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I've got a difficult conversation I want to have with somewhat, and they might be a narcissist.

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So let's stop there, because if you just blatantly label somebody as being a narcissist,

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you're not going to be able to really understand who this person is and why they are the way they are.

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But when you need to go into a dark conversation, to make things simple, there are four things that you can do.

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Because we all have those conversations. We have a supervisor who we feel is overlooking us in a promotion.

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Maybe our spouse we got in a fight with, your friend who's betrayed us,

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and they're cloaked in so much emotion or so much tension that you don't know how to handle that.

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But there's also three things that you should stop doing,

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such as stop telling people you understand.

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Telling them you understand.

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Yep, why?

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This is what we're going to talk about.

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For over 30 years, former Secret Service agent Desmond O'Neal has used science-backed

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interrogation techniques against some of the world's biggest liars.

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He's trained elite teams from the FBI to the CIA.

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And now, in his first public conversation, he's laying out the frameworks you need to communicate

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effectively, how to lead, and how to get anyone to open up.

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When it comes to being able to communicate with somebody,

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they're ready to realize, and the little things that you do,

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so you need to have a plan.

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P is for purpose.

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So why are you there?

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What is the goal of the conversation?

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Because especially in emotional conversations,

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it becomes really easy to get distracted.

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And if you lose your cool, you lose control.

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And then there's the A's to ask.

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Because most of us think we know what our partner is thinking, right?

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But the research shows we're only accurate about 40% of the time.

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And if that conversation gets emotional,

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that 40% can go down as low as 15.

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It's called empathy accuracy.

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And so the power of asking questions is important.

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But when you fail to do that, you are going to have a really hard time

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having a deep, honest relationship with somebody.

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And then there's the L in the end.

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Most people do wrong, and we'll go into that.

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And then what about body language?

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Can you tell if I'm being deceptive by how much I look at someone?

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So there's a few indicators of somebody telling the truth,

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and we'll talk about them.

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And what about leadership principles?

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So I learned the true essence of leadership when I was on a SWAT team

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from situations like when you're hunting someone and they're hunting you as well.

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So let's get into the details.

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Just give me 30 seconds of your time.

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Two things I wanted to say.

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The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show

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week after week means the world to all of us.

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And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had

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and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

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But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

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And if you enjoy what we do here,

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please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly

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and follow us on this app.

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Here's a promise I'm going to make to you.

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I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can

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now and into the future.

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We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to

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and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

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Thank you.

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Desmond O'Neal.

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For those people that have just clicked on to this conversation,

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what are they going to walk away from our discussion with?

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So I've been a law enforcement for 30 years and I've served a lot of different roles in that.

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And above everything else, one thing that I've learned is when

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stress is high, when emotions are strong, when it matters,

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how do you authentically connect and communicate with somebody else?

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There's something to be said about when a conversation is easy, right?

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When it's fun, when everybody wants to be there, you can focus on your handshake,

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you can focus on the eye contact, how great your posture is.

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What about the dark conversations?

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What about those conversations that kind of, they live in the shadows of your mind

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because you don't want to face them.

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You don't want to have those, right?

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They're cloaked in so much emotion or so much tension that you just,

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you don't know how to handle that.

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We all have that, right?

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We have a supervisor who we feel is overlooking us in a promotion.

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We have a family member who we feel that we're just no longer getting along with,

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maybe our spouse we got in a fight with, maybe a friend who's betrayed us.

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So how do you have that conversation?

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What does it look like?

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Because it comes from, for the 30 years that I've been doing this,

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most of the people that I talk to didn't want to talk to me.

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And my job was to connect with them, to find a way to get them to open up,

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to find a way to have some type of understanding and get the information that I need it.

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So this is not about interview and interrogation.

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This is, this is human connection.

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If your audience cares to understand how to have a dark conversation where

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you can deepen that relationship or at least come to some type of understanding

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or at the very least not walk away,

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ruminate on everything you said, trying to figure out what went wrong,

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what could you have done different?

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If you've had that and you're interested in knowing, then this is what we're going to talk about that.

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And to summarize in, I guess, 30 seconds, why you're the guy that is best placed to deliver

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this information? What are the reference points, the experiences, the variety of experience you've

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had that feeds into the answers and the actionable advice you're going to give to my audience?

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My initial career started as a corrections officer.

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I became a police officer and I was a SWAT officer as well.

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From there, I went to the Federal Government, so I went to the Secret Service.

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With the Secret Service, I also started a polygraph career.

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So now I have people that are giving me either deepest, darkest secrets.

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And just for context, polygraphing is a lie detection task.

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Polygraph is a lie detection task.

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So it gives you a psychological or a physiological response in terms of how somebody answers a particular

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question. Where else did your career take you after that point?

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I went into internal affairs. And so that is now policing the people within our organization.

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So now I'm talking to men and women who have had some of my interrogation training.

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They kind of know the questioning going on. They know the interaction. They've done themselves

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interviews and interrogations. Oh, okay. So this is law enforcement officers who have committed a

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crime or some kind of misconduct issue or reported for something. And your job is to investigate them.

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Yes, but think about that for a minute. Like you are now talking to somebody else who

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maybe a year ago you were out in the street doing work with. And now you're asking them

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these questions or these for clarification on some type of allegation.

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You got to be mindful with that. That's a big deal.

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And the interview methods that were prevalent at that time you felt were outdated.

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They were. So there is in the US there's a very historical evolution of interview and interrogation.

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You know, it started in the 1900s when policing came in. In that circumstance,

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it was physical abuse. They called it a third degree where you would go in and you know,

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people would grind down your teeth or they would cause pain for you to talk to them.

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As we've evolved as a society, that started to go away in

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lieu of psychological manipulation. So it was less about hands-on and more about trying to get

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people to talk to you from a psychological perspective. And right about 2014 when I went into

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internal affairs, I was like, Stephen, I was like, there's got to be something different.

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Like we've had to evolve in some way in terms of what that is. And so, you know,

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you have my thesis there, right? Right about that time, I was accepted into the Naval Postgraduate

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School to pursue a Master's. And because I was looking for a better way to interview,

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one of my thesis advisors said, hey, have you ever heard of the high value,

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detainee and interrogation group, which the acronym is HIGG had never heard of it,

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but the HIGG when it was created was three-prong, meaning that it had a research department,

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right? It had a practitioner department, so the people that would do the interrogations,

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and then it had a trainer department. Now, the trainer department, we would do interviews

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interrogations, but we also understood the science behind that. The reason that's important is

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because you could be a really good practitioner and not understand why something Israel isn't working.

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And so, being able to cross the bridge between the science and understanding that,

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and being able to apply it in the room, that hybrid, that connection, that sweet spot,

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that is what I did. So, you did research and you continue to do research on how to get people

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to give information, how to get information from people, how to get them to offer up information.

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Is that the crux of it? Yeah. So, if I'm, you know, I've got a difficult conversation I want

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to have with someone. This person is antagonistic. They often gas like me. They might be a narcissist.

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And I'm walking into that conversation. I'm, you know, I'm overthinking it. I'm thinking, God,

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I can need to have this conversation. Where's the first place to start?

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So, the first place that I would start is don't label the people how you just label them.

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Okay. And that's a problem. So, you just labeled somebody narcissists. Why does that matter to you?

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I think it allows me to blame them, I guess. It allows you to, but tell me in your perspective,

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what's a narcissist? They are, they are low empathy. They are self-centred. They are a little bit

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aggressive, maybe. Okay. So, let's stop there. Do you think personally that there are times in your

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life where you lack empathy? Yeah. Okay. So, empathy is very situationally based. So, meaning that

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it's also subjective. Meaning that if you feel this person is not giving you certain empathy.

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Okay. Maybe a bit self-centered, a bit aggressive. The reason I ask you these things is because if you

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just blatantly label somebody as being like this person as a narcissist, you've just made it easy

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for yourself. You've just put blame on them and you're not going to be able to really understand

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who this person is and why they are the way they are. So, the first thing that I would do is I

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would take away the labels as how you define them as you're going into that. What was the other

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thing you said in terms of what they were? They were a narcissist. They were something else.

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They gaslight. So, second thing, which is interesting because we actually within our training

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program, we just did a big class in gaslighting because it's important to understand

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what is gaslighting and when is it not gaslighting? So, for you, because you said this person gaslight

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you, what are the gaslighting you about? When I bring something up, they make me feel like

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I'm to blame. When I bring up high-field, maybe they make me feel like I'm to blame, like I did

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something wrong. Okay. Does that always happen? We're often than not. Okay, more often than not. So,

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it's something that it sounds like that when you go in and you're talking to this different person,

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whatever the circumstances is, they are trying to discredit you or make you feel like maybe you

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don't know really what happened. They're not listening. They're always throwing it back on me saying

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that I did something to deserve it. And what was the third thing you said? It's a little bit like

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aggressive antagonistic. Okay. Their emotions go up and it kind of makes me shut down.

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Okay. They kind of flood the zone. So, when you need to go into a dark conversation,

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here are the fourth things that you can do to stay engaged and involved in what's about to happen.

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Right. And how this is going to hopefully go through. And what we say is you need to have a plan.

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And there's the acronym about that P, right? L-A-N. So, the P is for purpose. And the purpose is

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why are you there? What's the reason? What's the mission? You have to understand your mission because

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your mission is going to drive your tactics. Your mission is going to determine if things get off

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track. If this person becomes aggressive, this person starts to be insulting. If my mission at that

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moment is to deepen my conversation with them, deepen my relationship in some way, and this starts

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to get ugly in the middle, your mission should keep you on track because you can get pulled from

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that very quickly. There's something called multiple goals theory. And multiple goals theory is

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the understanding that at any given time, we will pursue simultaneous goals. And typically,

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those goals would be something task oriented. I want to finish a task and I want to get something

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done. There's going to be a component of identity in there, meaning that how do I feel? What are my

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motions going on during the course of this? And then there's going to be relational. So, it's going

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to be my relationship with this person at the time. Now, a lot of times within multiple goals theory,

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those things can align. And I'll give you an example. If you're playing a sport, you're on a team.

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The team goal, your goal within that team, the task is to win, to put on more points than

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the other person. That's the task. The identity aspect of that is, am I a good player? Do I want the

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ball? Do I get the ball? Am I contributing? Am I the superstar? Is there some type of identity

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in how this makes me feel about myself being a sports star in some capacity? And the relationship

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part of that is, how do my teammates feel about me? Am I a good teammate in terms of what

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there was? Those things can align. You can see when that is misaligned, when all of a sudden,

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somebody would call a ball hog, somebody takes the shot all the time or they won't pass it around

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and you're like, what are you doing? And it's one of these things where you are more concerned about

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your identity than you are about the team winning. That's a problem. That's when you can see there's

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a misalignment of goals or something that's even more simple would be, let's say you're in a meeting

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with a boss or a colleague and it's a pretty important meeting. You're trying to close a deal

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and your boss is something that's wrong. Now, you have to make a decision. You could either

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correct your boss in front of everybody or you could preserve his or her dignity and address

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them at a later time. You have to decide which one of those is most important. You have to understand

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your purpose of being in that meeting because maybe I could let this go. It's not that big of a deal

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because if I correct my boss, this may affect my relationship with them at a later time. This could

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ruin my career in terms of being transferred or not being on a project. So when you're looking at

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goals, you have to understand what the overall objective is. It becomes Steven. It becomes especially

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in emotional conversations. It becomes really easy to get distracted, really easy.

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So I go into that conversation with my colleague who is problematic. My goal with them, let's say,

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is to get them to stop. I'm actually thinking about earlier in my career when I used to work in

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call centers on the phone. There was one particular lady that's that next to me that was always

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a little bit rude and always put me down a little bit, but patronising. I in hindsight wish I could have

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taken her aside and had a conversation with her and said, listen, the way you're speaking to

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me is very disrespectful. You're putting me down a patronising me. Please, can you stop doing that?

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My goal would have been to get her to stop. It is to get her to do that, but the crux of that is

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to understand why she's doing it because that's going to allow me to fix this in some way if it's

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fixable. I'll share the story with you. In 1991, an 11-year-old girl named JC Dewguard was kidnapped

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by a man named Philip Gerito and his wife Nancy. Philip and Nancy kept JC Dewguard for 18 years.

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He fathered two children with her when she was 14 and when she was 17. In 2009, they found her

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in him at Berkeley. They arrested him, arrested his wife. 2011, he was tried convicted. Three years

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prior to that, there was a young girl named Michaela Garrett who had gone missing, never been found

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in a county over in West West of El Dorado in a county named Alameda County. There was a lot of

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suspicion that Philip was the one who did this as well. One of my colleagues was the

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prosecuting attorney for El Dorado County, California. His name is Vern Pearson. Vern said,

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I'd like to close this or get some type of understanding. Can you go and interview Philip?

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So I looked at all the informational Philip. He had written a manifesto in terms of how to cure

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pedophilia. I went to Vern and I said, all right, let's go do this. He goes, what do you need?

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A day, a couple of hours, and I said, I need four days. My goal was to do a deep dive into the

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things that he had done. He was a serial rapist, a serial kidnapper, and to understand his life

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in the time frame by which Michaela Garrett went missing. And so this was the evolution of what I was

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trying to do. So I show up. He walks in, says, who are you? I said, well, I'm a special

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regional nail. I'd like to talk to you about your history. I read your manifesto and I had some

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questions. And he said, you know, when they told me I had a visitor, he goes, I wasn't going to come

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in. He goes, but the angels on my shoulder tell me that this would be a good, good talk. So

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he said, let's do it. We talked in detail every day for probably eight to nine hours. They brought

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him food. And the end of each day, I would say, Philip, I will be here tomorrow. If the,

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if the angels on your shoulder tell you to show up, please do. If not, then it was nice to meet you.

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And every day he showed up. Why did you say not? There's a depth of understanding in terms of

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the headspace that he is in. And so when you can connect, like genuinely connect with that,

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you truly try to understand it as a person and there's power with that in the course of those

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36 hours. Multiple times, he was very aggressive. He was very condescending. He called me a liar.

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Things he accused me of, you know, I don't believe you are who you say you are. I don't believe

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you're here for the things you're saying you're here for. I don't even know if you work for the

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federal government. And he's essentially questioned my integrity. Now, my purpose is not to make him

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feel that I'm smarter than him is not to belittle or berate him or have a question of, you know,

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integrity. Because I could have said you kidnapped an 11 year old girl and kept her captive for 18

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years. Father two children with her the first one at the age of 14. And your question of my

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integrity, I didn't do that because that's not why I was there. And so despite the fact that he

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got upset, despite the fact that he called me and accused me of all these different things,

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I stayed on my purpose. I stayed on my mission. And when we were done, when we finished, I went back

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the prosecuting attorney and said, he's not your guy. And he said, are you sure? And I said,

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I bet my career on it. How did you know? There's a lot of things in regards to when you're looking at

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people from the perspective of telling the truth in terms of the way that they talk and engage

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with you. Our conversation on Tuesday and our conversation on Wednesday and our conversation

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on Thursday and our conversation on Friday all stayed very consistent. If I'm asking him for further

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clarification, he's providing for further clarification. If I'm talking to him about, you know,

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something and there's some type of spontaneous correction where he's like, wait a minute,

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this happened before this, those are indicators of truth. And if there are things that,

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you know, he talks about in terms of like things that are of complication, nobody's day goes perfect.

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And, you know, there are many times when he was telling me about the things he had done because,

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you know, he was a serial rapist, you know, and a serial kidnapper. And he would drive around and

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pick up women and hitchhiking and he would, you know, rape them and let them go. Oftentimes,

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we would get in the details of like when those didn't go well, right? And when all of a sudden,

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the girl would would fight him off and run away. And so there's all these different complications

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and different things that he would talk about. He handled the complications consistently, as

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we were saying. When complications are introduced to a story, right? People who lie don't do that,

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right? It's truth tellers will often do that because it's just like this is just what happened.

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Like these are the things that happen. This is my life in terms of where things were going to go.

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Overall, in terms of how that conversation went, there are those type of indicators that just made

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it trend more truthful than not. Like there wasn't this big gap or this big weird moment when

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we're talking about McCaley Garrett to where all of a sudden it's like missing pieces that I have to

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put in there. There are no cues to deception. There are things that all of a sudden seem different

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and require you to do more questions more asking, but that didn't occur around the time that we

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were looking for with that. So we finally, when we finished and then they went back and they

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looked at the evidence, they found a new fingerprint and were able to charge and convict the person

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who did that. The reason I bring all of that up is because for the purpose aspects of what we're

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talking about, not losing sight of what your mission is, being focused in terms of what that is,

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the power of communication and staying online as it relates to what you want to accomplish

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is really powerful because it keeps you on track and it keeps you engaged and reminds you

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of why you're there. Not every relationship deserves that. Like there's just some relationships

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you're like, this just isn't worth it for me. If it matters to you, that mattered to me. It

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mattered to me not because for me, it mattered to me before that family. And there is a difference

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between having a profession and being a professional. Having a profession is what you do. Being

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a professional is the culmination of everything that you've done at that moment, at that time,

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for a specific purpose. That's what I had to bring in with that because that was what was at stake

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with us. So you have these four cards in front of you. We've done the P, which is staying focused

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on your purpose when you go into conversation to fend off the emotion, which might distort you and

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take you off course. And I'm so guilty of that. Everybody is. So guilty of that with, especially with

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like, you know, conversations with my partner where there's emotion involved in this. So sorry

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it's where, you know, blame might be prevalent. So the L that you have there. So the L is listen,

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this becomes the thing that people are worse at because it's a lot to do. Think about right now.

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Think about my conversation with you at this moment. I'm speaking. So internally, my internal

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vocabulary and the conversation that I'm having in my head is running about 800 to a thousand words

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a minute. I'm speaking to you in about 120 to 150 words a minute. There's a lot that's being edited.

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There's a lot of things that I think that I'm saying or I want to say I'm trying to engage with you.

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There's also something called theory of mind, which is me watching you and trying to understand

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is what I'm saying on point with what Stephen wants to hear or wants to hear for his audience.

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Do I need to change anything? Is this landing on him? And then if you're nonverbal's change or

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your verbal's changed, then I have to readjust maybe what I'm editing and my theory of mind will

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readjust too because I'm like, oh, I just lost him here. I have to readjust simultaneously.

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You are listening to me and you're listening to the 120 to 150 words I'm giving you. But your brain

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can process this at like four to 600 words per minute. So you have too much cognitive bandwidth.

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You have the ability to listen to me and then do multiple other things, which is oftentimes why

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people will drift out or you'll start thinking something else or you'll think of your note pad

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because you got it. You got to figure it out. And this is when it becomes really easy to

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be convinced and not curious because you're like, I kind of know where this is going. And so you

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check out. So you actually have to do something called cognitive inhibition. You have to kind of

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narrow that bandwidth to stay fully engaged with me. That's why when you hear people say like

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active listening, it's hard. It's hard to do because you have to be attentive to the other person.

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You have to listen. You have to look. You have to pick up their verbal and their nonverbal behavior.

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And then you have to do something with that. Steven Covey says most people don't listen with the intent

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to understand they listen with the intent to reply. And if you are simply just waiting for your

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turn to talk, then you and I are not are not connecting. Control in conversation comes from listening

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not talking. So if I'm trying to get some information out of someone, I should have a bias towards

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just letting them speak at me. You should. You know, you hear about this like always let the other

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person talk more. That's great. But if both people are doing that, then the conversation is not

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progressing. The conversation is an extension of what you and I are speaking with. And when we've

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gone from listening in terms of what that looks like, the next thing you have to do, which gets

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into this is the A, which is, which is ask, right? So the A being this, if you are paying attention to

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me and you're picking up on things that I'm saying, the changes in my body language. And there's

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something you don't understand. You need to ask. This is where you're going to deepen the conversation.

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This is where you show somebody that you're active listening, you're curious and you're open and

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you're trying to understand them. If you look at empathy research, we typically think that we can

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understand our significant other or different people at a much higher level than we actually do. For

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a stranger, it's called, it's called empathy accuracy. For a stranger, your ability to understand

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their head space is like 20% for a friend, somebody close to you, it's like 30. For your significant

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other, it's no higher than 40%, which means that despite you thinking that you know what she's

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thinking, you got a four out of 10 chance of being right. And if that conversation gets emotional,

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that 40% can go down as low as 15 because you start to pull in to be like, I'm guarding myself

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here. I'm guarding my ego. When your ego is on the line, your ears go offline because you stop

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hearing what she's having to say and you start protecting yourself in terms of what you're trying to

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do. So your ability to be empathetic when things are hard becomes harder and you have to be very

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mindful of that. Let's say you come home from early morning workout and your spouse says, hey,

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Steven, how was it? And you say, that's pretty tough. So a lot that you can do with that. This is

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what she could do. She could say nothing. So now maybe you understand that maybe she doesn't want

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to talk about this or she's not interested in it. That's one. The second thing she could say to

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you, be like, well, sweetheart, that's why you look the way you do. She has now made the assumption,

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right? Her empathy accuracy that she knows what you meant by the word tough. And so if she says

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to you, well, that's how you look and that's not what you meant. Now you feel there's a separation

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between what you're hoping she would pick up on and what you actually said. The third thing she could

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say would be like, what do you mean by tough? Because the ambiguity of that is the word tough.

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Who knows what that means? It could be a lot of different things. She's now showing you, I'm

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end to you. I'm tuning in in the power of something like that. When you talk about deepening

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relationships and increasing that connection, that's how it happens. The same thing with your

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nonverbal behavior, right? You look at nonverbal behavior 66% of what we give is nonverbal. And so

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if I through the course of my conversation with you, if all of a sudden we're talking and you're

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just like folding my arms. So folding your arms could be a sign of just your folding your arms.

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It could be a sign of you not liking my question if you roll your eyes. So if I see that and it

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matters to me, then I need to say something to the effect of it seems like versus I think,

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because I think is the pronoun saying it's about me and it's just like I don't care what you think.

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It seems like what you just did maybe was because you didn't like what I had to say,

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because I saw you cross your arms or roll your eyes. Do I have that right? So now you have a choice

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where you can either say, yes, you got that right for these reasons or no, I just followed

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them because I was comfortable and whatever the case may be. But it isn't matter if I see you,

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and it's in harmony with the conversation that we were having that seems like it's something

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that shows that it could be potentially a problem. I need to ask about it. You and I have

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an conversation right now and you folding your arms isn't going to be like a red flag that I'm

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like, oh, I just saw you folded your arms when I said that. But if it's something that there's

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some emotion to lay it around that and it's important and I'm trying to express something to you

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when I see you roll your eyes or cross your arms. Hey, Steve, and I noticed when I brought up

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this thing about our family, you kind of lean back and cross your arms and roll your eyes.

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It seems like you didn't approve of that. Do I have that right? So now it's on you to explain

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that or not. On this point of body language, as someone that sits here and I guess interviews people

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for like four or five hours at a time, sometimes over the last five years I have come to learn

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certain body language patterns in my guests. One of the most obvious ones is when I ask the guest

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a question that is causing them some potential discomfort in some way. And when I say discomfort,

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I should probably define that as maybe it's a difficult question for whatever reason. Sure.

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What I tend to see is I tend to see them cross their arms. That's like a really consistent pattern.

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It's almost like it's almost as if they're telling me that this is a little bit difficult

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and it holds to be true. Do you ask them? I notice when you cross your arms,

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you know, when I ask you that question, is it something with this question that bothered you?

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Or do you just let it go? I let it go, but they've already told me.

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So I don't need to ask them because I now know that there's something there where there's

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emotion. Sure. It's kind of the way that I see it. It's what it is. More than likely it's what it is.

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And I think there's power to that because your perception, right? So you bring this back,

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like your pattern recognition of all the guests that you've done and the association or the

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the connection of that in terms of the question that you ask and they cross your arms,

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like that's where that comes from. That's where that all of a sudden that thing where you're just

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like, I feel it, but they don't really know it. It's just like, you don't know that to be the

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case because it could be a number of different things. But because of the pattern recognition you

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see it all the time, that gives you the chance of saying this is there's some emotion here. So either

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engage it or tread lightly depending on which way you want to go.

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Both. Yeah. And that's what happened. So instead of saying, like, you know, why did you cross

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your arms? I will ask them potentially how that memory makes them feel. They feel about that.

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And that tends to be, it's just, it's so, you know, because people always talk, you know,

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does body language matter? Does it count for anything? Can you interpret someone's body language

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to understand if they're telling you the truth? Is any of this stuff true? And you're in your view?

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No. You should, you should look at body language because it is a language in terms of what somebody

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is is showing you. You look at body language. And if you see something that is a change just like

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the cross in your arms, then you need to be curious about it. So it's really about a change in

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state. It's a change of, it's a change of what somebody is doing and the timing of that. So you

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just said, like, when I asked something that is personal or emotional, they'll talk about it,

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they'll cross their arms because maybe it's just now like the psychological thing where I want to

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guard myself a little bit, maybe I want to kind of close up a little bit. Who knows? But if it's

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something where you're just like, I noticed it and you don't need to use it, like you could ask

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them if you wanted to, but you're just like, oh, they already, they already told me so I don't need

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it. But for anybody else, if you see that and you're talking and somebody crosses their arms,

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don't just assume that's what it is because if you assume and you're wrong, you're going down the

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wrong track. And so throughout this framework for having high conversations, we've covered the P,

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which is, stitch your purpose, the L, the list, which is listen, A, which is to ask,

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ask. Is there anything else in the framework? The N, which is the next steps. So

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to have a plan means to understand all of these different things and the way that you approach

397
00:31:55.120 --> 00:32:00.320
that. And the next steps is, how do you want to resolve this? Like, what's the end goal with this?

398
00:32:00.320 --> 00:32:06.080
Is there anything that I can do that we can, you know, further our relationship? We're both

399
00:32:06.080 --> 00:32:10.960
you and I can, can be an alignment. Do you ask them? Would you propose? I would always ask them.

400
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:16.160
If I'm engaged, right? So perhaps let's go back to the, the conversation that you may have with,

401
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.040
you know, this, this individual, you're just like this person's a narcissist and so forth.

402
00:32:20.320 --> 00:32:24.000
If you're engaging them and you're the one who wants to really have this conversation,

403
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:28.560
and you're hoping that you can find some type of resolution, you have to ask if there's

404
00:32:28.560 --> 00:32:33.120
resolution with that. So if something to the effect of, do you think that you and I can find an

405
00:32:33.120 --> 00:32:37.680
amicable way forward when I, when you and I engage, you know, we can really enjoy each other's

406
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:42.640
time and this thing not go bad. Like, do you see that in our future at all? Yes or no? And then

407
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:47.120
it's either yes, okay, what does that look like for us? Like, how do we have that? Because I am,

408
00:32:47.120 --> 00:32:51.280
I'm having this conversation with you because my relationship with you matters. But there are

409
00:32:51.280 --> 00:32:56.640
things that happen within that are, that are frustrating and that cause me not to really want to engage.

410
00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:00.960
I do want to find a way to do that because that is most important to me. How best do we do that?

411
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:05.920
There is no magic bullet by which makes everything, every conversation go perfect. There's none.

412
00:33:06.800 --> 00:33:10.880
You are, you are part of that conversation. The other person is part of that conversation.

413
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:16.640
You have your perspective. They have their perspective. You have what you think is right or

414
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:22.240
think is fair. Fairness is subjective because what you think is fair is just means what you think

415
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:28.240
is fair. And so the hardest part is to walk away and feeling like you should, there should have

416
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:34.000
done more you can do. The power becomes knowing how to address that. And if it doesn't go right,

417
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:37.840
then you walk away and be like, you know what? It just didn't go right. And I'm okay with that.

418
00:33:37.840 --> 00:33:42.800
What if they start insulting you in the conversation? Okay. What's your purpose of being in the conversation?

419
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:48.080
I'm trying to get them to stop being so rude to me when we're at on the same bank of

420
00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:55.280
telephones at the call center. So it is a matter of, if she's being rude to you, it's addressing that

421
00:33:55.280 --> 00:34:00.000
at the moment, right? You know, I noticed that we're having this conversation that you're being

422
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:05.280
really aggressive, really rude and really kind of sending. So you cool it out. Yeah. Be very

423
00:34:05.280 --> 00:34:09.600
specific in terms of what it is. Like, you know, if she, if she calls you and she uses, you know,

424
00:34:09.600 --> 00:34:12.720
she calls you a name or whatever the case may be, like, you know, what you're being rude and she's

425
00:34:12.720 --> 00:34:16.160
just like, what are you doing? You're like, you're just being rude. That's unhelpful. Like,

426
00:34:16.160 --> 00:34:21.440
give her the context by which you feel that she's being rude because maybe she does something

427
00:34:21.520 --> 00:34:25.360
outside of a name where you're like, you're being rude and maybe to her, that's not rudeness.

428
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:28.560
Maybe it's her directness, right? But if she's like, you know what, you're

429
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:33.440
Steven, you're just an asshole or whatever the case may be. And I would say, hey, it seems like

430
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:36.800
either right now, like, you know, you're very kind of sending. You've called me a name to include

431
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:42.800
an asshole. Can you explain to me specifically right now why that is? And make her back it up.

432
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:47.280
Make her explain to you what it is that is there something about, is there something about me you

433
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.280
don't like? Is there something about my work ethic that you don't like or maybe the way that I'm

434
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:56.960
doing this? You've been here longer than me. So as perhaps there's something else that I'm doing

435
00:34:56.960 --> 00:35:02.880
or not doing that you think is wrong because I am not understanding your anger and your venom

436
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:08.480
and your need to consult me. And I really try to understand what that is. So you're having a very

437
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:13.840
direct conversation with her. Very specific to what she's saying. It does not mean that that's going

438
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:19.440
to fix it. She could just be an asshole. And it's one of those things where you have to be like,

439
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:24.880
I am going to dress this. I'm not going to return in kind. I don't have to turn into that person

440
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:29.520
as well. I can walk away from that conversation and be like, you know what, I handle that the best I

441
00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:35.040
could. Doesn't mean it's going to fix it. Are there any tactics that interrogators are taught or

442
00:35:35.040 --> 00:35:40.960
that you teach interrogators for keeping your emotions in check? Because, you know, we go into

443
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:45.520
this conversation, someone calls you an asshole, your cortisol starts spiking, you get into your

444
00:35:45.520 --> 00:35:49.360
and make the lady get stressed, you get emotional, you end up calling them an asshole back. But is

445
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:53.840
that, I don't know, is that breath work? What did interrogators get taught? In the heat of the moment,

446
00:35:55.040 --> 00:36:00.080
at that time, you have no time to do breath work. This is real time stuff in terms of what you're

447
00:36:00.080 --> 00:36:03.920
trying to do. If you go in and you understand your purpose, and again, I don't mean to go back to

448
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:08.880
the plan, but what happens is you become, you can be pulled out very quickly. And all of a sudden,

449
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:15.680
if you are trying to get information from somebody and one of their strategies, because they maybe

450
00:36:15.680 --> 00:36:20.400
don't want to give you information, one of their strategies is to insult you. And now you're insulting

451
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:25.680
them back. One, you're not going to get anything, two, you fell into their strategy. So what you have

452
00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:30.640
to do is you have to address that. I am something to the effect of, I see that when I ask you that,

453
00:36:30.640 --> 00:36:34.080
or all of a sudden, like it seems like there's a change in our relationship to where now you're

454
00:36:34.160 --> 00:36:40.320
being really aggressive, why is that? So you're continually cooling it out. Yes, because I am asking

455
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:47.680
you to back up your emotions, because if it's BS, if you're just doing that because you're trying

456
00:36:47.680 --> 00:36:51.920
to hide the ball someplace else, I'm going to call you out on it. It's also showing me that I am

457
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:58.240
not afraid to confront this type of behavior. And I'm seeing it. And I am, I am really trying to

458
00:36:58.240 --> 00:37:03.520
engage with you in a very amicable genuine way. And if you were going to treat me a certain way,

459
00:37:03.520 --> 00:37:07.280
I am going to understand what it is. You're also showing that you're not doing it in kind.

460
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:13.360
It's part of this showing that you're strong. It's less about being strong and more about being

461
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:18.000
competent and confident in what you're doing. Because if you allow

462
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:25.920
in anybody, not just an interrogation room and in any conversation, if you lose your cool,

463
00:37:26.720 --> 00:37:33.280
you lose control. You have to be mindful of that. I was overseeing an interl affairs interview.

464
00:37:33.600 --> 00:37:36.320
And I was going to go in and talk to this person at the end. I was thinking about doing a

465
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:41.440
polygraph with them. But before that was going to happen, the case agent, the person who had the

466
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:49.200
investigation was talking to the subject. It was a road rage incident where this agent had been

467
00:37:49.200 --> 00:37:54.640
accused of road rage and pulling his gun out on a civilian. So this was the conversation they were

468
00:37:54.640 --> 00:37:59.200
that they were having. And I'm listening to this in an interview room, right? And in terms of like

469
00:37:59.200 --> 00:38:07.200
a two way, two way mirror. And the subject is very aggressive. He's very angry. And he's very

470
00:38:07.200 --> 00:38:12.080
angry to the point of like, he's like, I don't know why you don't believe me with this. I keep telling

471
00:38:12.080 --> 00:38:17.840
these things and you keep asking me the same questions. I think this is a bunch of BS. The investigator

472
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:22.880
comes back and he's just like, because I think you're a liar. And you're not telling me the truth

473
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:28.400
in terms of what it is. And you're causing us to be in this room a lot longer. And this is a problem.

474
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:33.680
So now they're both yelling at each other, like yelling at each other. And it was one of these

475
00:38:33.680 --> 00:38:41.200
things where I'm watching this unfold. And it wasn't the subject's job to maintain his composer.

476
00:38:41.200 --> 00:38:47.920
It was the investigators because his goal is not to belittle this other agent. His goal was to find

477
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:53.280
out, did this or did this not happen? And he lost side of that. And he came out of the room to

478
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:56.160
mean he's like, what do you think? And I'm like, well, I'm not going to polygraph him. I mean,

479
00:38:56.160 --> 00:38:59.600
this guy's so emotional right now. Like that's not going to happen. And he goes, you know what?

480
00:38:59.600 --> 00:39:03.120
This guy's just an asshole anyway. And I'm like, I don't think he's the asshole in the room.

481
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:08.160
The other guy was the asshole in the room because he allowed himself to get pulled out of what he

482
00:39:08.160 --> 00:39:13.360
should have been doing because now he wanted to have the game of who's the bigger, who's the bigger

483
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:20.960
jerk in the room. You can do it. And again, if you want to burn that bridge, burn it. But if you want

484
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:26.000
to maintain a relationship or you want to maintain your profession or you are trying to get to some

485
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.040
resolution, you cannot lose your cool. I guess that's what it comes down to is most of the time.

486
00:39:31.040 --> 00:39:36.560
We're not clear on the goal going into the conversation. So we we have nothing to be anchored to.

487
00:39:36.560 --> 00:39:41.600
So it's just it's absolutely getting into the washing machine. Absolutely. We just spin around

488
00:39:41.600 --> 00:39:45.760
and around and around. It's absolutely walk away with the best relationship. And the power really

489
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:50.400
comes from if this person is insulting you and they're angry and they're doing these things

490
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:53.760
and you're sitting there and you're asking good questions, you're keeping your composure,

491
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:59.440
there is a lot of power with that. And I mean power in a way that shows like I'm in control of

492
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:06.960
myself. I am well aware of what's going on as this relationship and this conversation is happening.

493
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:11.920
I am not going to fall into this because this matters to me in terms of this other thing.

494
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:17.600
I've heard you say that you think people suffer from me, me, me syndrome. What does that mean?

495
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:27.600
So the me me syndrome is everything everything is about me, right? I mean, it seems obvious with that.

496
00:40:27.600 --> 00:40:32.560
But like you can even look at things from like a cultural perspective. You can look at like here,

497
00:40:32.560 --> 00:40:37.120
you know, in the US and Western civilizations, like we are primarily like a dignity culture.

498
00:40:37.120 --> 00:40:41.760
Well, we are it's all about us, right? It's all about that internal that internal feeling that

499
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:48.160
that we have. And so everything is predicated on our job, our success, the things that we do.

500
00:40:48.160 --> 00:40:53.280
The external world doesn't really matter in terms of our success or failure. So a lot of it is

501
00:40:54.400 --> 00:41:02.480
what is in your headspace and how do you manage that? Because the problem that I see and what I think

502
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:14.080
comes within communication is we do a lot of self reflection. We rarely do a lot of outward

503
00:41:14.080 --> 00:41:18.160
reflection on the other person. Some of the best negotiators there will spend more than half

504
00:41:18.160 --> 00:41:25.440
of their time thinking about somebody else. So a very personal story. When I was 21, my father passed

505
00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:32.640
away. And he had been battling cancer for three years. And so when he passed away, I have four

506
00:41:32.640 --> 00:41:36.640
siblings and my mom was there. So when he passed away, he passed away at home and all five of us were

507
00:41:36.640 --> 00:41:43.520
there. Several years later, I'm having this conversation on the day that my dad died about the day

508
00:41:43.520 --> 00:41:48.880
of my dad died. I'm having this with my my sister and my three younger brothers. And we're talking

509
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:54.720
about where we were and so forth. And my sister says, yeah, I can't watch the Simpsons without thinking

510
00:41:55.040 --> 00:42:01.600
of that. And I said, what do you mean? She's like, well, the TV was there and the Simpsons were on

511
00:42:01.600 --> 00:42:06.400
and she's like, I always just remember that. And I was like, there's a there's a TV in the room.

512
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:10.640
She's like, you don't remember TV being in the room. And I'm like, I have absolutely not.

513
00:42:10.640 --> 00:42:14.480
I have no idea that there's a TV in the room. I didn't code it. That wasn't the thing that was

514
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:20.800
important. Her perspective and the way that she saw that moment affected her differently than

515
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:26.080
everybody else in that room. And so to go back to the me, me, me, when you fail to take

516
00:42:26.080 --> 00:42:34.640
in consideration that other people have other experiences based on how they pick up the world,

517
00:42:34.640 --> 00:42:40.320
how they do things in the world. And you think that it's just about you. You're you're going to have

518
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:46.400
a really hard time having a deep, honest, connective relationship with somebody. If it's just about you,

519
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:50.960
you can do it. And a lot of people do it. You know, they're looking for that that way to

520
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:57.360
you know, make people drawn to them and make people connect to them. And that's fine. But if you are

521
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:03.920
trying to, I guess even if you just want to be like a genuine person and you want to have a

522
00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:08.880
relationship, don't make it about you. I've just finished writing my third book. I haven't

523
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:13.840
found up the title yet, but I have started walking up some different designs. And I've been doing

524
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:17.920
this with Adobe Express, which is one of our sponsors. What I love about Adobe Express is that it

525
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:22.800
makes it so easy for me to obsess over the tiniest details, the typography, the font, the color,

526
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:28.240
the text placement, the stuff that might sound petty to most people, but actually compounds to create

527
00:43:28.240 --> 00:43:33.520
something that stands out, something that's one better than the rest. And designing my cover art

528
00:43:33.520 --> 00:43:37.600
has reminded me of how many creative things I've learned over the year. But it's also reminded me

529
00:43:37.600 --> 00:43:42.480
that there are so many creative minds around me that are also sitting on their own secrets. So I've

530
00:43:42.560 --> 00:43:47.840
created the one better guide in Adobe Express to bring those tips to you. And in it, you'll find

531
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:52.720
principles from the very, very best in their industry turned into quick and easy practices for you

532
00:43:52.720 --> 00:43:57.840
to apply. So you can train yourself to create exactly like the best performing teams in the world do.

533
00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:04.000
Just head over to adobe.ly slash one better to download Adobe Express now. And make sure you

534
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:09.760
visit the Learn tab to discover how you can become one better than the rest. I was thinking this

535
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:13.440
earlier was thinking one of the things in the book of this book I said I've learned is if I

536
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:17.280
if I want to increase the probability that someone opens up and tells me something,

537
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:22.320
one of the things I do is I share myself. Yeah. So, you know, I might be asking someone about

538
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:26.560
their childhood. And it's quite clear to me now that one of the ways, especially if they end up

539
00:44:26.560 --> 00:44:30.560
crossing their arms and get them uncomfortable, is just a pause for a second and share my own childhood.

540
00:44:30.560 --> 00:44:34.480
Yeah. So if I've identified that one of your values is, I don't know, you want to be a good family

541
00:44:35.200 --> 00:44:40.960
might you mention that you're a family man yourself as a way to build a bridge. So if it's honest.

542
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:45.120
So, so that's a great question, but this becomes a thing where you have to look at things if you

543
00:44:45.120 --> 00:44:50.800
are trying to influence or manipulate somebody. If it's honest and it fits within that conversation

544
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:54.720
at that moment because this is what I based on a conversation I think this person needs to hear,

545
00:44:55.280 --> 00:45:01.280
then sure, if it's real, if it's not, if I'm lying to him because I'm trying to say, well,

546
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:04.960
I'm a family man, you're a family man like we're good. Now you're manipulating,

547
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:10.160
now you're manipulating the person. And that's a whole different conversation. So to go back to

548
00:45:10.160 --> 00:45:15.440
what you said, if I understand this guy's values and I understand that there is a sense of

549
00:45:18.160 --> 00:45:22.640
let's say a sense of honesty, maybe if there's a part of this person that's also honest or there's

550
00:45:22.640 --> 00:45:30.800
also a sense of he wants to be, I don't know, he wants his kids to see him as a man of integrity.

551
00:45:32.080 --> 00:45:36.560
Let's just say that. So maybe that starts to become a conversation that we have as it relates to,

552
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:43.760
I can only imagine the difficulty that this has with you. As you've told me, you're a family man,

553
00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:47.200
I'm not going to say you're a family man, I'm going to say as you told me you're a family man.

554
00:45:47.200 --> 00:45:52.320
And one of the things that you said about being a family man was how important is your kids to

555
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:58.880
to kind of like lead by your model, like your role model aspects of that, by honesty and openness

556
00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:02.960
and those type of things. So do you hear where I'm going? So I'm trending in the direction

557
00:46:03.600 --> 00:46:08.880
by which that I am trying to bring online still his father but a different value under what it

558
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:12.800
means to be a father. Because I don't want to talk about being present because that's probably

559
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:19.120
going to go away. But if he is trying to teach his kids to own your mistakes, then maybe that's

560
00:46:19.120 --> 00:46:23.200
the direction I go. But how am I going to get that? I'm going to get that because I'm going to start

561
00:46:23.200 --> 00:46:27.280
off my conversation with him in a very honest, genuine way that I'm going to try to understand

562
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:32.880
who is this person across from me? And what's the difference between manipulation and influence?

563
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:41.440
Influence is about nudging a person in a certain direction at a certain time that's beneficial

564
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:50.480
for both you and them. That's influence. Got it? Manipulation is you nudging a person in a specific

565
00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:57.440
direction because it's good for you. It's not good for them. And so you'll lie, you'll do whatever

566
00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:02.160
you need to do to close the deal, to get them to do something, to give them to give you something.

567
00:47:02.160 --> 00:47:07.200
That's manipulation because it's often one of those things that it has negative consequences to

568
00:47:07.200 --> 00:47:11.600
it in terms of the person who did it. Maybe they never know, but you manipulated them.

569
00:47:11.600 --> 00:47:16.720
Which is interrogations, no? Because this guy is going to get life in jail if he admits that he

570
00:47:16.720 --> 00:47:22.720
killed this child. So that's not in his interests, but it's in mind. So I'm going to manipulate him to

571
00:47:22.720 --> 00:47:26.160
give me the secrets. If that's what you want to do and that's the direction you think you need to do,

572
00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:31.760
then by all means you can do it. And here in the US, it is legal that you can lie to

573
00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:37.920
Oh, see? Objects. But you're saying lying is the only way it becomes manipulation. Yes.

574
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.760
That becomes the shortcut and that becomes a way not just within the interrogation room.

575
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:45.760
I think what becomes important, and I've seen this come up a lot, people are all about like

576
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:49.440
influence, like you hear that come up quite a bit. If you want to influence somebody,

577
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:54.240
this is how you do it. You're honest with them. You're clear and you're transparent. Because

578
00:47:54.240 --> 00:47:58.240
influence is about how do I feel about you? Not about all the things that you're doing at that

579
00:47:58.240 --> 00:48:02.720
moment, because if I don't, if trusted as he isn't even on the table, if I don't trust you to begin

580
00:48:02.720 --> 00:48:06.880
with, or I think that to go back to what you said, there's this pattern recognition where I'm like,

581
00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:10.480
I just think there's something wrong with this. You're not going to be able to influence me.

582
00:48:11.040 --> 00:48:15.360
If I am honest with you in everything that I do, because that's how I carry myself,

583
00:48:16.240 --> 00:48:19.360
not only does it lower your cognitive load because you're not lying to somebody else,

584
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:24.960
but it underscores who you stand for and who you are as a person. And with that, people are going

585
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:30.240
to see that and say, you know what? Steven's very transparent. He said, this was a good deal.

586
00:48:30.240 --> 00:48:35.280
And I believe that for these reasons, it's a matter of you being honest with that. I always

587
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:39.280
question now like, because I see it a lot. And it came up in the questions that I was talking to

588
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:45.440
your team about. It's like, why does everybody want to influence somebody? Like, why do they,

589
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:51.360
what is that? Do you know? Like, why does it come up all the time? Because what do people

590
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:56.320
try to accomplish? Is they want to accomplish something? They have a goal for who, for themselves?

591
00:48:56.320 --> 00:49:04.880
Right. So is that, is that influence? But it gets the job done for some, for some people sure.

592
00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:10.560
It does. But what's that book? It's probably behind me somewhere called Influence.

593
00:49:10.560 --> 00:49:16.320
And it talks about the five pillars of influence, things like. So it's Robert Chaldini.

594
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:21.840
We teach that, right? It's one of those where you can understand why influence works,

595
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:26.320
the different strategies of influence, like what they all stand for. And when they fit

596
00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:31.600
within the, within the conversation, you can do it. I do it. But I can tell you, Steven,

597
00:49:32.160 --> 00:49:38.000
being a, being a communication specialist, I don't spend my day walking around trying to

598
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:43.120
influence people. I will be honest with people. I will be transparent. I will answer their questions

599
00:49:43.120 --> 00:49:48.560
with the best information that I have. And if people are inspired by that and, and that causes

600
00:49:48.560 --> 00:49:54.800
somebody to be influenced by the things that I said, that's, that's what I want, right? And

601
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:59.440
I brought this up earlier, but the training academy that, that, you know, that I instruct with,

602
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:05.200
it is all about openness. It's all about honesty. It's all about trying to help people based on

603
00:50:05.200 --> 00:50:10.480
why they've come to us. And it's not about manipulating people to, to come in and be a member.

604
00:50:11.040 --> 00:50:16.720
It's about why are you here? And how can we help you? And this is the best way we can do that.

605
00:50:16.720 --> 00:50:22.400
And that influences people and then inspires people to, to listen to what you have to say. Why,

606
00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:27.920
why is your podcast this successful? The first time you and I met, you said something that I

607
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:32.080
disagreed with. And it was, you were talking about fight story and you're talking about the different

608
00:50:32.080 --> 00:50:36.800
things you, you know, with fight story and the success of the podcast. And you said, it's not

609
00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:41.440
because I'm a good interviewer. It's because they're really good at marketing. You're a good interviewer

610
00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:47.600
because of the vulnerabilities that you do. Every time I've been surprised on how vulnerable and

611
00:50:47.600 --> 00:50:52.000
open you are in terms of sharing with yourself, like there's that story arc in terms of how that

612
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:57.760
connection is. Because of that, you influence me, not because you're a trying to, not because

613
00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:03.280
your team reached out, but because of the way you carried yourself in your podcast. And the

614
00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:07.520
questions that you ask and the vulnerability that you're showing, there is a level of trust

615
00:51:07.520 --> 00:51:13.040
that comes with that. And so you, you weren't trying to influence, you were being you. And there's

616
00:51:13.040 --> 00:51:18.160
a part of your self congruence, who you are, your ideal self, which is just like this is just

617
00:51:18.160 --> 00:51:23.760
what I do. And my life's not perfect. And I'll share the parts that are messy. And I'm trying to

618
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:30.080
use this as a platform to help millions of people. That's a big deal. And is this how you build trust

619
00:51:30.080 --> 00:51:38.960
with people? Or is trust a different adjacent point? So trust is about being vulnerable. Trust is

620
00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:47.040
about being open and sharing a little bit about yourself. So truly, Stephen, the question becomes

621
00:51:47.680 --> 00:51:53.680
is what I've shared with you in good hands. Because if it's not, that's a problem, right?

622
00:51:54.640 --> 00:51:59.840
Let me ask you a question. Do you have a secret that maybe you've never told anybody or you've told

623
00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:03.200
just one or two people? Yeah. You do. You got one in mind? Yeah. What is it?

624
00:52:05.200 --> 00:52:09.520
I can't, there's millions of people listening. Okay. But, but if these millions of people weren't

625
00:52:09.520 --> 00:52:17.520
watching, would you tell me? Yeah. Okay. So the reason that you're not telling me, or in front

626
00:52:17.520 --> 00:52:24.000
of these millions of people is why? Why are you not, why are you not telling us your secret? Because

627
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:28.480
of consequence. Okay. Someone's going to clip it. Someone's going to put it on the internet.

628
00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:32.400
Someone's going to fuck me up. There's a reason for it, right? There's a reason that you're not

629
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:37.040
trusting in terms of what it was. Maybe you trust me just because of the relationship that we've

630
00:52:37.040 --> 00:52:41.760
built at this point. But there's probably other things that you wouldn't trust me with. When you

631
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:48.000
talk about trust, if you look at concentric rings, you know, in terms of the trust around you,

632
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:53.760
the center ring should be self trust. It should be you. You should be able to trust yourself more

633
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:58.240
than you trust anybody else. If you don't, you probably need to do a little bit of work, right?

634
00:52:58.240 --> 00:53:03.520
What does that mean in reality, me trusting myself? Do you trust that you will do the things that you

635
00:53:03.680 --> 00:53:08.320
want to do or you want to do? Do you keep yourself in that direction? Do you keep yourself

636
00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:12.880
accountable, right? That becomes this thing where can you make decisions or are you a person like,

637
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:16.480
I don't make any decisions, I let somebody else make decisions or I run everything by everybody

638
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:21.120
else because I don't trust myself to make the right decision. Then you have to work on your decision

639
00:53:21.120 --> 00:53:26.320
making because you have to find a way to build your trust up. Outside of that initial ring,

640
00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:33.120
it's it should be a ring of a handful of people that have unconditional trust, right? And these are

641
00:53:33.120 --> 00:53:40.080
the people that no matter what, like you've given them that trust. You believe in them and it should

642
00:53:40.080 --> 00:53:45.040
be a small circle. And this is where I think people go wrong. They're like, ah, you know, I share

643
00:53:45.040 --> 00:53:50.640
everything with people. Then they, then they're crushed when one of those people that they've given

644
00:53:50.640 --> 00:53:57.200
unconditional trust with break it. That's a problem. I have probably, you know, my siblings are

645
00:53:57.200 --> 00:54:01.520
all really close to me. So I have them. There's four of them. Outside of that, I have my, you know,

646
00:54:01.520 --> 00:54:07.680
I have my wife and I select few friends, you know, that I know that if I call or like we're good.

647
00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:15.360
Outside of that, you should everybody else should be conditional trust. People should earn your

648
00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:19.920
trust, right? They should be honored to have it. Like don't give it away for free. And if you have

649
00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:25.280
somebody's trust, you should respect that if they've given that to you. But I think, and I've seen

650
00:54:25.280 --> 00:54:30.880
it, like people give away trust way too much because the person will be amazing in this one spot.

651
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:34.400
And all of a sudden they get the halo effect and they're like, well, they're great here. They

652
00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:39.920
must be great here. It's this, it's this arc of they're awesome everywhere. And so I'm going to

653
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:46.560
trust them with these other things. Then when again, they break it, they violate it.

654
00:54:49.520 --> 00:54:55.200
The way you feel is just this violation of, you know, somebody took what you gave them and just

655
00:54:55.200 --> 00:55:00.800
destroyed it. It's hard to come back from that. It's hard to once you read, once you lose trust,

656
00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:04.640
like if you lose somebody's trust, it's really, really hard to get back. Is there anything you can

657
00:55:04.640 --> 00:55:10.800
do to get back? Do you think? What I know that you can do and doesn't always work, you have to be

658
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:18.960
accountable for why you lost it. Whatever that is, very specific. It's going to take time and a lot

659
00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:23.920
of consistency. To consistency meaning that you show them consistently time and time again,

660
00:55:24.560 --> 00:55:31.520
that you are a person that, you know, can be trusted. On leadership principles, something I've

661
00:55:31.520 --> 00:55:36.560
heard you talk about as well. What do you think of the most important principles as it relates to

662
00:55:36.560 --> 00:55:40.080
leadership? Because we've talked about trust there and other things around communication and all

663
00:55:40.080 --> 00:55:44.800
these things. Is there anything we haven't covered as it relates to being a great leader in your

664
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:52.160
perspective? Somebody who's calm under chaos, that would be my definition of a leader. However,

665
00:55:52.240 --> 00:55:58.320
and I say that because leadership is a feeling, Stephen, how do you make these people feel as it

666
00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:04.960
relates to my qualities as a leader? Do I do the things that register with you as leadership? I

667
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:10.400
can tell you when I was on a SWAT team, which is a special weapons and tactics. This is where I learned

668
00:56:11.040 --> 00:56:18.000
the true essence of leadership because I had some amazing commanders and team leaders on that team

669
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:24.320
were under high stress, under a stress like that. If you have people around you that are keeping

670
00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:29.760
their composure, that's leadership. One of the elements there, I guess, as when you're in the SWAT,

671
00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:34.880
as well as dealing with huge amounts of uncertainty, when pressure's on. Sure, when you're a

672
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:40.560
life set risk. I was reading about a study, which I think you mentioned some time ago, where they

673
00:56:40.560 --> 00:56:46.080
look at three groups of people doing the same exam and we sort of are trying to ascertain how people

674
00:56:46.080 --> 00:56:52.800
make decisions with different degrees of certainty and information. Yeah, what the study showed was

675
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:59.840
there were a group of students that were taking a test in college and they were told that they

676
00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:05.120
either passed or failed or they had no idea whether they passed or failed. But prior to that,

677
00:57:05.120 --> 00:57:10.720
they were asked if they would take a vacation. The people who passed and the people who failed,

678
00:57:10.720 --> 00:57:16.080
there was a higher percentage of them who chose to take a vacation after getting news that

679
00:57:16.080 --> 00:57:20.960
they had either passed college or failed college. The group that didn't know, there was a third group

680
00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:27.920
that was just like, I'm unsure, weren't able to really make a decision. So just to be clear,

681
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:32.720
that I'm not third group, they didn't have their exam results back so they didn't take the action

682
00:57:32.720 --> 00:57:38.640
to book the case. They were told that there was some malfunction in ability to score their test and

683
00:57:38.640 --> 00:57:44.400
they would get their results at a later time. And so then they were asked to, you know, if they

684
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:48.480
would also buy a vacation and a farther fewer percentage, I don't remember what it was, but a

685
00:57:48.480 --> 00:57:54.160
farther, a much less percentage of them would take it than the people who both passed because I

686
00:57:54.160 --> 00:57:59.280
think there was like half the people who passed or were told they passed, like took the

687
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:03.920
bought the vacation package, it was like a vacation trip to Hawaii. Around the same percentage,

688
00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:10.080
I believe who failed the exam, bought the vacation trip, but the people who couldn't decide just,

689
00:58:10.080 --> 00:58:15.920
they didn't have the cognitive bandwidth to really make a decision. So the ambiguity of not knowing

690
00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:22.000
really lessens our cognitive ability to go in a certain direction. And so when we don't know

691
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:26.960
where to go, we often don't go anywhere. That is a whole mark of great leaders that they're

692
00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:31.920
able to decide even when there's very low certainty. Sure. I would think that would come with

693
00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:39.440
the territory. I think if you're only a leader when it's calm, then you're not really a leader,

694
00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:43.840
you're something with a higher salary and a title. Like leadership really shows up in those type

695
00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:53.600
of circumstances when things are uncertain. And so having the ability to manage things when

696
00:58:53.600 --> 00:58:59.120
not all the information is there and doing the best you can with it, because oftentimes the

697
00:58:59.120 --> 00:59:03.600
best decision to make is the right one and the worst one is to not make a decision at all.

698
00:59:04.160 --> 00:59:08.160
And so if you have those type of leaders who just can't think through that problem, then that's

699
00:59:08.160 --> 00:59:12.080
not a leader. I remember when I spoke in São Paulo many years ago, Barack Obama was on stage and

700
00:59:12.080 --> 00:59:17.280
he said that as president, like when he went and got Bin Laden in that compound in Pakistan,

701
00:59:17.920 --> 00:59:21.680
that they didn't know if Bin Laden was there, they'd never visually properly ID him. So he had to

702
00:59:21.680 --> 00:59:27.440
make that decision to risk American lives with, as he said, 51% certainty or very low certainty.

703
00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:32.400
And he says that's the thing about being the president of the United States. You make huge calls

704
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:36.960
with very little certainty. And I've always thought about that in terms of my day-to-day life and

705
00:59:37.680 --> 00:59:43.280
it all has made me conclude that the most successful people that I've met do have that ability

706
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:48.000
to be low certainty and make big calls with the peace of mind that they've made that call with

707
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:53.520
the best available information. And then the sort of inverse of that is some people listening right now

708
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:59.680
with even small decisions are trying to get to 100% certainty when obviously 100% certainty

709
00:59:59.680 --> 01:00:05.840
on the existing hindsight. That's a really good point. I think that's a lot of people struggle

710
01:00:05.840 --> 01:00:11.600
with that when it comes to just own your decision. Like own it. Like whatever you choose to do,

711
01:00:13.200 --> 01:00:18.560
if you make it not under high emotion and you do the best you can with the information that you

712
01:00:18.640 --> 01:00:24.320
have at that time, make a decision. Like as they say, if you make the wrong decision then it's

713
01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:27.920
experienced. If you make the right decision then it's confirmation. I think about this a lot. I

714
01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:33.200
think about how maybe everyone listening could have a conversation with themselves about their

715
01:00:33.200 --> 01:00:37.200
own relationship with uncertainty. Like how good are you dealing with situations where you don't

716
01:00:37.200 --> 01:00:42.000
have much information? Are you the type of person that's able to make a decision and not

717
01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:46.800
like sit in paralysis? And many people that come up to me in the street and say they want a new

718
01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:53.520
life or a new this or a new that are choosing like the certain misery of their current life versus

719
01:00:53.520 --> 01:00:58.400
the uncertainty they see as they look out into the void of like quitting the job and going and

720
01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:08.960
playing violin and proving something. You bring up something that so in one of our recent

721
01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:13.760
classes that we taught this month we talked about owning decision. And I shared the story with

722
01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:19.920
the community and it had a pretty profound effect. And so I was as a police officer was on

723
01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:25.920
patrol. It was late at night. I'm driving down just this two lane road kind of in the middle of

724
01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:31.600
nowhere. And I pull over to the side and I'm just kind of like watching from it from an angle.

725
01:01:31.600 --> 01:01:36.880
Just people driving up and down this road. This car flies by, goes through a stop sign, doesn't stop.

726
01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:43.600
It's a very nice luxury sedan. So I turn on my lights, pull them over and I said, how you doing?

727
01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:48.400
He's like, I'm alright. I get out of the sky is just like, he's flat drunk. And I shine my light

728
01:01:48.400 --> 01:01:54.800
into his passenger. And he's just like, he's passed out like he is. He's not even coherent that I'm

729
01:01:54.800 --> 01:01:58.880
probably standing there. So I get his driver's license and I'm like, look, you're pretty bad off. And

730
01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:04.080
he's like, you're going to call my dad. And I said, why would I do that? He goes, man, he goes,

731
01:02:04.080 --> 01:02:10.160
this is car. He's like, he's going to be upset. I said, all right. So I go back to my patrol car.

732
01:02:10.160 --> 01:02:15.440
And I look at this kid in terms of he's had no priors. He's 16. He has no prior driving record.

733
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:22.800
So I make it. So what's my decision now? I can call for a DWI unit to come and give this guy a

734
01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:28.080
feel sobriety test. And he's going to fail just because I could tell how drunk he was. Or I could call

735
01:02:28.080 --> 01:02:33.760
his dad. Now I have to make a decision because I have that type of discretion. So I have to think,

736
01:02:33.760 --> 01:02:39.760
do I take this kid, do I have this kid go to jail and tow his dad's car? Or do I call his dad

737
01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:44.960
and hope that's the right decision because his dad will find a way to make sure this doesn't happen

738
01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:49.520
again. So I had our dispatch give me his phone, his parents phone number and I call his dad.

739
01:02:50.080 --> 01:02:56.880
It's 11 o'clock at night. And my mom answers. And I'm like, you know, you know, Mrs. Smith. This is,

740
01:02:56.880 --> 01:03:03.440
you know, deputy O'Neill. I'm out here with your son, Jacob. Oh my God. How is he? I'm like,

741
01:03:03.440 --> 01:03:07.600
he's fine. And I'm like, I think he's been drinking too much. And I want to know if you want to come

742
01:03:07.600 --> 01:03:12.240
get him. She's like, he talked to my husband. I said, sure, he gets on the phone, same thing. And

743
01:03:12.240 --> 01:03:16.720
he's like, thank you. I will make sure this doesn't happen again. I will be there in five minutes.

744
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:22.240
I have no idea what happens at the end of this. But I made that decision at that time. The reason

745
01:03:22.240 --> 01:03:27.280
I'm sharing this is because when I told that story in our community, I asked everybody on the

746
01:03:27.280 --> 01:03:31.600
platform because it's very engaging. And I said, and Evie asked this question, actually, and she said,

747
01:03:31.600 --> 01:03:35.280
how many of you would do the same thing Desmond did? I probably should give context there that

748
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:39.760
Evie is your wife. Evie's my wife. Yes. A lot of people put it in the comments like, I would do

749
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:45.040
the same thing. Good for him. The kitchen, go to jail. And Evie was just like, I would do the exact

750
01:03:45.040 --> 01:03:50.640
opposite thing. I would have taken him to jail. I would have towed the car because I don't know

751
01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:56.000
if the consequences of what his dad would do is going to outweigh the fact that he's going to go to

752
01:03:56.000 --> 01:04:01.200
jail. And she's like, what if I let him go? And he does the same thing next week because he's not,

753
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:06.480
you know, he doesn't care what his father thinks. And she's like, that to me was a decision that I

754
01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:12.640
would have made. So I bring that up for this purpose. We both made a completely different decision.

755
01:04:12.640 --> 01:04:17.440
I made it for the reasons I did. She made it for the reasons that she did metaphorically. Mine was

756
01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:23.360
true. This is just what she said she would have done. The point was is that we both owned it.

757
01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:29.840
And a lot of times I think what happens going back to what you just said is people are so afraid to

758
01:04:29.840 --> 01:04:35.520
make a decision for a number of different reasons. And so they just choose not to. Now, again,

759
01:04:35.520 --> 01:04:38.560
people could look at this, you know, your audience could look at this and be like, he should have

760
01:04:38.560 --> 01:04:43.120
taken him to jail. I understand all of that. I had the discretion and that's the decision I made

761
01:04:43.200 --> 01:04:48.640
and I would make that decision every time. But it's less about that story and more about

762
01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:54.240
when you decide on something with the information you have at the moment, do you own it or do you,

763
01:04:54.240 --> 01:04:58.880
as you said, do you look back later and have hindsight bias and be like, I should have known.

764
01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:03.040
You can't do that. So many people try to live their life in reverse like that and looking back.

765
01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:09.120
It's impossible. It's impossible to know. So I do think in kind of a to expand on what you said,

766
01:05:09.120 --> 01:05:16.080
I do think when it talks about owning your decisions and being thoughtful as it relates to

767
01:05:17.520 --> 01:05:24.400
why you're doing or what you're doing and taking command of yourself and being a self-leader,

768
01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:28.640
decisions is making that is what it is to go back to the uncertainty aspects.

769
01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:33.200
Protecting your businesses data is a lot scarier than people admit. You've got the usual

770
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771
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772
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Someone doesn't have to hack you to bring everything crashing down. All it takes is one corrupted

773
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file, one workflow that fires in the wrong direction, one automation that overrides the wrong thing

774
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or an AI agent drifting, of course. And certainly your businesses offline, your team is stuck,

775
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777
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780
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781
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782
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783
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784
01:06:43.120 --> 01:06:49.120
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785
01:06:49.120 --> 01:06:52.800
So Jack, who started this show with me, got his first blood draw done a couple of weeks ago,

786
01:06:52.800 --> 01:06:55.760
so I thought I'd let him tell you a little bit more about his experience.

787
01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:59.680
This test relieved my eyes to personally what I should be doing with my health. I hear a lot of

788
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:04.400
information in this podcast. I sit in every single recording, so to know how I can relate each one

789
01:07:04.400 --> 01:07:08.960
to me personally is super valuable. You sign up and you schedule tests, and once you're done,

790
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you get a little report like the one I have here. I can see my in-range results, my out-of-range

791
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792
01:07:17.840 --> 01:07:22.080
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793
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794
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795
01:07:31.600 --> 01:07:38.080
$365 a year. I'll put the link in the description below. It is just $1 a day for your health.

796
01:07:39.440 --> 01:07:46.400
All of that research you've done on communication. Is there anything we haven't talked about today

797
01:07:46.400 --> 01:07:51.440
that really surprised you in the research? That really caused a paradigm shift in what you thought

798
01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:57.920
communication was and now what you think it is. Yeah. The research showed that your ability to build

799
01:07:57.920 --> 01:08:05.840
rapport with a person is what gives you the most power in terms of that connection. And different

800
01:08:05.840 --> 01:08:12.320
people, you know, how do you build rapport? Most people think that this is one of those things where

801
01:08:12.320 --> 01:08:17.600
you're just you're just you're overly kind. You're very complimentary. You're talking about the

802
01:08:17.600 --> 01:08:22.000
weather and now we've built rapport and then we're good. It's not how you build rapport. Rebuild

803
01:08:22.000 --> 01:08:27.040
rebuild rapport is understanding values in terms of a person. Report is understanding, you know,

804
01:08:27.040 --> 01:08:30.880
a person's presence and what they're needing from you. If I'm paying attention to you

805
01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:38.400
and I'm engaged with you and I'm making you feel seen and heard and understood and by proxy,

806
01:08:38.400 --> 01:08:45.520
by the reciprocity of doing that, you do the same thing for me. That's rapport. When it comes into

807
01:08:47.600 --> 01:08:54.160
building rapport with somebody, read the room. If I came in and I have a list of questions

808
01:08:55.040 --> 01:09:00.320
and I see you that you're there's some emotional state that you're showing. If I want to connect

809
01:09:00.320 --> 01:09:05.840
with you, I ask about that. I need to put my stuff aside before I can have the conversation I want

810
01:09:05.840 --> 01:09:10.480
to have. I probably have to have the conversation you want to have. And at that moment, it may be

811
01:09:10.480 --> 01:09:14.960
understanding what is going on in your head space. I could say, Hey, Stephen, you know, I'm

812
01:09:15.040 --> 01:09:18.640
Desmond O'Neill. You know, I know you're brought in this morning for these reasons.

813
01:09:19.280 --> 01:09:23.920
It's obvious to me right now that you seem really upset. Can you tell me what's going on right now?

814
01:09:25.040 --> 01:09:29.600
And you could say, you know, I don't know what's going on. I'm super scared. I've never been in

815
01:09:29.600 --> 01:09:33.920
jail before. My mom's sick at home. I don't know if there's anybody to take a tour. Now, how much

816
01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:37.600
information now do I have by the way that I can connect with you? Because if you tell me,

817
01:09:38.160 --> 01:09:42.160
I am freaked out. I don't know what's going on. What do I now do? Do I go back to be like, well,

818
01:09:42.160 --> 01:09:48.320
that sucks and go back to my list of questions? Or do I say, how best can I help you with that?

819
01:09:48.320 --> 01:09:52.880
And this builds rapport. Yes. Because what I'm doing is I'm showing empathy. I'm listening to you.

820
01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:58.720
I'm giving you what you want. I'm listening to your ambiguity. I'm orienting you in terms of

821
01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:02.640
the direction that you're asking me to take you. You're asking me for clarity in terms of what's

822
01:10:02.640 --> 01:10:07.040
going to happen. I'm going to answer that. I'm showing them that I am paying attention to them.

823
01:10:07.040 --> 01:10:10.400
I'm being authentic. I'm going to follow up with the things that I do because I'm going to come

824
01:10:10.480 --> 01:10:14.320
back later and be like, hey, we checked in your mom. She was good. We pulled your aunt in. Your aunt

825
01:10:14.320 --> 01:10:18.400
came and took care of her. If anything else comes up, let me know. I do have some questions that I

826
01:10:18.400 --> 01:10:22.800
need to get to. This is an important part of the investigation. But I can only imagine that there's

827
01:10:22.800 --> 01:10:26.320
a lot on your mind. And if things come up through our conversation, please, please ask me.

828
01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:31.280
And that's rapport. In those situations, I'm hearing many of the things that I read in that book

829
01:10:31.280 --> 01:10:36.400
influence by Robert Chaldini. Chaldini. I'm hearing reciprocity. Yep. You've done them a

830
01:10:36.400 --> 01:10:41.120
favor. So now they're more likely to answer your questions. Reciprocity is

831
01:10:43.120 --> 01:10:49.200
giving somebody something with the expectation that somewhere in the future, they will give you

832
01:10:49.200 --> 01:10:53.280
something else. It's not a transactional thing. It's not like the only reason I'm doing this

833
01:10:54.080 --> 01:11:01.280
is because I want something from you in exchange. That's transaction. So when you

834
01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:07.600
checked on that person's mom, that was reciprocity. That was me falling up with a commitment of saying

835
01:11:07.600 --> 01:11:11.680
that this is what I'm going to do for you. You can do with it what you want. But you know that

836
01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:16.640
doing that is going to increase the probability that they answer your questions. No, I do that

837
01:11:16.640 --> 01:11:22.080
regardless. He could have said, you know what? I appreciate you. Thank you for checking on my mom.

838
01:11:23.840 --> 01:11:26.960
I want a lawyer. I don't want to talk to you. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to check

839
01:11:27.040 --> 01:11:30.640
on his mom. You know why? Because that's what I said I was going to do. You know why? Because that's

840
01:11:30.640 --> 01:11:35.200
myself congruence. That's what I do as a person. When I give somebody my word, I'm going to follow up

841
01:11:35.200 --> 01:11:40.720
with it. So in a situation like that, I will do those things because that's what I've told him

842
01:11:40.720 --> 01:11:45.760
I'm going to do. Is there anything else on the point of having difficult conversations that we

843
01:11:45.760 --> 01:11:50.400
haven't covered in your mind? Because I know there's loads of people that they want to get better

844
01:11:50.400 --> 01:11:54.800
having those tricky conversations and also just dealing with what I think we see a lot is like

845
01:11:54.800 --> 01:11:59.040
people very keen to deal with difficult people. Is there anything that we haven't touched on?

846
01:11:59.040 --> 01:12:04.400
We've got the plan framework, but just just want to check was nothing we've missed. No, I just

847
01:12:04.400 --> 01:12:08.480
think it was I just think was a plan framework and it's not about making things complicated. It's

848
01:12:08.480 --> 01:12:13.440
actually about, you know, there's there's things that you should take out, you know, when it comes to

849
01:12:14.240 --> 01:12:19.600
communication. As opposed to always adding things in, you know, it really becomes like extinction

850
01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:24.720
be poor acquisition. So I can I can tell you when it comes to better communication. There are

851
01:12:24.720 --> 01:12:29.520
three things that you should stop doing right now. One of them is to stop trying to be right.

852
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:36.320
One of them is to stop telling people you understand. And the third one is stop giving people

853
01:12:36.320 --> 01:12:42.320
your unsolicited opinion. Now to break those down, stop stop trying to be right. We talked about

854
01:12:42.320 --> 01:12:47.760
that one a little bit. The second one is stop telling people that you understand. This is what I mean

855
01:12:48.240 --> 01:12:53.520
you can understand, you can understand a person's words. You will never understand their headspace

856
01:12:53.520 --> 01:13:00.000
in terms of the specificity of that. And so what you will see is if you're sharing a story,

857
01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:03.920
like if you shared a personal story with me, let's say, you know, let's say your father had passed

858
01:13:03.920 --> 01:13:09.520
away. And I'm like, you know, what's even I completely understand. My dad passed away two and I was

859
01:13:09.520 --> 01:13:18.720
young. So now we're connected. I have just I've just taken away a moment for you because I made it

860
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:23.680
about me because I thought that I understood something that you had experienced. In fact,

861
01:13:24.320 --> 01:13:28.480
your experience of a death or your experience of your father at the moment is going to be completely

862
01:13:28.480 --> 01:13:34.560
different than mine. But for me to tell you that I understand is is short-sighted. My girlfriend

863
01:13:34.560 --> 01:13:39.600
tells me sometimes that she wants me to say that I understand. And I think what she's saying is

864
01:13:39.600 --> 01:13:46.480
that maybe she wants to feel understood. And so she might be explaining how she feels. And then

865
01:13:47.200 --> 01:13:54.320
if I say, you know, I do understand. But do you? Sometimes I get to the point where I do understand

866
01:13:54.320 --> 01:13:58.080
what she's saying. Do you understand what she's saying? But do you understand how she truly feels?

867
01:13:58.080 --> 01:14:01.600
No. Okay. But that becomes because I don't feel that. You don't feel it. But she just wants me

868
01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:05.360
to acknowledge. She wants you to acknowledge it. So the difference is in terms of it was being

869
01:14:05.360 --> 01:14:08.960
genuine where you're like, look, I really understand how you feel. You probably don't.

870
01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:12.880
How do I make I feel understood in that regard then without telling her I understand?

871
01:14:14.960 --> 01:14:21.760
To feel understood is to listen to her to be like, you know, I sounds, sounds tough, sounds,

872
01:14:21.760 --> 01:14:24.960
you know, like this is something really on your mind. Like, and it kind of goes into our other

873
01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:29.040
thing. Well, like stop giving people your opinion. You know, if she's if she's expressing things to you

874
01:14:29.040 --> 01:14:33.120
and she's sharing how she wants to feel, she's probably not looking for you to tell her what to do

875
01:14:33.120 --> 01:14:37.120
unless she's asked you for that. The first thing that we always do and it happens all the time is

876
01:14:37.120 --> 01:14:42.960
like, let me tell you what I think, try to fix it without having all of the the motions and the

877
01:14:42.960 --> 01:14:48.880
complexity of why it's not being done. And so go back to with your girlfriend. It really is just

878
01:14:48.880 --> 01:14:53.280
a matter of trying to understand seeing where she's going with it, asking her, you know, if they're

879
01:14:53.280 --> 01:14:57.840
ways that that, you know, we can we can work to make it better or help you with this. But it's

880
01:14:57.920 --> 01:15:02.240
staying as she's just like, I want you to understand, I would just tell her I understand just because

881
01:15:02.240 --> 01:15:06.400
that's what she's looking for. You're not going to have it in there. But if you generally went to

882
01:15:06.400 --> 01:15:10.720
somebody and you're like, Oh, I understand, that's what I'm asking you not to do. That's what you

883
01:15:10.720 --> 01:15:14.640
shouldn't do. You shouldn't generally think that you truly understand another person because then

884
01:15:14.640 --> 01:15:18.000
you're going like you're convinced that you know and you're no longer curious in terms of how they

885
01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:25.520
actually feel. And on that last point about giving the opinion, a lot of time people, you know,

886
01:15:25.600 --> 01:15:30.960
when they're sharing something, they just want you to create the space. So I'm instead

887
01:15:30.960 --> 01:15:35.200
excited to me because most of the time people just want you to sit in the mud with them. And like,

888
01:15:35.200 --> 01:15:38.640
I naturally shut up with like my toolbox to try and fix the situation, but a lot of the time,

889
01:15:38.640 --> 01:15:44.480
especially with my girlfriend, maybe she just wants me to listen. Most people do, right? It becomes

890
01:15:44.480 --> 01:15:49.040
like this identity headspace where people just are looking for the sounding board for you for your

891
01:15:49.040 --> 01:15:53.200
girlfriend. Like you're the guy, you're the person and that's what she comes to you for. That's your

892
01:15:53.200 --> 01:15:56.720
job in a lot of ways. And I don't mean that in a negative thing, but it's just one of those

893
01:15:56.720 --> 01:16:00.240
things where if that's what she needs from you, then that's what you give her. And a lot of people

894
01:16:00.240 --> 01:16:03.840
just want, as Simon Seneca said, where you said it, like just sit in the mud with them and that's

895
01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:09.040
what they're asking you. If she turns you and say, Stephen, what would you do here? Then she's asking

896
01:16:09.040 --> 01:16:16.480
you, but if not, then don't give it. Something I need to work on. Yeah, we all do. Yeah, because you,

897
01:16:16.480 --> 01:16:20.400
because you know, something about maybe the male brain, but it's probably not just men.

898
01:16:21.120 --> 01:16:24.720
Can I talk real quick? Could you just about our training community before we go? Is that okay with you?

899
01:16:24.720 --> 01:16:31.760
Yeah. Because it is one of those where like now, what I spend all my time with is, is I'm an

900
01:16:31.760 --> 01:16:36.960
instructor for Beyond Bulletproof, which is a training platform that that EV and I that EV and I host.

901
01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:44.160
And it really comes down to three prongs of how do people, helping people think, helping people

902
01:16:44.160 --> 01:16:48.000
act and helping people lead with purpose. And I know we talked about those things, but the reason

903
01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:52.400
I bring that up is because there are so many people, Stephen, that just as you had talked about,

904
01:16:52.400 --> 01:16:56.720
they're looking for, they're looking for some help, they're looking for some clarity,

905
01:16:56.720 --> 01:17:01.520
they're looking for somebody to influence them in some way because they don't have good emotional

906
01:17:01.520 --> 01:17:06.240
regulation and they're trying to get better in their relationships. We've been fortunate to have

907
01:17:06.240 --> 01:17:10.240
that and that's kind of where, you know, I don't, I don't do a lot of social media, you know, I don't

908
01:17:10.240 --> 01:17:16.560
do a lot of other things because I spend my time here. As you know, we have a closing tradition

909
01:17:16.560 --> 01:17:19.840
on the podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next. And the question that's been left

910
01:17:19.840 --> 01:17:28.880
for you is, what decision do you most regret and would things have turned out better if you had made

911
01:17:28.880 --> 01:17:42.080
it differently? Ouch, that's a spicy one. So I, as much as this wants to be a spicy one, I can,

912
01:17:42.080 --> 01:17:46.080
I can categorically tell you that there's not a decision that I have made that I wish I would have

913
01:17:46.640 --> 01:17:52.000
made different. And I say that because it kind of goes back to, I own my decisions in terms of

914
01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:55.120
the things that I have done. I even went to the story that I shared about, you know, when I was a

915
01:17:55.120 --> 01:18:00.560
police officer with the kid who was drinking like, I own those decisions and in truth, like

916
01:18:01.200 --> 01:18:05.440
all of those decisions have manifested itself for me to sit down here with you today and have this

917
01:18:05.440 --> 01:18:09.840
conversation. And so I can't tell you that there's something that I look back to that I regret because

918
01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:13.840
I think that there's things we learn from. But I think for the most part, I don't use hindsight

919
01:18:13.840 --> 01:18:19.040
bias. I don't look back to say I wish there's something else. I use those things to grow and to

920
01:18:19.040 --> 01:18:23.040
learn and be better and, you know, had it made a different decision, maybe you and I wouldn't be sitting

921
01:18:23.040 --> 01:18:28.320
here. So none. But you still, I mean, if someone asked me that, I'd have loads of answers. Like what?

922
01:18:28.960 --> 01:18:34.160
Just like the ways that I handled situations in my life as an employer, I shouldn't have said that,

923
01:18:34.160 --> 01:18:37.600
shouldn't have done that. I, you know, when my girlfriend said that, you know, I should have just

924
01:18:37.600 --> 01:18:43.280
listened. And I wish I had because I think our relationship would be better or, you know,

925
01:18:43.280 --> 01:18:48.640
some grudge I held or whatever, you know, like the messiness of being an emotional human.

926
01:18:49.280 --> 01:18:56.480
So let me, let me ask this. And I think, you know, I do question at times that that type of,

927
01:18:56.480 --> 01:19:02.800
I wish and I regret, I think that also changes who you are as a person if you're like, I would have

928
01:19:02.800 --> 01:19:07.600
gone back and done. We can all do that in some, and I don't mean that's petty, but in all some

929
01:19:07.600 --> 01:19:12.000
petty way. When I was writing my, my thesis, I would always come to my thesis advisor and she'd

930
01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:15.280
be like, no, this isn't good. This isn't good. This isn't good. And so when I was done,

931
01:19:16.480 --> 01:19:20.000
there was like, I had like 30, she's like, just put this in the parking lot. Like maybe we'll look at

932
01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:24.800
this. Maybe we won't. So when I was done with my thesis, I had 30 pages that were in the parking lot.

933
01:19:24.800 --> 01:19:29.200
And I went to her and I feel like this is a lot of mistakes. And she goes, you had to have this,

934
01:19:29.840 --> 01:19:35.120
to have this. And so when, when I hear that, when it's just like, oh, I wish I would have done

935
01:19:35.120 --> 01:19:39.200
these things different, you would be a different person, right? It's all those perspectives. It's all

936
01:19:39.200 --> 01:19:43.040
those little things that you code and become a different person. You would be a different person

937
01:19:43.040 --> 01:19:46.720
if you had done those things differently. I'm not saying better or worse, but I'm saying I don't,

938
01:19:46.720 --> 01:19:51.040
I don't think that's a reason to look back and regret things. Yeah, I probably would still have

939
01:19:51.040 --> 01:19:54.880
those mistakes in my future if I hadn't made them in the past as well. So maybe, maybe the very

940
01:19:54.880 --> 01:20:00.480
fact that I can identify them means that my self awareness grew based on them. I, like, I'm

941
01:20:00.480 --> 01:20:03.520
never going to treat someone like that again. I'm never going to say that thing again, because

942
01:20:04.160 --> 01:20:08.160
I learned the lesson. So I'm a better person today because of that. Yeah.

943
01:20:09.040 --> 01:20:14.080
That's my thank you. Thank you so much for doing what you do. And this is your first podcast,

944
01:20:14.080 --> 01:20:17.760
which is exciting. It's my first podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you.

945
01:20:18.720 --> 01:20:26.480
If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the world we're living in today.

946
01:20:26.480 --> 01:20:31.440
And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards because on this show, when I sit here with

947
01:20:31.440 --> 01:20:37.280
my guest and have those deep intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again.

948
01:20:37.280 --> 01:20:42.640
We feel deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves

949
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a question for the next guest. And we've turned them into these conversation cards. And we've added

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these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more

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twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is the brand new edition. And for the first

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time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive question from me. But

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I'm only putting the gold cards in the first run of conversation cards. So get yours now before

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the limited edition gold cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description below.