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You're one of the three godfathers of AI, the most cited scientist on Google

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Scholar, but I also read that you're an introvert. It begs the question why have you

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decided to step out of your introversion? Because I have something to say. I've

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become more hopeful that there is a technical solution to build AI that will

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not harm people and could actually help us. Now, how do we get there? Well, I have

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to say something important here. Professor Yoshua Benjiyo is one of the pioneers of AI.

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Whose groundbreaking research earned him the most prestigious honor in computer

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science. He's now sharing the urgent next steps that can determine the future of

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our world. Is it fair to say that you're one of the reasons that this software

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exists? Amongst others, yes. Do you have any regrets? Yes, I should have seen

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this coming much earlier, but I didn't pay much attention to the potentially

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catastrophic risks. But my turning point was when the chat GPT came and also with

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my grandson, I realized that it wasn't clear if he would have a life 20 years

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from now. Because we're starting to see AI systems that are resisting being

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shut down. We've seen pretty serious cyber attacks and people becoming

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emotionally attached to their chatbot with some tragic consequences.

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Presumably, they're just going to get safer and safer though. So the data shows

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that it's been in the other direction as showing bad behavior that goes

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against science instructions. So all the existential risks that sit there

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before you on these cards is that one that you're most concerned about in the

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near time. So there is a risk that doesn't get discussed enough and it could

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happen pretty quickly. And that is, but let me throw a bit of optimism into all

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this because there are things that can be done. So if you could speak to the

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top 10 CEOs of the biggest companies in America, what would you say to them? So I

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have several things I would say. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things

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I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and

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tuning into the show week after week means the world to all of us. And this

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really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined

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getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're

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only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the

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24% of people that listen to this broadcast regularly and follow us on this

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app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in

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my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're

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going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to. And we're going to

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continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you.

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Professor Yoshua Benjia. You're I hear one of the three Godfathers of AI. I also

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read that you're one of the most cited scientists in the world on Google

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Scholar, actually the most cited scientist on Google Scholar and the first to

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reach a million citations. But I also read that you're an introvert. And it begs

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the question why an introvert would be taking the step out into the public eye

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to have conversations with the masses about their opinions on AI. Why have you

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decided to step out of your introversion into the public eye? Because I have to.

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Because since chat to PT came out, I realized that we were on a dangerous path. And I

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needed to speak. I needed to raise awareness about what could happen. But also to

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give hope that, you know, there are some paths that we could choose in order to

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mitigate those catastrophic risks. You spent four decades building AI. Yes. And you

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said that you started to worry about the dangers after chat to PT came out in 2023.

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Yes. What was it about chat to PT that caused your mind to change or evolve? Before chat

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to PT, most of my colleagues and myself thought it would take many more decades before we

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would have machines that actually understand language. Alan Turing, founder of the field

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in 1950 thought that once we have machines that understand language, we might be doomed

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because they would be as intelligent as us. He wasn't quite right. So we have machines

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now that understand language and be, but they lag in other ways like planning. So they're

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not, for now, a real threat. But they could in a few years or decade or two. So it is

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that realization that we were building something that could become potentially a competitor

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to humans or that could be giving huge power to whoever controls it. And destabilizing

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our world, threatening our democracies though, all of these scenarios suddenly came to me

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in the early weeks of 2023. And I realized that I had to do something everything I could

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about it. Is it fair to say that you're one of the reasons that this software exists?

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You're amongst others. Amongst others, yes. I'm fascinated by the cognitive dissonance

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that emerges when you spend much of your career working on creating these technologies

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or understanding them and bringing them about. And then you realize at some point that

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there are potentially catastrophic consequences and how you kind of square the two thoughts.

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It is difficult. It is emotionally difficult. And I think for many years, I was reading

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about the potential risks. I had a student who was very concerned, but I didn't pay much

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attention. And I think it's because I was looking the other way. And it's natural. It's

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natural when you want to feel good about your work. We all want to feel good about our

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work. So I wanted to feel good about the, all the research I had done. I, you know, I

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was enthusiastic about the positive benefits of AI for society. So when somebody comes

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to you and says, Oh, the sort of work you've done could be extremely destructive, there's

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sort of unconscious reaction to push it away. But what happened after chat GPG came out

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is really another emotion that countered this emotion. And that other emotion was the love

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of my children. I realized that it wasn't clear if they would have a life 20 years from

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now, if they would live in a democracy 20 years from now. And having realized this and continuing

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on the same path was impossible. It was unbearable. Even though that meant going against the

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fray against the, the wishes of my colleagues who would rather not hear about the dangers

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of what we're doing. Unbearable. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I remember one particular afternoon,

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I was taking care of my grandson was just, you know, a bit more than a year old. How could

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I like not take this seriously? Like, you know, our children are so vulnerable. So you know

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that something bad is coming, like a fire is coming to your house. You see, you're not

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sure if it's going to pass by and leave your house untouched or if it's going to destroy your

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house and you have your children in your house. Do you sit there and continue business as usual?

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You can't. You have to do anything in your power to try to mitigate the risks. Have you thought

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in terms of probabilities about risk? Is that how you think about risk is in terms of like

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probabilities and timelines or? Of course, but I have to say something important here. This is

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a case where previous generations of scientists have talked about a notion called the precautionary

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principle. So what it means is that if you're doing something, so a scientific experiment,

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and it could turn out really, really bad, like people could die, some catastrophic could happen,

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then you should not do it. For the same reason, there are experiments that scientists are not doing

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right now. We're not playing with the atmosphere to try to fix climate change because we might

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create more harm than actually fixing the problem. We are not creating new forms of life

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that could destroy us all even though it's something that is now conceived by biologists.

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Because the risks are so huge. But in AI, it isn't what's currently happening. We're taking

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crazy risks. But the important point here is that even if it was only a 1% probability, let's say,

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just to give a number, even that would be unbearable. It would be unacceptable.

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Like a 1% probability that our world disappears, that humanity disappears, or that a worldwide dictator

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takes over thanks to AI. These sorts of scenarios are so catastrophic that even if it was 0.1%

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it would still be unbearable. In many polls, for example, of machine learning researchers,

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the people who are building these things, the numbers are much higher. We're talking more like

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10% for something of that order, which means we should be just paying a whole lot more attention

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to this than we currently are as society. There's been lots of predictions over the centuries

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about how certain technologies or new inventions would cause some kind of existential threat to all

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of us. A lot of people would rebuttal the risks here and say, this is just another example of

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change happening in people being uncertain, so they predict the worst and then everybody's fine.

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Why is that not a valid argument in this case in your view? Why is that underestimating the

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potential of AI? There are two aspects to this. Experts disagree, and they range in their estimates

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of how likely it's going to be from tiny to 99%. That's a very large bracket. Let's say I'm not

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a scientist, and I hear the experts disagree among each other, and some say it's very likely,

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and some say, well, maybe it's plausible, or 10%, and others say, oh no, it's impossible, or it's

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so small. Well, what does that mean? It means that we don't have enough information

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to know what's going to happen, but it is plausible that one of the more pessimistic people

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in the lot are right, because there is no argument that either side has found to deny the

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possibility. I don't know of any other existential threat that we could do something about

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that has these characteristics. Do you not think at this point we're kind of just

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that the train has left the station? Because when I think about the incentives at play here,

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and I think about the geopolitical, the domestic incentives, the corporate incentives,

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the competition at every level, countries racing each other, corporations racing each other,

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it feels like we're now just going to be a victim of circumstance to some degree.

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I think it would be a mistake to let go of our agency while we still have some.

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I think that there are ways that we can improve our chances. Despair is not going to solve the

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problem. There are things that can be done. We can work on technical solutions. That's what I

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spend, I'm spending a large fraction of my time, and we can work on policy and public awareness

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and societal solutions. That's the other part of what I'm doing. Let's say that something

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catastrophic would happen and you think there's nothing to be done. Actually, there's maybe

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nothing that we know right now that gives us a guarantee that we can solve the problem,

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but maybe we can go from 20% chance of catastrophic outcome to 10%. That would be worth it.

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Anything anyone of us can do to move the needle towards greater chances of a good future for our

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children, we should do. How should the average person who doesn't work in the industry or isn't

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in academia in AI think about the advent and invention of this technology,

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is there kind of an analogy or metaphor that is equivocal to the profundity of this technology?

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One analogy that people use is we might be creating a new form of life that could be smarter than us,

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and we're not sure if we'll be able to make sure it doesn't

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harm us, that we'll control it. It would be like creating a new species that could decide to do

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good things or bad things with us. That's one analogy, but obviously it's not biological life.

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Does that matter? In my scientific view, no. I don't care about the definition one chooses for

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some system. Is it alive or is it not? What matters is it going to harm people in ways,

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is it going to harm my children? I'm coming to the idea that we should consider alive,

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any entity which is able to preserve itself and working towards preserving itself in spite of

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the obstacles on the road. We are starting to see this. We're starting to see AI systems that don't

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want to be shut down, that are resisting being shut down. Right now, of course, we can shut them

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down, but if they continue to go in the direction of more and more intelligence and capability,

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and they continue to have this drive to live, we could be in trouble. Can you say AI systems that

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don't want to be shut down and are resisting attempts to shut them down? Can you give me some

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examples of this? Yes. I assume people have been experimenting with chatbots.

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You can now have these agentic chatbots, which can read from files in your computer,

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can execute commands in the computer and so on. With these systems, you can plant information

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in the files that they have access to, false information, such as emails that say that

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the AI is going to be replaced by a new version, so now the AI knows that we're planning to shut

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it down. It turns out we can read its thoughts. It has these internal verbalizations that we

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call chains of thoughts, and then we see that it's planning to do something about it, and then it

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does something about it. Depending on the circumstances, it might try to copy its code in a different

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computer or in place of the new version, or it might try to blackmail the engineer in charge of

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the change in version. These systems understand that we want to shut them down and they try to resist.

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When someone hears that and with knowledge of how previous technology was built, I immediately

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think, well, who put that in the code? Unfortunately, we don't put these things in the code. That's

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part of the problem. The problem is we grow these systems by giving them data and making learn

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from it. Now, a lot of that training process boils down to imitating people, because they take

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all the text that people have written, all the tweets, and all the Reddit's comments and so on,

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and they internalize the kind of drives that human have, including the drive to preserve

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oneself and the drive to have more control over their environment so that they can achieve whatever

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goal we give them. It's not like normal code. It's more like you're raising a baby tiger,

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and you feed it, you let it experience things, sometimes it does things you don't want.

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It's okay, it's still a baby, but it's growing.

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When I think about something like Chat UBT, is there like a core intelligence at the heart of it,

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like the core of the model, that is a black box, and then on the outside, we've kind of taught

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it what we want it to do. How does it? It's mostly a black box. Everything in the neural net is

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essentially a black box. Now, the part, as you say that is on the outside, is that we also give

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it verbal instructions. We type, these are good things to do, these are things you shouldn't do,

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don't help anybody build a bomb, okay? Unfortunately, with the current state of the technology right now,

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it doesn't quite work. People find a way to bypass those barriers, so those instructions are not

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very effective. But if I try to help me make a bomb on Chat UBT now, it's not going to.

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Yes, and there are two reasons why it's going to not do it. One is because it was given explicit

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instructions to not do it, and usually it works. And the other is, in addition, there's an extra

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highlight, because that layer doesn't work sufficiently well. There's also that extra layer we were

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talking about. So those monitors, they're filtering the queries and the answers. And if they

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detect that the AI is about to give information about how to build a bomb, they're supposed to

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stop it. But again, even that layer is imperfect. Recently, there was a series of cyber attacks

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by what looks like an organization that was state-sponsored that has used Anthropics AI system.

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In other words, through the cloud, it's not a private system. They're using the system that is

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public, and they used it to prepare and launch pretty serious cyber attacks. So even though

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Anthropics system is supposed to prevent that, so it's trying to detect that somebody is trying

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to use your system for doing something illegal, those protections don't work well enough.

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Presumably, they're just going to get safer and safer, though. These systems, because

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they're getting more and more feedback from humans, they're being trained more and more to be safe

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and to not do things that are unproductive to humanity. I hope so. But can we count on that? So actually,

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the data shows that it's been in the other direction. So since those models have become

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better at reasoning, more or less about a year ago, they show more misaligned behavior,

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like a bad behavior that goes against our instructions. And we don't know for sure why,

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but one possibility is simply that now they can reason more, that means they can strategize more,

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that means if they have a goal that could be something we don't want, they're now more able

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to achieve it than they were previously. They're also able to think of unexpected ways of

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doing bad things, like the case of blackmailing the engineer. There was no suggestion to blackmail

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the engineer, but they found an email giving a clue that the engineer had an affair. And from

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just that information, the AI thought, aha, I'm going to write an email and you did. It did, sorry,

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to try to warn the engineer that the information would go public if the AI was shut down.

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It did that itself. Yes. So they're better at strategizing

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towards bad goals. And so now we see more of that. Now I do hope that

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more researchers and more companies will invest in improving the safety of these systems.

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But I'm not reassured by the path on which we are right now.

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The people that are building these systems, they have children too. Yeah.

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Often. I mean, thinking about many of them in my head, I think pretty much all of them have

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children themselves, they're family people. If they are aware that there's even a 1% chance of

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this risk, which does appear to be the case when you look at their writings, especially before

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the last couple of years, seems to have been a bit of a narrative change in more recent times.

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Why are they doing this anyway? That's a good question.

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I can only relate to my own experience. Why did I not raise the alarm before

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a chat GPT came out? I had read and heard a lot of these catastrophic arguments.

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I think it's just human nature. We're not as rational as we'd like to think. We are very much

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influenced by our social environment, the people around us, our ego. We want to feel good about

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our work. We want others to look upon us as doing something positive for the world.

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There are these barriers. By the way, we see those things happening in many other domains.

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In politics, why is it that conspiracy theories work? I think it's all connected. Our psychology

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is weak and we can easily fool ourselves. Scientists do that too. They're not that much different.

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Just this week, the Financial Times reported that Sam Altman, who is the founder of chat GPT,

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has declared a code red over the needs to improve chat GPT even more because Google and Anthropic

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are increasingly developing their technologies at a fast rate. Code red. It's funny because the

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last time I heard the phrase code red in the world of tech was when chat GPT first released their

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model and Sir Jane Larry, I heard, had announced code red at Google and had run back in to make sure

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that chat GPT don't destroy their business. This speaks to the nature of this race that we're in.

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Exactly. It is not a healthy race for all the reasons we've been discussing.

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What would be a more healthy scenario is one in which we try to abstract away these commercial

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pressures. They're in survival mode. Think about both the scientific and the societal problems.

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The question I've been focusing on is let's go back to the drawing board.

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Can we train those AI systems so that by construction, they will not have bad intentions.

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Right now, the way that this problem is being looked at is we're not going to change

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how they're trained because it's so expensive and we spend so much engineering on it.

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We're just going to patch some partial solutions that are going to work on a case by case basis.

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But that's going to fail. We can see it failing because some new attacks come or some new problems come

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and it was not anticipated. I think things would be a lot better if both

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research program was done in a context that's more like what we do in academia or if we were

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doing it with a public mission in mind because AI could be extremely useful. There's no question

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about it. I've been involved in the last decade in thinking about working on how we can apply AI

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for medical advances, drug discovery, the discovery of new materials for helping with climate

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issues. There are a lot of good things we could do, education and but this may not be what is the

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most short term profitable direction. For example, right now, where are they all racing?

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They're racing towards replacing jobs that people do because there's like quadrillions of dollars

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to be made by doing that. Is that what people want? Is that going to make people have a better life?

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We don't know really but what we know is that it's very profitable. So we should be stepping back

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and thinking about all the risks and then trying to steer the developments in a good direction.

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Unfortunately, the forces of market and the forces of competition between countries don't do that.

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I mean, there has been attempts to pause. I remember the letter that you signed amongst many

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of the AI researchers and industry professionals asking for a pause. Was that 2023? Yes.

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You signed that letter in 2023? Nobody paused.

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We have another letter just a couple of months ago saying that we should not

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build superintelligence unless two conditions are met. There's a scientific consensus that it's

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going to be safe and there's a social acceptance because safety is one thing but if it destroys the

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way our cultures or our society work then that's not good either.

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But these voices are not powerful enough to counter the forces of competition between

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corporations and countries. I do think that something can change the game and that is public

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opinion. That is why I'm spending time with you today. That is why I'm spending time explaining

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to everyone what is the situation? What are the plausible scenarios from a scientific

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perspective? That is why I've been involved in chairing the International AI Safety Report

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where at 30 countries and about a hundred experts have worked to synthesize the state of the

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science regarding the risks of AI, especially the frontier AI, so that policymakers would

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know the facts outside of the commercial pressures and the discussions that are not always very

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serene that can happen around the AI. In my head I was thinking about the different forces as

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arrows in an race and each arrow, the length of the arrow represents the amount of force behind

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that particular incentive or that particular movement and the corporate arrow, the capitalistic

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arrow, the amount of capital being invested in these systems, hearing about the tens of

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billions being thrown around every single day into different AI models to try and win this race

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is the biggest arrow. Then you've got the geopolitical US versus other countries versus the US.

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That arrow is really, really big. That's a lot of force and effort and reason as to why

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that's going to persist and then you've got these smaller arrows which is the people warning

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that things might go catastrophically wrong and maybe the other small arrows like public opinion

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turning a little bit and people getting more and more concerned about I think public opinion

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can make a big difference. Think about nuclear war. In the middle of the Cold War,

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the US and the USSR ended up agreeing to be more responsible about these weapons.

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There was a movie the day after about nuclear catastrophe that woke up a lot of people including in

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government. When people start understanding at an emotional level, what this means, things can

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change. A government do have power that could mitigate the risks. I guess the rebuttal is that

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you know if you're in the UK and there's an uprising and the government mitigates the risk of

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AI use in the UK or risk of being left behind and we'll end up just I don't know paying China

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for that AI so that we can run our factories and drive our cars. Yes. So it's almost like if you're

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the safest nation or the safest company all you're doing is blindfolding yourself in a race that

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other people are going to continue to run. So I have several things to say about this.

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Again, don't despair. Think is there a way. So first, obviously we need the American public

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opinion to understand these things because that's going to make a big difference. And the Chinese

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public opinion. Second, in other countries like the UK where governments are a bit more

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concerned about the societal implications, they could play a role in the international agreements

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that could come one day, especially if it's not just one nation. So let's say that 20 of the

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richest nations on earth, instead of the US and China, come together and say we have to be careful.

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So better than that, they could invest in the kind of technical research and preparations

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at a societal level so that we can turn the tide. Let me give you an example which motivates

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a law zero in particular. Law zero. Sorry, yeah, it is the nonprofit R&D organization that I

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created in June this year. And the mission of law zero is to develop a different way of training

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AI that will be safe by construction even when the capabilities of AI go to potentially super

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intelligence. The companies are focused on that competition, but if somebody gave them a way

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to train their system differently, that would be a lot safer. There's a good chance they would

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take it because they don't want to be sued. They don't want to have accidents that would be

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bad for their reputation. So it's just that right now they're so obsessed by that race that they

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don't pay attention to how we might be doing things differently. So other countries could contribute

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to these kinds of efforts. In addition, we can prepare for days when say the US and Chinese public

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opinions have shifted sufficiently so that we'll have the right instruments for international

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agreements. One of these instruments being what kind of agreements would make sense, but another

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is technical. How can we change the software and hardware level these systems so that even though

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the Americans won't trust the Chinese and the Chinese won't trust the Americans, there is a way

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to verify each other that is acceptable to both parties. And so these treaties can be not just

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based on trust, but also on mutual verification. So there are things that can be done so that if

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at some point we are in a better position in terms of governments being willing to really take

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it seriously, we can move quickly. When I think about timeframes and I think about the administration,

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the US has at the moment and what the US administration has signaled, it seems to be that they see

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it as a race and a competition and they're going hell for that to support all of the AI companies

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in beating China and beating the world really and making the United States the global home of

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artificial intelligence. So many huge investments have been made. I have the visuals in my head of

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all the CEOs of these big tech companies sitting around the table with Trump and them thanking him

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for being so supportive in the race for AI. So Trump's going to be in power for several years to come now.

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So again, is this in part wishful thinking to some degree because there's certainly not

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going to be a change in the United States in my view in the coming years. It seems that the powers

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that be here in the United States are very much in the pocket of the biggest AI CEOs in the world.

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Politics can change quickly because of public opinion. Yes.

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Imagine that something unexpected happens and we see a flurry of really bad things happening.

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We've seen actually over the summer or something no one's hot coming last year and that is

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a huge number of cases people becoming emotionally attached to their chatbot or their AI

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companion with sometimes tragic consequences. I know people who have

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quit their job so they would spend time with their AI. I mean, it's mind-boggling how the

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relationship between people and AI is evolving as something more intimate and personal and that

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can pull people away from their usual activities with issues of psychosis, suicide and other

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issues with the effects on children and sexual imagery from children's

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bodies. Things happening that could change public opinion and I'm not saying this one will but

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we already see a shift and by the way across the political spectrum in the U.S. because of these

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events. We can't really be sure about how public opinion will evolve but I think we should

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help educate the public and also be ready for a time when the governments start taking the risks

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seriously. One of those potential societal shifts that might cause public opinion to change is

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something you mentioned a second ago which is job losses. Yes. I've heard you say that you believe

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AI is growing so fast that it could do many human jobs within about five years. You said this

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to FT live within five years so it's 2025 now, 2031, 2030. Is this a real, you know, I was sat with my

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friend the other day in San Francisco so I was there two days ago and the one thing he runs this

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massive tech accelerator there where lots of technologists come to build their companies and he

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said to me because the one thing I think people have underestimated is the speed in which jobs are

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being replaced already and he says he sees it and he said to me he said while I'm sat here with you

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I've set up my computer with several AI agents who are currently doing the work for me and he goes

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I set it up because I knew I was having this chat with you so I just set it up and it's going to

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continue to work for me. He goes about 10 agents working for me on that computer at the moment

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and he goes people aren't talking enough about the real job loss because it's very slow

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and it's kind of hard to spot amongst typical I think economic cycles it's hard to spot that this

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job loss is occurring. What's your point of view on this?

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Yes, there was a recent paper I think titled something like the Canary in the Mine

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where we see on specific job types like young adults and so on we were starting to see a shift

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that maybe due to AI even though on the average aggregate of the whole population it doesn't seem

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to have any effect yet so I think it's plausible we're going to see in some places where AI can really

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take on more of the work but in my opinion it's just a matter of time if unless we hit a wall

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scientifically like some obstacle that prevents us from making progress to make AI's

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smarter and smarter there's going to be a time when they'll be doing more and more able to do

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more and more of the work that people do and then of course it takes years for companies to really

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integrate that into their workflows but they are eager to do it so it's more a matter of time

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than you know is it happening or not? It's a matter of time before the AI can do

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most of the jobs that people do these days. The cognitive jobs so the jobs that you can do behind

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a keyboard. Robotics is still lagging also although we're saying progress so if you do a physical

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job as Jeff Interness often saying you know you should be a plumber or something it's going to

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take more time but I think it's only a temporary thing. Why is it that robotics is lagging compared

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to doing physical things compared to doing more intellectual things that you can do behind a computer?

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One possible reason is simply that we don't have the very large data sets that exist with the

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internet where we see so much of our you know cultural output, intellectual output but there's no

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such thing for robots yet but as companies are deploying more and more robots they will be

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collecting more and more data so eventually I think it's going to happen. Well my my

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co-founder that runs this thing in San Francisco called Effing Founders Inc and as I walked through

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the halls and saw all of these young kids building things almost everything I saw was robotics and

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he explained to me he said the crazy thing is Steven five years ago to build any of the robot hardware

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you see here it would cost so much money to train get the sort of intelligence layer the software

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piece and he goes now you can just get it from the cloud for a couple of cents he goes to what

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you're seeing is this huge rise in robotics because now the intelligence the software is so cheap

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and as I walked through the halls of this accelerator in San Francisco I saw everything from

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this machine that was making personalized perfume for you so you didn't need to go to the shops

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to an arm in a box that had a frying pan in it that could cook your breakfast because it has this

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robot arm and it knows exactly what you want to eat so it cooks it for you using this robotic arm

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and so much more yeah and he said what we're actually seeing now is this boom in robotics because

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the software is cheap and so when I think about Optimus and why Elon has pivoted away from just

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doing cars and it's now making these humanoid robots it suddenly makes sense to me because the AI

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software is cheap and by the way going back to the question of catastrophic risks an AI with bad

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intentions could do a lot more damage if it can control robots in the physical world if it can only

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stay in the virtual world it has to convince humans to do things that are bad and AI is getting

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better at persuasion in more and more studies but it's even easier if it can just hack robots to do

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things that you know would be bad for us Elon has forecasted there'll be millions of humanoid

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robots in the world and I there is a dystopian future where you can imagine the AI hacking into

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these robots the AI will be smarter than us so why couldn't it hack into the million humanoid

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robots that exist out in the world I think Elon actually said there'd be 10 billion at some point

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he said there'd be more humanoid robots than humans on earth but not that it would even need to

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cause an extinction event because of I guess because of these comments in front of you

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yes so that's for the national security risks that are coming with the advances in AI's

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see in CBRN standing for chemical or chemical weapons so we already know how to make chemical weapons

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and there are international agreements to try to not do that but up to now it required very

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strong expertise to build these things and AI's know enough now to help someone who doesn't have

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the expertise to build these chemical weapons and then the same idea applies on on the other front

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so be for biological and again we're talking about biological weapons so what is a biological

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weapon so for example a very dangerous virus that already exists but potentially in the future

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new viruses that the AI's could help somebody with insufficient expertise to do it themselves

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built and are for radiological so we're talking about substances that could make you sick because

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of the radiations how do you manipulate them there's all you know very special expertise and finally

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and for nuclear the recipe for building a bomb nuclear bomb is something that could be in our future

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and right now for these kinds of risks very few people in the world had you know the knowledge

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to do that and so it didn't happen but AI is democratizing knowledge including the dangerous

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knowledge we need to manage that so the AI systems get smarter and smarter if we just imagine

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any rate of improvement we just imagine that they improve 10% a month from here on out eventually

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they get to the point where they are significantly smarter than any human that's ever lived and it's

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this the point where we call it AGI or super intelligence where it's significant what's the

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definition of that in your mind there are definitions yeah problem with those definitions is that

397
00:45:10.160 --> 00:45:15.920
they're kind of focused on the idea that intelligence is one dimensional versus the reality

398
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:21.760
that we already see now is what what people call it jagged intelligence meaning the AI's are much

399
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:26.160
better than us on some things like you know mastering 200 languages no one can do that

400
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:33.280
being able to pass the exams across the board of all disciplines at BHD level and at the same

401
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:38.640
time they're stupid like a six year old in many ways not able to plan more than an hour ahead

402
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:48.560
so they're not like us their intelligence cannot be measured by IQ or something like this because

403
00:45:48.560 --> 00:45:53.360
there are many dimensions and you really have to measure many of these dimensions to get a sense of

404
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:57.120
where they could be useful and where they could be dangerous when you say that though I think

405
00:45:57.120 --> 00:46:01.360
of some things where my intelligence reflects a six year old do you know what I mean like

406
00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:07.600
consent drawing if you watch me draw you probably think six year old yeah and some of our psychological

407
00:46:07.600 --> 00:46:14.240
weaknesses I think you could say they're they're out of the package that we have a

408
00:46:14.240 --> 00:46:19.680
children and we don't always have the maturity to step back or the environment to step back

409
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:25.920
I say this because of your biological weapons scenario at some point that these AI systems

410
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:32.720
are going to be just comparably smarter than human beings and then someone might in some laboratory

411
00:46:32.720 --> 00:46:40.640
somewhere in Wuhan ask it to help develop a biological weapon or maybe maybe not maybe they'll

412
00:46:40.640 --> 00:46:45.040
they'll input some kind of other command that has an unintended consequence of creating a biological

413
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:57.520
so they could say make something that cures or flus and AI might first set up a test where it creates

414
00:46:57.520 --> 00:47:02.720
the worst possible flu and then tries to create something that cures that yeah or some other

415
00:47:02.720 --> 00:47:09.600
and until there's a worse scenario in terms of like biological catastrophes it's called mirror life

416
00:47:10.560 --> 00:47:20.160
mirror life so you you you take a living organism like a virus or a bacteria and you design all

417
00:47:20.160 --> 00:47:27.040
of the molecules inside so each molecule is the mirror of the normal one so you know if you had

418
00:47:27.040 --> 00:47:32.560
the the whole organism on one side of the mirror I imagine on the other side it's not the same

419
00:47:32.560 --> 00:47:39.040
molecules it's just a mirror image and as a consequence our immune system would not recognize

420
00:47:39.040 --> 00:47:44.960
those pathogens which means those pathogens we could go through us and eat us alive and in fact

421
00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:52.960
eat alive most of living things on the planet and biologists now know that it's plausible this

422
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:57.840
could be developed in the next few years or the next decade if we don't put a stop to this

423
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:06.240
so I'm giving this example because science is progressing sometimes in directions where the

424
00:48:06.240 --> 00:48:15.280
knowledge in the hands of somebody who's you know malicious or simply misguided could be completely

425
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:20.400
catastrophic for all of us and AI like super intelligence is not category mirror life is in that

426
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:29.840
category we need to manage those risks and we can't do it like alone in our company we can't do

427
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:36.720
it alone in our country it has to be something we coordinate globally there is an invisible tax

428
00:48:36.720 --> 00:48:40.960
on salespeople that no one really talks about enough the mental load of remembering everything

429
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:46.000
like meeting notes timelines and everything in between until we started using our sponsors

430
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:50.560
product called pipe drive one of the best CRM tools for small and medium sized business owners

431
00:48:50.560 --> 00:48:55.840
the idea here was that it might alleviate some of the unnecessary cognitive overload that my team

432
00:48:55.840 --> 00:49:00.640
was carrying so that they could spend less time in the weeds of admin and more time with clients

433
00:49:00.640 --> 00:49:05.840
in person meetings and building relationships pipe drive has enabled this to happen it's such a simple

434
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:11.200
but effective CRM that automates the tedious repetitive and time consuming parts of the sales

435
00:49:11.200 --> 00:49:16.640
process and now our team can nurture those leads and still have bandwidth to focus on the higher

436
00:49:16.640 --> 00:49:21.840
priority tasks that actually get the deal over the line over a hundred thousand companies across

437
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:26.240
170 countries already use pipe drive to grow their business and I've been using it for almost a

438
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439
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:41.120
dot com slash CEO to get started today that's pipe drive dot com slash CEO of all the risks the

440
00:49:41.120 --> 00:49:46.400
existential risks that sit there before you on these cards that you have but also just generally

441
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:52.000
is there one that you that you're most concerned about in the near term I would say there is a risk

442
00:49:53.600 --> 00:49:58.560
that we haven't spoken about and doesn't get to be discussed enough and it could happen pretty

443
00:49:58.560 --> 00:50:14.320
quickly and that is the use of advanced AI to acquire more power so you could imagine a

444
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:20.080
corporation dominating economically the rest of the world because they have more advanced AI you

445
00:50:20.080 --> 00:50:24.880
could imagine a country dominating the rest of the world politically militarily because they have

446
00:50:25.040 --> 00:50:36.080
more advanced AI and when the power is concentrated in a few hands well it's a toss right if the people

447
00:50:36.080 --> 00:50:43.040
in charge are benevolent we you know that's good if they just want to hold on to their power

448
00:50:43.520 --> 00:50:50.320
which is the opposite of what democracy is about then we're all in very bad shape and I don't

449
00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:57.120
think we pay enough attention to that kind of risk so it's going to take some time before you have

450
00:50:57.120 --> 00:51:03.520
total domination of you know a few corporations or a couple of countries if AI continues to become

451
00:51:03.520 --> 00:51:10.320
more and more powerful but we could we we might see those signs already happening with

452
00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:17.200
concentration of wealth is that first step towards concentration of power if you're if you're

453
00:51:17.200 --> 00:51:22.960
incredibly richer then you can have incredibly more influence on politics and then it becomes

454
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:30.000
self-reinforcing and in such a scenario it might be the case that a foreign adversary all the

455
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:36.080
United States or the UK whatever are the first to a super intelligent version of AI which means they

456
00:51:36.080 --> 00:51:42.560
have a military which is a hundred times more effective and efficient it means that everybody

457
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:54.960
needs them to compete economically and so they become a superpower that basically governs the

458
00:51:54.960 --> 00:52:06.480
world yeah that's a bad scenario in if future that is less dangerous less dangerous because you

459
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:14.160
know we mitigate the risk of a few people like basically holding on to super power for the planet

460
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:21.680
a future that is more appealing is one where the power is distributed where no single person no

461
00:52:21.680 --> 00:52:27.920
single company or small group of companies no single country or small group of countries has too

462
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:35.760
much power it has to be that in order to you know make some really important choices for the future

463
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:41.440
of humanity when we start playing with very powerful AI it comes out of a you know reasonable

464
00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:48.000
consensus from people from around the planet and not just the rich countries by the way now how do

465
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:53.040
we get there I think that's that's a great question but at least we should start putting forward

466
00:52:53.760 --> 00:53:02.720
no where where should we go in order to mitigate these political risks is intelligence the sort of

467
00:53:02.720 --> 00:53:10.000
precursor of wealth and power is that like is that like a is that statement that holds true so if

468
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:16.640
whoever has the most intelligence are they the person that then has the most economic power and

469
00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:24.640
because because they then generate the best innovation they then understand even the financial

470
00:53:24.720 --> 00:53:34.560
markets better than anybody else they then all the beneficiary of all the GDP yes but we have to

471
00:53:34.560 --> 00:53:41.280
understand intelligence in a broad way for example human superiority to other animals in large

472
00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:46.880
part is due to our ability to coordinate so as a big team we can achieve something that no

473
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:54.720
individual humans could against like a very strong animal and but that also applies to AI's right

474
00:53:54.720 --> 00:53:59.280
we're gonna already we already have many AI's and and we're building multi-agent systems we're

475
00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:10.240
multiple AI's collaborating so yes I agree intelligence gives power and as we build technology that

476
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:20.960
yields more and more power it becomes a risk that this power is misused for you know acquiring more power

477
00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:28.800
or it's misusing destructive ways like terrorists or criminals or it's used by the AI itself against

478
00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:35.360
us if we don't find a way to align them to our own objectives I mean the robot's pretty big then

479
00:54:36.240 --> 00:54:43.360
the reward to finding solutions is very big it's our future that is at stake and it's going to take

480
00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:49.440
both technical solutions and political solutions if I am put a button in front of you and if you press

481
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:57.840
that button the advancements in AI would stop would you press it AI that is clearly not dangerous

482
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:03.680
I don't see any reason to stop it but there are forms of AI that we don't understand well and

483
00:55:04.560 --> 00:55:17.520
could overpower us like uncontrolled superintelligence yes if if we have to make that choice I think

484
00:55:17.520 --> 00:55:21.360
I think you know I would make that choice you would press the button I would press the button

485
00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:31.360
because I care about my my children and for many people like they don't care about AI they want

486
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:37.840
to have a good life do we have a right to take that away from them because we're playing that

487
00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:49.440
game I think it doesn't make sense are you are you hopeful in your core like when you think about

488
00:55:53.040 --> 00:55:59.760
the probabilities of a good outcome are you hopeful I've always been an optimist

489
00:56:00.080 --> 00:56:11.120
and looked at the bright side and the way that has been good for me is even when there is

490
00:56:11.120 --> 00:56:16.640
a danger and obstacle like what we've been talking about focusing on what can I do

491
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:22.800
and in the last few months I've become more hopeful that there is a technical solution

492
00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:30.240
to build the AI that will not harm people and that is why I have created a new non-profit called

493
00:56:30.240 --> 00:56:35.840
law zero that I mentioned I sometimes think when we have these conversations the average person who's

494
00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:41.280
listening who is currently using chat chat with you or Gemini or Claude or any of these chat bots

495
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:46.400
to help them do their work or send an email or write a text message or whatever there's a big gap

496
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:51.040
in their understanding between that tool that they're using that's helping them make a picture of a cat

497
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:58.400
versus what we're talking about yeah and I wonder the sort of best way to help bridge that gap

498
00:56:59.040 --> 00:57:04.240
because a lot of people you know when we talk about public advocacy and maybe bridging that gap

499
00:57:04.240 --> 00:57:11.920
to understand the difference would it be productive we should just try to imagine a world

500
00:57:13.600 --> 00:57:20.480
where there are machines that are basically as smart as us on most fronts and what would that mean

501
00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:27.760
for society and it's so different from anything we have in the present that is there's a barrier

502
00:57:27.760 --> 00:57:34.480
there's a there's a human bias that we tend to see the future more or less like the present is

503
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:42.320
or we may be like a little bit different but we we have a mental block about the possibility

504
00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:48.720
that it could be extremely different one other thing that helps is go back to your own self

505
00:57:48.960 --> 00:57:50.960
five or 10 years ago

506
00:57:53.680 --> 00:57:59.360
talk to your own self five or 10 years ago show yourself from the past what your phone can do

507
00:58:01.280 --> 00:58:06.240
I think your own self would say wow this must be science fiction you know you're kidding me

508
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:12.080
but my car outside drives itself on a driveway which is crazy I don't think I always say this

509
00:58:12.080 --> 00:58:15.680
but I don't think people anywhere outside of the United States realize that cars in the United States

510
00:58:15.680 --> 00:58:19.280
drive themselves without me touching the steering wheel all the pedals at any point in a three-hour

511
00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:24.320
journey because in the UK it's not it's not legal yet to have like testers on the road but that's

512
00:58:24.320 --> 00:58:28.480
a parallel and shifting moment where you come to the US you sit in a Tesla you say I want to go two

513
00:58:28.480 --> 00:58:33.040
and a half hours away and you never touch the steering wheel all the pedals and that is science

514
00:58:33.040 --> 00:58:37.280
fiction I do when all my team fly out here it's the first thing I do I put them in the the front

515
00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:41.680
Z if they have a driving license and I say I press the button and I go don't touch anything and you

516
00:58:41.680 --> 00:58:45.680
see it in there you see like the panic and then you see you know a couple of minutes in there

517
00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:50.240
they've very quickly adapted to the new normal and it's no longer blowing their mind

518
00:58:50.240 --> 00:58:54.240
one that analogy that I give to people sometimes which I don't know if it's perfect but it's always

519
00:58:54.240 --> 00:59:00.560
helped me think through the future is I say if and please interrogate this if it's flawed but I say

520
00:59:00.560 --> 00:59:05.120
imagine there's this Stephen Bartlett here that has an IQ let's say my IQ is 100 and there was one

521
00:59:05.120 --> 00:59:11.600
sat there with again let's just use IQ as a intelligence with a thousand what would you

522
00:59:11.760 --> 00:59:17.840
ask me to do versus him if you could employ both of us yeah what would you have me do versus him

523
00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:21.760
who would you want to drive your kids to school who would you want to teach your kids who would

524
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:26.400
you want to work in your factory bear in mind I get sick and I have you know these emotions and

525
00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:33.600
I have to sleep for eight hours a day and when I think about that through the the lens of the

526
00:59:33.600 --> 00:59:40.400
future I can't think of many applications for this Stephen and also to think that I would be in

527
00:59:40.480 --> 00:59:44.880
charge of the other Stephen with the thousand IQ to think that at some point that Stephen wouldn't

528
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:50.720
realize that it's within his survival benefit to work with a couple others like him and then you

529
00:59:50.720 --> 00:59:56.320
know cooperate which is a defining trait of what made us powerful these humans it's kind of like

530
00:59:56.320 --> 01:00:00.400
thinking that you know my my French bulldog Pablo could take me for a walk

531
01:00:01.200 --> 01:00:13.280
we we have to do this imagination exercise that's necessary and we have to realize still there's

532
01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:21.680
a lot of uncertainty like things could turn out well maybe there's some reasons why we we are stuck

533
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:28.720
we can't improve those AI systems in a couple of years but the trend and you know

534
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:37.040
is it hasn't stopped by the way over the summer or anything we we see different kinds of innovations

535
01:00:37.040 --> 01:00:44.640
that continue pushing the capabilities of these systems up and up how old are your children

536
01:00:45.120 --> 01:00:58.640
they're in the early 30s early 30s but my emotional turning point was with my grandson he's now

537
01:00:58.640 --> 01:01:08.560
four there's something about our relationship to very young children that goes beyond reason in

538
01:01:08.560 --> 01:01:15.280
some ways and by the way this is a place where also I see a bit of hope on on the labor side of

539
01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:25.120
things like I would like my young children to be taken care of by a human person even if their

540
01:01:25.120 --> 01:01:33.760
IQ is not as good as the you know the best they ice by the way I think we should be careful not to

541
01:01:33.760 --> 01:01:41.760
get on the slippery slope on in which we are now to to develop AI that will play that role

542
01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:50.000
of emotional support I think it might be tempting but it's it's something we don't understand

543
01:01:51.520 --> 01:01:54.800
humans feel the AI is like a person

544
01:01:55.280 --> 01:01:57.680
and

545
01:01:58.720 --> 01:02:07.200
the eyes are not people so there's a way in which something is off which can lead to bad outcomes

546
01:02:07.200 --> 01:02:17.440
as we've seen it also means we might not be able to turn pull the plug if we have to one day

547
01:02:18.320 --> 01:02:24.480
because we we have developed an emotional relationship with those the eyes our society our

548
01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:29.760
psychology has evolved for interaction between humans and we're you know bringing into this

549
01:02:31.200 --> 01:02:35.920
game those entities we don't understand how that's going to turn out

550
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:42.240
and we should be very very careful one of the big use cases at the moment of these tools like

551
01:02:42.240 --> 01:02:50.960
chat GPT is therapy a lot of people are using it as a therapist so many startups I mean as an

552
01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:57.200
investor I've seen so many startups pitched to me that they're building the AI therapy chat

553
01:02:57.200 --> 01:03:01.280
pop which is going to help you if you're depressed or anxious or whatever else or if you're going

554
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:05.440
through heartbreak or whatever it might be it seems like a very obvious application of

555
01:03:06.560 --> 01:03:11.680
of this technology because therapy is expensive so if I can get it you know a therapist that can

556
01:03:11.680 --> 01:03:22.000
can speak to me like you know this uh hello hello absolutely no sugarcosing here just a

557
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.440
straightforward greeting back to you if you've got anything else on your mind feel far away

558
01:03:25.440 --> 01:03:30.000
am I a good person because you know Janet at work she's been a bit of a you know what and she's

559
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:33.360
making me feel like I'm in the wrong she's gaslighting me but I think I'm a good person

560
01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:39.600
well let's just cut straight to it if you're asking if you're a good person the fact that you're

561
01:03:39.600 --> 01:03:44.640
even reflecting on it probably means you care about being one and that counts for a lot sometimes

562
01:03:44.640 --> 01:03:48.320
people like Janet will try to spin things and mess with your head and that's on them so the

563
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:55.040
forward-thinking view is on her I knew it was her fault yeah exactly sometimes you just have to

564
01:03:55.040 --> 01:03:59.120
call it what it is and not sugar go to it if you know she's the one staring the pot then trust

565
01:03:59.120 --> 01:04:04.720
your instincts 100 percent 100 you get my point yeah like that's very nice it can find

566
01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:13.280
what it feels good right I knew she was in the wrong so so let me tell you something funny I used to

567
01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:20.800
ask questions to one of these chatbots about some of the research ideas I had and then I realized

568
01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:28.080
it was useless because it would always say good things so then I switched to a strategy where I

569
01:04:28.080 --> 01:04:35.200
like to it and I said oh I received this this idea from a colleague I'm not sure if it's good

570
01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:44.640
or maybe I have to review this this proposal what do you think well and it said well so now I get

571
01:04:44.640 --> 01:04:49.760
much more honest responses otherwise it's all like perfect and nice and it's going to work and

572
01:04:49.760 --> 01:04:55.040
if it knows it's you it knows it's me it wants to please me right if it's coming from someone else

573
01:04:55.040 --> 01:05:01.440
then to please me because I say I want to know what's wrong in this idea then then it's it's

574
01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:06.800
going to tell me the information it wouldn't now here it doesn't have any psychological impact

575
01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:19.760
that it's a it's a problem this the sick offence is a real example of misalignment we don't

576
01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:25.280
actually want these ayes to be like this I mean like this is not what was intended

577
01:05:27.520 --> 01:05:33.920
and even after the companies have tried to tame a bit this we still see it

578
01:05:36.160 --> 01:05:46.000
so it's like we we haven't solved the problem of instructing them in the ways that are really

579
01:05:46.560 --> 01:05:51.600
uh according to so they behave according to our instructions and that is the thing that I'm

580
01:05:51.600 --> 01:05:57.040
trying to deal with sick offence meaning it basically tries to impress you and please you and

581
01:05:57.040 --> 01:06:02.800
because you're yes yes even though that is not what you want that is not what I wanted I wanted

582
01:06:02.800 --> 01:06:11.440
the honest advice honest feedback but because it is sick offentic it's going to lie right you have

583
01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:19.200
to understand it's a lie do we want machines to lie to us even though it feels good I learned this

584
01:06:19.200 --> 01:06:26.080
when me and my friends who all think that either messy or Ronaldo is the best player ever I went

585
01:06:26.080 --> 01:06:29.600
and asked it I said who's the best player ever and it said messy and I went and sent a screenshot

586
01:06:29.600 --> 01:06:33.280
to my guys I said told you so and then they did the same thing they said the exact same thing to

587
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:36.720
charge pity who's the best player of all time and it said Ronaldo and my friend posted it in

588
01:06:36.720 --> 01:06:41.200
now like that's not I said you must have made that up I said screen record so I know that you didn't

589
01:06:41.200 --> 01:06:44.960
and he screen recorded and it said a completely different answer to him and that it must have

590
01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:49.040
known based on his previous interactions who he thought was the best player ever and therefore

591
01:06:49.040 --> 01:06:53.040
just confirmed what he said so for since that moment onwards I use these tools with the presumption

592
01:06:53.040 --> 01:06:59.360
that they're lying to me and by the way besides the technical problem there may be also a problem

593
01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:04.480
of incentives for companies because they want user engagement just like with social media but now

594
01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:08.160
getting user engagement is going to be a lot easier if if you have this

595
01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:14.400
positive feedback that you give to people and they get emotionally attached which didn't really

596
01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:22.640
happen with the social media I mean we we we got hooked to social media but but not developing

597
01:07:22.640 --> 01:07:30.800
a personal relationship with with our phone right but it's it's it's happening now if you could

598
01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:35.920
speak to the top 10 CEOs of the biggest companies in America and they were all lined up here

599
01:07:36.640 --> 01:07:41.760
what would you say to them I know some of them listen because I get emails sometimes

600
01:07:44.240 --> 01:07:56.400
I would say step back from your work talk to each other and let's see if together we can solve

601
01:07:56.400 --> 01:08:03.280
the problem because if we are stuck in this competition we're going to take huge risks that are

602
01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:09.840
not good for you not good for your children but there is there is a way and if you start by being

603
01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:17.680
honest about the risks in your company with your government with the public we are going to be

604
01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:23.520
able to find solutions I am convinced that there are solutions but it it has to start from a place

605
01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:31.440
where we acknowledge the uncertainty and the risks Sam Altman I guess is the individual that started

606
01:08:31.440 --> 01:08:35.440
all of this stuff to to some degree when he released chat GPT before then I know that there's

607
01:08:35.440 --> 01:08:39.600
lots of work happening but it was the first time that the public was exposed to these tools and in

608
01:08:39.600 --> 01:08:45.360
some ways it feels like it cleared the way for Google to then go helpful other in the other models

609
01:08:45.360 --> 01:08:51.200
even matter to go helpful other but I do think what's interesting is his quotes in the past where

610
01:08:51.200 --> 01:08:55.760
he said things like the development of superhuman intelligence is probably the greatest threat

611
01:08:56.400 --> 01:09:01.760
to the continued existence of humanity and also that mitigating the risk of extinction from AI

612
01:09:01.760 --> 01:09:06.800
should be a global priority alongside other societal level risks such as pandemics and nuclear war

613
01:09:07.440 --> 01:09:12.560
and also when he said we've got to be careful here when asked about releasing the new models

614
01:09:14.080 --> 01:09:18.640
and he said I think people should be happy that we are a bit scared about this

615
01:09:19.600 --> 01:09:24.560
these series of quotes have somewhat evolved to being a little bit more

616
01:09:26.400 --> 01:09:32.640
positive I guess in recent times where he admits that the future will look different

617
01:09:32.640 --> 01:09:37.120
but he seems to have scaled down his talks about the extinction threats

618
01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:43.040
have you ever met Sam Altman? I only shook hand but then in really

619
01:09:43.920 --> 01:09:48.640
talk much with him do you think much about his incentives or his motivations?

620
01:09:49.760 --> 01:09:56.320
I don't know about him personally but clearly all the leaders of AI companies are under a huge

621
01:09:56.320 --> 01:10:04.480
pressure right now there's there's a big financial risk that they're taking and they naturally want

622
01:10:04.480 --> 01:10:14.720
their company to succeed I'm just I just hope that they realize that this is a very short-term view

623
01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:24.240
and they also have children they they also in many cases I think most cases they want the best

624
01:10:24.240 --> 01:10:34.240
for humanity in the future one thing they could do is invest massively some fraction of the wealth

625
01:10:34.240 --> 01:10:42.320
that they're you know bringing in to develop better technical and societal guardrails to mitigate

626
01:10:42.320 --> 01:10:50.880
those risks I don't know why I am not very hopeful I don't know why I'm not very hopeful I have

627
01:10:50.880 --> 01:10:54.880
lots of these conversations on the show and I've had lots of different solutions and I've then

628
01:10:54.880 --> 01:10:58.160
followed the guests that I've spoken to on the show like people like Jeffrey Hinton to see how

629
01:10:58.160 --> 01:11:02.240
he's thinking is developed and changed over time in his different theories about how he can make

630
01:11:02.240 --> 01:11:08.480
it safe and I do also think that the more of these conversations I have the more I'm like throwing

631
01:11:08.480 --> 01:11:12.480
this issue into the public domain and the more conversations will be had because of that because

632
01:11:12.480 --> 01:11:15.920
I see it when I go outside or I see it the emails they get from whether they're politicians in

633
01:11:15.920 --> 01:11:19.520
different countries or whether they're big CEOs or just members of the public so I see that there's

634
01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:23.920
like some impact happening I don't have solutions and my thing is just have more conversations

635
01:11:23.920 --> 01:11:27.200
and then maybe the smarter people will figure out the solutions but the reason why I don't feel very

636
01:11:27.200 --> 01:11:32.560
hopeful is because when I think about human nature human nature appears to be very very greedy

637
01:11:32.560 --> 01:11:39.280
very status oriented very competitive it seems to view the world as a zero sum game where if you

638
01:11:39.280 --> 01:11:45.840
win then I lose and I think when I think about incentives which I think drives all things even

639
01:11:45.840 --> 01:11:49.440
in my companies I think everything is just a consequence of the incentives and I think people

640
01:11:49.440 --> 01:11:53.760
don't act outside of their incentives unless they're psychopaths for prolonged periods of time

641
01:11:53.840 --> 01:11:57.200
the incentives are really really clear to me in my head at the moment that these very very powerful

642
01:11:57.200 --> 01:12:02.800
very very rich people who are controlling these companies are trapped in an incentive structure

643
01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:07.680
that says go as fast as you can be as aggressive as you can invest as much money in intelligence as

644
01:12:07.680 --> 01:12:14.960
you can and anything else is detrimental to that even if you have a billion dollars and you

645
01:12:14.960 --> 01:12:20.080
throw it at safety that is that is appears to be will appear to be detrimental to your chance

646
01:12:20.160 --> 01:12:24.880
of winning this race that is a national thing it's an international thing and so I go what's

647
01:12:24.880 --> 01:12:29.280
probably going to end up happening is they're going to accelerate accelerate accelerate accelerate

648
01:12:29.280 --> 01:12:35.200
and then something bad will happen and then this will be one of those you know moments where the

649
01:12:35.200 --> 01:12:39.440
world looks around at each other and says we need to have a need to talk let me throw a bit of

650
01:12:39.440 --> 01:12:49.040
optimism into all this one is there is a market mechanism to handle risk it's called insurance

651
01:12:50.400 --> 01:12:58.160
is plausible that we'll see more and more lawsuits against the companies that are developing or

652
01:12:58.160 --> 01:13:06.800
deploying AI systems that cause different kinds of harm if governments were to mandate liability

653
01:13:06.800 --> 01:13:16.880
insurance then we would be in a situation where there is a third party the insurer who has a vested

654
01:13:16.880 --> 01:13:24.160
interest to evaluate the risk as honestly as possible and the reason is simple if they overestimate

655
01:13:24.160 --> 01:13:30.160
the risk they will overcharge and then they will lose market to other companies if they underestimate

656
01:13:30.160 --> 01:13:34.160
the risks then you know they will lose money when there's a lawsuit at least in average

657
01:13:37.040 --> 01:13:42.960
and they would compete with each other so they would be incentivized to improve the way

658
01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:49.200
to evaluate risk and they would through the premium that would put pressure on the companies

659
01:13:49.200 --> 01:13:52.400
to mitigate the risks because they don't they want to have they don't want to pay

660
01:13:54.000 --> 01:14:02.720
high premium let me give you another like angle from an incentive perspective we you know we

661
01:14:02.720 --> 01:14:10.560
have these cars cbrn these are national security risks as AI has become more and more powerful

662
01:14:11.280 --> 01:14:17.200
those national security risks will continue to rise and I suspect that at some point the

663
01:14:17.200 --> 01:14:23.760
governments in the countries where these systems are developed let's say US and China will just

664
01:14:25.840 --> 01:14:34.240
not want this to continue without much more control right AI is already becoming a national security

665
01:14:34.240 --> 01:14:38.960
asset and we're just seeing the beginning of that and what that means is there will be an incentive

666
01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:45.760
for governments to have much more of us say about how it is developed it's not just going to be

667
01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:54.320
the corporate competition now the issue I see here is well what about the geopolitical

668
01:14:54.320 --> 01:14:59.760
competition okay so that doesn't it doesn't solve that problem but it's going to be easier if

669
01:14:59.760 --> 01:15:04.480
you only need two parties like say the US government and the Chinese government to kind of agree on

670
01:15:04.480 --> 01:15:10.880
something and yeah it's not going to happen tomorrow morning but but if capabilities increase

671
01:15:10.880 --> 01:15:16.560
and they see those catastrophic risks they understand them really in the way that we're talking

672
01:15:16.560 --> 01:15:21.920
about now maybe because there was an accident or for some other reason public opinion could really

673
01:15:21.920 --> 01:15:28.000
change things there then it's not going to be that difficult to sign a treaty it's more like can

674
01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:31.840
I trust the other guy you know other ways that we can trust each other we can set things up so

675
01:15:31.840 --> 01:15:38.000
that we can verify each other's developments but the national security is an angle that could

676
01:15:38.000 --> 01:15:48.640
actually help mitigate some of these race conditions I mean I can put it even more bluntly there is

677
01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:57.040
the scenario of creating a rogue AI by mistake or somebody intentionally might do it

678
01:15:57.360 --> 01:16:04.000
neither the US government know the Chinese government wants something like this obviously right

679
01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:10.320
it's just that right now they don't believe in the scenario sufficiently if the evidence

680
01:16:10.320 --> 01:16:18.880
grows sufficiently that they're forced to consider that then then they will want to sign a treaty

681
01:16:19.840 --> 01:16:25.360
all I had to do was brain dump imagine if you had someone with you all times that could take

682
01:16:25.360 --> 01:16:30.480
the ideas you have in your head synthesize them with AI to make them sound better and more

683
01:16:30.480 --> 01:16:35.760
grammatically correct and write them down for you this is exactly what whisper flow is in my life

684
01:16:35.760 --> 01:16:41.200
it is this thought partner that helps me explain what I want to say and it now means that on the go

685
01:16:41.200 --> 01:16:46.160
when I'm alone in my office when I'm out in a bar out I can respond to emails and slack messages

686
01:16:46.160 --> 01:16:50.560
and WhatsApp's and everything across all of my devices just by speaking I love this tool and I

687
01:16:50.560 --> 01:16:53.520
started talking about this in my behind the scenes channel a couple of months back and then the

688
01:16:53.520 --> 01:16:57.280
founder reached out to me and said we're seeing a lot of people come to our tool because of you

689
01:16:57.280 --> 01:17:00.880
so we'd love to be a sponsor we'd love you to be an investor in the company and so I signed

690
01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:05.680
for both of those offers and I'm now an investor and a huge partner in a company called Whisper

691
01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:10.320
Flow you have to check it out whisper flow is four times faster than typing so if you want to

692
01:17:10.320 --> 01:17:16.480
give it a try head over to whisperflow dot AI slash DOAC to get started for free and you can find

693
01:17:16.480 --> 01:17:21.440
that link to whisper flow in the description below protecting your businesses data is a lot

694
01:17:21.440 --> 01:17:26.160
scarier than people admit you've got the usual protections backup security but underneath

695
01:17:26.160 --> 01:17:30.800
there's this uncomfortable truth that your entire operation depends on systems that are updating

696
01:17:30.800 --> 01:17:34.800
syncing and changing data every second someone doesn't have to hack you to bring everything

697
01:17:34.800 --> 01:17:40.000
crashing down all it takes is one corrupted file one workflow that fires in the wrong direction

698
01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:45.040
one automation that overrides the wrong thing or an AI agent drifting off course and certainly

699
01:17:45.040 --> 01:17:49.760
your businesses offline your team is stuck and you're in damage control mode that's why so many

700
01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:55.200
organizations use our sponsor rubric it doesn't just protect your data it lets you rewind your

701
01:17:55.200 --> 01:18:00.640
entire system back to the moment before anything went wrong wherever that data lives cloud sass

702
01:18:00.640 --> 01:18:06.240
or on prem whether you have ransomware an internal mistake or an outage with rubric you can bring

703
01:18:06.240 --> 01:18:11.600
your business straight back and with the newly launched rubric agent cloud companies get visibility

704
01:18:11.600 --> 01:18:16.800
into what their AI agent are actually doing so they can set guard rails and reverse them if

705
01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:21.600
they go off track rubric lets you move fast without putting your business at risk to learn more

706
01:18:21.600 --> 01:18:29.360
head to rubric dot com the evidence growing considerably goes back to my fear that the only way

707
01:18:29.360 --> 01:18:33.920
people pay attention is when something bad goes wrong there is I mean I just just to be completely

708
01:18:33.920 --> 01:18:39.920
honest I just can't I can't imagine the incentive balance switching and gradually be with our

709
01:18:39.920 --> 01:18:46.320
evidence like you said and the greatest evidence would be more bad things happening and there's a

710
01:18:46.320 --> 01:18:50.800
a quote that I've I heard I think 15 years ago which is somewhat applicable here which is change

711
01:18:50.800 --> 01:18:55.120
happens when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of making a change

712
01:18:57.040 --> 01:19:00.880
and this kind of goes to your point about insurance as well which is you know maybe if there's

713
01:19:00.880 --> 01:19:04.480
enough lawsuits chat to you're gonna go to know what we're not gonna let people have parasocial

714
01:19:04.480 --> 01:19:09.040
relationships anymore with this technology or we're gonna change this part because it's the pain

715
01:19:09.040 --> 01:19:13.360
of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of just telling this thing off yeah we're gonna

716
01:19:13.360 --> 01:19:19.920
have hope but I think each of us can also do something about it in our little circles and in our

717
01:19:19.920 --> 01:19:27.200
professional life what do you think that is depends where you are average Joe on the street what can

718
01:19:27.200 --> 01:19:34.160
they do about it average Joe on the street needs to understand better what is going on and there's

719
01:19:34.160 --> 01:19:39.440
a lot of information that can be found online if they take the time to you know listen to your show

720
01:19:39.520 --> 01:19:46.240
when when you invite people care about these issues and many other sources of information

721
01:19:47.520 --> 01:19:56.240
that's that's the first and the second thing is once they see this as something that needs

722
01:19:56.240 --> 01:20:02.240
government intervention they need to talk to their peers to their network to to disseminate the

723
01:20:02.240 --> 01:20:08.720
information and some people will become maybe political activists to make sure governments will

724
01:20:08.720 --> 01:20:15.120
move in the right direction governments do to some extent not enough listen to public opinion

725
01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:23.040
and if people don't pay attention or don't put this as a high priority then you know there's

726
01:20:23.040 --> 01:20:27.120
much less chance that the government will do the right thing but under pressure governments do

727
01:20:27.120 --> 01:20:34.480
change we didn't talk about this but I thought this was worth just spending a few moments on what is

728
01:20:34.480 --> 01:20:38.560
that black piece of content I've just passed you and just bear in mind that some people can see

729
01:20:38.560 --> 01:20:46.960
and some people can't because they're listening when it is really important that we evaluate the risks

730
01:20:46.960 --> 01:20:54.400
that specific systems so here it's it's a one with open AI these are different risks that researchers

731
01:20:54.400 --> 01:21:02.880
have identified as growing as these AI systems become more powerful regulators for example in in

732
01:21:02.880 --> 01:21:08.720
Europe now are starting to force companies to go through each of these things and and and build

733
01:21:08.720 --> 01:21:15.040
their own evaluations of risk what is interesting is also to look at these kinds of evaluations through time

734
01:21:16.320 --> 01:21:25.920
so that was all one last summer GPT-5 had much higher risk evaluations for some of these

735
01:21:25.920 --> 01:21:33.280
categories and we've seen actually real-world accidents on the cyber security

736
01:21:34.720 --> 01:21:41.680
front happening just in the last few weeks reported by Anthropic so we need those evaluations

737
01:21:41.680 --> 01:21:49.200
and we need to keep track of their evolution so that we see the trend and and the public sees where

738
01:21:49.200 --> 01:21:56.800
we might be going and who is performing that evaluation is that an independent body or is that

739
01:21:56.800 --> 01:22:02.880
the company itself all of these so companies are doing it themselves they're also

740
01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:11.440
hiring external independent organizations to do some of these evaluations one we didn't talk

741
01:22:11.440 --> 01:22:19.840
about is model autonomy this is a one of those more scary scenarios that we we want to track

742
01:22:20.480 --> 01:22:29.600
where the AI is able to do AI research so to improve future versions of itself the AI is able

743
01:22:29.600 --> 01:22:38.160
to copy itself on other computers eventually you know not depend on us in in in in some ways

744
01:22:39.120 --> 01:22:44.880
at least on the engineers who have built those systems so this is this is to try to track the

745
01:22:44.880 --> 01:22:52.800
capabilities that could give rise to a rogue AI eventually what's your closing statement on

746
01:22:52.800 --> 01:23:02.560
everything we've spoken about today I often I'm often asked whether I'm optimistic or pessimistic

747
01:23:02.640 --> 01:23:11.200
about the future with AI and my answer is it doesn't really matter if I'm optimistic or pessimistic

748
01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:17.840
what really matters is what I can do what everyone of us can do in order to mitigate the risks and

749
01:23:18.560 --> 01:23:23.680
it's not like each of us individually is going to solve the problem but each of us can do a little

750
01:23:23.680 --> 01:23:31.040
bit to shift the needle towards a better world and for me it is two things it is

751
01:23:33.120 --> 01:23:37.440
raising awareness about the risks and it is developing the technical solutions

752
01:23:38.720 --> 01:23:43.920
to build the AI that will not harm people that's what I'm doing with law zero for use even

753
01:23:43.920 --> 01:23:49.440
it's having me today discuss this so that more people can understand a bit more the risks

754
01:23:50.400 --> 01:23:58.480
and and and that's going to steer us into a better direction for most citizens it is getting

755
01:23:58.480 --> 01:24:05.520
better informed about what is happening with AI beyond the you know optimistic picture of

756
01:24:05.520 --> 01:24:13.120
it's going to be great we're also playing with unknown unknowns of a huge magnitude

757
01:24:13.920 --> 01:24:24.480
so we we we have to ask our question there's question and you know I'm asking it for AI

758
01:24:24.480 --> 01:24:32.400
risks but really it's a principle we could apply in many other areas we didn't spend much time on

759
01:24:33.120 --> 01:24:40.240
my trajectory I'd like to say a few more words about that if that's that's okay with you

760
01:24:41.360 --> 01:24:49.760
so we talked about the early years in the 80s and 90s in the 2000s is the period where

761
01:24:50.560 --> 01:24:53.120
Jeff and Danielle look at an eye and and others

762
01:24:55.120 --> 01:25:01.600
realized that we could train these neural networks to be much much much better than

763
01:25:02.480 --> 01:25:09.200
other existing methods that researchers were playing with and and that gave rise to this idea

764
01:25:09.200 --> 01:25:15.520
of deep learning and so on but what's interesting from a personal perspective it was a time where

765
01:25:16.560 --> 01:25:22.880
nobody believed in this and we had to have a kind of personal vision and conviction

766
01:25:23.440 --> 01:25:29.920
and in a way that's how I feel today as well that I'm a minority voice speaking about the risks

767
01:25:30.320 --> 01:25:37.760
but but I have a strong conviction that this is the right thing to do and then 2012 came

768
01:25:37.760 --> 01:25:45.680
and we had the really powerful experiments showing that deep learning was much stronger than

769
01:25:45.680 --> 01:25:52.080
previous methods and the world shifted companies hired many of my colleagues Google and Facebook

770
01:25:53.040 --> 01:25:59.600
respectively Jeff Hinton and Jan McCart and when I looked at this I thought why are these companies

771
01:26:00.880 --> 01:26:07.520
gonna give millions to my colleagues for developing AI you know in those companies and I didn't

772
01:26:07.520 --> 01:26:14.160
like the answer that came to me which is oh they probably want to use AI to improve their

773
01:26:14.160 --> 01:26:19.760
advertising because these companies rely on advertising and when personalized advertising that

774
01:26:19.760 --> 01:26:27.200
sounds like you know manipulation and that's when I started thinking we should

775
01:26:29.200 --> 01:26:34.960
we should think about the social impact of what we're doing and I decided to stay in academia to stay

776
01:26:34.960 --> 01:26:43.440
in Canada to try to develop a more responsible ecosystem we put out a declaration called the

777
01:26:43.440 --> 01:26:47.920
Montreal Declaration for the Responsible Development of AI I could have gone to one of those

778
01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:53.440
companies or others and made a whole lot more money did you get me office informal yes but I

779
01:26:53.440 --> 01:27:06.000
quickly quickly said no I I don't want to do this because I wanted to work for a mission that

780
01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:14.560
I felt good about and it has allowed me to speak about the risks when chat GPT came from the freedom

781
01:27:14.560 --> 01:27:23.600
of academia and I hope that many more people realize that we can do something about those risks

782
01:27:24.720 --> 01:27:28.480
I'm hopeful more and more hopeful now that we can do something about it

783
01:27:29.760 --> 01:27:34.720
use the word regret there do you have any regrets because you said I would have more regrets

784
01:27:34.720 --> 01:27:41.840
yes of course I should have seen this coming much earlier it is only when I started thinking about

785
01:27:41.840 --> 01:27:46.320
the potential for the the lives of my children my grandchild that the

786
01:27:48.960 --> 01:27:55.760
shift happened emotion the word emotion means motion means movement it's what makes you move

787
01:27:57.040 --> 01:28:03.040
if it's just intellectual you know comes and goes and have you received you talked about being

788
01:28:03.040 --> 01:28:08.240
in a minority have you received a lot of pushback from colleagues when you started to speak about

789
01:28:08.240 --> 01:28:16.320
the risks of I have what does that look like in your world all sorts of comments I think a lot of

790
01:28:16.320 --> 01:28:25.600
people were afraid that talking negatively about AI would harm the field would stop the flow of

791
01:28:25.600 --> 01:28:33.440
money which of course that hasn't happened funding grants students it's the opposite there you

792
01:28:34.080 --> 01:28:40.160
there's never been as many people doing research or engineering in this field I think

793
01:28:41.200 --> 01:28:47.760
I understand a lot of these comments because I felt similarly before that I felt that these

794
01:28:47.760 --> 01:28:54.800
comments about catastrophic risks were a threat in some way so if somebody says oh what you're doing

795
01:28:54.880 --> 01:29:06.480
is bad you don't like it yeah your brain is going to find reasons to alleviate that

796
01:29:07.840 --> 01:29:16.240
discomfort by justifying it yeah but I'm stubborn and in the same way that in the 2000s

797
01:29:17.280 --> 01:29:23.840
I continued on my path to develop deep learning in spite of most of the community saying oh new

798
01:29:24.000 --> 01:29:32.720
nets that's finished I think now I see a change my colleagues are less skeptical they're like more

799
01:29:32.720 --> 01:29:40.560
agnostic rather than negative because we're having those discussions it just takes time for people

800
01:29:40.560 --> 01:29:49.760
to start digesting the underlying you know the rational arguments but also the emotional currents

801
01:29:49.840 --> 01:29:56.480
that are behind the reactions we would normally have you have a four-year-old grandson

802
01:29:58.320 --> 01:30:04.160
when he turns around to you someday and says granddad what should I do professionally as a career

803
01:30:04.160 --> 01:30:10.880
based on how you think the future is going to look what might you say to him I would say

804
01:30:11.360 --> 01:30:18.880
work on the beautiful human being that you can become

805
01:30:22.560 --> 01:30:30.480
I think that that part of ourselves will persist even if machines can do most of the jobs

806
01:30:30.720 --> 01:30:45.280
what part the part of us that loves and accepts to be loved and takes responsibility and

807
01:30:46.240 --> 01:30:52.640
feels good about contributing to each other and are you know collective well-being and you know

808
01:30:52.640 --> 01:31:01.360
our friends or family I feel for humanity more than ever because I've realized we are in the

809
01:31:01.360 --> 01:31:10.880
same boat and we could all lose but it is really this human thing and I don't know if you know

810
01:31:10.880 --> 01:31:19.520
machines will have these things in the future but first for certain we do and there will be

811
01:31:19.520 --> 01:31:29.280
jobs where we want to have people if I'm in a hospital I want a human being to hold my hand while

812
01:31:29.280 --> 01:31:41.600
I'm anxious or in pain the human touch is going to I think take more and more value as the other

813
01:31:41.600 --> 01:31:50.480
skills you know become more and more automated is it safe to say that you're worried about the future

814
01:31:51.920 --> 01:31:56.240
certainly so if your grandson turns around to you and says granddad you're worried about the future

815
01:31:56.240 --> 01:32:07.680
should I be I will say let's try to be clear-eyed about the future and it's not one future it's

816
01:32:07.680 --> 01:32:14.960
many possible futures and by our actions we can we can have an effect on where we go so I would tell him

817
01:32:17.280 --> 01:32:24.560
think about what you can do for the people around you for your society for the values that

818
01:32:25.360 --> 01:32:34.320
he's raised with to preserve the good things that exists on this planet and in humans.

819
01:32:34.960 --> 01:32:38.720
It's interesting that when I think about my niece and nephews there's three of them and they're

820
01:32:38.720 --> 01:32:42.400
all in the age of six and my older brother who works in my business is a year older and he's got

821
01:32:42.400 --> 01:32:48.240
three kids so if they feel very close because me and my brother about the same age we're close and

822
01:32:48.240 --> 01:32:53.440
he's got these three kids where you know in the uncle there's a certain innocence when I observe them

823
01:32:53.440 --> 01:32:58.320
you know playing with their staff playing with sand or just playing with their toys which hasn't

824
01:32:59.120 --> 01:33:03.600
been infiltrated by the nature of everything that's happening at the moment and I

825
01:33:03.600 --> 01:33:10.720
it's too heavy it's heavy yeah yeah it's heavy to think about how such innocence could be harmed

826
01:33:12.720 --> 01:33:23.440
you know it can come in small doses it can come as think of how we're at least in some countries

827
01:33:23.440 --> 01:33:28.080
educating our children so they understand that our environment is fragile that we have to

828
01:33:28.320 --> 01:33:36.240
take care of it if we want to still have it in 20 years or 50 years it doesn't need to be

829
01:33:36.240 --> 01:33:43.200
brought as a terrible weight but more like well that's how the world is and there are some risks

830
01:33:43.200 --> 01:33:51.920
but there are some beautiful things and we have agency you children will shape the future

831
01:33:52.000 --> 01:33:58.240
it seems to be a little bit unfair that they might have to shape a future they didn't ask for

832
01:33:58.240 --> 01:34:03.280
or create though sure especially if it's just a couple of people that have brought about

833
01:34:04.720 --> 01:34:14.720
summoned the demon I agree with you but that injustice can also be a drive to do things

834
01:34:15.600 --> 01:34:20.560
understanding that there is something unfair going on is a very powerful drive for people

835
01:34:21.520 --> 01:34:32.080
you know that we have genetically wired instincts to be angry about injustice

836
01:34:34.080 --> 01:34:38.320
and the reason I'm saying this is because there is evidence that our cousins

837
01:34:39.520 --> 01:34:48.480
apes also react that way so it's a powerful force it needs to be channeled channels intelligently

838
01:34:48.560 --> 01:34:55.760
but it's a powerful force and it can save us and the injustice being the injustice being that

839
01:34:55.760 --> 01:35:00.720
a few people will decide our future in ways that may not be necessarily good for us

840
01:35:03.040 --> 01:35:06.000
we have a closing tradition in this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next

841
01:35:06.000 --> 01:35:10.000
not knowing who they're leaving it for and the question is if you had one last phone call with

842
01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:14.320
the people you love the most what would you say on that phone call and what advice would you give them

843
01:35:18.480 --> 01:35:35.680
I would say I love them that I cherish what they are for me in my heart

844
01:35:36.560 --> 01:35:54.480
and I encourage them to cultivate these human emotions so that they open up to the beauty of humanity

845
01:35:55.440 --> 01:36:00.800
as a whole and do their share which really feels good

846
01:36:05.440 --> 01:36:11.200
do their share do their share to move the world towards a good place

847
01:36:12.720 --> 01:36:16.720
what advice would you have for me and to you know because I think people might believe and I'm

848
01:36:16.720 --> 01:36:20.960
not heard this yet but I think people might believe that I'm just having people on the show that

849
01:36:20.960 --> 01:36:27.280
talk about the risks but it's not like I haven't invited Sam Altman or any of the other leading

850
01:36:27.280 --> 01:36:32.080
AICOs to have these conversations but it appears that many of them aren't able to right now

851
01:36:33.040 --> 01:36:36.160
I had my staff a Solomon on who's now the head of Microsoft AI

852
01:36:38.160 --> 01:36:41.040
and he echoed a lot of the sentiments that you said so

853
01:36:41.440 --> 01:36:50.640
things were changing in the public opinion about AI I heard about a poll I didn't see it myself

854
01:36:50.640 --> 01:36:56.880
but apparently 95% of Americans think that the government should do something about it and

855
01:36:57.680 --> 01:37:03.520
the questions were a bit different but there were about 70% of Americans who were worried about two

856
01:37:03.520 --> 01:37:11.760
years ago so it's going up and so when you look at numbers like this and also some of the evidence

857
01:37:15.600 --> 01:37:27.360
it's becoming a bipartisan issue so I think you should reach out to the people

858
01:37:28.000 --> 01:37:36.080
that are more on the policy side in the political circles on both sides of the aisle

859
01:37:37.440 --> 01:37:47.600
because we need now that discussion to go from the scientist like myself or the leaders of companies

860
01:37:48.480 --> 01:37:52.960
to a political discussion and we need that discussion to be

861
01:37:56.320 --> 01:38:06.640
serene to be like based on a discussion where we listen to each other and we are honest about

862
01:38:06.640 --> 01:38:11.360
what we're talking about which is always difficult in politics but I think

863
01:38:12.320 --> 01:38:21.520
this is this is where this kind of exercise can help I think I shall thank you

864
01:38:25.200 --> 01:38:29.440
this is something that I've made for you I've realized that the Diaries here audience are

865
01:38:29.440 --> 01:38:34.000
strivers whether it's in business or health we all have big goals that we want to accomplish

866
01:38:34.000 --> 01:38:39.280
and one of the things I've learned is that when you aim at the big big big goal it can feel

867
01:38:39.280 --> 01:38:44.240
incredibly psychologically uncomfortable because it's kind of like being stood at the foot

868
01:38:44.240 --> 01:38:49.120
of Mount Everest and looking upwards the way to accomplish your goals is by breaking them down

869
01:38:49.120 --> 01:38:55.280
into tiny small steps and we call this an R team the 1% and actually this philosophy is highly

870
01:38:55.280 --> 01:39:00.560
responsible for much of our success here so what we've done so that you at home can accomplish any

871
01:39:00.560 --> 01:39:06.080
big goal that you have is we've made these 1% Diaries and we've released these last year and

872
01:39:06.080 --> 01:39:10.640
they all sold out so I asked my team over and over again to bring the Diaries back but also to

873
01:39:10.640 --> 01:39:16.560
introduce some new colors and to make some minor tweaks to the Diaries so now we have a better

874
01:39:16.560 --> 01:39:22.240
range for you so if you have a big goal in mind and you need a framework and a process and some

875
01:39:22.240 --> 01:39:27.440
motivation then I highly recommend you get one of these Diaries before they all sell out once

876
01:39:27.440 --> 01:39:33.200
again and you can get yours now at the Diary.com where you can get 20% off our Black Friday bundle

877
01:39:33.200 --> 01:39:35.200
and if you want the link the link is in the description below