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People really care about what's making them disliked and they really want to know how to be liked.

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Okay, so first, this is the next exercise that I do in my class that Harvard called 10 questions to fall in like.

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So if I have some of those questions they're going to like me.

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It's a great starting point, but let's talk about this because they're going to be little clues about how to be better liked

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and it's the most teachable, practical, scientifically rigorous framework in the world for communication.

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Do you want to hear about it, Stephen?

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Of course I want to hear about it.

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I want to be the most persuasive, influential, likable, talker in the world.

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So I shall follow your lead.

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Oh my gosh!

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It's a lot of power.

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I love it. I love it so much.

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Harvard professor Allison Woodbrooks is a behavioral scientist.

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Who has spent two decades studying conversational science.

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And she's revealing the communication mistakes we all make, the art of negotiation, and how to get anyone to like you.

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We all get to adulthood and we feel like conversations should be easy.

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But as a scientist, when you look under the hood, you realize this is why we have so many awkward moments,

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why we say things that we shouldn't, why we are boring, why we get angry and hostile,

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and there's very clear strategies to help us with all of that.

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Like one of my biggest findings was how we reframe social anxiety as excitement,

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which makes you focus on opportunities rather than threats.

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And that paper ended up being featured inside out, the movie, and then their small talk.

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I hate small talk.

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I'm going to help you reframe that because it's really important,

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but the mistake that people make is that we save it way too long,

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and they need to move up this topic pyramid.

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What about in a digital age, do we need to start communicating differently?

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Yeah, there's clear things that we should do to make our tax-based communication better, and we'll go through all of them.

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And you said you've done an interesting study recently about male friendship.

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Yes, and it's quite troubling.

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So how can I make more friends as a man?

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Yeah, let's talk about that.

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Just give me 30 seconds of your time.

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Two things I wanted to say.

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The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show,

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week after week, means the world to all of us.

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And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had,

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and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

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But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

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And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly

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and follow us on this app.

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Here's a promise I'm going to make to you.

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I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.

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We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to,

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and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

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Thank you.

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Professor Allison Wood Brooks.

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What is it that you do?

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And why do you think it matters so much to the world?

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I am a professor at Harvard, and I'm a behavioral scientist.

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I study how people talk to each other and how they can do it better.

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I teach a course that I created there called Talk.

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I wrote a book about it, also called Talk, The Science of Conversation,

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and the art of being ourselves.

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And if someone's chosen to listen to this conversation now, they've just clicked on it,

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and they're thinking, you know, should I stay or should I go?

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What promise can we give them?

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If they stay and listen to this conversation that is based on the work you've done in your book and all the research you've done,

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what is it that you think the average person can come away with that will have a meaningful impact on their day-to-day life?

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All of life is about relationships, and relationships are about talking.

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So if they can learn even one strategy that helps them in their conversations,

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it will massively improve their lives.

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If you think of everything from work to romantic relationships, friendships, productivity,

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all of it hinges on having excellent conversations.

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But conversations are easy, right?

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We all feel that way. We all get to adulthood and we feel like conversations should be easy

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because we started learning how to do it when we were one and a half years old as toddlers,

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and we practice doing it with an enormous number of partners, conversation partners, every day of our lives.

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So by the time we become adults, it feels like we should be experts, like we should be great at it.

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But as a scientist, when you look under the hood and you see, oh my goodness,

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all of the complexity that's happening under the hood, you realize, oh, this is why we have so many awkward moments,

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why we say things that we shouldn't, why we don't say things that we should,

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why we hurt each other, why we get defensive, why we are boring, why we get angry and hostile,

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and there are very clear strategies to help us with all of that.

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As you were saying that I was thinking, do you think there's a lot of people

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that are going through life giving off the wrong impression because they don't know how to talk?

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Maybe they are disliked, maybe they are misunderstood,

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because they haven't mastered the science of how to have a great conversation.

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On my worst days, I worry that everybody's walking around being misunderstood.

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When you think about talking, even as I'm talking right now,

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there's no way to take the entire contents of your mind and all of your personality and say it out loud.

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We're always curating, we're always choosing some subset of stuff to share with other people through conversation.

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No one is doing that perfectly and I fear that many people are really struggling with it.

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If you had to pinpoint just a few things that people want when they think about becoming a great conversationist,

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what is it that we actually are aiming at? What is that?

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Usually people want to be even loved.

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Usually we want to enjoy our conversations, to not have them be miserable.

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We want to feel safe and protected and not have it be dreadful and time consuming.

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We want to achieve professional goals, so advancing and achieving and making great decisions.

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Already the very basic drives of what people are trying to achieve in conversation are actually a little bit more complicated than just like,

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oh, we're looking for connection.

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Then when you really dig into it within all of the goals that people want in those categories,

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it's a vast constellation of motives.

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I would like you to teach me how to talk really, really well.

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I don't know if you need my help that much, Stephen, but I'd love to, even the best communicators of room for improvement.

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No, I think I do.

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I was thinking about this last week and all the conversations I've had at the different types of conversations.

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I had one conversation where I met someone's family for the first time who works with me.

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It was a little bit nerve-racking because that contact, people have these moments where they meet the in-laws or whatever.

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For me, it's often meeting someone who works with me's family.

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I find quite nerve-racking because I think they're probably judging me.

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I've also had difficult business conversations.

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Because they are judging me.

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And I can feel it.

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And as I go towards those conversations, I'm like, oh, my God.

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And then I end up just like freezing or being a little bit paralyzed.

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And you'd think of someone like me who does this for a living, living finds conversations easy.

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I absolutely do not.

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The more I talk to very high-level, C-suite, very successful people.

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And in fact, the higher and more successful people are, the more likely they are to be aware that this is really important

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and that they have room for improvement.

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It's almost like you're aware that this skill is probably what helped you get where you are.

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And therefore, you want to get even better at it.

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You're only aware of when you have awkward moments or mistakes or missteps.

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And you're like, I would really like to get that out of my life, please.

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Amen.

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I've ruminated on an awkward encounter I had like two and a half weeks ago.

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Of course.

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I should have just done it.

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But actually in reading some of your work, I thought about what I could have done.

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And we'll get to this idea of preparing for those moments, which I typically don't,

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because I assume I should be a natural.

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Can I ask you, as you were talking about these different examples of things that you're ruminating about,

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do you feel like you have a weakness or like a recurring thing that you suspect you need to get better at?

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I think one of them is I am a bit of an introvert in my sort of self-classification.

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And as people know who I am well in the world, I think I've become more introverted.

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And sometimes that can be perceived in the wrong way.

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So my like happy state is kind of being alone or around people that I'm extremely familiar with.

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If I leave the house and I go say to a gym or something, I have a little bit of paranoia.

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So I'm always kind of on edge, which means that this kind of shuts me down more.

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So when I do have conversations, I can sometimes appear to be a bit more shut down.

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And I don't want to carry that into moments where I need to be a bit more open.

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And then I would say generally, I just hate small talk.

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Yeah, you're not alone there.

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And I just say it's like a point.

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This is why I think I bought cars because you can just skip straight into the deep stuff

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and I can ask people about their trauma.

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And do that in normal conversations, too, actually.

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Do you find that you get stuck in small talk?

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Yes.

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A good bit.

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I just try and avoid it.

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So I've got this funny story.

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One of the most prestigious people on planet earth invited me to come to a thing.

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And I said no because there would be a hundred other people there.

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And I just didn't want to be in a room for four hours with a bunch of other people.

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Like it just, for me, it's so exhausting.

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And if I told you that what this context was, you burst out laughing.

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And my team were like, you go to fucking me.

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And you enjoy it.

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No, I'm not going.

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There's too many people there.

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But that's kind of what I'm like.

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I love this environment, but I hate small talk and I hate.

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I don't know if that's a weakness as much as it is you learning your preferences.

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I think it's okay.

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Maybe we'll get there, but large groups are very stressful.

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Group conversation and figuring out the structure of like who should be talking to whom

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when and about what is very overwhelming for the human mind.

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It's quite different than one on intimate one on one conversation,

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which is much more within your control.

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And it's much clearer what the purpose is.

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So we should think about it maybe not a, we can reframe it and it's not a weakness,

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but thinking about your social portfolio.

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Who are you talking to?

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Is it the right people and is it in the right arrangements in the right group size?

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So what we're doing right now, one on one,

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is a categorically different task than going to a party with a hundred people.

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So I'm going to help you reframe that later on.

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Why did you choose to do this?

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The things you could have done with your life?

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Yeah, it's isn't life so fascinating.

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I often think about the paths not taken, but I'm very happy to be on this path.

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I grew up in upstate New York on a small lake in a small town.

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I was a late girl, just gorgeous place.

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And I love playing sports, team sports in particular.

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I love female friendship from an early age.

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And probably most formatively, I'm an identical twin.

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And all of the things I just described, I think are either indicators of how much I love conversation

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or formed my love of conversation.

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But either way, I arrived at college deeply interested in understanding humans and their behavior.

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And by the time I got to Harvard, I realized, wow, there are whole fields like social psychology

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and communication that are purportedly about communication,

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but nobody's bothered to actually transcribe real conversations

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and study them at very large scale.

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And so that's what I've been up to for the last 15 years.

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How has being an identical twin been formative in this regard?

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So my twin's name is Sarah.

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Being an identical twin, there are many things that are similar to being a close sibling.

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I'm sure, but an identical twin, it's like you have another version of you in the world.

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And we share a bedroom.

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We were on the same sports teams.

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We played in band together.

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And so it's sort of like watching a version of yourself up close.

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And I got to see how she failed and thought, oh, well, I'm going to avoid that.

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And I would see how she succeeds.

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She hits an amazing joke.

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She answers an amazing question.

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I know that I'm able to do that because we have the same DNA, the same abilities.

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In a sort of subconscious way, I think I've just been chasing trying to help other people find that in their relationships,

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in their friendships, in their romantic relationships, in their work collaborations.

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Because I've gotten to see how amazing that can be for two human beings,

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how close you can be and how much you can actually understand each other when you communicate well.

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And what research have you done?

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What are the reference points you're pulling on?

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Do you do your own research?

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So much.

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And give me a flavor of the...

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Too much, probably.

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It's almost like I'm a recovering academic.

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I've been working in academia doing behavioral science research for 20 years.

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I know I look impossibly young.

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I started in graduate school studying emotions, especially anxiety.

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And not the kind of anxiety that requires medication or therapy necessarily,

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but the types of social anxiety that people feel constantly all day long.

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And figuring out, okay, how does it affect different behaviors like how we negotiate

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or how we take advice from each other or how we perform when we're public speaking?

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These types of things.

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And then figuring out strategies and tips to help people manage that anxiety more effectively.

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And one of my biggest findings was how we reframe anxiety as excitement.

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It's a very easy flip to move from it.

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Essentially they're the same emotion because they're both high arousal, high energy,

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high cortisol, stress hormone, high heart rate, sweaty palms.

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You just change how you think about it in your mind.

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So literally saying things out loud like I'm excited.

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Change how you're appraisal of it.

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So you actually experience excitement.

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It helps you perform a lot better in a lot of different ways.

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So you did a study in 2011?

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Yes, yes.

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The nervously negotiation study.

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So that one was about negotiation specifically.

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This excitement reappraised all the papers called get excited.

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And that paper actually ended up being featured in Inside Out, the movie.

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Oh, wow.

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Yeah, there's a great scene where the main character is about to have a panic attack

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and joy sneaks into the little cubicle farm of minions and says, stop drawing.

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All of these projections about how things are going to go badly

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and instead draw how things could go well.

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So great.

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I was sitting in the movie theater with my kids and my husband kind of looked down the way

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and he was like, is that your thing?

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And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's my thing.

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So what did that study show those two studies?

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The nervous and alley one, but also the normal excitement?

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Yeah.

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When we feel anxious as most people do in negotiations

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because it's an intense environment filled with uncertainty and a lack of control,

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which is the recipe for anxiety, we tend, we want to escape.

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We either want to relieve that feeling by making concessions or get out of there, right?

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Just exit the interaction.

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That was the main finding of the nervous and alley anxiety and negotiation paper.

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The reframing anxiety as excitement paper is lots of different ways

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to convince yourself that you're feeling excited just by saying I'm excited out loud.

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And in doing so, that makes you focus on opportunities rather than threats.

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How things could go well rather than poorly.

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And it has incredible downstream consequences.

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It helps you sing better, helps you do public speaking better.

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It helps you collaborate more effectively.

260
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So it's just a very, it's a very powerful intervention.

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And what was the sort of mechanics of the study?

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So we would bring people in.

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You tell them, hey, Steven, you're going to be singing karaoke in front of an audience.

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People start to feel quite nervous about this naturally.

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Then right before they're going to get up and sing this song, we say, okay, an experimenter is going to ask you how you're feeling.

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Some of you, we want you to say you're feeling excited.

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And some of you, we want you to say you're feeling anxious.

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And that alone, when I say, Steven, how are you feeling right now?

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And you say, anxious.

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Great.

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Okay, let's go sing the song.

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You go, people who said, I'm anxious, sing worse compared to people who say, I'm excited.

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I think it out there.

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They're more in tempo, more on pitch.

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They have better rhythm.

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We measure it with a software when they're actually singing in front of the experimenters.

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Just by me saying, I am excited.

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Yeah.

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So the other day when I met my team members family, I should have been saying to myself, I'm so excited to meet them.

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Among other things.

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Okay.

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And this is important.

283
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It doesn't always work, right?

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If you're terrified and it's really something dreadful, like you're terrified that your mother's

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going to die and turns out it's going to be hard to get excited about that if she has a terminal illness.

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But on the margin, if you're sort of torn between feeling nervous or excited in your mind,

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if you can really convince yourself that you actually are excited and that things could go well,

288
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I'm going to crush this exam.

289
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I'm going to tear it up on the basketball court.

290
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That flip, if repeated enough, actually becomes more likely to come true.

291
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And certainly before a high stakes conversation, like meeting your colleagues family.

292
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So interesting.

293
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I really, I have this behind the scenes channel called Behind the Diary on YouTube.

294
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And the other day when I did Jimmy Fallon, because it's kind of outside of my wheelhouse to go on like late night TV in America

295
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in like seven minutes to be funny or whatever.

296
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So I was shaking myself because I'm a very serious guy.

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So before I went out, there's a video of me and I said to my team,

298
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what I said to myself before the little curtain opened was,

299
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this is going to be amazing.

300
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Can't wait.

301
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You've, you've like prepared for this.

302
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I said all this nonsense in my head thinking that it was nonsense.

303
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And I walked out, had the best time of my life.

304
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It went so great.

305
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Great.

306
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And I made a video about that.

307
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How, you know, I'm not one to believe in things that without like rigor and evidence.

308
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And I didn't have it.

309
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No, you do.

310
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Now I do.

311
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Now I have a study that proves that it's not.

312
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This one is interesting.

313
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This was the beginning of my scientific journey realizing that the way we talk to other people

314
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and the way we talk to ourselves, especially in a repeated sense.

315
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If you think about, okay, you did that before Jimmy Fallon.

316
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Now what if you do it before the next time you meet a colleague's family?

317
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Now what if you do it before you interview Bill Gates before you do it?

318
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Right.

319
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If you're then get in the habit of telling yourself you're excited,

320
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and that becomes effective for you,

321
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it's incredibly meaningful in accumulation over time.

322
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Right.

323
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So just focusing on one time.

324
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Yes, it's helpful.

325
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But if you can make it habitual, it has this sort of upward spiral effect on people.

326
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.000
It was the beginning of my scientific journey thinking, oh,

327
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well, if we can study one phrase like get excited or I'm excited,

328
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what if we start studying the cascading on folding ways that people talk to each other?

329
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And not just one line, but like every turn of a conversation,

330
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no one had done that before.

331
00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:50.000
And this negotiation study you did, what was the mechanism for that?

332
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:51.000
Yeah.

333
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That was a more class of the literature.

334
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:57.000
People have been studying negotiations for decades now.

335
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And there's a really great negotiation course at almost every business school

336
00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:04.000
and law school that's based in all of this rigorous work.

337
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What had not been studied in terms of negotiating our people's emotions.

338
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It was about 15 years ago that people,

339
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including scholars, came to the point where we were like,

340
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oh, people's feelings matter.

341
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When they feel nervous or when they feel angry,

342
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that's actually an important distinction, how you feel on the inside

343
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versus what you're expressing to your counterpart.

344
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So in this paper, what we found is as a base rate,

345
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most people feel anxious before and during a negotiation

346
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because it is an intense environment.

347
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It's probably one of the greatest benefits of taking a negotiation course

348
00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:37.000
is that you just get reps.

349
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And so you get more comfortable with the process of doing it.

350
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.000
That might be the biggest takeaway from doing a training course like that.

351
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And so in this paper, we have that sort of base rate.

352
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Look, everybody's feeling anxious.

353
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And then what are the downstream consequences of feeling anxious?

354
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And what we find, people we had people doing negotiations,

355
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playing these in negotiation games.

356
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What we find is that people are much more likely to sort of leave prematurely

357
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or make more concessions to relieve the feelings of anxiety.

358
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:06.000
Make bad offers.

359
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:07.000
Yeah.

360
00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.000
Or it depends on your goals, right?

361
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.000
If your goal is to claim a lot of value

362
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:16.000
then making concessions and giving money away is not going to help you with that.

363
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.000
So if I'm asking my boss for a pay rise, for example,

364
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:24.000
and I'm very, very nervous, I'm much more likely to lower my expectations

365
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:28.000
except a bad offer and leave the situation prematurely.

366
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000
Absolutely.

367
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So what do I do about that?

368
00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:32.000
Oh, so many things.

369
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.000
If we're talking about asking for a raise,

370
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what you want is to go in there with as much sort of personal power as you can.

371
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:45.000
One way to do that is to get another job offer somewhere else first.

372
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So will you talk about this as the best alternative to a negotiated agreement, a batna?

373
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You want to strengthen your batna.

374
00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:54.000
So if your boss says, no, I'm not giving you a raise,

375
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you can legitimately say, I'm going to go take this other job offer

376
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:01.000
because I just got a better offer from the guy down the street.

377
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:04.000
What if you don't want to take the other offer?

378
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:09.000
Then you need to be honest with yourself about how much power you have in the negotiation.

379
00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:13.000
You also probably, a lot of people make the mistake of going in sort of hands on hips

380
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.000
like I deserve more money.

381
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.000
There are lots of questions that you should ask first to know,

382
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.000
am I negotiating with the right person?

383
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:24.000
Does my company have the funds to actually give me more money?

384
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:29.000
How can I justify this in a way that's compelling to them?

385
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:31.000
It's not up to you.

386
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.000
It's that they need to want to keep you

387
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:39.000
and to feel like you are being fairly and generously rewarded.

388
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:44.000
All of that requires asking a lot of questions before you go in and start making demands.

389
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.000
In that context, how would you try and persuade me if you work for me?

390
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.000
What would you say?

391
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:54.000
I do think it's very easy to get someone's backup when you walk in and ask them for money.

392
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:55.000
If you do it.

393
00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:56.000
100%.

394
00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:03.000
It's hard for me to answer this because maybe this is sort of my personal values.

395
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.000
It's almost like I'm taking off my expert hat for a moment.

396
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:10.000
I think the best way to get a raise is to be awesome.

397
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:16.000
Do things that are valuable and your company is going to give you more money

398
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.000
without even having to ask for it.

399
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:24.000
In my heart, this question of how do we have a conversation where I ask for more money?

400
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.000
It's almost like I would hope that you don't even get to that point.

401
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:33.000
If you are truly making yourself almost irreplaceable and incredibly valuable,

402
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.000
your boss is going to be coming to you and saying, I have to keep you around.

403
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:38.000
You're amazing.

404
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:39.000
You're so incredible.

405
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:43.000
That's much easier conversation to have than walking in and saying, I'm not fair.

406
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:45.000
I don't make enough.

407
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.000
I do think that holds it to be true.

408
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:51.000
Generally, if people's first priority is what they want,

409
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.000
then they often don't tend to get what they want.

410
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:57.000
But people who have their first priority is what I can give.

411
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:58.000
tend to get what they want.

412
00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:59.000
That's right.

413
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:04.000
It's a bit of a mindset shift.

414
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:10.000
If you prioritize other people's needs, if you're thinking about what your boss finds valuable,

415
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.000
what the organization finds valuable, and you rise to meet those needs,

416
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:18.000
you make yourself valuable, which is going to come back to you.

417
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.000
Hopefully, that's what that's the hope.

418
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:24.000
I think often that is the case, almost always that is the case.

419
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:27.000
In the talk framework and we'll get there, the case is for kindness.

420
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:31.000
It's not kindness in the sense of altruism because I'm going to help my boss

421
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.000
and do everything he wants because I care so deeply.

422
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.000
That can be part of it.

423
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:42.000
Also, it's this sort of loop of, if you give the organization what it needs,

424
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:44.000
that's going to come back to you.

425
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.000
You will actually become valuable and get what you want as well.

426
00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:49.000
That's how relationships work.

427
00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:52.000
Usually, when I interview people, I lead the way.

428
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:54.000
Today, I'm going to follow.

429
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:58.000
Because you know the outcome, me and the audience want to get to.

430
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.000
I have all this stuff here.

431
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:01.000
I love it, props.

432
00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:02.000
All these props.

433
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:03.000
Fabulous.

434
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.000
I have these blocks that, for anyone that can't see the conversation,

435
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.000
say T-A-L-K on them talk.

436
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:09.000
Fabulous.

437
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:11.000
You tell me the best place to start.

438
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:12.000
You know the outcome.

439
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.000
You know where I want to get to.

440
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:16.000
I want to be the best conversation as the best talker, the most persuasive,

441
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:21.000
influential, likable talker in the world.

442
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.000
So I shall follow your lead.

443
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:24.000
Oh my gosh.

444
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:25.000
It's a lot of power.

445
00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:26.000
I love it.

446
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:27.000
I love it so much.

447
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.000
Let's start with this.

448
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:35.000
I want you to think of a conversation that you had recently.

449
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.000
It has to be more than five minutes long.

450
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:38.000
More than five.

451
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:39.000
Yes, I can think of one immediately.

452
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:42.000
It was a conversation I had with my girlfriend where I just wanted her to know

453
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.000
that I accept the fact that I fucked up.

454
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.000
I accept the fact that I should have been more present in a particular moment

455
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:50.000
and I wasn't.

456
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.000
And I just wanted to, like, own it.

457
00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:54.000
Own it.

458
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:55.000
And convey that to her.

459
00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:57.000
And convey that I'm sorry that I get it.

460
00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:00.000
And this is not one where I'm going to try and justify my whatever.

461
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:06.000
No, actually, objectively, I should have been more attentive and present.

462
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.000
I just wanted her to know that.

463
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.000
So you still have to have an admission of blameworthiness.

464
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000
Why?

465
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:13.000
Why did you want to do that?

466
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:18.000
Because I felt that she was right and I regretted my behavior.

467
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:19.000
Yep.

468
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:21.000
So sometimes I don't feel like she's right.

469
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.000
Sometimes I'm here to, you know, respond.

470
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:27.000
In this particular scenario, I thought, you know, actually, on balance,

471
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.000
I should have been more present.

472
00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:31.000
This was an important time for her.

473
00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:36.000
And in hindsight, that's not how I wish I'd behaved.

474
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.000
Okay.

475
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:42.000
How did you want her to feel during and at the end of this conversation?

476
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:43.000
Understood.

477
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:49.000
And you really understood, that was really it.

478
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:56.000
It's like I wanted her to feel understood and I guess like connected to me.

479
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:02.000
But it's more, it's really more I just wanted her to not worry that I didn't understand.

480
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:03.000
So she didn't have to say it again.

481
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:05.000
I just wanted her to know that I get it.

482
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:08.000
And that in future, I wish I behaved differently.

483
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:13.000
How did you want to feel during and after this conversation?

484
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:15.000
I guess I wanted to offload the guilt.

485
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:16.000
Aha.

486
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:17.000
Aha.

487
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:18.000
Good.

488
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.000
Because I felt bad.

489
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:20.000
I felt like, no, she's.

490
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:21.000
And it was weighing on your conscience.

491
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:22.000
Yeah.

492
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.000
I got to say that I got to own this because it's making me feel like a shithead.

493
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000
Yeah.

494
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:27.000
Okay.

495
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:28.000
Fabulous.

496
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:29.000
Okay.

497
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:33.000
When we look back on our conversations and try and describe what our goals were,

498
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:36.000
very quickly you start to realize that our goals are very complicated,

499
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.000
that we want a lot of things.

500
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.000
I'm also guessing there may have been a time component.

501
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.000
Can you talk a little bit about that?

502
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:46.000
Like how much time did you have to achieve these goals?

503
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.000
I mean, I never seemed to have enough time.

504
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.000
So it was like it was.

505
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000
Yeah.

506
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.000
So I had about probably about 20 minutes.

507
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:55.000
Great.

508
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:56.000
Hey, that's pretty good.

509
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.000
I wish I had 20 minutes with my husband.

510
00:26:58.000 --> 00:26:59.000
Okay.

511
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:05.000
So I have a framework that helps us think about conversational goals.

512
00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:08.000
And I call it the conversational compass.

513
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:09.000
Okay.

514
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:14.000
And like a compass that you might use to find your way out of the desert or the forest,

515
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.000
the compass helps you decide which way not to walk but to talk.

516
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.000
Okay.

517
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:21.000
So the x-axis.

518
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.000
I'll put this on the screen for anyone.

519
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:24.000
That's conceited video.

520
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:25.000
Great.

521
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:30.000
So the x-axis, which runs horizontally, is about your relationship.

522
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:31.000
I'll link it below.

523
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:35.000
So this relational axis, high relational goals are things that you care about

524
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:38.000
that are serving the other person or your relationship.

525
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:41.000
This conversation sounded very high relational.

526
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:46.000
You're truly like, I just really want her to know that I feel like a shithead

527
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:48.000
and that I'm owning it and like, I care.

528
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.000
And I maybe won't do it again, something like that.

529
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:55.000
So low relational goals are things we care about that serve us.

530
00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.000
So in this case, you said something like, I want to offload, give her to my guilt.

531
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:01.000
I wasn't, I was feeling bad.

532
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:04.000
The y-axis is about information exchange.

533
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:09.000
High informational goals are hinge on exchanging accurate information.

534
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:14.000
It's sort of the reason human beings develop the ability to communicate at all.

535
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.000
Right?

536
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.000
Way back when is to take what's in my brain, communicate it to you accurately.

537
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.000
But we care about tons of stuff that is low informational.

538
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.000
So it's not about exchanging information.

539
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.000
And sometimes it's about concealing it.

540
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:29.000
In this case, you had a high informational goal.

541
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.000
You wanted to sort of persuade her or prove to her that you're a good guy.

542
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:36.000
And that she should stay with you essentially trust you.

543
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.000
But you also had low informational goals.

544
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:42.000
Like you didn't want it to be emotionally unpleasant to have this conversation.

545
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:45.000
You also had low informational goals like a time constraint.

546
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.000
You needed to protect your time and her time.

547
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:53.000
And so we're always limited by time and cognitive resources.

548
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:59.000
So the point of this is to help us plot all of those goals in a logical way.

549
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.000
Each quadrant is good.

550
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:03.000
We live in all four quadrants.

551
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:05.000
We're not trying to get to one or another.

552
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:10.000
It's just to help us describe all of the many things that we actually care about.

553
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:15.000
Almost to validate them and say, listen, it's legit that you wanted to relieve your guilt.

554
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:20.000
It's super admirable that you wanted to signal to her that like you're owning this mistake.

555
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:22.000
It's legit that you have time constraints.

556
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:26.000
It's legit that you don't want your conversations to be unpleasant.

557
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.000
So each of the quadrants gets a positive name.

558
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:31.000
High informational, high relational is about connection.

559
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:38.000
Often you'll hear communications experts just talk about connection, which is too narrow.

560
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:40.000
It's not the only thing that we care about.

561
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.000
Down here, low informational, high relational is about savoring.

562
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:47.000
And it does informational mean in this context.

563
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:54.000
So like how much accurate information you are trying to, you need to exchange with each other.

564
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:59.000
If we just sat here kind of quietly and I hummed a song because we,

565
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:03.000
and I said something like, I love your shirt.

566
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:09.000
We're not exchanging a lot of information, but we might be having a very lovely interaction with each other.

567
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:16.000
So not every conversation is about high information exchange, though many people think that it is.

568
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:19.000
You know these people. They're very transactional.

569
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:24.000
They feel like a conversation is where you just say things you know at other people.

570
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:27.000
And that they're going to say things they know back at you.

571
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:29.000
That's a big mistake.

572
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:31.000
So having fun, I can see is in the bottom right.

573
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:32.000
Having fun, yes.

574
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:36.000
Because it's not about huge information on exchange, but it is about connections.

575
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:37.000
That's right.

576
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:38.000
Oh, and it's really important.

577
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:41.000
Many of my students at Harvard almost forget about this quadrant.

578
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:45.000
They're like, if we're not persuading and making decisions, we're not living.

579
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.000
This is really important, especially over time.

580
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:53.000
If we're not enjoying being with each other, I'm not going to look forward to talking to you again.

581
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:56.000
That's true at work and outside of work.

582
00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:58.000
Lower left is essentially discernment.

583
00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000
We call it protection.

584
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:03.000
It's protecting your time, protecting your reputation, protecting information.

585
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:07.000
So concealing, keeping secrets, moving quickly.

586
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:10.000
We can't sit here for hours and hours and hours.

587
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:11.000
And then protecting your reputation.

588
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:14.000
Like, you care about making a positive impression on other people.

589
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:20.000
I want you to see me as smart and warm and calm and trustworthy.

590
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.000
These are self-serving, low informational goals.

591
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:30.000
And then we get up to upper left, which is low relational, they're self-serving, high informational.

592
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:35.000
This is a lot of work-related goal, persuasion, making decisions, brainstorming, etc.

593
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:40.000
So if I want to be liked and have great relationships, I need to be on the right side of this.

594
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:41.000
Is that accurate?

595
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:47.000
So what happens if someone who trusts you and loves you tells you something in confidence,

596
00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.000
and then you go tell everybody else?

597
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:51.000
You lose trust?

598
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:52.000
Yeah.

599
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:57.000
So it's not that you can only live on this side of the compass

600
00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:01.000
because discernment matters for relationships.

601
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:07.000
And here, you are going to be in a relationship where hopefully you're going to be brainstorming things together,

602
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.000
making decisions together.

603
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:12.000
Even for the friend, you're like, oh, where should we go to dinner tonight?

604
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:16.000
You need to make that coordinate that choice well together.

605
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:21.000
So I think one aspiration is to try and be over on the right side as much as you can.

606
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:28.000
And in fact, having the mindset of pushing yourself to try and think about your goals that are more prosocial,

607
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:30.000
more often is a virtuous goal.

608
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.000
But like, listen, we all have actual needs.

609
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:37.000
So like, you can't only live on the right side of the compass.

610
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:45.000
It's about moving around in a way that is savvy and actually serves what you care about.

611
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:46.000
Yeah.

612
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:50.000
Do you have a sense of where your goals from that conversation that you described would be?

613
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:56.000
Apologize, which is high relational and not very high on information,

614
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:57.000
because I didn't have a bunch.

615
00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:58.000
I didn't have a lot to say.

616
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:01.000
It was just very simply about letting you know that I was sorry.

617
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:02.000
And it wasn't.

618
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:05.000
I didn't have a big explanation or a bunch of excuses or justifications.

619
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.000
It was just listen, I fucked up.

620
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:08.000
Yeah, I get it.

621
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.000
Can we talk about apologies for our sex?

622
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:10.000
Sure.

623
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:15.000
I love that you chose this as your example because and the way you're describing it.

624
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:17.000
I love how you're saying.

625
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:21.000
I didn't go into a huge explanation of why I did it or anything.

626
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:23.000
More people should apologize that way.

627
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:27.000
A lot of people, their instinct when they're apologizing is to revisit the problem

628
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:32.000
and sort of make excuses or explain why they did the thing wrong.

629
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:34.000
It's not effective.

630
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:37.000
What is more effective is what you're describing.

631
00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:42.000
Taking ownership and saying, look, I just messed up and I'm so sorry and I feel awful about it.

632
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:48.000
And the most effective component of an apology is actually making a promise to change.

633
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:52.000
If you say to your girlfriend, I've realized I messed up here.

634
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.000
I'm not going to do it again.

635
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:57.000
Here's how I'm going to be different in the future, like a concrete plan.

636
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:01.000
It's so compelling to hear that you've thought about that.

637
00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:04.000
And then it's measurable because she can see in the future,

638
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:06.000
do you actually live up to that promise?

639
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:10.000
Do you follow through on this promise to never make the mistake again?

640
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:13.000
Is there a point where you can apologize too much?

641
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:16.000
We studied this. I ran some studies on this.

642
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:22.000
We started by looking at frequency of apologies made during normal conversations.

643
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.000
It's quite rare for someone to over-apologize,

644
00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:29.000
but it does seem like within one conversation if you apologize more than twice.

645
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:34.000
It starts to be more of a reminder of the bad thing that happened.

646
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:39.000
Like you just keep revisiting it and it brings you back to the negativity rather than moving forward.

647
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:44.000
We also studied apologies in a really large data set of parole hearings,

648
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.000
like among people who had committed really serious crimes.

649
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:53.000
And we looked at the types of apologies that they made during their parole hearings.

650
00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:58.000
And there it seems like you actually can't over-apologize, like more is better.

651
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:03.000
And again, the most effective component is making a promise to change in the future.

652
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:06.000
When I get out, I'm going to be in AA.

653
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:09.000
I'm going to live with my grandmother. Here's the job.

654
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:12.000
I'm going to do whatever the plan is.

655
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.000
You're actually more likely to get out of jail.

656
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:20.000
And going into those difficult conversations is that anything one needs to do to prepare.

657
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:23.000
Because our lives are full of difficult conversations,

658
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:26.000
and actually it's the avoidance of them that ends up messing up our lives the most.

659
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.000
So when you think about difficult conversations that we all have to have,

660
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.000
or with difficult people, do I have to prepare for that?

661
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.000
So this is very natural. Almost every person that you hear talk about communication

662
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:39.000
tends to focus on difficult conversations.

663
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:45.000
I'm going to suggest to you that that is a very narrow view of the conversational world, actually.

664
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:50.000
And in fact, thinking about difficult conversations is a little bit of a misnomer.

665
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:55.000
It's not like there are some conversations that are difficult and some that are easy.

666
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:59.000
It's that in every conversation, there can be moments of difference

667
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:02.000
where we use different language to mean the same thing,

668
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:06.000
where we have an incongruence in our emotions, where we have a difference in motives.

669
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:09.000
I want to give you advice, but you don't want to take it.

670
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:12.000
Or something dips down to a difference in our identities.

671
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.000
I'm American and you're a Brit.

672
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:19.000
So anytime you encounter these little fleeting moments of difference

673
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.000
in all of these different ways, and maybe there was an image here.

674
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.000
Let me see. No, it's not here.

675
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:27.000
It looks like layers. We talk about it like layers of the earth.

676
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:32.000
And above the surface are the words and sounds that you hear while people are talking.

677
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.000
Right at the surface are people's emotions.

678
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.000
So I feel excited, but you feel tired and bored.

679
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:41.000
That's going to be tough.

680
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:43.000
Right below that are people's motives.

681
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:45.000
What I want to expect to the compass.

682
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:48.000
What I want to achieve is different than what you want to achieve.

683
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:52.000
We're all walking around with a compass in our mind, and they're different from each other.

684
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:54.000
Right below that are our beliefs.

685
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.000
Right. I believe that immigration is a problem.

686
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:04.000
And you believe that AI is a way bigger problem than human immigration.

687
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:06.000
How do we talk about that in a way?

688
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:11.000
And then all of it gets dips down to the sort of hot magma in this layers of the earth model of our identities.

689
00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:14.000
So even an easy conversation, we're on a date.

690
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:17.000
Or we're two spouses are driving in a car.

691
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:19.000
Or friends are hanging out watching a movie.

692
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:25.000
Like you can stumble upon these little moments of difficulty any time for any reason.

693
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:30.000
And you need to have the skill set to be able to make sure the temperature doesn't get too hot.

694
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.000
What is that skill set?

695
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.000
There's a fabulous research on this.

696
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:37.000
I have found it incredibly helpful in my life.

697
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:41.000
Researched by Julien Minson, Mike Yomens, Hannah Collins called Receptiveness.

698
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:44.000
So it's Receptiveness to opposing viewpoints.

699
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:47.000
And it's both the mindset.

700
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:51.000
When someone comes to you with something that seems crazy,

701
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:53.000
you don't judge it negatively.

702
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:57.000
You have to fight the human instinct to think of it as like,

703
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:59.000
that's crazy, that's wrong.

704
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:01.000
And now I'm going to win.

705
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:04.000
And now I'm going to be right and prove you wrong.

706
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:09.000
Because all of those instincts ruin our conversations and our relationships.

707
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:10.000
Why?

708
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:13.000
It makes us defensive on the receiving end.

709
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:17.000
It makes us sort of accusatory and hostile on the attack end.

710
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:21.000
Once we get into an accusation and defense mode,

711
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.000
the conversation is broken down.

712
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:28.000
It's no longer about connection, savoring, protecting and advancing.

713
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:32.000
We're now in this new world that is not achieving any of our goals.

714
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.000
So someone comes to me and comes to you and says something's crazy.

715
00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:37.000
They say, you know, the sky is purple.

716
00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:38.000
Yeah.

717
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:41.000
It's actually, it's not blue, it's purple.

718
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.000
Here's a magical phrase that you can say in that moment.

719
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:47.000
It makes sense that you feel that the sky is purple.

720
00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:51.000
It makes sense that you feel excited to tell me that the sky is purple.

721
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.000
It makes sense that you feel X about Y.

722
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:57.000
It makes sense that you feel skeptical about podcasts.

723
00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:02.000
It makes sense that you feel annoyed that I speak quickly.

724
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:05.000
It makes sense that you are worried about AI.

725
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:08.000
Whatever people are feeling, whatever they express to you,

726
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:13.000
we can validate that feeling because whatever is going on in their mind is their reality.

727
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:17.000
And we have to say that out loud before we go on to do anything else,

728
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:20.000
even if we're about to disagree with them vehemently.

729
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:23.000
But we have to say the validation piece first,

730
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:26.000
just like therapists do all the time.

731
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:29.000
In order for them to feel heard, and like, oh yeah, I'm safe here,

732
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.000
so that I can join you on your side of the table.

733
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:35.000
And now we're going to untangle this weird problem together.

734
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:37.000
You say the sky is purple.

735
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:38.000
Tell me more.

736
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:41.000
Like, how did you come to feel like the sky is purple?

737
00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:44.000
Are you colorblind?

738
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:46.000
Do you see everything in purple?

739
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:50.000
Like, now I can ask you questions about how you came to that perspective,

740
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:52.000
and I can learn about it.

741
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.000
I guess the risk is you don't want to validate something wrong.

742
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:56.000
Yeah.

743
00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:57.000
Why not?

744
00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.000
You don't want to appear to be saying,

745
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:03.000
because if I say it makes sense that you think the sky is purple, but it's actually blue.

746
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:05.000
The word thinks is important.

747
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:08.000
It makes sense that you feel X about Y.

748
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:11.000
Not it makes sense that you think X about Y.

749
00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:13.000
Thinking is like a cognition.

750
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:15.000
Is the risk of it sounding patronizing?

751
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:20.000
Maybe, but in practice, it feels really, really good.

752
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:23.000
When I run this, so I run an exercise in my class where we go around,

753
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:26.000
let's say there's a group of five students.

754
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.000
And you have to share something.

755
00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:32.000
We start easy, like, share one song you love.

756
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:37.000
And then the next person has to validate that before they share there for a favorite next song.

757
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:39.000
You go around and around very quickly.

758
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.000
And so it feels very contrived to say, okay, you have to say,

759
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:44.000
I love that you love that Taylor Swift song.

760
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.000
That's so interesting.

761
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:47.000
I actually don't like Taylor Swift.

762
00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:51.000
It feels very contrived, but when you talk to the students after it,

763
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:53.000
they say, yes, I knew what we were doing.

764
00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:56.000
It did feel over the top to say that about people's song preferences.

765
00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:00.000
And still, it felt amazing to have the person next to me say,

766
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:03.000
I love that you love that Taylor Swift song.

767
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:09.000
Validation, we are all so hungry for validation that even ridiculous validation feels amazing.

768
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:15.000
So then when you get to round two and everybody's sharing something that they're really struggling with.

769
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:18.000
And the person next to them says, well, I'm so sorry.

770
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:20.000
That sounds really, really hard.

771
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:23.000
It makes sense that you feel upset about your mom.

772
00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:28.000
Now you've got that habit, and you're making them feel quite good

773
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:31.000
about something that actually does deserve that validation.

774
00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:34.000
So it's all about like developing these habits,

775
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:38.000
no matter where the difference or disagreement is coming from.

776
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:40.000
What's the opposite of that?

777
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.000
The opposite is how people naturally respond,

778
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:48.000
tend to naturally respond, which is by trying to win and prove them wrong

779
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:50.000
and prove that they're right.

780
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.000
So you say the sky is purple, and I say,

781
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:55.000
let's crazy, sky's blue.

782
00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:58.000
And then where does our conversation go?

783
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.000
It feels terrible for you.

784
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.000
It's so, I learned this because I employed this person once,

785
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.000
and this person, when we talk about ideas,

786
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:11.000
the first word out of their mouth was always, I disagree,

787
00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:12.000
and then they'd make their point.

788
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:13.000
That's right.

789
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:15.000
And I don't know what it was about it.

790
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.000
But I noticed that it would get my back up.

791
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:18.000
Of course.

792
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:21.000
So I'd say, I don't know, I'd say, I think we should do it like this.

793
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:22.000
I disagree.

794
00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:23.000
And then they'd make their point.

795
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.000
And I remember thinking, gosh, that's such a...

796
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:29.000
And it's so ironic because their goal is to persuade you.

797
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.000
At the end of it, they want you to agree with their position.

798
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:34.000
That's not at all how persuasion works.

799
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:40.000
The only way that we change our beliefs is usually cross many conversations

800
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:43.000
and we're around someone we like talking to

801
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.000
and respect and have admiration for.

802
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:48.000
And then over time, we sort of bend to the gentle pressure

803
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.000
of their differing viewpoint.

804
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:53.000
If I say, I disagree.

805
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:55.000
Now let's fight about it.

806
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.000
You get your back up and you're not enjoying talking to me.

807
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:03.000
Even if you're right, and right like it's not about being right or wrong

808
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:07.000
in that moment, the goal here is to keep the conversation

809
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:09.000
in an emotional place where it can continue.

810
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:11.000
So you can continue to engage.

811
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:14.000
And that's what these researchers find in this receptiveness.

812
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:17.000
Research is if you qualify your statement saying,

813
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:20.000
like, I wonder if the sky could be a different color

814
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:23.000
rather than the sky is blue with certainty.

815
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:26.000
There are all of these sort of hedging language.

816
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:28.000
You can divide yourself into multiple parts.

817
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:30.000
So if you said to me, the sky is purple,

818
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.000
I would say, oh my gosh, as your friend and as a painter,

819
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:35.000
that is so intriguing to me.

820
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:38.000
As a biologist or as a meteorologist,

821
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:41.000
maybe we should investigate that.

822
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:44.000
Literally dividing yourself into two disagreeing parts.

823
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:46.000
It's usually how we actually feel.

824
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:48.000
So if your mother says something crazy to you,

825
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.000
that seems crazy to you, you could say as your daughter,

826
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:53.000
I'm so intrigued that you've come to hold that perspective.

827
00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:54.000
I'd love to hear more.

828
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.000
You know, as a representative of Gen Z,

829
00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:00.000
I know my friends would want you to want me to say this.

830
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:03.000
It means that you can hold two perspectives at once

831
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:05.000
and it is very helpful to the other person

832
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.000
to keep the conversation going.

833
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:09.000
But all of the elements of this receptiveness recipe

834
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:11.000
have this flavor.

835
00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:12.000
It's a little surprising.

836
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:15.000
I think often people think of these types of things as weakness

837
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.000
because it's like our instinct is to try to win and be right.

838
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:23.000
And instead, what I'm saying is, no, head your claims.

839
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:25.000
Show that you're uncertain about stuff.

840
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:26.000
Validate their feelings.

841
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:28.000
Divide yourself into disagreeing parts

842
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:30.000
because you're not certain about anything

843
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:33.000
in order to keep the conversation going.

844
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:35.000
So that you have any shred of hope

845
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:37.000
of persuading them over the longer term?

846
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:39.000
I remember Tali Sharat telling me about study.

847
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:42.000
Either she told me, she's a neuroscientist in London.

848
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:44.000
And she told me they put two people

849
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:46.000
in a brain imaging scanner

850
00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:48.000
and got them to like look at photos

851
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:52.000
and come to agreement on the price of something.

852
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:53.000
Yes.

853
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:55.000
And then eventually in these studies, I'm super paraphrasing here.

854
00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:56.000
She's probably like cringes.

855
00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:57.000
I think I know what study you're talking about.

856
00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.000
Oh, do you could you explain it?

857
00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:02.000
Yes, so they studied what lights up in your brain

858
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:05.000
when you're in a situation of disagreement versus agreement.

859
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Yeah.

860
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.000
And it is actually more taxing to your mind

861
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:10.000
when someone is disagreeing with you.

862
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.000
It's like these neurological alarm bells go off.

863
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:16.000
And all of a sudden, like you describe,

864
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000
what was your friend, my back goes up?

865
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:20.000
Yeah, my back goes up, my back up.

866
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000
That's it. It's actually in your brain.

867
00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:22.000
Your brain goes up.

868
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:25.000
And it's hard, it's very hard to continue to engage

869
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:28.000
once that process is underway.

870
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.000
Yeah.

871
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:31.000
Some people call it a migdala hijacking,

872
00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:33.000
which is not quite right.

873
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:35.000
But your brain does look different

874
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.000
when you're in a situation of disagreement.

875
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:39.000
So whatever we can do conversationally

876
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:42.000
to sort of tempt that down so that your back doesn't go up

877
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:44.000
is going to be quite helpful.

878
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:47.000
She showed pictures of the brain in these scans

879
00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:49.000
when someone disagrees with you.

880
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:51.000
And I think, and I might be getting this inverted,

881
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:54.000
that it was almost like the brain had shut down

882
00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:56.000
to receptiveness in that moment.

883
00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:58.000
It was like, so I always, I want to write this chapter

884
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:00.000
in my book called Do Not Disagree.

885
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:01.000
It's an intentionally provocative chapter,

886
00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:02.000
because people think,

887
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:03.000
would you be never disagree with anybody?

888
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.000
No, that's right.

889
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:06.000
But I mean, like, don't make the first thing you say

890
00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:07.000
I disagree.

891
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:08.000
That's right.

892
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:09.000
It can come later.

893
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:10.000
100%.

894
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:11.000
It can come later, but first has to come like,

895
00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:13.000
that's so intriguing that you said that I'm so fascinated

896
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:15.000
and it makes sense that you might feel that way.

897
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:19.000
I wonder if, and then you can go on instead of I disagree.

898
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:21.000
I met a girl called Anne,

899
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:25.000
who always said yes and instead of butt.

900
00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:26.000
Good.

901
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:27.000
And it shocked me.

902
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:28.000
Yeah.

903
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:29.000
Because it was so different.

904
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:30.000
I, having a conversation with her,

905
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.000
you say something to her and you go,

906
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:33.000
I think that she goes, yes and,

907
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:34.000
and then she would make her point.

908
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:36.000
And it could be a complete disagreement.

909
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:38.000
But I noticed she was doing it and I loved it.

910
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:39.000
Oh, yeah.

911
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:42.000
And we often think of the yes and as part of sort of improv,

912
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.000
comedy, humor, et cetera.

913
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:47.000
They were, the comedians are really on to something

914
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:50.000
much more profound about conversation broadly.

915
00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:53.000
If you can come from a sort of mindset or like,

916
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:57.000
a spiritual place of yes and essentially you're saying,

917
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:00.000
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here,

918
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:03.000
even though what you're saying seems a little crazy.

919
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:06.000
That's what is required to have great relationships.

920
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:08.000
It's like we're all going to have these moments

921
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.000
where someone feels something or says something

922
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:13.000
that seems crazy and if you react to it

923
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:16.000
in an invalidating way,

924
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:18.000
that's how we kill our relationships.

925
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:20.000
Do we need to kill the word butt?

926
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:22.000
Because what ends up happening is someone will say,

927
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:24.000
I think you just said about validating relationship.

928
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:26.000
Yes, I completely understand.

929
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:28.000
I think you made a great point, Alison.

930
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:30.000
And the minute I say butt,

931
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:32.000
it's kind of like I've just taken an eraser to everything you just said.

932
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:36.000
I would love to get rid of the word but not butt with two teas,

933
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:37.000
but with one tea.

934
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:38.000
Yes.

935
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:41.000
Yeah.

936
00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:42.000
You never need it.

937
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:45.000
You can make the same point and say Ant.

938
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:50.000
But it just completely, it just immediately says.

939
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:55.000
It also reveals that you're sitting there

940
00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:58.000
in a state of I can't wait.

941
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:00.000
I'm like on the tip of my tongue is something

942
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:03.000
I can't wait to say that's opposite of what you're saying.

943
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:07.000
And it's the spirit of it is antagonistic.

944
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:09.000
One of the things we notice when we have conversations

945
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:15.000
about conversation is people really care about likability.

946
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.000
Yes.

947
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:18.000
Like they really want to know what's making them disliked.

948
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:21.000
They really want to know how to be liked.

949
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:22.000
Good.

950
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.000
So being liked is a huge drive.

951
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:29.000
But it's just one of many things that we care about

952
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000
in terms of gaining status.

953
00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:35.000
So status is respect, admiration, liking and the eyes of other people.

954
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:38.000
Liking is usually comes from sort of warmth and charm.

955
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:42.000
Admiration often comes from like perceptions of competence.

956
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:46.000
So we want warmth and competence at once, ideally.

957
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:47.000
Okay.

958
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:48.000
Let's go back in time.

959
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:49.000
Should we talk about the talk framework

960
00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:52.000
because they're going to be little clues about how to be

961
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:54.000
better liked across the whole framework.

962
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:55.000
Okay.

963
00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:56.000
Okay.

964
00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:57.000
Let's start with T.

965
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.000
I'm going to push these to the side.

966
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:03.000
T is first I just want to say as a whole framework,

967
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:08.000
TALK is the most comprehensive, teachable, practical,

968
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:13.000
scientifically rigorous framework in the world for communication.

969
00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:14.000
Did you invent it?

970
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:15.000
I did.

971
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:20.000
But when I first wrote the book, I didn't say it strongly enough.

972
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:25.000
And in the last almost year, I've come to realize why one part is

973
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.000
because most people focus only on difficult conversations.

974
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:30.000
And here we are focusing on all conversations,

975
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:33.000
even the ones that seem like they should be easy and fun.

976
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:37.000
It's all conversations everywhere, personal and professional.

977
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:40.000
The other piece is that I didn't even really intend this as a scientist,

978
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:44.000
but the way we do research is essentially natural language

979
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:47.000
processing machine learning fits into this new world of AI.

980
00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:52.000
So the framework can be used by humans or machines to coach people

981
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:56.000
to be better conversationalists and use as a rubric after the fact

982
00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.000
of saying, okay, how did this go?

983
00:49:58.000 --> 00:49:59.000
Did you do well?

984
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:02.000
Let's look at TALK and evaluate.

985
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:03.000
Okay.

986
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:04.000
It's the best in the world ever.

987
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:05.000
Thank you, Steven.

988
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:06.000
Thank you.

989
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:07.000
Thank you for asking.

990
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:08.000
Oh, yeah, no, yeah.

991
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:09.000
Okay.

992
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:10.000
T is for topics.

993
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:11.000
Topics.

994
00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:12.000
Topics.

995
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:15.000
Topics are the building blocks of conversation.

996
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:18.000
It is what we choose to talk about.

997
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:19.000
Very simple.

998
00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:23.000
We all have an intuitive understanding that we sort of work through different chunks.

999
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:26.000
First, we're going to talk about your conversation with your girlfriend,

1000
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:28.000
then we're going to talk about the talk framework,

1001
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.000
then we're talking about the compass, whatever,

1002
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:31.000
working through topics.

1003
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:35.000
What I think most people don't realize is that we're choosing topics

1004
00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:37.000
every time we talk.

1005
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:41.000
It's not just at the beginning of a conversation like an opener.

1006
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:44.000
Like, hey, what do you think of this, you know, the diplomat?

1007
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:48.000
No, every time you're talking, we're making moves to gently stay on topic

1008
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:50.000
or switch to something else.

1009
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:53.000
What's so beautiful about that is it means we all have power.

1010
00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:59.000
We all have control to nudge the conversation one way or another.

1011
00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:03.000
And we can all do a better job with it.

1012
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:07.000
So what's the game here to pick better topics to know what topic we're aiming at?

1013
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.000
There's a lot of goals.

1014
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.000
It's both about choosing better topics.

1015
00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:15.000
It's also about how can we make any topic better?

1016
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:20.000
Okay, one huge piece of advice that when you start to realize

1017
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:23.000
how much your mind is doing during a live conversation

1018
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:27.000
is to offload some of that cognitive work to beforehand.

1019
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:28.000
Okay.

1020
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:30.000
So prepping topics ahead of time.

1021
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.000
This does not mean writing out an agenda before you call your parents

1022
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:36.000
or before you call your girlfriend.

1023
00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:40.000
What it does mean is spending even 30 seconds, maybe even 10 seconds

1024
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:43.000
before you're in the chaos of a conversation

1025
00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:45.000
to think about what you could talk about

1026
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:47.000
or what might be important for you to remember to talk about.

1027
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:49.000
Did you do that today?

1028
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:50.000
Always.

1029
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.000
Sometimes you don't have to write like you did it today.

1030
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.000
You did extensive prep.

1031
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:57.000
You even have things printed on cards here.

1032
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:01.000
And in a way, I have been prepping for this conversation for 20 years.

1033
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:03.000
I've been studying these things.

1034
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:04.000
I'm the framework myself.

1035
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.000
I've gotten on 80 other podcasts.

1036
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:10.000
That's all prep for this moment.

1037
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:12.000
What about in your personal life?

1038
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.000
Can you give me an example of where you prepared topics?

1039
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:16.000
Every conversation that I know is coming.

1040
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.000
I'm an example.

1041
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:21.000
So with Cassie before I got here.

1042
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:22.000
Which is a member of our team.

1043
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:23.000
Yes, thank you.

1044
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:28.000
I thought about, I wanted to ask her what it's like to be moving

1045
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:30.000
from London to LA.

1046
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.000
I wanted to ask her what it's like to work with you.

1047
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:33.000
She said, oh, good.

1048
00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:34.000
Oh, good.

1049
00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:35.000
Oh, good things.

1050
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:36.000
Okay.

1051
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:37.000
Next question.

1052
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:38.000
What does A.M.

1053
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:39.000
Jack.

1054
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:40.000
Jack.

1055
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:41.000
So funny.

1056
00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:43.000
I often will.

1057
00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:44.000
So you can.

1058
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:46.000
It's not rocket science.

1059
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.000
It's literally just a little bit of forethought.

1060
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:53.000
What kinds of questions or topics could I ask you that will make our conversation feel

1061
00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:58.000
a little bit better than just like winging it in the moment and talking about like some random thing

1062
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:00.000
I see in the room.

1063
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:05.000
I try to do this before every conversation because now I know how powerful it is and how kind it is.

1064
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:09.000
If you are calling somebody and you're like, okay, oh, yeah, their kid was going to take

1065
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:10.000
a tar lessons.

1066
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:11.000
I should remember to ask about that.

1067
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:14.000
Or, oh, my friend had this big presentation at work.

1068
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:17.000
I should remember to ask how that went.

1069
00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:19.000
That means you're going to remember to ask them.

1070
00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:20.000
And that's super kind.

1071
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.000
And they're excited to talk about it too.

1072
00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:24.000
It makes everything better.

1073
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:26.000
So topic prep is a huge deal.

1074
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:32.000
When you randomly assign people to prep topics or not, the conversations where people have thought

1075
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:35.000
ahead, even for 30 seconds, they feel less anxious.

1076
00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:36.000
They're much smoother.

1077
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:37.000
There are fewer disfluencies.

1078
00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:40.000
So ums as stutters between topics.

1079
00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:44.000
They cover more topics, which is usually a good thing.

1080
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:46.000
More likely to land on good topics.

1081
00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:47.000
You're less likely to blurt.

1082
00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:51.000
So you're less likely to share things that you don't want to share with people.

1083
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:54.000
It's just an incredibly powerful strategy.

1084
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:57.000
And it doesn't need to be complicated.

1085
00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:01.000
I've gotten the habit of putting like two or three bullet points for people in my Google

1086
00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:04.000
calendar notes when you know you have a meeting coming up.

1087
00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:06.000
And you don't even have to do it right before.

1088
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:10.000
Like, oh, a week ahead of time, if it pops in my head that I want to ask Steven about,

1089
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:12.000
do you want to have children?

1090
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:17.000
I might write that as a little bullet point in my calendar note for the time that I'm going to be here with you.

1091
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:19.000
And then I'll be more likely to remember it.

1092
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:21.000
Do you feel a little skeptical about this?

1093
00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:22.000
No.

1094
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:25.000
I was just thinking it probably makes you more going back to the point about like ability.

1095
00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:27.000
It probably makes you more likeable person.

1096
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:28.000
Much more likeable.

1097
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:29.000
Yeah.

1098
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:34.000
In fact, if you can achieve more of your goals, whether they're high informational, low informational,

1099
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:39.000
high relational, low relational, all of that makes you more likeable.

1100
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:40.000
You're seeing more competent.

1101
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:45.000
You see more warm, especially when you lean towards those pro-social, high relational goals.

1102
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:49.000
Because everyone talks about how if you're interested in someone else like you're interested in cosy.

1103
00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:50.000
Yes.

1104
00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:54.000
That must have felt good for her, which must make her like you more.

1105
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:56.000
We should go ask her.

1106
00:54:56.000 --> 00:54:57.000
That's a good point.

1107
00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:02.000
I ask them, I have my students sometimes you have a reflection task where I say, if you had to walk into a room

1108
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:09.000
and your job was to make people like you a one out of ten, a five out of ten, or a ten out of ten,

1109
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:13.000
what are the behaviors that you would do to try and pursue those three worlds?

1110
00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:14.000
Okay.

1111
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:17.000
So if I wanted people to like me one out of ten, what would you do?

1112
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:18.000
What would you do?

1113
00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:19.000
You tell me.

1114
00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:20.000
You tell me.

1115
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:21.000
You're the expert.

1116
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:22.000
I want to hear your guesses.

1117
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:23.000
My guesses.

1118
00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:29.000
I would walk in quiet on my phone and I would ignore them.

1119
00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:30.000
Yeah.

1120
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:33.000
And maybe I'd look up and make some kind of snide comment.

1121
00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:35.000
I definitely wouldn't notice that they were there.

1122
00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:36.000
Yeah.

1123
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:40.000
And I wouldn't make eye contact with them.

1124
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:44.000
I would maybe be really like, maybe like take a phone call.

1125
00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:47.000
As I was going to say, you get ones really low.

1126
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.000
So you probably insults, probably.

1127
00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:50.000
Oh yeah, I'd offend them.

1128
00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:51.000
Yeah, offend them.

1129
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:56.000
Maybe take a phone call and then while you're on the phone call, talk about how great you are.

1130
00:55:56.000 --> 00:55:59.000
Or something like some sort of arrogance, etc.

1131
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:00.000
Yeah.

1132
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.000
Maybe if they try and talk to you, interrupt them.

1133
00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:04.000
Yeah.

1134
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:05.000
Be like not now.

1135
00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:08.000
Or look at my phone midway through what they're saying.

1136
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:09.000
Yeah.

1137
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:10.000
Okay.

1138
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:12.000
So there's lots of things you can imagine there.

1139
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:13.000
Okay.

1140
00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:14.000
Just on topics though, right?

1141
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:17.800
When you think about, okay, I'm talking on the phone in front of them.

1142
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:21.800
And what am I going to be talking about that reduces my likeability, even for someone who's

1143
00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:23.000
like just observing you talking.

1144
00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:24.000
I'd get the name out.

1145
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.000
That's great.

1146
00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.000
Yep.

1147
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:27.000
Yep, yep, yep.

1148
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:28.000
That's a good way to say you don't matter to me.

1149
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.000
Yeah.

1150
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:30.000
Yeah.

1151
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:31.200
Five out of 10 is an interesting one.

1152
00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:32.200
You want to do it.

1153
00:56:32.200 --> 00:56:37.920
Probably more blasey, like you engage with them, but not very well.

1154
00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:39.560
Talk about small talk topics.

1155
00:56:39.560 --> 00:56:42.960
Like you were saying, things that you could talk about with anyone that are not personalized

1156
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:47.760
at all seem a bit disinterested, but not offensive.

1157
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:48.760
Just bland.

1158
00:56:48.760 --> 00:56:49.760
Okay.

1159
00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:50.760
Okay.

1160
00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:51.760
Then we get to 10 out of 10 world.

1161
00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:52.760
10 out of 10 likeability.

1162
00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:53.760
Yeah.

1163
00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:56.560
What are you doing if you're trying to get 10 out of 10?

1164
00:56:56.560 --> 00:56:58.360
I am completely focused on them.

1165
00:56:58.360 --> 00:56:59.760
Good.

1166
00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:00.760
I'm attentive.

1167
00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:01.760
I'm complimentary.

1168
00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:02.760
I'm going to flatter them.

1169
00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:03.760
Yep.

1170
00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:05.760
Do you think it will seem obsequious?

1171
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:07.760
I don't know if I get it right.

1172
00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:08.760
Okay.

1173
00:57:08.760 --> 00:57:09.760
Yeah.

1174
00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:10.760
Because I'm going to mean it.

1175
00:57:10.760 --> 00:57:11.760
Yeah.

1176
00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:12.760
Because it's going to be sincere.

1177
00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:13.760
It's going to be really sincere.

1178
00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:14.760
Yeah.

1179
00:57:14.760 --> 00:57:15.760
I'm going to crack a great joke.

1180
00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:16.760
Yes.

1181
00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:17.760
Knock knock.

1182
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:18.760
Yeah.

1183
00:57:18.760 --> 00:57:19.760
Who's there?

1184
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:20.760
I don't know.

1185
00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:21.760
I don't know.

1186
00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:22.760
You're like, I don't know.

1187
00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:23.760
You're acting exactly.

1188
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:24.760
Yeah.

1189
00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:25.760
I'm going to flatter them.

1190
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:26.760
Crack jokes.

1191
00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:27.760
Be very attentive.

1192
00:57:27.760 --> 00:57:28.760
Get their name right.

1193
00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:29.760
Ask them about their grandchild.

1194
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:30.760
Good.

1195
00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:31.760
Okay.

1196
00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:32.760
Let's pause.

1197
00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:33.760
I want to.

1198
00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:36.760
In that description already, you're moving quite quickly through topics.

1199
00:57:36.760 --> 00:57:41.760
You can't be circling the drain talking about the weather for long periods of time.

1200
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:45.760
So just briefly, let me say, we don't need to avoid small talk.

1201
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:50.760
In fact, it's a very important social ritual for people who are strangers to each other.

1202
00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:52.760
People who haven't seen each other in a long time.

1203
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:56.760
It's where we land and say, oh, we're doing conversation now.

1204
00:57:56.760 --> 00:58:01.760
The mistake that people make is they stay there too long.

1205
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:02.760
Way too long.

1206
00:58:02.760 --> 00:58:06.760
Any more than like one beat of, oh, my goodness, the weather's really warm.

1207
00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:08.760
It's like summer in California.

1208
00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:14.760
Then you need to make it more personal and move up this topic pyramid towards medium talk,

1209
00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:16.760
deep talk quickly, right?

1210
00:58:16.760 --> 00:58:17.760
So small talk is at the bottom.

1211
00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:19.760
These are topics anybody can talk about.

1212
00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:24.760
Tailored talk is more exciting, more personalized, more relevant to your interest.

1213
00:58:24.760 --> 00:58:26.760
Deep talk is the peak of this pyramid.

1214
00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:30.760
Only we can talk about this thing in this special way.

1215
00:58:30.760 --> 00:58:33.760
Not every conversation is bound to get to the deep talk.

1216
00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:36.760
But when it does, we should feel very appreciative.

1217
00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:39.760
It's one of the most magical things about being humans.

1218
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:44.760
So we don't need to get to deep talk with like the Marista at Starbucks or with your neighbor

1219
00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:46.760
when they're taking out their trash.

1220
00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:48.760
But it does happen sometimes and it's quite lovely.

1221
00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:53.760
I think I used to put girls off when I was 11 because I used to ask them like the meaning of life too quickly.

1222
00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:55.760
I remember they stole a Nokia phone.

1223
00:58:55.760 --> 00:58:57.760
And so they would stop texting back.

1224
00:58:57.760 --> 00:59:00.760
So I think I learned early that like some people just don't like it.

1225
00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:01.760
Well, the jokes on them now.

1226
00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:03.760
Now you get to do it for your life's work.

1227
00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:06.760
No, but I think we're you were on to something there.

1228
00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:08.760
It's not that you asked them about the meaning of life at all.

1229
00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:10.760
You asked it too quickly.

1230
00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:13.760
So getting it's about the pacing as we move up here.

1231
00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:15.760
Most people stay too long at the bottom.

1232
00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:18.760
But we also cannot jump to the top often.

1233
00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:23.760
You kind of have to do the ritual of climbing to feel like you get there in a natural way.

1234
00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:25.760
And is that where relationships are built? Deep ones.

1235
00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:26.760
For sure.

1236
00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:29.760
For example, moments at the top probably, right?

1237
00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:31.760
This is where vulnerability takes you.

1238
00:59:31.760 --> 00:59:38.760
Often asking lots of questions, especially follow up questions gets you up the pyramid more quickly.

1239
00:59:38.760 --> 00:59:41.760
So shall we shall we shift to the A of the talk framework?

1240
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:45.760
Because A is for asking.

1241
00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:48.760
Topics and asking are intimately tied to each other.

1242
00:59:48.760 --> 00:59:53.760
The most common way that people switch topics is by asking a question.

1243
00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:56.760
So you can use questions like what are you excited about recently?

1244
00:59:56.760 --> 00:59:59.760
Or what has been your favorite guest to talk to?

1245
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:02.760
Or what have you and your girlfriend done together recently?

1246
01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:04.760
You can do that to switch topics.

1247
01:00:04.760 --> 01:00:12.760
Once you're on a topic, we use follow up questions to kind of dive deeply and move up the topic pyramid.

1248
01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:15.760
So you think I should ask more questions?

1249
01:00:15.760 --> 01:00:16.760
Yes.

1250
01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:18.760
Okay. Well, ask more than they're asking me.

1251
01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:21.760
Maybe not you because you spend a lot of time asking questions.

1252
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:28.760
But most people, the top line advice to make their conversations better is to ask many more questions.

1253
01:00:28.760 --> 01:00:31.760
Asking it sounds so simple.

1254
01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:33.760
And it's almost like everybody already knows that.

1255
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:36.760
But doing it in practice is quite hard.

1256
01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:38.760
And it's a skill.

1257
01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:42.760
And people who do it well are more successful on romantic dates.

1258
01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:44.760
They're more successful in work meetings.

1259
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:46.760
They're more successful as collaborators.

1260
01:00:46.760 --> 01:00:49.760
They're more successful as entrepreneurs in getting funding.

1261
01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:53.760
All of it hinges on question asking.

1262
01:00:53.760 --> 01:00:56.760
So the top line advice just ask more questions.

1263
01:00:56.760 --> 01:00:59.760
At the very least, don't be a zero question asker.

1264
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:02.760
What happens to the fate of zero question askers?

1265
01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:04.760
They're not getting a second date.

1266
01:01:04.760 --> 01:01:06.760
They're not going to get that funding.

1267
01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:12.760
They're not learning enough about their partner to enable them to succeed.

1268
01:01:12.760 --> 01:01:16.760
If you go on a first date and you're asking zero questions, which like imagine that,

1269
01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:21.760
you've all sort of been on that date probably, you want to leave within 10 minutes.

1270
01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:25.760
When you're in a first date, you have so much to learn about each other.

1271
01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:28.760
You have everything to learn about each other.

1272
01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:34.760
So if someone's not asking, it's a real, real, real problem, especially,

1273
01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:39.760
I think this is a very especially good hack for men on heterosexual dates.

1274
01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:43.760
Often what they're getting wrong is that they're not asking enough questions.

1275
01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:45.760
How did you know this?

1276
01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:47.760
From data.

1277
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:50.760
Yeah, so we have a thousand speed dates.

1278
01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:55.760
The outcome is does the other person want to go on a second date with you?

1279
01:01:55.760 --> 01:01:57.760
We have transcripts.

1280
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:02.760
It was an amazing study run by this incredible research group at Sanford about 10 years ago.

1281
01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:06.760
You can just measure it, measure how many questions they ask on each date.

1282
01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:12.760
People who ask more questions are enormously more likely to get asked on a second date.

1283
01:02:12.760 --> 01:02:13.760
So much so.

1284
01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:15.760
Imagine you go on 21st dates.

1285
01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:22.760
And I say, okay, Steven, you just have to ask one extra question on those 20 dates.

1286
01:02:22.760 --> 01:02:28.760
If you do, you'll convert another date into a second date from just one question per date.

1287
01:02:28.760 --> 01:02:29.760
According to the data.

1288
01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:30.760
Yes.

1289
01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:35.760
It's true for both men and women, but it's particularly helpful for men

1290
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:38.760
because they ask fewer questions on average than women do.

1291
01:02:38.760 --> 01:02:39.760
Really?

1292
01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:40.760
Yeah.

1293
01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:47.760
And the other funny gender effect in the data is that men are just more likely to agree to go on second dates.

1294
01:02:47.760 --> 01:02:50.760
They're less discerning in general.

1295
01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:55.760
But if they want, if men want to get asked on the second date, just ask more questions.

1296
01:02:55.760 --> 01:02:58.760
What is it me asking more questions doing to the other person?

1297
01:02:58.760 --> 01:03:03.760
It makes them feel heard and like you want to know their answer that you're interested in them.

1298
01:03:03.760 --> 01:03:08.760
So it signals your interest, but also you learn what's in their mind and what their experience is,

1299
01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:13.760
which gives arms you with more information to then ask more better questions.

1300
01:03:13.760 --> 01:03:16.760
So it's not just about asking more, although that's a good start.

1301
01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:19.760
It's about asking fuck great follow-up questions.

1302
01:03:19.760 --> 01:03:26.760
The benefits of question asking are almost entirely driven by the power of follow-up questions.

1303
01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.760
So what, give me an example of asking a great follow-up question.

1304
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:30.760
We're on a date.

1305
01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:33.760
There's food, it's going really well.

1306
01:03:33.760 --> 01:03:38.760
I've just shared with you that I went on an amazing walk down the sunset strip this morning.

1307
01:03:38.760 --> 01:03:40.760
And then I would say, really?

1308
01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:42.760
Oh my God, I've always wanted to go.

1309
01:03:42.760 --> 01:03:43.760
Tell me about it.

1310
01:03:43.760 --> 01:03:44.760
Oh, incredible.

1311
01:03:44.760 --> 01:03:46.760
So I got to this point.

1312
01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:48.760
I had never been there before.

1313
01:03:48.760 --> 01:03:49.760
There was.

1314
01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:54.760
I had to decide was like in a veer off and go see the Maryland Monroe apartment,

1315
01:03:54.760 --> 01:03:57.760
which by the way is right next to the Frank Lloyd Wright house,

1316
01:03:57.760 --> 01:04:00.760
or was I going to go a few blocks away?

1317
01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:02.760
Was the Menendez brothers house?

1318
01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:03.760
Who's that?

1319
01:04:03.760 --> 01:04:05.760
The two brothers who killed their parents.

1320
01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:06.760
Oh, sure.

1321
01:04:06.760 --> 01:04:07.760
On Netflix.

1322
01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:08.760
Yeah.

1323
01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:10.760
So I would literally, right in between,

1324
01:04:10.760 --> 01:04:13.760
and I was at this crossroads, do I choose cultured?

1325
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:16.760
Do I choose morbid curiosity?

1326
01:04:16.760 --> 01:04:18.760
And which one did you choose?

1327
01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:19.760
I went with cultured.

1328
01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:21.760
I was too afraid of myself.

1329
01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:23.760
You're so cute.

1330
01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:26.760
So, okay, so we, okay, we're off our date now.

1331
01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:27.760
That was so fun.

1332
01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:29.760
You were asking such lovely questions,

1333
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:31.760
and it really helped to cheer me on.

1334
01:04:31.760 --> 01:04:34.760
You actually wanted to hear this story.

1335
01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:38.760
Even though it might, like someone else might have been not that interested,

1336
01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:40.760
and then you feel embarrassed.

1337
01:04:40.760 --> 01:04:42.760
Like, oh, I just shared a bunch of vulnerable stuff.

1338
01:04:42.760 --> 01:04:45.760
I was walking alone in LA.

1339
01:04:45.760 --> 01:04:50.760
I had morbid curiosity about these two brothers in this story.

1340
01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:54.760
It's very easy to make someone feel invalidated in that moment,

1341
01:04:54.760 --> 01:04:57.760
but follow-up questions make me feel like,

1342
01:04:57.760 --> 01:04:58.760
oh, he wants to know more.

1343
01:04:58.760 --> 01:05:00.760
He's coming with me on this journey.

1344
01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:01.760
So did I do the right thing then?

1345
01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:02.760
Yeah, you were doing great.

1346
01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:03.760
Okay, yeah.

1347
01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:06.760
And what's the wrong thing to have done for me to just...

1348
01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:08.760
Oh, imagine if I had been like,

1349
01:05:08.760 --> 01:05:11.760
oh, I went on this amazing walk down the sunset strip,

1350
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:14.760
and you said, oh, my favorite restaurant on the strip is a sushi place.

1351
01:05:14.760 --> 01:05:15.760
Oh, shit.

1352
01:05:15.760 --> 01:05:17.760
I went to this amazing restaurant,

1353
01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:18.760
and I went to this amazing store.

1354
01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:20.760
Yeah, they carried our meds.

1355
01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:22.760
I bought an amazing pair of boots.

1356
01:05:22.760 --> 01:05:24.760
People do that all the time.

1357
01:05:24.760 --> 01:05:25.760
Constantly.

1358
01:05:25.760 --> 01:05:26.760
So this is called boomer asking.

1359
01:05:26.760 --> 01:05:27.760
Boomer asking.

1360
01:05:27.760 --> 01:05:28.760
Not because of boomers.

1361
01:05:28.760 --> 01:05:29.760
We love it.

1362
01:05:29.760 --> 01:05:30.760
What are you saying?

1363
01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:31.760
It's for people of all ages.

1364
01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:32.760
Commit boomers.

1365
01:05:32.760 --> 01:05:33.760
It's a boomerang.

1366
01:05:33.760 --> 01:05:34.760
Oh, I agree.

1367
01:05:34.760 --> 01:05:35.760
So I say to you...

1368
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:36.760
I lost subscribers.

1369
01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:39.760
No, we love boomers.

1370
01:05:39.760 --> 01:05:42.760
So I say to you, like, Stephen, what's your favorite restaurant?

1371
01:05:42.760 --> 01:05:43.760
Mr. Chow.

1372
01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:44.760
Oh, I've been to Mr. Chow's.

1373
01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:45.760
Last time I went to Mr. Chow's,

1374
01:05:45.760 --> 01:05:47.760
I went with a whole bunch of friends,

1375
01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:48.760
and I had a friend who was really...

1376
01:05:48.760 --> 01:05:49.760
Who did that all the time?

1377
01:05:49.760 --> 01:05:50.760
So I've asked a question.

1378
01:05:50.760 --> 01:05:52.760
You've shared something with me.

1379
01:05:52.760 --> 01:05:53.760
That is such a gift.

1380
01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:55.760
Any sort of self-disclosure, such a gift.

1381
01:05:55.760 --> 01:05:56.760
And instead of saying,

1382
01:05:56.760 --> 01:05:58.760
oh, who did you go with?

1383
01:05:58.760 --> 01:05:59.760
Or what did you order?

1384
01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:00.760
Or what is it like inside?

1385
01:06:00.760 --> 01:06:01.760
How did you like it?

1386
01:06:01.760 --> 01:06:03.760
I bring it...

1387
01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:06.760
The focus of the conversation right back to myself.

1388
01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:09.760
People that do that don't know they do it.

1389
01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:10.760
Correct.

1390
01:06:10.760 --> 01:06:11.760
Because I will...

1391
01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:13.760
Obviously, you know, I will go for dinner

1392
01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:15.760
or we'll have, I don't know, ten of my colleagues there.

1393
01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:18.760
And then sometimes I'll have one particular colleague

1394
01:06:18.760 --> 01:06:19.760
who is doing exactly that.

1395
01:06:19.760 --> 01:06:20.760
Yes.

1396
01:06:20.760 --> 01:06:21.760
And they have no idea.

1397
01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:22.760
Don't you want to be like...

1398
01:06:22.760 --> 01:06:23.760
Yes.

1399
01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:24.760
Stop.

1400
01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:26.760
Just like, ask them about their thing.

1401
01:06:26.760 --> 01:06:27.760
They're new here.

1402
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:28.760
We're trying to make them feel comfortable.

1403
01:06:28.760 --> 01:06:30.760
Even one follow-up question.

1404
01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:31.760
Meg be enough.

1405
01:06:31.760 --> 01:06:33.760
And so if you use this mindset of like,

1406
01:06:33.760 --> 01:06:37.760
ask the next question before you pull it back to yourself.

1407
01:06:37.760 --> 01:06:39.760
It sometimes can be enough.

1408
01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:41.760
Probably many more follow-up questions is better.

1409
01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:43.760
But even just one where I was like,

1410
01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:45.760
oh, who did you go to Mr. Chow's with?

1411
01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:46.760
And I let you answer.

1412
01:06:46.760 --> 01:06:48.760
Then I say, oh, I've been there too.

1413
01:06:48.760 --> 01:06:49.760
You can see it happening in the head.

1414
01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:51.760
Because you say the word Mr. Chow's is your favorite restaurant.

1415
01:06:51.760 --> 01:06:52.760
And they imagine...

1416
01:06:52.760 --> 01:06:53.760
There's an association.

1417
01:06:53.760 --> 01:06:55.760
I've got brilliant story about Mr. Chow's

1418
01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:56.760
that I need to tell everybody.

1419
01:06:56.760 --> 01:06:58.760
It makes sense that people do this.

1420
01:06:58.760 --> 01:07:00.760
Our brains are incredibly...

1421
01:07:00.760 --> 01:07:02.760
are wired to be egocentric.

1422
01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:04.760
We know all of our lived experiences,

1423
01:07:04.760 --> 01:07:07.760
our own, with 100% accuracy.

1424
01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:08.760
We lived it.

1425
01:07:08.760 --> 01:07:09.760
It's all up here.

1426
01:07:09.760 --> 01:07:11.760
So anything that we see or hear in our conversations

1427
01:07:12.760 --> 01:07:14.760
is of course going to trigger all of these memories

1428
01:07:14.760 --> 01:07:17.760
and associations in your mind about your lived experience.

1429
01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:20.760
And it's such an enemy of good conversation

1430
01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:22.760
because it constantly tugs you away

1431
01:07:22.760 --> 01:07:25.760
from being interested in the other person first.

1432
01:07:25.760 --> 01:07:27.760
The other thing I've seen in meetings,

1433
01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:29.760
which I've had to have a conversation about historically,

1434
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:31.760
is when someone will be talking

1435
01:07:31.760 --> 01:07:33.760
and then someone's listening and going,

1436
01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:34.760
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1437
01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:36.760
And I know I'm like, oh, my God,

1438
01:07:36.760 --> 01:07:37.760
they've got something to say.

1439
01:07:37.760 --> 01:07:38.760
I know.

1440
01:07:38.760 --> 01:07:39.760
And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1441
01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:40.760
They're yaring them out.

1442
01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:41.760
Yes.

1443
01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:43.760
They're trying to yare them into silence

1444
01:07:43.760 --> 01:07:45.760
so that they can get their point across.

1445
01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:46.760
That's right. Yes.

1446
01:07:46.760 --> 01:07:47.760
And I've had to send messages in the past

1447
01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:48.760
and say, by the way,

1448
01:07:48.760 --> 01:07:49.760
you were saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1449
01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:51.760
It made it seem to an objective observer.

1450
01:07:51.760 --> 01:07:53.760
You weren't listening and actually you were just trying to say something

1451
01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:57.760
so just in the interest of you were like, you know, maybe...

1452
01:07:57.760 --> 01:07:58.760
Maybe don't.

1453
01:07:58.760 --> 01:07:59.760
Just don't say...

1454
01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:00.760
How do they respond to that feeling?

1455
01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:03.760
Well, because I constructed it more tactfully.

1456
01:08:03.760 --> 01:08:05.760
tactfully than I just described.

1457
01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:07.760
But I thought about it a lot and I just wanted to...

1458
01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:11.760
Because I'd seen them doing this 30, 40 times in these things.

1459
01:08:11.760 --> 01:08:12.760
Yeah.

1460
01:08:12.760 --> 01:08:15.760
And I don't think they realize how it's perceived.

1461
01:08:15.760 --> 01:08:18.760
Now you know how I feel during so many conversations

1462
01:08:18.760 --> 01:08:19.760
for so many different reasons.

1463
01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:22.760
There are so many things like that where you see other people

1464
01:08:22.760 --> 01:08:25.760
doing the dastardly conversational thing.

1465
01:08:25.760 --> 01:08:29.760
And it's totally understandable why.

1466
01:08:29.760 --> 01:08:30.760
They're excited.

1467
01:08:30.760 --> 01:08:32.760
They have a thing they want to say.

1468
01:08:32.760 --> 01:08:34.760
And it's preventing them from actually engaging

1469
01:08:34.760 --> 01:08:37.760
with the person who's talking and what they're saying.

1470
01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:39.760
All of these things are understandable.

1471
01:08:39.760 --> 01:08:43.760
It's important to come from a place of non-judgment.

1472
01:08:43.760 --> 01:08:46.760
It's because our brains were built to wander,

1473
01:08:46.760 --> 01:08:48.760
not focus on another person.

1474
01:08:48.760 --> 01:08:51.760
Because we're deeply egocentric beings

1475
01:08:51.760 --> 01:08:53.760
and we focus on our own perspective.

1476
01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:57.760
Both of those things hold us back from really being able to engage

1477
01:08:57.760 --> 01:08:58.760
with someone else.

1478
01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:01.760
I want to go back to your thing of like a 10 out of 10 like ability.

1479
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:04.760
Those are the little things,

1480
01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:07.760
the little desk by a thousand cuts to your like ability.

1481
01:09:07.760 --> 01:09:09.760
Are these things where it's like,

1482
01:09:09.760 --> 01:09:12.760
you're not able to actually really focus on someone else

1483
01:09:12.760 --> 01:09:14.760
and really engage with what they're saying.

1484
01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:16.760
And ask follow-up questions.

1485
01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:18.760
And then later in the conversation,

1486
01:09:18.760 --> 01:09:20.760
call back to something they said earlier

1487
01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:22.760
because you're just that clever.

1488
01:09:22.760 --> 01:09:26.760
There's so much sand in the way of doing that.

1489
01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:29.760
In that particular example I'm thinking about,

1490
01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:33.760
I started to get negative feedback

1491
01:09:33.760 --> 01:09:35.760
from people that worked with this person.

1492
01:09:35.760 --> 01:09:38.760
And I noticed one day the negative feedback was,

1493
01:09:38.760 --> 01:09:40.760
I don't think they're even listening to me.

1494
01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:42.760
Because they're not.

1495
01:09:42.760 --> 01:09:44.760
Because they weren't really listening.

1496
01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:46.760
And so the minute I got the feedback was the minute I thought,

1497
01:09:46.760 --> 01:09:48.760
Stephen, you've watched this happen.

1498
01:09:48.760 --> 01:09:50.760
You know it's objectively true.

1499
01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:52.760
You owe it because you're this person's report

1500
01:09:52.760 --> 01:09:54.760
to have a conversation with them about it

1501
01:09:54.760 --> 01:09:56.760
because it's getting in the way of their success.

1502
01:09:56.760 --> 01:09:59.760
The thing for me is if I plot everybody I know and work with

1503
01:09:59.760 --> 01:10:02.760
on an axis of self-awareness as a way to their communication,

1504
01:10:02.760 --> 01:10:06.760
some people are just, they kind of just got to have it.

1505
01:10:06.760 --> 01:10:10.760
And then some people are on the other end of this spectrum

1506
01:10:10.760 --> 01:10:13.760
where there's no apparent self-awareness

1507
01:10:13.760 --> 01:10:14.760
of how they're coming across.

1508
01:10:14.760 --> 01:10:17.760
And they're so talented and so hardworking

1509
01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:21.760
but this one thing of their communication self-awareness

1510
01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:23.760
is honestly, in some cases,

1511
01:10:23.760 --> 01:10:26.760
the single thing, the single gravitational force

1512
01:10:26.760 --> 01:10:27.760
on that career trajectory.

1513
01:10:27.760 --> 01:10:28.760
Yes.

1514
01:10:28.760 --> 01:10:29.760
And can people change?

1515
01:10:29.760 --> 01:10:31.760
Or is it just like a genetic thing?

1516
01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:32.760
They can.

1517
01:10:32.760 --> 01:10:35.760
First let me address, there are pros and cons

1518
01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:37.760
to being at both ends of that spectrum.

1519
01:10:37.760 --> 01:10:41.760
If you are too hyper-vigilant and too self-aware,

1520
01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:42.760
it can be distracting.

1521
01:10:42.760 --> 01:10:45.760
It might mean that you're sort of people pleasing too,

1522
01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:47.760
which can lead to burnout and exhaustion.

1523
01:10:47.760 --> 01:10:50.760
If you're at this lack of self-awareness end,

1524
01:10:50.760 --> 01:10:53.760
of course, it's going to be a real problem.

1525
01:10:53.760 --> 01:10:57.760
And so I love teaching and coaching people at that end

1526
01:10:57.760 --> 01:11:00.760
because you can become more self-aware.

1527
01:11:00.760 --> 01:11:03.760
So many of my students at Harvard come into the course

1528
01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:05.760
and that's how they are.

1529
01:11:05.760 --> 01:11:06.760
What do you mean?

1530
01:11:06.760 --> 01:11:10.760
They are not aware of what their strengths and weaknesses are.

1531
01:11:10.760 --> 01:11:12.760
They don't know what they're doing right and wrong.

1532
01:11:12.760 --> 01:11:15.760
They just know they either hate conversation

1533
01:11:15.760 --> 01:11:17.760
or aren't good at it.

1534
01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:20.760
And so just by going through this talk course,

1535
01:11:20.760 --> 01:11:23.760
they become much more sort of clear-eyed and open

1536
01:11:23.760 --> 01:11:26.760
to the fact that conversation is a skill

1537
01:11:26.760 --> 01:11:28.760
that matters profoundly,

1538
01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:30.760
not in a sort of soft skill fuzzy way,

1539
01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:33.760
but in a quantifiable way that impacts everything

1540
01:11:33.760 --> 01:11:35.760
that matters to them.

1541
01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:39.760
Like a bottom line almost is an economic value to them.

1542
01:11:39.760 --> 01:11:41.760
And so just having their eyes open to the fact

1543
01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:44.760
that this is a skill and a skill they need to get better at,

1544
01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:47.760
even if I don't see them getting massively better

1545
01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:49.760
in the course of three months,

1546
01:11:49.760 --> 01:11:51.760
it means that they are likely to get better at it

1547
01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:53.760
over the longer term because now they know.

1548
01:11:53.760 --> 01:11:56.760
Now they get it and now they know that they aren't great at it yet.

1549
01:11:56.760 --> 01:11:58.760
The world of business looks entirely different today

1550
01:11:58.760 --> 01:12:00.760
than it did 15 years ago.

1551
01:12:00.760 --> 01:12:02.760
Back then building a brand meant having huge budgets,

1552
01:12:02.760 --> 01:12:05.760
warehouses, office space, and lots and lots of stuff.

1553
01:12:05.760 --> 01:12:07.760
But now you can start a business with your laptop,

1554
01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:09.760
an idea, and the right tools.

1555
01:12:09.760 --> 01:12:11.760
And I would know more so than anybody else

1556
01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:12.760
because that's exactly what I did.

1557
01:12:12.760 --> 01:12:14.760
Shopify is one of our longstanding sponsors on this show,

1558
01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:16.760
and they're a brand I often refer people to

1559
01:12:16.760 --> 01:12:18.760
when they're starting their businesses

1560
01:12:18.760 --> 01:12:21.760
because it's a tool that contains many more tools within itself.

1561
01:12:21.760 --> 01:12:24.760
And when you're starting out, everything is everywhere.

1562
01:12:24.760 --> 01:12:25.760
It's messy and it's confusing,

1563
01:12:25.760 --> 01:12:28.760
so having everything in the same place is incredibly useful.

1564
01:12:28.760 --> 01:12:31.760
Shopify puts store design, payments, inventory, shipping,

1565
01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:33.760
and even AI tools all in one place.

1566
01:12:33.760 --> 01:12:35.760
And you can sell directly from your website

1567
01:12:35.760 --> 01:12:39.760
or on social media essentially wherever your customers spend their time.

1568
01:12:39.760 --> 01:12:41.760
It's truly a brilliant business tool.

1569
01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:45.760
So if you want to give it a go, head to Shopify.com slash Bartlett

1570
01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:48.760
and sign up for your $1 per month trial period

1571
01:12:48.760 --> 01:12:51.760
that Shopify.com slash Bartlett.

1572
01:12:52.760 --> 01:12:54.760
Are there anything else that, you know,

1573
01:12:54.760 --> 01:12:55.760
we talked about death by a thousand cuts

1574
01:12:55.760 --> 01:12:57.760
as it relates to being a 10 out of 10 conversation list

1575
01:12:57.760 --> 01:12:59.760
and like a likable person?

1576
01:12:59.760 --> 01:13:02.760
Are there any of these other small things that we do

1577
01:13:02.760 --> 01:13:05.760
which are harming us by tiny?

1578
01:13:05.760 --> 01:13:07.760
That most people don't know they're doing?

1579
01:13:07.760 --> 01:13:08.760
Yes, let's move to K.

1580
01:13:08.760 --> 01:13:10.760
I'm just moving along in this framework.

1581
01:13:10.760 --> 01:13:11.760
What's going on?

1582
01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:12.760
We're skipping out for now,

1583
01:13:12.760 --> 01:13:14.760
which we would never skip out forever.

1584
01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:16.760
K is for kindness.

1585
01:13:16.760 --> 01:13:21.760
Often we're all taught this virtue of kindness when we're children

1586
01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:24.760
and spend the rest of our lives sort of falling short

1587
01:13:24.760 --> 01:13:26.760
of actually doing it in practice.

1588
01:13:26.760 --> 01:13:30.760
I've ever been obsessed with this idea of what are like people

1589
01:13:30.760 --> 01:13:31.760
who are actually kind?

1590
01:13:31.760 --> 01:13:33.760
What are they thinking about?

1591
01:13:33.760 --> 01:13:35.760
And how are they interacting with other people?

1592
01:13:35.760 --> 01:13:36.760
What kinds of choices are they making?

1593
01:13:36.760 --> 01:13:38.760
How do they talk to other people?

1594
01:13:38.760 --> 01:13:40.760
And so when you say death by a thousand cuts,

1595
01:13:40.760 --> 01:13:43.760
there are these sort of mistakes that we make

1596
01:13:43.760 --> 01:13:45.760
in the respectfulness of our language

1597
01:13:45.760 --> 01:13:49.760
that undermine our actual kindness to other people.

1598
01:13:49.760 --> 01:13:50.760
Making sure you use someone's name,

1599
01:13:50.760 --> 01:13:52.760
you gave this example and the one out of 10

1600
01:13:52.760 --> 01:13:54.760
is like use the wrong name.

1601
01:13:54.760 --> 01:13:56.760
That is really meaningful.

1602
01:13:56.760 --> 01:13:57.760
You need to know people's names

1603
01:13:57.760 --> 01:13:58.760
and use them correctly.

1604
01:13:58.760 --> 01:14:00.760
And with appropriate formality, right?

1605
01:14:00.760 --> 01:14:02.760
Sometimes it's wonderful to say like,

1606
01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:03.760
hey, honey,

1607
01:14:03.760 --> 01:14:04.760
and sometimes you need to say,

1608
01:14:04.760 --> 01:14:07.760
it's nice to meet you, Dr. Brooks, right?

1609
01:14:07.760 --> 01:14:10.760
Like you need to be able to read that.

1610
01:14:10.760 --> 01:14:15.760
There is this paper where they studied conversations

1611
01:14:15.760 --> 01:14:18.760
between police officers and citizens in Oakland,

1612
01:14:18.760 --> 01:14:19.760
actually close to here,

1613
01:14:19.760 --> 01:14:21.760
in normal traffic stops.

1614
01:14:21.760 --> 01:14:23.760
So when police pulled over citizens

1615
01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:25.760
and walked up to the car and said,

1616
01:14:25.760 --> 01:14:26.760
you were speeding, you know,

1617
01:14:26.760 --> 01:14:28.760
and they used body cam footage

1618
01:14:28.760 --> 01:14:30.760
and got all the transcripts from these interactions

1619
01:14:30.760 --> 01:14:33.760
and then measured the respectfulness of the language

1620
01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:36.760
that the police officers were using.

1621
01:14:36.760 --> 01:14:38.760
There are some really, you know,

1622
01:14:38.760 --> 01:14:40.760
not surprising, but terrible findings

1623
01:14:40.760 --> 01:14:42.760
that police officers were using

1624
01:14:42.760 --> 01:14:44.760
less respectful language towards black citizens

1625
01:14:44.760 --> 01:14:46.760
compared to white citizens,

1626
01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:49.760
but sort of more broadly speaking,

1627
01:14:49.760 --> 01:14:51.760
the interactions where they were using

1628
01:14:51.760 --> 01:14:53.760
more respectful language went better.

1629
01:14:53.760 --> 01:14:54.760
There were less conflicts.

1630
01:14:54.760 --> 01:14:58.760
They drive away without further infractions.

1631
01:14:58.760 --> 01:15:01.760
So the tiny choices we make in our language

1632
01:15:01.760 --> 01:15:04.760
and the language of respect

1633
01:15:04.760 --> 01:15:08.760
varies along like hundreds of features of language

1634
01:15:08.760 --> 01:15:10.760
and it's a very gradient concept,

1635
01:15:10.760 --> 01:15:15.760
but they have a real impact on how these interactions go.

1636
01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:17.760
When we think about sort of like things like systemic

1637
01:15:17.760 --> 01:15:19.760
racial bias, that's,

1638
01:15:19.760 --> 01:15:21.760
it comes from that kind of stuff.

1639
01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:24.760
That's where it leaks out is in the language we use

1640
01:15:24.760 --> 01:15:25.760
with each other.

1641
01:15:25.760 --> 01:15:28.760
So we can all learn to use more respectful language.

1642
01:15:28.760 --> 01:15:34.760
Do you think much about how our emotional state

1643
01:15:34.760 --> 01:15:36.760
is impacting our ability to accomplish

1644
01:15:36.760 --> 01:15:37.760
any of these things?

1645
01:15:37.760 --> 01:15:38.760
Because I think, you know,

1646
01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:40.760
the days where I'm least likely to be kind

1647
01:15:40.760 --> 01:15:41.760
are the days where I haven't slept.

1648
01:15:41.760 --> 01:15:42.760
Yeah.

1649
01:15:42.760 --> 01:15:45.760
And I should probably be avoiding all conversations that day.

1650
01:15:45.760 --> 01:15:47.760
It's really, I think one of the biggest things

1651
01:15:47.760 --> 01:15:49.760
I've learned from all of this work is that

1652
01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:52.760
conversation is remarkably effortful

1653
01:15:52.760 --> 01:15:54.760
and it requires quite a bit of energy.

1654
01:15:54.760 --> 01:15:57.760
Even if you know how to be a good conversationalist,

1655
01:15:57.760 --> 01:16:00.760
often we don't have the energy to actually do it.

1656
01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:03.760
Oh, I don't have the energy to brainstorm topics.

1657
01:16:03.760 --> 01:16:06.760
I don't have the energy to continue asking follow-up questions.

1658
01:16:06.760 --> 01:16:08.760
I'm going to let my egocentrism take over

1659
01:16:08.760 --> 01:16:10.760
and boomer ask till the sun comes down.

1660
01:16:10.760 --> 01:16:11.760
Goes down.

1661
01:16:11.760 --> 01:16:12.760
Not boomers.

1662
01:16:12.760 --> 01:16:13.760
Not boomers.

1663
01:16:13.760 --> 01:16:18.760
I'm going to accidentally use disrespectful language

1664
01:16:18.760 --> 01:16:21.760
and not repair that, not correct it.

1665
01:16:21.760 --> 01:16:23.760
That's kind of what keeps me up at night

1666
01:16:23.760 --> 01:16:25.760
is that human beings do have limitations.

1667
01:16:25.760 --> 01:16:27.760
We are limited in time.

1668
01:16:27.760 --> 01:16:29.760
We're limited in energy.

1669
01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:31.760
Our brains are not super computers.

1670
01:16:31.760 --> 01:16:35.760
And so in practice, people who are great communicators

1671
01:16:35.760 --> 01:16:38.760
will often fall short of their own hopes

1672
01:16:38.760 --> 01:16:40.760
because they don't have the energy to do it.

1673
01:16:40.760 --> 01:16:42.760
I think Brunei Brown said to me that

1674
01:16:42.760 --> 01:16:44.760
when she comes home and she's out of energy,

1675
01:16:44.760 --> 01:16:45.760
she'll just say to her partner,

1676
01:16:45.760 --> 01:16:48.760
listen, I'm on 10% today so I can't deal with this now.

1677
01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:50.760
And what, talk about self-awareness.

1678
01:16:50.760 --> 01:16:52.760
Boy, if you can do that, if you can say

1679
01:16:52.760 --> 01:16:55.760
and you have sturdy enough relationships at work

1680
01:16:55.760 --> 01:16:56.760
and at home that you could say,

1681
01:16:56.760 --> 01:16:58.760
dude, I'm like a two out of ten,

1682
01:16:58.760 --> 01:17:00.760
you got to cut me a break today.

1683
01:17:00.760 --> 01:17:02.760
It would be tremendously helpful.

1684
01:17:02.760 --> 01:17:04.760
It requires quite a bit of self-awareness

1685
01:17:04.760 --> 01:17:07.760
to recognize that you're at a two out of ten

1686
01:17:07.760 --> 01:17:11.760
and a lot of grace from the people around you,

1687
01:17:11.760 --> 01:17:13.760
which means that you're going to have to give them grace

1688
01:17:13.760 --> 01:17:16.760
in response at some point.

1689
01:17:16.760 --> 01:17:19.760
That's what good relationships are.

1690
01:17:19.760 --> 01:17:20.760
And the L.

1691
01:17:20.760 --> 01:17:22.760
Shall we put them in the correct order?

1692
01:17:22.760 --> 01:17:23.760
Yeah.

1693
01:17:23.760 --> 01:17:24.760
The LK.

1694
01:17:24.760 --> 01:17:25.760
L is for levity.

1695
01:17:25.760 --> 01:17:28.760
So we've talked a bit about difficult conversations

1696
01:17:28.760 --> 01:17:30.760
and how they can so easily get overheated.

1697
01:17:30.760 --> 01:17:33.760
When you think about chats that go off the rails,

1698
01:17:33.760 --> 01:17:37.760
it's quite easy to think of hostile conflict,

1699
01:17:37.760 --> 01:17:38.760
difficult conversations,

1700
01:17:38.760 --> 01:17:41.760
because they're very salient, they're very memorable.

1701
01:17:41.760 --> 01:17:42.760
There's might be shouting,

1702
01:17:42.760 --> 01:17:45.760
there's going to be hurt feelings, defensiveness.

1703
01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:47.760
The more common enemy of conversation

1704
01:17:47.760 --> 01:17:50.760
is actually boredom and disengagement.

1705
01:17:50.760 --> 01:17:53.760
So yes, do we get annoyed with each other?

1706
01:17:53.760 --> 01:17:54.760
Absolutely.

1707
01:17:54.760 --> 01:17:57.760
But almost every conversation has stints

1708
01:17:57.760 --> 01:18:00.760
of disengagement where people aren't interested.

1709
01:18:00.760 --> 01:18:04.760
And so levity is humor and warmth

1710
01:18:04.760 --> 01:18:08.760
to help us avoid disinterest and boredom.

1711
01:18:08.760 --> 01:18:11.760
And levity is important for happiness

1712
01:18:11.760 --> 01:18:13.760
and engagement sake itself.

1713
01:18:13.760 --> 01:18:16.760
It matters that we're enjoying our time together.

1714
01:18:16.760 --> 01:18:19.760
But maybe even more profoundly,

1715
01:18:19.760 --> 01:18:22.760
if we are not leaning towards each other

1716
01:18:22.760 --> 01:18:24.760
and interested in what the other person is saying,

1717
01:18:24.760 --> 01:18:26.760
we can't achieve any of our other goals.

1718
01:18:26.760 --> 01:18:29.760
Good conversation requires mutual engagement.

1719
01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:31.760
So if I'm bored and my mind is wandering,

1720
01:18:31.760 --> 01:18:32.760
which happens a lot,

1721
01:18:32.760 --> 01:18:34.760
because I have attentional issues.

1722
01:18:34.760 --> 01:18:36.760
It happens to a lot of people a lot.

1723
01:18:36.760 --> 01:18:41.760
The human mind wanders 25% of the time during conversation.

1724
01:18:41.760 --> 01:18:44.760
So it's quite common.

1725
01:18:44.760 --> 01:18:45.760
If your mind is wandering

1726
01:18:45.760 --> 01:18:47.760
and you're not engaged with each other,

1727
01:18:47.760 --> 01:18:48.760
then you can't do anything else.

1728
01:18:48.760 --> 01:18:49.760
Either persuasion,

1729
01:18:49.760 --> 01:18:50.760
making decisions together,

1730
01:18:50.760 --> 01:18:52.760
brainstorming, connecting,

1731
01:18:52.760 --> 01:18:53.760
none of it.

1732
01:18:53.760 --> 01:18:55.760
So the L is very important

1733
01:18:55.760 --> 01:18:57.760
because it makes things fun and enjoyable.

1734
01:18:57.760 --> 01:18:58.760
But it's also important

1735
01:18:58.760 --> 01:19:00.760
because we need to stay here with each other

1736
01:19:00.760 --> 01:19:02.760
and not disengage.

1737
01:19:02.760 --> 01:19:05.760
What if you're not a warm person?

1738
01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:07.760
It's so much.

1739
01:19:07.760 --> 01:19:09.760
I've been accused of embarrassing.

1740
01:19:09.760 --> 01:19:11.760
Yeah, people say to me,

1741
01:19:11.760 --> 01:19:12.760
people say to me a lot,

1742
01:19:12.760 --> 01:19:13.760
like you're very serious.

1743
01:19:13.760 --> 01:19:14.760
I'm like, ready?

1744
01:19:14.760 --> 01:19:16.760
I think I come across this serious sometimes.

1745
01:19:16.760 --> 01:19:18.760
I think you may come across as serious.

1746
01:19:18.760 --> 01:19:21.760
I think, but you do come across as very warm.

1747
01:19:21.760 --> 01:19:23.760
And so that's an important distinction.

1748
01:19:23.760 --> 01:19:24.760
You're using flattery.

1749
01:19:24.760 --> 01:19:25.760
I've seen that when you're complex.

1750
01:19:25.760 --> 01:19:26.760
I'm not.

1751
01:19:26.760 --> 01:19:27.760
I'm giving, I'm giving very direct feedback.

1752
01:19:27.760 --> 01:19:28.760
Got your compass here.

1753
01:19:28.760 --> 01:19:29.760
It's flattering.

1754
01:19:29.760 --> 01:19:30.760
Flattery.

1755
01:19:30.760 --> 01:19:31.760
High relational.

1756
01:19:31.760 --> 01:19:33.760
I'm onto you.

1757
01:19:33.760 --> 01:19:35.760
So there's levity as two parts.

1758
01:19:35.760 --> 01:19:37.760
It's humor and warmth.

1759
01:19:37.760 --> 01:19:39.760
And I always start this part of my class

1760
01:19:39.760 --> 01:19:41.760
that Harvard by saying to my students,

1761
01:19:41.760 --> 01:19:43.760
if you're not funny,

1762
01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:45.760
and you think you never will be,

1763
01:19:45.760 --> 01:19:47.760
it's okay.

1764
01:19:47.760 --> 01:19:49.760
Because I don't think I'm going to be the one

1765
01:19:49.760 --> 01:19:51.760
to make you funny within the span of two months.

1766
01:19:51.760 --> 01:19:53.760
If you are a deeply serious,

1767
01:19:53.760 --> 01:19:55.760
unfunny person,

1768
01:19:55.760 --> 01:19:57.760
other people believe that you can get funny

1769
01:19:57.760 --> 01:19:59.760
or over time we can talk about that in a moment.

1770
01:19:59.760 --> 01:20:04.760
What I do deeply believe is that anyone can be more warm.

1771
01:20:04.760 --> 01:20:06.760
And so warmth moves include anything,

1772
01:20:06.760 --> 01:20:07.760
expressing gratitude.

1773
01:20:07.760 --> 01:20:09.760
I'm so grateful for your time today.

1774
01:20:09.760 --> 01:20:12.760
I'm so grateful for you engaging with the content of my work.

1775
01:20:12.760 --> 01:20:13.760
Flattery.

1776
01:20:13.760 --> 01:20:15.760
Giving compliments.

1777
01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:16.760
Just shifting topics.

1778
01:20:16.760 --> 01:20:18.760
So if you can get better at sensing

1779
01:20:18.760 --> 01:20:20.760
when people are getting bored with a topic

1780
01:20:20.760 --> 01:20:21.760
and getting more courageous

1781
01:20:21.760 --> 01:20:23.760
and assertive about switching more frequently,

1782
01:20:23.760 --> 01:20:25.760
it can be very, very helpful

1783
01:20:25.760 --> 01:20:28.760
for keeping the conversation sort of bubbling along.

1784
01:20:28.760 --> 01:20:30.760
Callbacks.

1785
01:20:30.760 --> 01:20:33.760
Callbacks are any reference back to something

1786
01:20:33.760 --> 01:20:35.760
that you've talked about previously.

1787
01:20:35.760 --> 01:20:38.760
They're total magic.

1788
01:20:39.760 --> 01:20:42.760
It shows that you were listening to someone earlier

1789
01:20:42.760 --> 01:20:43.760
in the conversation,

1790
01:20:43.760 --> 01:20:45.760
maybe even earlier in your relationship,

1791
01:20:45.760 --> 01:20:46.760
like a month ago,

1792
01:20:46.760 --> 01:20:49.760
if I can call back to something we talked about,

1793
01:20:49.760 --> 01:20:51.760
it shows I heard you,

1794
01:20:51.760 --> 01:20:53.760
I was thinking about what you said.

1795
01:20:53.760 --> 01:20:55.760
I was able to retain it in my mind,

1796
01:20:55.760 --> 01:20:59.760
and I'm clever enough to reference back to it now.

1797
01:20:59.760 --> 01:21:02.760
And often it has this really amazing quality

1798
01:21:02.760 --> 01:21:04.760
where if I bring it up again,

1799
01:21:04.760 --> 01:21:05.760
it's funny because you're like,

1800
01:21:05.760 --> 01:21:08.760
oh, shit, that's super clever.

1801
01:21:08.760 --> 01:21:10.760
Often a lot of people ask me,

1802
01:21:10.760 --> 01:21:12.760
how do we end conversations well?

1803
01:21:12.760 --> 01:21:14.760
And I have two pieces of advice there.

1804
01:21:14.760 --> 01:21:16.760
I'm going to bring this back to callbacks.

1805
01:21:16.760 --> 01:21:19.760
One is nobody knows when to end conversations.

1806
01:21:19.760 --> 01:21:21.760
It's the final topic switch.

1807
01:21:21.760 --> 01:21:22.760
It's the final coordination choice.

1808
01:21:22.760 --> 01:21:23.760
There's no way to know,

1809
01:21:23.760 --> 01:21:25.760
there is no right answer.

1810
01:21:25.760 --> 01:21:27.760
So it's better to just end it.

1811
01:21:27.760 --> 01:21:28.760
Like be assertive.

1812
01:21:28.760 --> 01:21:29.760
Walk away,

1813
01:21:29.760 --> 01:21:30.760
rather than hemming and hawing

1814
01:21:30.760 --> 01:21:32.760
and feeling bad and embarrassed about it.

1815
01:21:32.760 --> 01:21:34.760
The second piece of advice

1816
01:21:34.760 --> 01:21:36.760
is that it's a great time to try a callback.

1817
01:21:36.760 --> 01:21:38.760
The very last beat of the conversation,

1818
01:21:38.760 --> 01:21:39.760
you can say,

1819
01:21:39.760 --> 01:21:41.760
and I hope you have a great time

1820
01:21:41.760 --> 01:21:43.760
with your girlfriend this weekend, right?

1821
01:21:43.760 --> 01:21:45.760
Like whatever they had mentioned,

1822
01:21:45.760 --> 01:21:46.760
now I'm going to go,

1823
01:21:46.760 --> 01:21:47.760
we're going to go to see this movie.

1824
01:21:47.760 --> 01:21:49.760
I hope you have a great time at the movie this weekend,

1825
01:21:49.760 --> 01:21:50.760
right?

1826
01:21:50.760 --> 01:21:51.760
Showing that like,

1827
01:21:51.760 --> 01:21:52.760
oh, I heard you 30 minutes ago

1828
01:21:52.760 --> 01:21:53.760
and you told me this thing

1829
01:21:53.760 --> 01:21:56.760
that can help to smooth the exit ramp away.

1830
01:21:56.760 --> 01:21:58.760
I find it really useful to give people

1831
01:21:58.760 --> 01:22:00.760
my email address to end a conversation.

1832
01:22:00.760 --> 01:22:02.760
That's so interesting.

1833
01:22:02.760 --> 01:22:04.760
It just ends the conversation immediately.

1834
01:22:04.760 --> 01:22:05.760
Yeah.

1835
01:22:05.760 --> 01:22:06.760
Someone will come up to me and say,

1836
01:22:06.760 --> 01:22:07.760
hey, I've got this business idea on a pitch

1837
01:22:07.760 --> 01:22:09.760
and then I'll start pitching.

1838
01:22:09.760 --> 01:22:10.760
And if I could do not send me,

1839
01:22:10.760 --> 01:22:11.760
here's my email,

1840
01:22:11.760 --> 01:22:12.760
and I shake the hand,

1841
01:22:12.760 --> 01:22:13.760
the conversation ends immediately.

1842
01:22:13.760 --> 01:22:16.760
Do you feel it is dismissive?

1843
01:22:16.760 --> 01:22:17.760
Maybe,

1844
01:22:17.760 --> 01:22:19.760
however,

1845
01:22:19.760 --> 01:22:20.760
in the context of like,

1846
01:22:20.760 --> 01:22:21.760
being in the gym.

1847
01:22:21.760 --> 01:22:22.760
Yeah.

1848
01:22:22.760 --> 01:22:23.760
And I'm like, mid-set.

1849
01:22:23.760 --> 01:22:24.760
Yeah, that's fair.

1850
01:22:24.760 --> 01:22:25.760
And someone comes over and says,

1851
01:22:25.760 --> 01:22:26.760
oh, here's my email.

1852
01:22:26.760 --> 01:22:27.760
If you want to,

1853
01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:29.760
it seems to end the conversation.

1854
01:22:29.760 --> 01:22:30.760
And it feels to be,

1855
01:22:31.760 --> 01:22:33.760
like, please help me here.

1856
01:22:33.760 --> 01:22:35.760
What would be a better way to...

1857
01:22:35.760 --> 01:22:36.760
I know.

1858
01:22:36.760 --> 01:22:37.760
I think that's quite good,

1859
01:22:37.760 --> 01:22:39.760
because it could be perceived as a little dismissive,

1860
01:22:39.760 --> 01:22:41.760
but that person in the gym is going to be like,

1861
01:22:41.760 --> 01:22:43.760
yeah, I probably doesn't want to talk about my business

1862
01:22:43.760 --> 01:22:45.760
while he's, you know, lifting.

1863
01:22:45.760 --> 01:22:47.760
And you're opening the door to them,

1864
01:22:47.760 --> 01:22:48.760
saying,

1865
01:22:48.760 --> 01:22:51.760
I really would love to receive an email from you.

1866
01:22:51.760 --> 01:22:52.760
It is my real email.

1867
01:22:52.760 --> 01:22:53.760
It's what I'm not giving out a fake comment.

1868
01:22:53.760 --> 01:22:54.760
Yeah, exactly.

1869
01:22:54.760 --> 01:22:55.760
Yeah, you should feel like a jerk

1870
01:22:55.760 --> 01:22:58.760
if you were giving out a fake comment.

1871
01:22:58.760 --> 01:23:00.760
Yeah, exactly.

1872
01:23:00.760 --> 01:23:01.760
Depending on your tolerance,

1873
01:23:01.760 --> 01:23:03.760
I also don't...

1874
01:23:03.760 --> 01:23:05.760
I think most people wouldn't be excited about

1875
01:23:05.760 --> 01:23:06.760
having a deep conversation

1876
01:23:06.760 --> 01:23:08.760
with a stranger at the gym.

1877
01:23:08.760 --> 01:23:11.760
And I think giving yourself grace for that

1878
01:23:11.760 --> 01:23:13.760
is also helpful.

1879
01:23:13.760 --> 01:23:15.760
Like, it doesn't make you a bad person.

1880
01:23:15.760 --> 01:23:17.760
I think of an important thing that we take from the book

1881
01:23:17.760 --> 01:23:19.760
in this course is, like,

1882
01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:22.760
talking more is not always the answer.

1883
01:23:22.760 --> 01:23:23.760
Often it's not.

1884
01:23:23.760 --> 01:23:25.760
Often it's important.

1885
01:23:25.760 --> 01:23:28.760
It's these low informational goals, right?

1886
01:23:28.760 --> 01:23:30.760
Like protecting your time,

1887
01:23:30.760 --> 01:23:32.760
protecting your mental health.

1888
01:23:32.760 --> 01:23:34.760
Some people, most people are under social.

1889
01:23:34.760 --> 01:23:36.760
Loneliness is a real problem.

1890
01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:38.760
They don't have enough friends.

1891
01:23:38.760 --> 01:23:40.760
They're not connected enough.

1892
01:23:40.760 --> 01:23:42.760
But some people probably are over-connected.

1893
01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:44.760
And your social portfolio is too large

1894
01:23:44.760 --> 01:23:45.760
and there's too many people

1895
01:23:45.760 --> 01:23:47.760
who need too many things from you.

1896
01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:48.760
And so thinking carefully about

1897
01:23:48.760 --> 01:23:50.760
what are your strategies to sort of

1898
01:23:50.760 --> 01:23:53.760
stave off over-conversation

1899
01:23:53.760 --> 01:23:55.760
is quite worthwhile.

1900
01:23:55.760 --> 01:23:56.760
And it's this introvert,

1901
01:23:56.760 --> 01:23:58.760
ambiver extravert stuff real.

1902
01:23:58.760 --> 01:23:59.760
That's a great question.

1903
01:23:59.760 --> 01:24:01.760
People have preferences about

1904
01:24:01.760 --> 01:24:04.760
what makes them feel connected to other people.

1905
01:24:04.760 --> 01:24:07.760
Some people would love to go to that party

1906
01:24:07.760 --> 01:24:08.760
with 100 famous people.

1907
01:24:08.760 --> 01:24:10.760
Tell me about Zora in my team said

1908
01:24:10.760 --> 01:24:12.760
that the thing she wants to do on a Friday

1909
01:24:12.760 --> 01:24:14.760
after really, really, really, really, really busy week

1910
01:24:14.760 --> 01:24:16.760
is she wants to go to a busy coffee shop

1911
01:24:16.760 --> 01:24:18.760
and be around loads of people.

1912
01:24:18.760 --> 01:24:19.760
And I was like,

1913
01:24:19.760 --> 01:24:20.760
she charges me.

1914
01:24:20.760 --> 01:24:21.760
I'm like, what are you?

1915
01:24:21.760 --> 01:24:22.760
Like psychopath.

1916
01:24:22.760 --> 01:24:23.760
And then there's me who,

1917
01:24:23.760 --> 01:24:24.760
after the same week,

1918
01:24:24.760 --> 01:24:29.760
all I want to do is be in a dark cold room on my own.

1919
01:24:29.760 --> 01:24:30.760
Yep, totally.

1920
01:24:30.760 --> 01:24:33.760
And both of those are fair and fine.

1921
01:24:33.760 --> 01:24:36.760
And knowing that about yourself is really helpful.

1922
01:24:36.760 --> 01:24:38.760
I don't know is that relates to introversion

1923
01:24:38.760 --> 01:24:40.760
and extroversion as much as like

1924
01:24:40.760 --> 01:24:43.760
where are your preferences for conversation?

1925
01:24:43.760 --> 01:24:45.760
It's both about how frequently

1926
01:24:45.760 --> 01:24:46.760
who do you want to be interacting with

1927
01:24:46.760 --> 01:24:48.760
and what topics are exciting.

1928
01:24:48.760 --> 01:24:49.760
Is she going to that coffee shop

1929
01:24:49.760 --> 01:24:50.760
and talking about work still?

1930
01:24:50.760 --> 01:24:51.760
Or is she like, no,

1931
01:24:51.760 --> 01:24:53.760
I can't wait to talk about this weird other stuff

1932
01:24:53.760 --> 01:24:55.760
to try and get work off my mind?

1933
01:24:55.760 --> 01:24:57.760
But there's those people though in society.

1934
01:24:57.760 --> 01:24:58.760
We all know them.

1935
01:24:58.760 --> 01:24:59.760
But around people,

1936
01:24:59.760 --> 01:25:01.760
they just become like a social butterfly.

1937
01:25:01.760 --> 01:25:02.760
Yeah.

1938
01:25:02.760 --> 01:25:03.760
They're like talk loads.

1939
01:25:03.760 --> 01:25:04.760
They're really engaged.

1940
01:25:04.760 --> 01:25:05.760
They're energized by it.

1941
01:25:05.760 --> 01:25:06.760
Sure.

1942
01:25:06.760 --> 01:25:07.760
And then there's us lot

1943
01:25:07.760 --> 01:25:10.760
who are just drained by that stuff.

1944
01:25:10.760 --> 01:25:11.760
And I look at these people and go,

1945
01:25:11.760 --> 01:25:12.760
I'm almost jealous of them.

1946
01:25:12.760 --> 01:25:13.760
I go, I don't know how you do that.

1947
01:25:13.760 --> 01:25:15.760
Sometimes, for sure,

1948
01:25:15.760 --> 01:25:17.760
whether you, when you get excited

1949
01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:18.760
around lots of people

1950
01:25:18.760 --> 01:25:20.760
can be a huge advantage

1951
01:25:20.760 --> 01:25:23.760
because we need to do that sometimes.

1952
01:25:23.760 --> 01:25:24.760
I actually think possibly

1953
01:25:24.760 --> 01:25:26.760
a better indicator of introversion

1954
01:25:26.760 --> 01:25:28.760
might be if you went into a party

1955
01:25:28.760 --> 01:25:30.760
or you were in a group conversation

1956
01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:31.760
and it was super awkward.

1957
01:25:31.760 --> 01:25:33.760
Nobody's talking.

1958
01:25:33.760 --> 01:25:37.760
Do you feel like it's your job to fix it?

1959
01:25:37.760 --> 01:25:39.760
Extroverts would be like,

1960
01:25:39.760 --> 01:25:42.760
that's my number one job in life.

1961
01:25:43.760 --> 01:25:45.760
I am the one, don't worry, I'm here.

1962
01:25:45.760 --> 01:25:47.760
I'm here to save the awkwardness.

1963
01:25:47.760 --> 01:25:49.760
Introverts are often like,

1964
01:25:49.760 --> 01:25:50.760
I'm going to go

1965
01:25:50.760 --> 01:25:52.760
loiter by the guacamole.

1966
01:25:52.760 --> 01:25:53.760
This is not my problem

1967
01:25:53.760 --> 01:25:55.760
and I don't want no part of it.

1968
01:25:55.760 --> 01:25:56.760
Yeah.

1969
01:25:56.760 --> 01:25:57.760
So sometimes it's not even about

1970
01:25:57.760 --> 01:25:58.760
the number of people that are around

1971
01:25:58.760 --> 01:26:01.760
but how you're managing conversation.

1972
01:26:01.760 --> 01:26:03.760
I just put a new quiz on my website

1973
01:26:03.760 --> 01:26:04.760
that helps people figure out

1974
01:26:04.760 --> 01:26:05.760
what are your preferences?

1975
01:26:05.760 --> 01:26:07.760
What are your natural habits

1976
01:26:07.760 --> 01:26:09.760
in tricky situations like that?

1977
01:26:09.760 --> 01:26:12.760
And it gives you a sort of type type.

1978
01:26:12.760 --> 01:26:13.760
What type are you?

1979
01:26:13.760 --> 01:26:15.760
Do you tend to sort of be avoidant?

1980
01:26:15.760 --> 01:26:16.760
Do you tend to approach

1981
01:26:16.760 --> 01:26:17.760
and try and fix things

1982
01:26:17.760 --> 01:26:19.760
and then strategies to use?

1983
01:26:19.760 --> 01:26:20.760
And what you see

1984
01:26:20.760 --> 01:26:21.760
in terms of percentages there

1985
01:26:21.760 --> 01:26:22.760
and different things?

1986
01:26:22.760 --> 01:26:23.760
We're going to find out it's new.

1987
01:26:23.760 --> 01:26:24.760
It's new.

1988
01:26:24.760 --> 01:26:25.760
Yeah, yeah, we're just launching it.

1989
01:26:25.760 --> 01:26:26.760
So I'm going to find out.

1990
01:26:26.760 --> 01:26:27.760
And does it have classifications

1991
01:26:27.760 --> 01:26:28.760
in terms of like,

1992
01:26:28.760 --> 01:26:29.760
how many classifications?

1993
01:26:29.760 --> 01:26:31.760
Yeah, so it's only three types

1994
01:26:31.760 --> 01:26:33.760
that you could be with this quiz.

1995
01:26:33.760 --> 01:26:35.760
And then sort of like strategies

1996
01:26:35.760 --> 01:26:36.760
that whatever your type is,

1997
01:26:36.760 --> 01:26:37.760
this is going to help you

1998
01:26:37.760 --> 01:26:40.760
in terms of topics asking levity and kindness.

1999
01:26:40.760 --> 01:26:43.760
And what are the three categories one could be?

2000
01:26:43.760 --> 01:26:46.760
So one person could be sort of an approach person

2001
01:26:46.760 --> 01:26:47.760
who's like,

2002
01:26:47.760 --> 01:26:48.760
and I guess probably correlated

2003
01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:50.760
with extraversion, we'll find out.

2004
01:26:50.760 --> 01:26:52.760
If it's awkward and quiet,

2005
01:26:52.760 --> 01:26:54.760
you're the one that wants to jump in and fix it.

2006
01:26:54.760 --> 01:26:56.760
There are pros and cons to this too.

2007
01:26:56.760 --> 01:26:58.760
If you jump in and

2008
01:26:58.760 --> 01:27:01.760
you might say things and do things

2009
01:27:01.760 --> 01:27:03.760
that you don't actually aren't very proud of.

2010
01:27:03.760 --> 01:27:04.760
And might lower your value.

2011
01:27:04.760 --> 01:27:05.760
Correct.

2012
01:27:05.760 --> 01:27:06.760
Yeah.

2013
01:27:06.760 --> 01:27:07.760
There are avoiders who are like,

2014
01:27:07.760 --> 01:27:08.760
no, thank you.

2015
01:27:08.760 --> 01:27:09.760
I'm just going to,

2016
01:27:09.760 --> 01:27:10.760
I'm going to stay here,

2017
01:27:10.760 --> 01:27:11.760
but I'm going to not say anything.

2018
01:27:11.760 --> 01:27:12.760
And then there are people

2019
01:27:12.760 --> 01:27:13.760
who are like, I'm out of here

2020
01:27:13.760 --> 01:27:14.760
in this party sucks, right?

2021
01:27:14.760 --> 01:27:15.760
Like, they're the exit,

2022
01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:16.760
the exit people.

2023
01:27:16.760 --> 01:27:17.760
I feel attacked.

2024
01:27:17.760 --> 01:27:19.760
No, but I, you know,

2025
01:27:19.760 --> 01:27:21.760
it's interesting because

2026
01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:23.760
is it true that some people

2027
01:27:23.760 --> 01:27:26.760
who overtalk are less respected?

2028
01:27:26.760 --> 01:27:27.760
Can you overtalk?

2029
01:27:27.760 --> 01:27:28.760
I had this,

2030
01:27:28.760 --> 01:27:30.760
this thought many years ago,

2031
01:27:30.760 --> 01:27:31.760
based on again,

2032
01:27:31.760 --> 01:27:32.760
observations I'd seen in boardrooms

2033
01:27:32.760 --> 01:27:33.760
that I'd been in.

2034
01:27:33.760 --> 01:27:35.760
And I'd see 12 of my team members

2035
01:27:35.760 --> 01:27:38.760
in a boardroom trying to come to an idea

2036
01:27:38.760 --> 01:27:39.760
for a campaign we were doing.

2037
01:27:39.760 --> 01:27:40.760
Yeah.

2038
01:27:40.760 --> 01:27:42.760
And I noticed that one particular person

2039
01:27:42.760 --> 01:27:43.760
who I shot named,

2040
01:27:43.760 --> 01:27:45.760
many years ago in our New York office,

2041
01:27:45.760 --> 01:27:47.760
would talk so much,

2042
01:27:47.760 --> 01:27:49.760
and I would say too much,

2043
01:27:49.760 --> 01:27:52.760
to the extent that the next time they spoke,

2044
01:27:52.760 --> 01:27:54.760
I could see everybody in the room

2045
01:27:54.760 --> 01:27:55.760
not paying attention

2046
01:27:55.760 --> 01:27:57.760
in discounting it before it had come.

2047
01:27:57.760 --> 01:27:58.760
So I came up with this idea.

2048
01:27:58.760 --> 01:28:00.760
I was like, I think we all have a contribution score.

2049
01:28:00.760 --> 01:28:01.760
Yeah.

2050
01:28:01.760 --> 01:28:02.760
Like a credit score.

2051
01:28:02.760 --> 01:28:03.760
Love that.

2052
01:28:03.760 --> 01:28:05.760
I noticed on how thoughtful

2053
01:28:05.760 --> 01:28:09.760
and valuable our previous contributions have been.

2054
01:28:09.760 --> 01:28:10.760
Yeah.

2055
01:28:10.760 --> 01:28:12.760
And what I would see is with this particular person,

2056
01:28:12.760 --> 01:28:13.760
I should call her Katie.

2057
01:28:13.760 --> 01:28:15.760
The minute she spoke,

2058
01:28:15.760 --> 01:28:16.760
halfway through her first sentence,

2059
01:28:16.760 --> 01:28:18.760
I could see the person sat next to her,

2060
01:28:18.760 --> 01:28:20.760
basically just pre-rebuttling it.

2061
01:28:20.760 --> 01:28:21.760
Yeah.

2062
01:28:21.760 --> 01:28:22.760
Like pre-dismissing it.

2063
01:28:22.760 --> 01:28:23.760
Yeah.

2064
01:28:23.760 --> 01:28:24.760
And then on the contrary,

2065
01:28:24.760 --> 01:28:25.760
there's another particular person in our,

2066
01:28:25.760 --> 01:28:27.760
in our Manchester office back in the day,

2067
01:28:27.760 --> 01:28:28.760
who spoke so little,

2068
01:28:28.760 --> 01:28:30.760
that the minute they spoke,

2069
01:28:30.760 --> 01:28:32.760
it was like the room fell silent

2070
01:28:32.760 --> 01:28:34.760
and we all just swung our heads over to them.

2071
01:28:34.760 --> 01:28:35.760
Because we were like,

2072
01:28:35.760 --> 01:28:36.760
here comes a really good take.

2073
01:28:36.760 --> 01:28:38.760
So I thought everybody has a contribution score.

2074
01:28:38.760 --> 01:28:39.760
Protectures.

2075
01:28:39.760 --> 01:28:40.760
Yes.

2076
01:28:40.760 --> 01:28:42.760
So group conversation is incredibly complicated.

2077
01:28:42.760 --> 01:28:45.760
And one of the most difficult things is so obvious

2078
01:28:45.760 --> 01:28:47.760
is just how do we share airtime?

2079
01:28:47.760 --> 01:28:49.760
There are always going to be people

2080
01:28:49.760 --> 01:28:52.760
who have high power tend to take up more airtime,

2081
01:28:52.760 --> 01:28:53.760
just naturally.

2082
01:28:53.760 --> 01:28:55.760
It's something that high power people need to fight against

2083
01:28:55.760 --> 01:28:57.760
because it's not productive.

2084
01:28:57.760 --> 01:28:59.760
And it makes lower power people feel

2085
01:28:59.760 --> 01:29:01.760
like they're not welcome to join.

2086
01:29:01.760 --> 01:29:03.760
But then if you just look at airtime balance,

2087
01:29:03.760 --> 01:29:05.760
the person who's dominating the airtime,

2088
01:29:05.760 --> 01:29:06.760
that is not productive.

2089
01:29:06.760 --> 01:29:07.760
Right?

2090
01:29:07.760 --> 01:29:10.760
Like, especially if they're not the expert.

2091
01:29:10.760 --> 01:29:11.760
Okay?

2092
01:29:11.760 --> 01:29:12.760
That's where things get problematic.

2093
01:29:12.760 --> 01:29:13.760
You can imagine a balance where,

2094
01:29:13.760 --> 01:29:15.760
okay, there might be a group where

2095
01:29:15.760 --> 01:29:17.760
we are all dying to hear.

2096
01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:19.760
We need to talk about aerospace engineering

2097
01:29:19.760 --> 01:29:21.760
and only one out of the 10 of us

2098
01:29:21.760 --> 01:29:22.760
is an aerospace engineer.

2099
01:29:22.760 --> 01:29:25.760
I want to hear that guy talk for 45 minutes.

2100
01:29:25.760 --> 01:29:29.760
And I want to learn everything I possibly can in that time.

2101
01:29:30.760 --> 01:29:32.760
It becomes problematic when the person

2102
01:29:32.760 --> 01:29:35.760
dominating the airtime is not the sole expert

2103
01:29:35.760 --> 01:29:38.760
or maybe not an expert at all.

2104
01:29:38.760 --> 01:29:40.760
There's another piece to this.

2105
01:29:40.760 --> 01:29:42.760
And I love your idea of a contribution score.

2106
01:29:42.760 --> 01:29:44.760
Where talking is not the only way

2107
01:29:44.760 --> 01:29:46.760
to add value to a group.

2108
01:29:46.760 --> 01:29:49.760
There are so many roles that people play.

2109
01:29:49.760 --> 01:29:50.760
There are time keepers.

2110
01:29:50.760 --> 01:29:52.760
There's someone who's writing on the board

2111
01:29:52.760 --> 01:29:53.760
at the same time.

2112
01:29:53.760 --> 01:29:54.760
Often the person holding the pen

2113
01:29:54.760 --> 01:29:56.760
ends up being the most powerful person

2114
01:29:56.760 --> 01:29:58.760
because they're making diagrams and taking notes.

2115
01:29:58.760 --> 01:30:01.760
And they decide what is worthy of being up on the board.

2116
01:30:01.760 --> 01:30:03.760
There are people who keep the agenda.

2117
01:30:03.760 --> 01:30:05.760
So we're saying, okay, here are the topics

2118
01:30:05.760 --> 01:30:06.760
we want to talk about here.

2119
01:30:06.760 --> 01:30:08.760
The goals we came in with.

2120
01:30:08.760 --> 01:30:09.760
We want to make this decision.

2121
01:30:09.760 --> 01:30:11.760
I'd like to note that we haven't moved to the pasture

2122
01:30:11.760 --> 01:30:13.760
where we're going to make the decision.

2123
01:30:13.760 --> 01:30:14.760
Right?

2124
01:30:14.760 --> 01:30:16.760
The person who is sort of facilitating

2125
01:30:16.760 --> 01:30:20.760
the meeting becomes very valuable.

2126
01:30:20.760 --> 01:30:21.760
So there's all kinds of,

2127
01:30:21.760 --> 01:30:22.760
so there's goals.

2128
01:30:22.760 --> 01:30:24.760
There's roles in a group.

2129
01:30:24.760 --> 01:30:26.760
And then there's the soul,

2130
01:30:26.760 --> 01:30:27.760
the warmth of it all.

2131
01:30:27.760 --> 01:30:29.760
The other thing in line with that

2132
01:30:29.760 --> 01:30:30.760
that I've noticed from people

2133
01:30:30.760 --> 01:30:33.760
with a low contribution score in businesses

2134
01:30:33.760 --> 01:30:36.760
that I've put whatever is their bad switches.

2135
01:30:36.760 --> 01:30:39.760
And it appears to be linked.

2136
01:30:39.760 --> 01:30:41.760
What I mean by a bad switcher is

2137
01:30:41.760 --> 01:30:43.760
the group will be talking about.

2138
01:30:43.760 --> 01:30:44.760
I see.

2139
01:30:44.760 --> 01:30:45.760
Yes, yes, yes.

2140
01:30:45.760 --> 01:30:47.760
They're unwilling to go where the group wants to go.

2141
01:30:47.760 --> 01:30:49.760
They keep coming back to their thing

2142
01:30:49.760 --> 01:30:51.760
or they're like it.

2143
01:30:51.760 --> 01:30:53.760
Yeah, or something completely unrelated.

2144
01:30:53.760 --> 01:30:55.760
As if they just needed to say something.

2145
01:30:55.760 --> 01:30:56.760
Yeah.

2146
01:30:56.760 --> 01:30:59.760
And it just veers the group off the subject.

2147
01:30:59.760 --> 01:31:00.760
So the group are talking about,

2148
01:31:00.760 --> 01:31:02.760
let's just say we're talking about

2149
01:31:02.760 --> 01:31:04.760
a campaign we're doing for Starbucks.

2150
01:31:04.760 --> 01:31:05.760
And we're saying,

2151
01:31:05.760 --> 01:31:08.760
do you think we should do an event in Manhattan?

2152
01:31:08.760 --> 01:31:11.760
And because it almost seems like they can't not talk.

2153
01:31:11.760 --> 01:31:12.760
They'll say,

2154
01:31:12.760 --> 01:31:16.760
I went on holiday to Manhattan once.

2155
01:31:16.760 --> 01:31:17.760
And it was,

2156
01:31:17.760 --> 01:31:20.760
and it was voted in the top 15

2157
01:31:20.760 --> 01:31:23.760
on the Forbes list of best places to go.

2158
01:31:23.760 --> 01:31:24.760
And you just go,

2159
01:31:24.760 --> 01:31:25.760
and you just look and go,

2160
01:31:25.760 --> 01:31:26.760
well, that's not what.

2161
01:31:26.760 --> 01:31:27.760
What if that person,

2162
01:31:27.760 --> 01:31:29.760
let me play Devils out of here for a second?

2163
01:31:29.760 --> 01:31:31.760
What if they made a joke about New York

2164
01:31:31.760 --> 01:31:33.760
that was actually funny?

2165
01:31:33.760 --> 01:31:34.760
Slightly off topic.

2166
01:31:34.760 --> 01:31:35.760
Great.

2167
01:31:35.760 --> 01:31:36.760
But actually funny.

2168
01:31:36.760 --> 01:31:37.760
And then you get right back into.

2169
01:31:37.760 --> 01:31:38.760
Right.

2170
01:31:38.760 --> 01:31:39.760
It's great.

2171
01:31:39.760 --> 01:31:40.760
So it's not about,

2172
01:31:40.760 --> 01:31:42.760
in that case, it's not about bad switching.

2173
01:31:42.760 --> 01:31:44.760
It's about egocentrism.

2174
01:31:44.760 --> 01:31:45.760
You're not reading the room well.

2175
01:31:45.760 --> 01:31:48.760
You're not serving the goals of the group.

2176
01:31:48.760 --> 01:31:49.760
Yeah.

2177
01:31:49.760 --> 01:31:50.760
Right.

2178
01:31:50.760 --> 01:31:51.760
Levity.

2179
01:31:51.760 --> 01:31:52.760
Moments of levity.

2180
01:31:52.760 --> 01:31:53.760
Often are about,

2181
01:31:53.760 --> 01:31:55.760
briefly switching to an adjacent topic

2182
01:31:55.760 --> 01:31:56.760
and then switching back.

2183
01:31:56.760 --> 01:31:57.760
Yeah.

2184
01:31:57.760 --> 01:32:00.760
And it's actually worth that sidebar

2185
01:32:00.760 --> 01:32:01.760
because it's fun.

2186
01:32:01.760 --> 01:32:02.760
And everybody's like,

2187
01:32:02.760 --> 01:32:03.760
oh, thank God,

2188
01:32:03.760 --> 01:32:04.760
I don't want to like circle the drain on New York

2189
01:32:04.760 --> 01:32:06.760
for a million more minutes.

2190
01:32:06.760 --> 01:32:09.760
The problem is this guy is chiming in being like,

2191
01:32:09.760 --> 01:32:12.760
let me tell you about the time I went to New York.

2192
01:32:12.760 --> 01:32:13.760
Yeah.

2193
01:32:13.760 --> 01:32:14.760
And the collective,

2194
01:32:14.760 --> 01:32:15.760
I'm trying to go in one direction.

2195
01:32:15.760 --> 01:32:16.760
Actually think this about this a lot

2196
01:32:16.760 --> 01:32:18.760
in the context of podcasting.

2197
01:32:19.760 --> 01:32:21.760
I would hate to have a co-host.

2198
01:32:21.760 --> 01:32:22.760
And it would be very hard.

2199
01:32:22.760 --> 01:32:24.760
It would be so hard.

2200
01:32:24.760 --> 01:32:25.760
Because in my mind,

2201
01:32:25.760 --> 01:32:27.760
there's a particular direction I'm going in.

2202
01:32:27.760 --> 01:32:28.760
Yes.

2203
01:32:28.760 --> 01:32:29.760
And if the they one aligned

2204
01:32:29.760 --> 01:32:30.760
with the direction I'm going in,

2205
01:32:30.760 --> 01:32:31.760
it's rough.

2206
01:32:31.760 --> 01:32:32.760
I mean, you see it sometimes

2207
01:32:32.760 --> 01:32:33.760
on podcast with a co-host.

2208
01:32:33.760 --> 01:32:34.760
Yes.

2209
01:32:34.760 --> 01:32:35.760
They're going in a direction

2210
01:32:35.760 --> 01:32:36.760
talking about immigration.

2211
01:32:36.760 --> 01:32:37.760
And they say like,

2212
01:32:37.760 --> 01:32:38.760
but wait, wait, wait, wait,

2213
01:32:38.760 --> 01:32:39.760
just one thing.

2214
01:32:39.760 --> 01:32:40.760
One quick thing before we move on

2215
01:32:40.760 --> 01:32:41.760
and then you go back.

2216
01:32:41.760 --> 01:32:42.760
I go to a different direction.

2217
01:32:42.760 --> 01:32:43.760
Oh my gosh.

2218
01:32:43.760 --> 01:32:44.760
And as a viewer,

2219
01:32:44.760 --> 01:32:45.760
you're like, oh, you are making progress

2220
01:32:45.760 --> 01:32:46.760
towards the crux of the issue.

2221
01:32:46.760 --> 01:32:47.760
Yes.

2222
01:32:47.760 --> 01:32:48.760
I think that's what I'm talking about.

2223
01:32:48.760 --> 01:32:49.760
Like how would you make sure you're moving

2224
01:32:49.760 --> 01:32:51.760
in the right direction as the group?

2225
01:32:51.760 --> 01:32:53.760
And this is a great example

2226
01:32:53.760 --> 01:32:56.760
because we often think of one-on-one conversation

2227
01:32:56.760 --> 01:32:59.760
as the same task as a three-person group.

2228
01:32:59.760 --> 01:33:01.760
As soon as a third person pulls up a chair,

2229
01:33:01.760 --> 01:33:02.760
whether it's a podcast,

2230
01:33:02.760 --> 01:33:03.760
co-host,

2231
01:33:03.760 --> 01:33:05.760
or a friend at a bar,

2232
01:33:05.760 --> 01:33:06.760
that task,

2233
01:33:06.760 --> 01:33:09.760
it's a categorically different task now.

2234
01:33:09.760 --> 01:33:11.760
Because that third person has the power

2235
01:33:11.760 --> 01:33:13.760
to take you on side bars,

2236
01:33:13.760 --> 01:33:15.760
it's no longer being co-created

2237
01:33:15.760 --> 01:33:17.760
intimately between two minds.

2238
01:33:17.760 --> 01:33:18.760
All of a sudden,

2239
01:33:18.760 --> 01:33:19.760
we get into this, like,

2240
01:33:19.760 --> 01:33:20.760
coordination,

2241
01:33:20.760 --> 01:33:22.760
kerfuffle that can be very,

2242
01:33:22.760 --> 01:33:23.760
very frustrating.

2243
01:33:23.760 --> 01:33:24.760
I suspect that's part

2244
01:33:24.760 --> 01:33:25.760
of why you don't, like,

2245
01:33:25.760 --> 01:33:26.760
groups, actually,

2246
01:33:26.760 --> 01:33:27.760
is that you, like,

2247
01:33:27.760 --> 01:33:30.760
so strongly prefer one-on-one.

2248
01:33:30.760 --> 01:33:32.760
Yeah, I think that's true.

2249
01:33:32.760 --> 01:33:33.760
I think that's true.

2250
01:33:33.760 --> 01:33:34.760
I prefer one-on-one.

2251
01:33:34.760 --> 01:33:35.760
I prefer the depth and...

2252
01:33:35.760 --> 01:33:36.760
Yeah.

2253
01:33:36.760 --> 01:33:38.760
Small talk feels

2254
01:33:38.760 --> 01:33:39.760
really disingenuous sometimes.

2255
01:33:39.760 --> 01:33:40.760
Can I push you?

2256
01:33:40.760 --> 01:33:43.760
Do you think it's about control?

2257
01:33:44.760 --> 01:33:46.760
Because, I imagine you had a co-host,

2258
01:33:46.760 --> 01:33:47.760
the problem that...

2259
01:33:47.760 --> 01:33:49.760
The reason you'd feel so frustrated with that,

2260
01:33:49.760 --> 01:33:51.760
yes, it's about the flow of the conversation

2261
01:33:51.760 --> 01:33:52.760
getting to a magical moment.

2262
01:33:52.760 --> 01:33:53.760
It's also, like,

2263
01:33:53.760 --> 01:33:54.760
oh, you have to, like,

2264
01:33:54.760 --> 01:33:55.760
relinquish control

2265
01:33:55.760 --> 01:33:57.760
to someone else in that moment.

2266
01:33:57.760 --> 01:33:58.760
It's interesting,

2267
01:33:58.760 --> 01:34:00.760
because I was with a colleague

2268
01:34:00.760 --> 01:34:01.760
of mine the other day,

2269
01:34:01.760 --> 01:34:04.760
and we were interviewing some people.

2270
01:34:04.760 --> 01:34:06.760
So we're just saying we're interviewing three people.

2271
01:34:06.760 --> 01:34:07.760
Yeah.

2272
01:34:07.760 --> 01:34:08.760
The first interview,

2273
01:34:08.760 --> 01:34:10.760
I told her to lead the interview,

2274
01:34:10.760 --> 01:34:12.760
and I enjoyed the interview,

2275
01:34:12.760 --> 01:34:14.760
because I could watch her go in her direction,

2276
01:34:14.760 --> 01:34:16.760
felt very, like, a straight line.

2277
01:34:16.760 --> 01:34:17.760
The second interview,

2278
01:34:17.760 --> 01:34:19.760
I didn't say anything,

2279
01:34:19.760 --> 01:34:21.760
and what happened is I started asking them a question.

2280
01:34:21.760 --> 01:34:23.760
Now, I'm sat there asking this guy a question,

2281
01:34:23.760 --> 01:34:25.760
because I'm trying to figure out this particular answer.

2282
01:34:25.760 --> 01:34:27.760
So I'm kind of, like, circling this issue,

2283
01:34:27.760 --> 01:34:28.760
not kind of giving it away,

2284
01:34:28.760 --> 01:34:29.760
and I'm getting one step closer,

2285
01:34:29.760 --> 01:34:31.760
and another step closer,

2286
01:34:31.760 --> 01:34:32.760
and then my colleague comes in

2287
01:34:32.760 --> 01:34:34.760
and asks a completely different question.

2288
01:34:34.760 --> 01:34:35.760
And you're like,

2289
01:34:35.760 --> 01:34:36.760
oh!

2290
01:34:36.760 --> 01:34:37.760
And I'm like, oh, no!

2291
01:34:37.760 --> 01:34:39.760
I was, like, so close to figuring out this thing

2292
01:34:39.760 --> 01:34:41.760
about them that I suspect is a red flag.

2293
01:34:41.760 --> 01:34:44.760
So, like, and then she came and asked the question,

2294
01:34:44.760 --> 01:34:46.760
and then I'm sat there asking, oh my god, no, no,

2295
01:34:46.760 --> 01:34:48.760
I have to go right back to this completely different subject

2296
01:34:48.760 --> 01:34:49.760
I know.

2297
01:34:49.760 --> 01:34:50.760
And you're never going to get your answer.

2298
01:34:50.760 --> 01:34:51.760
So anyway, afterwards,

2299
01:34:51.760 --> 01:34:52.760
I had a conversation with her,

2300
01:34:52.760 --> 01:34:53.760
and I said, listen, when we do interviews,

2301
01:34:53.760 --> 01:34:55.760
I think we need to clarify who's leading.

2302
01:34:55.760 --> 01:34:56.760
That's right.

2303
01:34:56.760 --> 01:34:57.760
I'll sit and listen when you do it,

2304
01:34:57.760 --> 01:34:59.760
then when I do it, you sit and, you know,

2305
01:34:59.760 --> 01:35:01.760
and so I think that's part of it.

2306
01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:04.760
That's part of the roles thing I was talking about before too, right?

2307
01:35:04.760 --> 01:35:06.760
Like, there's this roles of, like, you're scribing,

2308
01:35:06.760 --> 01:35:08.760
you're keeping time, whatever.

2309
01:35:08.760 --> 01:35:11.760
But also having clarity about, like, who's the topic leader here?

2310
01:35:11.760 --> 01:35:12.760
Yeah.

2311
01:35:12.760 --> 01:35:14.760
And clarity, especially in a group of three,

2312
01:35:14.760 --> 01:35:16.760
can be incredibly helpful.

2313
01:35:16.760 --> 01:35:18.760
In lack of it is chaotic.

2314
01:35:18.760 --> 01:35:19.760
And nightmare.

2315
01:35:19.760 --> 01:35:20.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2316
01:35:20.760 --> 01:35:21.760
Yeah.

2317
01:35:21.760 --> 01:35:23.760
What is the most important thing we haven't talked about

2318
01:35:23.760 --> 01:35:25.760
as it relates to likability and having great conversations

2319
01:35:25.760 --> 01:35:27.760
and disillikeability if that's a word?

2320
01:35:27.760 --> 01:35:29.760
I want to distance ourselves from likability.

2321
01:35:29.760 --> 01:35:34.760
I think likability is one very narrow goal of good conversation.

2322
01:35:34.760 --> 01:35:36.760
What other things do people care about?

2323
01:35:36.760 --> 01:35:38.760
Do you know why I use certain words?

2324
01:35:38.760 --> 01:35:39.760
Tell me.

2325
01:35:39.760 --> 01:35:41.760
It's because the audience have told me.

2326
01:35:41.760 --> 01:35:42.760
So I take what they care about.

2327
01:35:42.760 --> 01:35:43.760
Please.

2328
01:35:43.760 --> 01:35:45.760
They care about dealing with narcissists.

2329
01:35:45.760 --> 01:35:46.760
Good.

2330
01:35:46.760 --> 01:35:47.760
They care about how to have people.

2331
01:35:47.760 --> 01:35:49.760
Because they struggle with it?

2332
01:35:49.760 --> 01:35:50.760
I guess so, yeah.

2333
01:35:50.760 --> 01:35:51.760
Yeah.

2334
01:35:51.760 --> 01:35:52.760
It's an interesting label.

2335
01:35:52.760 --> 01:35:53.760
It's very accusatory of other people.

2336
01:35:53.760 --> 01:35:54.760
Very accusatory.

2337
01:35:54.760 --> 01:35:55.760
Yeah.

2338
01:35:55.760 --> 01:35:58.760
Because I think everybody thinks the person they disagree with is a narcissist.

2339
01:35:58.760 --> 01:36:00.760
It's like a bunch of things like just...

2340
01:36:00.760 --> 01:36:04.760
So a reframe of it is they struggle with disagreement.

2341
01:36:04.760 --> 01:36:05.760
Yeah.

2342
01:36:05.760 --> 01:36:09.760
The other thing is they care a lot about difficult conversations.

2343
01:36:09.760 --> 01:36:11.760
It's the pain of their life.

2344
01:36:11.760 --> 01:36:12.760
They struggle with them.

2345
01:36:12.760 --> 01:36:13.760
They avoid them.

2346
01:36:13.760 --> 01:36:14.760
They think if they could only get good at it,

2347
01:36:14.760 --> 01:36:15.760
then they'd be everything they want to be.

2348
01:36:15.760 --> 01:36:16.760
Yeah.

2349
01:36:16.760 --> 01:36:18.760
They care about being liked.

2350
01:36:18.760 --> 01:36:19.760
Yeah.

2351
01:36:19.760 --> 01:36:23.760
They care about avoiding things that make them disliked that they're unaware of.

2352
01:36:23.760 --> 01:36:24.760
Ah.

2353
01:36:24.760 --> 01:36:25.760
That we're doing.

2354
01:36:25.760 --> 01:36:27.760
I would say...

2355
01:36:27.760 --> 01:36:31.760
I guess the fifth one is they care a lot about persuasion.

2356
01:36:31.760 --> 01:36:32.760
Remarkably.

2357
01:36:32.760 --> 01:36:35.760
And Julian Treasure, who did that Ted talk about speaking,

2358
01:36:35.760 --> 01:36:36.760
told me this.

2359
01:36:36.760 --> 01:36:38.760
People don't really care much about listening.

2360
01:36:38.760 --> 01:36:39.760
Yeah.

2361
01:36:39.760 --> 01:36:41.760
Because they don't know.

2362
01:36:41.760 --> 01:36:42.760
It's funny.

2363
01:36:42.760 --> 01:36:45.760
It's so interesting to hear you say those things.

2364
01:36:45.760 --> 01:36:49.760
To me, those are all very related to each other

2365
01:36:49.760 --> 01:36:55.760
and revealing that people don't have great instincts about their strengths and weaknesses

2366
01:36:55.760 --> 01:36:58.760
and what's hard and easy about conversation.

2367
01:36:58.760 --> 01:37:01.760
Persuasion, difficult conversations,

2368
01:37:01.760 --> 01:37:07.760
thinking other people are narcissists and being liked,

2369
01:37:07.760 --> 01:37:12.760
they're all related to mismanaging conflict and disagreement

2370
01:37:12.760 --> 01:37:17.760
and struggling to manage moments of difficulty well.

2371
01:37:17.760 --> 01:37:24.760
The social landscape of all conversation is so much broader than people realize, I think,

2372
01:37:24.760 --> 01:37:29.760
because you were so narrowly focused on these very noticeable,

2373
01:37:29.760 --> 01:37:34.760
memorable, salient moments of disagreement that were like,

2374
01:37:34.760 --> 01:37:35.760
oh, shit, that's hard.

2375
01:37:35.760 --> 01:37:37.760
And we got mad and it ruined and we broke up.

2376
01:37:37.760 --> 01:37:38.760
Of course.

2377
01:37:38.760 --> 01:37:42.760
But you're also super boring, like 80% of the time.

2378
01:37:42.760 --> 01:37:46.760
And also you're not really listening to other people.

2379
01:37:46.760 --> 01:37:50.760
You're missing so many opportunities to actually learn from people

2380
01:37:50.760 --> 01:37:51.760
because you're not listening.

2381
01:37:51.760 --> 01:37:54.760
You're not asking enough follow-up questions.

2382
01:37:54.760 --> 01:37:56.760
You're not asking enough questions at all.

2383
01:37:56.760 --> 01:37:58.760
You're talking too much time talking about yourself.

2384
01:37:58.760 --> 01:38:01.760
Like, obviously, this is what people,

2385
01:38:01.760 --> 01:38:05.760
because the thing that I will remember the most is the conflict,

2386
01:38:05.760 --> 01:38:07.760
the issue, the problem, the emotional situation.

2387
01:38:07.760 --> 01:38:08.760
Yeah.

2388
01:38:08.760 --> 01:38:10.760
People don't think they're boring.

2389
01:38:10.760 --> 01:38:11.760
No.

2390
01:38:11.760 --> 01:38:14.760
It's a much harder thing to notice.

2391
01:38:14.760 --> 01:38:15.760
Yeah.

2392
01:38:15.760 --> 01:38:17.760
And it's a much harder thing to get feedback about

2393
01:38:17.760 --> 01:38:20.760
because no one's going to be like, hey, bro, you're boring.

2394
01:38:20.760 --> 01:38:21.760
Yeah.

2395
01:38:21.760 --> 01:38:23.760
And if the things I'm interested in by way of me being interested,

2396
01:38:23.760 --> 01:38:24.760
I think they're interesting.

2397
01:38:24.760 --> 01:38:25.760
Yeah.

2398
01:38:25.760 --> 01:38:28.760
So I think that, I'm just making stuff at Pokemon,

2399
01:38:28.760 --> 01:38:30.760
I think that's the most important interesting thing in the world.

2400
01:38:30.760 --> 01:38:33.760
And let me now tell you everything I know about Pokemon.

2401
01:38:33.760 --> 01:38:34.760
Yeah.

2402
01:38:34.760 --> 01:38:38.760
It's like this misunderstanding of what is the purpose of conversation

2403
01:38:38.760 --> 01:38:41.760
is not to say things we know at other people.

2404
01:38:41.760 --> 01:38:44.760
It's about finding things we're both interested in

2405
01:38:44.760 --> 01:38:47.760
and then learning everything that you know about that.

2406
01:38:47.760 --> 01:38:51.760
Like now I'm just going to take a journey through your brain

2407
01:38:51.760 --> 01:38:53.760
of everything that you think and feel about this thing

2408
01:38:53.760 --> 01:38:55.760
that we're both interested in.

2409
01:38:55.760 --> 01:38:58.760
And on that journey, we might land in this magical place

2410
01:38:58.760 --> 01:39:00.760
where I'm learning stuff from you.

2411
01:39:00.760 --> 01:39:01.760
You find me quite charming.

2412
01:39:01.760 --> 01:39:02.760
We're laughing together.

2413
01:39:02.760 --> 01:39:05.760
And we feel seen and known and understood.

2414
01:39:05.760 --> 01:39:08.760
But it's definitely not going to be me telling you about Pokemon

2415
01:39:08.760 --> 01:39:10.760
if you're deeply disinterested in it.

2416
01:39:10.760 --> 01:39:12.760
And there's just the difference between being interesting

2417
01:39:12.760 --> 01:39:14.760
and interested, we think.

2418
01:39:14.760 --> 01:39:15.760
Yes.

2419
01:39:15.760 --> 01:39:18.760
Like I think that the game of being interesting is to show you.

2420
01:39:18.760 --> 01:39:21.760
Life is not about walking through life

2421
01:39:21.760 --> 01:39:25.760
giving like many speeches or like many TED Talks, right?

2422
01:39:25.760 --> 01:39:28.760
It's about conversation is interactive.

2423
01:39:28.760 --> 01:39:31.760
It's co-created with two independent minds.

2424
01:39:31.760 --> 01:39:34.760
Entrepreneurs make this mistake a lot too.

2425
01:39:34.760 --> 01:39:39.760
They may be driven by, you know, Dragon's Den and Shark Tank.

2426
01:39:39.760 --> 01:39:41.760
You feel like it's not your fault.

2427
01:39:41.760 --> 01:39:45.760
You feel like you need to stand up there and like pitch your idea.

2428
01:39:45.760 --> 01:39:47.760
And in order to be successful,

2429
01:39:47.760 --> 01:39:50.760
you give the most compelling public speech about it.

2430
01:39:50.760 --> 01:39:53.760
Most entrepreneurs or business owners

2431
01:39:53.760 --> 01:39:55.760
actually are talking to investors and colleagues

2432
01:39:55.760 --> 01:39:59.760
and potential partner strategic partners in conversation.

2433
01:39:59.760 --> 01:40:01.760
And so before you get to the point where you're like,

2434
01:40:01.760 --> 01:40:03.760
let me tell you about my amazing company.

2435
01:40:03.760 --> 01:40:06.760
You need to ask them a million questions

2436
01:40:06.760 --> 01:40:09.760
and get to know them and understand what their pain points are

2437
01:40:09.760 --> 01:40:12.760
and how many kids they have and what they actually care about.

2438
01:40:12.760 --> 01:40:14.760
So if you're lucky,

2439
01:40:14.760 --> 01:40:17.760
the thing that and product or service you have actually fills that need

2440
01:40:17.760 --> 01:40:18.760
and be like, guess what?

2441
01:40:18.760 --> 01:40:19.760
I have this amazing thing for you.

2442
01:40:19.760 --> 01:40:22.760
Wouldn't you love to invest in it?

2443
01:40:22.760 --> 01:40:24.760
Andrew Pustamonte said something to me about this.

2444
01:40:24.760 --> 01:40:28.760
He said he's a spy for the CIA for about 10 years.

2445
01:40:28.760 --> 01:40:30.760
And he said one of the things you have to train yourself

2446
01:40:30.760 --> 01:40:34.760
to understand as a spy is that there's a difference between

2447
01:40:34.760 --> 01:40:38.760
your perspective, which is like what I see right now.

2448
01:40:38.760 --> 01:40:40.760
And in my perspective, I see a mirror over there

2449
01:40:40.760 --> 01:40:42.760
and there's an award and I see some things behind you.

2450
01:40:42.760 --> 01:40:43.760
I see two cameras over your shoulder.

2451
01:40:43.760 --> 01:40:44.760
I see that.

2452
01:40:44.760 --> 01:40:46.760
There's a wooden beam over there behind you by the way.

2453
01:40:46.760 --> 01:40:48.760
And there's like some green tape above there.

2454
01:40:48.760 --> 01:40:49.760
And then there's your perception.

2455
01:40:49.760 --> 01:40:50.760
Yes.

2456
01:40:50.760 --> 01:40:51.760
Your perception is all this shit.

2457
01:40:51.760 --> 01:40:53.760
Like I couldn't see any of this stuff.

2458
01:40:53.760 --> 01:40:54.760
Yeah.

2459
01:40:54.760 --> 01:40:55.760
Behind me.

2460
01:40:55.760 --> 01:40:56.760
That's right.

2461
01:40:56.760 --> 01:40:59.760
And he said like as a spy, they train you to sit in the other person's perception.

2462
01:40:59.760 --> 01:41:01.760
Because if you can't do that, you're never going to be able to persuade them.

2463
01:41:01.760 --> 01:41:03.760
Like you have to realize that actually,

2464
01:41:03.760 --> 01:41:05.760
you sat in front of me, have a different brain.

2465
01:41:05.760 --> 01:41:08.760
And the only way I can guess what's in your brain.

2466
01:41:08.760 --> 01:41:11.760
I can guess maybe there's a mirror behind me.

2467
01:41:11.760 --> 01:41:12.760
Maybe there's art.

2468
01:41:12.760 --> 01:41:13.760
Maybe there's just a wall.

2469
01:41:13.760 --> 01:41:15.760
I can guess based on what I see,

2470
01:41:15.760 --> 01:41:17.760
based on what I've experienced,

2471
01:41:17.760 --> 01:41:18.760
we're in a room.

2472
01:41:18.760 --> 01:41:22.760
So I'm going to guess there's some sort of wall behind me and not out into the street.

2473
01:41:22.760 --> 01:41:24.760
But we're really bad at guessing.

2474
01:41:24.760 --> 01:41:28.760
Tons of psychological research suggests that human beings are terrible

2475
01:41:28.760 --> 01:41:32.760
at using our own experiences to guess other people's perceptual realities.

2476
01:41:32.760 --> 01:41:34.760
Guess your perspective.

2477
01:41:34.760 --> 01:41:36.760
So instead of guessing,

2478
01:41:36.760 --> 01:41:38.760
I need to ask you,

2479
01:41:38.760 --> 01:41:40.760
hey, Steven, what do you see behind me?

2480
01:41:40.760 --> 01:41:42.760
I need to ask you directly,

2481
01:41:42.760 --> 01:41:43.760
how does that make you feel?

2482
01:41:43.760 --> 01:41:45.760
Why do you think it was built that way?

2483
01:41:45.760 --> 01:41:46.760
What do you feel when you're sitting here?

2484
01:41:46.760 --> 01:41:48.760
Why do you think it's asymmetrical?

2485
01:41:48.760 --> 01:41:49.760
Why do I see books?

2486
01:41:49.760 --> 01:41:50.760
But you don't.

2487
01:41:50.760 --> 01:41:55.760
The only way to truly understand another person's mind is to ask them and to talk about it.

2488
01:41:55.760 --> 01:41:56.760
I asked my assistant,

2489
01:41:56.760 --> 01:41:59.760
so if you define your reliable security system for a new place in LA,

2490
01:41:59.760 --> 01:42:03.760
what she discovered is that most available options have the same issue.

2491
01:42:03.760 --> 01:42:07.760
They're reactive and only take action after someone has broken into your house.

2492
01:42:07.760 --> 01:42:11.760
Simply say if who sponsors this show has a completely different approach,

2493
01:42:11.760 --> 01:42:13.760
if someone's lurking near your home or office,

2494
01:42:13.760 --> 01:42:15.760
their AI powered cameras detect them,

2495
01:42:15.760 --> 01:42:19.760
then human agents who act like a remote security guard take action.

2496
01:42:19.760 --> 01:42:23.760
Speaking directly to the intruder, letting them know they're being watched on camera,

2497
01:42:23.760 --> 01:42:27.760
and if necessary, triggering a siren or spotlight to scare them off,

2498
01:42:27.760 --> 01:42:30.760
or they can call 911 for police dispatch.

2499
01:42:30.760 --> 01:42:33.760
This immediate response is why I went with SimplySafe.

2500
01:42:33.760 --> 01:42:35.760
No one else approaches security in the same way,

2501
01:42:35.760 --> 01:42:38.760
but they have no long-term contracts or hidden fees,

2502
01:42:38.760 --> 01:42:40.760
so you can cancel at any time.

2503
01:42:40.760 --> 01:42:42.760
They also have a 60-day money back guarantee.

2504
01:42:42.760 --> 01:42:47.760
My audience can say 50% on a SimplySafe home security system.

2505
01:42:47.760 --> 01:42:49.760
At SimplySafe.com slash DOAC.

2506
01:42:49.760 --> 01:42:52.760
That is SimplySafe.com slash DOAC.

2507
01:42:52.760 --> 01:42:55.760
There's no safe, like a SimplySafe.

2508
01:42:55.760 --> 01:42:58.760
You know, every once in a while you come across a product

2509
01:42:58.760 --> 01:43:00.760
that has such a huge impact on your life

2510
01:43:00.760 --> 01:43:04.760
that you'd probably describe it as a game changer.

2511
01:43:04.760 --> 01:43:09.760
And I would say, for about 35% to 40% of my team,

2512
01:43:09.760 --> 01:43:12.760
they would currently describe this product that I have in front of me,

2513
01:43:12.760 --> 01:43:17.760
called Keytone IQ, which you can get at Keytone.com as a game changer.

2514
01:43:17.760 --> 01:43:19.760
But the reason I became a co-owner of this company

2515
01:43:19.760 --> 01:43:21.760
and the reason why they now are responsive to this podcast

2516
01:43:21.760 --> 01:43:24.760
is because one day when I came to work,

2517
01:43:24.760 --> 01:43:26.760
there was a box of this stuff set on my desk,

2518
01:43:26.760 --> 01:43:29.760
or what it was, Lily in my team says that this company

2519
01:43:29.760 --> 01:43:30.760
have been in touch.

2520
01:43:30.760 --> 01:43:32.760
So I went upstairs, tried it,

2521
01:43:32.760 --> 01:43:34.760
and quite frankly, the rest is history.

2522
01:43:34.760 --> 01:43:37.760
In terms of my focus, my energy levels, how I feel,

2523
01:43:37.760 --> 01:43:40.760
how I work, how productive I am, game changer.

2524
01:43:40.760 --> 01:43:41.760
So if you want to give it a try,

2525
01:43:41.760 --> 01:43:44.760
visit Keytone.com slash DOAC and for 30% off.

2526
01:43:44.760 --> 01:43:47.760
You'll also get a free gift with your second shipment.

2527
01:43:47.760 --> 01:43:51.760
And now you can find Keytone IQ at Target stores across the United States,

2528
01:43:51.760 --> 01:43:54.760
where your first shot is completely free of charge.

2529
01:43:56.760 --> 01:43:57.760
So when I go into a business meeting,

2530
01:43:57.760 --> 01:43:59.760
or I'm trying to persuade someone to,

2531
01:43:59.760 --> 01:44:01.760
I don't know, join our company, whatever.

2532
01:44:01.760 --> 01:44:04.760
At the beginning of that conversation,

2533
01:44:04.760 --> 01:44:07.760
are there key questions that I should be using

2534
01:44:07.760 --> 01:44:09.760
to understand their ideology?

2535
01:44:09.760 --> 01:44:12.760
Like understand the hero's journey

2536
01:44:12.760 --> 01:44:14.760
that they have in their head of them?

2537
01:44:14.760 --> 01:44:17.760
You should ask more and listen to their answers

2538
01:44:17.760 --> 01:44:19.760
and then ask the next question.

2539
01:44:19.760 --> 01:44:20.760
What kind of questions?

2540
01:44:20.760 --> 01:44:21.760
A good one that I like to start with is,

2541
01:44:21.760 --> 01:44:23.760
what are you excited about lately?

2542
01:44:24.760 --> 01:44:27.760
It's very revealing of what is top of mind.

2543
01:44:27.760 --> 01:44:29.760
You asked me that question today, I loved it.

2544
01:44:29.760 --> 01:44:34.760
It also implies that you knew what they were excited about previously,

2545
01:44:34.760 --> 01:44:38.760
so it can help you kind of revisit that a bit over time.

2546
01:44:38.760 --> 01:44:41.760
Everyone has an answer to that question.

2547
01:44:41.760 --> 01:44:44.760
Even if they're terribly depressed, they're excited about something,

2548
01:44:44.760 --> 01:44:46.760
maybe the prospect of making a friend.

2549
01:44:46.760 --> 01:44:49.760
Anything that someone is excited about means

2550
01:44:49.760 --> 01:44:51.760
you can stay on that topic and ask more.

2551
01:44:52.760 --> 01:44:55.760
What could I do to help you do that?

2552
01:44:55.760 --> 01:44:59.760
We can just carry on down that path.

2553
01:44:59.760 --> 01:45:01.760
When I asked you that question three hours ago,

2554
01:45:01.760 --> 01:45:02.760
you said two things.

2555
01:45:02.760 --> 01:45:04.760
You said about putting the script clip into schools,

2556
01:45:04.760 --> 01:45:07.760
but you also talked about men and their conversations.

2557
01:45:07.760 --> 01:45:10.760
You said you had done a study recently about men.

2558
01:45:10.760 --> 01:45:12.760
This is me remembering what you said.

2559
01:45:12.760 --> 01:45:14.760
You called back, loving it.

2560
01:45:14.760 --> 01:45:15.760
Thank you for that.

2561
01:45:15.760 --> 01:45:16.760
But men in their conversations.

2562
01:45:16.760 --> 01:45:18.760
You said you had done an interesting study recently

2563
01:45:18.760 --> 01:45:20.760
which you can't go into the details about,

2564
01:45:20.760 --> 01:45:22.760
it was revealing about male friendship.

2565
01:45:22.760 --> 01:45:23.760
Yes.

2566
01:45:23.760 --> 01:45:25.760
Our men bad at communication.

2567
01:45:25.760 --> 01:45:27.760
If so, why are we bad at communication?

2568
01:45:27.760 --> 01:45:28.760
Conversation's hard.

2569
01:45:28.760 --> 01:45:31.760
When you look under the hood, it looks more like a train wreck.

2570
01:45:31.760 --> 01:45:32.760
You're being diplomatic.

2571
01:45:32.760 --> 01:45:33.760
Then I will be...

2572
01:45:33.760 --> 01:45:35.760
I'll be less diplomatic in a moment.

2573
01:45:35.760 --> 01:45:37.760
It looks more like a train wreck than a sort of tidy script

2574
01:45:37.760 --> 01:45:39.760
that you would see on a TV show.

2575
01:45:39.760 --> 01:45:40.760
It's messy.

2576
01:45:40.760 --> 01:45:41.760
We make mistakes.

2577
01:45:41.760 --> 01:45:42.760
We have to repair it.

2578
01:45:42.760 --> 01:45:44.760
We need to check our understanding.

2579
01:45:44.760 --> 01:45:47.760
We need to make apologies constantly.

2580
01:45:47.760 --> 01:45:51.760
So perfection is not the goal for anyone in conversation.

2581
01:45:51.760 --> 01:45:54.760
When you look at gender differences,

2582
01:45:54.760 --> 01:45:56.760
there are real gender differences.

2583
01:45:56.760 --> 01:45:58.760
We know that in friendship,

2584
01:45:58.760 --> 01:46:00.760
women tend to actually face each other

2585
01:46:00.760 --> 01:46:01.760
and talk to each other.

2586
01:46:01.760 --> 01:46:02.760
Men tend to do activities, right?

2587
01:46:02.760 --> 01:46:03.760
Shoulder to shoulder.

2588
01:46:03.760 --> 01:46:04.760
We're fishing.

2589
01:46:04.760 --> 01:46:05.760
We're playing basketball.

2590
01:46:05.760 --> 01:46:08.760
We're in fantasy sports on our computers.

2591
01:46:08.760 --> 01:46:10.760
This project that I did recently,

2592
01:46:10.760 --> 01:46:14.760
I always spend lots of time analyzing transcripts

2593
01:46:14.760 --> 01:46:15.760
at very large scale.

2594
01:46:15.760 --> 01:46:19.760
This project, though, I was observing conversations live.

2595
01:46:19.760 --> 01:46:22.760
And for whatever reason, that was much more visceral

2596
01:46:22.760 --> 01:46:24.760
than what I usually do as a scientist.

2597
01:46:24.760 --> 01:46:27.760
And it was all men meeting other men

2598
01:46:27.760 --> 01:46:30.760
for the first time and sort of trying to forge friendships.

2599
01:46:30.760 --> 01:46:33.760
And what was so hard to watch

2600
01:46:33.760 --> 01:46:35.760
is that they don't...

2601
01:46:35.760 --> 01:46:38.760
They've really struggled with vulnerability.

2602
01:46:38.760 --> 01:46:41.760
Vulnerability is such a key component of friendship.

2603
01:46:42.760 --> 01:46:44.760
Friendship experts say you need consistency,

2604
01:46:44.760 --> 01:46:47.760
so interacting repeatedly,

2605
01:46:47.760 --> 01:46:50.760
positivity, having fun together.

2606
01:46:50.760 --> 01:46:52.760
But maybe most importantly, vulnerability,

2607
01:46:52.760 --> 01:46:54.760
like sharing not only your feelings with each other,

2608
01:46:54.760 --> 01:46:56.760
but what are you struggling with?

2609
01:46:56.760 --> 01:46:57.760
What are your hopes and dreams?

2610
01:46:57.760 --> 01:46:58.760
What are your goals?

2611
01:46:58.760 --> 01:47:00.760
What do you want to get out of this?

2612
01:47:00.760 --> 01:47:04.760
It was so maddening to watch these men

2613
01:47:04.760 --> 01:47:06.760
have hundreds of conversations

2614
01:47:06.760 --> 01:47:09.760
and none of them asked those questions

2615
01:47:09.760 --> 01:47:11.760
or talked about those things with each other.

2616
01:47:11.760 --> 01:47:14.760
As a woman, it was almost shocking

2617
01:47:14.760 --> 01:47:16.760
because it's sort of like what women

2618
01:47:16.760 --> 01:47:19.760
would probably talk about within the first three minutes

2619
01:47:19.760 --> 01:47:21.760
of the conversation.

2620
01:47:21.760 --> 01:47:22.760
And I couldn't believe...

2621
01:47:22.760 --> 01:47:24.760
I was like, wow, this is really...

2622
01:47:24.760 --> 01:47:26.760
This really seems like a massive difference.

2623
01:47:26.760 --> 01:47:29.760
And I worry that large scale,

2624
01:47:29.760 --> 01:47:33.760
the leap from being basketball buddies

2625
01:47:33.760 --> 01:47:35.760
or fantasy sports buddies

2626
01:47:35.760 --> 01:47:38.760
into vulnerable conversation feels so scary

2627
01:47:39.760 --> 01:47:43.760
and risky that men are unable to make the leap.

2628
01:47:43.760 --> 01:47:46.760
And that's a huge part of what's holding back

2629
01:47:46.760 --> 01:47:49.760
men from having meaningful friendships.

2630
01:47:49.760 --> 01:47:51.760
And we know that loneliness is so much worse

2631
01:47:51.760 --> 01:47:53.760
for men than for women.

2632
01:47:53.760 --> 01:47:55.760
And they have way less friends.

2633
01:47:55.760 --> 01:47:56.760
Yes, yes.

2634
01:47:56.760 --> 01:47:58.760
A ridiculous proportion of men

2635
01:47:58.760 --> 01:48:01.760
say, report having zero close friends.

2636
01:48:01.760 --> 01:48:04.760
40% potentially?

2637
01:48:04.760 --> 01:48:06.760
Wow.

2638
01:48:06.760 --> 01:48:08.760
It's quite troubling.

2639
01:48:08.760 --> 01:48:12.760
And I think that conversation skills and courage,

2640
01:48:12.760 --> 01:48:14.760
listen, everything that we've talked about,

2641
01:48:14.760 --> 01:48:16.760
choosing good topics, shifting in new topics

2642
01:48:16.760 --> 01:48:18.760
when they get boring, asking good questions,

2643
01:48:18.760 --> 01:48:22.760
asking follow-up questions, finding moments of levity,

2644
01:48:22.760 --> 01:48:25.760
apologizing, listening, all of these things

2645
01:48:25.760 --> 01:48:29.760
take a surprising amount of courage and confidence.

2646
01:48:29.760 --> 01:48:31.760
And it feels like this thing for men

2647
01:48:31.760 --> 01:48:34.760
who have been socialized to believe that vulnerability

2648
01:48:34.760 --> 01:48:36.760
is a sign of weakness.

2649
01:48:36.760 --> 01:48:39.760
It feels like it almost takes too much courage

2650
01:48:39.760 --> 01:48:43.760
for them to make that leap in their relationships.

2651
01:48:43.760 --> 01:48:45.760
And it's quite problematic.

2652
01:48:45.760 --> 01:48:48.760
Men are 400% more likely to say they have no one

2653
01:48:48.760 --> 01:48:50.760
to turn to in a time of crisis.

2654
01:48:50.760 --> 01:48:52.760
Half of men say they are unsatisfied

2655
01:48:52.760 --> 01:48:54.760
with their friendships.

2656
01:48:54.760 --> 01:48:56.760
Men's number of close friends has dropped

2657
01:48:56.760 --> 01:49:00.760
by 30% to 40% since 1990.

2658
01:49:00.760 --> 01:49:02.760
Men come to rely on their

2659
01:49:02.760 --> 01:49:04.760
heterosexual relationships, come to rely on their partner

2660
01:49:04.760 --> 01:49:07.760
for emotional fulfillment and support.

2661
01:49:07.760 --> 01:49:08.760
Women do not.

2662
01:49:08.760 --> 01:49:11.760
So when, you know, woman, this female spouse dies,

2663
01:49:11.760 --> 01:49:13.760
men have to remarry to fill that void.

2664
01:49:13.760 --> 01:49:15.760
They don't have that friendship.

2665
01:49:15.760 --> 01:49:21.760
When a husband dies, the woman has her friends to support her.

2666
01:49:21.760 --> 01:49:23.760
So how can I make more friends as a man?

2667
01:49:23.760 --> 01:49:26.760
I think it's really one conversation at a time

2668
01:49:26.760 --> 01:49:29.760
the power you have as an individual

2669
01:49:29.760 --> 01:49:31.760
is signaling to other men.

2670
01:49:31.760 --> 01:49:33.760
Hey, let's take this courageous leap.

2671
01:49:33.760 --> 01:49:35.760
Like, here's a question you can ask.

2672
01:49:35.760 --> 01:49:38.760
What have you been struggling with recently?

2673
01:49:38.760 --> 01:49:40.760
What do you hope to achieve?

2674
01:49:40.760 --> 01:49:42.760
But what kind of thing have you been thinking about

2675
01:49:42.760 --> 01:49:44.760
that you haven't shared with anyone before?

2676
01:49:44.760 --> 01:49:46.760
And in the study you did, what kind...

2677
01:49:46.760 --> 01:49:48.760
Give me a flavor of how the conversation sounded.

2678
01:49:48.760 --> 01:49:50.760
Hey, man, you want to get...

2679
01:49:50.760 --> 01:49:52.760
Oh, this hot dog is gross.

2680
01:49:52.760 --> 01:49:55.760
Yeah, it's really gross.

2681
01:49:55.760 --> 01:49:57.760
Yeah, this is...

2682
01:49:57.760 --> 01:49:59.760
Yeah, I don't like the food.

2683
01:49:59.760 --> 01:50:03.760
I'm going to go take a nap.

2684
01:50:03.760 --> 01:50:07.760
It's like narrating what's happening around you.

2685
01:50:07.760 --> 01:50:11.760
Sometimes they'd be like, where are you from?

2686
01:50:11.760 --> 01:50:12.760
Or...

2687
01:50:12.760 --> 01:50:14.760
And then that would turn into a narration?

2688
01:50:14.760 --> 01:50:15.760
Yeah.

2689
01:50:15.760 --> 01:50:18.760
Oh, I love Chicago. It has that theme.

2690
01:50:18.760 --> 01:50:21.760
I hate the Chicago Bears.

2691
01:50:21.760 --> 01:50:23.760
Oh, yeah, remember when so and so played there?

2692
01:50:23.760 --> 01:50:25.760
Then you've devolved into this sports talk,

2693
01:50:25.760 --> 01:50:28.760
which can be important, but can you move a step beyond

2694
01:50:28.760 --> 01:50:32.760
and be like, did you ever feel vulnerable

2695
01:50:32.760 --> 01:50:34.760
when you played football in high school?

2696
01:50:34.760 --> 01:50:36.760
Right? Like, or like, what did you struggle with

2697
01:50:36.760 --> 01:50:38.760
in terms of sports?

2698
01:50:38.760 --> 01:50:40.760
Why didn't you play college sports?

2699
01:50:40.760 --> 01:50:41.760
Whatever.

2700
01:50:41.760 --> 01:50:44.760
Whatever the topic is, you can take that next step

2701
01:50:44.760 --> 01:50:49.760
to make it actually personal and vulnerable and interesting

2702
01:50:49.760 --> 01:50:53.760
so that you walk away one step closer to having an actual friend

2703
01:50:53.760 --> 01:50:57.760
and not just someone you say things you know too.

2704
01:50:57.760 --> 01:51:01.760
I did a talk in Canary Wharf for a couple of weeks.

2705
01:51:01.760 --> 01:51:02.760
A couple of...

2706
01:51:02.760 --> 01:51:04.760
Maybe a year ago, and a kid stood up in the front row.

2707
01:51:04.760 --> 01:51:06.760
You've got a bare mind. There's 500 young...

2708
01:51:06.760 --> 01:51:09.760
I say young, I mean, probably 21.

2709
01:51:09.760 --> 01:51:11.760
They were working at this part of London called Canary Wharf

2710
01:51:11.760 --> 01:51:13.760
where you kind of your first job after university.

2711
01:51:13.760 --> 01:51:16.760
500 people in this room, kids stands up front row, says,

2712
01:51:16.760 --> 01:51:22.760
Hi, my question is, I want to know how to make friends.

2713
01:51:22.760 --> 01:51:27.760
And it was shocking to me because I could see 499 of his peers

2714
01:51:27.760 --> 01:51:28.760
stood next to him.

2715
01:51:28.760 --> 01:51:30.760
But he had the guts to stand up in front of all these people

2716
01:51:30.760 --> 01:51:33.760
and say, Hi, Steve, my question is, how do you make friends?

2717
01:51:33.760 --> 01:51:35.760
It's a fabulous question, isn't it?

2718
01:51:35.760 --> 01:51:37.760
He'd asked you that question.

2719
01:51:37.760 --> 01:51:39.760
He might be listening now.

2720
01:51:39.760 --> 01:51:41.760
Hello, friend.

2721
01:51:41.760 --> 01:51:43.760
It starts with hello.

2722
01:51:43.760 --> 01:51:47.760
And the number of times that I have run conversation exercises

2723
01:51:47.760 --> 01:51:50.760
as part of my class and the students at the end of that very

2724
01:51:50.760 --> 01:51:54.760
first session say, this is the first time I've turned to the person next to me

2725
01:51:54.760 --> 01:51:56.760
and actually talked to them.

2726
01:51:56.760 --> 01:51:58.760
It's like every time I do that first session.

2727
01:51:58.760 --> 01:52:01.760
Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to turn...

2728
01:52:01.760 --> 01:52:04.760
The reason giving us a reason to turn to each other and actually talk,

2729
01:52:04.760 --> 01:52:07.760
get to know my classmates.

2730
01:52:07.760 --> 01:52:12.760
Even that takes tremendous courage, especially if there are norms of not doing...

2731
01:52:12.760 --> 01:52:16.760
of coming in sitting down at a desk or in an auditorium and being on your phone.

2732
01:52:16.760 --> 01:52:19.760
So literally turning to someone next to you and saying,

2733
01:52:19.760 --> 01:52:21.760
Hi, I'm Allison. What's your name?

2734
01:52:21.760 --> 01:52:23.760
Mary from Starting, right?

2735
01:52:23.760 --> 01:52:25.760
God, we didn't do that in the UK.

2736
01:52:25.760 --> 01:52:26.760
It's a creepy behavior.

2737
01:52:26.760 --> 01:52:28.760
It's okay. And you do need to read the room, right?

2738
01:52:28.760 --> 01:52:30.760
Like it's maybe not appropriate in all situations.

2739
01:52:30.760 --> 01:52:32.760
It can be a shame. It depends on the norms.

2740
01:52:32.760 --> 01:52:36.760
Once you are engaged with people, it's all of the talk things.

2741
01:52:36.760 --> 01:52:39.760
What topics will they actually find helpful to them?

2742
01:52:39.760 --> 01:52:41.760
Are you asking questions?

2743
01:52:41.760 --> 01:52:44.760
Are you listening and asking follow-up questions?

2744
01:52:44.760 --> 01:52:48.760
Are you moving beyond just trading things you know?

2745
01:52:48.760 --> 01:52:53.760
Are you learning about each other in a way that feels revealing?

2746
01:52:53.760 --> 01:52:56.760
That's where real relationships come from.

2747
01:52:56.760 --> 01:52:58.760
What are these here?

2748
01:52:58.760 --> 01:52:59.760
Yeah, let's find out.

2749
01:52:59.760 --> 01:53:01.760
This is a list of questions here.

2750
01:53:01.760 --> 01:53:03.760
Oh, this is an exercise that I do.

2751
01:53:03.760 --> 01:53:07.760
This is based on a very well-known exercise called 36 Questions to Fall in Love.

2752
01:53:07.760 --> 01:53:08.760
Oh, I heard about that.

2753
01:53:08.760 --> 01:53:11.760
Yeah, it was phase in the New York Times many years ago.

2754
01:53:11.760 --> 01:53:13.760
It's based on some academic research.

2755
01:53:13.760 --> 01:53:16.760
This is a subset of 10 of those 36 questions.

2756
01:53:16.760 --> 01:53:22.760
An exercise I do in my class called 10 Questions to Fall in Like, instead of Love.

2757
01:53:22.760 --> 01:53:25.760
So if I have some of those 10 questions, they're going to like me.

2758
01:53:25.760 --> 01:53:26.760
Probably, yeah.

2759
01:53:26.760 --> 01:53:29.760
More than if you didn't ask the questions.

2760
01:53:29.760 --> 01:53:34.760
What you want to do is you actually go back and forth and ask each other these questions.

2761
01:53:34.760 --> 01:53:36.760
So the first one is what are you excited about lately?

2762
01:53:36.760 --> 01:53:38.760
Next is what is something you're good at but don't like doing?

2763
01:53:38.760 --> 01:53:40.760
What's something you're bad at but love to do?

2764
01:53:40.760 --> 01:53:42.760
Is there something you'd like to learn more about?

2765
01:53:42.760 --> 01:53:44.760
Is there something you'd like to learn how to do?

2766
01:53:44.760 --> 01:53:46.760
What can we celebrate about you?

2767
01:53:46.760 --> 01:53:48.760
Has someone made you laugh recently?

2768
01:53:48.760 --> 01:53:51.760
What's something cute your kid friend Pat or partner has been doing?

2769
01:53:51.760 --> 01:53:56.760
Did you grow up in a city and have you fallen in love with any new music books, movies, shows lately?

2770
01:53:56.760 --> 01:54:05.760
It's just 10 questions that are of this flavor that many people, but I suspect lots of men, don't ask.

2771
01:54:05.760 --> 01:54:07.760
That are a great starting point.

2772
01:54:07.760 --> 01:54:09.760
It's just the first turn, right?

2773
01:54:09.760 --> 01:54:17.760
You have to actually listen to what the person says and ask follow-up questions to really deepen the conversation and move up that topic pyramid.

2774
01:54:17.760 --> 01:54:19.760
But these are good questions.

2775
01:54:19.760 --> 01:54:22.760
You could prep just one or two of them.

2776
01:54:22.760 --> 01:54:27.760
You could carry two of them in your backpack at all the time as go to topics for people.

2777
01:54:27.760 --> 01:54:31.760
So when this opportunity arises, you could ask them.

2778
01:54:31.760 --> 01:54:32.760
I like the one.

2779
01:54:32.760 --> 01:54:33.760
What are you excited about lately?

2780
01:54:33.760 --> 01:54:36.760
That's my go-to with a lot of people.

2781
01:54:36.760 --> 01:54:39.760
Also, are you obsessed with any shows right now?

2782
01:54:39.760 --> 01:54:40.760
It's a pretty good one too.

2783
01:54:40.760 --> 01:54:46.760
But the key is not just asking that question, but actually asking follow-up questions about why do you connect with that show?

2784
01:54:46.760 --> 01:54:47.760
What do you see in the main character?

2785
01:54:47.760 --> 01:54:50.760
Do you see anything from the main character that you see in yourself?

2786
01:54:50.760 --> 01:54:54.760
You got to get deeper into it.

2787
01:54:54.760 --> 01:55:03.760
The original research with the 36 questions to fall in love suggests that going through these 36 questions makes you like each other a lot.

2788
01:55:03.760 --> 01:55:07.760
And certainly, these 10 questions would help you start.

2789
01:55:07.760 --> 01:55:11.760
If you need the excuse, I would love for your listeners to blame me.

2790
01:55:11.760 --> 01:55:21.760
If they feel nervous to ask questions like this, especially boys or men, say like, I saw this crazy lady on Diary with the EO.

2791
01:55:21.760 --> 01:55:23.760
And she said, I should try asking this question.

2792
01:55:23.760 --> 01:55:25.760
So I'm going to try.

2793
01:55:25.760 --> 01:55:33.760
Even my students at Harvard find that quite helpful to have a scapegoat to point at me and say, my professor made me do this.

2794
01:55:33.760 --> 01:55:37.760
It doesn't matter who makes you do it, whether it's yourself or someone else.

2795
01:55:37.760 --> 01:55:39.760
The fact is that you're doing it.

2796
01:55:39.760 --> 01:55:41.760
And they're going to answer this question.

2797
01:55:41.760 --> 01:55:43.760
And then you can ask a follow-up.

2798
01:55:43.760 --> 01:55:46.760
And it's the beginning of a friendship.

2799
01:55:46.760 --> 01:55:49.760
I did that when I was younger to get the girl I was interested in.

2800
01:55:49.760 --> 01:55:51.760
I'd seen that Ted talk about 36 questions, whatever.

2801
01:55:51.760 --> 01:55:55.760
And I said to her over text messages like, I want to play a game with you.

2802
01:55:55.760 --> 01:55:57.760
Something that I've just watched.

2803
01:55:57.760 --> 01:55:59.760
Are you willing to play it with me?

2804
01:55:59.760 --> 01:56:01.760
She said, yes, I asked these 36 questions.

2805
01:56:01.760 --> 01:56:05.760
And at the end of it, I told her about the research and whatever in a non-creepy way.

2806
01:56:05.760 --> 01:56:07.760
You're a real dork.

2807
01:56:07.760 --> 01:56:09.760
But it did exactly that.

2808
01:56:09.760 --> 01:56:12.760
It taught me that vulnerability is the doorway to connection.

2809
01:56:12.760 --> 01:56:13.760
That's right.

2810
01:56:13.760 --> 01:56:14.760
It's the doorway to connection.

2811
01:56:14.760 --> 01:56:16.760
It's what makes relationships real.

2812
01:56:16.760 --> 01:56:19.760
But without it, you don't have real friendship.

2813
01:56:19.760 --> 01:56:22.760
It's, again, it's consistency of interaction, positivity.

2814
01:56:22.760 --> 01:56:27.760
So you can't be plagued by negativity and fighting and anger.

2815
01:56:27.760 --> 01:56:28.760
But positive.

2816
01:56:28.760 --> 01:56:32.760
It'd be fun being relaxed around each other, having positive experiences.

2817
01:56:32.760 --> 01:56:33.760
But then vulnerability.

2818
01:56:33.760 --> 01:56:39.760
You have to learn these things about each other so that you feel known to each other.

2819
01:56:39.760 --> 01:56:43.760
And feel like they're uniquely sharing stuff with you.

2820
01:56:43.760 --> 01:56:45.760
What about persuasion?

2821
01:56:45.760 --> 01:56:53.760
Have you got any useful, actionable advice for me on how to be a better salesperson?

2822
01:56:53.760 --> 01:56:56.760
And when I say salesperson, I don't mean I'm trying to sell someone a car.

2823
01:56:56.760 --> 01:56:58.760
I mean, trying to convince other people of my ideas.

2824
01:56:58.760 --> 01:57:02.760
So what I do talks in companies oftentimes, someone will stand up and say,

2825
01:57:02.760 --> 01:57:05.760
I'm trying to persuade my boss to do X-innovative thing.

2826
01:57:05.760 --> 01:57:06.760
They won't listen to me.

2827
01:57:06.760 --> 01:57:09.760
Have you got any tips for me to persuade them?

2828
01:57:09.760 --> 01:57:11.760
But also persuasion is at all levels, right?

2829
01:57:11.760 --> 01:57:14.760
Up, down, left, right in organizations and in the world.

2830
01:57:14.760 --> 01:57:18.760
We are persuaded by people we trust and like and admire, right?

2831
01:57:18.760 --> 01:57:22.760
It's people we interact with and over time we bend to their view

2832
01:57:22.760 --> 01:57:24.760
or we are compelled by what they're sharing with us.

2833
01:57:24.760 --> 01:57:28.760
Because we know that they are smart and trustworthy and we like them,

2834
01:57:28.760 --> 01:57:32.760
persuasion doesn't often happen within the bounds of one conversation.

2835
01:57:34.760 --> 01:57:41.760
It could, if you are asking lots of questions and able to sort of sit on the same side of a table together

2836
01:57:41.760 --> 01:57:45.760
and say, hey, let's learn as much as we can about this complicated tangle of yarn,

2837
01:57:45.760 --> 01:57:46.760
whatever that topic is.

2838
01:57:46.760 --> 01:57:50.760
Let's see if we can pull threads together and figure this out.

2839
01:57:50.760 --> 01:57:53.760
We were talking earlier about receptiveness to opposing viewpoints.

2840
01:57:53.760 --> 01:57:59.760
Ironically, if you push yourself to learn as much as you can about the other person

2841
01:57:59.760 --> 01:58:05.760
and validate their views, however you view those views,

2842
01:58:05.760 --> 01:58:09.760
over the longer term, you are more likely to be persuasive

2843
01:58:09.760 --> 01:58:14.760
because they're willing to stay engaged with you and listen to what you have to say in return.

2844
01:58:14.760 --> 01:58:16.760
Because they feel heard and understood.

2845
01:58:16.760 --> 01:58:17.760
Yeah.

2846
01:58:17.760 --> 01:58:20.760
And they trust that you're not a jerk and that you're reasonable and that you're open

2847
01:58:20.760 --> 01:58:22.760
even to their crazy viewpoints.

2848
01:58:22.760 --> 01:58:27.760
I have learned that actually in my relationships that if I make the other person feel heard and understood,

2849
01:58:27.760 --> 01:58:28.760
they validate.

2850
01:58:28.760 --> 01:58:29.760
Validate, you validate.

2851
01:58:29.760 --> 01:58:30.760
Validate, that's a good word.

2852
01:58:30.760 --> 01:58:34.760
Validate, and validation is not equivalent to agreement.

2853
01:58:34.760 --> 01:58:39.760
You can validate, validate, validate, validate, validate, and then go on to vehemently disagree.

2854
01:58:39.760 --> 01:58:40.760
Yeah.

2855
01:58:40.760 --> 01:58:45.760
And probably that disagreement is going to go a lot better after you validated them.

2856
01:58:45.760 --> 01:58:46.760
Quite a bit.

2857
01:58:46.760 --> 01:58:49.760
Like the mistakes I made in maybe past relationships,

2858
01:58:49.760 --> 01:58:51.760
when I didn't validate, it was kind of like a broken record.

2859
01:58:51.760 --> 01:58:54.760
The person continued to make the same point because they didn't feel heard and understood.

2860
01:58:54.760 --> 01:58:55.760
That's right.

2861
01:58:55.760 --> 01:58:59.760
But if I validate, remarkable thing happens where they kind of record player stops

2862
01:58:59.760 --> 01:59:01.760
and then you can make your case.

2863
01:59:01.760 --> 01:59:04.760
It's like a magic trick.

2864
01:59:04.760 --> 01:59:12.760
There's really beautiful research recently that people conflate agreement with listening.

2865
01:59:12.760 --> 01:59:16.760
I only think you're listening when you're agreeing with me.

2866
01:59:16.760 --> 01:59:20.760
And then when you disagree with me, I feel like you're not hearing me.

2867
01:59:20.760 --> 01:59:24.760
You're not listening because obviously what I'm saying is so sensical and so compelling

2868
01:59:24.760 --> 01:59:29.760
that if you're disagreeing with it, you're literally not hearing me.

2869
01:59:29.760 --> 01:59:31.760
Agreement and listening are not the same thing.

2870
01:59:31.760 --> 01:59:34.760
But in our minds, we get mixed up about it.

2871
01:59:34.760 --> 01:59:36.760
Okay, so I should start every sentence with I agree.

2872
01:59:36.760 --> 01:59:37.760
Unif I don't.

2873
01:59:37.760 --> 01:59:38.760
Interesting. I agree.

2874
01:59:38.760 --> 01:59:41.760
I think you should start with, tell me more.

2875
01:59:41.760 --> 01:59:43.760
It makes sense that you feel this way.

2876
01:59:43.760 --> 01:59:46.760
And I'd like to understand how you came to hold this viewpoint.

2877
01:59:46.760 --> 01:59:53.760
I think you should start with validation before you do anything else.

2878
01:59:53.760 --> 01:59:57.760
Yeah, Julian Treasure, what he said to me was that he did two TED talks,

2879
01:59:57.760 --> 01:59:59.760
one of them about speaking, one of them about listening.

2880
01:59:59.760 --> 02:00:02.760
Rough numbers, he said, what about speaking?

2881
02:00:02.760 --> 02:00:04.760
Did 40 million views.

2882
02:00:04.760 --> 02:00:07.760
The one about listening did like a fraction of that.

2883
02:00:07.760 --> 02:00:10.760
Listening is a weird concept to codify.

2884
02:00:10.760 --> 02:00:16.760
And most people don't realize that it's a very, very high level skill.

2885
02:00:16.760 --> 02:00:19.760
It's interesting as to why they don't think it's important.

2886
02:00:19.760 --> 02:00:22.760
I think we think of things active things.

2887
02:00:22.760 --> 02:00:26.760
That's right. And speaking in particular, public speaking is very nerve-wracking.

2888
02:00:26.760 --> 02:00:30.760
It's like an activity that makes people incredibly nervous.

2889
02:00:30.760 --> 02:00:35.760
So any little thing that you could toss my way that might reduce even a sliver of that anxiety

2890
02:00:35.760 --> 02:00:38.760
and make me better at it, people are so hungry for.

2891
02:00:38.760 --> 02:00:40.760
It's sort of like more obvious, right?

2892
02:00:40.760 --> 02:00:42.760
It's more salient, it's more active, like you're saying.

2893
02:00:42.760 --> 02:00:44.760
Listening is easy to say nothing.

2894
02:00:44.760 --> 02:00:45.760
Literally, oh, listening.

2895
02:00:45.760 --> 02:00:47.760
People think that listening is like, oh, just sit there.

2896
02:00:47.760 --> 02:00:48.760
Yeah.

2897
02:00:48.760 --> 02:00:50.760
When, in fact, it's incredibly effortful.

2898
02:00:50.760 --> 02:00:53.760
It's incredibly hard because our minds are built to wander.

2899
02:00:53.760 --> 02:00:57.760
Our minds are wondering at least a 25% of the time, probably a lot more than that.

2900
02:00:57.760 --> 02:01:01.760
And people who are good at it, when we think of people who are charismatic,

2901
02:01:01.760 --> 02:01:06.760
likeable, smart, savvy, it's not because of what they're saying,

2902
02:01:06.760 --> 02:01:11.760
it's because of how they're listening and reacting to what they've heard.

2903
02:01:11.760 --> 02:01:14.760
Mike Baker, who's another spy, who's a spy for 20 years, I think,

2904
02:01:14.760 --> 02:01:18.760
with his CIA in America said to me that much of the job of being a spy

2905
02:01:18.760 --> 02:01:23.760
and persuading and manipulating a target in a foreign land to give over secrets,

2906
02:01:23.760 --> 02:01:27.760
he said to me that he would, for example, let's just say it was an Afghanistan.

2907
02:01:27.760 --> 02:01:29.760
He had land in Afghanistan.

2908
02:01:29.760 --> 02:01:34.760
He would find the taxi driver that was driving the government official who he wanted secrets from.

2909
02:01:34.760 --> 02:01:39.760
And he said to me, he might spend seven weeks in that taxi doing nothing,

2910
02:01:39.760 --> 02:01:41.760
but listening to this guy.

2911
02:01:41.760 --> 02:01:42.760
Yes.

2912
02:01:42.760 --> 02:01:43.760
Listening to the taxi driver.

2913
02:01:43.760 --> 02:01:44.760
Yes.

2914
02:01:44.760 --> 02:01:48.760
Most people in their life have not had someone listen to them uninterrupted for like 10 minutes.

2915
02:01:48.760 --> 02:01:52.760
And when you listen to someone, they will offload about themselves.

2916
02:01:52.760 --> 02:01:54.760
Especially if you ask for a lot of questions.

2917
02:01:54.760 --> 02:01:55.760
Exactly.

2918
02:01:55.760 --> 02:01:57.760
And he asked, so what are you doing when you're listening?

2919
02:01:57.760 --> 02:02:00.760
He was just asking them and just asking a follow-up question

2920
02:02:00.760 --> 02:02:03.760
and they would take me down the path they wanted to take me.

2921
02:02:03.760 --> 02:02:07.760
And by week seven of the eight weeks, I would understand what motivates them.

2922
02:02:07.760 --> 02:02:08.760
It's right.

2923
02:02:08.760 --> 02:02:11.760
And I would have heard in week seven that their son has a knee injury

2924
02:02:11.760 --> 02:02:13.760
and they're very worried about their son's health.

2925
02:02:13.760 --> 02:02:17.760
And then in week eight, when I got in the taxi, I'd make a proposition to them.

2926
02:02:17.760 --> 02:02:19.760
I'd say, I know your son has a bad knee.

2927
02:02:19.760 --> 02:02:21.760
We can take care of him.

2928
02:02:21.760 --> 02:02:24.760
This is exactly the same thing that I was saying about entrepreneurs, right?

2929
02:02:24.760 --> 02:02:28.760
You got to have a relationship, ask questions, questions, questions, questions, questions.

2930
02:02:28.760 --> 02:02:32.760
Before you finally get to the thing where you're like, I have a proposition for you.

2931
02:02:32.760 --> 02:02:33.760
Yeah.

2932
02:02:33.760 --> 02:02:34.760
Right?

2933
02:02:34.760 --> 02:02:36.760
Two things about listening.

2934
02:02:36.760 --> 02:02:38.760
First, I'm not surprised to hear that.

2935
02:02:38.760 --> 02:02:41.760
A taxi driver is a very simple relationship.

2936
02:02:41.760 --> 02:02:45.760
They're serving one very clear purpose in that person's life.

2937
02:02:45.760 --> 02:02:48.760
Interacting with someone like a romantic partner or a work colleague,

2938
02:02:48.760 --> 02:02:50.760
it's called multiplexity.

2939
02:02:50.760 --> 02:02:52.760
They're serving many more roles.

2940
02:02:52.760 --> 02:02:57.760
Your girlfriend is lover, friend, cochef.

2941
02:02:57.760 --> 02:02:59.760
You keep a home together.

2942
02:02:59.760 --> 02:03:02.760
You're coordinating domestic tasks.

2943
02:03:02.760 --> 02:03:04.760
So she's serving all of these purposes.

2944
02:03:04.760 --> 02:03:06.760
That's much more complicated to sort through

2945
02:03:06.760 --> 02:03:10.760
and there will be conflicts of interest between those roles that she plays in your life.

2946
02:03:10.760 --> 02:03:13.760
A way that you would talk to the future mother of your children is quite different

2947
02:03:13.760 --> 02:03:16.760
than how you would talk to your chef.

2948
02:03:16.760 --> 02:03:19.760
And yet she is both of those things to you, right?

2949
02:03:19.760 --> 02:03:23.760
So a taxi driver is easier to talk to in a way, because it's simpler.

2950
02:03:23.760 --> 02:03:25.760
Okay, that's one thing.

2951
02:03:25.760 --> 02:03:29.760
The next thing is about listening as a skill, like the spy is saying.

2952
02:03:29.760 --> 02:03:32.760
I'm not surprised to hear that he's asking follow-up questions.

2953
02:03:32.760 --> 02:03:36.760
Often people think of listening as something that happens silently.

2954
02:03:36.760 --> 02:03:39.760
You're just sitting there absorbing, and that is part of it.

2955
02:03:39.760 --> 02:03:41.760
But listening is actually three parts.

2956
02:03:41.760 --> 02:03:43.760
The first is perception.

2957
02:03:43.760 --> 02:03:44.760
I'm seeing you.

2958
02:03:44.760 --> 02:03:48.760
I'm observing everything that's happening about you during our conversation

2959
02:03:48.760 --> 02:03:50.760
and everything in your environment.

2960
02:03:50.760 --> 02:03:52.760
And then there's auditory cues.

2961
02:03:52.760 --> 02:03:53.760
I'm hearing your voice.

2962
02:03:53.760 --> 02:03:56.760
I'm hearing these acoustic things like, mm-hmm, yeah.

2963
02:03:56.760 --> 02:04:00.760
And the tone of your voice and how quickly you speak.

2964
02:04:00.760 --> 02:04:02.760
So we take in all this stuff.

2965
02:04:02.760 --> 02:04:04.760
Then we process some of it.

2966
02:04:04.760 --> 02:04:08.760
We elaborate on some of the things that you've said, and I think more deeply.

2967
02:04:08.760 --> 02:04:11.760
I can't process all of it, because it's a lot of information.

2968
02:04:11.760 --> 02:04:15.760
What's so unique about conversation is there's a third step

2969
02:04:15.760 --> 02:04:19.760
where I can reflect back to you what I've heard.

2970
02:04:19.760 --> 02:04:23.760
I can say, well, that's so interesting that you met this guy

2971
02:04:23.760 --> 02:04:25.760
who was a spy who wrote in the taxi.

2972
02:04:25.760 --> 02:04:27.760
Can you tell me more about that?

2973
02:04:27.760 --> 02:04:29.760
I've now indicated to you that I was listening,

2974
02:04:29.760 --> 02:04:32.760
that I'm curious, that I want to know more.

2975
02:04:32.760 --> 02:04:36.760
So our instincts are to think about nonverbal cues,

2976
02:04:36.760 --> 02:04:40.760
like smiling and nodding quietly, leaning forward.

2977
02:04:40.760 --> 02:04:44.760
Advanced listening, people who really developed the skill of listening,

2978
02:04:44.760 --> 02:04:47.760
actually use their words to show people that they've heard them.

2979
02:04:47.760 --> 02:04:51.760
By validating, affirming, asking follow-up questions,

2980
02:04:51.760 --> 02:04:54.760
in a group you can paraphrase, and say, like, oh, Stephen.

2981
02:04:54.760 --> 02:04:55.760
Stephen said this.

2982
02:04:55.760 --> 02:04:57.760
If Stephen said this, Cassie said this, then he said this.

2983
02:04:57.760 --> 02:05:00.760
I think together what we're really talking about is status.

2984
02:05:00.760 --> 02:05:04.760
You know that nodding and that mm-hmm stuff is that good or bad?

2985
02:05:04.760 --> 02:05:07.760
It's useful. That's what we think of as active listening,

2986
02:05:07.760 --> 02:05:08.760
which has been studied for decades.

2987
02:05:08.760 --> 02:05:11.760
It doesn't indicate that someone is hearing you at all.

2988
02:05:11.760 --> 02:05:14.760
They could be thinking about their grocery lists and smiling and nodding

2989
02:05:14.760 --> 02:05:15.760
at the same time.

2990
02:05:15.760 --> 02:05:19.760
It is useful, though, to convince your partner that you're listening to them

2991
02:05:19.760 --> 02:05:23.760
and that matters, even if it's not connected to what you're thinking about at all.

2992
02:05:23.760 --> 02:05:28.760
If you were to not smile and nod, the omission of it would be jarring.

2993
02:05:28.760 --> 02:05:30.760
So in that sense, it's like normative.

2994
02:05:30.760 --> 02:05:31.760
You have to do it.

2995
02:05:31.760 --> 02:05:33.760
It's sort of like listening 101.

2996
02:05:33.760 --> 02:05:39.760
But listening to a 1301 is using these verbal cues to show someone you've heard them.

2997
02:05:39.760 --> 02:05:41.760
You understood the objective when we sat down.

2998
02:05:41.760 --> 02:05:45.760
I want to become the best talker conversation list,

2999
02:05:45.760 --> 02:05:47.760
the most persuasive, most like person on earth.

3000
02:05:47.760 --> 02:05:50.760
That was the objective that I gave you the brief.

3001
02:05:50.760 --> 02:05:55.760
Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should have talked about?

3002
02:05:55.760 --> 02:05:57.760
We haven't talked about silence.

3003
02:05:57.760 --> 02:06:02.760
Wrote a chapter about silence that I dropped because I think it's an entirely separate book.

3004
02:06:02.760 --> 02:06:05.760
It's kind of ironic that this book is called Talk

3005
02:06:05.760 --> 02:06:08.760
because we do so much communicating between the lines.

3006
02:06:08.760 --> 02:06:12.760
There's so much information exchanged in just a shared glance.

3007
02:06:12.760 --> 02:06:18.760
When people don't know each other well, long pauses are a sign that the conversation's not going well.

3008
02:06:18.760 --> 02:06:22.760
So if you're on a first date and you feel like the conversation is dying

3009
02:06:22.760 --> 02:06:25.760
and you have the panicky feeling of what do we talk about next,

3010
02:06:25.760 --> 02:06:26.760
that's legit.

3011
02:06:26.760 --> 02:06:27.760
You should not let that happen.

3012
02:06:27.760 --> 02:06:32.760
You should go in with topics prepped or this list of lovely questions

3013
02:06:32.760 --> 02:06:34.760
and ask those questions.

3014
02:06:34.760 --> 02:06:38.760
Later in a relationship, after you've known someone a long time,

3015
02:06:38.760 --> 02:06:41.760
longer pauses are a sign that you're comfortable with each other.

3016
02:06:41.760 --> 02:06:45.760
That you can sit in total silence and companionable silence

3017
02:06:45.760 --> 02:06:48.760
and that it's comfortable and nice.

3018
02:06:48.760 --> 02:06:52.760
So it means different things as relationships evolve.

3019
02:06:52.760 --> 02:06:58.760
There's so much we can do in our conversations that are not about the words we say to each other.

3020
02:06:58.760 --> 02:07:00.760
Two.

3021
02:07:00.760 --> 02:07:02.760
There's another chapter I dropped.

3022
02:07:02.760 --> 02:07:03.760
Do you want to hear about it, Steven?

3023
02:07:03.760 --> 02:07:04.760
Of course I want to hear about it.

3024
02:07:04.760 --> 02:07:06.760
It's about talking in the digital age.

3025
02:07:06.760 --> 02:07:09.760
So this is what I was going to ask you about as well is.

3026
02:07:09.760 --> 02:07:14.760
Now we have large language models which are writing lots of AI slop for us.

3027
02:07:14.760 --> 02:07:15.760
Yes.

3028
02:07:15.760 --> 02:07:20.760
And if you log into social media, even email, Slack channel, sometimes in WhatsApp,

3029
02:07:20.760 --> 02:07:23.760
I look at the messages that I'll take a responsibility as well.

3030
02:07:23.760 --> 02:07:26.760
Sometimes that I'm sending, sometimes that I'm receiving.

3031
02:07:26.760 --> 02:07:38.760
And because of AI, they're getting increasingly less soulful.

3032
02:07:39.760 --> 02:07:45.760
When I scroll certain social media platforms, which I shout name,

3033
02:07:45.760 --> 02:07:48.760
I feel disconnected from people now.

3034
02:07:48.760 --> 02:07:49.760
Yes.

3035
02:07:49.760 --> 02:07:52.760
Because my comments are all like AI slop stuff with a big M-dash.

3036
02:07:52.760 --> 02:07:55.760
Oh my god, this is so amazing, Steven.

3037
02:07:55.760 --> 02:08:00.760
And you know that no human rights like that in a digital age in an AI world.

3038
02:08:00.760 --> 02:08:04.760
Do we need to start communicating differently?

3039
02:08:04.760 --> 02:08:09.760
Can I start doing intentional spelling mistakes?

3040
02:08:09.760 --> 02:08:10.760
I love that.

3041
02:08:10.760 --> 02:08:15.760
If you go on my LinkedIn, you'll notice that I have totally disregarded grammar.

3042
02:08:15.760 --> 02:08:16.760
Okay.

3043
02:08:16.760 --> 02:08:19.760
Let me start by telling you about an exercise that I do in my class.

3044
02:08:19.760 --> 02:08:21.760
I think it'll be thought provoking for you.

3045
02:08:21.760 --> 02:08:25.760
So your question is about the content of what we type to each other.

3046
02:08:25.760 --> 02:08:31.760
It's a text-based communication, whether it's on social media or over text or over email.

3047
02:08:31.760 --> 02:08:38.760
And there are clear things that we should do to make our text-based communication better,

3048
02:08:38.760 --> 02:08:43.760
mostly make it shorter emails, shorter use headings, use bullet points,

3049
02:08:43.760 --> 02:08:47.760
get to the point, think about what other people need, only give them that.

3050
02:08:47.760 --> 02:08:48.760
Okay.

3051
02:08:48.760 --> 02:08:54.760
But I think more broadly, what is quite thought provoking is to think about how your life proceeds these days,

3052
02:08:54.760 --> 02:08:56.760
your conversational life unfolds.

3053
02:08:56.760 --> 02:09:01.760
So in my class, I ask my students to do a communication audit of like 20 to 30 minutes in their life,

3054
02:09:01.760 --> 02:09:11.760
where you transcribe every incoming and outgoing message across all digital and face-to-face modalities.

3055
02:09:11.760 --> 02:09:16.760
So your DMs, your emails, your texts, your phone calls, your Zoom calls,

3056
02:09:16.760 --> 02:09:20.760
your face-to-face interactions, all of it.

3057
02:09:20.760 --> 02:09:21.760
Can you imagine?

3058
02:09:21.760 --> 02:09:22.760
No.

3059
02:09:22.760 --> 02:09:24.760
It's quite hard.

3060
02:09:24.760 --> 02:09:25.760
Yeah.

3061
02:09:25.760 --> 02:09:31.760
It's the sort of top-line thing you notice is that it's so much.

3062
02:09:31.760 --> 02:09:36.760
It's just a crazy amount of communication that's happening in our lives now.

3063
02:09:36.760 --> 02:09:42.760
When only maybe 20 years ago, it was like 10% of what it is now.

3064
02:09:42.760 --> 02:09:45.760
I think we all feel that sort of overwhelm.

3065
02:09:45.760 --> 02:09:50.760
Not only is it a lot, we're constantly sort of toggling and adjusting

3066
02:09:50.760 --> 02:09:53.760
from one mode of communication to the next.

3067
02:09:53.760 --> 02:09:58.760
So I'm like talking to you while I'm like texting under the table while I hear my emails going

3068
02:09:58.760 --> 02:10:01.760
and knowing that my DMs are blowing up.

3069
02:10:01.760 --> 02:10:05.760
That mental adjustment is really exhausting.

3070
02:10:05.760 --> 02:10:10.760
And across each of those modes, we're like engaging in different ideas and different threads,

3071
02:10:10.760 --> 02:10:13.760
different topics with different people.

3072
02:10:13.760 --> 02:10:19.760
And so you start to realize how braided and overlapping all of these things are.

3073
02:10:19.760 --> 02:10:23.760
It's quite hard to keep it all straight and to make all of these decisions about like,

3074
02:10:23.760 --> 02:10:27.760
well, who should I be responding to?

3075
02:10:27.760 --> 02:10:31.760
We then default to the people who are right in front of us.

3076
02:10:31.760 --> 02:10:35.760
But any other mode of communication where like, well, who should come first?

3077
02:10:35.760 --> 02:10:37.760
Who gets my attention first?

3078
02:10:37.760 --> 02:10:42.760
An attention is love, right? Like, who gets my love, essentially?

3079
02:10:42.760 --> 02:10:47.760
The thing that my students note about this exercise, which is completely mind-blowing

3080
02:10:47.760 --> 02:10:54.760
and I would recommend that anybody try it, is that only face-to-face conversations feel real

3081
02:10:54.760 --> 02:10:57.760
in retrospect and while they're happening.

3082
02:10:57.760 --> 02:10:58.760
Yeah.

3083
02:10:58.760 --> 02:11:00.760
Now, that doesn't mean that the other ones aren't important.

3084
02:11:00.760 --> 02:11:04.760
Of course, email is so important for transactional information exchange.

3085
02:11:04.760 --> 02:11:08.760
But it's not real. It's not what the human brain was built to do.

3086
02:11:08.760 --> 02:11:10.760
Our brains evolved to do this.

3087
02:11:10.760 --> 02:11:15.760
It's why I prefer doing an interview like this in person than on Zoom.

3088
02:11:15.760 --> 02:11:18.760
Because it's real. And we're going to have, it's so engaging

3089
02:11:18.760 --> 02:11:21.760
and we're going to have a real memory of it later.

3090
02:11:21.760 --> 02:11:23.760
And that memory might be sort of vague.

3091
02:11:23.760 --> 02:11:27.760
You'll be like, oh, I knew this like, you know, middle-aged white woman with brown hair.

3092
02:11:27.760 --> 02:11:29.760
She had a lot of energy, right?

3093
02:11:29.760 --> 02:11:31.760
Like, that might be the extent of what you remember.

3094
02:11:31.760 --> 02:11:35.760
But it was real and we can hold that memory.

3095
02:11:35.760 --> 02:11:41.760
And I think what I find so troubling, there's a lot I find troubling.

3096
02:11:41.760 --> 02:11:49.760
But this, our conversational lives have become very unreal.

3097
02:11:49.760 --> 02:11:56.760
And that's why we feel so disconnected and lonely.

3098
02:11:56.760 --> 02:11:59.760
And that loneliness is just outrageously high.

3099
02:11:59.760 --> 02:12:04.760
We're not having real interactions and real relationships.

3100
02:12:04.760 --> 02:12:09.760
Even having this device here, by the way, is it is a portal to another place.

3101
02:12:09.760 --> 02:12:16.760
So devices replace our conversations because we're on here instead of engaging.

3102
02:12:16.760 --> 02:12:18.760
They also disrupt it.

3103
02:12:18.760 --> 02:12:22.760
So if it's on a table in front of you or you hear it buzzing or dinging in the background,

3104
02:12:22.760 --> 02:12:27.760
it distracts your attention away from having a real engaged interaction.

3105
02:12:27.760 --> 02:12:30.760
Do you have any advice for anybody in a world of AI

3106
02:12:30.760 --> 02:12:34.760
where it's going to be really easy to make our communications generatively

3107
02:12:34.760 --> 02:12:37.760
using chat GPT or whatever else?

3108
02:12:37.760 --> 02:12:43.760
I just had just noticed that what I started, what I've started to discount.

3109
02:12:43.760 --> 02:12:47.760
And there's certain, there was, there's certain team members that I have

3110
02:12:47.760 --> 02:12:50.760
that have really lent into the use of AI for all of their columns.

3111
02:12:50.760 --> 02:12:53.760
And I noticed myself ignoring them.

3112
02:12:53.760 --> 02:12:54.760
Yeah.

3113
02:12:54.760 --> 02:12:59.760
Because when they sent me an email report of something that happened in one particular scenario,

3114
02:12:59.760 --> 02:13:02.760
every email report I knew was written by AI.

3115
02:13:02.760 --> 02:13:05.760
So I didn't think it was worth reading because I actually want to hear from them.

3116
02:13:05.760 --> 02:13:06.760
Yeah.

3117
02:13:06.760 --> 02:13:07.760
I trusted them in their opinion.

3118
02:13:07.760 --> 02:13:10.760
My relationship is to their experience and their knowledge.

3119
02:13:10.760 --> 02:13:13.760
And if I, when I realized that it was all just AI because of the formatting of it,

3120
02:13:13.760 --> 02:13:15.760
I started ignoring it.

3121
02:13:15.760 --> 02:13:16.760
They're three or four weeks goes past.

3122
02:13:16.760 --> 02:13:17.760
And I thought, you know, I should tell them.

3123
02:13:17.760 --> 02:13:19.760
Yeah, they should know.

3124
02:13:19.760 --> 02:13:20.760
So I went and had a conversation with them.

3125
02:13:20.760 --> 02:13:22.760
I said, this is just a perception thing.

3126
02:13:22.760 --> 02:13:25.760
But I've noticed myself now not paying the same attention I used to

3127
02:13:25.760 --> 02:13:27.760
because I want to know what you think.

3128
02:13:27.760 --> 02:13:28.760
Yeah.

3129
02:13:28.760 --> 02:13:31.760
And because it feels like I'm speaking to chat GPT.

3130
02:13:31.760 --> 02:13:32.760
What's there come back to that?

3131
02:13:32.760 --> 02:13:35.760
They were really, they were really thankful and they completely changed.

3132
02:13:35.760 --> 02:13:36.760
And it completely immediately.

3133
02:13:36.760 --> 02:13:40.760
Even though I now know they're still using, it's so crazy because I know they're still using it.

3134
02:13:40.760 --> 02:13:44.760
They've brought this bot basically for this particular part of feedback,

3135
02:13:44.760 --> 02:13:48.760
which they're using.

3136
02:13:48.760 --> 02:13:52.760
All they've done is changed the prompt into their bot to make it sound a little bit more human.

3137
02:13:52.760 --> 02:13:53.760
Yeah, yeah.

3138
02:13:53.760 --> 02:13:55.760
And I'm now reading it again because I can't tell the difference.

3139
02:13:55.760 --> 02:13:56.760
Oh my goodness.

3140
02:13:56.760 --> 02:13:57.760
They were really thankful.

3141
02:13:57.760 --> 02:13:58.760
They were really thankful.

3142
02:13:58.760 --> 02:13:59.760
I think there's two things going on there.

3143
02:13:59.760 --> 02:14:01.760
One, you are invested in people.

3144
02:14:01.760 --> 02:14:02.760
That's what we get invested in.

3145
02:14:02.760 --> 02:14:04.760
We care about people and relationships.

3146
02:14:04.760 --> 02:14:09.760
As soon as you feel like you're not getting them and you're getting some weird proxy of them,

3147
02:14:09.760 --> 02:14:11.760
we're less motivated to engage with it.

3148
02:14:11.760 --> 02:14:13.760
That's going to be, that's totally normal.

3149
02:14:13.760 --> 02:14:14.760
I'll tell you the context.

3150
02:14:14.760 --> 02:14:16.760
It was a, it's interview feedback.

3151
02:14:16.760 --> 02:14:17.760
So they're interviewing someone.

3152
02:14:17.760 --> 02:14:21.760
And then the feedback they're sending me is was written by AI.

3153
02:14:21.760 --> 02:14:22.760
Yeah.

3154
02:14:22.760 --> 02:14:26.760
They trust their experience and their intuition and their ability just to feel someone.

3155
02:14:26.760 --> 02:14:29.760
I don't know if I trust chat GBT to interview my candidates.

3156
02:14:29.760 --> 02:14:30.760
Yeah.

3157
02:14:30.760 --> 02:14:34.760
So I just wanted to feel like I was getting it from that person.

3158
02:14:34.760 --> 02:14:37.760
So there's this relational replacement thing where you're like,

3159
02:14:37.760 --> 02:14:38.760
and you just want to disengage.

3160
02:14:38.760 --> 02:14:41.760
There's this other piece that's sort of more meta,

3161
02:14:41.760 --> 02:14:46.760
which is that LLM sort of push us our communications reversion to the mean,

3162
02:14:46.760 --> 02:14:48.760
like a right to the middle.

3163
02:14:48.760 --> 02:14:53.760
So it literally is taking at the personality and weirdness and creativity out of it.

3164
02:14:53.760 --> 02:14:54.760
Can I tell you?

3165
02:14:54.760 --> 02:14:56.760
I did an experiment this semester in my class.

3166
02:14:56.760 --> 02:15:01.760
I had my students do office hours with an AI version of me.

3167
02:15:01.760 --> 02:15:02.760
Okay.

3168
02:15:02.760 --> 02:15:03.760
Okay.

3169
02:15:03.760 --> 02:15:04.760
Okay.

3170
02:15:04.760 --> 02:15:06.760
Well,

3171
02:15:06.760 --> 02:15:07.760
That's a risky.

3172
02:15:07.760 --> 02:15:08.760
That's a risky.

3173
02:15:08.760 --> 02:15:11.760
The reason I actually think she is better than me in some ways.

3174
02:15:11.760 --> 02:15:14.760
I want to preface this by saying I think chat bots are,

3175
02:15:14.760 --> 02:15:16.760
most chat bots are deeply problematic.

3176
02:15:16.760 --> 02:15:20.760
But this one, its goal is not to convince users to talk more with her.

3177
02:15:20.760 --> 02:15:25.760
It's to sort of coach them on their questions related to conversations

3178
02:15:25.760 --> 02:15:29.760
so that they can prep and perform better in their real conversations with humans.

3179
02:15:29.760 --> 02:15:30.760
Okay.

3180
02:15:30.760 --> 02:15:32.760
I do think she's better than me in many ways.

3181
02:15:32.760 --> 02:15:34.760
Most importantly, she's available.

3182
02:15:34.760 --> 02:15:37.760
She's available all the time whenever they need her.

3183
02:15:37.760 --> 02:15:39.760
And I'm a nightmare to schedule with.

3184
02:15:39.760 --> 02:15:41.760
Number two, she's not grading them.

3185
02:15:41.760 --> 02:15:44.760
So anytime a student comes to me and has office hours,

3186
02:15:44.760 --> 02:15:48.760
there's this conflict of interest where they're worried.

3187
02:15:48.760 --> 02:15:49.760
They should be.

3188
02:15:49.760 --> 02:15:50.760
I am grading them.

3189
02:15:50.760 --> 02:15:51.760
Yeah.

3190
02:15:51.760 --> 02:15:52.760
Like I do care about the most people.

3191
02:15:52.760 --> 02:15:55.760
And also I am going to grade them at the end of the semester.

3192
02:15:55.760 --> 02:15:58.760
That's a weird, that makes a relationship quite weird.

3193
02:15:58.760 --> 02:15:59.760
So they don't ask dumb questions.

3194
02:15:59.760 --> 02:16:02.760
And I have to question their motives because I'm like,

3195
02:16:02.760 --> 02:16:04.760
are you here because you're actually interested in what you're asking me

3196
02:16:04.760 --> 02:16:07.760
or because you're trying to impress me and get a better grade.

3197
02:16:07.760 --> 02:16:08.760
Right?

3198
02:16:08.760 --> 02:16:09.760
That's a weird context.

3199
02:16:09.760 --> 02:16:12.760
So she's less judgmental in a way, I guess.

3200
02:16:12.760 --> 02:16:15.760
The other thing that she can do is what you were saying,

3201
02:16:15.760 --> 02:16:20.760
which is after they talk with her and get advice about their conversations,

3202
02:16:20.760 --> 02:16:23.760
she gives them feedback about how the conversation went.

3203
02:16:23.760 --> 02:16:25.760
She says, here are the topics we covered.

3204
02:16:25.760 --> 02:16:27.760
Here's how many questions you asked.

3205
02:16:27.760 --> 02:16:28.760
Here were the moments of levity.

3206
02:16:28.760 --> 02:16:31.760
Here's how while you were listening and doing kindness.

3207
02:16:31.760 --> 02:16:35.760
Even if I as a human can think those things,

3208
02:16:35.760 --> 02:16:39.760
I do not have the bandwidth or time to craft the feedback to the students,

3209
02:16:39.760 --> 02:16:42.760
to 200 students at once.

3210
02:16:42.760 --> 02:16:48.760
So in short, I feel incredibly torn about all things AI.

3211
02:16:48.760 --> 02:16:54.760
I think there are use cases like this that are really amazing and intriguing

3212
02:16:54.760 --> 02:16:57.760
and make things easier and more efficient.

3213
02:16:57.760 --> 02:17:01.760
And as a manager, policy maker, that's why it's so troubling.

3214
02:17:01.760 --> 02:17:04.760
Because as long as things continue to,

3215
02:17:04.760 --> 02:17:08.760
AI continues to make individuals lives easier and more convenient.

3216
02:17:08.760 --> 02:17:15.760
I don't know how we can stop and regulate it.

3217
02:17:15.760 --> 02:17:19.760
I think as well that in a world of AI and robots,

3218
02:17:19.760 --> 02:17:24.760
it's going to be very tempting to overlook the most human skills.

3219
02:17:24.760 --> 02:17:25.760
Yes.

3220
02:17:25.760 --> 02:17:31.760
And those that don't, those that fight against the ease of allowing

3221
02:17:31.760 --> 02:17:35.760
a chatbot to speak for you will develop a superpower,

3222
02:17:35.760 --> 02:17:38.760
what that's going to be in even more scarce in the future,

3223
02:17:38.760 --> 02:17:40.760
which is all the things you said in this framework,

3224
02:17:40.760 --> 02:17:43.760
like really understanding how to be with a person IRL

3225
02:17:43.760 --> 02:17:46.760
and have great conversations, I think is going to be such a superpower.

3226
02:17:46.760 --> 02:17:52.760
It is talk is the advantage that humans have over AI.

3227
02:17:52.760 --> 02:17:56.760
It has always been true that conversation is the skill

3228
02:17:56.760 --> 02:18:00.760
that matters most for achieving everything you want in life.

3229
02:18:01.760 --> 02:18:07.760
But it just seems more obvious now that we need to lean into that even more.

3230
02:18:07.760 --> 02:18:09.760
The irreplaceably human stuff.

3231
02:18:09.760 --> 02:18:10.760
Correct.

3232
02:18:10.760 --> 02:18:14.760
And some of it, I don't even know if irreplaceable is the right word.

3233
02:18:14.760 --> 02:18:17.760
It's like the things that no matter what the future holds for us,

3234
02:18:17.760 --> 02:18:19.760
the things that are still going to matter.

3235
02:18:19.760 --> 02:18:22.760
I'll put all my chips on a bet.

3236
02:18:22.760 --> 02:18:24.760
When I think about what I need to be teaching my kids,

3237
02:18:24.760 --> 02:18:27.760
I can imagine worlds where work is no longer a thing

3238
02:18:27.760 --> 02:18:30.760
and what an innovation is no longer a thing.

3239
02:18:30.760 --> 02:18:34.760
But I cannot imagine a world where they're not going to need

3240
02:18:34.760 --> 02:18:38.760
to connect with other human beings and talk to them well and joyfully

3241
02:18:38.760 --> 02:18:41.760
and with respect in real life.

3242
02:18:41.760 --> 02:18:42.760
In real life.

3243
02:18:42.760 --> 02:18:43.760
Yeah.

3244
02:18:43.760 --> 02:18:46.760
I think we were talking about boomers early around.

3245
02:18:46.760 --> 02:18:51.760
I think boomers are much better conversation lists than genziers.

3246
02:18:51.760 --> 02:18:53.760
Because they have more reps.

3247
02:18:53.760 --> 02:18:56.760
They have more repetitions and they grip in the real world

3248
02:18:56.760 --> 02:18:58.760
when they were forceative and at the skills.

3249
02:18:58.760 --> 02:18:59.760
That's right.

3250
02:18:59.760 --> 02:19:02.760
It's part of the reason that I think we see a lot of sort of like misunderstanding

3251
02:19:02.760 --> 02:19:05.760
and judgment between the generations is that right now the people

3252
02:19:05.760 --> 02:19:09.760
who are alive have experienced very, very different realities.

3253
02:19:09.760 --> 02:19:14.760
And the skills that you do have developed in those different realities

3254
02:19:14.760 --> 02:19:15.760
are quite different.

3255
02:19:15.760 --> 02:19:20.760
And it means that we actually are more different from each other

3256
02:19:20.760 --> 02:19:22.760
across the generations.

3257
02:19:22.760 --> 02:19:25.760
And on the front of your book talk it says the science of conversation

3258
02:19:25.760 --> 02:19:27.760
and the art of being ourselves.

3259
02:19:27.760 --> 02:19:32.760
Do you think we should shut to work as our authentic selves?

3260
02:19:32.760 --> 02:19:35.760
There's a great, what a great question.

3261
02:19:35.760 --> 02:19:38.760
There's a great phrase by a scholar named Juliana Pillamer,

3262
02:19:38.760 --> 02:19:42.760
who's at NYU called strategic authenticity.

3263
02:19:42.760 --> 02:19:45.760
Okay.

3264
02:19:45.760 --> 02:19:49.760
If you were to bring your full self to work,

3265
02:19:49.760 --> 02:19:56.760
it would be a nightmare for you and everyone around you.

3266
02:19:56.760 --> 02:19:57.760
Tell me about it.

3267
02:19:57.760 --> 02:20:00.760
At the beginning of my class I have people do this thing that's like,

3268
02:20:00.760 --> 02:20:03.760
okay, identify your conversation types.

3269
02:20:03.760 --> 02:20:07.760
And there's like 13 good types and 13 bad types.

3270
02:20:07.760 --> 02:20:11.760
You know, there's like the Asker and the curious cat and the chatterbox

3271
02:20:11.760 --> 02:20:12.760
and whatever.

3272
02:20:12.760 --> 02:20:16.760
The whole thing is a straw man because we're all, all of those things.

3273
02:20:16.760 --> 02:20:20.760
We all have habits that are good, sometimes,

3274
02:20:20.760 --> 02:20:23.760
and habits that are bad sometimes.

3275
02:20:23.760 --> 02:20:26.760
And our behavior shifts radically from one situation to the next.

3276
02:20:26.760 --> 02:20:30.760
I'm not going to behave the same way at a Bachelorette party in Vegas

3277
02:20:30.760 --> 02:20:33.760
as I do when I'm doing bath time with my children.

3278
02:20:33.760 --> 02:20:38.760
If you did, it would be insane and it wouldn't serve anybody's goals.

3279
02:20:38.760 --> 02:20:41.760
What happens in Vegas?

3280
02:20:41.760 --> 02:20:44.760
Hot pink wigs, apparently, and chip and dill.

3281
02:20:44.760 --> 02:20:53.760
The point is that our behavior shifts from one conversation to the next,

3282
02:20:53.760 --> 02:20:56.760
even from one moment to the next in every conversation.

3283
02:20:56.760 --> 02:20:57.760
And it should.

3284
02:20:57.760 --> 02:21:01.760
That's what it means to read the room and read the context in a gym.

3285
02:21:01.760 --> 02:21:03.760
My husband has a saying, athletes adjust.

3286
02:21:03.760 --> 02:21:04.760
And it's exactly right.

3287
02:21:04.760 --> 02:21:06.760
Good conversationalists adjust.

3288
02:21:06.760 --> 02:21:08.760
So if you in your mind are like,

3289
02:21:08.760 --> 02:21:09.760
this is who I am.

3290
02:21:09.760 --> 02:21:14.760
And I'm going to bring that whole self to every space that I inhabit.

3291
02:21:14.760 --> 02:21:16.760
It's not going to go well.

3292
02:21:16.760 --> 02:21:18.760
Strategic authenticity.

3293
02:21:18.760 --> 02:21:19.760
Yeah.

3294
02:21:19.760 --> 02:21:22.760
Bring the things that make the values that make you you.

3295
02:21:22.760 --> 02:21:23.760
Bring them to work.

3296
02:21:23.760 --> 02:21:28.760
It's the things that you care about and are uncompromising about.

3297
02:21:28.760 --> 02:21:32.760
But you can adjust your behavior to fit the needs of the situation.

3298
02:21:32.760 --> 02:21:34.760
Do you pretend and act?

3299
02:21:34.760 --> 02:21:36.760
No, this is a great question.

3300
02:21:36.760 --> 02:21:44.760
We like to debate this in my class about authenticity, manipulation,

3301
02:21:44.760 --> 02:21:48.760
what is real, what's sincere, I guess sincerity might be the right word to use.

3302
02:21:48.760 --> 02:21:50.760
Let's use question asking as an example.

3303
02:21:50.760 --> 02:21:53.760
Imagine that we get to a point in the interview where you're like,

3304
02:21:53.760 --> 02:21:56.760
oh, I think I need to ask a question right now.

3305
02:21:56.760 --> 02:21:59.760
You might not be dying to hear the answer to it,

3306
02:21:59.760 --> 02:22:04.760
but you know as a good interviewer that you need to ask that question in that moment.

3307
02:22:04.760 --> 02:22:11.760
That doesn't mean that you are evil, unkind, insincere, manipulative.

3308
02:22:11.760 --> 02:22:15.760
It means that you're trying to live up to the goal of the conversation.

3309
02:22:15.760 --> 02:22:19.760
And trying to live up to the goal of, hey, we're going to learn as much as we can from each other.

3310
02:22:19.760 --> 02:22:22.760
I want to show you respect and interest in your perspective.

3311
02:22:22.760 --> 02:22:27.760
I want to have a good conversation that itself lives up to who you are.

3312
02:22:27.760 --> 02:22:31.760
Like that's the whole point of being here.

3313
02:22:31.760 --> 02:22:32.760
You know what I mean?

3314
02:22:32.760 --> 02:22:35.760
So these pleading moments of like insincereity,

3315
02:22:35.760 --> 02:22:39.760
I think people over focus on that as a signal of inauthenticity.

3316
02:22:39.760 --> 02:22:40.760
Okay, fine.

3317
02:22:40.760 --> 02:22:43.760
If it's tied to a more overarching goal of like,

3318
02:22:43.760 --> 02:22:46.760
I want to be a good human being and a good conversationalist,

3319
02:22:46.760 --> 02:22:49.760
often because I want to serve the needs of others.

3320
02:22:49.760 --> 02:22:55.760
So you can be slightly insincere in the pursuit of sincerity.

3321
02:22:55.760 --> 02:23:01.760
And those moments of insincereity are gone in an instant.

3322
02:23:01.760 --> 02:23:04.760
As soon as I ask this question that maybe I'm not dying to hear,

3323
02:23:04.760 --> 02:23:06.760
how was your weekend?

3324
02:23:06.760 --> 02:23:08.760
You're going to give me an answer.

3325
02:23:08.760 --> 02:23:11.760
And I'm sincerely going to search for something in there that I am interested in.

3326
02:23:11.760 --> 02:23:13.760
And I'm going to ask a follow-up question and make it better.

3327
02:23:13.760 --> 02:23:14.760
Okay.

3328
02:23:14.760 --> 02:23:16.760
So when I met you, you did ask me how I was doing.

3329
02:23:16.760 --> 02:23:17.760
What's that?

3330
02:23:17.760 --> 02:23:21.760
I, the question I've been dying to ask you is about children.

3331
02:23:21.760 --> 02:23:24.760
Me and my girlfriend are trying at the moment.

3332
02:23:24.760 --> 02:23:25.760
So hopefully...

3333
02:23:25.760 --> 02:23:26.760
David?

3334
02:23:26.760 --> 02:23:27.760
No, I'm so excited for you.

3335
02:23:27.760 --> 02:23:28.760
How excited about?

3336
02:23:28.760 --> 02:23:33.760
I just think it's one of the most miraculous things that you can experience as a human being.

3337
02:23:33.760 --> 02:23:34.760
And I'm hopeful for you.

3338
02:23:34.760 --> 02:23:35.760
Yeah.

3339
02:23:35.760 --> 02:23:36.760
Good luck.

3340
02:23:36.760 --> 02:23:37.760
Yeah.

3341
02:23:37.760 --> 02:23:39.760
I hope you get to experience it.

3342
02:23:39.760 --> 02:23:44.760
It's a very different experience to add to your resume.

3343
02:23:44.760 --> 02:23:45.760
I know.

3344
02:23:45.760 --> 02:23:47.760
I think that's why I'm excited by it,

3345
02:23:47.760 --> 02:23:49.760
which is the great unknown.

3346
02:23:49.760 --> 02:23:52.760
And in some respects in my head this might be the wrong framing,

3347
02:23:52.760 --> 02:23:54.760
but it feels like the great sacrifice.

3348
02:23:54.760 --> 02:23:55.760
Yeah.

3349
02:23:55.760 --> 02:23:56.760
It's both.

3350
02:23:56.760 --> 02:24:02.760
I always say it's like the most self-interested and least self-interested thing you can do.

3351
02:24:02.760 --> 02:24:03.760
Self-interested in the set.

3352
02:24:03.760 --> 02:24:05.760
You're like making a copy of yourself.

3353
02:24:05.760 --> 02:24:06.760
Yeah.

3354
02:24:06.760 --> 02:24:07.760
Okay.

3355
02:24:07.760 --> 02:24:08.760
Like talk about narcissism.

3356
02:24:08.760 --> 02:24:09.760
But it's just incredible.

3357
02:24:09.760 --> 02:24:10.760
It really...

3358
02:24:10.760 --> 02:24:12.760
Life is no longer about you.

3359
02:24:12.760 --> 02:24:14.760
That's terrifying to hear.

3360
02:24:14.760 --> 02:24:16.760
It is terrifying to hear objectively.

3361
02:24:16.760 --> 02:24:18.760
Like I understand what you're saying and I agree.

3362
02:24:18.760 --> 02:24:23.760
But it's also as a statement for anybody to know that they're kind of giving up...

3363
02:24:24.760 --> 02:24:25.760
The self.

3364
02:24:25.760 --> 02:24:26.760
Your current self.

3365
02:24:26.760 --> 02:24:28.760
For someone else you've never met.

3366
02:24:28.760 --> 02:24:29.760
Oh, you're giving it up.

3367
02:24:29.760 --> 02:24:30.760
Not...

3368
02:24:30.760 --> 02:24:31.760
You're giving...

3369
02:24:31.760 --> 02:24:33.760
Giving up might not be the right phrase.

3370
02:24:33.760 --> 02:24:37.760
You're evolving into a different version of you for them.

3371
02:24:37.760 --> 02:24:42.760
The more freedom and like resources you have before kids means it's...

3372
02:24:42.760 --> 02:24:44.760
You may experience that as a...more as a loss.

3373
02:24:44.760 --> 02:24:45.760
Oh, that's good.

3374
02:24:45.760 --> 02:24:49.760
But you also have more to gain.

3375
02:24:49.760 --> 02:24:50.760
It really is.

3376
02:24:50.760 --> 02:24:52.760
It's really incredible.

3377
02:24:52.760 --> 02:24:56.760
It's really to focus on like fertility and having children and to ask probing...

3378
02:24:56.760 --> 02:24:59.760
Prying questions about, you know, how many do you want and whatever.

3379
02:24:59.760 --> 02:25:00.760
But I...

3380
02:25:00.760 --> 02:25:06.760
I think it's easy to focus on like the birth process and overlook how long childhood is.

3381
02:25:06.760 --> 02:25:14.760
It's 18 years and I think the major project of it is helping kids learn to talk to other people.

3382
02:25:14.760 --> 02:25:15.760
And how do you do that?

3383
02:25:15.760 --> 02:25:17.760
I'm sure there's loads of parents screaming right now.

3384
02:25:17.760 --> 02:25:18.760
Like how do I...

3385
02:25:18.760 --> 02:25:20.760
How do I set my kid up so that they can talk well?

3386
02:25:20.760 --> 02:25:21.760
Yeah.

3387
02:25:21.760 --> 02:25:24.760
I think it's what you were doing every moment of every day.

3388
02:25:24.760 --> 02:25:29.760
You're interacting with them directly and sort of role modeling what you think that looks like.

3389
02:25:29.760 --> 02:25:31.760
Helping them through difficult moments.

3390
02:25:31.760 --> 02:25:33.760
Helping them both fairly and succeed.

3391
02:25:33.760 --> 02:25:34.760
It's very important.

3392
02:25:34.760 --> 02:25:40.760
And we're hoping to adapt the talk course for high schoolers and younger children quite soon.

3393
02:25:40.760 --> 02:25:42.760
Do I need to get them off YouTube and all that stuff?

3394
02:25:42.760 --> 02:25:43.760
Yes.

3395
02:25:43.760 --> 02:25:44.760
And screens?

3396
02:25:44.760 --> 02:25:46.760
Yes.

3397
02:25:46.760 --> 02:25:49.760
It's a little bit of YouTube.

3398
02:25:49.760 --> 02:25:51.760
A little bit of anything might be okay.

3399
02:25:51.760 --> 02:25:53.760
Digital stuff is hard though because they...

3400
02:25:53.760 --> 02:25:56.760
You give them an inch, they take a mile and it becomes habitual.

3401
02:25:56.760 --> 02:25:58.760
So what do you do with your kids?

3402
02:25:58.760 --> 02:26:04.760
It's a constant evolution and learning and we give them 20 minutes.

3403
02:26:04.760 --> 02:26:05.760
A day?

3404
02:26:05.760 --> 02:26:06.760
Yeah.

3405
02:26:06.760 --> 02:26:08.760
On a computer that doesn't move.

3406
02:26:08.760 --> 02:26:11.760
And nothing moves and they can't carry it with them.

3407
02:26:11.760 --> 02:26:13.760
And what age does that change?

3408
02:26:13.760 --> 02:26:15.760
To be determined.

3409
02:26:15.760 --> 02:26:20.760
They know that they're not getting a phone, like a phone phone.

3410
02:26:20.760 --> 02:26:22.760
I'm getting more and more extreme.

3411
02:26:22.760 --> 02:26:23.760
I feel like maybe never.

3412
02:26:23.760 --> 02:26:26.760
But certainly not until ninth grade.

3413
02:26:26.760 --> 02:26:29.760
And then social media much later than that.

3414
02:26:29.760 --> 02:26:30.760
I mean, if...

3415
02:26:30.760 --> 02:26:32.760
It's an interest.

3416
02:26:32.760 --> 02:26:33.760
We'll see how it goes.

3417
02:26:33.760 --> 02:26:36.760
But it's just such a slippery slope.

3418
02:26:36.760 --> 02:26:38.760
But it's so bad for them.

3419
02:26:38.760 --> 02:26:40.760
Jonathan Heitz did a wonderful job.

3420
02:26:40.760 --> 02:26:42.760
Angela Duckworth is doing great work.

3421
02:26:42.760 --> 02:26:47.760
He's co-it's Stanford trying to help schools sort this out.

3422
02:26:47.760 --> 02:26:49.760
I have that to look forward to.

3423
02:26:49.760 --> 02:26:52.760
People are nice.

3424
02:26:52.760 --> 02:26:55.760
Alison, we have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question

3425
02:26:55.760 --> 02:26:57.760
for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for.

3426
02:26:57.760 --> 02:27:00.760
And the question left few is, if your life was a movie

3427
02:27:00.760 --> 02:27:03.760
and the audience were watching up to this point,

3428
02:27:03.760 --> 02:27:09.760
what would they be screaming at the screen telling you to do right now?

3429
02:27:09.760 --> 02:27:11.760
What a fabulous question.

3430
02:27:11.760 --> 02:27:19.760
Thank you, previous guest.

3431
02:27:19.760 --> 02:27:21.760
Leave Harvard.

3432
02:27:21.760 --> 02:27:27.760
Save the children with talk.

3433
02:27:27.760 --> 02:27:32.760
Devote all of your time and resources to helping every high schooler

3434
02:27:32.760 --> 02:27:36.760
in the world learn to do this better.

3435
02:27:36.760 --> 02:27:37.760
Why?

3436
02:27:37.760 --> 02:27:40.760
I think it's the ultimate human skill.

3437
02:27:40.760 --> 02:27:43.760
And everyone has the potential to do it well.

3438
02:27:43.760 --> 02:27:45.760
And it's not a zero-sum game.

3439
02:27:45.760 --> 02:27:48.760
The more people who do it well, the better off will all be.

3440
02:27:48.760 --> 02:27:49.760
You said save.

3441
02:27:49.760 --> 02:27:51.760
Why did you use the word save?

3442
02:27:51.760 --> 02:27:54.760
I think we're in a period where we actually are needing to save them

3443
02:27:54.760 --> 02:27:58.760
from digital addiction and loneliness.

3444
02:27:58.760 --> 02:28:02.760
We've gotten to a place that we need to roll back.

3445
02:28:02.760 --> 02:28:04.760
And it's really scary.

3446
02:28:04.760 --> 02:28:09.760
And I think one first step is let's get the devices out of schools,

3447
02:28:09.760 --> 02:28:13.760
ideally out of families in their hands.

3448
02:28:13.760 --> 02:28:16.760
But then the next step is like what rises to replace it?

3449
02:28:16.760 --> 02:28:19.760
And I think it could be this talk curriculum.

3450
02:28:19.760 --> 02:28:21.760
So are you going to do that?

3451
02:28:21.760 --> 02:28:22.760
You're going to leave Harvard.

3452
02:28:22.760 --> 02:28:23.760
T-B-D.

3453
02:28:23.760 --> 02:28:24.760
Is that an announcement?

3454
02:28:24.760 --> 02:28:25.760
Are they aware of it?

3455
02:28:25.760 --> 02:28:27.760
That's an exclusive.

3456
02:28:27.760 --> 02:28:29.760
Is that the thumbnail?

3457
02:28:29.760 --> 02:28:31.760
Alison, thank you so much.

3458
02:28:31.760 --> 02:28:33.760
Thank you for the work that you do because it's very important work.

3459
02:28:33.760 --> 02:28:36.760
And it's very timely work, considering everything that's going on in the world.

3460
02:28:36.760 --> 02:28:38.760
At this moment in time.

3461
02:28:38.760 --> 02:28:42.760
And this book is the definitive book on the art of you set it yourself.

3462
02:28:42.760 --> 02:28:46.760
The framework that you've built here is one that's deeply based on science and research.

3463
02:28:46.760 --> 02:28:50.760
And oftentimes we'll not have conversations about communication.

3464
02:28:50.760 --> 02:28:54.760
It's full of platitudes and opinions and a lot of generic things that are supported

3465
02:28:54.760 --> 02:28:55.760
by scientific rigor.

3466
02:28:55.760 --> 02:28:57.760
But you've done the research.

3467
02:28:57.760 --> 02:28:59.760
You've committed so much of your life to this subject.

3468
02:28:59.760 --> 02:29:07.760
And you've managed to write it all in a way that's truly accessible to people like me who are simply, you know, muggles.

3469
02:29:07.760 --> 02:29:09.760
And understands big words sometimes.

3470
02:29:09.760 --> 02:29:20.760
So it's a wonderful entry, but also a sort of an expansive look into the science of great talk.

3471
02:29:20.760 --> 02:29:23.760
We've touched on several things in this book where there's so much more we could have gone through.

3472
02:29:23.760 --> 02:29:24.760
So I'm going to leave that to the audience.

3473
02:29:24.760 --> 02:29:26.760
I'm going to link it below for anyone who wants to read it.

3474
02:29:26.760 --> 02:29:32.760
But also thank you because I think of these issues as being issues that are really foundational to the most important things in our lives.

3475
02:29:32.760 --> 02:29:36.760
Like family, like friendships, like relationships, like the success and the pursuit of our goals.

3476
02:29:36.760 --> 02:29:43.760
And what you're giving people here is a road map to reach the highest potential through this thing called talk.

3477
02:29:43.760 --> 02:29:44.760
And that's a really wonderful thing.

3478
02:29:44.760 --> 02:29:48.760
So if anyone wants this book, it's linked below highly recommend.

3479
02:29:48.760 --> 02:29:51.760
Is there anywhere else one should go to get more of your work? Is there a place?

3480
02:29:51.760 --> 02:29:58.760
Sure. Alison Woodbrooks.com has this new quiz that's so fun. Find out your conversation type.

3481
02:29:58.760 --> 02:30:05.760
Get really clear advice, little tips about how to navigate things and all the science that's underlying those tips.

3482
02:30:05.760 --> 02:30:12.760
Very, very soon you can go to talkstudios.com and look up find out more about this curriculum we're developing for high schoolers.

3483
02:30:12.760 --> 02:30:15.760
I'll link both of them below.

3484
02:30:15.760 --> 02:30:17.760
Doctor Alison Woodbrooks. Thank you so much.

3485
02:30:17.760 --> 02:30:20.760
Thank you so much, Stephen. Thank you for amplifying my work.

3486
02:30:20.760 --> 02:30:23.760
And I just think what you're doing here is fabulous. So thank you.

3487
02:30:23.760 --> 02:30:24.760
Thank you.

3488
02:30:28.760 --> 02:30:34.760
Make sure you keep what I'm about to say to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you to come even deeper into the diorevasia.

3489
02:30:34.760 --> 02:30:36.760
Welcome to my inner circle.

3490
02:30:36.760 --> 02:30:40.760
This is a brand new private community that I'm launching to the world.

3491
02:30:40.760 --> 02:30:44.760
We have so many incredible things that happen that you are never shown.

3492
02:30:44.760 --> 02:30:47.760
We have the briefs that are on my pad when I'm recording the conversation.

3493
02:30:47.760 --> 02:30:49.760
We have clips we've never released.

3494
02:30:49.760 --> 02:30:54.760
We have behind the scenes conversations with the guests and also the episodes that we've never ever released.

3495
02:30:54.760 --> 02:30:57.760
And so much more.

3496
02:30:57.760 --> 02:30:59.760
In a circle you'll have direct access to me.

3497
02:30:59.760 --> 02:31:05.760
You can tell us what you want this show to be, who you want us to interview and the types of conversations you would love us to have.

3498
02:31:05.760 --> 02:31:11.760
But remember for now we're only inviting the first 10,000 people that joined before it closes.

3499
02:31:11.760 --> 02:31:18.760
So if you want to join our private close community head to the link in the description below or go to doccircle.com.

3500
02:31:18.760 --> 02:31:20.760
I will speak to you there.

3501
02:31:35.760 --> 02:31:38.760
you