WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.800 Hey guys, welcome back to the WK podcast. Today we'll be diving into Q&A session hosted by 2 00:00:04.800 --> 00:00:09.040 Jesse and Zenia back at Wild Files Festival last summer. Make sure to get your notepads out 3 00:00:09.040 --> 00:00:11.120 and listen closely. Let's head into this Q&A. 4 00:00:15.520 --> 00:00:21.040 Guys, this is Tim and Rachel Hughes. They've been a big part of helping wildfires, 5 00:00:21.040 --> 00:00:24.560 awesome worship leaders. They've also planted a church up in Birmingham, 6 00:00:24.560 --> 00:00:30.960 called Gastrey, and this is Catherine Hill, an author and writes lots about parenting, 7 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:35.760 about marriage, about how to do it well. We kind of loosely met at Spring Harvest a few months ago. 8 00:00:36.800 --> 00:00:43.280 And it's going to be awesome, this is Zenia. No cheers, is Zenia from the way? Hey, okay. 9 00:00:44.480 --> 00:00:49.040 And let's just get straight into it. Zenia, do you mind praying for us? Then we can start. 10 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:55.760 Well, Lord Jesus, I just thank you for this time. I thank you that we get to come around the 11 00:00:55.760 --> 00:01:01.600 topic of relationships, God, and we know that you are a relational God and you desire a relationship 12 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:05.600 with us. And so we just thank you, God, for your heart. And I just pray, God, over these next 13 00:01:05.600 --> 00:01:10.240 few moments, would you just give us some real insight? Would you give us wisdom? Lord, would you 14 00:01:10.240 --> 00:01:15.680 speak to us? Would you teach us how to do relationships well? And ultimately, God, we just want to 15 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:20.080 glorify you. You want to magnify your name. And so, yeah, Lord, have your way in this space, 16 00:01:20.080 --> 00:01:23.480 in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. 17 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:30.240 Do you want to ask the first question? Huge. Well, I feel like let's kind of break the ice 18 00:01:30.240 --> 00:01:36.240 a little bit and hear a bit of the origin story. So we know that you guys are married. Tell us, 19 00:01:36.240 --> 00:01:41.920 how did you meet your partner? Or how did you guys meet each other? He wants to go first, I don't 20 00:01:42.320 --> 00:01:47.440 know. First, I'll go first. So, yeah, I'm Catherine and I'm married to Richard and we have been married 21 00:01:47.440 --> 00:01:54.880 for 40 years, a very, very long time. And we have four adult children and we've got eight little 22 00:01:54.880 --> 00:02:01.360 grandchildren, a couple are here, which is really fun. But we met at law college in Guildford, 23 00:02:01.360 --> 00:02:07.360 and Richard wasn't a Christian at the time, but we became really good friends. At university, 24 00:02:07.360 --> 00:02:12.640 people don't really mind if you go to lectures or not, but law college, you have to go. And they 25 00:02:12.640 --> 00:02:19.280 sit you in a set class and set seat numbers. So I was seat one and he was seat 15, which was 26 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:25.360 directly behind. So he got to know the back of my head. And I have no sense of direction at all. 27 00:02:25.920 --> 00:02:31.920 And we had gone to a party in Guildford with a whole load of people from our class. And I realized 28 00:02:31.920 --> 00:02:37.600 when I was there, I didn't know how to get home. And so I did recognize Richard, I knew he lived 29 00:02:37.600 --> 00:02:43.440 near me. So I went up to him and he's subsequently said, this is the best chat-up line in history. 30 00:02:43.440 --> 00:02:49.680 But I said to him, do you mind if I follow you home? Anyway, the rest is history. And we got together 31 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:54.640 then. So got married a few years later after he'd become a Christian. And yeah, that's our little 32 00:02:54.640 --> 00:03:01.440 story. I'm going to try and keep this concise. So yeah, there is a longer version, but I'm going to 33 00:03:01.440 --> 00:03:06.480 try and give you the short version. So Tim and I have actually known each other our whole lives. 34 00:03:07.200 --> 00:03:12.560 Our parents are really good friends. And so we grew up sort of going on holidays together, 35 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:18.320 sharing baths together when we were really young, just to be clear. And... Great distinction. 36 00:03:18.320 --> 00:03:28.560 Babies, like really young. And I actually had a crush on Tim from the age of about 11. I just 37 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:37.200 thought he was the most attractive man that I'd ever laid eyes on. I still do. And I just thought 38 00:03:37.200 --> 00:03:44.160 he was amazing. But he didn't feel the same about me, sadly. I know, shocking. And so he made that 39 00:03:44.160 --> 00:03:51.040 quite clear, because my friend Tom asked him out on my behalf and he said no. And that was it 40 00:03:51.680 --> 00:04:00.400 for another 12 years. And then finally, when we were both in our mid 20s, Tim sort of attempted 41 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:07.280 to flirt with me, you know, we'll maybe talk a bit about that later. And finally he saw the light 42 00:04:07.920 --> 00:04:13.680 and asked me out and we started dating. And because we'd known each other our whole lives, 43 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:20.640 it wasn't long before we realized that this was it. And so yeah, we got married about a year later. 44 00:04:20.640 --> 00:04:27.040 And Tim, I'm assuming that's the same story for you. You know, I remember... I was actually 45 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:32.560 I had another girlfriend at the time. Now, if we get to talk about relationships, I'm the worst person 46 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:37.600 to talk about relationships because I was rubbish with girls and, you know, terrified of women. 47 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:43.920 I didn't have many girlfriends at all, but I did have this one girlfriend and the three of us 48 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:49.040 went out for a drink, didn't we? And I remember thinking I'm dating the wrong girl. So I ended that 49 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:55.520 relationship and then asked you out. She happened to be my housemate, so it was quite awkward, 50 00:04:55.520 --> 00:05:03.920 but she... I know, we're all friends. It's like crazy. Yeah, so we've got married and it's been 51 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:12.720 amazing. It's been 21 years? Yeah. It's so messy sometimes, the dating world. And I think that's 52 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:18.080 even a first practical that we can hear. I'm even looking around the room. There's like lots of 53 00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:24.000 younger Gen Z, first little practical thing is, wow, it can just be a little messy and it can 54 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:29.520 look a bit complicated. And so thanks for your honesty. Thanks for bringing it. I was just curious, 55 00:05:29.520 --> 00:05:37.760 how did you know the Tim was the one? Obviously, you said like, you know, you knew him from 56 00:05:37.760 --> 00:05:42.960 since you were kids, shared baths together, which is a little weird, but moved past. But how did you 57 00:05:42.960 --> 00:05:47.040 know that actually, you know, this is the right person for me? Was there like traits you were looking 58 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:53.200 for? And how can we look for similar traits as we... You know, honestly, I didn't know he was the 59 00:05:53.200 --> 00:05:59.520 one. I just knew that I fancy. Do you say fancied? It's not like a really old, old woman thing to say, 60 00:05:59.520 --> 00:06:06.000 but I really fancied him. That's what I knew, honestly. And I have to confess that I did date 61 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:13.360 several other people. Can I just... I think we need to establish this. Do you know the first person 62 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:26.560 that Rachel snogged was my younger brother, Pete? He. Yes. That is... So I... Pete likes to say that I'm 63 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:35.920 the rebound. Anyway, let's move on to what the actual question was. Practical advice. Yes, how did I 64 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:43.120 know that he was the one? Yeah. Truth is, I did date quite a lot of other guys, but I always 65 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:51.360 harbored this, yeah, this crush for Tim. And our lives, you know, we met up on lots of occasions 66 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:58.080 through our teens and into our early 20s because our families were so, so closely connected. And 67 00:06:58.960 --> 00:07:07.440 truth is, I didn't make great choices in my teens and in my 20s when it comes to like relationships 68 00:07:07.440 --> 00:07:12.640 and sex and things. I kind of ignored God's way and thought I'm going to do it my way. I'm going to 69 00:07:12.640 --> 00:07:19.520 do it kind of what all my friends were doing at school and at university. And I kind of lost who I 70 00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:30.080 was. I was making all these choices. I knew I wasn't doing stuff God's way and I got to my early 20s 71 00:07:30.080 --> 00:07:35.840 and I just I was I was just like empty inside. I'd been living this life that I thought was going 72 00:07:35.840 --> 00:07:41.600 to make me feel really good. And actually what I felt was just empty, lost, didn't know who I was. 73 00:07:42.320 --> 00:07:50.400 And actually at that point, I knew I wanted to get married one day. And I knew I wanted to marry 74 00:07:50.400 --> 00:07:56.800 somebody like Tim. But I thought because of all the choices that I'd made, I thought there's no 75 00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:06.240 way God would let me or allow me to marry someone like Tim. Because in my mind, Tim was this, 76 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:14.320 I mean, he was devastatingly good looking. That was one thing. But he had really chosen to chase 77 00:08:14.320 --> 00:08:22.560 after God. And he'd really chosen to make good choices in the area of relationships and sex 78 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:29.040 and things like that. And so I just thought, there's no way God would put us together. Tim's not 79 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:35.920 going to be interested in someone like me. And and I think the reason I felt that is because 80 00:08:35.920 --> 00:08:43.120 there were some qualities that Tim had that I knew I really wanted in a husband. Number one is 81 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:50.960 integrity. I had dated a bunch of guys who said one thing but acted in a different way, who 82 00:08:51.040 --> 00:08:57.920 pretended to be faithful but then were unfaithful. And I knew deep down that probably 83 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:06.640 the top quality beyond loving Jesus was somebody who was honest, who was the same person, 84 00:09:07.760 --> 00:09:14.480 you know, to me, but also like kept their promises was faithful. And Tim has proven to be that 85 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:21.120 person throughout our married life. And and I'm so grateful that God put us together because I get 86 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:26.960 to be married to a guy that has such high integrity. So I'd say if you if you if you pursue one 87 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:35.920 quality in a married partner, let it be integrity. So good. So I think like you we didn't know to start 88 00:09:35.920 --> 00:09:42.800 with we just became really good friends. We laughed a lot. We had a lot of fun together. So life 89 00:09:42.800 --> 00:09:49.280 was more colorful more rich when we were together. I think the quality I love about Richard is he's 90 00:09:49.280 --> 00:09:57.600 kind. He's a very kind man. And he brings out the best in me. He makes me a better person. And the 91 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:02.480 other thing I would say is friends would say that friends would say you two are so good together. 92 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:07.440 You bring out the best in each other. And I'm sure we'll talk about accountable friendships later on 93 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:13.840 but that was really important for us. So good. There's a lady in our church who's 94 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:17.680 fairly recently become a Christian, but she was on that show which I've not watched, but a 95 00:10:17.680 --> 00:10:25.600 married at first sight. And so we got married first day she met this guy and it's not legally 96 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:30.800 binding. I mean, I didn't fully understand it. Anyway, they kind of moved in together. But within 97 00:10:30.800 --> 00:10:37.760 months, she realized he wasn't who she thought he was and the whole thing fell apart. Surprise, 98 00:10:37.760 --> 00:10:43.120 surprise. And I think the dangers we think that it kind of this attraction or the kind of this 99 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:48.880 myth that you're going to meet someone and it's like straight away like, they're the one. I think 100 00:10:48.880 --> 00:10:54.400 that can be really unhelpful because I think actually there's probably lots of lots of people you 101 00:10:54.400 --> 00:10:59.360 could marry if you're willing to work at it. But I think there's something about taking the pressure 102 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:06.000 off yourself when you start dating someone to be relaxed. And as Catherine was saying, the 103 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:11.120 friendship side of things is so important. You enjoy their company. You laugh together. You can be 104 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:17.280 honest together. You can be safe and vulnerable with that person. If you never, if you always feel 105 00:11:17.280 --> 00:11:23.840 like you have to perform or put enough facade to keep the other person interested in you, 106 00:11:24.560 --> 00:11:30.080 it's never going to work in marriage because actually the true gift of marriage is that 107 00:11:30.640 --> 00:11:36.560 Rachel has seen the absolute worst of me and yet still loves me. And I feel like I can be 108 00:11:36.560 --> 00:11:44.000 truly myself and still know that she'll accept and love me and hopefully vice versa. And that 109 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:51.440 brings the most incredible sense of security and depth of friendship and it makes life so much 110 00:11:52.400 --> 00:11:57.920 better. So I just say when you're trying to figure out who's the one, there'll be a point you'll 111 00:11:57.920 --> 00:12:03.600 know, but don't put yourself under pressure or expect if you don't think it, feel it straight 112 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:11.680 away. I'd say for us, I think I took me a bit of time. And as we started hanging out in 113 00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:20.000 dating, you know, kind of those feelings of love, you know, attraction and I just want to spend 114 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:24.240 the rest of my life with this amazing woman kind of growing. And to be honest, we've married 115 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:30.720 21 years. I love Rachel more now than I did 21 years ago. And I think that's you want someone 116 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:36.320 you're just going to form more in love with as the years progress. So good. I love how like you talked 117 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:42.160 about patients in the process of like getting to know someone and then Rachel, you talked about like 118 00:12:42.160 --> 00:12:46.720 integrity or like faithfulness and then covering you talked about like kindness. These are all 119 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:52.160 like fruit of the spirit. They're all biblical principles. And I think like these are like such 120 00:12:52.160 --> 00:12:57.280 amazing qualities, but also wanted to know like in your own relationships, are there any 121 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:04.240 scriptures or like biblical stories that have grounded like your relationship with your spouse? 122 00:13:04.640 --> 00:13:09.680 Well, I think not right at the beginning, but I think there have been there've been people who 123 00:13:09.680 --> 00:13:15.040 have been role models for us definitely. But there have been a couple of scriptures that have 124 00:13:15.040 --> 00:13:22.160 enabled us to have a vision for our marriage and for our family relationship. So verse from 125 00:13:22.160 --> 00:13:28.320 Isaiah 58 that talks about being a repair of broken walls, a restore of streets with dwellings. 126 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:34.480 And somebody prayed that over us early days of our marriage. And actually, we've invested a lot 127 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:40.560 of our of our marriage really investing in others' relationships in marriages wanting to invest in 128 00:13:40.560 --> 00:13:46.800 our own family. And I think that's for us that that it wasn't about going to build houses. 129 00:13:46.800 --> 00:13:52.560 We're going to work for habitat for humanities. It was about building relationships. So for us, 130 00:13:52.560 --> 00:13:58.320 that's that's been something that we've worked hard at for ourselves, but also tried to do 131 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:06.880 and for others as well. One of the scriptures that has been like, I guess like just a key one 132 00:14:06.880 --> 00:14:12.640 throughout my whole life is Psalm 139. I've got a little tattoo of Psalm 139 on my foot. 133 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:21.920 And the first time I heard it read was at my grandma's funeral when I was 16. And it talks about how 134 00:14:21.920 --> 00:14:30.000 God has created us, talks about the fact that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. And at the time, 135 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:36.080 I was really struggling with the way that I looked. In fact, I had a really tricky relationship with 136 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:41.680 the way that I looked with the way that God had made me for many years. And that scripture 137 00:14:42.560 --> 00:14:50.320 was God's way of communicating to me his his intention in the way that he had 138 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:56.080 created me and how he delighted in the way that I looked. And it was such a powerful verse 139 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:01.200 and has remained that way. And in a sense, I remember bringing that into our married life, 140 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:09.760 because again, I knew I wanted to be married to a man that really honored and valued and took 141 00:15:09.760 --> 00:15:17.520 delight in the way that I looked. But also it was so much more than that. Looks are important. 142 00:15:17.520 --> 00:15:25.520 Like I would say it's not wrong to need to find the other person attractive. Like that's a really 143 00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:32.080 good thing. But if the relationship only rests on physical attraction, you're in trouble, 144 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:39.200 because guess what? We get old and looks change. And so there's got it's got to be deeper than that. 145 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:45.840 And I knew what I'd found in Tim was somebody that yes, really found me attractive and celebrated 146 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:49.920 the way that I looked. And that was important. I needed that. I needed someone that really 147 00:15:49.920 --> 00:15:54.800 celebrated the way I looked. But at the same time, I knew that what Tim loved about me went so 148 00:15:54.800 --> 00:16:01.120 much deeper than anything on the outside. He was interested in what I thought and what I said and 149 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:05.440 how I felt about things. And so yeah, those verses have always been quite key for me. 150 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:12.880 I think it's such a funny conversation to have when when you're Gen Z or even in your later years 151 00:16:12.880 --> 00:16:18.160 and maybe still figuring out what it looks like today. Church, as you said, the stakes can feel 152 00:16:18.160 --> 00:16:22.800 really high. So we've got to remove the stakes. But also it's sometimes as simple as just 153 00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:28.240 finding it easy and fancy. It's like it's the kind of tension and the balance. And I know I was 154 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:34.880 with some friends last week and two of them were with their wives and they've been dating since 155 00:16:34.880 --> 00:16:42.400 they were 12. And I was like, you've been having a 12 because they're also you're told like, 156 00:16:42.400 --> 00:16:47.120 you know, you can date when you're young, but also it's not loads of points. You're still figuring 157 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:52.240 out who you are, like maybe wait till you mid 20s or maybe wait till you 30. And it's quite hard 158 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:58.800 to know when do I start. How do I know I'm ready for this? I know there's a question. I ask myself 159 00:16:58.800 --> 00:17:04.880 like, am I ready to step into a relationship? Am I in the right time? Am I in the right place with 160 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:11.360 God? It's a big question. How do you think we can know that we're ready to get into a relationship? 161 00:17:11.360 --> 00:17:21.520 I think it's really important, particularly when you're younger to have a group of friends. 162 00:17:21.520 --> 00:17:27.360 I think that's the thing. I think the danger is sometimes you kind of start dating someone and 163 00:17:27.360 --> 00:17:32.400 it can pull you away from a friendship group. And I know for me, I didn't really date that much 164 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:38.720 in my teenage years. Polly, I never massively had the sort of the person that was like, 165 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:44.480 thought it was going to be, you know, I guess, really fanted or wanted to go after. But actually, 166 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:48.320 what I love, and I did have a couple of girlfriends, but what I loved is I built lots of 167 00:17:49.120 --> 00:17:55.120 friends. And I think that's really, really important just to not get to exclusive. So I'd encourage 168 00:17:55.120 --> 00:18:03.280 you to sort of broaden and have lots of friendships. I think, again, I think we put maybe particularly 169 00:18:03.280 --> 00:18:09.200 in the Christian world as well, youth groups and student groups and young adults, a massive 170 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:14.480 amount of pressure on dating. You know, oh, you're dating. And everyone seems to know about it. 171 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:21.280 And that can feel so vulnerable and exposing. And I do think we could do a better job at just 172 00:18:21.280 --> 00:18:26.320 taking all the pressure off. And now, in some, as if there's someone you feel that you're drawn to, 173 00:18:26.320 --> 00:18:32.560 you know, what are the keys? Are you thinking about them a lot? Are you, if they walk into a room, 174 00:18:32.560 --> 00:18:37.040 you are totally aware. They're walking in the room. You have those people, isn't it? You kind of 175 00:18:37.040 --> 00:18:43.120 daydream about your, when you're with them, it's amazing. If you have that person, then I think 176 00:18:43.840 --> 00:18:49.200 be bold and say, look, would you have a fancy going out, watch a movie, coffee, I don't know, 177 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:56.560 what will you guys would want to do on a date? And just see, you're not proposing to someone by 178 00:18:56.560 --> 00:19:03.440 saying, should we go out for a drink? But I do think we need to be better when we sort of begin 179 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.600 to engage with one another, maybe on our own in a friendship setting or kind of exploring, 180 00:19:07.600 --> 00:19:15.280 is there a bit more chemistry here to do that without expecting you're now going to have to 181 00:19:15.280 --> 00:19:20.480 date for six months. And just to see how you connect. And I think sometimes, do you know, 182 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:26.480 you're ready, you don't know until you try? I also think it's really important to ask the question 183 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:34.960 why, why you want to be in a relationship, because I think back to when I was single and 184 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:42.240 interested in guys, I know for me that a lot of the motivation for wanting to be in a relationship 185 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:50.880 with a guy was firstly, because I want it made me feel better about me. Like if I was in a 186 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:56.640 relationship with somebody, it just made me feel really good. Like it gave me sort of status, 187 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:02.880 like I've got a boyfriend and etc. And in a sense, I mentioned earlier about sort of feeling 188 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:08.320 quite bad about the way that I looked. In a sense, part of the reason that I dated guys 189 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.920 were because it then made me feel better about the way that I looked. Like, oh, well, 190 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:18.080 somebody likes me, somebody finds me attractive. That's just not a great reason to be in a relationship 191 00:20:18.080 --> 00:20:25.120 with someone. And again, I think what I discovered was actually the best place to be in a relationship 192 00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:31.360 with someone is when it's grown out of a friendship that actually you enjoy being with that person 193 00:20:31.360 --> 00:20:38.480 as a person. You enjoy their company. I think therefore the question to ask is why do you want 194 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:43.360 to be in a relationship? Is it because you really want to spend time with that person, 195 00:20:43.360 --> 00:20:48.320 or is it because you just want to be in a relationship? I think that goes some way to answering 196 00:20:48.320 --> 00:20:57.440 the question, am I ready? Yeah, and I think I totally agree with all of that, keeping lots of 197 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:02.800 friends, taking the pressure off. But I also think we're never going to be totally ready. We're 198 00:21:02.800 --> 00:21:07.520 never going to be in that perfect place where we're mature enough to be in a relationship, 199 00:21:07.520 --> 00:21:11.680 someone where we're just giving, we're not expecting back. We're never going to be in that 200 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:18.480 incredible place with God where it's all perfect. So some of it is about learning together, 201 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:25.520 growing together, and changing, changing together. I think it's interesting when you're like 202 00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:30.400 in school or in your 20s and then you see all your friends then start dating and it's like, 203 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:35.760 okay, I guess this is the next phase of life. I guess this is where we'll all go in. And then maybe 204 00:21:35.760 --> 00:21:40.080 you're like the only one in your friendship group that's not dating and all your other friends 205 00:21:40.080 --> 00:21:45.280 are in relationships and you're there like, okay, love being the third wheel, but this isn't really 206 00:21:45.280 --> 00:21:51.360 what I want. And you're like, oh God, I would love to find someone. I want to date, but also you're 207 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:56.480 like, oh God, I know you've got your own time for me and all that stuff. What advice would you give 208 00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:02.080 to somebody that is looking today and wants to be in a relationship, has that desire, but they also 209 00:22:02.080 --> 00:22:06.880 don't want to settle, but they also want to wait on God's timing or what God has for them. 210 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:13.760 What advice would you give? So I would say, don't make your decision based on what you think other 211 00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:20.640 people think. This is about you. And there's that lovely, I think it was Ignatius, but somebody 212 00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:27.360 anyway said, work as if it depended on you and pray as if it depended on God. And so I think we have 213 00:22:27.360 --> 00:22:33.360 to actually have to do some things as well. There was a girl that used to come to me and ask me to 214 00:22:33.360 --> 00:22:38.160 pray that she would have a boyfriend and she asked me to pray so many times and I would pray. 215 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.320 And eventually I said, have you done anything about this? Have you gone online? Have you joined 216 00:22:42.320 --> 00:22:46.480 Salt? Have you, you know, you're putting yourself in the place and she said, oh no, I'm just waiting 217 00:22:46.560 --> 00:22:52.640 for God to send him my way. And I said, well, I do think it expects us to play our part as well. 218 00:22:53.680 --> 00:23:00.560 So yeah. One of the other things, I remember I did end updating a girl, one of my three or four 219 00:23:00.560 --> 00:23:06.640 girlfriends. For that reason, I was like, oh, everyone else is, I probably should. I'm pretty 220 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:12.640 quickly, I realized, actually, I don't feel, you know, that deep connection to this person. And 221 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:19.920 and so I think I'd encourage you, it's better to wait than to sort of jump into something. 222 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:26.640 And I think the other thing is when when you're feeling that lack or that I really like someone, 223 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:31.200 it's really important to have a few people you can just share that with. So I think sometimes we 224 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:35.680 carry it on our own. But just to talk to friends like, I'd really love a girlfriend or I'm feeling 225 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:40.240 a bit lonely or I'm finding your heart. All my other mates have got, you know, all those questions 226 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:45.760 you ask yourself, is it something, is there something wrong with me? Is the reason that I haven't 227 00:23:45.760 --> 00:23:50.160 got a boyfriend or girlfriend because I'm not desirable enough for I'm not going to come? All of 228 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:56.560 these things, the little lies that we can begin to believe can feed away at us. And when we begin 229 00:23:56.560 --> 00:24:01.120 just to talk to friends or safe people and they say, you know, you realize, okay, it's just a 230 00:24:01.120 --> 00:24:06.880 timing thing. It just again helps deal with and process and navigate those emotions with that 231 00:24:07.040 --> 00:24:15.440 inevitable when you're waiting for someone. Hey, interrupting your podcast session here, 232 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:19.600 which I wanted to say, thank you so much for listening. If you are listening in on our YouTube, 233 00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:24.480 make sure to subscribe. But if you're listening in on our Spotify and Apple podcast, 234 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:29.760 then make sure to follow us and give us a little rating because we want these podcasts to reach 235 00:24:29.760 --> 00:24:35.040 as many people because our vision here at the way is to share the good news of Jesus with every 236 00:24:35.040 --> 00:24:39.680 young person online and who without further ado, get back into the podcast. 237 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:48.720 I think that was brilliant when you shared Rachel about asking the why because the question I was 238 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:53.600 about to ask you before you went into that was what some practical questions we can ask ourselves 239 00:24:53.600 --> 00:24:59.360 as almost like a self-examine to help us know. And you said it, you said, it's good to just stop 240 00:24:59.360 --> 00:25:04.880 and ask, okay, why? Why do I actually want to do this? Is it because of my friends? Is it because 241 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:10.320 I'm lonely? Okay, great. Where can I actually meet that loneliness with my friends and just hang out 242 00:25:10.320 --> 00:25:14.880 and like feel that void a little bit? Where am I not letting go into something? It's a really good 243 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:23.440 question. Just stop, breathe. Why? Why am I doing this? But once we know a little bit of why, 244 00:25:23.520 --> 00:25:29.840 maybe we've crossed the line, we've asked a girl out or a guy and we've had fun and we're going 245 00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:35.840 coffee dates, movie, whatever. When you're a Christian, you want to date differently to how the 246 00:25:35.840 --> 00:25:39.920 world dates, to how our friends at school dates. And that's tricky because there's not always 247 00:25:40.800 --> 00:25:45.680 perfect examples around us. I'm sure if you're in school or the workplace or university, 248 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.720 you look at your friends, your housemates and their dating looks very different to the way that 249 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:56.400 we think we should be dating. How do you think as Christians we can bring Jesus into our dating 250 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:03.040 process? And even in marriage, how have you centered your marriages around Jesus? I mean, I mentioned 251 00:26:03.040 --> 00:26:10.080 before, I dated lots of other guys and I dated I guess in the way that you might say like the world 252 00:26:10.080 --> 00:26:15.680 dates or you know, lots of my friends who aren't Christians aren't going to church and it's all 253 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:20.160 kind of the other way around. You know, the physical stuff happens and then it's like, oh, shall we? 254 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:25.360 Shall we make a commitment to one another? Oh yeah, let's do that. And of course, God's way, 255 00:26:25.360 --> 00:26:29.600 it's the other way around. You know, the commitment comes first and then the other stuff follows. 256 00:26:30.080 --> 00:26:38.320 And when I started dating Tim, it was so, he was like the first like really committed Christian 257 00:26:38.320 --> 00:26:45.040 guy that I dated. And I, actually to be honest, the thing that I felt more than anything was so 258 00:26:45.040 --> 00:26:52.640 honored, I felt so honored as a person. I felt like he really honored who I was. And we'd gone on 259 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.560 a couple of drinks together. We'd sat, you know, and obviously we knew each other so well, but 260 00:26:56.560 --> 00:27:02.320 it was that, you know, that sort of cliche where we were chatting so much that we hadn't noticed 261 00:27:02.320 --> 00:27:06.320 they were clearing the chairs away, you know, in the restaurant. It was that kind of thing. We just, 262 00:27:06.320 --> 00:27:12.240 we just connected. And then the next step was Tim asked if I wanted to, you know, have some lunch at 263 00:27:12.320 --> 00:27:17.680 his house after church. And so I thought, you know, he hasn't asked me out yet. Like, he hasn't kissed me. 264 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:22.320 He hasn't asked me out. Like, I don't understand how these rules work. These are not the rules I 265 00:27:22.320 --> 00:27:30.000 understand. And so we, you know, we had lunch and then we sat down in his living room, him on one 266 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:37.280 side of the room, me on the other. And he was getting a bit nervous. And he then he then said 267 00:27:37.280 --> 00:27:42.720 lots of lovely things about me and said, you know, Rachel, I'd love, I'd love you to be my girlfriend. 268 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:47.200 I think, you know, this, this, this, at all these nice things. Would you be my girlfriend? And I'm 269 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:53.840 like, oh, let me think about that for like half a second. Yes. Then I expected him to get up 270 00:27:53.840 --> 00:28:00.800 from the sofa and come and, you know, give me a kiss, you know. And the next thing Tim said was 271 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:07.600 that's wonderful. Shall we pray? Shall we pray? Now, I mean, that is pretty awesome. 272 00:28:09.760 --> 00:28:15.440 I was like, yeah, let's pray, but when are you going to kiss me? Like, come on. I've been waiting 273 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:23.680 for this kiss for like years. But what it meant was that Tim, Tim wanted to, you know, God was 274 00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:29.360 going to be right at the center of our relationship with the beginning. And I'm so grateful for that. 275 00:28:30.080 --> 00:28:35.040 Catherine, how do you also bring Jesus into your relationships, into your dating? 276 00:28:35.040 --> 00:28:41.600 Well, dating, our story is that Richard became a Christian, probably slightly after we started 277 00:28:41.600 --> 00:28:47.440 going out if I'm perfectly honest. And so it was something we were just trying to work out 278 00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:54.080 together. We knew we wanted to pray together, but we found it so hard and so awkward. And 279 00:28:54.720 --> 00:29:00.240 somebody said to us, this is now after we were married, just pray little and often in the same 280 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:04.320 way that when you're married, that's the advice going to date night, little and often. Once a 281 00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:08.240 week or whatever, pray together little and often. The reason we didn't pray together was because 282 00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:14.320 I thought we needed a whole hour in order to pray together. And we never had an hour. And it just 283 00:29:14.320 --> 00:29:20.960 felt for Richard very structured, which it probably was. And so we just learned to just say, 284 00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:27.440 what can I pray for you? Just so simply like that. And then one pray for the other. And just like 285 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:31.840 so much about relationships, it's the simple little things that make all the difference. So 286 00:29:32.320 --> 00:29:37.520 and that I have to say praying together for us is the bedrock of our relationship now. 287 00:29:38.320 --> 00:29:44.000 And we, I think you asked something about rhythms that keep us going. And we have a couple that we 288 00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:52.880 have met with now for over 25 years. And we meet up once fortnight, roughly. And we have a meal 289 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:58.160 together. We laugh together. We cry together. We're really accountable to each other about our 290 00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:02.480 marriage. So if Richard and I are getting a bit sort of techy with each other, they'll say, hey, 291 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:08.880 are you guys spending enough time together? And we pray. And honestly, that rhythm of involving 292 00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:14.080 somebody else as well in our relationship, giving permission for that. That's been a really 293 00:30:14.080 --> 00:30:19.040 key part of keeping Jesus at the center as well. I love how we've spoken a lot about like 294 00:30:19.040 --> 00:30:24.000 valuing prayer or like valuing Jesus and having that as like a mutual thing that both people 295 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:28.960 like committed to, but obviously in relationships like all people, you agree on some things. And then 296 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:33.360 maybe some things don't line up or you disagree on other things. And I was wondering like, 297 00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:36.720 you know, when you're dating, you're figuring out like, hey, what are your interests? Like, where 298 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:42.000 do you see your life going? Like, what stuff's important to you? And those conversations can be 299 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:46.800 a little bit hard, you know, because you want it to work, but sometimes they, and I wanted to ask 300 00:30:46.800 --> 00:30:51.360 about like, what if you have a direction for your life or some might say a calling, like you feel 301 00:30:51.360 --> 00:30:55.120 like God's calling you here. But the other person is like, actually, I think God's calling me there. 302 00:30:55.120 --> 00:30:59.920 Like, what do you do when your calling stone seem to align? Do you stop day in? Do you just 303 00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:03.920 start to get through? Try and make it work. Like, how do you, what do you do in those moments? 304 00:31:05.040 --> 00:31:12.960 Well, I think ultimately you've, you both feel your callings are not going to be compatible 305 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:18.480 together. And that's not going to work. But I do think, actually, in a rage light, there's some 306 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:23.680 things we've got very similar callings, other areas, very different callings. And what we've learned 307 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:29.680 in our marriages, you have to give space to one another. Sometimes I've had to compromise or 308 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:34.720 say no to things that perhaps I would like to do to give space for Rachel to do what she's called 309 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:41.840 to do very much. She's done that for me. So I think this idea, well, in marriage and in the 310 00:31:41.840 --> 00:31:48.080 deep relationship, you have to submit to one another. You have to create space for one another. 311 00:31:48.080 --> 00:31:57.040 I'd also say in terms of even this whole area of disagreement, I think great relationships 312 00:31:57.040 --> 00:32:03.120 actually involve tension. I think the things that sometimes can be the most frustrating in a 313 00:32:03.120 --> 00:32:09.120 marriage or a friendship, actually also the things that are most exciting in life giving, 314 00:32:09.760 --> 00:32:14.400 when you see things from different viewpoints and it actually keeps you sharp, you keep learning, 315 00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:19.520 you keep, wow, okay, you think that, okay, you know, that discussion. And I think again, 316 00:32:19.520 --> 00:32:24.320 we have this myth that you're going to agree on absolutely everything. That's going to be really 317 00:32:24.320 --> 00:32:31.840 boring. I'd say the question, I think it's really important when you're thinking about someone and 318 00:32:31.840 --> 00:32:38.720 are they the one? The question you've got to ask yourself is, do I deeply respect them? 319 00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:46.640 Do I deeply respect them? Do I, and again, the whole attraction and the whole, the sexual 320 00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:54.960 physical engagement side of a relationship, if you're physically engaged, that can cover up a 321 00:32:54.960 --> 00:33:00.160 whole bunch of things in a relationship. Because of the, maybe the fun of that side of things, 322 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:04.960 and when you're having that kind of relationship, you maybe have that emotional connection that gets 323 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:12.880 deeper, but actually the physical side will never, ever, ever, ever, ever sustain a marriage. 324 00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:20.080 It has to be this sense of deep respect and deep trust. But also, I think if you're with someone, 325 00:33:21.280 --> 00:33:26.080 you feel embarrassed when you're around them in a group setting or you hear them, they just 326 00:33:26.080 --> 00:33:32.240 feel too immature. Even, again, I remember my parents talking about, even intellectually feeling 327 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:37.440 like a connection. And I was, that's so old-fashioned, that's ridiculous. That's an important thing. 328 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:42.400 You're going to spend a lifetime of someone chatting about all sorts of things. And so, 329 00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:46.720 if there's not like, I'm not saying that you've got the same kind of A levels of GCCs or degrees, 330 00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:52.400 but there's a way of thinking and approaching life that kind of stimulates your mind. All of these 331 00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:58.480 things sound really old and boring and dull, but I'm telling you, they are the thing that sustain and 332 00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:04.640 make a marriage rich, beautiful life-giving and exciting. Yeah, I would say, and yeah, having 333 00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:11.520 shared interest, shared values, the idea of calling is an interesting one. I'm not sure many of us 334 00:34:11.520 --> 00:34:17.440 when we're young, well, very few people do have a real sense of a very specific calling, 335 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:22.320 but I would say generally it's, we're called to follow Jesus and become more like him in whatever 336 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:28.560 context he places us. We had a friend and he had a very specific calling, he thought, that he was 337 00:34:28.560 --> 00:34:34.000 going to go and be a missionary in China. And so, he went around in any girlfriend that he, 338 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:39.040 anyone that he met, are you going to, are you prepared to come and live in China? They all said no. 339 00:34:39.120 --> 00:34:44.960 And eventually, he found someone who said, yes, so hooray, they went out, they got married, 340 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:49.280 and then he got turned down by the missionary society and they never did get to China. 341 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:55.280 But you know, she had been prepared to, I think, put her interests to one side, because if that 342 00:34:55.280 --> 00:35:01.520 was what God was calling them to, she was going to do it. So, yeah. I was going to say, I feel like 343 00:35:01.520 --> 00:35:07.200 that, in a sense when Tim and I got together, actually Tim is one of those people had a very 344 00:35:07.200 --> 00:35:11.120 clear sense of calling from our young age, you know, you were leading worship, you knew that 345 00:35:11.120 --> 00:35:17.600 church leadership was most likely the pathway. At the time, I was working in TV, I was at the BBC 346 00:35:17.600 --> 00:35:24.800 in London, and there's a part of me that, like I'm an unavangelist, I love telling people about 347 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:29.760 Jesus, I love being around people that don't go to church. And so, at that point in my life, 348 00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:36.720 if Tim had said to me, well, I'll only marry you if you give up your job at the BBC, 349 00:35:37.200 --> 00:35:43.040 and come and be a vicar's wife with me, out of thought, no way, mate, I'm not doing that. God's 350 00:35:43.040 --> 00:35:48.480 called me here. I'm meant to be in TV. I felt like God had put me there for a reason that I was 351 00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:55.840 supposed to be a light in the TV industry, but Tim didn't do that. But as God would have it, 352 00:35:55.840 --> 00:36:02.880 a year, you know, a year into us being together, God made it really clear. It was a shock to me, 353 00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:06.960 but he made it really clear that actually I was supposed to leave television, that that was a 354 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:12.960 chapter, and that I was going to go into church ministry with him. And that was his will and way, 355 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:17.200 but that wasn't because Tim had said, you know, like this guy, well, I'm not going to marry if you 356 00:36:17.200 --> 00:36:24.000 don't do that. God did it in his way, in his timing. And so I think it is, it's about, like you said, 357 00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:29.920 keeping an open mind. And if God has you together, then he will craft your parts alongside one 358 00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:35.840 another. It's so helpful and super practical and also really fun stories and 359 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:41.360 releases a lot of the pressure, like I don't need to know where specifically I'm called to in 360 00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:47.440 order to even start dating. It's like that's so helpful to hear. One of the things that has come 361 00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:55.520 up a lot in this Q&A bit is around hook up culture, around sex, and last, who knew that in a 362 00:36:55.600 --> 00:37:00.560 talk about relationship sex would come up, oh, I can't have predicted that. We could have 363 00:37:00.560 --> 00:37:07.200 every single relationship's podcast has sex involved. Last, there was questions around how to deal 364 00:37:07.200 --> 00:37:12.480 with it. Is it a deal breaker if someone's struggling with lust before getting into a relationship? 365 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:17.280 How do you, you talked a lot to him about how the physical stuff doesn't last and it can kind of 366 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:23.760 cover up? How do you recognize in your own relationships are actually it's not just emotional 367 00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:28.800 connection, it's mostly physical connection. Like what are some ways that you can bring awareness 368 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:35.040 to relationships and just how do you navigate living in a generation where everyone is just 369 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:40.560 horny, which just to say it straight. Like let's be honest, like, you know, I was in school, 370 00:37:40.560 --> 00:37:44.640 this sucked. Everyone was hooking up all around me and I didn't know what to do. I was like this 371 00:37:44.640 --> 00:37:51.120 Christian pure boy trying to figure out how and how do you learn how to be pure in relationships 372 00:37:51.200 --> 00:37:57.200 while still so being such a twisted sexual culture. Sorry, there's a big few questions. I just 373 00:37:57.200 --> 00:38:02.800 we could be going there. I think it's a really, I think it's really important that we talk about this 374 00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:08.000 and that, you know, we've got teenagers. I don't know whether they're in the room. I hope they're not. 375 00:38:08.640 --> 00:38:16.800 No, but actually truth is I've tried to be, we've tried to be really honest and open with our kids 376 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:24.160 because I want them to be open and honest with us. And I think the worst thing you can do 377 00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:31.200 is not talk to people about what you're feeling and what's what's going on in your friendship 378 00:38:31.200 --> 00:38:38.560 groups groups around you. And again, as a parent, I don't want to be a naive to the pressure that 379 00:38:38.560 --> 00:38:46.880 my kids who, you know, are the same age as lots of you in this room that they're under when it 380 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:54.800 when it comes to sex and, you know, the pressure to sort of jump in sexually without any sense of 381 00:38:54.800 --> 00:39:02.000 commitment. I know that that is the oxygen that everybody's breathing that actually there's, 382 00:39:02.560 --> 00:39:10.320 you know, the norm, the normal thing as a teenager is to experiment sexually without any sense 383 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:19.200 of commitment. As a Christian, it's so tricky to try and live a different way because it seems 384 00:39:19.200 --> 00:39:24.560 so alien to everybody around you to, to everything that you're reading, everything that you're 385 00:39:24.560 --> 00:39:29.120 watching, everything you're listening to, it literally feels like you are swimming in the opposite 386 00:39:29.120 --> 00:39:37.760 direction. I really get that. And yet, it is possible. I want you to think about this. It is 387 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:46.000 possible that culture has got this wrong. And I think there is so much evidence if you want to look 388 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:54.800 for it that points to the fact that uncommitted sex does not do us any good. It might be great in 389 00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:58.320 the moment. Again, that's not pretend that it wouldn't feel great in the moment, that it 390 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:03.760 doesn't feel great in the moment. Of course, it does. Why would we desire it in that way physically? 391 00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:11.600 And yet, there is so, if you really, if you really look into it, actually the bigger picture is 392 00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:19.600 the way God designed for sex to work at its best in a committed long term relationship in a 393 00:40:19.680 --> 00:40:30.640 marriage. That is how it functions best. And so I think what I, what I long for is that 394 00:40:32.160 --> 00:40:41.360 for young people, for those that aren't married, you somehow can catch, capture a glimpse of why 395 00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:47.760 God set that boundary in place. And rather than seeing it as like a rule or something put there to 396 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:53.840 kind of limit fun or limit our expression or just make things really difficult in our social 397 00:40:53.840 --> 00:41:00.000 settings, actually it is there for a reason. I mentioned earlier as somebody who's sort of, 398 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:08.560 you know, I cross that line in my teens and in my twenties and it didn't bring about anything 399 00:41:08.640 --> 00:41:19.120 good in my life ultimately. And I'm so glad, I am so glad that God got hold of my life in my early 400 00:41:19.120 --> 00:41:25.680 twenties and showed me that there was a different way and I had the opportunity to to have a relationship 401 00:41:25.680 --> 00:41:34.800 with him where we put certain boundaries in place and they have only served us really well 402 00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:41.280 in our married life. And so I think like practically, you know, Tim said about friendships, 403 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:46.720 if there's a way that you can find people that share your values, like I talked to our kids, 404 00:41:46.720 --> 00:41:52.880 loads about values, you know, that actually what we're talking about here is not sort of being 405 00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:57.680 embarrassed, like sex isn't this sort of awkward embarrassing thing. Actually, we want to play 406 00:41:57.680 --> 00:42:05.520 such a high value on sex, like sex is amazing. It's these gift and we want to value it so 407 00:42:05.520 --> 00:42:11.680 highly that we want to protect it for this particular context, for this particular place, 408 00:42:11.680 --> 00:42:17.120 this boundary that God has set. Actually, if you look at the world, sex is just this function, 409 00:42:17.120 --> 00:42:25.840 it's this is such a low value and yet it's what everybody is obsessed by. And so try and find 410 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:30.640 those people that are going to share your value. So you don't always feel like the alien in the room 411 00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:37.360 that's swimming in a different direction. It is tricky. It is so tricky. It's important to acknowledge 412 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:45.280 that, but there is a way through and it is worth it. It is worth it. Yeah, I would echo all of that. 413 00:42:46.160 --> 00:42:52.480 I think the world has a complete, has got it completely upside down. 414 00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:57.360 I was just chatting to my son this morning who worked with Jackie Pullinger. Those of you who are 415 00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:02.960 here last year, you will have heard Jackie speak working in Hong Kong with those coming out of 416 00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:11.840 addiction. And she says, there's just three words beginning with H, heart, head and heat. And what 417 00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:19.360 she says is that the world says, heat, heart, head, but we need to turn that upside down, 418 00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:25.920 head, heart, heat. And I really think we have a lifetime to discover the physical intimacy 419 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:32.720 together if we're in a married relationship. And it's a beautiful thing. There's a book in the 420 00:43:32.720 --> 00:43:38.480 middle of the Bible, the song of songs. It's an erotic love poem. God invented sex, but he invented 421 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:45.760 it within the context of marriage, of commitment, of faithfulness, of all those things that keep 422 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:50.640 it safe. And I think just one more thing on that. I think sometimes we have certainly when I was 423 00:43:50.640 --> 00:43:54.880 growing up, and I'm not sure we did a great job with our children talking about it either, 424 00:43:54.880 --> 00:44:01.680 but it's the no sex and then sex when you're married. And we don't we don't fill in the gap. 425 00:44:01.680 --> 00:44:07.760 So I think we need to be talking about it so much more. And yeah, making that just a normal part. 426 00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:12.080 In the way that we talk about emotional intimacy and spiritual intimacy, let's have physical 427 00:44:12.080 --> 00:44:17.760 intimacy as part of the thing. Well, that leads into the question quite nicely. 428 00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:22.320 There was another question around that middle gap. There's lots of different boundaries. 429 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:28.560 Lots of people have different ways in which they fill in that middle gap. What do you guys think? 430 00:44:28.560 --> 00:44:36.880 How far is too far? So when Rachel and I started to date, we wanted to save sex into marriage. 431 00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:43.280 But again, that involves lots of conversations. And because things when you're falling in love 432 00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:49.280 with someone, if you're a red-blooded human being, lust is going to be something you battle with. 433 00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:52.000 And again, you think you get married, then you don't have a problem with lust. 434 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:57.520 You'd crush it too. So I think we've got to be aware of that. I think for us, 435 00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:04.000 we at times had to keep having the conversation. So we'd put some boundaries in place. We wouldn't 436 00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:12.560 stay over at each other's houses. We wouldn't get naked together. We wouldn't. I've tried to 437 00:45:12.560 --> 00:45:17.840 remember all the boundaries. So I don't go like, wouldn't touch what I haven't. Yeah, yeah, 438 00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:22.960 that was better way of putting it. Wouldn't go beyond kissing or tried to anyway. 439 00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:29.280 But I remember a time where, if I'm honest, we were the physical thing was getting 440 00:45:30.080 --> 00:45:36.880 heating up. Yes. So the kind of the natural urges to go further and further, becoming 441 00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:41.200 more and more difficult to navigate. So we actually did this thing during Lent. I remember one 442 00:45:41.200 --> 00:45:46.160 Lent when we were engaged. We gave up any kissing or physical contact for the whole of Lent. 443 00:45:47.600 --> 00:45:53.040 Some give up chocolate. We gave up kissing and snogging. And that was at times difficult. But what 444 00:45:53.040 --> 00:46:00.160 it did is it reset the boundaries. It deepened the friendship. And it was an amazing thing for our 445 00:46:00.160 --> 00:46:05.920 relationship. So I think you've just got to have the conversation. And this is the other thing. 446 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:12.080 I think the problem is shame and guilt when it comes to all of this stuff. You cross a line. You go 447 00:46:12.080 --> 00:46:18.560 further than you want to. You make a mistake. And the guilt consumes you. You think God's devastated 448 00:46:18.640 --> 00:46:23.600 with you. You're a failure. And we live in this. And then we think, well, I've crossed the line. So 449 00:46:23.600 --> 00:46:28.320 I may as well just keep on going. This is now the norm. And I think we've got to recognize we 450 00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:35.040 will all make mistakes, but we worship a God of forgiveness and mercy, the God of second chances. 451 00:46:35.040 --> 00:46:41.200 And so if you're carrying a sense of guilt, you feel sense of shame. Don't let that define you. 452 00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:48.080 Be honest about it with God. But I think sometimes a really crap answer in the church 453 00:46:48.080 --> 00:46:53.360 or a kind of glib answer is, well, just take it to Jesus. Yes, take it to Jesus. But actually, 454 00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:58.640 take it to a friend. God has given us a community and friendship. And if it wasn't for friends in 455 00:46:58.640 --> 00:47:03.920 my life, I don't know where I'd be. And at times Jesus speaks to you and meets with you and 456 00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:09.360 transforms you through your friends and your community. And so if you're carrying guilt, talk to 457 00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:15.840 someone. I went too far. I've made a mistake. Help me. Keep me accountable. What should I do? 458 00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:22.240 Those things are going to be so important to reset a boundary that you've crossed. 459 00:47:24.080 --> 00:47:28.480 And I just think that having those friends is absolutely critical. 460 00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:35.120 The only other thing I'd say is, for some, you might find yourself in a relationship with someone. 461 00:47:35.120 --> 00:47:41.120 And it might well be, I would hope, that they're a Christian, but they're putting pressure on you 462 00:47:41.120 --> 00:47:48.000 to go further. Sometimes we think, if I don't go further, they're going to end the relationship. 463 00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:54.800 You know, I'm going to risk them walking away. If I don't go as far as they want to sexually, 464 00:47:54.800 --> 00:48:00.080 then they're going to think that, you know, I'm frigid or they're just going to dump me and the 465 00:48:00.080 --> 00:48:05.920 relationship's going to end. And the thing that I've said over and over and over again, and I wish 466 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:13.520 that I had had that sort of spoken to me, was if you're in a relationship, someone who's 467 00:48:13.520 --> 00:48:20.240 pressuring you to go further, that is not a great sign of a good relationship, that actually, 468 00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:28.320 if someone honors you, they're going to honor the boundary that you want to set. And so if somebody 469 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:35.200 doesn't honor the boundary that you want to set physically in a relationship, honestly, I'd say 470 00:48:35.200 --> 00:48:41.200 get out of the relationship. Don't be with someone that's going to push you physically to go 471 00:48:41.200 --> 00:48:46.080 further than you want to go, because if they don't honor you in that, they won't honor you in other 472 00:48:46.080 --> 00:48:54.080 things. And honor and respect are the foundations of a good relationship. Oh, so good. Yeah, I would 473 00:48:54.080 --> 00:48:58.640 agree with that. A good question to ask, if we're asking the question, how far can we go? 474 00:48:59.120 --> 00:49:08.480 Why do we want to know in terms of are we asking just to see how far we can go? Or is it a better 475 00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:14.000 question about how can we put good boundaries that are about security? And just one final point, 476 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:19.680 a young girl I was talking to just last week, they were trying to just work this out. She's in her 477 00:49:19.680 --> 00:49:26.080 20s. And she said she had some regrets because when they weren't sure about something, should we 478 00:49:26.080 --> 00:49:31.840 set the boundary here or not, they always opted in, oh, we'll just do it. She said I wish now when 479 00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:37.440 we weren't sure we thought no, we won't do it. We'll take time to think because we've got a lifetime 480 00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:45.360 ahead of us. I feel like I have just taken in so much wisdom, so much stuff that I can apply 481 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:50.800 to my life. I don't know if any of you guys fall the same. Can we just thank our panel for that 482 00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:58.720 for Red Bull just incredible debt. And thank you guys for sharing and also being vulnerable as well, 483 00:49:58.720 --> 00:50:03.200 sharing parts of your stories like that just takes a lot. Thank you for pouring into us. 484 00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:09.120 Thanks so much for joining us for this podcast. If you guys are listening in on YouTube, 485 00:50:09.120 --> 00:50:13.520 make sure to subscribe and give us a little comment down below. But if you are tuning in on our 486 00:50:13.520 --> 00:50:19.120 Spotify and Apple Podcast, make sure to follow us and give us a little rating because over here 487 00:50:19.120 --> 00:50:23.920 at the way our mission is to reach every young person with a good news of Jesus. And then you 488 00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:28.240 doing that, you're helping us get to that point. But we'll see you in the next podcast.