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Yeah, welcome back to the way you keep what costs at BigChurch Festival in

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collaboration with the yes he is and just a violin.

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Why did BigChurch get more of a woo than the way in justice?

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Wow. That's crazy. Let's go back, let's go do it again.

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Welcome back to the way you keep what cost.

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That's great. Awesome. Well, while we're here, I guess it'd be good for us to do

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introductions. So, tell us in a way.

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Well, Sunny and Jesse, thank you so much for introducing. I'm Justin.

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I host a podcast that is also going to be part of the podcast stage over the next

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three days. The surprising rebirth of belief in God.

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So, I've kind of been working in Christian media, all of my working life,

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but particularly bringing Christians and non-Christians into dialogue and

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discussion. So, that was through many years with a show called Unbelievable,

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but more recently through hosting these kinds of conversations live in studio and tracing

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something that yeah, I've called this surprising rebirth of belief in God.

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And that's all about the way in which I've seen the conversation on faith change

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over the last several years. So, looking forward to sharing a bit more of that today.

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It's great. Do you want to give it a try?

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Yeah, I mean, Justin's an expert, guys. We're feeling it.

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We're like, oh my gosh, Justin, you've got so much gold.

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We can speak for sure. I think we're all

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be learning from each other today, as much as we can from this guy.

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Yeah. And do you mind, you've just written a thesis on this topic,

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awakening on the surprising rebirth of Christian faith.

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Do you mind just like giving a brief explanation as to why you think this is happening?

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Well, we're going to be talking a bit today about the awakening we're seeing, especially

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among a younger generation, Gen Z. But in many ways, I've been seeing that awakening to faith,

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happening across lots of different demographics and ages over the last several years.

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So, when I started hosting debates on God, faith, Christianity,

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getting on for 20 years ago, I was bringing Christians and non-Christians together.

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And it was in the heyday of something that was often called a new atheism.

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This very dogmatic anti-god form of non-belief.

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And it involved sort of key characters like Richard Dawkins, a biologist in his best-selling book,

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The God Delusion. And you guys are probably too young to remember this.

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But there was like a bus campaign in London called the atheist bus campaign.

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And there was just these red London buses circulating the capital with the slogan,

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there's probably no God now stop worrying and enjoy your life.

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So, this was the kind of atmosphere into which I was having these conversations about faith,

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getting on for sort of 15, 20 years ago.

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But what I noticed is, as I brought Christians and non-Christians together for dialogue and

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debate, you know, there were a lot of questions, objections.

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But I found actually Christianity could stand on its own two feet

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intellectually that there were good reasons to believe.

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And in the process, I also found over the years the conversations changed.

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And less and less were people kind of the non-Christians identifying with this very dogmatic,

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quite abrasive form of atheism. And they were getting kind of, they're even saying things like,

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oh, you know, I'm not a Richard Dawkins kind of atheist.

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They were sort of almost slightly embarrassed by the tone, by how zealous it was.

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It was kind of almost quasi-religious in its own sort of way.

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And I noticed a very different conversation start to develop.

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I'd say this was around the end of the 2010s.

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And I started to notice more and more still secular, you know, non-Christian intellectuals

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but who weren't dismissing or disparaging God.

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They were actually saying, hmm, what maybe we're losing something as we lose the Christian story

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in our culture. And they were showing up in lots of different ways.

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One person that I've interviewed a number of times is a historian called Tom Holland,

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not the Spider-Man actor, I should say.

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But the historian.

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The historian.

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I do remember the first time I saw him on a line up, I was like, they've got Tom Holland.

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I know, yeah, it's slightly disappointing.

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But this Tom Holland is a brilliant kind of popular historian, bestselling author.

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He actually co-hosts probably the most listened to history podcast in the world,

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the rest is history.

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Yeah.

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But what's interesting about Tom Holland is he sort of, he has a story of kind of having

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a nominal Christian faith growing up, but it kind of sputtered out by his teenage years.

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But as he went on in his adult years to this career, right?

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And incredibly successful books about, you know, the Greco-Roman Empire and that kind of thing,

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he started to realize that he felt this world,

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of the Greeks and the Romans was so different to his own.

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You know, this was a world where the lives of women and children was cheap,

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where slavery was just a de facto part of the economy,

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where some people could be the sexual property of others.

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And he said, why do I have such different values to those people?

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Why do I believe in equality, dignity, progress, freedom?

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And he realized it's not because of the Greeks and the Romans, they didn't give that to me.

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And he realized science and atheism didn't give that to me.

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He realized it came from a very specific source,

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Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and the movement that he launched with his friends

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had completely reshaped the world that Tom Holland found himself in.

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And he said, even though I struggle to believe in Christianity just in,

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I've realized that in almost every other way, I am a Christian.

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And people like Tom Holland, these quite well known, you know,

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influencers are now, I think, kind of, there's a trickle down effect

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as they talk about these things in the public.

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And people are starting to ask themselves, well, what,

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have we lost something as we've lost the Christian story in our culture?

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And so just to conclude, that kind of intellectual thing's been happening,

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but something's been kind of bubbling up from the ground as well.

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And it's what I've called a meaning crisis.

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It's the idea that people don't have a story to believe in any longer.

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There's kind of, there's nothing that binds us together.

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We're all kind of in our own individual places.

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We've all got to craft our own identity online.

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And the story that once gave ourselves meaning, the Christian stories,

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as we've lost that, people are searching for a story,

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but none of the stories they're putting in the God-shaped hole make sense.

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They don't kind of fulfill us.

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And so I think this is especially hitting young people, super hard,

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because they're the ones who are most kind of, I think, influenced by the challenges

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of social media and everything.

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And so what I think we're seeing is a kind of new openness

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to the Christian story again, because the other stories aren't working.

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They're not working out.

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So I think it's kind of happening at this intellectual level,

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but it's bubbling up from the ground.

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And we're just starting to see some signs of that now, I think, in our country.

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So interesting.

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Yeah, I feel like what you said about the meaning,

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like finding meaning is so relevant and prevalent,

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especially as we're talking about Gen Z and what's stirring.

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I think, I even think back to me, when I was in school,

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that the biggest thing was who am I and where do I fit in.

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And I feel like everybody in their teens, everybody in their 20s,

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that is the looming question, who am I,

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where do I fit in, what's my purpose, what's my place.

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And people are finding that absent from God,

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trying to find that outside of God is just not working,

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but there seems to be a misfit or there's a mismatch or there's something missing.

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And I feel like it's really interesting seeing a lot more young people coming to God now,

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because there seems to be so fulfilled, so set, so whole,

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in finding their identity in Jesus.

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And then from that, how they choose to live forward has more meaning as well.

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It's like a domino effect of meaning.

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I don't know, I just find that such an interesting piece of culture to look into.

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It's like, yeah, where do we belong, where do we fit.

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And young people are searching for that.

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I'd be fascinated to know from you guys,

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because I feel like we've kind of got a couple of generations represented here on stage.

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You guys, Gen Z, okay.

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I sit on the cusp of millennial and Gen X, okay.

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If those labels mean anything to anyone, Gen M, Gen X.

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But I remember when I was a teenager a long time ago now.

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And I remember it being quite difficult to talk about my faith openly.

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It was kind of something that was sort of slightly embarrassing.

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I kind of felt obliged to do it.

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But I don't sense that that's necessarily the feel among Gen Z Christians now.

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I don't know what your experience is and how open people feel to talking about faith.

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I do feel like it's particularly this past five years.

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There's been a huge shift.

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So I became a Christian in 2018.

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Were you 2017?

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2019.

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2019, okay.

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You were a year ahead.

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Not bad.

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And yeah, so I became a Christian in 2018.

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I was 14.

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I met with Jesus.

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It was amazing.

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I ran into school.

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I was trying to tell everyone and anyone about Jesus.

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I was like, this guy's changed my life.

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I thought I knew him and I found something new.

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And I was slammed with rejection.

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Only like 20 minutes away.

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I was in Brighton.

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That's where I grew up.

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And it wasn't this openness.

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It wasn't this open feel.

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It was very much you are rejected because Christianity is something that rejects people,

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not accepts people.

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And I think that was still a bit of a lingering perception of the Christian faith.

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It's this judgmental thing that pushes people away rather than bring to people in.

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And I think it's actually this past five years that's changed not just in schools,

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but as a whole generation.

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So for example, I went to a weekday.

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Anyone in the shop weekday?

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No one.

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All right.

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Yeah, great.

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A few people.

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And I bought these trousers yesterday.

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They're super nice.

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I was like, yeah, I need a new pair of trousers for big church first.

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Bad excuse.

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I really just wanted a new pair of trousers.

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And this lady, I chatted to.

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She was like 22, got all the like, you know, bright, coloured hair, loads of piercing.

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I look on it like we trade Instagrams, check her out.

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She's super atheist, like public atheist.

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And yet when I spoke to her about church, she was like, yeah, man, that's cool.

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You do you.

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Yeah, that's cool.

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You do what works for you, man, that's cool.

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And like this is someone that 20 years ago would have a debate with you,

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trying to tear down your phone, but instead it was met with like almost this affirmation

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that it's good for you to just do what you believe it.

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And so, but about eight years ago, that would have been a debate with

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if I was chatting to someone who had that kind of strong atheist belief.

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And but something shifted.

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And now my brother, sorry, we're going to ask.

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Well, I was going to say, we'll continue with the story.

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But yeah, I just fascinated what her shifted.

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You know, that's the question I suppose.

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Well, that's that's the expert question that we'll get to you.

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I'll be the more storyteller.

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And my brother who's 15, he's he's like a bit of like a road man.

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He's like wearing his tracksuits around like bright.

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And it's quite funny.

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It's he's so sweet.

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But then people chat to him about faith.

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They're like, dude, like, how's your faith?

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And he's like, yeah, it's good, man.

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It's good.

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Whatever.

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And they're like, you're a Christian.

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That's so lame.

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And he's like, don't talk about my faith like that.

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And they all like, yeah, fair respect, respect.

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It's like there is something that's slightly shifted in school.

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But also now the generation that was picking on me are more accepting,

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which is really interesting.

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Yeah.

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Can you name any change, Danielle?

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I was thinking and I was like, I feel like we're in this era of like truths.

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Like I don't know if anyone like picked up maybe like five, six, seven years ago,

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this whole like your truth is your truth or like, oh, like this is my truth.

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Like truth has become this like, I don't know.

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It's like kind of every fairy word.

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We're like, you can grab truth over here.

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And you can grab truth or like, oh, it works for you.

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That's your truth and stuff.

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Like I think people are more open to the fact of like multiple ways.

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And like people are not so like dismissive of this is the only way we do things.

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This is the only faith you can have to know.

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Like people are more open to exploring other pathways.

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Because I guess truth is like there's something to do with truth.

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I don't know how to articulate it, but I think yeah, people are becoming more open-minded

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and less like this is the only way.

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It's like actually maybe there's some truth in that.

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And then they explore it and they're like, wow, this is it.

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I don't know.

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Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

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I think there is a bit more of an openness.

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I think in a funny way, what I described earlier, this new atheist moment in our culture

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20 years ago, was actually quite close-minded.

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It was like, you know, if you believe you're an airhead, you're kind of delusional.

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If that was the kind of language being used.

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And I just don't think people, I think that kind of

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wore thin fairly quickly actually.

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But I think today that would be seen as like just as sort of fundamentalist, almost as

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fundamentalist religious people.

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You know, so there's that going on.

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I think also among, you know, where I'd say I've seen the real difference

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with Gen Z is, as I mentioned, the pressures that social media bring, I think, is not insignificant

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here.

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And there's a degree to which, unlike any other previous generation, Gen Z have had to kind

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of live their lives in the public spotlight far more than I did when I was that age.

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I could make my mistakes and it wasn't sort of spread all over the internet, if you know what I mean.

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But now you live kind of under this public spotlight where you kind of have to craft an image,

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curate a kind of unidentity in these online spaces.

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And that I think is actually really pressurising for a lot of young people.

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It can be actually very burdensome.

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And I think it does partly sort of contribute to the mental health crisis that we know is kind

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of underway among Gen Z.

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And I think it's, for me, it goes back to this thing of people are all looking for a story

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to make sense of their lives.

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And like I say, the Christian story is a story that sort of made sense of people's lives for

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generations. It was a story with a beginning, a middle and an end.

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The beginning is God made you.

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You're made in God's image that gives you infinite worth and value.

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And the middle is even though life is tough, God's come to be with us in person to share that

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life with us.

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And through his death and resurrection, Jesus kind of shows us that there's an end to this story.

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There's a hope. There's a future.

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And that story has kind of, whether people explicitly realised it or not, I think,

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given a kind of a sense of meaning and purpose and identity to countless generations before.

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But as that story has been, if you like, sidelined in the West,

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what's filled the space?

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Because it's not that people can just bounce around chaoticly, not believing they have a story.

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We have to kind of believe we live in some kind of a story.

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We're kind of, you know, the psychologists tell us, we're story-driven creatures.

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The problem is people are putting in all kinds of other stories, maybe about gender and identity,

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maybe about political mythologies on the right.

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All these stories kind of people try and put in that hole.

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But it doesn't fit. None of it fulfills.

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And in fact, they all clash up against each other and create these culture wars.

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And so that's why I think you're being left with a generation,

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especially of the youngest generation who are kind of so exhausted and confused and distracted

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as well by all the demands of what social media and technology brings.

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That it kind of leaves them actually desperate enough for something else, for a different story.

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And so those who, the ones that I see starting to be attracted to faith, to church,

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are the ones who have kind of said the secular promises of technology and science and whatever.

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They just haven't worked out.

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So I might just try this thing that my grandparents or even great grandparents used to do.

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And maybe, and they're often I think very surprised because the other factor is a lot of kind of

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the slightly older generations, the millennials, the Gen X's, I think they had enough Christian culture

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and upbringing to kind of be able to almost be inoculated against it.

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You know, it's like when you're given a vaccine, it's usually you're given just enough of the disease

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to kind of stimulate your body to reject it when it comes back.

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And I think that's the way it is with a slightly older generation.

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They think they know church, they think they know Christianity.

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And they've said, no, that was a childhood thing.

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I'm done with that. Gen Z haven't been in church, basically.

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They don't know anything about Christianity.

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And ironically, that makes them more open.

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They haven't got the baggage.

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So they're kind of willing to give it a go because why not?

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You know, so I think it's part of that.

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I don't know whether that speaks to you guys.

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No, totally. It's like, it's what you said.

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I heard someone say the older generation had enough of the beauty of the gospel

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to think they understood it, but not enough of it to fall in love with it

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and to let it actually change their lives.

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It's that. I mean, that's a fancy science word.

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Anoculated is that?

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Yeah, well, I'm stealing that from someone else, I'm sure.

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But this idea that, yeah, if you have just enough of something

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to think you know what it is, you can think you can then safely reject it.

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But I love it.

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I've met so many people and I've interviewed some fascinating people who have gone through that.

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Thinking they, well, I grew up with Christianity at school.

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And they thought, you know, that wasn't for me.

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But when they returned to it, actually as adults, in a kind of more searching,

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inquiring mode, they suddenly realize, I never really understood this.

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It's different to what I thought it was.

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Yeah.

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I know, sorry, you can go in a minute.

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What you're going to say.

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I know, I know, I know.

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I like to see things, I'm completely different.

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But I think you talking about like the cultural aspects of Christianity,

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like, is an important conversation.

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because a lot of people will grow up in church, grow up in kind of like this Christian thing.

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They know the moves to do, to sit down, genuinely flex, whatever the thing is, what Christian

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songs to listen to. And like kind of have a relationship with Jesus, I kind of know the popular

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verses and that's kind of like my faith. But I think we're finding with Gen Z, that's not enough,

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like like surface, almost like a surface level like understanding of how we operate as Christians

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just isn't enough. Like there has to be like some more, some more substance. And I think like

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sometimes in the past, or growing up how I found was like, you kind of had to fall into this certain

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type of mold of Christian. Otherwise, it doesn't work for you. Whereas I fall out with Gen Z,

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like they're exploring the like deeper, like what does it mean to have a relationship with Jesus?

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And when you have a relationship with Jesus, you realize actually the gospel is a one-size-fits-all

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message like Jesus died for everyone, including me with how I find myself right now. And I don't

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need to like fit into like a Christian culture of this is, this is how you do church. I don't know,

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we stand up here, or I don't know, we only give for that, or we only sing those type of stuff.

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Like now it's more like, almost like the church is adapting and like it's like getting with the

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wave of young people that are coming, which I think might be different to other generations

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previously. Yeah, I've sensed with some of those young people who are coming through the doors of

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church. It's been interesting because over the last two years as I sort of started to talk about

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this surprising rebirth of belief in God, I had a lot of church leaders get in touch with me and say

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the thing is just in that the people we've noticed starting to turn up are young people, especially young

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men, interestingly. And the young men, I think this kind of meaning crisis has maybe hit them

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quite hard because I think it's quite hard to know what it is to be a man in the modern world.

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And there's a lot of kind of really dodgy kind of people trying to pedal a version of masculinity

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like Andrew Tate online and so on. But I think a lot of a lot of young men have kind of realized

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there's a much better version and it's found in Jesus Christ. And so it's very interesting. If you

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look at some of these statistics that come out recently, the quiet revival statistics from the

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Bible society, this extraordinary change that they've mapped, they did a first survey,

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very big, wide-stale credible survey in 2018 of church going basically in religious habits.

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And it was kind of what you would expect very low generally, especially among the youngest

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age demographic, 18 to 24 year olds, around 4% going to church somewhat regularly.

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They did it again six years later just last year, 2024. And those numbers had shot up

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dramatically, so much so that they didn't publish this research for a while because they needed to

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double check it and cross-check it because they were so surprised at this leap. But among that,

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specifically 18 to 24 year old group, it had gone up to 16%, so what droopled in the space of six

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years saying that it was going to church. And interestingly, among young men, specifically even

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more, it was 21%. Now, whether that's we're seeing that kind of realistically in our local churches,

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there's a slightly different question, but it shows that there's been a sea change in the way

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young people start to think about religion and the idea of going to church. It's something's

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quite dramatic has happened, so there's been this kind of, and so I was fascinated to get

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hard data to kind of back up what I felt was I'd sensed was happening in the culture up to that

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point. I mean, big church fest is sold out. Yeah, I think that's the first time ever that it's sold.

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And it's like, oh my gosh, this is such a good representation. Yeah, it's pretty cool. It is.

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And I'm hearing similar things from other festivals this summer, just so many people who want to

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get involved. And I don't know, I think there's something, a lot of these young men who have been

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turning up at church, they've got a Bible in their hands. They've never been to church before,

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but they've maybe heard from an online influencer that if you want to get your life sorted out,

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if you want to kind of beat your addiction to porn, if you want to get some meaning and purpose

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in your life, if you want some direction or whatever, try Christianity, try reading the Bible.

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And so they're literally just going and buying the Bible. And without even being invited,

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turning up at the door of a church saying someone told me I should try this. So I'm

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kind of, I'm really encouraged because the funny thing about this is, it's not, it's not some

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great evangelistic program that the church has created. Obviously, it's great if we have welcoming

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and, you know, engage churches for people to find when they, but actually, it's something

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God's doing outside the walls of the church that's actually bringing people to the church.

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And that for me is very exciting because it feels like something's flipped at that point.

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Well, it's like the, I think it's like the decision paralysis thing.

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Who hasn't had lunch yet? Give me a little wave if you haven't had lunch. Okay, this is for you.

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Try not to choose a friend who's indecisive because there's so many options down there.

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And you know, and you're kind of sat in the middle and you've got a friend who's like,

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a little indecisive or you're the indecisive one. And you look around and it's like,

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do I want churros? Do I want like Greek food? Do I want this? Do I want this? I don't know.

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I'm stuck and you almost want someone to just grab you by the hand and take you to the place.

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You kind of want someone to just grab you and take you towards best for you. And that's the,

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that's the thing. Yeah, but young men are looking for, or just generally, not just young men,

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all of culture. We're looking for these, all these options. Never, never, apart from very specific

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tiny scenarios, could like a 14 year old become a millionaire. But now you can have 14 year old

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to a social media influencers who have flown around the world to Dubai. And so if you're a 14 year

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old looking at this and you're like, oh my gosh, I could, I could be an influencer. I could be

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a musician. I could be an actor. I can do whatever I want. I'd just chosen creative topics because

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that's what I could be an engineer. I could be an IT guy. Like anything, anything's available.

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You can do whatever you want. Oh my gosh, that is draining. I'm tired trying to figure out what I

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want for breakfast. Imagine trying to choose your career and you're expected to do so when you're

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a 13 year old, 14 year old, whatever, 20 year old, 30 year old. And this message of Jesus is one

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that just says, hey, no, no, no, you don't need to figure out all that stuff. That's external.

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I'll use that. I'll do something with that. But first, let's get right with who you are.

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Let me grab you and take you to the cross and that'll change your life. And that's what I think is,

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we're all experiencing as a culture is this overwhelming sense that I need to choose. And

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if I choose the wrong thing, it's the end of the world. And so the message of Christianity is

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suddenly just so appealing. Well, I think what you're describing is at the heart of Christianity,

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it's grace. It's that you will mess up. You will make wrong choices. But whereas the culture says,

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if you do that, you're basically cancelled, you're basically kind of it's over.

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Christianity says, no, we're all in the same boat. And God can pick you up, dust you off,

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and through his grace, give you a fresh start. And that is actually quite a rare thing to hear

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in our culture. But it's so appealing when people realize it.

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Yeah. And with the pressures that are on like young people, having the message of grace

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is like the biggest sigh of relief. And it just, yeah, it just counteracts all the

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things that cultures try and feed us. But I wanted to ask a question kind of about the church.

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And like we've talked about the quiet revival. We've talked about the fact that lots more young

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people are coming to church. But like what can the church do? And maybe not just like specific

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churches, but maybe like the big sea church, like as Christians, like God is obviously doing

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something. And we want to be people that can steward what God is doing. So how do we steward this

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movement? How do we steward these young people that are coming into faith, coming into

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relationship with Jesus? What'd you guys think? If I kick off on that one, we've had someone

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who's got baptized quite recently in our church, one of the young lady called Michaela. And her

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story is that she grew up not really with much Christian influence in her life,

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except for a grandmother who was a Christian. But during COVID, during lockdown as a sort of young

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teenager, she was starting to just feel really, just sensing the sense of isolation that that brought

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and everything else. And she started following lots of people on TikTok, Instagram, influencers. And

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she was looking to find some kind of meaning through things like crystals, tarot, she was looking

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at manifesting all those sorts of things that were an offer in that world. And now she's on the

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stage. That's a joke. That's a joke. Michaela Sand said she just didn't find what she was looking

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for in that stuff. But she, into her algorithm, popped some Christian influencers. Maybe in Be You Guys,

427
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I don't know. But she just found there was something different about them. There was this kind of

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hope, this kind of, this, this sense of peace that wasn't always striving after the next thing

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or, or try, you know, it was this sense of grace and peace that she found. And she just liked it.

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So she said to her grandmother, could you get me a Bible? She started reading the Bible. She said,

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she just every day something was speaking to her. There was just this sense. And so Michaela kind of

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became a Christian. We're ever going to church, interestingly. She sort of kind of, and then she

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finally found a way to the doors of our church. And when she got there, it was just like the lights

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went on. She was just so, she's got an amazing singing voice. And everyone, there was no not a dry

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eye in the house when she was baptized. And she sang this beautiful song as part of her testimony.

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And what I see from someone like Michaela, that sort of Gen Z who's kind of gone on that search

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is that they're not looking actually for bells and whistles. They're not really looking for

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like some super smart, like glamorous kind of version of church. They're just looking for the real

439
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:05.280
thing. They're looking for something very authentic. Most Gen Z eye meat, the thing they want to do,

440
00:28:05.280 --> 00:28:09.760
and I think that you guys do really well at the way is they want to do Bible study. And they're not

441
00:28:09.760 --> 00:28:14.400
like necessarily looking to be that entertain because they've got loads of entertainment on their

442
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:20.160
phone. The church can never out entertain kind of what's already on offer in the culture.

443
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:26.480
Well, the church can do is speak to their soul in a very deep way. And so my teenage kids,

444
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.320
they're kind of getting on WhatsApp with their friends and doing Bible studies. I didn't do that

445
00:28:30.320 --> 00:28:33.440
at their age. I mean, didn't have WhatsApp at their age. But, you know what I mean, it's like,

446
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.960
there's something changed. It's like they just want to go deeper. They want something real.

447
00:28:37.520 --> 00:28:42.400
And I think sometimes the church forgets that. We think, oh, young people, we need to kind of

448
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:46.320
turn it all into a game and a fun thing. Now there's nothing wrong with games and fun things.

449
00:28:46.320 --> 00:28:51.520
But I think young people are ready for more now. And that's kind of that's where I'm in my advice

450
00:28:51.520 --> 00:29:01.440
to the church. That was pretty. Well, I was just thinking I was just thinking through as we were

451
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:06.960
talking. It's good to try and listen to God and try have a bit of a prophetic edge. We're about

452
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:14.080
to do a Q&A section. Yeah. But just the the influence of culture, which doesn't preach grace,

453
00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:18.800
that's kind of one of the things we talked about. How Christianity is something that

454
00:29:19.360 --> 00:29:25.040
that gives the message of grace, which we don't see in many other places. And I actually felt

455
00:29:25.040 --> 00:29:30.000
challenged as you were speaking that that culture that teaches cancel culture, you can't make a

456
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:35.920
single mistake. It's not actually going to bleed into our own church culture at some point.

457
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:42.480
But just if you sat down, if you listened in, if whatever, and you just actually, for a while,

458
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:48.560
it felt like you can't make a mistake or it feels like grace has felt distant and God has just

459
00:29:48.560 --> 00:29:53.360
felt like this people. You need to please him all the time. Actually, yeah, I feel a bit of a

460
00:29:53.360 --> 00:29:58.320
challenge from the Lord to say, God's grace is for his church as well. It's for his Christians.

461
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:02.800
I don't know if you've struggled with some of the topics we're talking about, not feeling like

462
00:30:02.800 --> 00:30:07.680
you belong, not feeling like you can mess up. But actually this this thing that we're talking about,

463
00:30:07.760 --> 00:30:11.440
this Christian faith, God's grace is also for all of you.

464
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:16.960
Yeah, that's just what I wanted to say before our little Q&A section. We're going to have a

465
00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:22.560
roaming mic. That flew by that faith. It did, didn't it? Wow, flipping it. Thank you for listening.

466
00:30:22.560 --> 00:30:27.920
Thanks for listening. There's a bit of a grid. We've been going to do a little roaming mic,

467
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:31.600
Q&A thing. So if you've got any questions that have stared on your heart a little bit,

468
00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:35.680
something you're like, I actually really want to ask this question or we've got Justin here.

469
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:40.640
He's amazing. Oh my gosh, I want to ask him this. Now's your moment. So we're talking more

470
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:45.920
specifically around the church and revival. There'll be other topics like social media. But yeah,

471
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:50.800
if you want to just put your hand up, if you've got a question. Amazing. Should we go here in the front?

472
00:30:50.800 --> 00:30:57.920
Start with. Justin, we're talking here about the massive growth with youth. Are you finding

473
00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:03.680
there's also a massive growth with older people as it were, people coming back to the church?

474
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.760
Well, it's interesting to say that because yeah, we shouldn't overlook the fact that actually

475
00:31:07.760 --> 00:31:13.040
something's happening across the demographic. So I think it's happening most acutely among young

476
00:31:13.040 --> 00:31:17.760
people. And that's certainly what this quiet revival research showed. But it showed actually

477
00:31:17.760 --> 00:31:22.960
an upturn across lots of different age demographics. And so yeah, a lot of the people I've spoken to

478
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:27.920
are often often in the more kind of middle-aged bracket. And these people who probably did get

479
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:32.640
some exposure to Christianity and their youth, but kind of discounted it. Someone I'm thinking of

480
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:38.960
is Paul King's North, who's a celebrated sort of poet and author. And you know, built a very

481
00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:44.720
successful career award-winning author. But his story is he kind of was a teenage atheist and rejected

482
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:50.960
the kind of church he encountered in his youth. But he bounced through that to kind of Buddhism

483
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:54.880
for many years. He was very involved in the environmental movement. And he was looking for something

484
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:59.440
that could kind of make sense of that. But Buddhism didn't work in the end. And he even ended up

485
00:31:59.520 --> 00:32:04.960
for a few years trying wicker, you know, so kind of nature worship in the woods. Until finally,

486
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:09.360
someone, people started getting in touch with him through his writing school because who were sending

487
00:32:09.360 --> 00:32:13.440
him their sermons. And he was like, oh, I didn't know they were Christians. And he's wife, he

488
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:17.840
isn't a Christian, just set out the blue one one evening over dinner. Paul, you're going to become

489
00:32:17.840 --> 00:32:23.040
a Christian. And he was like, what are you talking about? Don't be ridiculous. But then he started

490
00:32:23.040 --> 00:32:28.960
having dreams about Jesus. And in his own words, God kind of pulled him kicking and screaming out of

491
00:32:29.040 --> 00:32:35.600
wicker. And he's now a Christian. And he's sort of in his probably early 50s. But I meet more and

492
00:32:35.600 --> 00:32:40.640
more stories like Paul Kings North people who have kind of tried to make sense of their life through

493
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.920
different things through maybe different worldviews, careers, whatever. But I've kind of reached that

494
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:51.600
sort of 50s stage. And they're like, none of this has really satisfied me. And they're

495
00:32:51.600 --> 00:32:56.080
something about the openness in our culture right now means that they're being given intellectual

496
00:32:56.080 --> 00:33:01.280
permission to look into Christianity again 20 years ago. That was like out of bounds. You

497
00:33:01.280 --> 00:33:06.800
were an idiot if you went and looked to Christianity in the culture. But now it's like, okay, it's

498
00:33:06.800 --> 00:33:11.760
kind of like suddenly the doors opened. And I'm seeing more and more of those type of demographics

499
00:33:11.760 --> 00:33:16.880
walking, walking through the doors. And also to speak from it, I know the question was almost

500
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:23.040
avoiding the Gen Z topic. But like we saw this young guy become a Christian about a year ago,

501
00:33:23.040 --> 00:33:27.440
just started coming along to church. It was amazing. And then he just brought his dad. Right.

502
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:32.720
And his dad just started coming along and his dad became a Christian. And so there's like

503
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:38.080
lots of means in which God is intentionally reaching the older generation. And I'm really excited

504
00:33:38.080 --> 00:33:43.680
for that. Yeah. And yeah. All right, hands up if you've got another question. I'm not going to be

505
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:50.080
able to choose Dan because I'll feel bad. Outside of our very own personal experiences with Jesus

506
00:33:50.080 --> 00:33:56.880
Christ and our Christophannies, what do you have to say about a real present historic church?

507
00:33:57.600 --> 00:34:03.760
And the very scriptures that we hold within our hands come from a certain historic place.

508
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:13.360
And an authority exists to interpret it. How do you include that with today at the big church first?

509
00:34:14.240 --> 00:34:19.760
Oh, it's a deep one. Well, I suppose the question you're asking is around sort of the way in which

510
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:25.600
the Christian message has been passed down historically. And obviously many Catholics would say

511
00:34:25.600 --> 00:34:30.320
that we have kind of been given the deposit, you know, going right back to St Peter.

512
00:34:31.040 --> 00:34:35.520
Eastern Orthodox would make a similar claim. These are if you like the oldest church traditions.

513
00:34:35.520 --> 00:34:39.760
But many people I'm sure in this tent come from more modern incarnations of church,

514
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:46.240
house church movements, you know, Pentecostal, charismatic and so on. I mean, I'm someone who's

515
00:34:46.240 --> 00:34:51.920
all about the big tent personally. And I think in God's grace, God sort of is able to speak and

516
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:56.000
act through many different manifestations of the church. And I think in some ways,

517
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:00.800
big church festival is precisely that. It's saying, you know, we're not even really asking

518
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:06.720
about the denominational labels. We're saying, you know, we are Christians. And to some extent,

519
00:35:06.720 --> 00:35:10.240
you know, that has always been the case, you know, if you go back even to the very early

520
00:35:10.240 --> 00:35:16.400
days when those first creeds were sent set down, it was about those core beliefs, which

521
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:20.720
whichever church you go to, you know, as long as you can say, I believe in one God, Father,

522
00:35:20.720 --> 00:35:26.240
Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, Jesus Christ is Son and the Holy Spirit. And you can say those

523
00:35:26.240 --> 00:35:32.160
things, then that is something that binds us together. I'm happy to leave the questions about

524
00:35:32.160 --> 00:35:39.200
who's got the correct sort of deposit of faith. I'm kind of, I'm sort of, it's interesting,

525
00:35:39.200 --> 00:35:43.920
but right now, I'm just excited to see that this is actually happening, interesting across lots

526
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:50.000
of different church denominations, this awakening. But interestingly, yeah, those ancient ones,

527
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:54.160
the Catholic Eastern Orthodox, they're seeing a huge uptick as well. And I think that's because

528
00:35:54.160 --> 00:35:59.120
people are sometimes gravitating towards something that feels like it's got roots and goes back a

529
00:35:59.120 --> 00:36:03.600
long way. So I'm all about that, but I believe God can speak through the fresh expressions too.

530
00:36:03.600 --> 00:36:09.200
That's so good. That was great. Thanks for that. Well, I mean, do you want to talk about your

531
00:36:09.200 --> 00:36:15.440
experience growing up at all? Yeah, I can a little bit. I was raised Catholic, shout out to the

532
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:22.400
Catholics. And then I kind of like fell away from faith. Oh, no, it's so dry, wasn't it? I was,

533
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:27.440
I'll actually be a genuine Lisa's ear. She's being honest guys, you got that? Yeah, shout out.

534
00:36:28.640 --> 00:36:35.840
And I think like in my upbringing, the kind of like more like structured, like approach to prayer,

535
00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:41.600
or like even church and like the whole like language of sacraments and stuff, like it made me see

536
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:48.320
like churches is really holy space. Like I had like so much respect. Like just borderline,

537
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:52.480
just foundational respects for Jesus. I was like, this thing is that really, really sacred.

538
00:36:53.680 --> 00:36:58.160
But I think like what the difference that I'm seeing in in those worlds and maybe this is just

539
00:36:58.160 --> 00:37:03.440
down to my own personal experience was growing up. I didn't have a lot of like on fire like Catholic

540
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:10.000
friends. And so it was kind of hard for me to like keep my own fire as a believer. But now that I'm

541
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:14.640
in like the Protestant world, I fell away from faith for a bit, came to Christ at 17 and now I'm at

542
00:37:14.640 --> 00:37:19.600
like a non-denominational church. But I feel like space is like this. And what we're seeing now,

543
00:37:19.600 --> 00:37:25.760
do you like the acts to model of community really well? Like prioritizing fellowship,

544
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:30.160
gathering together, like breaking bread, like really having like deep wrestles about, okay,

545
00:37:30.160 --> 00:37:37.040
what do we actually believe? And how do we live this out in our 2025 context? Because newsflash,

546
00:37:37.040 --> 00:37:41.680
the times of the Bible and the times now look very different. But those conversations of how do

547
00:37:41.680 --> 00:37:46.320
we apply it are so important. And I feel like in spaces like this, we're actually doing that.

548
00:37:47.120 --> 00:37:51.520
And like half the battle is just figuring out how to get on the same page. And when we figure that

549
00:37:51.520 --> 00:37:55.680
out, I feel like we live it really, really well. So yeah, that's like my contribution.

550
00:37:55.680 --> 00:38:02.880
That's right. That's right. You know, God doesn't like disunity at all. He actually just loves

551
00:38:03.600 --> 00:38:10.080
his bride. He loves his people and he loves everyone. And he's desperate to bring unity. And that

552
00:38:10.160 --> 00:38:16.240
will look complicated at points. And it has in the past and it might do in the future. But the joy,

553
00:38:16.240 --> 00:38:22.000
as you said, is that there is this general thing where every denomination, every church sector

554
00:38:22.560 --> 00:38:28.800
is seeing this bubbling thing, seeing this like rise of interest in Christianity, no matter what

555
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:34.000
denomination it is. And that's what's really interesting is there is a unity within the different

556
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:39.040
churches, which is people are hungry for Jesus. So that's pretty cool. Yeah. Great.

557
00:38:39.040 --> 00:38:43.280
Oh, all right. Go for another question. One more question. Oh, man, it's so tricky. Dan,

558
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:49.520
you got to choose again. Pressures on you. There he goes. I was really interested in what you were

559
00:38:49.520 --> 00:38:58.320
saying about the inoculation effect, particularly linked to how we experience Christianity in schools.

560
00:38:59.040 --> 00:39:04.960
I just wondered what you would suggest we could do differently in schools to avoid that vaccine.

561
00:39:06.080 --> 00:39:14.160
It's a great question. I want to say this firstly. I'm not at all against church being in schools.

562
00:39:14.160 --> 00:39:18.720
In fact, we're going to be having later on this afternoon a conversation about how church

563
00:39:18.720 --> 00:39:24.960
schools can do church in slightly out of the box ways. So do come back for that if you're

564
00:39:25.040 --> 00:39:29.760
available and Andy will from the Church of England's education department is going to be with us.

565
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:36.480
But I think there's a really incredibly valuable place actually for kind of just putting a bedding

566
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:41.440
in some core Christian concepts or just bits of the Bible. Obviously that only tends to happen

567
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:48.560
now in church schools. It's far less opportunity for that in just mainstream state schools.

568
00:39:48.560 --> 00:39:53.920
But I think it is still valuable. There's something about having some of that to almost draw on

569
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:59.360
later on in life is actually really important. The danger is that people do go away and think

570
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:04.320
that's what Christianity is, that kind of Sunday school associations or whatever it might be.

571
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:09.840
I think the only way to counter that at that moment where they're receiving is the hope and

572
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:14.320
prayer that the people who are passing on that information are not just doing it as a matter of

573
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:18.560
quote and quote education. But there's something about their lives that says actually this is

574
00:40:18.560 --> 00:40:24.960
meaningful. This is real. And for me one of the good things in a sense about the fact that we've

575
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:31.760
gone through a period of if you like nominal Christianity kind of dying away to the point where

576
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:35.360
most people are in church on a Sunday or there because they really want to be and they're

577
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:40.400
passionate about this is that actually there's an opportunity for something new to grow. And as those

578
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:45.200
those Christians who have a real passion for God and Jesus go into those spaces now. Actually

579
00:40:45.200 --> 00:40:50.480
there may be presenting it in a little bit of a different way to the way it was 30 or 40 years ago

580
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:57.520
when you and I were growing up. It's really good. I think also like just a touch on like I was having

581
00:40:57.520 --> 00:41:01.120
a conversation with my friends about this the other day but like there are certain things in life

582
00:41:01.120 --> 00:41:05.840
that you're forced to do like you have to go to school like news flash whether you like or not

583
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:11.920
you have to be there. And like as we're like getting more into like our faith we realize that

584
00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:17.600
everything in life is an opportunity. And so I think even reframing like what is like our

585
00:41:17.600 --> 00:41:22.800
approach to school as Christians like are we just there to go collect our grades and go home

586
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:28.080
or are we actually there as with an opportunity that Jesus could be here to and what does that look

587
00:41:28.080 --> 00:41:33.680
like like that doesn't necessarily mean we have to put on full like production church services

588
00:41:33.680 --> 00:41:37.840
in our school. And if you want to do that great but that could also just be having conversations

589
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:42.480
with people and just making Jesus more of the normal conversation and there are so many normal

590
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:46.880
conversations that people have in school why can't Jesus be one of those as well. You know I think

591
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:52.400
that that's also like the reframing it's really interesting too. And it's like training up those

592
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:57.040
you have in your church because you know we've talked a lot about this this rise of kids in school

593
00:41:57.040 --> 00:42:01.920
who are coming into church and you're probably going back into school actually then that's our

594
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:08.080
that's our secret agent that's our opportunity because to change a whole education system

595
00:42:08.720 --> 00:42:12.480
is pretty tricky. I mean you'll be talking about it later which which you should definitely

596
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:19.600
come to if that's that's your lane. But I remember you know my my religious educator my RE teacher

597
00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:25.120
he wasn't he wasn't a Christian he wasn't anything he just it was a job he was like 22 or something

598
00:42:25.200 --> 00:42:32.320
just keen for some money to live and unfortunately that will happen and you know you said just

599
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:38.560
and how you almost want the person communicating it to have a heart of Christ that's that's amazing

600
00:42:38.560 --> 00:42:42.160
that's an ideal but it's not always going to be the case like there's going to be teachers like

601
00:42:42.160 --> 00:42:49.280
mine who who told 14 year old me that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' lover right I'm like what the heck

602
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:55.040
that's not what I told you what did you get that yeah and there there will be that's it situations

603
00:42:55.040 --> 00:43:00.320
like that but that's that's where we have to disciple those we have in our youth groups in our church

604
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:05.920
and actually encourage the challenge and the open conversation in our schools so that when

605
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:10.160
moments like that happen the likelihood is there's going to be one or two Christians in the class

606
00:43:10.160 --> 00:43:15.600
if this is growing if this is rising as we've said there will be one or two Christians in the class

607
00:43:15.680 --> 00:43:19.760
and so for them to just stand outside the door and be like hey what did you think of that

608
00:43:20.720 --> 00:43:26.480
yeah you see I'm a Christian but Philippinec that was nonsense this is what Jesus actually is

609
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:31.920
and so it's almost training like the the kids we have to go back into school rather than trying

610
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:36.160
I mean there's two ways to come the next generation of teachers as well who's faith can shine

611
00:43:36.160 --> 00:43:43.120
through you know when they are teaching about these issues yeah I agree and and in a way I'm an

612
00:43:43.120 --> 00:43:48.800
eternal optimist I think we've been through a period of secularization but God's doing something

613
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:54.000
new and I think that's going to for me that will spread out in all kinds of ways through education

614
00:43:54.640 --> 00:43:59.760
through the culture through entertainment arts science I think there's all kinds of different

615
00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:06.320
ways in which people are going to start oh well I'm being attacked by a plant demonic attack no it's

616
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:12.880
not a plant doesn't want me to share Jesus as I say I think I think there's an opportunity here

617
00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:18.400
and and God's doing something new so um oh thank you for for rescuing me that's right on time

618
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:23.600
because we've here we've hit on time then someone has just handed me a copy of my book the

619
00:44:23.600 --> 00:44:29.440
surprising rebirth Philippine God available in the book tent I assume here somewhere somewhere on site

620
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:33.200
so if you want the kind of the deep dive into what we've been talking about that's the book to get

621
00:44:33.200 --> 00:44:40.560
thank you so much Justin for giving up your time talking to us thank you so much suggest

622
00:44:40.560 --> 00:44:47.680
here as well um again oh thanks Jesse and yeah we're going to be doing more podcast throughout

623
00:44:47.680 --> 00:44:52.640
the next few days so stay tuned stay locked in look at your schedules see what's happening

624
00:44:52.640 --> 00:44:56.800
well yeah thank you guys so much for being with us and asking great questions too we'll see you

625
00:44:56.800 --> 00:44:58.800
the next one yeah