WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.080
If you've had to give one relationship ritual to say in love, what would that be?

2
00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:09.360
Once a week, tell your partner three things that you love about them and three things they could have done better.

3
00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:12.880
But some people think you won't. If I told Dave that we're gonna start writing these notes to each other,

4
00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:14.560
he's gonna cringe, you're not gonna do it.

5
00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:18.560
Well shit, I honestly, Dave can't name three things he likes about you.

6
00:00:18.560 --> 00:00:22.400
Really Dave, is that a big ask? I absolutely call bullshit on that.

7
00:00:22.400 --> 00:00:25.600
The bigger question is, what's uncomfortable about that for you?

8
00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:28.400
And look, I'm not a therapist. I'm a divorce lawyer.

9
00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:31.600
I represent some of the most high-achieving minds, athletes,

10
00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:34.400
entrepreneurs, and they're just as bad at this as anybody.

11
00:00:34.400 --> 00:00:38.960
Because there's a part of us that's afraid to hope at what do you love about me?

12
00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:40.480
What am I getting wrong?

13
00:00:40.480 --> 00:00:43.040
And it's not just romantic relationships.

14
00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:48.400
My mom died 10 years ago after a long battle with cancer.

15
00:00:49.680 --> 00:00:53.760
There was a lot between us that needed to be said and wasn't said.

16
00:00:53.760 --> 00:00:58.640
And there's a part of me that wishes she was here,

17
00:00:59.360 --> 00:01:04.160
so that I could have apologized for some things that got wrong,

18
00:01:04.160 --> 00:01:05.680
but we don't do that.

19
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:09.600
Because people just don't want temporary discomfort.

20
00:01:09.600 --> 00:01:12.880
And so I think there's something deeply courageous about love,

21
00:01:12.880 --> 00:01:17.840
about commitment, about saying I'm going to give them the opportunity to hurt me.

22
00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:19.760
Like it's scary, but I'm brave.

23
00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:21.280
You know, your marriage will end.

24
00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:22.640
It ends in death or divorce.

25
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:25.680
And for two people at the end of their relationship to say,

26
00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.200
this person helped me become the most authentic version of myself.

27
00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:30.880
That's the greatest gift you could give to a mother.

28
00:01:31.600 --> 00:01:33.280
And as you can see from this photo,

29
00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:38.560
I just proposed to two my fiancee that I'd like some advice on how not to mess this up.

30
00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:41.680
Like if my fiancee ends up looking into your practice,

31
00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:43.680
what is the reason she's likely to end up there?

32
00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:46.800
The number one reason that I'm going to have a woman sitting across from me,

33
00:01:46.800 --> 00:01:49.840
divorcing someone who's a great provider, a great protector,

34
00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:54.400
is that is not obvious to everybody.

35
00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:56.800
And it'll keep me in business for the rest of my life.

36
00:01:59.520 --> 00:02:02.240
Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins.

37
00:02:02.240 --> 00:02:06.080
69% of you that listen to the show frequently haven't yet hit the follow button.

38
00:02:06.080 --> 00:02:10.080
And that follow button is very smart because it means you won't miss the best episodes.

39
00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:15.120
The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very

40
00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:16.320
prominently in your feed.

41
00:02:16.320 --> 00:02:18.400
So when we have our best episodes on this show,

42
00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:21.680
the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know.

43
00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:24.800
And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button.

44
00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:27.520
Thank you so, so, so much.

45
00:02:31.440 --> 00:02:37.440
James, as you can see from this photo, I just proposed to my fiancee.

46
00:02:37.440 --> 00:02:39.680
Gladly she said yes.

47
00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:44.720
So I brought you here in part because I'd like some advice on how not to mess this up,

48
00:02:44.720 --> 00:02:49.760
because I know from speaking to you previously, about 50% of people that get down on their knee

49
00:02:49.760 --> 00:02:51.360
end up messing it up in some way.

50
00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:55.600
Before we get into this though, and before you help me figure out how to stay in love and not mess it up,

51
00:02:55.600 --> 00:02:56.560
yeah.

52
00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.240
Where do you find us at as it relates to love as a society?

53
00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:03.040
If you were to zoom out in diagnosed societies,

54
00:03:03.040 --> 00:03:10.240
relationship with the subject of love, and their ability to keep it, find it and understand it,

55
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:11.200
where are we?

56
00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:15.360
I think we we're in this really uncomfortable moment as a culture.

57
00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:19.360
I think we want more than anything to feel real connection.

58
00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:23.200
I think we're sick of just looking at screens.

59
00:03:23.200 --> 00:03:26.880
I think we came out of the pandemic with a feeling of okay,

60
00:03:26.880 --> 00:03:31.120
I want to be in the world with other people and feel the warmth of real people.

61
00:03:32.160 --> 00:03:40.240
And yet we have an increasingly lower number of useful tools

62
00:03:41.040 --> 00:03:45.280
in finding connection and staying connected, which are two totally different skills.

63
00:03:46.160 --> 00:03:49.920
And yet we're yearning for it more than ever.

64
00:03:49.920 --> 00:03:54.240
So we're more hungry than we've ever been, and we have no idea how to cook.

65
00:03:55.440 --> 00:04:00.240
In your head, because you've seen so many people go through divorce and relationships fail,

66
00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:04.720
there must be a sort of checklist of things that I'm likely to mess up.

67
00:04:04.720 --> 00:04:08.800
Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, when I heard you got engaged,

68
00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:13.040
I was thrilled because I'm always cheering for people.

69
00:04:13.040 --> 00:04:14.800
I really am. I'm always cheering for love.

70
00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:19.360
And so I think in our prior conversations, you're obviously someone who loves very deeply.

71
00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:26.000
And the fact that you found this person, to me, is the most lovely thing.

72
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:29.760
I think at its core, this is your favorite person.

73
00:04:29.760 --> 00:04:32.240
I just can't think of anything more lovely than that.

74
00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:37.040
Like the idea that you would look at a person and go, you're my favorite person.

75
00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:40.720
And that person would look at you and say, you're my favorite person.

76
00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:43.040
And that you would know that it's true.

77
00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:44.720
Like when they say it, that it's true.

78
00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.720
Like that, that feels to me like something worth pursuing.

79
00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:52.480
That feels like something that if I tried to get it and I failed, I try again.

80
00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:56.800
Because if you could find it, it's just about the greatest thing in the world.

81
00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:01.280
Like the thought to me that I won't get to give a toast at your wedding,

82
00:05:01.280 --> 00:05:04.240
but I will say that if I was going to give the toast,

83
00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:08.240
it would be that there are two wishes I have for you.

84
00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:09.760
You know, your marriage will end.

85
00:05:09.760 --> 00:05:12.640
I mean, I've said it to you before in one of our first conversations,

86
00:05:12.640 --> 00:05:14.800
every marriage ends, it ends in death or divorce.

87
00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:16.880
I hope your ends in death.

88
00:05:16.880 --> 00:05:19.360
And I hope when it ends in death,

89
00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:21.760
that let's send you off first,

90
00:05:21.760 --> 00:05:27.680
that when you're dying, that she will say, hopefully to you or to those around,

91
00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:32.560
you helped me become the most authentic version of myself.

92
00:05:33.520 --> 00:05:35.280
And you're still my favorite person.

93
00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:39.440
Because I can't think of a greater blessing than that.

94
00:05:39.440 --> 00:05:42.000
Like for two people at the end of their life,

95
00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:43.920
at the end of their relationship to say,

96
00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.680
this person helped me become the most authentic version of myself,

97
00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:49.520
and they're still my favorite person.

98
00:05:49.520 --> 00:05:52.560
That's the greatest gift you could give to another human being, I think.

99
00:05:52.560 --> 00:06:00.080
And I like the idea that even in the face of knowing that this is risky,

100
00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.400
this is something that may not work,

101
00:06:02.400 --> 00:06:05.680
this is something that statistically the odds are against.

102
00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:07.120
But I'm going to give it a shot,

103
00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:10.640
because there's something it adds to my life,

104
00:06:10.640 --> 00:06:12.400
and there's something I add to her life,

105
00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:14.880
and we're going to give it a shot.

106
00:06:14.880 --> 00:06:16.800
I don't know, I found that very beautiful.

107
00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:19.520
As a divorce lawyer, who's also a very big fan of love,

108
00:06:19.520 --> 00:06:23.440
do you ever find yourself trying to get someone not to get a divorce?

109
00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.120
Has there ever been an instance where you look to the situation and thought,

110
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:29.840
you know what, they should just get back together.

111
00:06:29.840 --> 00:06:34.480
Yeah, what I'll say is my first thought is often

112
00:06:35.760 --> 00:06:39.200
is this person accurately perceiving the situation that they're in.

113
00:06:39.200 --> 00:06:40.880
So people will come in and they'll say,

114
00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:44.080
you know, people come to me in very different situations.

115
00:06:44.080 --> 00:06:46.000
So sometimes people will come to me,

116
00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.360
and they've been served with divorce papers, like the marriage is over.

117
00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.200
And now it's about, okay, we have to react defensively.

118
00:06:53.200 --> 00:06:56.240
So when people come to my office,

119
00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.560
the situation is often so dire and so broken

120
00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:03.840
that they're coming in to hire me for that specific purpose.

121
00:07:03.840 --> 00:07:06.000
But I will say without question,

122
00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:10.160
that if I get any sense that this person would either

123
00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:14.320
a benefit from individual therapy that might help them view

124
00:07:14.320 --> 00:07:18.400
the relationship differently and come to the relationship differently,

125
00:07:18.400 --> 00:07:20.640
I will not hesitate to refer them.

126
00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:24.000
And then there are people that, and it's more common

127
00:07:25.760 --> 00:07:30.000
than you'd think that something awful has happened in the relationship.

128
00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:31.920
They had an affair and got caught.

129
00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:33.680
They caught their spouse having an affair.

130
00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:38.320
They've lost their job and it created tremendous discord in their relationship.

131
00:07:38.320 --> 00:07:43.280
And that often will feel to me like something that perhaps would benefit from

132
00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.840
the intervention of mental health professionals or everyone just taking a breath

133
00:07:47.840 --> 00:07:50.080
and taking a minute, especially when there's kids involved.

134
00:07:50.080 --> 00:07:51.360
But even when there aren't.

135
00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:52.960
Are your clients predominantly men or women?

136
00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:54.800
It's pretty much an even split.

137
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:55.120
Really?

138
00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:55.600
Yeah.

139
00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.600
I represent a lot of either very high achieving

140
00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.640
high net worth individuals or people married to them.

141
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.120
And are the reasons that they come to you?

142
00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:07.200
Those two different groups, different,

143
00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:10.320
like the reason why they want a separation.

144
00:08:10.320 --> 00:08:11.520
Is it fundamentally different?

145
00:08:12.320 --> 00:08:14.560
So the specific example of cheating,

146
00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:18.960
I would say men get caught cheating more often than women.

147
00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:21.040
Does that mean they cheat more?

148
00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:23.280
No, it means they get caught cheating more.

149
00:08:23.280 --> 00:08:27.440
I don't think that anyone could really, truly, accurately say,

150
00:08:28.400 --> 00:08:31.680
you know, I know people love statistics and I know that, you know,

151
00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:35.600
guests have a tendency to come on and say, well, 72% of people who are bad,

152
00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:40.560
everything I'm saying is based on what I've observed in 25 years of facilitating the demise of

153
00:08:40.560 --> 00:08:42.960
marriages. Men and women both cheat.

154
00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.960
Men cheat in just more scatter shots stupid ways than women do.

155
00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.080
When women cheat in my experience professionally,

156
00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.480
it's usually an indication of like the, it's the absolute end of this relationship.

157
00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:01.120
The relationship is over and this is either a soft place to land or it's sort of a final

158
00:09:01.680 --> 00:09:05.520
opportunity for this person to solidify this woman as solidifying her head that, yeah,

159
00:09:05.520 --> 00:09:12.720
this thing is over. Whereas men, I really had hundreds at this point of men sit across

160
00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:18.480
for me who've been caught in an affair or sense that they're about to get caught in an affair

161
00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:23.120
and they say to me, like, yeah, this had nothing to do with my wife.

162
00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.600
Like, I love my wife. It had nothing to do with that. It just, I don't know, I just,

163
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:29.520
I don't know why I did what I did. I just did it.

164
00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:35.920
And I know everyone kind of wants to because in civilized society, it feels good to kind of go,

165
00:09:35.920 --> 00:09:39.360
like, oh, I can't believe that. That's how could someone say that? But,

166
00:09:40.160 --> 00:09:46.720
shut up. Like, if you have potato chips in your cabinet, you know, you know that you're not

167
00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:50.400
supposed to eat them. You don't want to eat them. You want vibrant good health. You want to

168
00:09:50.400 --> 00:09:55.360
take care of your, but they're there. They're there and you're human. And like, I can control my

169
00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:59.840
food environment better than my brain. Like, I have a lot of resolve when I wake up in the morning,

170
00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:03.920
but it about seven eight o'clock at night when I'm a little bit tired and it's been a long day and

171
00:10:03.920 --> 00:10:09.040
I deserve something nice. If the potato chips are there, I'm eating the potato chips. Like,

172
00:10:09.040 --> 00:10:16.240
we're human. We're human. There are times where we're just feeling lonely or hungry or angry or

173
00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:23.360
tired or some combination of those factors. And this warm thing, like the connection to another

174
00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:29.840
person, the joy of flirtation, the excitement of feeling the energy between yourself and whatever

175
00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:34.960
it is, type of person that you're attracted to, I think it's very normal. And then the problem

176
00:10:35.040 --> 00:10:39.920
becomes that you're not thinking about the consequences of those things. If you were thinking

177
00:10:39.920 --> 00:10:44.080
about the consequences of those things, you'd make better choices. But we all know that discipline

178
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:48.720
is trading what you want now for what you want most. And sometimes it's hard to remember what you

179
00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.480
want most and to keep it in your line of sight. So from your experience, you know, if my fiance

180
00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:59.440
someday ends up walking into your practice, what is the reason she's likely to end up there,

181
00:10:59.520 --> 00:11:03.120
from her perspective, asking you to help her get out of the relationship with me?

182
00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:09.680
The most obvious, if you're going to be like the most the average, the statistical average,

183
00:11:09.680 --> 00:11:15.120
it would be that you've stopped seeing her and stopped noticing her. In the list of things that

184
00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:20.960
are important to Steven, that she's somewhere in the middle to bottom of that list. Like for

185
00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.800
a high achiever like you, for someone who's entrepreneurial in the manner that you are, for someone

186
00:11:24.800 --> 00:11:29.440
who, you know, lives the kind of lifestyle that you do where you're on this coast one day and

187
00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:33.840
this country another day and flying here on a moment's notice and getting invitations to interesting

188
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:38.320
things and you have to triage because you couldn't possibly do all the things that you'd like to do.

189
00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:46.160
It usually would be that she just feels herself slipping in the rankings. And I think that

190
00:11:46.160 --> 00:11:53.360
that is often not a function of what you're like that lifestyle I just described. It's a function

191
00:11:53.360 --> 00:12:00.320
of where you take time to fit her into that because I genuinely have found tremendous number of

192
00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:06.560
examples of people who, and this is in the relationship work, who have that level of intensity in

193
00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:11.120
their life and that level of chaos in their schedule and it's unpredictable, but they have that

194
00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:18.240
ability every morning or every afternoon or every once in a while, but consistently to say,

195
00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:24.240
hey, I have a minute between recordings. I just wanted you know I was thinking of you or hey,

196
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:28.880
you know, I heard that song when I was in the car from here to here and it makes me think of you

197
00:12:28.880 --> 00:12:34.640
and I can't wait to see you next week. You know something like that to me like how hard is that?

198
00:12:34.640 --> 00:12:39.360
By the way, it doesn't have to be like a global lifestyle. It could even be, hey, we got a

199
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:45.440
couple of kids and two dogs and you know, my mom is sick and I got to tend to her. So I'm super

200
00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:50.240
busy, but how do you let your partner know, hey, you're still really important. We're still really

201
00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.720
connected to each other because that's the number one complaint. That's the number one reason,

202
00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:59.040
particularly with women that I'm going to have a woman sitting across from me divorcing someone

203
00:12:59.040 --> 00:13:06.000
who's a great provider, a great protector, great all of those things. That is not obvious to everybody.

204
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:10.160
And I'll be honest, it's not, it wasn't necessarily obvious to me the way that I operate

205
00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:14.160
naturally and this is just the way that I am. I've spoken to so many of my friends to understand

206
00:13:14.160 --> 00:13:19.200
how they operate and the way that their brain works is what I'm here, the only thing I'm thinking

207
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:26.960
about is this. And I almost, I'm remarkable at forgetting everything else and being completely

208
00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:33.200
here. Now that sounds like a good thing, but it also means that I can lose 14 hours and forget

209
00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:38.640
to check in. I can forget, you know, is it is it also true when you're with her?

210
00:13:38.640 --> 00:13:45.360
Yes, when we have scheduled the time, so when we scheduled the time to go and do something together,

211
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:48.960
I'm there, I'm not on my phone, I'm not to get the house. Good. I think that's a tremendous

212
00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:54.400
priority. I'm hearing more and more from people, the feeling of, yeah, we're together, but we're not

213
00:13:54.400 --> 00:13:59.440
together. We're sitting there and they're on their phone or they're doing other things. And I think

214
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:06.880
that it's really, really important that one of the really important aspects of relationship be

215
00:14:06.880 --> 00:14:11.680
that there is time where you give each other that level of focus. But again, you know, like it's

216
00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:17.360
just not something we are necessarily taught. We have maybe, we have our parents as models, but

217
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:23.040
very often they're not good models. What's interesting here as well is for some reason, I've chosen

218
00:14:23.040 --> 00:14:27.920
someone who's like the opposite of me in terms of the way that I am because. Probably. Yeah,

219
00:14:27.920 --> 00:14:31.200
probably. And when I spoke into some of my friends who are quite like me, they've also chosen

220
00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:35.360
partners who are the opposite of them. Could you imagine? I know. Could you imagine two of you?

221
00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:40.480
Like imagine me with me. You know, you with you that would like it would be so intense.

222
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:46.000
This is why it becomes so easy to misunderstand because we go through life assuming the other person

223
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:51.440
has the same perspective as we do. And they feel the same way that we do about things. And

224
00:14:51.520 --> 00:15:00.560
what's the solution to that? I've had to learn to check in. Yeah, but don't you think she loves

225
00:15:00.560 --> 00:15:03.120
that about you? She does. She actually just sent me a message this morning saying thank you so

226
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:07.040
much because I said when I left this time, I said, listen, I'm going to FaceTime me every day,

227
00:15:07.040 --> 00:15:13.360
even if it's for just one minute. Yeah. So isn't that lovely though? You're still trying to

228
00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:17.840
figure out how can I be better at this thing? And that's amazing. That's a beautiful thing. You

229
00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:25.360
know, what's so funny is if I walked into your home and on the table, there was, you know,

230
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:30.720
the power of habit by during or the seven habits of highly effective people, I would go, oh,

231
00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.320
look at, look at Stephen, he's still so successfully, still trying to sharpen the point of the

232
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:38.240
spirit. Amazing, you know, but if you walk in and you see a book, you know, how to stay in love,

233
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.840
you go, ooh, things are right with Stephen, like things going okay, what's going on with the

234
00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:49.040
relationship? Why don't we as a society just acknowledge we're kind of bad at this. We're kind

235
00:15:49.040 --> 00:15:53.360
of bad at maintaining connection. We're kind of bad at helping like feeling loved and feeling

236
00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:58.240
worthy of love and helping our partner feel loved and figuring out how to maintain connection.

237
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:06.640
And maybe the key is that little thing that one minute FaceTime, that one minute of saying,

238
00:16:06.640 --> 00:16:12.080
hey, maybe we should try this other thing. What are you actually saying? What you're actually

239
00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:18.720
saying is I want to be good at this job. How can I be good at this job? How can I stay good at it?

240
00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:24.480
How can I get even better at it? Like we go for the job interview and we want this job so bad.

241
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:30.560
Like that's what dating is. Dating is, I'm sending my resume all over the place. I'm sending it all

242
00:16:30.560 --> 00:16:34.400
over the place. I hope I can find something, something that suits my skills and my needs and where

243
00:16:34.400 --> 00:16:38.320
they want me and I'll be well compensated and I'll get something from it and I'll give something

244
00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:42.320
to it because I have all this talent and I have all this stuff and I want to give it to a worthy

245
00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:46.480
cause and I want to be compensated for that and I want to feel part of something that's all

246
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:51.840
dating is. It's a job interview and then you get the job. And for a little while you're like,

247
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:56.240
oh, I got the job. It's the oh my gosh, you should see the ball office is amazing and you should

248
00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.760
do and I could I know exactly who's going to go. There's room for growth. There's room for growth

249
00:16:59.760 --> 00:17:03.440
in this job. It's going to be great. You know, and I really feel like there's room for advancement.

250
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.680
Like this could be the job. This could be my career. This could be my vocation. It could be

251
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.760
meaningful and wonderful. I think I have something I could contribute to and we're so excited

252
00:17:11.760 --> 00:17:16.400
and you jump ahead three years later and we're like, oh, that's a fucking job. That's a job. Yeah,

253
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:20.320
no, I got to go to work again. Like, yeah, all right. There you go. That's it. You know, I got a

254
00:17:20.320 --> 00:17:25.840
friend who just got the best job. Oh my god, they have their they got the great and that's all we

255
00:17:25.840 --> 00:17:33.520
instead of trying to remember that at some point the relationship that you're in was something

256
00:17:33.520 --> 00:17:41.440
you aspire to. Like the idea that you were someday going to find a person who just was your

257
00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.840
favorite person and you were their favorite person and you were going to be there for each other

258
00:17:45.840 --> 00:17:51.200
and see each other's blind spots and help each other like figure out who you are and be it

259
00:17:51.760 --> 00:17:56.000
and that you were going to grow together and change together and some core things would stay

260
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.960
exactly the same and some things would change in beautiful, meaningful ways and you'd see

261
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:05.280
each other through amazing things and terrible things and all the things that the world throws at

262
00:18:05.280 --> 00:18:13.760
you. You'd never be alone again because you'd have this person like and somehow it's considered

263
00:18:13.760 --> 00:18:19.680
sort of odd to check in and want to be good at that job and have performance reviews. Like you

264
00:18:19.760 --> 00:18:25.200
run teams, you run so many teams. How often do you go? We don't need that performance reviews.

265
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:31.200
I think at the heart of this is we assume probably through media and social media that

266
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:36.720
relationships are supposed to be effortless. Why? It's just this kind of what you see, right? Like

267
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:41.520
I remember, I remember my girlfriend telling me the other day, she was like, oh,

268
00:18:41.520 --> 00:18:46.720
this is a couple I follow on Instagram and they're like amazing. They're like the perfect couple

269
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:51.520
and it's just just turned out that the guy is sleeping with someone else and I thought and again

270
00:18:51.520 --> 00:18:57.040
I thought, well that watch my girlfriend vicariously watching that couple for the last five years

271
00:18:57.040 --> 00:19:00.640
is probably increased her expectations on what a relationship should be because she's just had

272
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:06.880
this sort of two-dimensional window but there was some the natural mess of relationship was taking

273
00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:12.160
place outside of view and we all just have the 2D window. Relationship problems on Instagram

274
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:17.120
broadcasting that doesn't doesn't try to follow a ship. No, and what what I'll also say is look,

275
00:19:17.120 --> 00:19:24.160
we formulate a lot of our conception of what a relationship should look like by portrayals of

276
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:32.480
relationships in film and television, right? Yeah, okay. So can we agree that the romcom or the

277
00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:40.560
romantic film is basically just an emotional version of pornography? Like it's a stylized,

278
00:19:41.280 --> 00:19:49.520
exerted falsehood that's designed to amplify the most visually and emotionally compelling or

279
00:19:49.520 --> 00:19:55.120
stimulating aspects of things. Like yes, there's conflict but it gets cleaned up very neatly and

280
00:19:55.120 --> 00:20:03.760
very nicely. So this perception that relationship should be effortless is based I think on largely

281
00:20:03.760 --> 00:20:09.040
that which is this feeling that again whether a story is a comedy or a tragedy depends on where

282
00:20:09.040 --> 00:20:14.160
you end the story, right? So we always end the story in a spot where it's like ta-da, they're in

283
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:20.800
love and they walk off hand in hand but right, they walk up into life. They walk off into this ecosystem

284
00:20:20.800 --> 00:20:26.000
of life that's filled with complexity and there's factors beyond our control that are impacting

285
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.560
our emotional state and the emotional state of our partner, the you, the me, and the we. So there's

286
00:20:30.560 --> 00:20:37.840
a lot going on and the thought that well this should be effortless. Everything else is a lot of work

287
00:20:37.840 --> 00:20:44.320
and potentially. And by the way, the opposite, like this is effortless and this is a drudgery

288
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:51.600
and we tend to just see things in that binary way unnecessarily. Like we've made so much progress

289
00:20:51.600 --> 00:20:56.640
as a society when it comes to not viewing everything in a binary. Like there's not as much

290
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:03.040
rigidity about gender roles anymore. There's not as a rigidity about, you know, are you a worker

291
00:21:03.040 --> 00:21:07.760
or are you like a career person or a family person? Like there's a sense of way you can kind of be

292
00:21:07.760 --> 00:21:13.040
a little bit above. Like look at these things as a spectrum a little bit. So but this we're still

293
00:21:13.040 --> 00:21:17.760
pretty glued into this idea that like relationships are supposed to be the smoothest, easiest thing

294
00:21:17.760 --> 00:21:22.240
or relationships are hard work. You're not supposed to be happy all the time and shut up if you

295
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:26.080
think that that's what you're, oh, you're not happy. Nobody's happy or you're not supposed to be happy.

296
00:21:26.080 --> 00:21:29.680
It's not the point of marriage, the point of marriage is a commitment. A relationship supposed to

297
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:35.280
be simple. I don't know what you mean by simple. Simple to navigate. No, they're obviously not

298
00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:40.320
simple to navigate because 56% of them end in divorce. Is it going to be hard? If your definition

299
00:21:40.320 --> 00:21:49.280
of hard is I have to pay some level of attention to it, then yes, it's going to be hard. Is that

300
00:21:49.280 --> 00:21:56.960
hard? Like is that hard? Really? Is that hard? Like I don't think it's that hard. Paying attention

301
00:21:57.040 --> 00:22:06.000
isn't that hard. Remembering to pay attention might be hard. But don't you create reminders for

302
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:12.240
yourself? You've got so many gadgets and you can't have some reminder in the day of like, oh,

303
00:22:13.520 --> 00:22:17.840
her. Keep her in my line of sight. Again, it doesn't mean you don't love her that she's not

304
00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:22.480
front of mind. It means you're a driven, hard working person. I'm a driven, hard working person.

305
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:27.360
There's tons of times where very important things in my life aren't front of mind, but that's

306
00:22:27.360 --> 00:22:33.360
why I use reminders. To invert that question that I asked at the top of this, if I am to come

307
00:22:33.360 --> 00:22:39.040
to you at some point in the future, James, and I say listen, I need a divorce. What am I likely to

308
00:22:39.040 --> 00:22:44.240
give as the reason for that based on who I am and how that correlates to the clients like me that

309
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:50.480
you deal with? The reason you're going to give an underlying reason is different. The reason you're

310
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:54.240
going to give is going to be a practical reason, which is either I've met someone else,

311
00:22:54.240 --> 00:23:00.960
she's met someone else. We've had a terrible fight and I've said things that we can't take back.

312
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:07.360
I had a spectacular failure financially and she's just bailing on me because she sees that the

313
00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:13.520
future's really rocky or she made some terrible decision and did something awful that's a betrayal

314
00:23:13.600 --> 00:23:22.240
that I can't abide by. Again, that's the presenting reason. Underneath that is the bigger reason,

315
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:30.160
which is we lost the plot. We lost the plot. That's the start of a chapter in a story. It's the end

316
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:37.840
of a chapter in the start of a chapter that photo. The first chapter in that story was this person

317
00:23:37.840 --> 00:23:43.600
and this person wandering around on the same planet, trying to figure it out, trying to figure out

318
00:23:43.600 --> 00:23:49.680
what they're doing. They have their origin story and they have their complementary pathologies

319
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:56.640
that developed over time and then they found each other. Eight billion people in the world

320
00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:03.920
and somehow their paths intersected. They started to have this connection. There was the you

321
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:10.080
and there was the me and then there was the we. That then diagram started. Then you start to

322
00:24:10.080 --> 00:24:15.840
fill it with things. You fill it with people. You fill it with experiences. This is just to stop

323
00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:22.640
along the way. These two people, this is just a moment. It's an incredible moment. It can be

324
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:29.440
cumran. It can be a moment that there was this and then everything after this. It's a punctuation

325
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:36.160
mark. I like to say that life has punctuation marks. You had a kid. You lost your job. You got a

326
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:43.040
job. Those are punctuation marks. This is a big punctuation mark and it will either be the

327
00:24:43.040 --> 00:24:48.080
beginning of the end or the end of the beginning. You get to write that. You get to write that

328
00:24:48.080 --> 00:24:54.560
chapter. This is a moment for me. The reason why this is a beautiful moment is this is a moment

329
00:24:54.560 --> 00:25:00.480
of tremendous optimism. This is a moment where the two of you said, you're my favorite person

330
00:25:01.360 --> 00:25:09.680
and I want to write this next chapter with you as having a different title in it. But really

331
00:25:10.320 --> 00:25:16.560
the title is just a symbol. The ring is just a symbol. It's just a symbol of a commitment. It's

332
00:25:16.560 --> 00:25:23.200
a symbol of a promise and all the promises is a symbol of intention. That's all. It's just an

333
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.960
intention. Our intention is we're not going to be alone anymore. We're going to do this together.

334
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:30.960
And by the way, you're already not alone. The fact that you got to this place that you would

335
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:37.040
ask this question, that's a beautiful confirmation of the fact that you don't feel alone. We would

336
00:25:37.040 --> 00:25:43.280
have lost the plot. Yeah. You would have lost the plot of the story. So this is a story. Where does

337
00:25:43.280 --> 00:25:48.880
this story go? Where do you want it to go? You want it to go to a future that features the two of

338
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:55.680
you all together someday. Maybe it features children. Maybe it features companion animals.

339
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:59.920
And what is the most likely reason that we would lose the plot? You stop paying attention.

340
00:26:00.800 --> 00:26:04.880
You stop doing what you're currently doing. How did you get to this beautiful moment?

341
00:26:05.840 --> 00:26:11.280
You start doing the opposite. You got to this moment by paying attention. You got to this moment

342
00:26:11.280 --> 00:26:18.000
by making this a priority. You got to this moment by keeping this front of mind, by valuing what

343
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:21.840
is this but a symbol of you are valuable to me? Why did you get on one knee?

344
00:26:23.040 --> 00:26:27.360
Why do you get on one knee? I mean, think about the symbols of all of this. We live in a world of

345
00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:34.960
symbols. Like the outfit I'm wearing, I'm saying something to you. I take this seriously. That's

346
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:40.480
why you wear a suit. Is you wear a suit to say I take this seriously? So why did you do this? What

347
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:45.680
is this a symbol? I'm down on one knee. Why? I'm humbling myself in front of you. I'm offering

348
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:50.480
something to you. I'm hoping you will accept the gift I am giving to you. Like there's

349
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:57.280
something very lovely about that symbol. Is this what you call slippage? Slippage is exactly

350
00:26:57.280 --> 00:27:04.000
when you start to unintentionally. Again, people rarely have slippage intentionally.

351
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:09.840
It's usually that, okay, we got that knocked out now. We can focus on the other stuff.

352
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:16.640
And that's slippage. Slippage is the small disconnections. Small disconnections that

353
00:27:17.600 --> 00:27:23.520
in of themselves mean nothing. Like no single raindrops responsible for the flood. That little

354
00:27:23.520 --> 00:27:29.760
raindrop, it's just a little raindrop. That's all it really is. But slippage is this gradually

355
00:27:29.760 --> 00:27:37.120
increasing number of small disconnections that eventually leads to the giant marriage killer

356
00:27:37.600 --> 00:27:43.840
that you come in and say, here's why we're getting divorced. But it wasn't that. It was all these

357
00:27:43.840 --> 00:27:48.720
little pieces. But at some point, you were there. Do you think people

358
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:54.000
spot the slippage in the moment, but they don't think it's big enough to fight about or do

359
00:27:54.000 --> 00:28:00.880
something about 100% and that's the cognitive bias. That's the fallacy that will keep me in

360
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:07.920
business for the rest of my life. Because people just don't want temporary discomfort.

361
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:16.000
Like our desire for joy versus our aversion to pain. Our aversion to pain will win every

362
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:22.880
single time. We know this. That's why there was an opiate crisis more so than a cocaine crisis.

363
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.240
Because one of those things is about making you feel really good and the other is about

364
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:32.080
getting rid of pain. Like the human desire, any scientist will tell you this, ask our friend

365
00:28:32.080 --> 00:28:39.920
Andrew Huberman, ask anybody. They will tell you the human desire to escape pain is the controlling

366
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:49.120
aspect of self. So escaping pain, even discomfort, and this is pushed by the narrative that love

367
00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:53.600
should be easy. If anything's uncomfortable about it, you must be doing it wrong. Maybe you're

368
00:28:53.600 --> 00:28:57.600
not with your soulmate. You know, it would be so easy and effortless. You'd always know what

369
00:28:57.600 --> 00:29:01.200
the other person wanted. You'd never have to tell them. They would know. They would know you well

370
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:06.560
enough to know what it is that you need and they would get you even though by the way, really,

371
00:29:06.560 --> 00:29:15.040
really? Like I'm 53 years old. I've been in therapy for 20 years. I get like 70% of this guy.

372
00:29:15.760 --> 00:29:23.040
I think like at best, like and I'm in here. I'm in here and I get about 70% of this guy.

373
00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:29.440
Like and I'm supposed to get you 100% because we're exchanging bodily fluids. Like we're I'm supposed

374
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:34.400
to just because we've slept in the same bed. I'm supposed to get you 100% and get ahead of stuff.

375
00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:42.560
Like I get me 70% and that's with a lot of reflection. So I really think that it's wildly unfair

376
00:29:43.280 --> 00:29:48.800
for us to think that, you know, this should be effortless. This should be easy and that it should

377
00:29:48.800 --> 00:29:53.600
never be uncomfortable. It's okay to be like, I think because of what I do for a living,

378
00:29:54.240 --> 00:30:00.320
I have to tell people things they don't want to hear all day because it's true and I tell them

379
00:30:00.320 --> 00:30:04.160
what they need to hear now that they want to hear. And you know, when clients say to me at the end

380
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:08.400
of a consultation or conversation, like, oh my God, I feel so much better. I always go, that's great.

381
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:13.840
That wasn't my intention because I don't want anyone I talk to professionally to think I am

382
00:30:13.840 --> 00:30:17.920
telling you something to make you feel better. I'm not here to make you feel better. I'm not a therapist.

383
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:23.200
I'm here to tell you the truth. And if the truth makes you feel better, great. If the truth

384
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:28.960
makes you uncomfortable, at least you know the truth now. So I feel like in relationship, again,

385
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:36.400
if what you want most is lasting lifelong connection where we get each other as best we can,

386
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:43.120
we can help each other navigate self and each other as best we can and we cannot lose the plot

387
00:30:43.760 --> 00:30:48.880
of a story that is really beautiful right now. So everybody listening can probably think

388
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:55.280
about something in their relationship, which has gotten a little bit worse since they first

389
00:30:55.280 --> 00:31:01.680
got into that relationship. And it could be the way that they argue is getting a little bit worse.

390
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:06.160
They're not listening as much. Maybe the tone has gone up or it's getting a little bit more

391
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:12.320
angry. Whatever it is in their relationship, what do they need to do now? It's like it's not

392
00:31:12.320 --> 00:31:16.240
flooded yet. But that's time to look at it. Best time to talk about it.

393
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:22.800
There's a puddle. So what I do for a living in court is I try to manipulate people's emotional state.

394
00:31:22.800 --> 00:31:27.760
That's my job. My job is to go and make the judge like my client dislike the other side. I want the

395
00:31:27.760 --> 00:31:31.520
other side to feel scared or want my client to feel safe. I want the court reporter who's taking

396
00:31:31.520 --> 00:31:36.560
things down in the court officer to like me and to like my client so that when we take a break

397
00:31:36.560 --> 00:31:40.560
in testimony and they go in the back with the judge, they go, I like Jimmy's a really good lawyer.

398
00:31:40.560 --> 00:31:44.960
Oh, his client seems so nice or boy, the other guy seems like a jerk or boy, that other lawyer

399
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:49.280
is a jerk. So I'm here manipulating people's emotional state. That's my job. That's what a trial

400
00:31:49.280 --> 00:31:55.040
lawyer does. We manipulate people's emotional state. We play with the levers, right? So I say this

401
00:31:55.040 --> 00:32:02.000
as to say we should be doing this in our relationships. There's nothing nefarious about that.

402
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:08.160
These are tools and how you use them will give you a sense of whether it's good or bad or what

403
00:32:08.560 --> 00:32:15.280
look, if what you are doing is to maintain connection, how you parse it is going to be everything.

404
00:32:15.280 --> 00:32:19.120
So even the way you just said that, like well, something's kind of going wrong in the relationship.

405
00:32:19.120 --> 00:32:24.480
Okay, we're already off to the wrong narrative because when someone tells you something's been done

406
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:28.880
wrong, there's this automatic defensive response of well, I didn't mean to do it wrong and well,

407
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.640
you know, it's not my fault that I did it wrong. It brings out something defensive in us.

408
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:38.160
Rather than saying something's changed, have you noticed that something's changed?

409
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:41.760
Have you noticed that? Remember when we used to talk to each other about you know, sometimes like

410
00:32:41.760 --> 00:32:45.520
and I don't know if it's something that I've done and if it is, you know, I really would appreciate

411
00:32:45.520 --> 00:32:50.160
you telling me, but like when we have been fighting lately, like the tone seems to have changed,

412
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:57.600
have you noticed that? Is it just me? Now it's a non-defensive dialogue. I'm not accusing you of

413
00:32:57.600 --> 00:33:05.040
something. I'm noting that something has changed and by the way, good, we love it. Look at how much

414
00:33:05.040 --> 00:33:11.280
we love each other in that picture. Like look at put the wedding photos up somewhere. Look at that

415
00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:17.360
moment. We were nuts about each other in that moment. We were everything the other person ever wanted

416
00:33:17.360 --> 00:33:24.240
and more. So anytime something has changed from that, don't you want to know? Don't you want to know?

417
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:29.040
And by the way, not in an accusatory fashion. The most common one is we're not having sex as much

418
00:33:29.040 --> 00:33:32.480
as we used to. We're not having sex as we used to. We're not having much sex. I'm not getting as much

419
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:37.600
oral sex as I used to get. We're not getting, okay, there's a way to say that. The way I just said it,

420
00:33:37.600 --> 00:33:41.760
that's just going to blow up in your face. It's not going to work because it's, well, you haven't

421
00:33:41.760 --> 00:33:44.800
been around as much. Well, I haven't been around as much as I'm working so much and I don't see

422
00:33:44.800 --> 00:33:48.640
you spending less. Well, you know, honestly, if it comes down to that, I'd spend a lot to not have

423
00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:54.000
you treat me this way. Now we're just having a fight. Whereas if we say like, I don't remember how

424
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:57.600
close, remember when we went away, I was just thinking yesterday about when we went away that weekend.

425
00:33:57.600 --> 00:34:02.000
Remember, we ended up not even leaving the room so fun. I love when we're like feeling that

426
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:06.720
connected and close, you know, I feel like, I feel like lately sometimes like we're maybe not

427
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:11.680
as connected and close like, and if there's something I'm doing that's making that like I really

428
00:34:11.680 --> 00:34:15.280
want to get it right. Like I really want to get it right. You know, there's something about

429
00:34:16.720 --> 00:34:22.800
apologizing first, like having some humility and relationship that has tremendous value. Like when a

430
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:30.480
lawyer, like I'll tell you one of my trade secrets, you know, my job is a very combative job sometimes.

431
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:34.240
So there's times where being very aggressive is the right, but there's times where being aggressive

432
00:34:34.240 --> 00:34:38.160
just doesn't accomplish anything. And if I'm interacting with a lawyer for the first time,

433
00:34:38.160 --> 00:34:42.240
this is someone I haven't had cases with so we don't know each other except by reputation.

434
00:34:43.040 --> 00:34:48.880
And they come at me really hard. The first thing I'll do is apologize. I'll say, you know, I,

435
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:54.880
I'm sorry, I just have to say like your tone, like you're coming at me, like if I said something

436
00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:00.880
in our initial interaction that made you feel like that I didn't have respect for you or that,

437
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:05.680
you know, I didn't value your perspective or like I have a tendency to interrupt people sometimes.

438
00:35:05.680 --> 00:35:09.600
I have a tendency to say so if I offended you, I apologize because the way that you're kind of

439
00:35:09.600 --> 00:35:14.400
talking to me, like I feel like I must have said something wrong or I must have so I apologize

440
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:20.640
absolutely if I did. What is the, what choice do they have? But to then go, oh, no, no, that's,

441
00:35:20.640 --> 00:35:24.640
that's just my tone. That's just how I, oh, yeah, of course, look, hey, we all have a game phase

442
00:35:24.640 --> 00:35:28.240
right there. I just felt like, oh my god, like this guy's coming at me so hard, like I,

443
00:35:28.240 --> 00:35:33.440
I feel like I must have said something inadvertently or, you know, and then everyone's kind of calmer now.

444
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:41.200
You know, so I think that this is a very easy way to invite discussion about these small

445
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:45.440
preventative maintenance things without turning it into a whole like, because we again,

446
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:48.640
we just think that, oh, if I bring that up, it's going to turn into a whole thing,

447
00:35:48.640 --> 00:35:51.600
it doesn't have to turn into a whole thing. Period.

448
00:35:52.640 --> 00:35:56.960
Yeah, I think I asked that in part because I, it's something that I've like,

449
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:01.440
subtly noticed that when we were, when we first met seven years ago, we were much more patient.

450
00:36:02.640 --> 00:36:07.680
And I'm like, I probably need to have a conversation about returning to being more patient when

451
00:36:07.680 --> 00:36:11.280
we're trying to solve problems. We kind of like rush through them now. And I just, I'm like,

452
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:15.600
oh, you play this forward. You play this forward a decade or two decades. I'm like, damn,

453
00:36:15.600 --> 00:36:19.680
we're really not going to be great solving problems if we don't just like slow down with them.

454
00:36:19.680 --> 00:36:22.800
Yeah. And a lot of that just means like listening to the other person's point of view a bit

455
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:28.720
bit more intently. Yeah, and that's hard. That's hard because, you know, your brain moves quickly.

456
00:36:28.720 --> 00:36:33.200
Like, it's something I struggle with in relationship for sure. Like any kind of relationship is,

457
00:36:33.200 --> 00:36:36.720
I'm very like, I come on, we got to land this plane. Like, let's go, like, skip to the end time

458
00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:40.880
as money. Like, what are we doing? Where are we on with this? Like, and I, I'm terrible at it.

459
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:46.400
I interrupt people constantly. Like, I'm not good at that. And it's something I'm working on because

460
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:53.600
I think I know what they have to say next. And I'm wrong a lot of the time, especially in

461
00:36:53.600 --> 00:36:58.320
relationship, I'm wrong. So like, it's not a popular opinion to say that men and women are different,

462
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:04.160
but men and women are different. And I don't say that to say one is superior and one is inferior.

463
00:37:04.160 --> 00:37:10.320
I say that to say that we're different. We navigate things differently. We experience life

464
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:14.320
differently. We're treated differently from a societal standpoint. We've had different life

465
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:23.120
experiences. And I genuinely believe that it would be very valuable for us in relationship to

466
00:37:23.120 --> 00:37:28.720
sort of think, hey, I don't really know everything about how this person is wired. It took me

467
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:38.560
fully 40-some odd years, if not 50, to figure out that if I'm in a romantic relationship with a

468
00:37:38.560 --> 00:37:42.400
woman and she comes home and starts telling me about something that's upsetting to her,

469
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:47.520
that she doesn't want what my male friends want. Like, if I called a buddy in mind, if I called

470
00:37:47.520 --> 00:37:51.520
you, I've called you before, if I called you and I said, Steven, I'm having this problem in,

471
00:37:51.520 --> 00:37:56.640
I'm dealing with one of my sons and he's doing an X-Wine. Say, if you went, that must be very

472
00:37:56.640 --> 00:38:02.560
hard, Jim. I'd be like, yes, it is, Steven, that's why I called you. Do you have any suggestions?

473
00:38:02.560 --> 00:38:06.000
Like, what do you think I should do here? Like, you're a smart guy. I called you because I wanted

474
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:14.080
you to help me. Very often, that is the opposite. Most women want you to hear them, give them some

475
00:38:14.080 --> 00:38:20.480
support. You guys can have this conversation. A couple can have this conversation. You can say,

476
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:27.200
hey, listen, right now, in this moment, you're not coming to me with a problem. But when you come

477
00:38:27.200 --> 00:38:33.520
to me with a problem, my natural perclivity is to start throwing solutions. And I've learned,

478
00:38:33.520 --> 00:38:39.280
or I heard sextons say on Steven's show, that maybe that's not the best way. Do you find that's

479
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:43.200
true? Like, do you want me to maybe, like, when you say these things, could I? Because again,

480
00:38:43.200 --> 00:38:48.960
this is a job. I want to be good at this job. Why is it wrong for me to ask you how to,

481
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:55.120
how can I be better at this job? I found it really useful to state explicitly to my fiance,

482
00:38:55.120 --> 00:38:59.840
what my needs are in those situations. And again, it didn't come actually to her and vice versa.

483
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:05.840
Like, what she needs from me in those situations is the opposite of what I need from her in those

484
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:08.480
situations. Yeah. I'm thinking particularly when she's like going through something and she's

485
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:19.040
struggling with something, she wants me to be, be present. And she often wants, like, some advice

486
00:39:19.040 --> 00:39:28.560
on it. And she, and her advice is like the opposite of mine often. And in the inverse, when I'm

487
00:39:28.560 --> 00:39:36.560
going through those situations, I actually don't want to talk about it at all. Yeah. I just wanted

488
00:39:36.560 --> 00:39:41.200
to be there. Yeah. Yeah. But she wants to talk about, I don't want to talk about it. But what would

489
00:39:41.200 --> 00:39:52.000
be wrong with saying in that moment, I've got a menu. I've got a menu for you. Can you tell me

490
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:56.800
which one you want? Because just like, just like you said, you're hungry. And I said, what are you

491
00:39:56.800 --> 00:40:02.400
hungry for? Do you want sushi? Do you want me to make you something? Do you want some cheese toast?

492
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:06.640
Do you want us to go out someplace and we can get burgers? What is it you want, right?

493
00:40:07.200 --> 00:40:13.040
Couldn't you just say, hey, I've got a menu. I can just listen and tell you I love you and just

494
00:40:13.040 --> 00:40:22.080
be here. I can give you some solutions and how I might handle the problem. I can try to distract you

495
00:40:22.080 --> 00:40:25.760
and tell you a funny story about something that happened to me today or I can pick you up and

496
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:29.520
tickle you. We can go in the other room and roll around in the sheets for a little while and take

497
00:40:29.520 --> 00:40:33.520
your mind off it and then we can figure out which of the other options you might want. We can go

498
00:40:33.520 --> 00:40:38.560
for a walk together and we can talk about it or not talk about it. What would you like on the menu?

499
00:40:38.560 --> 00:40:43.520
Because that's, I'm serving all of those things for you. Which one would you like? And the worst

500
00:40:43.520 --> 00:40:48.800
thing she could say is, I don't know. And you go, okay, then I'm going to pick one. I'm going to

501
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:53.280
pick one. And if it feels good, great. And if it doesn't, you'll tell me, okay? And I won't be

502
00:40:53.280 --> 00:41:00.000
offended. Like again, what that takes, Steven? 30 seconds. 30 seconds throw that out there. Like

503
00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:06.320
that's instead of just blindly throwing darts at the target not knowing where the target is.

504
00:41:07.200 --> 00:41:14.560
If you had to give everybody listening one relationship ritual that you would think would most

505
00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:20.480
increase the probability that they stay together, stay in love. What would that relationship

506
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:28.080
ritual be? I think that once a week you should make a specific task of telling your partner three

507
00:41:28.080 --> 00:41:33.360
things that you really like about them. And every week it should be something different.

508
00:41:34.080 --> 00:41:37.680
I think you should tell your partner. If you really want to take the advanced edition of this,

509
00:41:38.560 --> 00:41:42.320
if you want to turn it from a 30 second task into like a whole five minutes that you devote to

510
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:46.320
your relationship, you know, I feel about relationship maintenance the way that I've ever heard

511
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:50.880
the story. I think the Dalai Lama is the one credited with saying it. So that's the high end

512
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:54.640
executive, you know, paid a colossal amount of money to have a private audience with the Dalai Lama.

513
00:41:55.360 --> 00:42:00.160
And the Dalai Lama said, do him, you know, if you're searching for inner peace, you should meditate

514
00:42:00.160 --> 00:42:04.880
for 15 minutes a day. And the executive said, I don't have 15 minutes a day to meditate. And he

515
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:10.320
said, then you should meditate for an hour a day. I feel the same way. If you don't have five minutes

516
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:15.600
a week to devote to your spouse or partner, then you're going to need hours. I think you should

517
00:42:15.600 --> 00:42:22.720
actually set aside hours like five minutes a week. I would suggest the following exact just systematic

518
00:42:22.720 --> 00:42:27.760
basic thing. This is what my next book is about. It's about a systematic approach to being good at love.

519
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:36.080
And the idea is once a week, I think here's the advanced version. But minimum, just write down,

520
00:42:36.080 --> 00:42:41.520
send an email, send a text, whatever it is, tell your partner three things that you love about them.

521
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:48.160
The advanced version is tell your partner three things you love about them. Tell them three times

522
00:42:48.160 --> 00:42:52.720
this week that they made you feel loved. Here's three things you did this week that made me feel

523
00:42:52.720 --> 00:42:57.120
loved. Like here's three. When you sent me that message and said that made me feel so soft,

524
00:42:57.120 --> 00:43:01.120
that made me feel very loved. Like whatever it is, I'm sure you could find off the top of your head

525
00:43:01.120 --> 00:43:05.040
three things that she did this week that made you feel loved. And it's only Monday.

526
00:43:05.040 --> 00:43:10.400
People at home are in relationships right now. They're hearing you say that. And some of them

527
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:15.200
are still not going to do it. Why do you think they're not going to do it? What is that mental

528
00:43:15.200 --> 00:43:21.440
conversation they're having where they go? I think they think it's pointless. I think they might be

529
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:25.440
at a point in their relationship where it feels like what would be the point we're so far gone,

530
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:33.120
it wouldn't help. I think more than anything, my real feeling on this, the secret that I don't

531
00:43:33.120 --> 00:43:40.400
think people want to say out loud, I think we're terrified. I think we're terrified. And I think

532
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:47.600
what we're terrified of is not the future of our relationship. I think what we're terrified of

533
00:43:47.600 --> 00:43:52.880
is that we feel like we're not worthy of love. I think it's most people's fundamental terror.

534
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:57.600
I think most people's fundamental fear is that if you knew me, you wouldn't love me.

535
00:43:58.560 --> 00:44:07.760
If you could see me, the real me, like the me that's in here, all the weakness, all the fear,

536
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:16.640
all the horrible selfish thoughts, all the perversity, all the darkest things that are inside of me

537
00:44:16.640 --> 00:44:22.720
and every single one of us, that if you could, if you saw that, you couldn't possibly love me.

538
00:44:23.680 --> 00:44:32.400
And the feeling that comes with that, which is so you love the character I'm playing,

539
00:44:33.200 --> 00:44:38.000
that's not showing you all those things. I'm just showing you the best parts of myself.

540
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:43.280
If you saw the real me, you wouldn't really love me. I think our greatest fear is that we're

541
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:49.680
not worthy of love. And I think that there's a part of us that's afraid to like poke at,

542
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:56.400
what do you love about me? What do I love about you? How what am I getting wrong?

543
00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:04.080
Again, like finishing that exercise, you know, here's some things, here's three things I love

544
00:45:04.080 --> 00:45:11.200
about you. Here's three things you did this week that made me feel loved. Here's three things I

545
00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:15.600
could have done better or tell me three things I could have done better or tell your partner

546
00:45:15.600 --> 00:45:18.800
three things they could have done better. And then if you want to have a fun one thrown in there,

547
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:21.920
because I think you should have done fun stuff. Here's three things you did this week that made

548
00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:27.920
me want to have sex with you. I guess some people would, I listen right now and they're thinking,

549
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:34.240
well, you know, I'm dating Barry or they think I'm dating Joanne and she is, she is not verbally

550
00:45:35.200 --> 00:45:39.840
intimate in this way. If I suggested this to her, write it down. Don't do it. You don't have to

551
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:43.520
do it verbally. I think verbally is too much pressure on people. But even written down, if I told

552
00:45:43.520 --> 00:45:46.640
Dave that we're going to start writing these notes to each other about three things, he's going

553
00:45:46.720 --> 00:45:52.320
out cringe and he's bullshit. Bullshit. Honestly, really? That's that's too hard.

554
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:56.320
It's too much of an ask. Like Dave, I don't care what Dave does for a living. Dave could be a

555
00:45:56.320 --> 00:46:03.200
ditch digger for a living who's not articulate in any way. Dave is moving in with you. Dave married

556
00:46:03.200 --> 00:46:08.720
you. Dave went out and put his money on the counter and bought a ring. Dave, Dave can't name three

557
00:46:08.720 --> 00:46:13.840
things he likes about you. Really, Dave, is that a big ask? Is that hard Dave? Like, come on.

558
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:19.360
I absolutely call Bullshit on that. Maybe he doesn't want to. Okay, that's a different conversation.

559
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:23.680
Why don't you want to? What's uncomfortable about that for you? It is uncomfortable for some

560
00:46:23.680 --> 00:46:27.040
people, isn't it? Yeah, it's very uncomfortable for some people. It's quite interesting that you

561
00:46:27.040 --> 00:46:32.400
could be in a loving relationship with someone but also be at some deeper level scared of intimacy.

562
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:37.040
And I'll be honest, because it's just me and you and nobody's listening. Sure, of course.

563
00:46:37.040 --> 00:46:42.160
I think it's some... You're in a client privilege. I think it's some level. I've always been

564
00:46:43.120 --> 00:46:48.240
scared of intimacy. It makes it sound more conscious than it is. But at some deeper level,

565
00:46:48.240 --> 00:46:52.560
I've always been, I don't know, a bit disconnected intimately when it comes to like

566
00:46:54.400 --> 00:47:02.480
being able to articulate these things. Keep it simple. That's why I want to keep that simple.

567
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:08.800
I didn't say, what is your love for me rooted in? And what is the nature of our connection?

568
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:13.120
And how does it fit into the broader context? Like, I had a very challenging relationship with

569
00:47:13.120 --> 00:47:17.440
my mother growing up and I feel like you fill some of the wounds that... Whoa, take guys.

570
00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:20.640
We don't need... Like, Sigmund Freud doesn't have to show up in the relationship.

571
00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:27.760
What are three... We could do it right now in this relationship. What are three things I like about you?

572
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:33.760
What are three experiences you and I have had with each other that made each other laugh?

573
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:40.080
We have a friendship. What a joy that is, by the way. What a joy it is to sit across from someone

574
00:47:40.080 --> 00:47:45.120
and say, you know what I like about you? Man, I want to hear that list. That's lovely.

575
00:47:45.120 --> 00:47:50.080
Do you think the whole idea of people being avoidant and sort of anxious?

576
00:47:50.080 --> 00:47:54.080
You know, this attachment stuff... Is that stuff tracked to what you've seen?

577
00:47:54.080 --> 00:48:00.880
It does, but I also think too, I don't understand why we treat our connections to other people

578
00:48:01.520 --> 00:48:08.480
differently than things we are like exercise, exercise, okay? Have not been to the gym in a while.

579
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:12.560
You go to the gym. You're going to be sore. You're not going to be a little lift a lot.

580
00:48:13.120 --> 00:48:16.800
You're going to have to start slow and for a couple days you're going to be sore.

581
00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:21.360
And if you go... I was very sore after that. I'm not going back to the gym.

582
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:26.160
Okay, then you're never going to get fit and you're never going to get past the sore stage

583
00:48:26.160 --> 00:48:28.560
because if you go all the way to a month and then I'll go back and do the same thing again,

584
00:48:28.560 --> 00:48:32.320
guess what? You're just going to... You have to move through the uncomfortable part.

585
00:48:33.040 --> 00:48:36.160
To get to the part where it starts to feel really good and you're not a sore.

586
00:48:36.160 --> 00:48:39.040
Yeah, you'll sometimes still be sore. You push it a little too hard and maybe work out with

587
00:48:39.040 --> 00:48:42.400
you room in that week. But you know what? Other weeks like you go, hey, I don't feel sore.

588
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:47.200
I just feel strong and healthy. So there's going to be moments where this might feel a little weird.

589
00:48:47.200 --> 00:48:50.560
It might feel a little awkward. It might feel a little sore. There might be weeks where that kind

590
00:48:50.560 --> 00:48:55.040
of a simple little practice feels a little... Like, oh, it feels a little uncomfortable.

591
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:59.360
Yeah, the list of things that you did this week that made me feel loved. I have to reach for it.

592
00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:06.400
Okay, great. Isn't that little uncomfortable conversation that might prevent slippage?

593
00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:14.560
Isn't that little conversation better than the long-term impact of having a distance start

594
00:49:14.560 --> 00:49:19.680
growing between the two of you that eventually becomes impossible to navigate because it becomes

595
00:49:19.680 --> 00:49:27.520
a chasm between the two of you. Do you think the attachment style theory has any truth to it

596
00:49:27.520 --> 00:49:31.600
from what you've seen? Do you tend to find people are, you know, there's some people that are

597
00:49:31.600 --> 00:49:34.400
avoidant of intimacy, there's some people that are anxious, there's some people in the middle?

598
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:41.520
Yeah, I mean, look, I think that we're all creatures of our upbringing and I think a lot of our...

599
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:49.600
I'm amazed as a 53-year-old man in therapy, how often a lot of my challenges are rooted

600
00:49:49.600 --> 00:49:54.080
in seven-year-old Jim. As a man that talks so much about love, I'm curious to know

601
00:49:54.080 --> 00:49:58.240
what it is that you still struggle with in terms of, you know, because I, I mean, I know from

602
00:49:58.240 --> 00:50:02.560
my experience that I can know every... I can know so much. I see it with experts all day every day.

603
00:50:02.560 --> 00:50:06.800
It's all like I don't know this stuff. Yeah. But then putting it into practice is a different task.

604
00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:11.840
Yeah, I mean, it's why you'll never hear me use myself and my relationships as an example because

605
00:50:11.840 --> 00:50:19.600
I think you can be, you know, an incredibly skilled person at the theory of something and then

606
00:50:19.600 --> 00:50:25.840
in its practical application, you have your own unique challenges. I think that using yourself as

607
00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:31.440
the example and your relationships as an example is dangerous because I learned it in my own

608
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:37.760
professional life when I had a very friendly divorce. And so my experience of divorce is the

609
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:42.880
unique function of the constitution of my ex-wife and of me and of our unique circumstances that

610
00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:47.840
brought us where we are. So if I use that as the basis for my analysis of things, I think it's a

611
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:57.200
very shallow sample size. I know for me my greatest challenge in every relationship I've ever had.

612
00:50:57.200 --> 00:51:03.760
But even in my, my professional relationships is acknowledging when I need help.

613
00:51:04.720 --> 00:51:11.280
I think because I was raised in an environment where a lot of my needs weren't met.

614
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:17.040
My father was a very serious alcoholic. My mother was trying to tend to do a very serious alcoholic.

615
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:24.240
When I needed something even from a very young age, I felt a lot of shame because it wasn't met

616
00:51:24.240 --> 00:51:29.280
with, you know, I'm hungry for breakfast. Like, of course, let me make you some breakfast.

617
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:33.280
It was met with what you can't make your own breakfast. What's wrong with you? And I said,

618
00:51:35.120 --> 00:51:41.120
it was this guy. Yeah, yeah, that was me. That was me, my Bruce Lee poster,

619
00:51:41.120 --> 00:51:44.960
and my chef Chuck Norris up there. Yeah, this is probably like

620
00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:53.360
nine, nine years old, Okinawan Goju Rio Karate. This is my room. Yeah, I was very, very lonely.

621
00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:02.320
I was really lonely. I was really sad. And I loved martial arts because there was this

622
00:52:04.160 --> 00:52:13.840
very clear kind of masculinity on display. Like this protective, strong super power that you could

623
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:19.360
build. It wasn't just gifted to you. Like, you didn't win the genetic lottery. Like, you could

624
00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:25.760
through discipline and practice. You could have this super power that would make you feel safe.

625
00:52:26.640 --> 00:52:33.200
And that was what I obsessed about having. There's still a lot of that,

626
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:40.320
that person, that young man still in me that is afraid to ask for help. I wanted to be someone who

627
00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:47.600
I could do, do it all for myself. And I wish I could say looking back that it was because that

628
00:52:47.600 --> 00:52:51.920
was my natural proclivity is to want to be very self-actualized. But it really was that I was just

629
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:58.720
absolutely sad and terrified that if I asked, I'd be shamed. If I said, like, could you be nice to me

630
00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:11.200
that the answer would be no. So, I learned how to do everything. Like, I cook amazingly well.

631
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:17.120
Like, I'm good at a lot of things. I'm good at most things. Almost anything I put my mind to,

632
00:53:17.120 --> 00:53:25.600
I'm good at. But it took me a lot of years to figure out that, although that has served me really well.

633
00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:32.560
And it's built my career and the security and safety that came with being so successful and having

634
00:53:32.560 --> 00:53:39.440
financial success. And, you know, now some level of notoriety. It took me a long time to figure

635
00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:46.080
out that that also has been the greatest obstacle in my life. And I'm learning at the age of 53,

636
00:53:47.120 --> 00:53:55.520
that this guy is, like, he's still there and talking to me all the time. And I've learned now,

637
00:53:56.160 --> 00:54:02.880
again, through my own therapy to say to him, like, oh, I hear you. Like, I hear you. I'm glad you're

638
00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:13.360
still there. Like, you don't have to be so scared anymore. I'm not, I'm grateful to him.

639
00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:21.360
I think that's the best thing to aspire to is to make peace with that. Like, I'm sure in you,

640
00:54:23.040 --> 00:54:32.000
there's some little boy, like hiding in some part of his room, feeling very lost and very lonely.

641
00:54:32.800 --> 00:54:38.320
And I don't think there's anything wrong or weak or not masculine or not strong

642
00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:46.080
about acknowledging that that's still a voice in your head. And acknowledging that that voice in

643
00:54:46.080 --> 00:54:52.800
your head, like, it brought you where you are. But it also held you back in some ways. And you're

644
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:57.680
never going to get rid of it. But maybe what you'll do is hear it for what it is, which is,

645
00:54:57.680 --> 00:55:03.120
is it's a voice that was once they are really important to save you. And it did a really good job

646
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:08.560
of that. But that it's okay. Like, it's okay. You don't have to beat that out of you.

647
00:55:08.560 --> 00:55:12.720
You don't have to listen to it either. You don't have to let it drive the car. I was thinking as you

648
00:55:12.720 --> 00:55:19.360
were speaking about how those of us that, don't you think this fit it back? Oh, whichever. It's great.

649
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:25.840
It's fun to see that guy. It's funny. You pulled that out. I have to tell you, it's a lovely,

650
00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:33.200
it's a lovely thing. I think there's something to learn from those versions of ourselves.

651
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:42.080
Like, if you hang out with kids, you just see, like, they don't have all that hate in their heart.

652
00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:48.080
They hate naps. It's the end of the list. Like, everything else, like, they just want to,

653
00:55:48.080 --> 00:55:53.680
like, love each other and hug each other and play. And when they, like, think they hurt someone,

654
00:55:53.680 --> 00:55:58.960
they stop and they're very scared because they didn't mean to. And then we turn into these creatures

655
00:55:59.680 --> 00:56:04.160
that are just attacking each other all the time, you know? And I think at the end of the day,

656
00:56:04.160 --> 00:56:11.440
like, all we want is that, like, all we want is to just be like that warm, open version of ourselves

657
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:16.640
before the world beat the shit out of us. And maybe that's what love's supposed to be. Like, maybe

658
00:56:16.640 --> 00:56:22.240
what love is is an opportunity for us to, like, reconnect to that part of ourselves that was just

659
00:56:22.240 --> 00:56:28.560
so simple. Like, I just want you to love me. I want to be loved by you. I want you to feel

660
00:56:28.560 --> 00:56:33.440
worthy of my love. I want to feel worthy of yours. Like, why does it have to be so hard?

661
00:56:35.200 --> 00:56:40.000
So many of us are pursuing passive forms of income and to build side businesses in order

662
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:45.280
to help us cover our bills. And that opportunity is here with our sponsor, Stan, a business that I

663
00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:51.440
co-own. It is the platform that can help you take full advantage of your own financial situation.

664
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:55.520
Stan enables you to work for yourself. It makes selling digital products, courses,

665
00:56:55.520 --> 00:57:01.280
memberships, and more simple products, more scalable and easier to do. You can turn your ideas into

666
00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:06.720
income and get the support to grow whatever you're building. And we've just launched Dare to Dream.

667
00:57:06.720 --> 00:57:11.680
It's for those who are ready to make the share from thinking to building, from planning to actually

668
00:57:11.680 --> 00:57:15.680
doing the thing. It's about seeing that dream in your head and knowing exactly what it takes to

669
00:57:15.680 --> 00:57:21.680
bring it to life. It's not too late to join the challenge. Enter to win $100,000, visit Dare to

670
00:57:21.680 --> 00:57:27.920
Dream. Stan. Store. There's a phase a lot of companies here where they're no longer doing the

671
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:32.320
most important thing, which is selling and they get really bogged down with admin. And it's often

672
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:37.120
something that creeps up slowly and you don't really notice until it's happened. Slowly, momentum

673
00:57:37.120 --> 00:57:41.280
starts to leak out. This happened to us and our sponsor, Pike Drive, was a fix I came across

674
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:45.680
10 years ago. And ever since, my teams across my different companies have continued to use it.

675
00:57:45.680 --> 00:57:50.320
Pike Drive is a simple but powerful sales CRM that gives you the visibility on any deals in

676
00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:54.880
your pipeline. It also automates a lot of the tedious repetitive and time-consuming parts of

677
00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:58.960
the sales process, which in turn saves you so many hours every single month, which means you can

678
00:57:58.960 --> 00:58:03.280
get back to selling. Making that early decision to switch to Pike Drive was a real game changer,

679
00:58:03.280 --> 00:58:07.840
and it's kept the right things front of mind. My favourite feature is Pike Drive's ability to

680
00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:13.360
sync your CRM with multiple email inboxes so your entire team can work together from one platform.

681
00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:18.560
And we aren't the only ones benefiting. Over 100,000 companies use Pike Drive to grow their business.

682
00:58:18.560 --> 00:58:25.040
So if something I've said resonates, head over to pipedrive.com slash CEO, where you can get a 30-day

683
00:58:25.040 --> 00:58:32.960
free trial, no credit card or payment required. I was thinking about how there's a lot of people that

684
00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:36.960
at a very early age had to be very independent for whatever reason. Maybe a parent wasn't around,

685
00:58:37.680 --> 00:58:42.400
in your case, you know, I've heard, you know, doing this book, you get a bit of time recognition,

686
00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:47.680
where you sometimes say, oh, okay. So if one of the parents was an alcoholic or a

687
00:58:47.680 --> 00:58:53.120
adult children of alcoholics, where I remember reading the book, Recovery, Adult Children of Alcoholics,

688
00:58:53.120 --> 00:58:57.760
I stumbled on it when I was in college in a bookstore, and I remember reading it and going,

689
00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:03.280
they've been reading my diary. Like, what the hell? Because there was this profile of like one of

690
00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:09.600
the types, one of the archetypes of adult children of alcoholics is that you, yeah, control,

691
00:59:09.600 --> 00:59:15.600
control, control, control. Like wanting to control everything, because life feels so chaotic

692
00:59:15.600 --> 00:59:21.680
when you live with an alcohol. When the person who is supposed to be your primary caregiver,

693
00:59:21.680 --> 00:59:26.880
and the primary mechanism for you to feel safe feels unpredictable and chaotic.

694
00:59:27.520 --> 00:59:33.760
And that is, it creates a new, this constant sense of a heightened, you know, heightened sense of

695
00:59:33.760 --> 00:59:39.840
I need to hold on as tight as I can. And also that drove you to be incredibly independent. Yeah.

696
00:59:41.440 --> 00:59:47.200
Independence and connection seem to be on like two ends of the spectrum. And I say this in part

697
00:59:47.200 --> 00:59:52.320
because I look at, I look at all my friends that are very, very, very independent, and I would say

698
00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:56.480
that they typically struggle the most to form relationships because they've kind of built their

699
00:59:56.480 --> 01:00:01.600
own castle with a moat. Yeah. And generally if we zoom out on this point of independence and

700
01:00:01.600 --> 01:00:07.360
dependency, I would say that the narrative in society over the last 10, 20 years or whatever

701
01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:13.440
has been pointed at, glorifying independence and not dependency. Dependency is like not cool.

702
01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:18.320
It's like beer and boss, starring Mr. Stan and you're in two feet. Yeah. So I used to view,

703
01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:27.280
I would say the defining characteristics of my 30s and 40s was the belief that there were two

704
01:00:28.560 --> 01:00:36.800
versions of Jim sexton. One was the one that was the most forward facing at that time,

705
01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:41.200
which was lead pipe cruelty and mercenary sensibility. Like I'm, I'm going to do this job. I'm

706
01:00:41.200 --> 01:00:46.320
going to do it really well. I'm going to get better and better at it. I'm going to just take my

707
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:51.760
skill set and weaponize it. And that's who I'm going to be. And then there was this other part of

708
01:00:51.760 --> 01:00:57.440
me that was always there. I kind of stuffed it in the closet for a while that like gets misty

709
01:00:57.440 --> 01:01:03.760
eyeed when I talk about love and cries when I think about dogs and you know, watches love on

710
01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:07.760
the spectrum and can't make it through an episode without weeping three or four times. Like this

711
01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:15.440
very soft, gentle, loving, compassionate, empathetic, sensitive part of me. And I felt like they

712
01:01:15.440 --> 01:01:23.120
were two warring forces. There were two versions of me. And the question was how can I beat that

713
01:01:23.120 --> 01:01:32.240
soft little, you know, who's out of me and be the final form, which is like the me that's a machine

714
01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:38.000
that can just do it. Like they can just do what needs to be done and do it in a way that nobody

715
01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:45.760
else can do. And I'm very blessed that I am in my line of work, what Yo-Yo Ma is in cello. Like in a

716
01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:53.120
courtroom, I have a God-given talent. And I remember thinking, okay, that's the final form of me.

717
01:01:53.120 --> 01:02:00.160
Is a master in the courtroom. And everything else is just what do I need to do to get there? I

718
01:02:00.160 --> 01:02:06.720
remember my ex-wife saying to me, you know, you will never love any woman as much as you love the

719
01:02:07.680 --> 01:02:12.160
law. Like every woman who you ever meet for the rest of your life will be playing second

720
01:02:12.160 --> 01:02:17.840
fiddle to how much you love being in a courtroom. You're great in a courtroom and you have no idea

721
01:02:17.840 --> 01:02:26.080
what to do in your living room. Like in your living room, you're just totally paralyzed. Whereas in a

722
01:02:26.080 --> 01:02:32.320
courtroom, you know, every, it has why. It has defined rules. It has a cadence. I know what the

723
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:39.600
goal is. Like I know it's controlled chaos. I'm great at it. So there was a part of me that went,

724
01:02:39.600 --> 01:02:45.600
okay, there's this soft, warm, wonderful, lovely, empathetic side of me. And then there's this

725
01:02:45.600 --> 01:02:50.400
real successful. And that's the one that got me everywhere. That's the one that got me everything

726
01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:58.400
I have. So I have to figure out how to get rid of this one and keep this one. And for my entire

727
01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:03.600
30s and most of my 40s, that was my primary thing was trying to figure out how to get rid of that

728
01:03:03.600 --> 01:03:10.480
part of me. And no matter how loudly I blared nine inch nails on my headphones and tried to

729
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:18.160
become a machine, I couldn't get rid of that part of me. And then I came to realize I think in

730
01:03:18.160 --> 01:03:25.200
part because of this work, I think because of like somehow I stumbled into being in a position where

731
01:03:25.360 --> 01:03:31.920
I end up talking about feelings a whole lot. And it's somehow I got brought in to Africa. Here's

732
01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:36.080
this interesting divorce lawyer who's going to talk about divorce stuff and some high ended up

733
01:03:36.080 --> 01:03:41.360
talking a lot about love and softness and warmth and compassion. I don't think it's somehow.

734
01:03:42.080 --> 01:03:49.120
Yeah. No, exactly. And what I came to learn from that, from giving that voice, is that

735
01:03:49.120 --> 01:03:55.680
there actually isn't two warring forces. It's two very authentic aspects of self that have to

736
01:03:55.680 --> 01:04:01.120
exist inside of me. And each one of them creates the other in some ways. Like I don't think I'd be

737
01:04:01.120 --> 01:04:07.840
anywhere near as good of a lawyer and courtroom advocate if I didn't have a tremendous sensitivity

738
01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:13.600
and empathy and couldn't put myself in the heads of the various people in the room. So I think that

739
01:04:13.600 --> 01:04:20.080
when we start to see what seems like opposite traits in us, instead as authentic representations

740
01:04:20.080 --> 01:04:26.560
of aspects of who we are, that we have to learn how to do, let them dance, let them move together

741
01:04:26.560 --> 01:04:32.880
in some way. And there's times where this guy should take the lead. And there's times where that

742
01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:41.280
very focused self that is very mission driven, that person should lead. And for men in particular,

743
01:04:41.280 --> 01:04:46.880
like we've been taught a rigidity. Like the gender role for men has a tremendous rigidity.

744
01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:50.720
I mean, I grew up in a time where you either got to be Clint Eastwood or Richard Simmons,

745
01:04:50.720 --> 01:04:58.240
those were your true choices. You either had to be, you know, like I see 100% or you had to be,

746
01:04:58.240 --> 01:05:02.480
you know, you could be warm and fuzzy, but then you were just not really masculine. And I just

747
01:05:02.480 --> 01:05:06.960
don't think that's the case. Like you look at, like I've spent 20 years on the Brazilian

748
01:05:06.960 --> 01:05:12.160
Jiu Jitsu mat. I have to tell you, like there's some dudes could snap your neck with like any,

749
01:05:12.160 --> 01:05:17.520
with their thumb. And they're some of the warmest, most lovely people because these are all

750
01:05:17.520 --> 01:05:24.400
authentic aspects of self. And to know that like the soft, warm version of me feeding it,

751
01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:31.360
letting it spend some time, letting it be in conversation, it makes me better at the other part.

752
01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:35.840
It makes me more authentic. It makes me better at that part. And by the way,

753
01:05:36.640 --> 01:05:42.560
letting that part out, it hasn't done anything to diminish this part. So when you start to see it

754
01:05:42.560 --> 01:05:49.040
that way, I really think that there's a tremendous broader menu of possibilities out there.

755
01:05:50.480 --> 01:05:54.480
I've got several friends in my life that have really struggled with relationships and love.

756
01:05:55.280 --> 01:06:00.320
And for those people that have really, really struggled in love and they look around at

757
01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:05.520
everybody else and everybody else seems to have worked it out or at least be working through

758
01:06:05.520 --> 01:06:08.880
a situation. But they look at themselves and go, it just doesn't work for me. What's going on?

759
01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:15.120
Why am I the only one in my friendship group that hasn't found love or isn't in a relationship?

760
01:06:15.120 --> 01:06:19.120
And they kind of beat themselves up about it. I think that's a great starting point.

761
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:26.000
Why is this happening to me? And start looking at when did it start happening?

762
01:06:26.000 --> 01:06:30.640
And what's the consistent threat through all of it? And are there people that I could ask that

763
01:06:30.640 --> 01:06:34.960
question of who know me and love me and would be willing to tell me honestly? And if there aren't,

764
01:06:34.960 --> 01:06:39.520
great, what are some resources out there in terms of the wisdom of other people that might share

765
01:06:39.520 --> 01:06:45.200
that experience? I think there's so many entry points to that conversation with yourself. I think

766
01:06:45.200 --> 01:06:53.120
the start is to identify that, yeah, I'm drowning. Like, what the solution is not is to pretend

767
01:06:53.120 --> 01:07:00.400
everything's fine. And that's the ecosystem we've created. We're living our gag reel and

768
01:07:00.400 --> 01:07:06.480
watching everyone's greatest hits. And we're encouraged all day long to tell everyone how great

769
01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:11.520
we're doing and how we're crushing it and how great we feel and how focused we are because

770
01:07:11.520 --> 01:07:16.240
why? Because we're terrified that if we said, I don't know, I feel like I'm drowning. I feel like

771
01:07:16.240 --> 01:07:20.000
I'm drowning sometimes. I have moments where I feel so put together and then I have moments where

772
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:25.600
I think I'm drowning. And, and by the way, when people have that kind of honesty,

773
01:07:26.480 --> 01:07:31.440
there's something so beautiful about it. Like, I have to tell you, like, one of the things that

774
01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:37.280
people say about me, when I go, I don't understand why anything I'm saying resonates with anybody,

775
01:07:37.280 --> 01:07:43.280
people like, dude, you're so real. It's so real. It's so blunt and honest and like real. This is,

776
01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:49.520
it's in every one of us is that same realness, that same basic just, all it is is just saying out

777
01:07:49.520 --> 01:07:53.840
loud. Like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't have it all figured out. And that's

778
01:07:53.840 --> 01:07:59.760
okay. Cause I have some things really figured out. So maybe if I've got these things really figured

779
01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:03.920
out and you've got these other things really figured out and we're just stopped bullshitting

780
01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:09.440
each other for five minutes and instead go, you know, I'm doing great on this, but like this,

781
01:08:09.440 --> 01:08:15.200
I feel like I'm a train wreck on. Like every high achieving friend I have, every celebrity

782
01:08:15.200 --> 01:08:20.480
friend I have, every part, I have friends who people look at them and go, oh, dude, he is

783
01:08:20.480 --> 01:08:25.360
murdering it. Like, you're my friend. People look at you, they go, he's murdering it. There are

784
01:08:25.360 --> 01:08:30.400
aspects of your life that you're like, I got to work on that. There's tons of aspects of my life

785
01:08:30.400 --> 01:08:34.720
where I go, I got to work on that. Like, I figured all these other things out, but I haven't figured

786
01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:42.480
that out yet. And you know what? It's so lovely to have that conversation. Like, why, why can't we

787
01:08:42.480 --> 01:08:46.720
just make some space for that? All of us a little bit more. I don't think it's that hard.

788
01:08:48.800 --> 01:08:53.600
It's at least as important as our workout routine. It's at least as important as remembering someone's

789
01:08:53.600 --> 01:09:01.600
birthday. Yeah, I wonder why that. I wonder why it is that we miss so little space for us to work on

790
01:09:01.600 --> 01:09:08.160
our connection challenges these days. It hasn't been prioritized. We've become what we behold. We

791
01:09:08.160 --> 01:09:13.200
prioritize what we've been told to prioritize. We've been told to prioritize conspicuous

792
01:09:13.200 --> 01:09:19.200
consumption. We've been taught that the measure of a person is how much financial success they have.

793
01:09:19.200 --> 01:09:27.120
That's why I genuinely believe that if we continue to barrel along using the metric of success

794
01:09:27.920 --> 01:09:34.080
being financial above all else, really, consumption, what we own, what we wear, what we have,

795
01:09:34.080 --> 01:09:42.400
or how we look, as the priority. We're barreling towards nothing. Whereas if we were to change that

796
01:09:42.400 --> 01:09:50.400
and say, hey, like, joy, peace, finding some peace within ourselves, finding some balance that feels

797
01:09:51.200 --> 01:09:56.320
right to us individually. I think that's a really good simple word, which people don't think about

798
01:09:56.320 --> 01:10:00.960
enough when they're thinking about the KPIs of success in their life, which is how do I feel?

799
01:10:00.960 --> 01:10:06.720
I think we've all grown up in different contexts, learning to tune out of how I feel and in

800
01:10:06.720 --> 01:10:13.600
its place, but how does the world feel about me as like the primary metric? It's like I was thinking

801
01:10:13.600 --> 01:10:18.240
the other day that actually, we can do all these podcasts and books and whatever else, but we were

802
01:10:18.240 --> 01:10:24.880
all born with this internal compass that tells you every day how you feel, but none of us tune into

803
01:10:24.880 --> 01:10:29.520
it. Actually, the metric becomes like, how many followers do you have? How rich are you? How

804
01:10:29.600 --> 01:10:36.560
it's beat now to us by the world. Like, I will tell you, you always get most emotional stuff out

805
01:10:36.560 --> 01:10:43.360
of me, Steve. I will tell you my most shameful moment as a parent. So I have two sons. They're 26 and

806
01:10:43.360 --> 01:10:50.480
28. 28-year-olds just got married in September. He's a lawyer. He's awesome. He must have been

807
01:10:51.200 --> 01:11:01.440
five or six. Something happened and he started crying. Someone heard his feelings or something

808
01:11:01.440 --> 01:11:09.360
happened, but it wasn't that big of a deal. To me, at the moment, I mean, I was in my 20s. He

809
01:11:09.360 --> 01:11:15.600
was 24 when I was 24 when he was born. So yeah, I was in my 20s. And he was crying. He was crying.

810
01:11:15.600 --> 01:11:21.360
And I wanted him to stop crying because it made me sad to see him cry. I love him so much like

811
01:11:21.360 --> 01:11:28.400
that I was like, it may be so uncomfortable to see him crying. And I remember, I grabbed him,

812
01:11:28.400 --> 01:11:32.960
not roughly. I grabbed him. And I just looked at him and I was like, control yourself. I'm like,

813
01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:41.680
control yourself. I'm like, calm down and control yourself. And I remember like he managed to do it.

814
01:11:42.080 --> 01:11:50.480
It's 20 something years later. And I'm ashamed of that moment.

815
01:11:53.520 --> 01:11:59.280
Because I understand what I was trying to say to him. I was trying to say to him,

816
01:11:59.280 --> 01:12:06.480
I don't want you to be in pain. I'm uncomfortable with your pain. I also wanted to say something to

817
01:12:06.480 --> 01:12:11.120
this guy, probably, which is like, dude, like the world's not going to be nice to you if it

818
01:12:11.120 --> 01:12:15.360
knows that you have all these feelings, like you got to find a way to hide it. There's so much going

819
01:12:15.360 --> 01:12:22.320
on in that moment. But like, I look back on that moment and I just think like, no, like that was

820
01:12:22.320 --> 01:12:28.240
the wrong thing to do. Like it was the wrong thing to do. Like, I don't think we should be telling

821
01:12:28.880 --> 01:12:34.400
people, not just boys, like boys, particularly maybe. But I don't think we should be telling people

822
01:12:34.400 --> 01:12:41.920
like control yourself, like stop feeling so much. Like I think I think I think there's a difference

823
01:12:41.920 --> 01:12:49.200
between trying to like get people to control their feelings and not letting like everything be

824
01:12:49.200 --> 01:12:54.720
governed by the transient feelings that you have from moment to moment. And I think it's a harder

825
01:12:54.720 --> 01:13:01.440
more subtle message. But like I think if we lead with the feelings, if we lean into the feelings,

826
01:13:01.440 --> 01:13:05.840
first we identify the feelings first. If we figure out what it is, we want to feel, we want the

827
01:13:05.840 --> 01:13:11.280
other person to feel, to bring it back to marriage, to bring it back to connection. What were the

828
01:13:11.280 --> 01:13:17.120
questions I was asking earlier? That exercise, when did I make you feel loved this week?

829
01:13:17.920 --> 01:13:22.640
Here's some things you did that made me feel loved this week. Here's some things that made me feel

830
01:13:22.640 --> 01:13:28.320
desire towards you this week. Here's some things you did this week that made me feel less than loved

831
01:13:28.320 --> 01:13:34.080
by you. Where they made me feel less connected to you. Like what maybe we just need to help each

832
01:13:34.080 --> 01:13:41.840
other learn how to identify our feelings and feel our feelings. Like maybe we need more Mr. Rodgers

833
01:13:41.840 --> 01:13:50.960
and less, you know, intense self-help. Like maybe we just need more help not trying to control our

834
01:13:50.960 --> 01:13:56.000
feelings, but just figure out what they are and feel them. I think a lot of us are distracting

835
01:13:56.080 --> 01:14:00.320
ourselves as a way to avoid feeling anything. Because even I was thinking of a practical way if you

836
01:14:00.320 --> 01:14:05.040
get back in touch with actually how you're feeling and every solution I came up with was like

837
01:14:05.040 --> 01:14:09.840
interrupted by... Well the best definition of addiction I've ever heard was from a therapist,

838
01:14:09.840 --> 01:14:16.000
Dave Klugman, who said to me, addiction is anything you do to get away from feeling what you

839
01:14:16.000 --> 01:14:21.280
would have felt if you'd done nothing at all. And I've always said to people, work is my favorite

840
01:14:21.280 --> 01:14:27.280
narcotic. Like if you look at the most productive times in my life, they were almost always when

841
01:14:27.280 --> 01:14:31.440
something awful was happening in my personal life. Either I was getting divorced, my mother was

842
01:14:31.440 --> 01:14:38.560
dying, some painful thing was happening. So I took tremendous comfort in feeling

843
01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:46.640
in control and competent, which is how I feel at work. So the more I'm working is usually a gauge

844
01:14:46.720 --> 01:14:51.920
of where there are aspects of my life that I don't want to feel certain things. And again,

845
01:14:51.920 --> 01:14:56.800
that's why I think that the best question to ask at the start of therapy, the only question,

846
01:14:56.800 --> 01:15:03.440
really is what is it I'm afraid to feel? I think because we're closing off on this section where

847
01:15:03.440 --> 01:15:08.000
we were talking about people who have struggled in love, it is probably worth just closing this

848
01:15:08.080 --> 01:15:20.640
section by giving them a why as to the reason why they should take love seriously and stop

849
01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:25.600
distracting themselves and stop avoiding it and stop avoiding going to therapy, brushing it

850
01:15:25.600 --> 01:15:32.480
under the carpet. What is the why there? Why should they take love seriously? Because they could

851
01:15:32.480 --> 01:15:38.160
continue to bomb on for the next 10, 20 years and become really professionally accomplished.

852
01:15:39.600 --> 01:15:46.240
And get rich, nice house, nice holidays. Yeah, those are all great things. Those are all worthy

853
01:15:46.240 --> 01:15:54.480
pursuits. I think when you look back on your life, whatever stage of your life you're in,

854
01:15:54.480 --> 01:16:03.760
most people will recall a moment where they felt loved or where they felt tremendous love

855
01:16:04.480 --> 01:16:11.920
as the highest points of their life. I think even celebrity, and I represent a lot of celebrities,

856
01:16:11.920 --> 01:16:19.520
and now like you, I've had a little taste of it. That's really just the praise of strangers.

857
01:16:20.160 --> 01:16:25.760
It's like the love of strangers, which is lovely. It's lovely. It's like neutral sweet. It's sweet.

858
01:16:26.480 --> 01:16:32.320
It's not sugar, but it's sweet. It feels good to have strangers adore you. It's lovely.

859
01:16:33.680 --> 01:16:41.440
But is it the same as having someone who genuinely knows you and has a history of with you and

860
01:16:41.440 --> 01:16:48.240
really loves you? I think all of us know if we're honest that when we look back on our life at the

861
01:16:48.240 --> 01:16:56.000
moments where we felt the most glad that we're here, it was usually something that we felt that

862
01:16:56.000 --> 01:17:01.600
made us feel loved or that we got to feel loved towards someone else or ideally a combination of

863
01:17:01.600 --> 01:17:09.520
the two. So I think romantic love is a great opportunity. And you don't have to be someone who's

864
01:17:09.520 --> 01:17:13.600
religious and therefore believes that marriage is a sacrament that you're called to for the purpose

865
01:17:13.600 --> 01:17:20.240
of creating children. You don't have to be someone who believes that, you know, marriage is good

866
01:17:20.240 --> 01:17:24.800
for society, and therefore that's why we have to do it is if you love America or you love the UK,

867
01:17:24.800 --> 01:17:30.080
you have to do this for the country, it really can just be to look inside your own experience as

868
01:17:30.080 --> 01:17:35.360
a human being and look inside your own feelings and say, okay, when have I felt truly loved,

869
01:17:35.360 --> 01:17:40.240
when have I felt love and were those the highest moments in my life, were those the best moments in

870
01:17:40.240 --> 01:17:45.360
my life. A lot of those other things that you just described, like holiday, it's usually not by

871
01:17:45.360 --> 01:17:50.400
yourself, it's usually with other people, it's usually with someone, even if it's transient love,

872
01:17:50.400 --> 01:17:56.960
it's some kind of connection to another person. So the bigger question is, is the unique form of love

873
01:17:58.000 --> 01:18:06.560
that comes with a pair bond, right? You find one person and you make that person your person.

874
01:18:07.120 --> 01:18:16.640
Like, is that the permutation that works for you? And I think there are a lot of people who try

875
01:18:16.640 --> 01:18:22.800
at that and fail. The majority of people try at that and fail. Is the solution to that to give up

876
01:18:22.800 --> 01:18:28.160
on it? I don't think so. I think the solution to it is to figure out when it works, because when it

877
01:18:28.160 --> 01:18:34.240
works, it's so good, right? I talked to anybody who's really had a great successful long-term relationship.

878
01:18:34.880 --> 01:18:40.000
Again, even if it eventually ends, even if happily ever after means happily ever after

879
01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:45.600
separately, if you had 10, 20 years of your life, where you felt deep, wonderful, intimate connection

880
01:18:45.600 --> 01:18:51.040
with another person and great sexual satisfaction, all kinds of other things, like, you know, at best,

881
01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:58.960
right? Like you're getting married, okay? And if you have a monogamous marriage, I would like to think

882
01:18:59.120 --> 01:19:09.520
that you will sleep with as many women as you want to, which will be one. And she will sleep with as

883
01:19:09.520 --> 01:19:17.600
many men as she wants to, which will be one. Because when I'm full, I'm not hungry. I don't need more

884
01:19:17.600 --> 01:19:25.280
to eat. Like, when I'm satisfied, I don't need more. Like, if the goal of a monogamous marriage,

885
01:19:25.280 --> 01:19:31.280
if the goal of a traditional marriage is that we're going to say to each other, hey, you and I,

886
01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:35.520
we're going to share space, we're going to share a journey together, we're going to play a very

887
01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:40.640
important role in each other's lives. We're going to add to that, there's this romantic and sexual

888
01:19:40.640 --> 01:19:45.680
component, which makes it something other than a friendship. And most marriages, you're saying,

889
01:19:45.680 --> 01:19:53.520
we're going to only share that aspect of self with each other. Okay, so if that's what you want,

890
01:19:54.320 --> 01:20:01.680
and what comes from that is, you know, something you want to feel, and that is I want to feel

891
01:20:01.680 --> 01:20:06.160
deeply connected. I want to feel the connection that gets deeper and deeper. I want to feel safe

892
01:20:06.160 --> 01:20:12.560
in this relationship, emotionally, physically. I want to feel safe in it. Like, I just think that

893
01:20:12.560 --> 01:20:19.120
there's tremendous value in saying that out loud to each other from the beginning and saying to

894
01:20:19.600 --> 01:20:25.680
each other, what can we do to if we both have decided this is something we're going to do, we don't

895
01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:32.640
have to do it, but we're going to do it. How can we keep this thing lovely and connected?

896
01:20:32.640 --> 01:20:38.400
And I think the answer really is not that complicated. Do you think prenups help marriages

897
01:20:38.400 --> 01:20:43.200
lost? Yes. You're saying that as a divorce lady gets paid to write them? No, because it's the least

898
01:20:43.200 --> 01:20:48.880
profitable thing we do. Oh, okay. Yeah, prenups are so easy like they're, you know, they're really like

899
01:20:49.120 --> 01:20:52.720
to the point now where they're essentially automated. Like, I see a future where AI is just

900
01:20:52.720 --> 01:20:56.480
going to do them. Like, it's really not that tricky. Do you think I should get a prenup? Yes, of

901
01:20:56.480 --> 01:21:00.400
course. Why don't you think I should get a prenup? You have a prenup. It'll either be written by

902
01:21:00.400 --> 01:21:04.720
the state legislature or it'll be written by you and she. Who do you trust more? You've been to

903
01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:09.120
the DMV. Have you walked into the DMV and went, oh, these people are great. They should be in charge

904
01:21:09.120 --> 01:21:12.800
of everything. I mean, you know what? They should make the rules for our marriage. And by the way,

905
01:21:13.360 --> 01:21:18.480
even though this legislature changes constantly, like whoever you are, whatever your political

906
01:21:18.480 --> 01:21:24.240
views are in the last 20 years at some point, you've gone, I cannot believe who's in charge here.

907
01:21:24.240 --> 01:21:28.080
I cannot believe who's in charge of the government, whatever side of the aisle you're on.

908
01:21:28.080 --> 01:21:32.960
So what you're saying, because your marriage has a prenup, you get married, you've got a prenup.

909
01:21:33.600 --> 01:21:39.280
You're saying I trust the legislature of the state in which we will be residing in the future

910
01:21:39.280 --> 01:21:45.200
in the event we break up more than I trust my partner who I've chosen out of eight billion

911
01:21:45.200 --> 01:21:52.240
options. I imagine a lot of people listening would be scared to mention a prenup to their partner.

912
01:21:52.240 --> 01:21:56.000
And those people in particular, by the way, it's just like I said about, you know, I don't have

913
01:21:56.000 --> 01:22:01.760
15 minutes a day to meditate great that you need an hour. If you'd be scared to mention a prenup

914
01:22:01.760 --> 01:22:07.280
to your partner, then you should definitely mention a prenup to your partner. Because what that

915
01:22:07.280 --> 01:22:12.880
means is I'm afraid to have a hard conversation with my partner. And if you're going to get married,

916
01:22:12.880 --> 01:22:18.400
you should get accustomed to having hard conversations. Life is going to come at you very fast.

917
01:22:18.400 --> 01:22:22.240
And there's going to be lots of things that happen that require hard conversations.

918
01:22:22.240 --> 01:22:25.280
What if my partner says no? It says no to the prenup. Yeah.

919
01:22:26.480 --> 01:22:30.960
Have a conversation about why? And they say, well, you don't trust me. You think I'm going to take

920
01:22:30.960 --> 01:22:36.320
your stuff. This is not very sexy. This is, well, arguably you don't trust me equally, right?

921
01:22:36.320 --> 01:22:41.040
Because that the trust works both ways. So what you what you're saying when you say you don't

922
01:22:41.040 --> 01:22:46.480
trust me is you're saying that you don't trust that this marriage is going to last.

923
01:22:47.360 --> 01:22:52.800
Or you don't trust, you're saying you don't trust that in the event this marriage ends,

924
01:22:52.800 --> 01:22:59.120
we won't be fair to each other, right? So why would you marry someone who you don't believe

925
01:22:59.120 --> 01:23:04.960
that they're going to be fair to you? What you're not protecting yourselves against each other,

926
01:23:04.960 --> 01:23:10.960
you're protecting yourselves against the government making the rule set in the event that your

927
01:23:10.960 --> 01:23:15.760
marriage ends in something other than death. You know, I've got a friend. There's two people

928
01:23:15.760 --> 01:23:21.760
that convinced me that I should get a prenup. One of them was you. Thanks. And then the other was

929
01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:27.200
watching a friend go through divorce. And he said to me, actually, when we went for dinner one time,

930
01:23:27.200 --> 01:23:34.160
that it was true. It was it was looking at his face and seeing the like depression in his face

931
01:23:34.240 --> 01:23:39.360
from the process, because not only had it ruined his relationship with his ex-wife,

932
01:23:39.360 --> 01:23:42.880
because they've gone through this onslaught for seven years where two sets of lawyers were fighting

933
01:23:42.880 --> 01:23:47.920
either side. He said that he'd paid for the lawyer, her lawyers, which he has to do, which I was

934
01:23:47.920 --> 01:23:53.680
I. Yeah, there's a presumption that the higher earning individual should be responsible for the legal

935
01:23:53.680 --> 01:24:01.120
reasonable legal fees of the the less earning spouse. He said her lawyer has now got like a

936
01:24:01.120 --> 01:24:05.280
skyscraper, whereas when this divorce started, he was in a small little office. Now he's got like

937
01:24:05.280 --> 01:24:10.320
some massive building because he's had to spend tens of millions on her lawyers. And yeah, I've

938
01:24:10.320 --> 01:24:19.360
had clients who paid millions. The other thing he said was that he has her lawyer is trying to inflate

939
01:24:19.360 --> 01:24:27.360
his assets to tell the judge that his business is worth billions of dollars when I know I know

940
01:24:27.440 --> 01:24:31.920
that this divorce is taking so long. They have dueling experts. So instead of of the two lawyers

941
01:24:31.920 --> 01:24:38.160
hiring neutral, a neutral expert to value his business interests, what they've elected to do

942
01:24:38.160 --> 01:24:44.880
instead is to hire individual partisan experts. And that happens sometimes. And when you hire an

943
01:24:44.880 --> 01:24:50.000
individual partisan expert, of course, you're going to, you know, if you represent the party who wants

944
01:24:50.000 --> 01:24:55.040
half of this thing, you're going to find someone you can the cigarette companies had doctors who

945
01:24:55.040 --> 01:25:00.480
were willing to testify that cigarettes are good for you. Like you can find an expert to say almost

946
01:25:00.480 --> 01:25:05.920
anything if you pay them enough. So you find credible experts that will overly value the business.

947
01:25:05.920 --> 01:25:11.120
And then because value is speculative. And then the other side has an incentive to hire experts

948
01:25:11.120 --> 01:25:15.600
who will deliberately diminish the value of the business. And then you have two opportunities. One

949
01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:20.880
is you can play with the data set and you can impeach the data set. And then the other is you can

950
01:25:20.880 --> 01:25:25.040
impeach the conclusion they came from the data set. So you can say you used the wrong data and

951
01:25:25.040 --> 01:25:28.080
that's how you got to the wrong conclusion. Or you can say use the right data, but you came to

952
01:25:28.080 --> 01:25:32.160
the wrong conclusion or some combination of both. Like this is the shit I get to do all day in a

953
01:25:32.160 --> 01:25:38.320
courtroom is to like try to engineer those optics or prevent those optics from being engineered in

954
01:25:38.320 --> 01:25:45.600
that direction. And say that I was going through divorce now with my partner. My wife would,

955
01:25:46.240 --> 01:25:50.880
well, her lawyer would theoretically be trying to say that this podcast is worth a billion dollars

956
01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:55.760
because then theoretically she's entitled to a larger percentage. Yeah. She might be entitled

957
01:25:55.760 --> 01:25:59.840
to 500 million. Yeah. And if the judge believes that this podcast is worth a billion, I need to find

958
01:25:59.840 --> 01:26:04.400
a way to pay her 500 million. Yeah. Yeah. Even if I don't have it. That can be paid over time.

959
01:26:04.400 --> 01:26:08.000
It's what's called a distributive award. It can be paid over an extended period of time. That's

960
01:26:08.000 --> 01:26:11.120
I'm always going to be trying to argue that this is worth nothing. We're nothing. It's absolutely

961
01:26:11.120 --> 01:26:15.040
effortless. It's worth nothing. You should have negative contingency discounts, a key man discount.

962
01:26:15.040 --> 01:26:19.840
It's a lack of discount for marketability. There's yeah. This is all I do all day. This is the gig.

963
01:26:19.840 --> 01:26:28.800
And see, you know why you want to pren up is because God forbid for both of you that that happens.

964
01:26:28.800 --> 01:26:37.520
Like you're you're going to pay me. I get a thousand dollars an hour to help people navigate

965
01:26:37.520 --> 01:26:46.720
that kind of chaos or to create that kind of chaos as a weapon against a person or to just threaten

966
01:26:46.720 --> 01:26:53.040
that kind of chaos. Doesn't that mean it's you in your interest to stretch us to amplify conflict

967
01:26:53.040 --> 01:26:58.640
and stretch it out and protract it? And by the way, I manipulate people's emotional state for a

968
01:26:58.640 --> 01:27:03.120
living. I said that earlier, you don't think I could use my powers for evil to get my client

969
01:27:03.120 --> 01:27:08.640
terrified and worried that forces are aligning against him. By the way, that's how good lawyers

970
01:27:09.520 --> 01:27:13.760
get their reputation as being good lawyers because sometimes we have a client where we could

971
01:27:13.760 --> 01:27:19.280
potentially make millions of dollars and we settle the case with then like ten thousand dollars

972
01:27:19.280 --> 01:27:25.040
worth of fee. Like I have a case right now where my opposing counsel is I would consider the only

973
01:27:25.040 --> 01:27:30.000
lawyer in New York City better than me. Like he's sort of like an idol to me in the sense that he's

974
01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:34.480
such a good trial lawyer. And he's my adversary on this case. And it's not the first case we've

975
01:27:34.480 --> 01:27:38.640
had against each other. And we are like when the two of us go in a courtroom, it's like T-rex is

976
01:27:38.640 --> 01:27:45.040
fighting. We're going to settle this case in like two phone calls because we both are just not the

977
01:27:45.040 --> 01:27:51.920
kind of people that are going to necessarily amplify conflict. We have our reputation because

978
01:27:51.920 --> 01:27:58.000
we don't do that. Like the best of us, that's how you earn the reputation. The people that do that

979
01:27:58.000 --> 01:28:03.680
amplifying of conflict, word gets out. Word gets out and that's it. This is a business where you

980
01:28:03.680 --> 01:28:09.520
live and die by your reputation. Make sure you keep what I'm about to say to yourself. I'm inviting

981
01:28:09.520 --> 01:28:16.320
10,000 of you to come even deeper into the direviceo. Welcome to my inner circle. This is a brand new

982
01:28:16.320 --> 01:28:20.400
private community that I'm launching to the world. We have so many incredible things that happen

983
01:28:20.400 --> 01:28:25.600
that you are never shown. We have the briefs that are on my pad when I'm recording the conversation.

984
01:28:25.600 --> 01:28:29.680
We have clips we've never released. We have behind the scenes conversations with the guests and

985
01:28:29.680 --> 01:28:36.400
also the episodes that we've never, ever released. And so much more. In the circle you'll have direct

986
01:28:36.400 --> 01:28:40.720
access to me, you can tell us what you want this show to be, who you want us to interview and the

987
01:28:40.720 --> 01:28:46.160
types of conversations you would love us to have. But remember for now, we're only inviting the first

988
01:28:46.160 --> 01:28:50.640
10,000 people that joined before it closes. So if you want to join our private close community,

989
01:28:50.640 --> 01:28:56.640
head to the link in the description below or go to doaccircle.com. I will speak to you then.

990
01:28:59.280 --> 01:29:08.880
So I have some M&Ms here or something. I love M&Ms. Explain to me. So this is actually a great

991
01:29:08.880 --> 01:29:14.800
illustration of what a prenup should be. Okay. All a prenup is a prenup is not a referendum on

992
01:29:14.800 --> 01:29:20.960
the likelihood of us breaking up. A prenup is not a commentary on how much we trust each other.

993
01:29:20.960 --> 01:29:28.960
A prenup is not an opportunity to screw the person you're about to join lives with.

994
01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:37.200
A prenup is a rule set. It's creating tranches. So you have some things. She has some things.

995
01:29:37.760 --> 01:29:43.840
Right now, you don't know her anything. She doesn't owe you anything. Yours is yours, hers is hers.

996
01:29:43.840 --> 01:29:50.160
You're in the title system. Can we talk about if we're just dating? So if you're dating,

997
01:29:50.160 --> 01:29:54.880
I heard that there's some laws where if you date someone long enough, eventually they can basically

998
01:29:54.880 --> 01:29:59.440
argue that they own your stuff. Yeah. So that's called what used to be called common law marriage

999
01:29:59.440 --> 01:30:04.480
or it makes you responsible for what is called palimony, which is like alimony for a friend,

1000
01:30:04.480 --> 01:30:10.960
palimony. Okay. Most jurisdictions no longer honor that it doesn't exist. It was largely a function

1001
01:30:10.960 --> 01:30:16.000
of the absence of marriage equality. So once marriage equality occurred, once gay and lesbian

1002
01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:22.560
individuals could marry, the court system essentially started saying there's no such thing as a quasi-marital

1003
01:30:22.560 --> 01:30:29.040
relationship anymore. If you are married, you're married. If you're not, you're not. So if you decide

1004
01:30:29.040 --> 01:30:34.800
to live together and you don't have a marriage, then you can't have a quasi-marital relationship

1005
01:30:34.800 --> 01:30:39.680
anymore. Now that marriage equality is the law of the land and everyone who wants to get married

1006
01:30:39.760 --> 01:30:45.120
is allowed to get married. You can't say well, we were kind of like married, but we weren't married.

1007
01:30:45.120 --> 01:30:50.720
Like you're either married or you're not married. Those are the two tranches. So that situation,

1008
01:30:50.720 --> 01:30:56.480
you're in the title system, yours is yours, hers is hers. There is no we except for the voluntary

1009
01:30:56.480 --> 01:31:02.800
way. Okay. So now using coming back to this example of these M&M's and pre-knops. So here's what

1010
01:31:02.800 --> 01:31:12.400
marriage is simply put. There's you, there's me. This is we. This is the bucket of we. Okay. When we

1011
01:31:12.400 --> 01:31:24.720
get married, we're going to take you. I didn't put it all. See, I didn't put it all. Okay.

1012
01:31:25.680 --> 01:31:30.480
I'm keeping this separate. That's called separate property. Okay. In California, this is called

1013
01:31:30.480 --> 01:31:35.920
community property. This is anything I acquired during the marriage. Okay. This is separate property.

1014
01:31:35.920 --> 01:31:44.720
If I keep it separate, it stays separate. Okay. It stays separate. Keep that thought. This is her. Okay.

1015
01:31:51.040 --> 01:31:55.680
She's put some of hers in there too. It may not be exactly the same, but it's pretty close to it.

1016
01:31:55.680 --> 01:32:00.800
And by the way, we just got married. It's pretty obvious to see which one's which, right? Okay. So,

1017
01:32:00.800 --> 01:32:07.120
so this is any marriage really with or without a pre-knop. Okay. This is what marriage looks like. There's

1018
01:32:07.120 --> 01:32:10.480
you and there's me and there's we. We're combining. And by the way, this isn't just for assets and

1019
01:32:10.480 --> 01:32:14.880
liabilities. This is like the nature of our stuff, our furniture, the things we bring to the relationship.

1020
01:32:14.880 --> 01:32:20.160
You could even argue it's like what we watch on TV, right? It's you, me, we, and we combine the two.

1021
01:32:20.160 --> 01:32:25.120
Okay. Now you and I both know this is actually what starts to look like. It never says this need

1022
01:32:25.120 --> 01:32:30.640
does it. It always starts to get kind of mixed up together. In the law, we call that homingling. Okay.

1023
01:32:30.640 --> 01:32:40.480
Now, here's what's interesting. With a pre-knop, this stays this simple because anything you put in

1024
01:32:40.480 --> 01:32:46.000
this bucket is marital. And that could be stuff I bought for the house that could be a joint bank

1025
01:32:46.800 --> 01:32:55.440
anything. Okay. All we're doing when we have a pre-knop is yours, mine, ours. And we're defining that.

1026
01:32:56.240 --> 01:33:01.760
So maybe I want you to feel I'm very invested in this relationship so I throw a smaller in.

1027
01:33:02.560 --> 01:33:07.520
Hey, baby, I just got a bonus at work. I'm throwing it into the way. I'm keeping a little over here.

1028
01:33:07.520 --> 01:33:12.640
I'm keeping a little over here. Can you do that off the marriage with a pre-knop? Yeah.

1029
01:33:12.640 --> 01:33:17.360
So you can add to a pre-knop. With a pre-knop, what you're saying is, if it's in my name,

1030
01:33:17.360 --> 01:33:21.840
it's mine, asset or liability. If it's in your name, it's yours, asset or liability. If it's in our

1031
01:33:21.840 --> 01:33:28.240
joint names, we divide it 50, 50, or how we agree in writing. But we create three separate buckets,

1032
01:33:28.240 --> 01:33:35.600
yours, mine, and ours. Okay. Do you know what happens in the state of California after seven years

1033
01:33:35.600 --> 01:33:43.920
or in the state of New York if you commingle assets in any way? This is solely things in your name.

1034
01:33:43.920 --> 01:33:48.800
This is solely things in her name, things you owned before marriage. This is the you and the me before

1035
01:33:48.800 --> 01:33:58.560
you got married. It's community property now. All of it. Everything. All of it. Every bit of it.

1036
01:33:58.640 --> 01:34:06.160
You didn't have a pre-knop. Everything that's in it. Everything in here is subject to division.

1037
01:34:06.960 --> 01:34:13.440
Everything that's in here is subject to identification, valuation, and division. And think about

1038
01:34:14.320 --> 01:34:22.480
think about sorting that out. I'm also going back to my friend. Some of the value of these assets

1039
01:34:22.480 --> 01:34:27.680
is up for debate. Sure. Not only is the value, because look, some of these are cracked and some of

1040
01:34:27.680 --> 01:34:31.440
them aren't. And did they crack in this process or were they cracked before? Did she crack them?

1041
01:34:31.440 --> 01:34:35.120
Or did you crack them? And which ones are worth more than the others? And were these the same?

1042
01:34:35.120 --> 01:34:40.960
It doesn't matter. It's all in. And by the way, take out the marital take out your property now.

1043
01:34:41.520 --> 01:34:46.560
How long is that going to take you? It's impossible to do. Once you're in the community property

1044
01:34:46.560 --> 01:34:51.200
system, once you've put something into the Wii category, if you get married without a pre-knop,

1045
01:34:51.760 --> 01:35:00.800
you can unintentionally buy into this system, which by the way, I make a very comfortable living

1046
01:35:01.520 --> 01:35:11.120
helping people sort this out. Whereas, whereas, all you had to do was agree on the rule set

1047
01:35:11.680 --> 01:35:18.240
of yours, mine, ours. And then this is intentional. Now, I understand why that's scary for some people.

1048
01:35:18.880 --> 01:35:23.120
Because you have to have a conversation about, well, are we putting that in joint names?

1049
01:35:23.120 --> 01:35:27.840
Or, well, you got that bonus. Are you putting it in my account or your account or some in your

1050
01:35:27.840 --> 01:35:33.920
account and some in my account or some in this? But isn't it better to keep some level of control

1051
01:35:33.920 --> 01:35:42.080
over this? If I was financially motivated, individual, and I was marrying, say, you, and you were a

1052
01:35:42.080 --> 01:35:45.120
billionaire, I mean, it's very much in my interest to avoid this pre-knop.

1053
01:35:46.080 --> 01:35:50.320
Maybe. Yeah. Because then, you know, it's all going to become win seven years time.

1054
01:35:50.320 --> 01:35:53.280
So I'm just going to be with you for seven years. And then I can bounce out of this,

1055
01:35:53.280 --> 01:35:56.960
and I'm going to make half a billion dollars. Have you ever seen that? Of course.

1056
01:35:56.960 --> 01:36:01.760
Have you ever seen, say, but here's also what I will say to you. Flip that story for a second.

1057
01:36:02.880 --> 01:36:07.120
So we're married for six and a half years. It's going pretty well.

1058
01:36:08.560 --> 01:36:14.800
We're at the six and a half year mark. You're a billionaire. You're probably not stupid,

1059
01:36:14.880 --> 01:36:19.920
right? Are you going to take that bet? Is it seven years is the money? Seven years is the

1060
01:36:19.920 --> 01:36:25.360
moment when it all becomes community property. So do you find some very successful people?

1061
01:36:25.360 --> 01:36:29.360
Yeah. They spike the divorce rate at six or six and a half years. Because why? It's the same

1062
01:36:29.360 --> 01:36:35.840
reason why I tell people don't put what we call sunset clauses in a pre-knop. Because people,

1063
01:36:35.840 --> 01:36:40.080
people all have the bright idea that they're going to, oh, well, we'll do a pre-knop, but after 10

1064
01:36:40.080 --> 01:36:46.480
years, it'll go away. After 10 years, it'll self-destruct like admission impossible.

1065
01:36:47.040 --> 01:36:51.760
And all that does is makes people ask really icky questions at the nine and a half year mark,

1066
01:36:51.760 --> 01:36:56.000
where they have to start going. Because seven years, seven years, it's like the honeymoon's over.

1067
01:36:56.000 --> 01:37:02.160
Maybe you got a kid or two. And all of a sudden you go, okay, do I want fully one half of everything

1068
01:37:02.160 --> 01:37:07.520
I owned prior to the marriage to now be subject to division? Is it going that good? Do I want to

1069
01:37:07.520 --> 01:37:13.280
take this bet? Look, we live in reality. What you're doing when you marry someone is you're

1070
01:37:13.280 --> 01:37:18.320
marrying your destiny to them and you're making decisions about a future that you can't see,

1071
01:37:18.320 --> 01:37:23.600
it hasn't happened yet. If seven years is the moment when our assets become

1072
01:37:24.400 --> 01:37:29.360
co-mingled to the point that community property where we have to kind of split our assets in a

1073
01:37:29.360 --> 01:37:34.720
relationship, have you ever seen someone get to like seven years and one day and then fall for the

1074
01:37:35.680 --> 01:37:42.000
people who wait until the exact moment? There's other formulas that are applicable. I have

1075
01:37:42.000 --> 01:37:45.600
plenty of people right now that have come to me for a consultation and they're like, I'm not going

1076
01:37:45.600 --> 01:37:49.200
to file for another six months because we'll hit 20 years and six months and when we hit that,

1077
01:37:49.200 --> 01:37:54.160
it kicks up to another level of alimony in terms of the formulas. Here's the thing. When the

1078
01:37:54.160 --> 01:38:02.560
government makes decisions for you, they set numbers. There's a highway near where we are right now.

1079
01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:08.880
It's 55 miles an hour. It's an acceptable legal speed to drive on that. 56 and you're committing a

1080
01:38:08.880 --> 01:38:14.960
crime. 76 and you're committing a different level of crime. 106 and you're committing a higher level

1081
01:38:14.960 --> 01:38:21.440
felony crime, right? Is 56 and 55 that much different? No, we had to pick a number so we picked that

1082
01:38:21.440 --> 01:38:29.040
number. So do you trust the government to pick the number? That's the only question to ask when

1083
01:38:29.040 --> 01:38:32.560
you're thinking about a prenup. Is do I trust the government so much that I'm going to let them

1084
01:38:32.560 --> 01:38:38.880
pick the number? Personally, I don't. Personally, if I like someone so much that I've decided I'm going

1085
01:38:38.880 --> 01:38:43.840
to choose them out of eight billion other options, I would think I have enough faith in that person

1086
01:38:43.840 --> 01:38:48.400
to come up with a rule set between us that we've, and by the way, not a complicated rule set.

1087
01:38:48.400 --> 01:38:52.480
If it's in my name, it's mine. If it's in your name, it's yours. If it's in our name, it's ours.

1088
01:38:52.480 --> 01:38:55.840
Then you can have all the conversations you want about why aren't you putting things in joint

1089
01:38:55.840 --> 01:38:59.280
names or why are you putting things in joint names? And here's what I need to feel safe because

1090
01:38:59.280 --> 01:39:03.040
here's the thing. If you're the billionaire or you're the person marrying the billionaire,

1091
01:39:03.680 --> 01:39:07.280
you both want to feel, remember, we're going back to what is it you want to feel? What is it you want

1092
01:39:07.280 --> 01:39:12.320
to feel? That's the key question. What do you want to feel? You both want to feel safe. Isn't that

1093
01:39:12.320 --> 01:39:16.480
fair? I've represented a lot of victims of intimate partner abuse and domestic violence and

1094
01:39:16.480 --> 01:39:21.120
coercive control. And I can tell you, you can't feel loved if you don't feel safe. And there's

1095
01:39:21.200 --> 01:39:27.520
lots of ways for a person to feel unsafe, physically, emotionally, financially. There's lots of

1096
01:39:27.520 --> 01:39:32.960
ways to make someone fit. I hope you want to make your fiance feel safe. And I hope she wants to

1097
01:39:32.960 --> 01:39:38.240
make you feel safe. So one of the ways that you make her feel safe, by the way, you can't protect

1098
01:39:38.240 --> 01:39:42.080
her from everything in the world. You know that, right? Like somebody drops a nuke. There's nothing

1099
01:39:42.080 --> 01:39:45.840
you're going to be able to do to help her with that. Okay? There's lots of things that can happen

1100
01:39:45.840 --> 01:39:50.560
that you can't keep her safe from. But you're going to do your darnest. And that's great. Okay?

1101
01:39:50.560 --> 01:39:55.840
And by the way, like she wants you to feel safe. She wants you to feel safe and not take an

1102
01:39:55.840 --> 01:40:00.720
advantage of and loved for who you are. Right? I have every confidence. She does not love you just

1103
01:40:00.720 --> 01:40:05.040
for money. There's lots of people with money in the world. So she loves the unique combination of

1104
01:40:05.040 --> 01:40:09.680
things that are you one factor of which may be that you're a very successful man professionally.

1105
01:40:09.680 --> 01:40:13.280
And that makes her feel safe. And that makes her feel secure. And it makes her feel like she can

1106
01:40:13.280 --> 01:40:17.920
really have a future with you. That's a bright and lovely one. And she can focus her energies on things

1107
01:40:17.920 --> 01:40:22.480
other than finance. Great. This is great, man. We're both happy. We're doing the thing.

1108
01:40:23.200 --> 01:40:30.800
So what is wrong with just keeping this conversation and ongoing conversation about what is it we

1109
01:40:30.800 --> 01:40:35.920
need to feel safe? Because if you are in that dynamic where she's gorgeous and he's rich.

1110
01:40:37.040 --> 01:40:43.920
If she says to him, Hey, if we split up, I'm going to like need some things. Like I'm not really

1111
01:40:43.920 --> 01:40:48.320
focusing on finances and you have so much more than me. You're telling me that guy's not going to

1112
01:40:48.320 --> 01:40:52.960
say, yeah, it makes sense. And by the way, when's the time to have that conversation when you're

1113
01:40:52.960 --> 01:40:56.400
madly in love with each other and the beginning of this thing when you're on your knee in front of

1114
01:40:56.400 --> 01:41:01.280
the restaurant, you know, a proposal to the person. You don't have it when you're breaking up.

1115
01:41:01.280 --> 01:41:06.080
That's the worst time to have that conversation. Have it when you're first having that abundance

1116
01:41:06.080 --> 01:41:11.280
of optimism and connection to each other. And then and then by the way, what does he feel unsafe?

1117
01:41:11.280 --> 01:41:15.680
He feels unsafe that he's saying, look, I'm willing to contribute financially to this

1118
01:41:15.680 --> 01:41:19.920
relationship. Clearly, I've proven that. I bought you a Birken bag. I bought you a car. I pay for

1119
01:41:19.920 --> 01:41:24.080
your bills. I'm signing on to marry you and to give you a wonderful, beautiful life.

1120
01:41:24.720 --> 01:41:31.680
Are you entitled to 100% or 50% of everything I've ever owned? I have so much more than you right

1121
01:41:31.680 --> 01:41:37.600
now. Like that seems wildly due. Are you saying that everything I earn from the date of marriage on?

1122
01:41:37.600 --> 01:41:42.960
We should split. That's what's great about a prenup. You can make whatever rules you want to

1123
01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:50.960
in that situation. So I believe there is genuine value in having honest conversations about these

1124
01:41:50.960 --> 01:41:58.400
things. Look, it's just M&Ms. It's just money. The end of the day. And by the way, this has no more

1125
01:41:58.400 --> 01:42:02.720
real value than the pieces of paper you're holding in your pocket that we've attributed value to.

1126
01:42:02.720 --> 01:42:06.320
If anything, this tastes good. Chew on money all you want. It won't help.

1127
01:42:06.960 --> 01:42:12.560
I did have this conversation with my partner. We talked about it. She was very supportive of

1128
01:42:12.560 --> 01:42:16.640
a prenup because she also wants one. She wants to protect her assets and the business that she's

1129
01:42:16.640 --> 01:42:22.960
built and all those kinds of things, which was useful. But also, I acknowledged that I earn more

1130
01:42:22.960 --> 01:42:27.680
money. So in the event that we have a big family in the future, we have four or five kids,

1131
01:42:27.680 --> 01:42:32.400
I think I need to contribute more to make sure that she's fine in the event.

1132
01:42:32.400 --> 01:42:39.200
Not, of course. But see, this is the point. You're a reasonable person. If your response when she

1133
01:42:39.200 --> 01:42:44.640
said, well, we may want to have a family. And if we do, you have so much more than me. And

1134
01:42:44.640 --> 01:42:50.560
although I'm signing off to protect your assets, the pursuits I am really concentrating my day on

1135
01:42:50.560 --> 01:42:54.800
are not purely financial. They're more for the good of the world or for the good of individuals.

1136
01:42:54.800 --> 01:43:00.000
I'm a helper. I'm a person who wants to make the world a better place. I know a little bit

1137
01:43:00.000 --> 01:43:05.680
about her that I know that these are her goals. Her goal is not to be, I want to be the CEO of everything.

1138
01:43:05.680 --> 01:43:10.640
Her goal is to help the world and to help people. That's beautiful. That's probably one of the reasons

1139
01:43:10.640 --> 01:43:17.040
why you love her so much. And so, isn't that a conversation the two of you should have now and

1140
01:43:17.040 --> 01:43:21.200
say, well, of course. And by the way, if we have kids, I'm going to need different things. What's

1141
01:43:21.200 --> 01:43:25.440
great about a prenup is you can make one that says, if we don't have kids, it's this. If we have

1142
01:43:25.440 --> 01:43:29.760
kids, it's this. Like, there's protections you can put in that make sense to both of you.

1143
01:43:29.760 --> 01:43:36.160
What about pets? I've heard about this petnup. Petnup. Yeah. What's a petnup? And do people actually?

1144
01:43:36.160 --> 01:43:42.960
Yeah. Yeah. A petnup is I actually created the site, trusted petnup.com. And it's free. It's

1145
01:43:42.960 --> 01:43:50.400
100% free. It's a pay as you wish. So if you want to pay anything towards it, 100% of it goes to

1146
01:43:50.400 --> 01:43:57.440
animal shelters, basically, to 501c3 animal shelters. But essentially, what we have found is

1147
01:43:57.440 --> 01:44:01.920
happening more in the legal system right now is the equivalent of custody cases, but for companion

1148
01:44:01.920 --> 01:44:06.880
animals. So people have a dog, people have a cat, people have a bird, people have any combination

1149
01:44:06.880 --> 01:44:13.600
of animals. We feel deeply emotionally invested in our pets. The law for many years looked at pets

1150
01:44:13.600 --> 01:44:20.160
as what was called chattel. Chattel is property. And property is essentially like if you killed someone's

1151
01:44:20.160 --> 01:44:26.080
dog, you owed them the replacement value of the dog. What you tend to see from a legal perspective

1152
01:44:26.080 --> 01:44:32.080
here, is it that at one point, they bought a pet together. They never really clarified who owns

1153
01:44:32.080 --> 01:44:35.360
the pet. They go through a divorce, they're both arguing over the pet. That happened a lot.

1154
01:44:35.360 --> 01:44:39.920
Yeah. That was the most common permutation. Sometimes it was they got a pet together while

1155
01:44:40.000 --> 01:44:45.680
they were dating. And one of them was living in their own apartment or whatever, and the dog

1156
01:44:45.680 --> 01:44:50.160
or cat was living with them. And then they merged their homes. And now they both grow deeply attached

1157
01:44:50.160 --> 01:44:55.280
to this animal. And they've spent five years or 10 years together with this animal. And now they

1158
01:44:55.280 --> 01:45:01.040
both, like a child, they both have this, like a stepchild is very similar. It's not my blood child,

1159
01:45:01.040 --> 01:45:06.400
but it's someone who I've spent a long time with and been part of their care. And I mean something

1160
01:45:06.560 --> 01:45:12.560
to them. So for many, many years, pets were considered chattel. They were considered property.

1161
01:45:12.560 --> 01:45:19.280
So I remember a case in New York County where the parties could not agree on what to do with the

1162
01:45:19.280 --> 01:45:23.200
dog, like who would keep the dog? And the judge said, okay, I'm ordering the dog to be sold in

1163
01:45:23.200 --> 01:45:27.200
the proceeds divided. And of course, the people that went outside and figured it was very

1164
01:45:27.200 --> 01:45:31.280
solemn and like the people went outside and figured out a visitation schedule for the dog.

1165
01:45:31.280 --> 01:45:35.600
But what we're just saying is just like anything in a prenup, do this in advance.

1166
01:45:35.600 --> 01:45:39.120
Just do this in advance. You have a pet, have a pet in up. Even if you're not getting married,

1167
01:45:39.120 --> 01:45:44.240
if you're cohabitating or you're dating someone, have a contract that says, we both care about

1168
01:45:44.240 --> 01:45:49.200
this animal. We've adopted this animal or we purchased this animal or we brought this animal

1169
01:45:49.200 --> 01:45:56.320
into our lives. And now in the event that our relationship ends, here's what the rules will be.

1170
01:45:56.880 --> 01:46:01.360
We will jointly make important medical decisions and be guided by the veterinarians,

1171
01:46:01.360 --> 01:46:06.400
you know, perspective. If either of us ever is going to give up the animal for adoption,

1172
01:46:06.400 --> 01:46:11.760
the other person will have the automatic right to adopt the animal. If the time eventually comes

1173
01:46:11.760 --> 01:46:17.040
where there has been a recommendation of euthanasia, by the way, we will both be entitled to be there

1174
01:46:17.040 --> 01:46:22.320
when we say goodbye to that dog or we'll both be entitled to jointly agree on where that

1175
01:46:22.320 --> 01:46:26.880
animal's ashes will be or where they'll be buried or will each be entitled to one half of the

1176
01:46:26.880 --> 01:46:32.080
ashes or will have a visitation schedule for the dog in the event that we separate. That's what a

1177
01:46:32.080 --> 01:46:39.360
petnup is. A petnup is a contract between two people. Look, just like kids, pets didn't ask for

1178
01:46:39.360 --> 01:46:44.800
this. Pets didn't ask for you guys to break up. It's not their fault. Like I don't know anybody that

1179
01:46:44.800 --> 01:46:48.640
ever broke up because of the dog or the cat. I'm sure there's somebody out there, but that's not

1180
01:46:48.640 --> 01:46:54.720
what it's about. So it is very, very useful to have in advance a rule set. I like rules in

1181
01:46:54.720 --> 01:46:59.440
advance. I like to know the rules of the game that we're playing because we can adjust our behavior

1182
01:46:59.440 --> 01:47:07.040
accordingly. Ism divorce increasing statistically? So it's the most recent statistic is the divorce

1183
01:47:07.040 --> 01:47:14.720
rate is slowly going up. It was low. It had gone down. It went down during the pandemic. Part of

1184
01:47:14.720 --> 01:47:20.000
that was a function of access to the court system. Again, when you're looking at the divorce

1185
01:47:20.000 --> 01:47:25.200
rate, the divorce rate is calculated based on the filing of what's called certificate of dissolution

1186
01:47:25.200 --> 01:47:30.640
of marriage, which is the final document that's filed with the state by the court system when a

1187
01:47:30.640 --> 01:47:35.040
divorce has been finalized. So all you're really seeing there is what marriage is catastrophically

1188
01:47:35.040 --> 01:47:38.880
failed and there was a judgment of divorce center. There are many people that just go out for milk

1189
01:47:38.880 --> 01:47:42.560
and never come back or they physically separate and then they never finalize a divorce. They're not

1190
01:47:42.560 --> 01:47:46.960
factored into that statistic. So and the people who quietly stay together miserable or live in

1191
01:47:46.960 --> 01:47:51.840
different places and just move out and never finalize their divorce, that statistic doesn't include

1192
01:47:51.840 --> 01:47:56.400
any of those people. These are just the people that it actually ended in divorce and that divorce

1193
01:47:56.400 --> 01:48:03.040
was registered with the state. But the divorce rate went down and then the divorce filing rate spiked

1194
01:48:03.040 --> 01:48:08.720
when the court systems opened back up post pandemic. And now it's steadily going back up again. Now

1195
01:48:08.720 --> 01:48:15.360
what's interesting is the marriage rate is going down and the average age at which people

1196
01:48:15.360 --> 01:48:21.360
marry is going up. I was looking at the generational divide here and it says younger couples,

1197
01:48:21.360 --> 01:48:26.800
so millennials and Gen Z divorce rates have plummeted. They are marrying later cohabiting first

1198
01:48:26.800 --> 01:48:31.600
and statistically more selective leading to more stable marriages. However, there is something called

1199
01:48:31.600 --> 01:48:38.320
the gray divorce. Divorce rates for people over 50. They refer to as gray divorce has doubled

1200
01:48:38.320 --> 01:48:45.360
since 1990 and tripled for those over 65. Gray divorce is something that a lot of divorce

1201
01:48:45.360 --> 01:48:49.600
lawyers are thinking and talking a lot about right now, which is that first of all, people are

1202
01:48:49.600 --> 01:48:54.960
living much longer. People are living in a different way much longer thanks to things like erectile

1203
01:48:54.960 --> 01:49:02.720
dysfunction medication. An 80-year-old having a active sex life is not something that really existed

1204
01:49:03.680 --> 01:49:09.120
so often prior to the pharmaceutical advent of erectile dysfunction drugs, which really only

1205
01:49:09.120 --> 01:49:16.000
occurred in the last 20 years. There's a big change in what a 70-year-old or 80-year-old's

1206
01:49:16.000 --> 01:49:21.840
quality of life is and what they look like and what their health is like. With hormone replacement

1207
01:49:21.840 --> 01:49:27.360
therapy, with all the different medications that are out there, people are living more

1208
01:49:28.480 --> 01:49:35.200
sexually and romantically charged lives in their elder years than they used to, which often

1209
01:49:35.200 --> 01:49:39.360
leads people to say, you know what, I've got 10 more years. I'm not going to stay in this unhappy

1210
01:49:39.360 --> 01:49:43.440
relationship and I'm going to split up. I actually don't think by the way that those two statistics

1211
01:49:43.440 --> 01:49:48.560
that you just talked about are unrelated. I think millennials, they haven't been married for

1212
01:49:48.640 --> 01:49:54.080
that long yet. Like, the question of catastrophic failure of a marriage, like, I've said it before

1213
01:49:54.080 --> 01:49:59.600
that people get divorced the same way they go bankrupt very slowly and then all at once.

1214
01:49:59.600 --> 01:50:02.800
One of the reasons given in the research I did as well were quite, quite

1215
01:50:04.480 --> 01:50:07.520
unobvious on the surface. One of them is that women in this generation,

1216
01:50:07.520 --> 01:50:11.840
boomers in Gen Z are more likely to have their own careers and retirement savings than previous

1217
01:50:11.840 --> 01:50:15.680
generations, meaning they can afford to leave unhappy marriages. I'm going to have spoken with

1218
01:50:15.680 --> 01:50:20.560
menopause experts and so on. They've told me they see this often in the season of life, women will

1219
01:50:20.560 --> 01:50:27.360
make a decision to leave. The other one is the reduced stigma about divorce. So divorce is

1220
01:50:27.360 --> 01:50:32.480
no longer seen as a moral failure, making it socially easier to split later in life. I believe

1221
01:50:32.480 --> 01:50:37.360
that that's true. I think that we've definitely changed the manner in which we relate to divorce.

1222
01:50:37.360 --> 01:50:43.440
We no longer consider it a catastrophic failure socially. I think that we often see it as the ending

1223
01:50:43.440 --> 01:50:46.880
of a chapter in the beginning of a new one. I don't think that that's bad. I think

1224
01:50:46.880 --> 01:50:51.920
destigmatizing divorce and seeing that, okay, sometimes it is better for people when the

1225
01:50:51.920 --> 01:50:56.320
relationship is no longer working for both of them and they've done the things they've tried

1226
01:50:56.320 --> 01:51:00.000
to do to make it work and they've decided that happily ever after means happily ever after

1227
01:51:00.000 --> 01:51:04.720
separately. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Similarly, you could make the argument

1228
01:51:04.720 --> 01:51:09.520
that one of the reasons millennials, and again, only time will tell that millennials are better

1229
01:51:09.520 --> 01:51:14.400
at staying married is going to be that they go into it with more realistic expectations.

1230
01:51:14.400 --> 01:51:18.000
They don't go into it with the expectation that this person's going to be there everything. They

1231
01:51:18.000 --> 01:51:22.000
look at it and go, yeah, as a human being, I'm marrying another human being, I haven't quite figured

1232
01:51:22.000 --> 01:51:27.760
myself out. Which of your books was more popular? How not to fuck up your marriage? Straight talk

1233
01:51:27.760 --> 01:51:33.840
from a divorce lawyer who's seen it all, or how to stay in love. So how to stay in love has been

1234
01:51:33.920 --> 01:51:39.920
out longer. So it's done quite well over the period of time. It's in its forth printing right now.

1235
01:51:39.920 --> 01:51:45.520
And what about this book do you think was resonant? Is there a particular idea that was number one

1236
01:51:45.520 --> 01:51:51.600
in this book? I think A, it was the first book written by a divorce lawyer to head on,

1237
01:51:52.160 --> 01:51:58.640
take on the topic of how to not get divorced. It was a how not to book, basically. So I think that

1238
01:51:58.720 --> 01:52:05.520
that was the key concept was keeping people connected and what you could learn. Look,

1239
01:52:05.520 --> 01:52:10.000
who are you going to go to if you want to learn how to keep your car in good condition?

1240
01:52:10.000 --> 01:52:16.240
A new car dealer or a mechanic? Like a new car dealer only sees brand new cars. They don't know

1241
01:52:16.240 --> 01:52:21.520
anything about, you know, about how to actually keep one together. Mechanics are good at that.

1242
01:52:21.520 --> 01:52:25.680
We tell you where the predictable points of failure are. So I think that was what made the book

1243
01:52:25.680 --> 01:52:29.840
popular? What's the most important thing we didn't talk about that we should have talked about

1244
01:52:29.840 --> 01:52:35.520
as it pertains to the subject of holding on to this very precious thing and very elusive thing

1245
01:52:35.520 --> 01:52:40.640
for many called love? You know, something I've been thinking a lot about lately is two

1246
01:52:42.560 --> 01:52:48.880
and I say this to you as an engaged man and as a friend. I think there's two seemingly

1247
01:52:48.880 --> 01:52:54.960
contradictory assumptions people make when they get married that I hope you're not making.

1248
01:52:55.840 --> 01:53:02.720
I hope this couple neither person in this couple is making. One is thinking that

1249
01:53:04.880 --> 01:53:11.040
marriage will change the other person. So, you know, Steven works so much and he's so hard

1250
01:53:11.040 --> 01:53:15.680
charging but once we get married he'll come home more and he'll be home more and he'll calm down more.

1251
01:53:15.680 --> 01:53:21.760
You know, she's, you know, very worried about me when I'm making something up but she's

1252
01:53:21.760 --> 01:53:25.120
worried about me when I'm out and on the road and she's worried about temptation bothering me but

1253
01:53:25.120 --> 01:53:28.880
once we're married she'll know we have a really solid commitment. She won't have that worry

1254
01:53:28.880 --> 01:53:36.720
anymore. Thinking that marriage is going to change someone is a very dangerous assumption

1255
01:53:36.720 --> 01:53:41.600
and a lot of the people that come into my office they entered marriage thinking this is going

1256
01:53:41.600 --> 01:53:49.280
to change things that I want to see changed. The contradictory second thing is thinking

1257
01:53:50.320 --> 01:53:58.880
once we get married nothing will change. Thinking this is so lovely she's so wonderful. I love

1258
01:53:58.880 --> 01:54:03.840
the version of me she brings out so I'm so wonderful when I'm with her and her thinking he's so

1259
01:54:03.840 --> 01:54:08.640
wonderful and I love who he how he makes me because you know we don't just love the person.

1260
01:54:09.360 --> 01:54:14.400
We love the person we are when we're with that person. We love that person makes us feel about

1261
01:54:14.400 --> 01:54:20.000
ourselves. That's a lovely thing. It's one of the best things about love, right? So making the

1262
01:54:20.000 --> 01:54:26.960
assumption that that will never change that nothing about this relate that marrying will somehow

1263
01:54:26.960 --> 01:54:32.560
build a wall around this beautiful wonderful warm thing that we found together and it'll protect

1264
01:54:32.560 --> 01:54:37.680
it from all the other things in the world and nothing will change and it'll just stay wonderful

1265
01:54:37.760 --> 01:54:45.600
is another very dangerous assumption. So even though it seems like a contradiction I hope that

1266
01:54:45.600 --> 01:54:52.080
things change and I hope some things don't change and the only way that I can think of

1267
01:54:53.120 --> 01:54:57.840
to let those two contradictory elements peacefully coexist in a manner that doesn't lead

1268
01:54:57.840 --> 01:55:04.960
directly to the desk in front of me is to just keep talking about it and when things change

1269
01:55:05.680 --> 01:55:11.520
just talk about it just point it out not with judgment not with anger not with the belief

1270
01:55:11.520 --> 01:55:16.880
that because something changed it's bad and not with the change that changes automatically good

1271
01:55:16.880 --> 01:55:24.640
just saying hey remember these two people that guy's a little different now is that okay why did

1272
01:55:24.640 --> 01:55:29.440
that happen is that a good thing is it a bad thing do you miss him is there something that we could

1273
01:55:29.440 --> 01:55:37.040
do that's different or better like these two people found value in each other they love the other

1274
01:55:37.040 --> 01:55:40.960
person and they love who they are when they're with the person and again I'll say it again

1275
01:55:42.000 --> 01:55:47.680
your marriage will end I promise I hope it ends in death and I hope when it ends

1276
01:55:48.640 --> 01:55:54.240
that you will look at her and you will say she helped me become the most authentic version of

1277
01:55:54.240 --> 01:56:02.000
myself and she's still my favorite person that's the greatest gift that you could give to her

1278
01:56:02.000 --> 01:56:05.760
and that you can give to each other and that I think the two of you together could give to the world

1279
01:56:09.360 --> 01:56:16.800
and that's worth all the eminems why do you point to authenticity as being so important in this

1280
01:56:16.800 --> 01:56:22.240
context because you use that word she helped me become the most authentic version of myself why

1281
01:56:22.240 --> 01:56:27.920
does that matter because it's not about becoming the version of you that she envisions for you

1282
01:56:27.920 --> 01:56:32.720
or her becoming who you want her to become I think that sometimes love

1283
01:56:34.880 --> 01:56:41.360
the person doesn't become what we wanted them to be and I think sometimes what we wanted them to be

1284
01:56:41.360 --> 01:56:46.560
might not be the most authentic version of who they are you know kehil gobran in the prophet

1285
01:56:47.120 --> 01:56:51.120
when he's talking about children he says that children are living arrows

1286
01:56:53.040 --> 01:57:00.160
and that you you fire the arrow and yes your aim has something to do with it but the wind has

1287
01:57:00.160 --> 01:57:05.200
something to do with it and so many other things have something to do with it and so you know

1288
01:57:05.200 --> 01:57:11.600
God loves the archer with the steady hand and the arrow that's straight and I feel like

1289
01:57:12.480 --> 01:57:20.640
if you were to say this person became who I wanted them to become like because again I think

1290
01:57:20.640 --> 01:57:31.600
our duty in the best symbiosis you care a lot about her even more so than you do about yourself

1291
01:57:32.320 --> 01:57:38.800
and she cares about you even more so than she does about herself but not to have you become

1292
01:57:38.800 --> 01:57:44.480
the man she wants you to be and not for her to become the woman you want her to be you want

1293
01:57:44.480 --> 01:57:50.480
to be of service to her and she wants to be of service to you I want to help you become the most

1294
01:57:50.480 --> 01:57:57.600
authentic version of you I can see your blind spots you can't that's why they're blind spots

1295
01:57:57.600 --> 01:58:04.000
so I'm going to help you become the most authentic version of yourself that's the promise

1296
01:58:04.080 --> 01:58:09.040
that should be the promise in marriage is I want to help you become I'm going to do what I

1297
01:58:09.040 --> 01:58:14.800
can to be of service to helping you become the most authentic version of yourself and when you

1298
01:58:14.800 --> 01:58:21.840
become it you'll still be my favorite person because at the core of you is this thing that I love

1299
01:58:24.800 --> 01:58:30.240
I hope I do a good job I hope you too scary isn't it because you think of all the ways you can

1300
01:58:30.240 --> 01:58:38.560
fuck it up you know what that's why it's brave like if you're not scared it's not brave it's

1301
01:58:38.560 --> 01:58:43.920
brave because you're scared and you do it anyway and it's worth doing it because if the prize at

1302
01:58:43.920 --> 01:58:49.680
the end of it is figuring out who you are and helping someone figure out who they are and having

1303
01:58:49.680 --> 01:58:55.600
a partner in all of this like what's better than that man what what riches could you hold that are

1304
01:58:55.600 --> 01:59:01.120
greater than that like that's the greatest gift you could seek in life and and by the way

1305
01:59:01.760 --> 01:59:08.560
it also has the power if it's done right to transform the world because it really is family

1306
01:59:09.280 --> 01:59:19.840
community culture world you know and so yeah it's it's the fact that you say it's scary is great

1307
01:59:20.560 --> 01:59:26.400
because it means you realize this is a serious thing and it's something that you realize is serious

1308
01:59:26.400 --> 01:59:32.160
you're going to make a concerted effort to be good at amen we have a closing tradition as you know

1309
01:59:32.880 --> 01:59:38.560
the question left for you is what is the most significant dream you have had in the past year

1310
01:59:39.600 --> 01:59:41.840
and how did it change your behavior

1311
01:59:41.840 --> 01:59:52.320
yeah go on I know I want to get through this without crying I had a I dream about my mom

1312
02:00:02.560 --> 02:00:09.200
it's okay my mom died 10 years ago after a long battle with cancer

1313
02:00:09.520 --> 02:00:19.920
and there was a lot between us that needed to be said and wasn't said we had some peace and some closure

1314
02:00:19.920 --> 02:00:28.880
but there's a lot I didn't hadn't figured out about myself by the time she passed and there's a

1315
02:00:28.880 --> 02:00:35.920
part of me that wishes she was here so that I could have apologized for some things I got wrong

1316
02:00:35.920 --> 02:00:46.240
and I could have understood her better and I had a dream that she was just there just sitting with me

1317
02:00:49.120 --> 02:00:56.720
and my mom was like me she never shut up she would just constantly talk and talk over you and

1318
02:00:58.720 --> 02:01:02.320
I got that from her her very energetic she also cried constantly

1319
02:01:03.280 --> 02:01:08.560
in for joy tears of joy should listen to music and start crying because it was so beautiful I

1320
02:01:08.560 --> 02:01:13.120
realized I got that from her most of the really warm things in me came from her

1321
02:01:15.280 --> 02:01:22.320
and in this dream she just sat there silently and I kept talking to her I don't remember what I was

1322
02:01:22.320 --> 02:01:29.040
saying but I just kept talking to her and she just sat there quietly and just was patting my leg

1323
02:01:32.720 --> 02:01:49.920
and I remember I woke up and I felt I felt very like calm I felt very like it spent time with her

1324
02:01:51.920 --> 02:01:58.080
and I thought to myself I think that that was something I don't know if it was her visiting me I don't

1325
02:01:58.080 --> 02:02:01.920
know if it was God talking to me I don't know if it was just my subconscious telling me something I

1326
02:02:01.920 --> 02:02:10.640
needed to see but I felt like it was saying to me that you know that sometimes the words got in

1327
02:02:10.640 --> 02:02:17.440
the way between the two of us and that maybe what really mattered the most was just that we were next

1328
02:02:17.520 --> 02:02:30.240
to each other and I tried to since I had that dream do that more with the people I love

1329
02:02:32.080 --> 02:02:42.000
it's hard for me to stop talking and I'm learning with my sons and with the people that I love

1330
02:02:42.880 --> 02:02:51.600
that sometimes just being next to them is nice that I don't need to I'm really good at talking

1331
02:02:51.600 --> 02:02:58.080
so I just keep doing it and it maybe sometimes it's nice to just stop and just be with someone

1332
02:02:59.040 --> 02:03:06.160
and so I felt like that that was a very powerful dream it was a very simple dream but it was one

1333
02:03:07.120 --> 02:03:13.520
that it changed the way I'm trying to relate to people so you come to cry again and kill

1334
02:03:13.520 --> 02:03:22.320
me at the end of the day it all comes back to love doesn't it yeah it does isn't it funny all roads

1335
02:03:22.320 --> 02:03:27.280
isn't it funny like we've added all these layers of complexity to it yeah that's all it comes

1336
02:03:27.280 --> 02:03:31.840
down to isn't it crazy yeah it really is someone asked me that on stage that like last week I was

1337
02:03:31.840 --> 02:03:35.520
speaking in the Middle East somewhere and they asked me about like what does everybody want

1338
02:03:36.160 --> 02:03:41.040
that was literally the question my answer was love and we're like confused about the path to it

1339
02:03:41.040 --> 02:03:44.640
so some of us think the path to it is like if I get the number one pull card maybe that on me

1340
02:03:44.640 --> 02:03:50.960
or maybe that would mean I'm worthy of love yeah like we we come to we've come to associate

1341
02:03:50.960 --> 02:03:57.040
accomplishment with being worthy of love and that's really all that it is like it's really all

1342
02:03:57.040 --> 02:04:02.080
that it is like what otherwise what's the purpose of it like how many super cars can one person have

1343
02:04:02.080 --> 02:04:06.240
and how much joy can they really give you can only drive them one at a time you know like it really

1344
02:04:06.240 --> 02:04:11.680
is about like no I feel worthy I feel worthy of love I feel proud of who I am which is I'm proud

1345
02:04:11.680 --> 02:04:16.000
of who I am which means I'm worthy of love it it really all comes back to love it really all comes

1346
02:04:16.000 --> 02:04:24.560
back to love the two things that late middle ages helping me see is that the hardest thing to

1347
02:04:24.560 --> 02:04:32.080
become is yourself your authentic self and that really all any of us want is to be loved

1348
02:04:33.120 --> 02:04:40.000
like and to be worthy of love and that everything you have will add up to a great pile of nothing

1349
02:04:41.280 --> 02:04:47.280
other than the people who you love and the people who loved you and the experiences you had with

1350
02:04:47.280 --> 02:04:53.440
those people that's it that's all that matters everything else is noise

1351
02:04:53.440 --> 02:05:18.800
chan, thank you thank you always good to see you good to see you cheer

1352
02:05:23.440 --> 02:05:25.440
You