy.

739
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.000
And she used to say, I knew you were going to leave home at some point.

740
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:31.000
But I had at least a time scale to that.

741
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:34.000
I could like work towards my head okay, you know, with three months time,

742
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:37.000
it's going to leave for uni and that's that.

743
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.000
One direction never happened like that, you know.

744
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:42.000
It all ran away with itself.

745
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:45.000
So I think we felt like we all blinked and before we knew it,

746
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:47.000
I was no longer living at home.

747
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:50.000
So my mum had no time to even grieve the idea of like,

748
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:54.000
and just for context, I mentioned this in, I made a, like a film and documentary.

749
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:57.000
And it kind of sums up me and my mum's relationship perfectly.

750
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:01.000
The first person I told when I lost my virginity was my mum.

751
00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:04.000
Like I was, as if I was telling like, what am I like mate?

752
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.000
I was just, and I wasn't telling her for any other reason over the show off.

753
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:10.000
And be like, guess what happened to me?

754
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.000
And that, that, we definitely had that kind of energy together, you know.

755
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:18.000
We, we, I always, always saw her more as the best friend than anything else.

756
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:22.000
And especially because I was her first, she had me when she was 19.

757
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:27.000
We spent the first few years together without a male role model.

758
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:30.000
So it was a little deeper than your average, you know,

759
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.000
son and mother situation.

760
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.000
So I think it really hit me mum like a ton of breaks.

761
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:41.000
If I had my time again, I would have been more present and aware of those kind of ideas.

762
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:44.000
And I actually, here's a story actually.

763
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:47.000
I don't, I've never told Daisy and Phoebe this.

764
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:51.000
Daisy and Phoebe are two of my sisters who are identical twins.

765
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:55.000
And they're about four or five years younger than Lotys. They're about 21.

766
00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:58.000
Now, I could always tell them apart perfectly,

767
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:02.000
but they look utterly identical to these two, especially when they were really young.

768
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:06.000
And I can remember the more time I spent at the band, the more time I went away from home.

769
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.000
I wasn't confident enough to use their name to them.

770
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:13.000
You know, it'll be always like a babe or like, you know, something that I wouldn't have to mention the name.

771
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:16.000
Because I wasn't certain who was who.

772
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.000
These are two sisters that I spent my life with and grew up with.

773
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:25.000
But I think shows just how little I was at home.

774
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:30.000
And if my mom would come out to see me, which was great, but other, you know, the kids at school and stuff like that.

775
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:35.000
So there was a long time for those out of those five years were in the band.

776
00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:40.000
A long time spent not spending enough time with family.

777
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:46.000
And that I would say that is that was 85% the job and the situation and one direction and stuff.

778
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:51.000
And then 15% me too. Like I could definitely have done more like that.

779
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:57.000
But you know, when you, when you live in a life like we didn't one direction, free time is so competitive.

780
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:03.000
And when you're young, you're not smart enough to realize the value of this family time.

781
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:11.000
And you were on an absolute rocket ship up until you sort of, we must mean what sort of 23, 24 years old when the band origin announces

782
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:18.000
that it's breaking the parts of your march that year. Zane says he wants to leave to have a normal 22 year olds life which shocked the world.

783
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:25.000
How do you reflect on Zane's decision now? Cause we, we pissed off at the time that he was breaking things up or I was few really.

784
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:35.000
I was again, it's not something we've discussed enough yet, but me and Zane, I mean, but again, it comes back to like loyalty for me.

785
00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:44.000
And I just selfishly, I'd wish did had a conversation with me first. Cause me and Zane, I'd like to think that he would say this too.

786
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:51.000
There was times where like we were like, let's put it like this is a good way of describing it.

787
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:58.000
On the last tour that Zane did, we always said we would never be this band, the type of band that would have all their own individual dressing rooms.

788
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:03.000
Well, sometimes when you got a lot of guests and stuff, it can be challenging, but we always said we wouldn't be that band.

789
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:08.000
And on the last tour, Zane did, Harry had his own dressing room, Liam did, Nile did, and me and Zane shared.

790
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:14.000
So I think I kind of like testament of the relationship. So I felt a little bit hard done by.

791
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:20.000
I felt like, like, not like throw these boys under the boss, but let me know, but I just a little bit.

792
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:25.000
I thought that we had a relationship where he could have had that conversation with me.

793
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:30.000
In reflection, and he hasn't told me this, we'll see when I chat to him about it.

794
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.000
But I think if he told me I would have tried, I would have tried to tell him to stay.

795
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:39.000
And I think that's probably one of the reasons why he didn't, because he knew I was always very opinionated.

796
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:42.000
So how did you find out that evening?

797
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:47.000
The night before we found out, everything was normal. We're in the hotel room.

798
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:53.000
We were somewhere, I don't know where, somewhere in the world, maybe where we'd, isn't legal, but we were having a joint.

799
00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:59.000
And everything was normal, you know, and then I think he maybe left at like 11.

800
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:03.000
He was cool, wasn't like in a bad mood or anything like that, you know, good night lad.

801
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:08.000
And then next month I woke up, we had a shoot with like Coca-Cola for some sponsor thing.

802
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:12.000
And we found out that he wasn't coming.

803
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:16.000
Now, I had this in me too, but like Zane was quite prolific for it.

804
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:19.000
Like this wasn't out the ordinary. Like if Zane, I always rated him for it.

805
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:23.000
If he didn't want to do something, like he literally wouldn't do it.

806
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:29.000
Like you name the thing, it doesn't matter. He just, he just, if he doesn't, if it's not right for him, then he won't do it.

807
00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:35.000
So I think, well, that's probably why he left the band, you know, and that's what I admire about him.

808
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:43.000
Because if I was in his same situation, I would have probably put six clusters on it, just to hold that we can stay playing happy families, you know.

809
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:55.000
I want to know if he regrets it. Not in the way that, like he, his own personal success has been incredibly successful and he's done really, really well like that.

810
00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:01.000
But he must miss it. Like he must do because I know Zane really well.

811
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:09.000
And Zane has a bit of that kind of energy I do in such a way that sometimes this whole job can just be a little bit fussy.

812
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.000
It's just a bit fussy in general, you know, there's just a lot going on like that.

813
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:18.000
Now, when you're in the band, you can share that wealth. It's like, you know, say you're sat in an interview, you're not enjoying.

814
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:22.000
You just kind of shun up a little bit and let someone else pick up the pieces and they'll do that role.

815
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:25.000
We could share the things that we didn't like to do as much.

816
00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:29.000
So there must definitely be times that he misses the comfort of that for sure.

817
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:34.000
But it's kind of like the elephant in the room to be honest. It's not, I've met up with him a couple of times recently,

818
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:38.000
but it's not often something we'll just score. But there'll be a time for that for sure.

819
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:41.000
I would like to have those conversations with them.

820
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:44.000
But it crushed me, man. It absolutely crushed me.

821
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:48.000
I was devastated because it felt like always this the beginning of the end of the band.

822
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:53.000
But then also I'm like, this is like me best mate in the band at the time.

823
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:57.000
So it was I'd lost a friend and somewhat in the band.

824
00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:01.000
Funny, you know, I've heard you say that you weren't prepared for the success of one direction,

825
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:03.000
but you also weren't prepared for the end of one direction.

826
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:04.000
Oh, no.

827
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.000
And you've described it as hitting you like a ton of bricks.

828
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.000
Yeah, it was awful.

829
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:12.000
It wasn't until after the event that I realized that I actually computed all these feelings,

830
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:16.000
but it was like I was straight grieving for it. That was grieving the band.

831
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:20.000
I'm someone who unfortunately has a little bit of experiencing grief.

832
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.000
And albeit it felt different, but it was a version of the same thing.

833
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:27.000
It was something that I really wanted that couldn't have anymore.

834
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:31.000
I think like anything like that, you know, like if you're like an amiglass half full kind of guy.

835
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:37.000
So like I felt the wheel start to turn emotion like that, but you're looking the other way.

836
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:38.000
You're like, no, it's fine.

837
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:39.000
It's not going to play like that.

838
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:40.000
It's never going to come to that, whatever.

839
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.000
And then we had a meeting one day and it did.

840
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:46.000
What happens in that meeting?

841
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:47.000
What's said?

842
00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:49.000
Is it Simon saying something?

843
00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:50.000
Is it the boys?

844
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:51.000
Is it representatives?

845
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:54.000
It was us boys, which was great.

846
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:57.000
Always how it should be like that, obviously.

847
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:03.000
I think it almost might as well have been representatives.

848
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:08.000
What's really fascinating is those real serious moments.

849
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:10.000
We wouldn't have a lot of them in one direction.

850
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:11.000
We would just kind of go with the flow.

851
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:14.000
I'm really happy, you know, for each other and stuff like that.

852
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:18.000
But I think those kind of moments where you have to be selfish.

853
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.000
It was an atmosphere that never really felt in the band.

854
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:23.000
Because normally like I said, arms and arms and arms.

855
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000
It's all this camaraderie.

856
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:27.000
And all of a sudden you get someone thinking more independently and more for themselves,

857
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:30.000
which by the way they have every right to do, of course.

858
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.000
But it just felt the room felt cold that day.

859
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:35.000
I can remember that in particular.

860
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:38.000
I'm trying to find the right metaphor for it.

861
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:43.000
But it was something where these are all the same faces that I've seen every single day.

862
00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:46.000
But I've never quite felt an energy like that in the room.

863
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:49.000
There was this emptiness.

864
00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:52.000
And I think probably because we knew, we all knew,

865
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.000
collect to do where it was going.

866
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:58.000
You know, and that's probably some friction between those ideas.

867
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:01.000
The thing that really bothered me was, and this again is naive,

868
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:03.000
was so naive at the time.

869
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:06.000
But I was adamant on having some kind of indication of,

870
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:09.000
because it was originally said as,

871
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:12.000
what's that fucking word we've used a million times, hiatus.

872
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:13.000
Yeah.

873
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:16.000
It's by the way, it's just such a cringey word.

874
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:18.000
So it was originally pictures that.

875
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:20.000
So I was thinking, I remember saying like,

876
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:22.000
well, if I want to try and do some stuff on my own,

877
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:24.000
and at this point, I'd even know what I was going to do.

878
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:27.000
I'd be good to know how long this breaks going to be for.

879
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:32.000
So let's speculate a year, two years, five years, ten years, 15 years.

880
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.000
I never really got an answer to that question,

881
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:36.000
which I understand now.

882
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:40.000
Because, truthfully, I don't think the people or person involved

883
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:43.000
was brave enough to answer that question deep down.

884
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.000
I think they probably knew the reality.

885
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:46.000
That's why it was tough.

886
00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:49.000
And does Simon try and persuade you back into the band?

887
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:52.000
Let me say that by this point,

888
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:54.000
and I'd say Simon was aware of this,

889
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:56.000
but maybe not quite so aware.

890
00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:00.000
Because we're a band, after about two years of one direction,

891
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.000
nobody, absolutely nobody could tell us shit.

892
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:05.000
Now, we wouldn't, we were nice boys,

893
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.000
we were never like rude or anything like that,

894
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.000
but like, so like, if Simon,

895
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:11.000
it's like, we didn't have that, he wasn't.

896
00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:13.000
He might have had that relationship prior,

897
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:16.000
like, back in the night, he's when all that stuff was kind of prevalent,

898
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:20.000
but I think we'd always had our own kind of confidence like that.

899
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:23.000
So he was never involved in those kind of decision-makings.

900
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:26.000
In fact, he was smart enough to realise that that would rub us up the wrong way.

901
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:28.000
Makes sense.

902
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:30.000
And then it ends.

903
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:35.000
And your life goes from absolutely crazy to less crazy.

904
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.000
Yeah, it's something,

905
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:40.000
it's still something that I'm unpacking, still to be honest,

906
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:43.000
still trying to work out all of those kind of things.

907
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.000
I remember, so I just spoke about before,

908
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:48.000
but Julian Bonetta, who is a producer,

909
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:50.000
who worked on a lot of the one direction stuff,

910
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:52.000
we had a great relationship with him, really cool guy.

911
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:54.000
We had this crazy night,

912
00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:58.000
it was like some kind of billboard awards in Vegas.

913
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:00.000
Julian, he pulled me aside and he said,

914
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:02.000
and it was like, really, he's funny,

915
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:04.000
because he's not really like this heavy,

916
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:05.000
but it's a real heavy statement.

917
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:07.000
Obviously, I had a few vocaboles or something.

918
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:11.000
And he was like, where do we go from here?

919
00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:13.000
Now, by the way, we upset me a little bit.

920
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:16.000
It's like, I understand that, and we are all in this together,

921
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000
but that question is a hell of a lot deeper for me than it is you.

922
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:21.000
I understand, I get it, but at the same time,

923
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:23.000
you're probably, and what he did,

924
00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:25.000
and what he's doing is carrying on doing what he did.

925
00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:28.000
And I still don't really know the answer to that question.

926
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.000
And I still, in fact, maybe I don't think you can.

927
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.000
I think a lot of people's, not everyone's,

928
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:36.000
but most people's natural trajectory of,

929
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:37.000
let's just call it success.

930
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:39.000
I could make a pedantic argument for it,

931
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:40.000
not being specifically that.

932
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:42.000
But, you know, they have a kind of linear journey,

933
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:45.000
they older they get, they're more successful than they get.

934
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:48.000
What was really strange was being 24 years old

935
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:51.000
and realizing that the only way is down from it.

936
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:54.000
Like, there is no alternative reality

937
00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:59.000
where I at least keep all, or supersede, no way.

938
00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:00.000
There was no chance of that.

939
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:03.000
And that wasn't, you know, it was very obvious.

940
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:04.000
It was very obvious.

941
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.000
It was very obvious to anyone around there.

942
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:10.000
And Stanley is something that is challenging, definitely,

943
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:13.000
because you've had a look behind the curtain, you know?

944
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:16.000
You know, now these, those some of the things

945
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:20.000
that maybe I had then that I don't have now,

946
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:23.000
you know, I'm not overly pressed for,

947
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:26.000
like, I don't know, like a billboard for the album

948
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:29.000
on in LA, or here in New York.

949
00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:31.000
I don't get those kind of opportunities anymore.

950
00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:34.000
Do I lose any sleep over it? No, no, not really.

951
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.000
But I think the feeling in general of,

952
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:41.000
I have to work really hard to be, to, to compete

953
00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:42.000
at the level I do.

954
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:43.000
Like, that is just a fact.

955
00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:45.000
Like, I just got a number one record

956
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:47.000
and the last record in the future,

957
00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:49.000
never in a million years, never in a million years.

958
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.000
When I started my solo career, did I ever think

959
00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:54.000
that I would be getting a number one record?

960
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:56.000
It's testament to my fans, testament to the record,

961
00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:57.000
the producers, et cetera.

962
00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:00.000
But I've always had to work on my own anyway.

963
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:02.000
I always felt like I've had to work really, really hard,

964
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.000
just to kind of keep my head above water.

965
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:06.000
Now, the reality of that statement is,

966
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.000
and I realized that as I say it out loud,

967
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:11.000
my version of head out of water, or head above water,

968
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:13.000
is very different to a lot of people,

969
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.000
because from 18s to 24, that whole landscape

970
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:17.000
looked very, very different.

971
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:19.000
And that's why I've always found it quite unrealistic

972
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:23.000
to, like, not, like, to not compare the two,

973
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:24.000
I completely agree with that,

974
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:26.000
because you cannot compare them,

975
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:29.000
the two being one direction of my own solo career.

976
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000
But it's something that you can't ignore.

977
00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:35.000
I did a cover, I stupid of me to call it a cover.

978
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:36.000
I realized that was funny.

979
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:37.000
That is, when I do a one direction song,

980
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:39.000
I call it a cover, which is really ironic.

981
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:42.000
But I do night changes on my tour show.

982
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:44.000
And I remember this one show in particular.

983
00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:47.000
I think it was, like, a 5,000 capacity room.

984
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:50.000
And I think maybe we'd done, like, 1200 tickets,

985
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:53.000
which, you know, is okay. That's all right.

986
00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:57.000
But when you're singing night changes, it gig like that,

987
00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:03.000
when you can vividly and visually remember singing night changes

988
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:06.000
like that at, say, Wembley Stadium.

989
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.000
And you're literally singing,

990
00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:09.000
look how fast the night changes.

991
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:11.000
And you're looking out to this sparse room.

992
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:14.000
It's like a brew or kind of poetry.

993
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:16.000
And that's the point about being unrealistic.

994
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:20.000
I could be the most, and I am.

995
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:23.000
I could be the most glass half full guy in the world.

996
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:26.000
But life is going to constantly challenge me like that.

997
00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:30.000
Definitely because that was the pinnacle.

998
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.000
Yeah, I am.

999
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:34.000
I mean, it's very, very human.

1000
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000
Obviously, the example in scenario you're talking about

1001
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.000
is one no one can understand.

1002
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:40.000
But the comparison is how we work.

1003
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:42.000
It's how we understand the value of things.

1004
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:46.000
And as you say, going to the top of man Everest

1005
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:50.000
at 24 means that you're going to have some kind of sort of

1006
00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:53.000
even unconscious comparison to everything there after.

1007
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:54.000
What do you do about that?

1008
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:57.000
Do you have to use a different yardstick of measurement?

1009
00:49:57.000 --> 00:49:58.000
I try to.

1010
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.000
These are words, aren't they?

1011
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:01.000
That's it.

1012
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:03.000
And some days I live by it.

1013
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:04.000
Some days I live by it definitely.

1014
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:06.000
I wrote something on my social media,

1015
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:08.000
probably like four or five years ago now.

1016
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:10.000
But it was on Instagram, I think.

1017
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:13.000
And about my interpretation of the word success

1018
00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:15.000
because I'd spent a long time

1019
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:18.000
and I owning you through the lens of one direction.

1020
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:20.000
And I think that's a constant battle.

1021
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:22.000
It's a constant conversation with myself.

1022
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.000
And certainly that I can measure my own success

1023
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:26.000
in a different way.

1024
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:28.000
It doesn't have to be a numbers game, you know.

1025
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:31.000
In terms of like fulfillment, for example.

1026
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:34.000
And like, you know, going do it like this latest record

1027
00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:35.000
that I've just written.

1028
00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:37.000
Like I feel really, really good about it.

1029
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:39.000
There's been an element of me kind of swimming against

1030
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:41.000
the tide a little bit to this point.

1031
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:42.000
It's like that.

1032
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.000
The feeling of fulfillment is like that's legit.

1033
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:47.000
Did you have conversations with your former bandmates

1034
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:49.000
about how they were coping with these?

1035
00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:50.000
Yeah, yeah.

1036
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:51.000
It's all different.

1037
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:53.000
To be honest, that would only happen mainly.

1038
00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:55.000
And like between the other boys,

1039
00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:57.000
like not that it's not like emotional

1040
00:50:57.000 --> 00:50:58.000
because like it is.

1041
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:00.000
And it's definitely deeper in surface level.

1042
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:03.000
But it's more...

1043
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:05.000
It's more...

1044
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:08.000
I would struggle to take through the boys as much.

1045
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:09.000
I mean, just...

1046
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.000
I would love to hang out with them in person like that.

1047
00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:12.000
But I just...

1048
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:15.000
There's an element of it feeling...

1049
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:18.000
It's just all a bit small talk, you know.

1050
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:19.000
Which is lovely and it's nice.

1051
00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:20.000
And it's nice to catch up on that.

1052
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:23.000
But me and them would always speak on a much more deep level.

1053
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:24.000
Because...

1054
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:26.000
And like he definitely...

1055
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:30.000
I felt bad saying this because I feel arrogant but I shouldn't.

1056
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:33.000
I wanted to look after him definitely there.

1057
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:34.000
Like that was...

1058
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:36.000
That was like a role.

1059
00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:38.000
I feel like I was there to play.

1060
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:41.000
And like he definitely, you know, often his...

1061
00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:44.000
The way he would like perceive certain parts of his life.

1062
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:47.000
I would be really inspired by like he was someone who...

1063
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:48.000
Really brave at times.

1064
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:51.000
Which, like, contrary to sometimes what he put out.

1065
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:52.000
But really, really brave.

1066
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.000
Like he would ask anyone anything with a smile.

1067
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:58.000
And like, you know, he had a really good way about it and like that.

1068
00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:01.000
I would say he was the closest to being my brother.

1069
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:02.000
Love him deeply.

1070
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:04.000
Could spend hours and hours and hours with him.

1071
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.000
But there was an element of...

1072
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:08.000
Always checking in.

1073
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:11.000
And just making sure that like he's cool like that.

1074
00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:13.000
Did you worry about him?

1075
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:14.000
Always.

1076
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000
Yeah.

1077
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:20.000
Could be cause...

1078
00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:22.000
Because I knew he was a little misunderstood.

1079
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:29.000
But also, you know, like interestingly the record.

1080
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:35.000
When you start out as a solo artist, the parallels of...

1081
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.000
People who know themselves made the best records.

1082
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:39.000
Definitely.

1083
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:43.000
So like if you're still unpacking all that information of who you are as a person as an adult,

1084
00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:48.000
which we all were opposed to one direction, it's not impossible to point and go,

1085
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:50.000
this is who I want to be as an artist.

1086
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:52.000
Because essentially it's just a metaphor for who you are as a person,

1087
00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:54.000
at least the best of it.

1088
00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:58.000
Liam would be someone who candidly I could say to him really honestly, like, bro,

1089
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:01.000
fucking hell, I miss being in the band.

1090
00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:04.000
And we could like have a really honest conversation like that.

1091
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:05.000
Whereas...

1092
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:10.000
And I don't mean this in any kind of way.

1093
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:13.000
But if I'd said that to any of the boys, I'd be worried that they might think,

1094
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:16.000
oh, things aren't going well in this solo life, you know.

1095
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:19.000
Whereas Liam, I never had to worry about those things.

1096
00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:20.000
It was...

1097
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.000
It was like brothers like that.

1098
00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:23.000
He was heartless, sleeve didn't he?

1099
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.000
So Liam was Liam.

1100
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000
Yeah, definitely.

1101
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:27.000
And I just...

1102
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:29.000
It's really fresh that.

1103
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:31.000
It's a really, really cool way of living.

1104
00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:34.000
Because we all say, even like I would like to say, I wear my heartless sleeve.

1105
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:36.000
But you know, there's still 10% of me.

1106
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:37.000
It's guard in the right places.

1107
00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:39.000
He'd certainly had his...

1108
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:41.000
His way of being, I like to.

1109
00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:42.000
I do...

1110
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:46.000
Whereas we were saying, I do wonder if that made him slightly more susceptible to...

1111
00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:48.000
The pressures.

1112
00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:50.000
Because sometimes, you know, if you can...

1113
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.000
If you can put on a second face, if you can't...

1114
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:54.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1115
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:56.000
What's helped me in this job.

1116
00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:59.000
And there's no truer time that that kind of shows itself.

1117
00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:01.000
It's me as a parent is...

1118
00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:02.000
There is a real distinction.

1119
00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:03.000
This is me...

1120
00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:04.000
There is me at work.

1121
00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:06.000
And there is me not at work, basically.

1122
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:10.000
So either being a parent or being a friend or a partner or whatever.

1123
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:13.000
That's always helped me to have that kind of distinction of...

1124
00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:16.000
You know, when I'm dad to Freddie...

1125
00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:19.000
I'm full-time dad and I'm not singer, you know.

1126
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:22.000
And any of that world outside does not really matter.

1127
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:25.000
It's not relevant to me as a father, which isn't.

1128
00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:29.000
Did I ever tell you about the data breach that we had at my previous company?

1129
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:31.000
Yeah, I remember hearing about that.

1130
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:33.000
Which was a total nightmare.

1131
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:35.000
So I'm glad that we now use one password.

1132
00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:36.000
What are shades of steam?

1133
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:38.000
It's called one password.

1134
00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:40.000
And they're the sponsor of the podcast now.

1135
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:42.000
And they have this feature called enterprise password manager,

1136
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:46.000
which means that if any of our passwords across the team are compromised or leaked,

1137
00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:47.000
then it notifies us.

1138
00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:49.000
And obviously, if that were to be the case,

1139
00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:51.000
we're at huge risk across the entire team.

1140
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:55.000
Through one password, EPM, you can also store all of your sensitive information.

1141
00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:58.000
And it's helping us to move closer towards past keys,

1142
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:01.000
which means eventually everybody will be able to log in to pretty much everything

1143
00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:03.000
without ever having to put a password in.

1144
00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:04.000
Sounds like a good addition.

1145
00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:08.000
Yeah, I think it's like the single most impactful security addition you can make to your team,

1146
00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:12.000
especially if your team has tons of passwords that are all like hidden in Excel files and stuff.

1147
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:17.000
To my listeners, if you want to secure your business, head to onepassword.com slash D-O-A-C,

1148
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:19.000
one password is a game changer.

1149
00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.000
It's the future that I always wished would be the case,

1150
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:26.000
as someone that has, you know, 20, 30 different passwords for 20, 30 different applications.

1151
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:31.000
I asked my assistant, so if you define your reliable security system for a new place in LA,

1152
00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:35.000
what she discovered is that most available options have the same issue.

1153
00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.000
They're reactive and only take action after someone has broken into your house.

1154
00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.000
Simply say, if who sponsors this show has a completely different approach,

1155
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:45.000
if someone's lurking near your home or office,

1156
00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:51.000
their AI powered cameras detect them, then human agents who act like a remote security guard take action,

1157
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:55.000
speaking directly to the intruder, letting them know they're being watched on camera,

1158
00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:59.000
and if necessary, triggering a siren or spotlight to scare them off.

1159
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:02.000
Or they can call 911 for police dispatch.

1160
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:04.000
This immediate response is why I went with SimplySafe.

1161
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:07.000
No one else approaches security in the same way,

1162
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:10.000
but they have no long-term contracts or hidden fees,

1163
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:12.000
so you can cancel at any time.

1164
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:14.000
They also have a 60-day money back guarantee.

1165
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:18.000
My audience can say 50% on a SimplySafe home security system,

1166
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.000
at simplysafe.com slash D-O-A-C.

1167
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.000
That is simplysafe.com slash D-O-A-C.

1168
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:27.000
There's no safe, like a SimplySafe.

1169
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:31.000
I've never found more photographs of a person's life in my life.

1170
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:33.000
I mean...

1171
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:35.000
Hugh, nice little denim jacket.

1172
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:37.000
What do you think when you see that photo?

1173
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:40.000
It looks like it reminds me of a nice time.

1174
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:41.000
This one?

1175
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:43.000
Yeah, I remember that vividly.

1176
00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:48.000
We did like a full photo shoot in my living room.

1177
00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:52.000
Yeah, quite a lot of the pose with the hands and the pockets.

1178
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:55.000
It's much more nonchalant than I would have actually been feeling.

1179
00:56:55.000 --> 00:56:58.000
I mean, these ones are all the band photos.

1180
00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:00.000
I mean, it's just, I can unbelievable,

1181
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:04.000
like looking at some of the crowds on these images is insanity.

1182
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:06.000
Oh, yeah, this...

1183
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:07.000
My mum took this picture.

1184
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:10.000
This was the first picture I've ever taken of as a mum took this.

1185
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.000
You look super young.

1186
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000
Yeah, yeah.

1187
00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:14.000
Again, yeah.

1188
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:19.000
So I was the oldest 18, then you got the Harry Liam and now they were 16, saying 17.

1189
00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:21.000
And of course, you're...

1190
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:23.000
Yeah, I love that picture.

1191
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:27.000
It kind of really sums up my and Liam's relationship.

1192
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:28.000
I love it.

1193
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:29.000
I love it.

1194
00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:32.000
He will have told me a joke that I didn't think was like hilarious at the time.

1195
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:34.000
So I'll be giving him that kind of face.

1196
00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:37.000
And then probably about an hour later, I would have laughed to myself about it.

1197
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:42.000
And I have these beautiful pictures of your beautiful mother.

1198
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:43.000
Oh, yeah.

1199
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:44.000
That lovely.

1200
00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:45.000
I love this one.

1201
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:46.000
I love this one.

1202
00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:47.000
This is cute.

1203
00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:48.000
Yeah.

1204
00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:56.000
Yeah, I've got a very similar picture to this Bami Bedside table at home, maybe a bedroom.

1205
00:57:56.000 --> 00:58:02.000
About a year after you leave One Direction, your mother passes away from leukemia.

1206
00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:09.000
Thinking about the timing of all these events, thinking about the shock of being thrown into a very different life,

1207
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:12.000
one without the boy band around you and then your mother getting leukemia,

1208
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:15.000
which people don't know is the 12th most common form of cancer.

1209
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:18.000
She passes away at age 42.

1210
00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:25.000
The timing of all these things is quite unthinkable to me, because there's so much transition in your life.

1211
00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:28.000
I'm just terribly sorry.

1212
00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:30.000
I appreciate you saying that.

1213
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:34.000
I don't really have anything else to say other than just understanding what she meant to you in the role she had in your life.

1214
00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:35.000
I'm terribly sorry.

1215
00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:41.000
There was definitely, as you said, the time in, obviously there's no good time for anything like this.

1216
00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:46.000
But I think the time in, that's what created a bit of, it didn't last too long.

1217
00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:52.000
I want to say maybe six months, but of like true resentment for the world, like real resentment.

1218
00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:00.000
She feeling really hard done by, you know, the kind of one thing I remember about grief when you're in the midst of it.

1219
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:03.000
You would stub your toe, right?

1220
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:07.000
And something like that is utterly unjust.

1221
00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:10.000
Now, that's the thing you might have done to none of this ever happened.

1222
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:13.000
You stubby toe, it'd be annoying, but you just get over it.

1223
00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:18.000
Little things like that are really, really struggled with when I was grieving.

1224
00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:24.000
So things that you should work a certain way that don't, there's a zip on my jacket that won't quite go all the way up.

1225
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:32.000
Real micro non-important little things, but I think because of the weight of the stuff that had happened,

1226
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:38.000
there was just, yeah, there was a moment in my life as I said for about six months where it just felt like I couldn't win.

1227
00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:41.000
In fact, I could only lose.

1228
00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:43.000
So that's where even just stubbing your toe.

1229
00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:45.000
You brought me another fucking thing.

1230
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:53.000
Now, it sounds stupid to say, but once you met with these, when you met with that kind of mindset of feeling hard done by,

1231
00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:55.000
the smallest things definitely can amplify that.

1232
00:59:55.000 --> 00:59:58.000
When did you hear that she was sick?

1233
00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:05.000
I got friendly with a footballer called Jamie Vardy and he'd invited me to his wedding.

1234
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:11.000
So I was at the wedding and now it was like the party afterwards and it was like 10 p.m.

1235
01:00:11.000 --> 01:00:16.000
At this point, I already had quite a few vodka balls, which was not ideal for the weight of the conversation.

1236
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:19.000
And I'm on call mail, I was stood outside.

1237
01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:23.000
It wouldn't have been out in the ordinary for anyone to call me so I wasn't worried or anything like that.

1238
01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:25.000
She called me like most days if not every day.

1239
01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:31.000
And then she told me and you know what it's like anything like this in life.

1240
01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:38.000
When you hear something like that carries any kind of weight, like the first 10 thoughts are either it can't be true.

1241
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:40.000
Maybe she's got it wrong.

1242
01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:42.000
Maybe the doctors have got it wrong.

1243
01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:51.000
Just all these stages of denial of before actually even embracing the thought.

1244
01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:54.000
It wasn't really, it wasn't kind of really like me.

1245
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:59.000
I didn't even feel like it was like a cry for help at the time, but that night I got absolutely battered.

1246
01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:02.000
I got really, really drunk.

1247
01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:08.000
That would be nice where you know this has been nice in the past where I'll have a little bit too much to drink.

1248
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:15.000
More from not knowing me limit, but in this kind of situation, it's not never really used drink for to be honest.

1249
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:21.000
But I just that was the thought the only way just to completely escape that moment in that in that at that night.

1250
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:29.000
What I found really challenging during even that first conversation with her about it was.

1251
01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:36.000
I still wanted to inspire hope I still wanted to like because she was really hopeful and she was like.

1252
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:43.000
So I was trying to have this like genuine worry that any sun would but I also was trying to shield a bit of my mom from that.

1253
01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:49.000
I didn't want her to you know feel like she'd upset me or you know even obviously it wasn't her choice.

1254
01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:54.000
But I can remember that idea of really trying to.

1255
01:01:54.000 --> 01:02:01.000
I would be real with my mom about how I was feeling, but there was times when I wouldn't be because I wouldn't want her to feel guilty.

1256
01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:03.000
So she told her over the phone that she'd had a diagnosis.

1257
01:02:03.000 --> 01:02:06.000
Yes, yes, she told me that she had leukemia.

1258
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:10.000
My first answer was I don't know where again, this is just like the definition of denial.

1259
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:15.000
My first answer word for word was, oh that's the good one to get though right.

1260
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:18.000
Meaning that has the most survival rate.

1261
01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:24.000
And blessed she has to be like, no, not really.

1262
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:28.000
And how long was it from that phone call to her passing?

1263
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:31.000
I have no idea. I could not.

1264
01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:34.000
I want my guess would be 18 months.

1265
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:37.000
I think it might have been quicker than that.

1266
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:41.000
The anniversary of her death.

1267
01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:46.000
I get texts all the time whenever the anniversary is and someone will say, thinking of you today.

1268
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:54.000
And it's only at that point that I know that that's the day because I just it's deleted from my brain.

1269
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:59.000
She passes because you don't have a biological father isn't around.

1270
01:02:59.000 --> 01:03:01.000
You're very much at that point.

1271
01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:04.000
You know, you're the.

1272
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:09.000
In some respects, you're the father of lots of siblings because you're your big brother.

1273
01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:15.000
You went out on stage three days after her death for an ex-factor performance.

1274
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:19.000
From what I understand from from Lotte,

1275
01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:24.000
she very much pushed you to do that before she passed away and told you that you.

1276
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:27.000
You needed to do that performance.

1277
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:30.000
I never forget the ex-factor.

1278
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:36.000
Final performance that he did with Steve Ayoki when my mom only passed away like a couple of days before,

1279
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:40.000
which I still can't believe he even had the strength to do.

1280
01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:46.000
But my mom was just so proud of him and especially him starting his solo career.

1281
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:51.000
In like her final days, she was like, if I don't make it, I still want you to do this performance.

1282
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:57.000
And when she did pass, we were like, there's no way no one would have expected him to do it.

1283
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.000
But he wanted to do it for her.

1284
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:03.000
And I knew, I knew exactly what that was.

1285
01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:05.000
I knew why she was telling me.

1286
01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:12.000
She was telling me because she would have hated something that she, something that happened to her,

1287
01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:16.000
effect my career and my life as a person.

1288
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:19.000
I would do it again for her.

1289
01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:25.000
I don't think I'll ever have a more challenging time in my life than those three and a half minutes on stage.

1290
01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:27.000
I did it only for her.

1291
01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:31.000
It's not something I look back on and go, I'm really proud.

1292
01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:36.000
I am proud that I did that, but that you almost say those kind of things when you want to do something.

1293
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:38.000
I'm really proud that I did that.

1294
01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:40.000
And it felt like it was taken out of my hands.

1295
01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:45.000
I didn't want her to have that girl, but it was the last thing in the world I want to do.

1296
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:48.000
Like obviously, I just, it was horrible.

1297
01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:53.000
And also the song alluded to, the song was called Just Hold On.

1298
01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:58.000
It's weird how empowering those moments are.

1299
01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:04.000
I can sit here now and comfortably say that the chance now, obviously, that could be,

1300
01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:10.000
the chances of my life being as dark as it was in those three minutes alone.

1301
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:15.000
Like I would be desperately unlucky to ever be in a situation like that again,

1302
01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:19.000
where it was, where I was so young, I was in a situation where, as you said,

1303
01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:23.000
all the time it was and then I felt like I'd, you know, been encouraged to go out and say,

1304
01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:26.000
but it wasn't really something that I did that I wanted to do.

1305
01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:31.000
It puts everything into perspective, you know, so like, like nothing's going to get as hard as that.

1306
01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:37.000
I think it, there's times where my job will weigh me down even like today, you know, not today, but I mean in this current head.

1307
01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:44.000
And it's just with, it helps me remember and how to put things into perspective that, you know,

1308
01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:50.000
just because a radio station isn't playing my single, you know, that hurts,

1309
01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:55.000
not point, not, not, not, not, 1% the same as something like that.

1310
01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:02.000
So I think because I was so challenged emotionally and I, I, I survived the experience,

1311
01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:06.000
it's given me a weird kind of confidence, to be honest.

1312
01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:14.000
It's just knowing that life probably won't get that dark again.

1313
01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:19.000
You'd sometimes don't realize that the role that your parents were playing until they're not around,

1314
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:22.000
that they were almost a sort of tectonic plate underneath everything,

1315
01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:25.000
was that, was that a realization at that point?

1316
01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:32.000
The time I, there was this true dependency on my mom that I did not realize until I'd,

1317
01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:34.000
until I'd lost me mom.

1318
01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:40.000
So I think there was definitely stuff that I've had to learn like being like on my own.

1319
01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:43.000
And often she would inspire confidence, you know, I'd say I'm worried about this.

1320
01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:47.000
I don't want to go to this audition or I don't want to do this or I'm worried about this song.

1321
01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:52.000
And she, like, you know, as she always did, maybe felt like I could do anything in the, in the planet.

1322
01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:56.000
And she'd actually made me feel stupid for even questioning the fact that I couldn't do anything.

1323
01:06:56.000 --> 01:07:01.000
You know, so I think there's moments like that where you have to, you've almost had to re-learn confidence like that.

1324
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:08.000
And how, how does, how does a young man grieve the loss of his mother at such a young age?

1325
01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:13.000
Everyone, obviously everyone, everyone's grief is completely individual.

1326
01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:15.000
So then I find out more recently.

1327
01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:17.000
Purpose was mine.

1328
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:23.000
Now this is again, not a luxury that everyone has in a situation like I found myself in.

1329
01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:29.000
I grieved and I, I, I had moments where I was deeply, deeply upset.

1330
01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:34.000
But these were fleeting moments because there was too much to do for my sisters.

1331
01:07:34.000 --> 01:07:36.000
There was too much to do for my dad and granddad.

1332
01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:41.000
There was too much to do for me family where it gave me something to do.

1333
01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:43.000
It gave me a true purpose.

1334
01:07:43.000 --> 01:07:49.000
It gave me a reason in the darkest days to get out of bed and confidently get out of bed.

1335
01:07:49.000 --> 01:07:52.000
Because I had, there was stuff that needed to be done.

1336
01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:56.000
And at that time, my sisters were so, so, so young.

1337
01:07:56.000 --> 01:08:00.000
I was so terrified of what kind of effect that would have on them, you know, growing up.

1338
01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:02.000
And luckily, they impressed me every day.

1339
01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:04.000
They're amazing, amazing women.

1340
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:10.000
My role felt like the, the strong one in that situation.

1341
01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:16.000
And someone who's willing to give someone, you know, day's-eared call means to be really upset.

1342
01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:21.000
And by the end of the call, she can just see the glimpse of a glass half full.

1343
01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:23.000
That was my job, you know.

1344
01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:32.000
The grief became less relevant because of the need to look after everyone else.

1345
01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:38.000
Like, sometimes you might ask, like, you know, what advice would you give to people with grief?

1346
01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:44.000
It's just an impossible question to answer just because, like, I'm still, I'm still feeling it.

1347
01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:48.000
Like, you could, you could, and the interesting thing about that is you could spend two weeks with me

1348
01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:50.000
and you never knew me and you never knew my life story.

1349
01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:52.000
Never any million years would you think, so I don't carry myself like that.

1350
01:08:52.000 --> 01:08:57.000
I'm not someone who's like down the dumps like that, but it's still there, you know.

1351
01:08:57.000 --> 01:08:59.000
It's, it will never go away.

1352
01:08:59.000 --> 01:09:01.000
What are the symptoms of it still being there?

1353
01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:09.000
There is like this air of, I suppose air of unpredictable, this feeling of,

1354
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:13.000
and that's sometimes where my positivity comes from too.

1355
01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:15.000
Like, things could change tomorrow.

1356
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:19.000
So I suppose that is, and that kind of jeopardy and that kind of idea.

1357
01:09:19.000 --> 01:09:21.000
That's how I would interpret it.

1358
01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:27.000
And because for any grief that I've experienced, it has been relatively quick.

1359
01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:31.000
I haven't really had a lot of time to compute these kind of ideas.

1360
01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:35.000
Does that create a certain anxiety with life in a certain worry for life that, you know,

1361
01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:39.000
if the foundations are uncertain and bad news can arrive at any moment, one would, you know,

1362
01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:43.000
that seems like the breeding ground of worry and anxiety.

1363
01:09:43.000 --> 01:09:47.000
I actually wrote that down earlier because when we were speaking earlier, you said,

1364
01:09:47.000 --> 01:09:51.000
I wasn't a worryer back then when you were talking about your childhood.

1365
01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:55.000
Yeah, I didn't used to be a worryer.

1366
01:09:55.000 --> 01:09:57.000
I'm sure most people can say that, right?

1367
01:09:57.000 --> 01:10:01.000
Your worry, your worry levels, or at least for most people are,

1368
01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:04.000
you have less worry when you're younger, you know.

1369
01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:08.000
You haven't quite understood all your emotions yet, really.

1370
01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:10.000
Do you have anxiety? Did you just trouble with it?

1371
01:10:10.000 --> 01:10:13.000
It's like, yeah, I experienced it all the time.

1372
01:10:13.000 --> 01:10:16.000
Is it something that kind of controls me?

1373
01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:19.000
No, you know, I'm sure you've heard about this.

1374
01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:24.000
My vocal coach chose you to say to me that the feeling of being anxious and excited

1375
01:10:24.000 --> 01:10:26.000
or near-identical and feeling.

1376
01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:30.000
And that was something that always kind of stuck with me, really,

1377
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:34.000
because not always, but like a lot of stuff that feels really good

1378
01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:37.000
can be quite intimidating beforehand, you know.

1379
01:10:37.000 --> 01:10:41.000
It was an anxiety that comes with doing something that is out of the ordinary, I suppose.

1380
01:10:41.000 --> 01:10:45.000
I can distinctly remember not so much now, but on the first tour,

1381
01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:48.000
like I would literally, before going out on stage,

1382
01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:51.000
I'd literally as futile and as ridiculous as it is.

1383
01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:54.000
I'd think to myself, how do I run away from this?

1384
01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:57.000
Like how could I literally run out the door and not do the gig?

1385
01:10:57.000 --> 01:10:59.000
So maybe that would be a version of anxiety,

1386
01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:02.000
but it didn't stop me getting up there and doing that, I suppose.

1387
01:11:02.000 --> 01:11:03.000
Maybe there's the difference.

1388
01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:05.000
A couple years after the passing of your mother,

1389
01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:09.000
you lose your younger sister Felicity.

1390
01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:13.000
And the circumstances of her death are

1391
01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:16.000
deeply, deeply tragic.

1392
01:11:16.000 --> 01:11:19.000
While speaking to several people in your life around you,

1393
01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:23.000
they talked about how you had done so much since the passing of your mother

1394
01:11:23.000 --> 01:11:26.000
to support your sisters, how you'd really taken on the role

1395
01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:30.000
as being the quote unquote head of the family is what they told me.

1396
01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:34.000
And the tragedy is deepened by the fact that she's 18 years old at the time.

1397
01:11:34.000 --> 01:11:39.000
Again, an unthinkable tragedy for one person to go through in their life,

1398
01:11:39.000 --> 01:11:43.000
but for you to go through two of these things in succession is,

1399
01:11:43.000 --> 01:11:45.000
I mean, I don't have the words.

1400
01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:48.000
Yeah, that was kind of what I was speaking up before.

1401
01:11:48.000 --> 01:11:51.000
That moment I've stubborn you to and that kind of aggravating you.

1402
01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:55.000
That was just like that idea accentuated.

1403
01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:59.000
I just couldn't believe, I couldn't believe how deeply unlucky I've been as a family.

1404
01:11:59.000 --> 01:12:06.000
It was just now, you know, maybe it's not overly uncommon.

1405
01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:08.000
People that you lose parents young.

1406
01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:13.000
And obviously she got to deal with it a bit at the time.

1407
01:12:13.000 --> 01:12:17.000
I felt angry at life.

1408
01:12:17.000 --> 01:12:21.000
And I felt angry mostly on behalf of my family.

1409
01:12:21.000 --> 01:12:25.000
Now, it wouldn't be, like obviously I would know that I was included in this idea,

1410
01:12:25.000 --> 01:12:30.000
but I wouldn't be thinking what have I done to deserve this.

1411
01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:33.000
It was more daisy and feverish so young.

1412
01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:36.000
They've already had so and lot'sy as well.

1413
01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:38.000
Already had so much to deal with.

1414
01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:41.000
Why this and why now?

1415
01:12:41.000 --> 01:12:46.000
It just, it just, it was, it did feel incredibly, incredibly unfair.

1416
01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:49.000
That's something that's interesting about grief.

1417
01:12:49.000 --> 01:12:54.000
It's just how different each thing feels.

1418
01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:57.000
It definitely hit me in a different way.

1419
01:12:57.000 --> 01:13:00.000
It was completely sudden and immediate.

1420
01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:06.000
I, again, one of the most challenging moments in my life,

1421
01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:13.000
the, so I sat in my house in London and everything was like fine.

1422
01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:18.000
I was a little bit worried, I've been worried about, for the month's prior.

1423
01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:23.000
As I was worried about all my sisters and I was just sat in my room, smoking a joint,

1424
01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:25.000
thinking about anything really.

1425
01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:30.000
And then the doorbell rang at like one in the morning or something.

1426
01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:34.000
Or maybe like midnight.

1427
01:13:34.000 --> 01:13:36.000
And I had this feeling come over me straight away.

1428
01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:43.000
And I'm not really this kind of guy where I'm, you know, and on another day,

1429
01:13:43.000 --> 01:13:46.000
I might have been worried that the police were coming to grab me weed.

1430
01:13:46.000 --> 01:13:47.000
But it wasn't like that.

1431
01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:50.000
I just had this thing come over me straight away and I knew it was bad.

1432
01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:53.000
I knew that, look, when someone rings your doorbell at that time,

1433
01:13:53.000 --> 01:13:56.000
it's not with really good news.

1434
01:13:56.000 --> 01:13:59.000
I saw it and then I opened the gates.

1435
01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:04.000
I've got these gates and I open the gates and I saw the police car and the policeman.

1436
01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:07.000
And then they told me that she passed away.

1437
01:14:07.000 --> 01:14:14.000
And I literally was like, okay, right.

1438
01:14:14.000 --> 01:14:17.000
I can't tell you why.

1439
01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:25.000
Because it was just, it was just, it was only me and my best friend and my ex-girlfriend at the time.

1440
01:14:25.000 --> 01:14:28.000
So it wasn't like a pride thing of me being like, okay, like I'm cool and fine.

1441
01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:34.000
I just, I think I didn't, I just, not only did I, was I in denial at that moment.

1442
01:14:34.000 --> 01:14:36.000
Like I just refused to even compute it.

1443
01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:38.000
It was just like, okay, cool.

1444
01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:41.000
And I remember shooting the door.

1445
01:14:41.000 --> 01:14:44.000
And then I told the people I'm in the house with.

1446
01:14:44.000 --> 01:14:47.000
And obviously then they, then they start crying.

1447
01:14:47.000 --> 01:14:54.000
And obviously then I think your brain starts catching up with you.

1448
01:14:54.000 --> 01:15:00.000
And something that was really, really tough for me at this moment in time.

1449
01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:05.000
And this is a stupid thing to say because I know that he was more than willing to be there for me.

1450
01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:09.000
But my best friend who I was living at the time who's here today.

1451
01:15:09.000 --> 01:15:12.000
I remember him saying, I'm just so sorry.

1452
01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:13.000
And he was crying his eyes out.

1453
01:15:13.000 --> 01:15:17.000
I was just like, I'm just so sorry, I'm so sorry.

1454
01:15:17.000 --> 01:15:23.000
I felt, I felt, I felt guilty that he felt like that.

1455
01:15:23.000 --> 01:15:26.000
I just stupid.

1456
01:15:26.000 --> 01:15:36.000
And so I'd said before about how this is, you know, me and my family are some of the characters in this story.

1457
01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:43.000
Often what's not spoke about in the name of grief is people like my best friend, then the role that they have to play.

1458
01:15:43.000 --> 01:15:45.000
Now these are not trained therapists.

1459
01:15:45.000 --> 01:15:49.000
These are not people who've had any kind of reference of this kind of pain.

1460
01:15:49.000 --> 01:15:53.000
And all you're doing is a best friend there is actually demanding.

1461
01:15:53.000 --> 01:16:03.000
I'll just praying, hoping that they give you something in return that will not change the reality, but just, you know, be there for you or whatever.

1462
01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:07.000
Nothing prepares you in life for those kind of situations.

1463
01:16:07.000 --> 01:16:12.000
That's something that I will forever, forever, ever be in debt to him for.

1464
01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:23.000
Because yes, you know, this is an unfathomable, it's a really impossible situation for me and my family to have found ourselves in.

1465
01:16:23.000 --> 01:16:30.000
But there are other people who play too, you know, and I can only imagine how hard that was.

1466
01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:34.000
And he knew how hard it was for me and how I just lost me more.

1467
01:16:34.000 --> 01:16:36.000
And there are no words, right?

1468
01:16:36.000 --> 01:16:40.000
I'm sure he's scrambling your brain trying to find the words and there isn't any.

1469
01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:52.000
Also, bear in mind everything that I've said before this, if I was to dumb my role down to like one thing in life, I'd maybe say like to look after people.

1470
01:16:52.000 --> 01:16:56.000
Well, like in the context of my sisters, the protector, right?

1471
01:16:56.000 --> 01:17:14.000
To lose me sister in the manner that we did, even though I knew that it wasn't fair on myself, like I felt utterly guilty, I felt powerless and I felt like I'd let me sister and let me mum down, really.

1472
01:17:15.000 --> 01:17:27.000
My mum said to me, like last couple of weeks of her life, she was like, you better promise me, you look after your sisters and I'm like, yeah, you know, of course, you know, I will.

1473
01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:32.000
And she was like specifically for listed, you know, she's fragile.

1474
01:17:33.000 --> 01:17:37.000
I felt like I failed at the time.

1475
01:17:37.000 --> 01:17:39.000
That's the truth.

1476
01:17:39.000 --> 01:17:45.000
I know now that I didn't, and if she was here now, she would say that you didn't.

1477
01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:47.000
But yeah, it doesn't change the feeling.

1478
01:17:47.000 --> 01:17:52.000
And that's, again, you know, that's always been a role I've played in the family.

1479
01:17:53.000 --> 01:18:03.000
And all I was trying to do, all I was trying to do after me mum was just put me in my sisters and my grandparents in a bubble and just thought, let's just nothing's going to get to us, you know.

1480
01:18:03.000 --> 01:18:12.000
So that, that, you know, that's like a really arrogant thing to say.

1481
01:18:12.000 --> 01:18:16.000
I mean, this more metaphorically, but it truly undermined me.

1482
01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:24.000
It undermined all the hope that it had, all these kind of ideas that I was instilling in post a life without our mum.

1483
01:18:24.000 --> 01:18:27.000
It just kind of undermined all those ideas.

1484
01:18:27.000 --> 01:18:32.000
It made it, it made it a lot more challenging for me to say them and feel them and believe them.

1485
01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:41.000
But it seemed with me sisters like, you know, so it just made everything obviously infinitely more difficult and difficult.

1486
01:18:41.000 --> 01:18:47.000
The only thing I'm thankful is that me mum wasn't around to see that because that would have been horrible for her.

1487
01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:52.000
You know, I actually learnt this from being around, funny enough, being around Liam.

1488
01:18:52.000 --> 01:19:04.000
When someone is struggling with their, with their own demons, per se, unless you've been around someone who's really struggling, you probably don't understand how helpless it often feels.

1489
01:19:04.000 --> 01:19:12.000
And in hindsight, it's, you know, someone that's not been in a situation thinks, well, you just, you just go over there and you sit with them and have dinner and then you fix it, you just stay.

1490
01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:18.000
But actually the reality of helping someone who's struggling is they often do things in private and secretly.

1491
01:19:18.000 --> 01:19:22.000
You referenced, you knew that Flisty was, was struggling with something.

1492
01:19:22.000 --> 01:19:26.000
Was, was that the passing of your mother that she was struggling with? Or was it live generally?

1493
01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:33.000
I think it was a bit of both. I think, I think obviously mum passing definitely amplified any of those things.

1494
01:19:33.000 --> 01:19:44.000
But I think with Flisty, she was one of these people that, she was Uber intelligent from a young age, really, really, really intelligent, which is ironic.

1495
01:19:44.000 --> 01:19:50.000
I'd say we're relatively smart family, but she was like in her own league, really, really intelligent woman.

1496
01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:58.000
I think that brought its own social frustration for her, definitely, you know, you hear these people that are intelligent from a young age.

1497
01:19:58.000 --> 01:20:04.000
She would always have felt like she was on the outside looking in, but only because of her intellect really.

1498
01:20:04.000 --> 01:20:13.000
And you know, that's tough for kids when they're younger, definitely, it's not something I can personally relate to, but I can imagine how that would be really alienating and tough.

1499
01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:18.000
It was probably the most like me mum.

1500
01:20:18.000 --> 01:20:27.000
So that, that, that, that, that also carried it some way because it felt, I'd say Flisty looked the most like my mum as well, like visually.

1501
01:20:27.000 --> 01:20:32.000
I mean, she was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

1502
01:20:32.000 --> 01:20:34.000
You look like each other to be honest.

1503
01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:37.000
Yeah, we do. I was used to get that when I was younger, people always used to say, how much I looked like me mum.

1504
01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:42.000
And as a young lad, that's not really what you want to hear, but I, I've been really proud that.

1505
01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:44.000
Yeah.

1506
01:20:44.000 --> 01:20:49.000
Yeah, you can see how much I love her that, bless.

1507
01:20:50.000 --> 01:21:06.000
You see, I've alluded to some of this stuff in the past, not really ever spoke about it in depth like this.

1508
01:21:06.000 --> 01:21:11.000
And part of the reason for that is, and this is the correct forum and it makes sense.

1509
01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:22.000
But part of the reason for that is, I can't think of anything worse than being, what's the word?

1510
01:21:22.000 --> 01:21:30.000
When, if someone, if someone like this was talking to me about this and I had not experienced that, I felt really sorry for them, naturally.

1511
01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:34.000
I don't like that. I don't like those feelings, I don't like those ideas.

1512
01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:38.000
I appreciate that it's, it's way, and people should of course feel sorry.

1513
01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:45.000
But I think the reason that I'm always quite selective of how, when I talk about it is because I cannot have that define me.

1514
01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:46.000
I can't.

1515
01:21:46.000 --> 01:21:51.000
It's not fair to my family, it's not fair to Felicity, it's not fair to my mum.

1516
01:21:51.000 --> 01:21:53.000
I can't.

1517
01:21:53.000 --> 01:22:07.000
And you know, the problem is, if we walked out of here and we just happen to get past, in the article, the Daily Mail print, every single time, they will write about this stuff.

1518
01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:20.000
Like every single time, it could be me and you go and get a coffee and then they did that thing where it's like a 20% new article and then they just fluff out the rest of 80% with basically the narrative that they want to push.

1519
01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:23.000
That's something that I can't escape.

1520
01:22:23.000 --> 01:22:30.000
And I find that really frustrating because I'm not someone who is a glass half empty kind of guy.

1521
01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:33.000
I don't want those kind of feelings and emotions.

1522
01:22:33.000 --> 01:22:37.000
I empathize and understand with anyone hearing these stories.

1523
01:22:37.000 --> 01:22:40.000
Of course, you're going to maybe you would feel bad for me.

1524
01:22:40.000 --> 01:22:46.000
But I think my biggest worry in these kind of things is to not be defined by it.

1525
01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:56.000
And an example of that would be when I released a song called Two of Us, which was a song that was written essentially about my mum's passing.

1526
01:22:56.000 --> 01:22:58.000
Yeah.

1527
01:22:58.000 --> 01:23:09.000
And I didn't realize by releasing that song, how A would open the floodgates to have many people kind of, you know, put a lot of their trauma on me as well, which is okay.

1528
01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:14.000
But also creating this thing where anyone just feels like they could ask anything then.

1529
01:23:14.000 --> 01:23:18.000
So I remember going on to BBC breakfast news.

1530
01:23:18.000 --> 01:23:23.000
And it's one of those things is fucking early morning slot like not even the percentage want to be there.

1531
01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:25.000
Never mind me at that time.

1532
01:23:25.000 --> 01:23:27.000
And I'm not good with early mornings.

1533
01:23:27.000 --> 01:23:32.000
Anyway, so going on to talk about two of us, the single now we distinctly said, you know what it's like.

1534
01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:38.000
You know, these are these are the things that are okay to mention and do not mention these things.

1535
01:23:38.000 --> 01:23:42.000
Now, if I was going to go on and talk about what the song was about, then fair or not.

1536
01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:44.000
You know, that's that's one thing.

1537
01:23:44.000 --> 01:23:49.000
But I actually had a journalist at the time who asked me directly about those things.

1538
01:23:49.000 --> 01:23:52.000
And I'd known that we'd said don't.

1539
01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:57.000
Now, it's very different to be like sometimes on that list, we might have don't speak about one direction.

1540
01:23:57.000 --> 01:23:59.000
Like this is not what I've got a problem with.

1541
01:23:59.000 --> 01:24:06.000
But when someone's had their own grief and you still then going to ask those kind of questions, I think.

1542
01:24:07.000 --> 01:24:09.000
I found that really, really troubling.

1543
01:24:09.000 --> 01:24:13.000
And I think what was interesting was I left the interview.

1544
01:24:13.000 --> 01:24:15.000
Oh, it used to be good at this one. I was a bit younger.

1545
01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:20.000
And I was like, never fucking working with the BBC again.

1546
01:24:20.000 --> 01:24:22.000
And they came back at me this journalist.

1547
01:24:22.000 --> 01:24:27.000
He said, well, if you write a song about grief, expect to be asked about it.

1548
01:24:27.000 --> 01:24:32.000
And my instinctive reaction was there's somebody who hasn't experienced grief.

1549
01:24:32.000 --> 01:24:34.000
They couldn't possibly have.

1550
01:24:34.000 --> 01:24:42.000
Because if they had, they wouldn't make such a horrible, horrible comment that just lacks all kind of empathy.

1551
01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:50.000
So I think it's those kind of moments where I've, I'm quite guarded with this kind of information.

1552
01:24:50.000 --> 01:24:54.000
Just because I think, as I said, I think a lot of people have never spoke about it.

1553
01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:57.000
I don't, I don't carry myself with someone that looks like they're really hurt.

1554
01:24:57.000 --> 01:25:00.000
At least I hope I don't. I don't think I do.

1555
01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:02.000
Do you know what I had?

1556
01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:04.000
It sounds like a crazy thing for me to say.

1557
01:25:04.000 --> 01:25:07.000
But I, I had no idea.

1558
01:25:07.000 --> 01:25:09.000
Okay. Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

1559
01:25:09.000 --> 01:25:10.000
So we met at Socrates.

1560
01:25:10.000 --> 01:25:11.000
Okay. Right.

1561
01:25:11.000 --> 01:25:12.000
I had more like that.

1562
01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:14.000
Okay. That makes me feel good actually.

1563
01:25:14.000 --> 01:25:16.000
You know, it's, it's just me being honest.

1564
01:25:16.000 --> 01:25:19.000
I had no idea. I'm not someone that I don't really read newspapers.

1565
01:25:19.000 --> 01:25:23.000
I don't stay close to tabloid stuff.

1566
01:25:23.000 --> 01:25:27.000
I had known Liam, but Liam hadn't spoken to me about these things.

1567
01:25:27.000 --> 01:25:29.000
I'd met you hang out for a couple of days at Socrates.

1568
01:25:29.000 --> 01:25:31.000
I had no idea. Yeah. Okay.

1569
01:25:31.000 --> 01:25:34.000
And it was only in researching your story and your background

1570
01:25:34.000 --> 01:25:36.000
and understanding where you've come from.

1571
01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:39.000
And really what inspires a lot of the music and different things like that

1572
01:25:39.000 --> 01:25:41.000
that I started to understand these things.

1573
01:25:41.000 --> 01:25:45.000
So you're certainly not someone that carries yourself in any,

1574
01:25:45.000 --> 01:25:48.000
with any particular identity.

1575
01:25:48.000 --> 01:25:53.000
Really that's that one could, could just certain other than just being a normal guy.

1576
01:25:53.000 --> 01:25:57.000
And the other thing that connects us is it was Liam.

1577
01:25:57.000 --> 01:25:59.000
And I think it would have been Liam's birthday a couple of days ago.

1578
01:25:59.000 --> 01:26:00.000
Yes.

1579
01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:01.000
But there was three days off mine.

1580
01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:03.000
So he's the 29th of August, I believe, and mine's the 26th.

1581
01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:06.000
And we both, I wouldn't know him a little bit.

1582
01:26:06.000 --> 01:26:07.000
You know him an awful lot.

1583
01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:14.000
And he passed away while on holiday in Argentina.

1584
01:26:14.000 --> 01:26:18.000
I mean, yeah, I just couldn't believe it.

1585
01:26:18.000 --> 01:26:22.000
And you, to him, because he had told me he talked about you all the time

1586
01:26:22.000 --> 01:26:24.000
through the pandemic, I know you were doing things together,

1587
01:26:24.000 --> 01:26:27.000
doing sort of these sort of live shows and stuff.

1588
01:26:27.000 --> 01:26:32.000
And he would talk about you as if you were his best friend in the band all the time.

1589
01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:36.000
And I guess that's, you feel, you reciprocate that feeling with him, right?

1590
01:26:36.000 --> 01:26:39.000
You were like the, especially there after the band, you know.

1591
01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:41.000
Definitely there after.

1592
01:26:41.000 --> 01:26:45.000
I'd say in the first couple of years, mainly when we used to speak about this,

1593
01:26:45.000 --> 01:26:47.000
we kind of both had heads a little bit.

1594
01:26:47.000 --> 01:26:50.000
Like I said before, Liam had been, you know,

1595
01:26:50.000 --> 01:26:56.000
he'd been working really, really hard since the age of 14 to get to where he was in one direction.

1596
01:26:56.000 --> 01:26:58.000
My journey wasn't like that.

1597
01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:03.000
So there was definitely, you know, if I wanted to do something,

1598
01:27:03.000 --> 01:27:07.000
and I might be going out late at night and then Liam might say something online,

1599
01:27:07.000 --> 01:27:11.000
along the lines of, we've got a photo shoot at nine o'clock in the morning.

1600
01:27:11.000 --> 01:27:14.000
Tomorrow, we never saw eye to eye on those kind of things.

1601
01:27:14.000 --> 01:27:16.000
Because I'm just like, well, I've got this amazing opportunity.

1602
01:27:16.000 --> 01:27:19.000
So I'm still going to go out and, you know, party or whatever.

1603
01:27:19.000 --> 01:27:24.000
But I think Liam, he came from a very, very sensible point of view.

1604
01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:30.000
But mostly because he had, he'd given so much more time and energy to it by that point.

1605
01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:33.000
Like, as I said, like when, yes, it was my third audition.

1606
01:27:33.000 --> 01:27:37.000
But really, they weren't too taxing the moments of the rejection.

1607
01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:40.000
I just got on with it and got through it and it was fine.

1608
01:27:40.000 --> 01:27:45.000
The only time X factor was relevant to me was the times when I was auditioning those days.

1609
01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:50.000
Whereas Liam, it became his life from 14 right up until 16.

1610
01:27:50.000 --> 01:27:57.000
You know, he'd sang it like West Brom Stadium before like any of us had done anything.

1611
01:27:57.000 --> 01:28:07.000
I, when I put my post up about him, and by the way, it's so utterly challenging that.

1612
01:28:07.000 --> 01:28:10.000
There are just too many words and too many memories.

1613
01:28:10.000 --> 01:28:12.000
You could let it, it could just be infinite.

1614
01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:15.000
The, the post, you know, you got to, you, I really wanted,

1615
01:28:15.000 --> 01:28:19.000
I really wanted him to be remembered the way that he should be remembered.

1616
01:28:19.000 --> 01:28:23.000
But this, you know, I could just go on and talk all day about how amazing he was.

1617
01:28:23.000 --> 01:28:26.000
But I think we all looked up to him.

1618
01:28:26.000 --> 01:28:31.000
If we, if we're, I don't think I would have been brave enough to say at that age when I was in the band.

1619
01:28:31.000 --> 01:28:33.000
I think I would have had too much pride.

1620
01:28:33.000 --> 01:28:35.000
But we all looked up to him massively.

1621
01:28:35.000 --> 01:28:39.000
For like the reasons that I just stated, you know, he was vastly experienced before.

1622
01:28:39.000 --> 01:28:41.000
Any of us had done anything.

1623
01:28:41.000 --> 01:28:44.000
Um, he was also like the safest pair of hands.

1624
01:28:44.000 --> 01:28:46.000
Like in every sense of the word.

1625
01:28:46.000 --> 01:28:52.000
So like vocally, interview, music video, you know, like whatever it would be.

1626
01:28:52.000 --> 01:28:56.000
And he'd be like working and doing it like he would always be the safest pair of hands.

1627
01:28:56.000 --> 01:29:00.000
Where you, maybe if me and say in the back, like he have a smoke and a joint or doing something stupid.

1628
01:29:00.000 --> 01:29:04.000
Then we'd always, always have his eye on the ball, which.

1629
01:29:04.000 --> 01:29:11.000
I run a key created more space for the, you know, when you've got someone who's willing to pick up the pieces.

1630
01:29:11.000 --> 01:29:14.000
And you've got young lads.

1631
01:29:14.000 --> 01:29:17.000
Young lads don't reflect and go, oh, I can see he's picking up a lot of the pieces.

1632
01:29:17.000 --> 01:29:19.000
I'm going to do a bit more for it.

1633
01:29:19.000 --> 01:29:20.000
Well, no, you just see that.

1634
01:29:20.000 --> 01:29:28.000
Like my role in the band might have been to be disruptive and have conversations record labels or management or whoever.

1635
01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:31.000
And that was for me to be disruptive and go against the grain.

1636
01:29:31.000 --> 01:29:38.000
Liam's role was the opposite, but equally, if not more important, to just keep everything going, you know.

1637
01:29:38.000 --> 01:29:44.000
And be that safe pair of hands of keeping everything in check.

1638
01:29:44.000 --> 01:29:49.000
That's why from like a very young age that he was, he was, he was called that the sensible one in the band,

1639
01:29:49.000 --> 01:29:52.000
which I also don't think would have been in loads of favors meant to the either.

1640
01:29:52.000 --> 01:29:54.000
He was wildly misunderstood.

1641
01:29:54.000 --> 01:29:56.000
Big time, big time, man, big time.

1642
01:29:56.000 --> 01:30:01.000
And often times people maliciously misunderstood him, which was hard, you know, it's hard.

1643
01:30:01.000 --> 01:30:05.000
I don't know if I have the right words for this, but if you knew Liam Payne,

1644
01:30:05.000 --> 01:30:10.000
and then you went on the internet and saw the way that he was described when, you know, certain moments in Prassam,

1645
01:30:10.000 --> 01:30:13.000
there was that interview he did in LA and things like that.

1646
01:30:13.000 --> 01:30:22.000
You could only feel awful that he was so poorly misunderstood because he was often paying to this being arrogant or whatever.

1647
01:30:22.000 --> 01:30:28.000
But the reality of Liam is like the opposite of whatever the one Eric and it's pure is the word.

1648
01:30:28.000 --> 01:30:31.000
Really, yeah, really nice way of describing him like that.

1649
01:30:31.000 --> 01:30:37.000
Had, and I don't mean this in a remotely rude way or a drug or two, a drug or two way,

1650
01:30:37.000 --> 01:30:40.000
he had a bit of puppy dog energy about him.

1651
01:30:40.000 --> 01:30:44.000
You know, like he's just like, when you say pure there, that's what it makes me feel like.

1652
01:30:44.000 --> 01:30:48.000
He's just the kind of guy that you might, you know, you might get a bit of band wrong

1653
01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:53.000
and it comes across a bit cluttered and you see him go, oh, and you go, oh, fucking awesome.

1654
01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:56.000
Just such a, just really wanted to be liked.

1655
01:30:56.000 --> 01:31:02.000
And that we all do, obviously like that, that's in all of us, but I think for Liam, it was, it was fairly important.

1656
01:31:02.000 --> 01:31:08.000
But also he missed out on some of the social life because from 14 to 16, he was actually working at that point.

1657
01:31:08.000 --> 01:31:15.000
Like he was still at school and stuff, but his brain and his dreams and probably every night that he went to sleep,

1658
01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:19.000
he was thinking about how is he going to achieve what it is that he wants to achieve.

1659
01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:25.000
So he, he definitely had a very different journey to all of us.

1660
01:31:25.000 --> 01:31:32.000
Where were you when you, you found out in the car on in LA and I just dropped.

1661
01:31:32.000 --> 01:31:37.000
I'm pretty sure again, my memory isn't good at these moments of time, but I think, I think I just dropped for

1662
01:31:37.000 --> 01:31:44.000
really off at school, my son, and we were just about to pull back up home.

1663
01:31:44.000 --> 01:31:47.000
Yeah, and yeah, I think that's how it went down.

1664
01:31:47.000 --> 01:31:53.000
It was actually, it was actually, I found out through Nile.

1665
01:31:53.000 --> 01:32:01.000
They told me and then I, yeah, I, I think you said Nile says something like, on the lens of every single news.

1666
01:32:01.000 --> 01:32:10.000
And as you said, that kind of you, what it might meant, what might it might have meant.

1667
01:32:10.000 --> 01:32:24.000
I had the same, the feeling to, that had a flesty, you know, I think anyone has this when they're around someone who's struggling.

1668
01:32:24.000 --> 01:32:27.000
My 150% wasn't nearly enough.

1669
01:32:27.000 --> 01:32:33.000
And that's where we, you know, it's my own arrogance thinking that I could have helped really,

1670
01:32:33.000 --> 01:32:36.000
because it was so much deeper than what I could have done for him.

1671
01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:40.000
He was definitely, you know, he was definitely struggling at that time in his life.

1672
01:32:40.000 --> 01:32:44.000
And a lot of people said this and I've really, really resonated with me.

1673
01:32:44.000 --> 01:32:52.000
I just, he never, if he could, if he could just see just for five minutes,

1674
01:32:52.000 --> 01:32:56.000
just live in your head or my head and see how we perceive him.

1675
01:32:56.000 --> 01:32:59.000
He would be so shocked.

1676
01:32:59.000 --> 01:33:04.000
He would be like, honestly, even the fact that you two are friends and I didn't know about that until

1677
01:33:04.000 --> 01:33:08.000
you mentioned it so great, maybe he'd mentioned it loosely.

1678
01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:10.000
He would have loved that.

1679
01:33:10.000 --> 01:33:12.000
He would have loved that.

1680
01:33:12.000 --> 01:33:19.000
He would have, you would have been someone definitely, definitely that he would have felt really like proud to know, you know,

1681
01:33:19.000 --> 01:33:24.000
because you come from also a very credible space and that's something that was always really important to Liam business.

1682
01:33:24.000 --> 01:33:27.000
Very, very important to Liam.

1683
01:33:27.000 --> 01:33:33.000
So the fact that you saw him, that would have meant the world to him, definitely.

1684
01:33:33.000 --> 01:33:38.000
He just, yeah, he, he, he very, very misunderstood.

1685
01:33:38.000 --> 01:33:48.000
But I think also the fact that he was misunderstood is because he was, like I said before about all of our solo endeavors.

1686
01:33:48.000 --> 01:33:57.000
When most bands or artists start out, they do a development stage for six months, 12 months, 18 months, two years.

1687
01:33:57.000 --> 01:34:02.000
We had to do this development in the public eye, post being in one direction.

1688
01:34:02.000 --> 01:34:05.000
Liam was still working so much out.

1689
01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:10.000
So the fact that he might have been misunderstood, you can't, you know,

1690
01:34:10.000 --> 01:34:12.000
there's some things that people definitely can be judged for.

1691
01:34:12.000 --> 01:34:19.000
But in terms of him occasionally coming across like that, you can't even judge people on looking because they just see what they see.

1692
01:34:19.000 --> 01:34:28.000
But in reality, that's just someone navigating almost in the way that if you went down to university and just people watched for two months,

1693
01:34:28.000 --> 01:34:33.000
you would see some stuff, you know, that people that were struggling with some things and whatever.

1694
01:34:33.000 --> 01:34:36.000
Or, you know, complete walking contradictions.

1695
01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:41.000
You'd see someone in the first year who says that they swear by this brand and they'll never wear this brand at the next year.

1696
01:34:41.000 --> 01:34:43.000
They'll be wearing said brand.

1697
01:34:43.000 --> 01:34:47.000
When we're at that age, we're all still just working it out.

1698
01:34:47.000 --> 01:34:54.000
There's so much room to be misunderstood because you, you, you don't know yet, you know.

1699
01:34:54.000 --> 01:35:05.000
And I think that was a tough thing for all of us is working out who am I outside of Liam in one direction, Louis in one direction.

1700
01:35:05.000 --> 01:35:08.000
Who, who am I? And what does that look like?

1701
01:35:08.000 --> 01:35:11.000
And that question's intimidating, really, really intimidating.

1702
01:35:11.000 --> 01:35:18.000
You lose a friend there, but you also, in some respects, it marks it's grieving the band again.

1703
01:35:18.000 --> 01:35:20.000
Is it not? Is it not? You know what I mean?

1704
01:35:20.000 --> 01:35:22.000
You definitely brought up feelings like that.

1705
01:35:22.000 --> 01:35:35.000
Look, there's, there's, there's now only three other people on the planet that can deeply understand my professional journey.

1706
01:35:35.000 --> 01:35:41.000
Like you never say never, but never, like I just can't, I can't ever imagine.

1707
01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:43.000
I'm not sure it would be right to him.

1708
01:35:43.000 --> 01:35:48.000
Say, say, say segment 25 years time, it's like a fucking oasis thing.

1709
01:35:48.000 --> 01:35:55.000
They offer us an arm and a leg and they'll like come back and do this many shows.

1710
01:35:55.000 --> 01:35:56.000
I don't know.

1711
01:35:56.000 --> 01:36:01.000
Yeah, I think it just, it just completely put a pen and all that.

1712
01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:07.000
And the irony is there was no one campaigning for one direction to get back, back together more than Liam.

1713
01:36:07.000 --> 01:36:11.000
And like, I would say I came in a close second, actually, like definitely.

1714
01:36:11.000 --> 01:36:15.000
It's an important thing to mention about Liam, which I thought was incredible.

1715
01:36:15.000 --> 01:36:20.000
There's a time where I felt like me and Liam were professionally losing together.

1716
01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:27.000
We were struggling to, to be celilitis and find true success and we're kind of struggling together.

1717
01:36:27.000 --> 01:36:32.000
And then Liam had little moments where he had like really successful singles and the stream really well.

1718
01:36:32.000 --> 01:36:34.000
And he'd like feel really good about that.

1719
01:36:34.000 --> 01:36:38.000
But at that time, nothing was really working for me in my job.

1720
01:36:38.000 --> 01:36:41.000
So I was really proud of him and I'd message him and stuff.

1721
01:36:41.000 --> 01:36:46.000
And then not to the same weight, but kind of role reversed a little bit.

1722
01:36:46.000 --> 01:36:49.000
And Liam start was struggling a little bit more professionally.

1723
01:36:49.000 --> 01:36:56.000
And I just started, just started to understand the picture a little bit more, started doing more touring and stuff like that.

1724
01:36:56.000 --> 01:37:04.000
And like, for example, when my, I made a documentary in a film about like my life after one direction and Liam came to the premiere.

1725
01:37:04.000 --> 01:37:11.000
Now, I'll just say this because I was going to mince me words, but none of the other boys would have done that.

1726
01:37:11.000 --> 01:37:14.000
Fact, boys out the band, the lads in one direction.

1727
01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:16.000
Would I have even done that?

1728
01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:21.000
I like to sit here now and say, yeah, I think I would, but I don't know, truthfully.

1729
01:37:21.000 --> 01:37:28.000
And the point being that Liam made me empathizing how I was a couple of years prior to that.

1730
01:37:29.000 --> 01:37:38.000
Liam was sat in a cinema watching a film about how I'd been successful in the last 12 months when he was struggling with his own things.

1731
01:37:38.000 --> 01:37:43.000
And it's something that I'm not sure I would have been brave enough to do.

1732
01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:45.000
I'm not sure the other boys would have.

1733
01:37:45.000 --> 01:37:50.000
And basically all that is to sum that up is just utterly putting himself second.

1734
01:37:50.000 --> 01:37:54.000
There's no way that that wouldn't have had a certain kind of way on it.

1735
01:37:54.000 --> 01:37:58.000
Because as you said, we're all human and we naturally compare.

1736
01:37:58.000 --> 01:38:03.000
So, you know, there might be things that were happening there that he was wanting for.

1737
01:38:03.000 --> 01:38:07.000
And I think just the fact that he turned up on that day and was there for me.

1738
01:38:07.000 --> 01:38:11.000
And I just did the role reverse in my head and imagined that.

1739
01:38:11.000 --> 01:38:13.000
I just imagined how challenging it that could be.

1740
01:38:13.000 --> 01:38:16.000
And it's just a real testament to Liam.

1741
01:38:16.000 --> 01:38:18.000
And he couldn't have been more happy.

1742
01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:20.000
And there's another great example right of this.

1743
01:38:20.000 --> 01:38:22.000
I've heard the fucking internet.

1744
01:38:22.000 --> 01:38:25.000
It's just horrible plays at times.

1745
01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:29.000
He put up, and luckily I know someone with a screenshot because he deleted it in the end.

1746
01:38:29.000 --> 01:38:34.000
But he put up this beautiful post after my premiere for this documentary.

1747
01:38:34.000 --> 01:38:36.000
Like an essay, a fucking essay.

1748
01:38:36.000 --> 01:38:38.000
Like stuff that he's never said to me before.

1749
01:38:38.000 --> 01:38:41.000
I was like the sweetest, nicest fucking shit.

1750
01:38:41.000 --> 01:38:44.000
And then about two days later he deleted it.

1751
01:38:44.000 --> 01:38:46.000
Because the fans were just came in for it.

1752
01:38:46.000 --> 01:38:49.000
Just saying that he was like, you know, a bandwagon kind of like.

1753
01:38:49.000 --> 01:38:51.000
Like, you know what it's like.

1754
01:38:51.000 --> 01:38:53.000
It's a very small percentage of people that make a lot of noise.

1755
01:38:53.000 --> 01:38:55.000
And sometimes it'll push you to a point of like even deleting a post.

1756
01:38:55.000 --> 01:38:58.000
But that being an example of him just really putting himself second.

1757
01:38:58.000 --> 01:39:02.000
And really trying to say to the world how proud he was of me.

1758
01:39:02.000 --> 01:39:04.000
And the end goal was more ridicule.

1759
01:39:04.000 --> 01:39:06.000
And so he happened right when he was an Argentinist.

1760
01:39:06.000 --> 01:39:08.000
He was there catching Nile.

1761
01:39:08.000 --> 01:39:09.000
Yeah.

1762
01:39:09.000 --> 01:39:12.000
And there was lots of similar narrative around his appearance though.

1763
01:39:12.000 --> 01:39:16.000
And all I would say in any regard like that.

1764
01:39:16.000 --> 01:39:19.000
Not just Liam in any person like that.

1765
01:39:19.000 --> 01:39:23.000
After you judge, because sometimes it's human nature to judge.

1766
01:39:23.000 --> 01:39:27.000
After you judge, just give those things just a little bit more thought.

1767
01:39:27.000 --> 01:39:29.000
So take the tour thing for example.

1768
01:39:29.000 --> 01:39:32.000
And he's at the tour show and people were.

1769
01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:36.000
People are making comments of how much he was loving the attention.

1770
01:39:37.000 --> 01:39:39.000
On the service level, that's someone who wants attention.

1771
01:39:39.000 --> 01:39:43.000
If you just look a little bit deeper, that's someone who's just been in the biggest band in the world.

1772
01:39:43.000 --> 01:39:47.000
And once those situations again, who hasn't had those live situations again.

1773
01:39:47.000 --> 01:39:48.000
And craves for that.

1774
01:39:48.000 --> 01:39:52.000
The reason also Liam could be misunderstood is because he.

1775
01:39:52.000 --> 01:39:54.000
He didn't really operate with the filter.

1776
01:39:54.000 --> 01:39:58.000
You know, so he would just feel something say it and they go.

1777
01:39:58.000 --> 01:40:03.000
Is there anything else that you you've been meaning to say?

1778
01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:06.000
It's a great provocative question.

1779
01:40:06.000 --> 01:40:09.000
No, no, there is.

1780
01:40:09.000 --> 01:40:10.000
There is.

1781
01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:15.000
Well, we should talk, we should talk about Freddie for a second.

1782
01:40:15.000 --> 01:40:16.000
My little boy.

1783
01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:17.000
From the head.

1784
01:40:17.000 --> 01:40:18.000
Yeah.

1785
01:40:18.000 --> 01:40:21.000
Which is again, something that happened to me.

1786
01:40:21.000 --> 01:40:22.000
I was young.

1787
01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:24.000
I was 24 when I had Freddie.

1788
01:40:24.000 --> 01:40:29.000
Now, what a lot of people, the emotions that a lot of people go through when they've become a new parent.

1789
01:40:29.000 --> 01:40:32.000
Some of those will be different for me because I've always been.

1790
01:40:32.000 --> 01:40:36.000
Uber excited about it, even from like being a young, young lad.

1791
01:40:36.000 --> 01:40:40.000
But also, truthfully, I felt utterly confident.

1792
01:40:40.000 --> 01:40:43.000
I just, I just, I felt I felt like I was going to be a good dad.

1793
01:40:43.000 --> 01:40:47.000
I really, really wanted to do that and to play that role.

1794
01:40:47.000 --> 01:40:51.000
And he's just, honestly, he is just the sweetest kid, man.

1795
01:40:51.000 --> 01:40:52.000
He's just so kind.

1796
01:40:52.000 --> 01:40:55.000
Like, that's what, honestly, I could well up thinking about it now.

1797
01:40:55.000 --> 01:40:59.000
Like, that's what, that's what makes me feel deeply proud.

1798
01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:03.000
That, I mean, that's what I did ask Lotty and a few others about, about him.

1799
01:41:03.000 --> 01:41:06.000
And the quote that I got back is, Louis is the most amazing dad.

1800
01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:12.000
His little boy is the nicest, sweetest, most polite boy ever.

1801
01:41:12.000 --> 01:41:15.000
And that's obviously because of how Louis has brought him up.

1802
01:41:15.000 --> 01:41:19.000
I try to take a lot of advice and be more like him with my parenting.

1803
01:41:19.000 --> 01:41:21.000
And that came from Lotty.

1804
01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:25.000
Multiple accounts of just how wonderful of a young, young man.

1805
01:41:25.000 --> 01:41:26.000
Freddie's growing up to be.

1806
01:41:26.000 --> 01:41:28.000
So that's a great one.

1807
01:41:28.000 --> 01:41:31.000
I tell you what, I'm at this age 33.

1808
01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:32.000
A few great years.

1809
01:41:32.000 --> 01:41:36.000
I'm yet starting to be a bit more aware of me age, feeling a little bit older.

1810
01:41:36.000 --> 01:41:40.000
There's nothing that makes you feel better than when I go pick one from school.

1811
01:41:40.000 --> 01:41:41.000
I have a young dad.

1812
01:41:41.000 --> 01:41:44.000
For that age group, I'm still a young dad.

1813
01:41:44.000 --> 01:41:47.000
So, yeah, it's good for my ego as well.

1814
01:41:48.000 --> 01:41:52.000
The only things that can sometimes be challenging like that with Freddie is

1815
01:41:52.000 --> 01:41:55.000
it took, it was like the elephant in the room for ages,

1816
01:41:55.000 --> 01:41:59.000
me talking about like my life and specifically the fame,

1817
01:41:59.000 --> 01:42:01.000
specifically like those kind of things.

1818
01:42:01.000 --> 01:42:06.000
Because I think to a kid, they just see it in the pure sense of a singer.

1819
01:42:06.000 --> 01:42:08.000
There's someone who sings and that's that.

1820
01:42:08.000 --> 01:42:12.000
But I think where it became inevitable that I'd have to have conversations with them,

1821
01:42:12.000 --> 01:42:15.000
it'd be like see where I'll, you know,

1822
01:42:15.000 --> 01:42:20.000
a target in America and someone starts me for a photo.

1823
01:42:20.000 --> 01:42:23.000
Now, I'd like to say I'm pretty good with photos.

1824
01:42:23.000 --> 01:42:25.000
I'll do them eight times out ten.

1825
01:42:25.000 --> 01:42:30.000
Whenever I'm with Freddie, there is a 1,000% no chance.

1826
01:42:30.000 --> 01:42:31.000
Like that is just not happening.

1827
01:42:31.000 --> 01:42:33.000
I don't get enough time with them as it is.

1828
01:42:33.000 --> 01:42:37.000
Always balancing me time between tour and going to see Freddie in the UK.

1829
01:42:37.000 --> 01:42:39.000
So like it's just a flat note every single time.

1830
01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:42.000
And I have to let the second or third time that had happened.

1831
01:42:42.000 --> 01:42:44.000
I just played in my mind.

1832
01:42:44.000 --> 01:42:47.000
I put into bed that night and I was reliving it and I was thinking,

1833
01:42:47.000 --> 01:42:49.000
he's going to think I'm a dick.

1834
01:42:49.000 --> 01:42:55.000
I got that, I was like, oh, it's really important that I push kindness on him

1835
01:42:55.000 --> 01:42:59.000
and respect and seeing the good in people and all of that.

1836
01:42:59.000 --> 01:43:04.000
All of a sudden I was doing this thing that was really contrary to what I was trying to teach.

1837
01:43:04.000 --> 01:43:07.000
So I did have to have a conversation with him about it.

1838
01:43:07.000 --> 01:43:11.000
But again, you're trying to explain algebra as I said before.

1839
01:43:11.000 --> 01:43:18.000
When I'm not a work, like I would be more than happy to like nobody to ever recognize me.

1840
01:43:18.000 --> 01:43:20.000
When I'm not a work, when I'm at work, I'll need it for the promo.

1841
01:43:20.000 --> 01:43:21.000
I'll give me a bit of that.

1842
01:43:21.000 --> 01:43:25.000
But when I'm not a work, like I could guard me way to just never have any of that.

1843
01:43:25.000 --> 01:43:26.000
Huddled up, no one.

1844
01:43:26.000 --> 01:43:27.000
Cool.

1845
01:43:27.000 --> 01:43:31.000
So when I'm picking up Freddie from school, I am certainly not some guy used to be in this band

1846
01:43:31.000 --> 01:43:32.000
and this thing.

1847
01:43:32.000 --> 01:43:33.000
Like not at all.

1848
01:43:33.000 --> 01:43:36.000
And they're like everyone else as a father or as a mother.

1849
01:43:36.000 --> 01:43:40.000
It was last day term, go to pick him up and go into his class.

1850
01:43:40.000 --> 01:43:45.000
And I could just hear what sounded like karaoke and I'm thinking of all fucking days

1851
01:43:45.000 --> 01:43:47.000
and be going to pick him up and doing karaoke today.

1852
01:43:47.000 --> 01:43:51.000
And she had absolutely no problem asking me in front of everyone

1853
01:43:51.000 --> 01:43:54.000
if I wanted to come to the front and do one of the songs.

1854
01:43:54.000 --> 01:43:57.000
Now, I'm there as a parent.

1855
01:43:57.000 --> 01:44:01.000
And what's really tough is, in front of Freddie and all his friends,

1856
01:44:01.000 --> 01:44:03.000
I have to plightly decline.

1857
01:44:03.000 --> 01:44:05.000
Now, I don't really like how that's going to make Freddie feel.

1858
01:44:05.000 --> 01:44:08.000
You know, those kind of situations are really tough like that where

1859
01:44:08.000 --> 01:44:11.000
and that's some people maybe I just grabbed the mic and just took the stage, you know.

1860
01:44:11.000 --> 01:44:15.000
But I, those, there are moments like that that I think,

1861
01:44:15.000 --> 01:44:19.000
I don't think he's going to truly understand until he gets a little bit older.

1862
01:44:19.000 --> 01:44:23.000
He's been to a couple of gigs and that definitely added like some context to it all.

1863
01:44:23.000 --> 01:44:25.000
He came into you in California, didn't he?

1864
01:44:25.000 --> 01:44:26.000
Yeah.

1865
01:44:26.000 --> 01:44:28.000
Yeah, that was amazing, man.

1866
01:44:28.000 --> 01:44:29.000
It was so amazing.

1867
01:44:30.000 --> 01:44:34.000
I did something at 24 years old that has had a profound impact on my life.

1868
01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:37.000
I set myself the challenge of posting every single day on my social media channels.

1869
01:44:37.000 --> 01:44:40.000
And at the time, I was doing it to grow my following.

1870
01:44:40.000 --> 01:44:45.000
But I had this profound impact on my life and two remarkable things happened when I did that.

1871
01:44:45.000 --> 01:44:49.000
I managed to learn faster because every single day I'm capturing what is happening to me

1872
01:44:49.000 --> 01:44:52.000
and trying to distill it down into something that I can share with the world.

1873
01:44:52.000 --> 01:44:56.000
But more remarkably, it led me to building a following of many millions of people

1874
01:44:56.000 --> 01:44:59.000
and that's the basis that I used to launch the Diary of a CEO.

1875
01:44:59.000 --> 01:45:02.000
And that's why I want to tell you about our sponsor today Adobe Express.

1876
01:45:02.000 --> 01:45:07.000
They are the platform that I use to make all the posts across my LinkedIn and across my Instagram.

1877
01:45:07.000 --> 01:45:10.000
It's a couple of clicks and you don't need to be an expert.

1878
01:45:10.000 --> 01:45:13.000
And that is why I love using it because I'm not an expert in graphic design.

1879
01:45:13.000 --> 01:45:18.000
It's accessible to use for all of us, even if we don't have the technical prowess to design great things.

1880
01:45:18.000 --> 01:45:22.000
So if you want to start compounding both your reach and your knowledge like I did at 24 years old,

1881
01:45:22.000 --> 01:45:28.000
then head to Adobe.ly slash Stephen and get started with Adobe Express.

1882
01:45:28.000 --> 01:45:32.000
That's Adobe.ly slash Stephen.

1883
01:45:32.000 --> 01:45:35.000
I guess we should talk about the music.

1884
01:45:35.000 --> 01:45:36.000
Yeah.

1885
01:45:36.000 --> 01:45:37.000
I'm very excited to talk about.

1886
01:45:37.000 --> 01:45:39.000
So you've been working on this album.

1887
01:45:39.000 --> 01:45:46.000
And I think what's the important context we've had is I'm curious to know how much everything we've talked about today

1888
01:45:46.000 --> 01:45:49.000
and the season of life that you've arrived at 33.

1889
01:45:49.000 --> 01:45:51.000
You're now in love as well.

1890
01:45:51.000 --> 01:45:52.000
Your girlfriend is now there.

1891
01:45:52.000 --> 01:45:55.000
From all the people I spoke to, you're very smitten.

1892
01:45:55.000 --> 01:45:59.000
I think your friend from back home described you as being whipped.

1893
01:45:59.000 --> 01:46:00.000
Was that myself?

1894
01:46:00.000 --> 01:46:01.000
Yeah.

1895
01:46:01.000 --> 01:46:03.000
Sounds like a home.

1896
01:46:03.000 --> 01:46:04.000
That's funny.

1897
01:46:04.000 --> 01:46:06.000
And you went Instagram official?

1898
01:46:06.000 --> 01:46:07.000
Yeah.

1899
01:46:07.000 --> 01:46:08.000
Yeah.

1900
01:46:08.000 --> 01:46:09.000
New territory for me all that.

1901
01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:10.000
Yeah.

1902
01:46:10.000 --> 01:46:11.000
I'm learning on the job.

1903
01:46:11.000 --> 01:46:13.000
How does that all weave into the music?

1904
01:46:13.000 --> 01:46:15.000
And how is the music different this time around?

1905
01:46:15.000 --> 01:46:16.000
What are you thinking going into the studio?

1906
01:46:16.000 --> 01:46:18.000
You know, all those things are so relevant.

1907
01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:24.000
They are like, you know, person alive and how happy you are and fulfilled and content.

1908
01:46:24.000 --> 01:46:27.000
All those things of course play into the record definitely.

1909
01:46:27.000 --> 01:46:31.000
I think because of, you know, a lot of the conversation we've just had,

1910
01:46:31.000 --> 01:46:33.000
there's been a certain kind of weight to the music before now.

1911
01:46:33.000 --> 01:46:37.000
Like I said, I wrote that song about my mum called Two of Us.

1912
01:46:37.000 --> 01:46:41.000
And there's just a certain, I could imagine, you know, listen to my first record.

1913
01:46:41.000 --> 01:46:44.000
Like I'd be pretty exhausted after listening to it emotionally.

1914
01:46:44.000 --> 01:46:49.000
He's like, fucking hell, just put in a couple of nice, happy, fun songs, you know.

1915
01:46:49.000 --> 01:46:51.000
But it wasn't true to me at that time.

1916
01:46:51.000 --> 01:46:59.000
So like I think now I feel in a comfortable place to be like positive and like happy and confident.

1917
01:46:59.000 --> 01:47:05.000
You know, that's one thing I was thinking about with this record is like my intention is just to maybe feel good.

1918
01:47:05.000 --> 01:47:09.000
And that's a really cliche and like obvious thing to say.

1919
01:47:09.000 --> 01:47:13.000
But I'm not sure some of my other music did that.

1920
01:47:13.000 --> 01:47:19.000
It made you feel it was honest, it was painful at times, but you didn't feel that good.

1921
01:47:19.000 --> 01:47:28.000
So I think now I've got this one as like a new sense of life, a new sense of happiness and purpose and fulfillment, all those things.

1922
01:47:28.000 --> 01:47:34.000
But also it's something I've, like the older I get, the more hippie I can get on these kind of ideas.

1923
01:47:34.000 --> 01:47:44.000
And if I would use it like an analogy on the last two records, I had a very small palette of paint of the colors I was choosing from.

1924
01:47:44.000 --> 01:47:47.000
And a lot of them were kind of darker colors.

1925
01:47:47.000 --> 01:47:51.000
Whereas on this record, it feels like the palette is a lot deeper.

1926
01:47:51.000 --> 01:47:55.000
There is a lot more to say, but there's a lot more color on there as well.

1927
01:47:55.000 --> 01:47:59.000
That makes me further good because that I must feel good to make that record.

1928
01:47:59.000 --> 01:48:02.000
You can't fake shit like that or at least I can't anyway.

1929
01:48:02.000 --> 01:48:05.000
And how much does love come into all of this?

1930
01:48:05.000 --> 01:48:09.000
As I said, I'm deeply, deeply romantic person.

1931
01:48:09.000 --> 01:48:13.000
It's also, it's also easy to be romantic when you're a creative, you know.

1932
01:48:13.000 --> 01:48:16.000
Those two things are just, they're tight.

1933
01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:23.000
But I think for me, I really struggle to write in a fictional sense, I really, really struggle.

1934
01:48:23.000 --> 01:48:30.000
So like for me, I have to have been living it, I have to, it has to be literal, it has to be real to me.

1935
01:48:30.000 --> 01:48:35.000
So if I wasn't feeling so good right now, I wasn't feeling so in love.

1936
01:48:35.000 --> 01:48:39.000
The record probably would have a slightly different feel to it.

1937
01:48:39.000 --> 01:48:47.000
Just because it, you know, I, things like that are in everything that I, we do, I would say.

1938
01:48:47.000 --> 01:48:49.000
And what is success for you this time around?

1939
01:48:49.000 --> 01:48:53.000
Like what is, we talked about the comparison in this and that and all these other yardsticks we can use.

1940
01:48:53.000 --> 01:48:58.000
I tell you what success is, success for me.

1941
01:48:58.000 --> 01:49:05.000
Is actually successfully computing what the new idea of success is.

1942
01:49:05.000 --> 01:49:10.000
So I know what my old idea is, but true success for me and I'm not there yet,

1943
01:49:10.000 --> 01:49:16.000
is getting to the point where I don't just say this is my new version of success.

1944
01:49:16.000 --> 01:49:18.000
I mean it implicitly.

1945
01:49:18.000 --> 01:49:26.000
And it's really, what's really difficult is the music industry is an industry that is A, a numbers game,

1946
01:49:26.000 --> 01:49:28.000
and B competitive.

1947
01:49:28.000 --> 01:49:32.000
Now you can pretend to have this different version of success and you can get there in the end.

1948
01:49:32.000 --> 01:49:38.000
But the point being that like there are a million different tools in place to pull you to the other side.

1949
01:49:38.000 --> 01:49:39.000
Yeah.

1950
01:49:39.000 --> 01:49:43.000
It genuinely shouldn't matter where my album charts.

1951
01:49:43.000 --> 01:49:46.000
Let's just say like the Gulf of the UK, for example, where my album charts in the UK.

1952
01:49:46.000 --> 01:49:49.000
It shouldn't really matter that much to me, but it does.

1953
01:49:49.000 --> 01:49:50.000
I've not quite got there yet.

1954
01:49:50.000 --> 01:49:54.000
And I think the irony is I just started to get there on the last record.

1955
01:49:54.000 --> 01:49:58.000
And the last record, obviously, high class problem, I get that, went to number one.

1956
01:49:58.000 --> 01:50:01.000
And then I was like, well, obviously I want it again now.

1957
01:50:01.000 --> 01:50:05.000
So I started to have the answer for what the new thing of success looks like.

1958
01:50:05.000 --> 01:50:10.000
Until I succeeded, I superseded my own idea of success.

1959
01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:13.000
And then I'm like, oh, well, then the barriers just changed.

1960
01:50:13.000 --> 01:50:17.000
And then you're basically just playing the same game you were before.

1961
01:50:17.000 --> 01:50:19.000
Where are you in your journey of happiness?

1962
01:50:19.000 --> 01:50:25.000
Like if you had to plot your life on a timeline of like, you know, I like that.

1963
01:50:25.000 --> 01:50:28.000
So I really thought about that like, thought about it like this and makes me feel good.

1964
01:50:28.000 --> 01:50:30.000
It feels like I'm on the home straight.

1965
01:50:30.000 --> 01:50:31.000
Okay, nice.

1966
01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:32.000
Beautiful.

1967
01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:39.000
Like I feel like truthfully, like obviously not what I would have told, like my sister's like back in the day

1968
01:50:39.000 --> 01:50:43.000
or my family or anything like that, but like it was more of a concept.

1969
01:50:43.000 --> 01:50:49.000
The idea of me getting over this and being truly happy for a long time.

1970
01:50:49.000 --> 01:50:53.000
It was like a concept as opposed to any kind of form of reality.

1971
01:50:53.000 --> 01:50:56.000
It was like, well, I'm sure, you know, logically that makes sense at my head.

1972
01:50:56.000 --> 01:50:57.000
But will I ever get that?

1973
01:50:57.000 --> 01:51:00.000
I don't know.

1974
01:51:00.000 --> 01:51:05.000
I now feel worthy for the success that I've heard.

1975
01:51:05.000 --> 01:51:09.000
And for a long time, I just didn't know if I'd ever get there.

1976
01:51:09.000 --> 01:51:16.000
I would say this record, this album, is the album that I was always, that I always deserved to make.

1977
01:51:16.000 --> 01:51:21.000
It's just that had to be brave enough to say, yes, I'm an artist, yes, I'm a recording artist,

1978
01:51:21.000 --> 01:51:23.000
and I'm a touring artist, and I'm a songwriter.

1979
01:51:23.000 --> 01:51:27.000
And all these things that sometimes just felt a little bit cringed to say out loud,

1980
01:51:27.000 --> 01:51:30.000
you know, I think part of the imposter syndrome may be.

1981
01:51:30.000 --> 01:51:36.000
But the picture that was forever quite blurry looks a little bit more sharp now.

1982
01:51:36.000 --> 01:51:39.000
And I mean, the fans are waiting.

1983
01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:40.000
Yeah.

1984
01:51:40.000 --> 01:51:46.000
I saw the tweet you did the other day where you talked about the music and how confident you are

1985
01:51:46.000 --> 01:51:48.000
and how you're feeling about it.

1986
01:51:48.000 --> 01:51:52.000
And the response underneath that post was just insane.

1987
01:51:52.000 --> 01:51:53.000
Absolutely insane.

1988
01:51:53.000 --> 01:51:55.000
The energy is there.

1989
01:51:55.000 --> 01:51:58.000
And people are extremely excited.

1990
01:51:58.000 --> 01:52:00.000
Do you have an incredible fan base?

1991
01:52:00.000 --> 01:52:04.000
Yeah, honestly, I could never talk about this enough.

1992
01:52:04.000 --> 01:52:10.000
And anyone listening to this now that doesn't know me or my fans will just think that this is just another artist

1993
01:52:10.000 --> 01:52:12.000
speaking another cliche about his fans.

1994
01:52:12.000 --> 01:52:16.000
I'm telling you, this is what I call it as a codependency.

1995
01:52:16.000 --> 01:52:20.000
Like, they do so much for me.

1996
01:52:20.000 --> 01:52:24.000
And I do, you know, hopefully stuff for them when I do the gigs and stuff.

1997
01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:30.000
But like, when I feel the energy on stage, this is not a, let me show you all what I can do.

1998
01:52:30.000 --> 01:52:34.000
This is a look what we've done together, you know, and I really, really feel that.

1999
01:52:34.000 --> 01:52:40.000
The size of the venues that I'll be playing on this next tour, these are things that I never considered for myself.

2000
01:52:40.000 --> 01:52:46.000
And it only made possible from the fan base being like really, really loyal.

2001
01:52:46.000 --> 01:52:50.000
But also like real patient, real patient for me to just kind of, you know,

2002
01:52:50.000 --> 01:52:54.000
work all these things out on the fly while they keep buying the record.

2003
01:52:54.000 --> 01:52:57.000
The other thing that really surprised me the lot of people didn't know about is that

2004
01:52:57.000 --> 01:53:01.000
you are also a pretty prolific entrepreneur in your own right.

2005
01:53:01.000 --> 01:53:05.000
And you've, you've found in a music festival called The Away from Home Festival,

2006
01:53:05.000 --> 01:53:09.000
which was originally in London but is expanded internationally around Spain, Italy, Mexico.

2007
01:53:09.000 --> 01:53:11.000
You got your clothing brand as well, 28.

2008
01:53:11.000 --> 01:53:13.000
I saw 28 tattooed on your arm there.

2009
01:53:13.000 --> 01:53:15.000
I believe, which is a streetwear brand.

2010
01:53:15.000 --> 01:53:17.000
And that's done tremendously well.

2011
01:53:17.000 --> 01:53:22.000
The brand has sold four sold out drops worldwide and hosted some incredible events.

2012
01:53:22.000 --> 01:53:24.000
Well, I'm very excited.

2013
01:53:24.000 --> 01:53:26.000
I'm very, very excited about your, your album.

2014
01:53:26.000 --> 01:53:30.000
Very, very excited by, I'm, I guess, some, do you have a name for your fan base yet?

2015
01:53:30.000 --> 01:53:32.000
Everyone seems to have a name for their fan.

2016
01:53:32.000 --> 01:53:34.000
Do you want that so funny?

2017
01:53:34.000 --> 01:53:36.000
The Tomlins? I don't know what's it.

2018
01:53:36.000 --> 01:53:38.000
There must be, though.

2019
01:53:38.000 --> 01:53:40.000
Oh, I think they'll call themselves the Louis.

2020
01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:42.000
The Louis, okay. So I'm a Louis.

2021
01:53:42.000 --> 01:53:44.000
There we go. There we go.

2022
01:53:44.000 --> 01:53:46.000
Just rolls up the top.

2023
01:53:46.000 --> 01:53:48.000
We have a closing tradition on this podcast.

2024
01:53:48.000 --> 01:53:50.000
The next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for.

2025
01:53:50.000 --> 01:53:54.000
The question left for you. It's been a paragraph, but I'm going to give it my best shot.

2026
01:53:54.000 --> 01:54:00.000
If you are truly prioritizing the most important things in your life,

2027
01:54:00.000 --> 01:54:02.000
brackets, EG family,

2028
01:54:02.000 --> 01:54:05.000
and we only have limited time and effort to give,

2029
01:54:05.000 --> 01:54:08.000
if you are a high achiever and performer,

2030
01:54:08.000 --> 01:54:12.000
have you prioritized the most important thing?

2031
01:54:14.000 --> 01:54:16.000
No, no, I haven't.

2032
01:54:16.000 --> 01:54:18.000
I haven't.

2033
01:54:18.000 --> 01:54:22.000
But I would, I would, I would, it's really tough on to answer.

2034
01:54:22.000 --> 01:54:26.000
It requires some true, true honesty.

2035
01:54:26.000 --> 01:54:30.000
Those are the things that really, really matter.

2036
01:54:30.000 --> 01:54:34.000
For a star, I spent a lot of my,

2037
01:54:34.000 --> 01:54:40.000
a lot of my later teen years and early adult life in one direction.

2038
01:54:40.000 --> 01:54:46.000
So I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't really in the headspace for the ball

2039
01:54:46.000 --> 01:54:50.000
to have dropped for how important certain things are.

2040
01:54:50.000 --> 01:54:52.000
When you're younger, you're super literal, right?

2041
01:54:52.000 --> 01:54:54.000
If I drink this alcohol and get really drunk,

2042
01:54:54.000 --> 01:54:56.000
and I feel good, then that's good, right?

2043
01:54:56.000 --> 01:54:58.000
Then you get a bit older and you realize, oh, maybe it's not so good.

2044
01:54:58.000 --> 01:55:00.000
So like any of those kind of things,

2045
01:55:00.000 --> 01:55:06.000
I suppose now I understand how important,

2046
01:55:06.000 --> 01:55:10.000
you know, looking out for yourself is and mental health.

2047
01:55:10.000 --> 01:55:14.000
But also, you know, I've always been a family guy.

2048
01:55:14.000 --> 01:55:20.000
But I mean, actually deeply cherishing those moments as well.

2049
01:55:20.000 --> 01:55:22.000
So I definitely could have done that more as a young lad.

2050
01:55:22.000 --> 01:55:24.000
But I think that's probably the case of a lot of young people

2051
01:55:24.000 --> 01:55:26.000
that they probably reflect and think, well,

2052
01:55:26.000 --> 01:55:28.000
I should have done that more as a, as a young person.

2053
01:55:28.000 --> 01:55:30.000
But the truth is the ball doesn't really drop chair.

2054
01:55:30.000 --> 01:55:32.000
You don't realize how important those,

2055
01:55:32.000 --> 01:55:34.000
all those little intricacies are.

2056
01:55:34.000 --> 01:55:36.000
Because also when you're young, everything's so new.

2057
01:55:36.000 --> 01:55:38.000
So you just, like, the law is so much sexier on the other side.

2058
01:55:38.000 --> 01:55:40.000
It all looks a new thing here, new thing here, new thing here.

2059
01:55:40.000 --> 01:55:44.000
Whereas, I think it takes a bit of age and experience

2060
01:55:44.000 --> 01:55:46.000
to look at those things go, oh, actually,

2061
01:55:46.000 --> 01:55:48.000
maybe I haven't been spending my time correctly.

2062
01:55:48.000 --> 01:55:52.000
Yeah, I mean, you said it perfectly.

2063
01:55:52.000 --> 01:55:54.000
And it really held the mirror up to me to be honest,

2064
01:55:54.000 --> 01:55:58.000
because I think, you know, you said you haven't perfectly

2065
01:55:58.000 --> 01:56:00.000
prioritized the most important things.

2066
01:56:00.000 --> 01:56:06.000
But you're certainly prioritizing the most than, more than most people.

2067
01:56:06.000 --> 01:56:08.000
You know, because I hear about how much time,

2068
01:56:08.000 --> 01:56:10.000
how much effort you put into making sure you spend time with Freddie

2069
01:56:10.000 --> 01:56:14.000
and your sister described you as always being family centric.

2070
01:56:14.000 --> 01:56:16.000
And that's a really, really beautiful thing.

2071
01:56:16.000 --> 01:56:18.000
Louis, thank you so much.

2072
01:56:18.000 --> 01:56:20.000
I can't be more excited to listen to the album.

2073
01:56:20.000 --> 01:56:22.000
With all the context that we've described,

2074
01:56:22.000 --> 01:56:24.000
and also understanding of where you've arrived at in your life now,

2075
01:56:24.000 --> 01:56:26.000
and how your perspective has developed,

2076
01:56:26.000 --> 01:56:28.000
and all that lived experience has poured into a beautifully,

2077
01:56:28.000 --> 01:56:30.000
uplifting, wonderful sound.

2078
01:56:30.000 --> 01:56:34.000
So thank you so much for the honor and the privilege of being able to have this conversation with you.

2079
01:56:34.000 --> 01:56:36.000
And just for being a really, a really on and off camera,

2080
01:56:36.000 --> 01:56:38.000
just a really, really sound guy.

2081
01:56:38.000 --> 01:56:40.000
Oh, nice one, man. I appreciate that.

2082
01:56:40.000 --> 01:56:42.000
Now, I really enjoyed it, man.

2083
01:56:42.000 --> 01:56:44.000
I really, really flew by, though.

2084
01:56:44.000 --> 01:56:46.000
We've been talking for some time.

2085
01:56:46.000 --> 01:56:48.000
Yeah, it's a good one.

2086
01:56:48.000 --> 01:56:50.000
Thank you so much.

2087
01:56:50.000 --> 01:56:52.000
Make sure you keep what I'm about to say to yourself.

2088
01:56:52.000 --> 01:56:54.000
I'm inviting 10,000 of you to come even deeper into the diorevasia.

2089
01:56:54.000 --> 01:56:56.000
Welcome to my inner circle.

2090
01:56:56.000 --> 01:57:00.000
This is a brand new private community that I'm launching to the world.

2091
01:57:00.000 --> 01:57:02.000
We have so many incredible things that happen,

2092
01:57:02.000 --> 01:57:04.000
that you are never shown.

2093
01:57:04.000 --> 01:57:06.000
We have the briefs that are on my pad when I'm recording the conversation.

2094
01:57:06.000 --> 01:57:08.000
We have clips we've never released.

2095
01:57:08.000 --> 01:57:10.000
We have behind the scenes conversations with the guests,

2096
01:57:10.000 --> 01:57:14.000
and also the episodes that we've never, ever released.

2097
01:57:14.000 --> 01:57:16.000
And so much more.

2098
01:57:16.000 --> 01:57:18.000
In the circle you'll have direct access to me,

2099
01:57:18.000 --> 01:57:20.000
you can tell us what you want this show to be,

2100
01:57:20.000 --> 01:57:22.000
who you want us to interview,

2101
01:57:22.000 --> 01:57:24.000
and the types of conversations you would love us to have.

2102
01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:28.000
But remember for now, we're only inviting the first 10,000 people

2103
01:57:28.000 --> 01:57:30.000
that joined before it closes.

2104
01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:32.000
So if you want to join our private close community,

2105
01:57:32.000 --> 01:57:34.000
head to the link in the description below,

2106
01:57:34.000 --> 01:57:36.000
or go to doccircle.com.

2107
01:57:36.000 --> 01:57:38.000
I will speak to you then.