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I have inside information on Jeffrey Epstein and why the US government is reluctant to be more transparent.

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And I know this because when I was working in government meetings were not how shall we tell the public,

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but what shall we tell the public?

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So often the best we can get in our skepticism is to know that we are not being told the truth.

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I think people need to know the truth.

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So put on your seatbelt, I'm going to tell you everything.

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And all senior people in the US government know everything that you and I have discussed here today.

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So you've been behind the scenes with some of the most successful, richest, most powerful people on planet earth,

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but what does it you do, Gavin?

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So I do protective coverage.

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You know, any of the ways that wealthy or prominent people might be targeting.

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For example, the Saudi Arabian government obtained a system which can get into your phone,

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used it on Jeff Bezos.

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So our work was to figure out how it happened.

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Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone?

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So I'll tell you a second, but we're all not as careful as we could be in terms of what we say,

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what we text, and there is absolutely no protection viable for the confidentiality of your phone.

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Do you have any skepticism about that?

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I just have a lot of ignorance to how this whole world works.

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Lucky you.

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But all power centers in human history lie.

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There are some examples of this where it will start telling the truth about something.

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But years later, things like cancer causing asbestos and baby powder,

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100,000 people dying from heart attacks from opioids,

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and we'll see it with mass vaccination.

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So what advice would you give about how to navigate in the world we're living in today?

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To avoid risk threat.

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I've got some core truths.

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So first of all,

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guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins.

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69% of you that listen to the show frequently haven't yet hit the follow button.

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And that follow button is very smart because it means you won't miss the best episodes.

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The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show,

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very prominently in your feed.

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So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes,

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the most rated episodes, I would love you to know.

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And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button.

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But also, the fact that I think what 41% of you have chosen to follow the show that

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listen to it regularly is the reason why we've been able to improve everything.

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It's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make this show better.

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I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to

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this one right now and hit that follow button.

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Thank you so, so, so much.

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Gavin, we have a mutual friend and that mutual friend actually sent me a voice note late last night.

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Here is what the voice note says.

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I'm calling at this crazy hour as I found out that you're interviewing a dear friend of mine,

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Gavin DeBacker, I think, in two days, I don't think I'm a thirteenth.

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He is an extraordinary human being, extraordinary soul.

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He comes from a very tough background.

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But what he's done to move from that background to becoming probably the single greatest security

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expert in the world, he designed the systems that are used to protect the Supreme Court.

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Well, I've met him decades ago and there was a threat happening to a former girlfriend of mine

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and that I was getting threatening letters and he deciphered the letters in microseconds

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at the FBI involved and put a stop to it all.

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It was extraordinary what he did.

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Well, that was Tony Robbins for anyone that didn't recognize.

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I recognize the voice, yeah, for crazy if someone didn't.

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But it got me incredibly, incredibly curious because he said lots of things there that I found

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fascinating. The first one I'm going to start with is he described you helping him with a personal

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situation in his life and I guess this begets the question, what is it you do for people like

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Tony Robbins? What is it you do for famous people for world leaders? What does it you do, Gavin?

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The main function of my company is anti-assassination. So we develop and deploy anti-assassination

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strategies. Under that, under assassination, which you can consider the worst possible outcome,

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our lesser outcomes like other kinds of crimes, destruction of reputation, threats that are

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designed to cause anxiety and fear. We have a division that does assessment of threats

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and management of threats. We have a division that does actual protective coverage. That's

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the biggest division, meaning actual physical protectors fit young, capable people not retired

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ex-cops who are overweight and on their second career. But people who are really trained for

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this specific field, armored vehicles, modifications to homes, basically everything that fits into the

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category of preventing or disrupting efforts to do tissue damage. So we're in the business of

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preventing tissue damage. And who are some of the names that you do this for and have done this

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for over the years? All of the names that I do it for are never spoken by me. So I don't say who

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clients are and I don't say who they aren't because if I say to you someone so isn't a client

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that is information that might reveal that somebody else is or something you heard is true or not

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true. The way I can describe it to you though is to say that if you took the 20 people you would

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assume fit into this category or the 50 most of them are clients. I mean according to the internet

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had you sort of reference certain things before because these people have spoken or you know

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you've been seen in photos. That's right. If a client identifies me or it happens because I

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testify in a court case or something, that's a different animal. It just doesn't come from

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I view myself as sort of like a psychiatrist or a doctor. I wouldn't be the one revealing it.

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And some of those names that have been revealed by others are Jeff Bezos, Elizabeth Taylor,

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Cher Madonna, Barbara Streisand and many many many more from government officials to royalty etc etc.

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What was Tony referring to when he said that you helped him with the situation with his girlfriend

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a threat found out that it wasn't who people thought they were. Right. Surely he was referring

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to a case I'll never reveal and I won't even acknowledge he's a client. You won't even say he's

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a client. I won't say it if you if you have it from some other source. Tony said I understand.

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Your interrogation makes all the sense in the world but I just don't say it. I don't talk about

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clients. There's a bunch of reasons but most of all just absolute confidentiality. I know it's

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weird apologies. But I had you talk about the Jeff Bezos situation. You heard me talk about

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cybersecurity and the vulnerability of phones and the Bezos situation is a little bit different in

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that I was involved very publicly in it but clearly with permission of my client and organized

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with my client. Same thing as when I testify in a court case. There's no secrecy about it. I'm

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doing it but it doesn't mean that I'll then do it everywhere. And so in that case where you did

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have Jeff's permission that the background context was there was a newspaper that was going to publish

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that he was having an affair with I think his current wife who wasn't his wife at the time,

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Lauren Sanchez and you were called upon in that scenario to figure out what was going on and

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you were able to solve that. Yes. What are you able to talk about there? Well, I'll think back to

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what's already been what's already been public and it won't be from me. It won't be anything

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about the client but it will be about the Saudi Arabian government which at that time had just

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obtained a a system called Pegasus III which can get into your phone remotely. It doesn't require

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a click of any kind. I mean, you don't have to acknowledge anything. It can get in. It's called

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a no-click exploit and it could do everything in your phone from 7,000 miles away that you could do

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holding the phone in your hand even if it was off. It could turn on the camera. It could turn on the

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microphone. It exists. It's a very real thing made by the Israelis and the Saudi prince MBS had

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just gotten it and he used it on a group of dissidents around the world. He also used it on

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Jeff Bezos according to the United Nations, according to lots of things that have been public.

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Our work was to figure it out, figure out how it happened in those days. I didn't know what

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Pegasus III was. I didn't know what this system was but the instrumental or perhaps useful thing for

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you and your audience to know is that there is absolutely no protection viable for the confidentiality

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of your phone if a government wants you. The reason I say there's no stopping it is that even when

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Apple puts out a new solution which they do an update that breaks some particular exploit,

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thousands of people around the world immediately start working on the next exploit. If I said to

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you, here's a phone and we've modified it and it's great. Mr. President, here you can use this phone

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for your confidential conversations in a month. It won't work anymore and so I'm able to tell

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clients and friends and now you and your audience there are a lot of things being offered for sale

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that supposedly protect the confidentiality of your phone calls for example or your text. Nothing

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will work reliably. There is no solution to that problem that is reliable. Nothing.

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There is their devices sold. There's all variety of things but the reality is that even if

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something worked, even if I said, here's this cool new such-and-such phone that will protect you.

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It'll only protect you for a while because there's a constant effort to improve the exploits

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and also I have to say people are somewhat reluctant and maybe even lazy. I'll put myself on the

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list and I'll put you on the list without even knowing you. We're all not as careful as we could be

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in terms of what we say, what we text and I have a dear friend and client who every text

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and every email that he sends also goes to his executive assistant and everybody knows it and

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what happens is it controls and influences his behavior so when you send me that off-color joke

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that I wouldn't want to see on television, he responds differently. He doesn't say, oh that's

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great and add another topping line on top of it because he knows that his assistant in the other

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room is seeing that and so the best we can all do is be watchful what we say and have no pretense

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of privacy or confidentiality because it simply does not exist period. The US government got into

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the phones of all of our allies, the Prime Ministers, Chancellor of West Germany, Prime Minister of

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England, President of France. This is a game that's going on all the time and privacy is just not

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part of the new world. Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone?

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Well, again, from what's been public, the founder of Amazon was also the owner of the Washington

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Post and the Saudis had killed Khashoggi who was a journalist for the Washington Post and the

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Washington Post then started putting out an Arabic edition that didn't feel good for the Saudis

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and then they really went after the, I'll call him ahead of state, he's the prince but

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his father was alive and was actually the head of state but they really went after MBS.

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I think Basis was a kind of adversary in that regard. Additionally, the Saudi sovereign fund

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developed an Amazon competitor called something like Noom or something like that and so they were

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concerned about that and they were also doing deals with Amazon and so they could get economic

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advantage by seeing what the various executives are texting to each other. So there was a lot of moving

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parts to that so all these things I've just shared with you with high stakes matters going on around

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the time that Khashoggi was killed and that the western countries of the world were

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objecting to this assassination team of his going around and killing people and getting

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into their phones. In early 2019, Jeff Bezos publicly accused the US tabloid, the National

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Enquirer of attempting to blackmail and extort him by threatening to publish intimate photos including

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what he described as a nude below the belt selfie of him and his then partner Lauren Sanchez.

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Bezos wrote a blog post saying AMI emailed his lawyer and security advisor Gavin DeBeckas

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counsel threatening to publish personal photos and texts unless he and his team publicly stated

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that the tabloid's coverage of him was not politically motivated. Yeah, what they wanted me to do

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the Enquirer and they negotiated with me and my lawyer over this that I was to go public and say

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two things. I was to say it was not politically motivated and it was not influenced by outside

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actors, IE the Saudis, and that there was no hacking involved. My question was why the hell do

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you want me to say that those two things specifically? And I already knew the answer, of course,

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because there was outside influence and there was hacking. Their request for me was so strange

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that we didn't go along with it. Bezos ultimately wrote a medium post talking about it publicly

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and saying, hey, if I can't stand up to this, then where is a regular person? And ultimately,

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there's pictures whenever published. Yeah, I won't even comment on whether those pictures exist

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because they were doing a fascinating thing by the way. They were sort of like selling you land

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in Florida that's marshland and doesn't exist. They were doing an extortion on a thing they

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didn't even have, right? So it's kind of a double crime. It's an extortion and fraud.

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It's interesting, we start talking here about digital comms and that type of security with

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everything that's going on at this exact moment in time with all these Epstein files. And there's

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a big conversation because now we can see 3,000,000 documents and many of them are emails that people

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have sent at different times, some of the most famous people in the world have sent emails

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to Epstein and now those are all out there in the public to see. I wonder what your take was

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and all of this stuff. You must be watching this stuff from through the lens that you've

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not built your career and you must have an interesting opinion. Some of it, I don't talk about

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because I have a fair amount of inside information and I'm just watchful about not getting near the

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line, but I mean, inside information. I mean information that I might have gotten from

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I'm characterizing it carefully that I might have gotten from government agencies that are clients

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or that I might have gotten because clients were implicated. Like I learned today, for example,

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this morning on the way over here, that I'm in the Epstein files. Oh, really?

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And here's the way I'm in there is that someone sent Epstein an article that I wrote called

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fooling ourselves into war. And so somebody sent that article, which is an article I really like,

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by the way, published in Huffington Post at the time and they sent that to Epstein. So that's

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an example of being in the Epstein files and yet obviously never having that Epstein.

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But I have a few clients who and friends who the Epstein group made approaches on and failed,

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meaning they tried to get them and failed. I'll give you one story without naming the person,

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of course. He goes to meet with Epstein in New York to ask for money for a charity.

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And Epstein is perceived as this big billionaire, which he was not, by the way, I'll tell you

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in a second. And Epstein is in a robe and they're across the desk just like you and I are.

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And Epstein says, hey, they're finishing the meeting. He says, hey, I'm going to get a massage

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hence my robe. You want to get a massage. And through the hallway, my friend can see a massage table

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and a room and a very cute girl who's the massage therapist, dressed like a massage therapist.

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And so he happened to say no. In fact, interestingly, he happens to not like massage,

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which is itself, you know, a lot of people would say yes and might even think it would improve my

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relationship with this guy, Jeffrey Epstein, who I perceive as this rich guy that I'm trying to get

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money from my charity. Had that happened, what a different world for that person, what a different

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life. Because in that room is cameras and then eventually audio didn't start off with audio,

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but audio was added later. And then you're getting a hand job if I'm allowed to say hand job from

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somebody who you don't even think about their age, but turns out to be 17. And you are in the

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world of trouble for the rest of your life. And that's a big piece of what was going on with Epstein

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with cameras in that apartment in New York and eventually audio cameras and eventually audio

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at the island might take on it. And certainly my public take is that there was a profound

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blackmail operation going on to the benefit of probably more than one government, but at least one

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government. And when I said a moment ago, he wasn't a billionaire, he wasn't a billionaire.

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For one thing, his earning path is highly suspect. I first tell you what he was. What he was is a

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construct. He's a created construct, money, wealth, private jet, private island, fun, not married,

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young girls, lots of things. So he was a construct, the money, 500 million dollars of money came from

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less Wexner, who's a wealthy guy who owns or owned, I don't know what he's doing now, a victorious

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secret big donated to the state of Israel. And 500 million dollars was transferred to Epstein

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along with power of attorney to use it and invest it in the ways he saw fit quite an unusual,

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you know, I'm mildly wealthy, but I'm not sending you 500 million dollars. I'll tell you that.

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The idea that you're doing this is itself extraordinary, but it was probably the funding

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mechanism for this construct. While it's a real name, Jeffrey Epstein, and he has a real birth

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certificate and grew up in a real way, the picture that is presented to the world is not authentic.

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It is not accurate to who he was. And the more you dig into this story, which of course people

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doing so much now because of these three million documents so far and videos by the way and

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photographs, there's a lot of material there. It's very interesting to people right now and more

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to be learned, but what was actually going on, why in the world would anybody say, well,

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there are national security implications to some of this content? That's why some things are

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redacted. What would that be? Why would the prosecutor who prosecuted him in Florida and provided

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one of the most unusual plea bargain deals in world history and certainly unique in American

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history, which is imagine I've got you on a US attorney. I've got you on some crime and you say,

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okay, I'm going to plead guilty. I'm going to serve my time, but please let my accountant go and

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please don't prosecute my wife because all she did was deliver the stuff and she didn't

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it wasn't involved in anything. And so those are called unindicted co-conspirators. So I make a

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deal with you and I say, okay, you go to jail for the eight months and we will leave the unindicted

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co-conspirators unindicted. We won't prosecute your wife, your son, your accountant or what have you.

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That's a very normal process. It's a bargaining process basically. However, in the Epstein case,

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the US attorney gave him a deal that said that we would not prosecute unnamed co-conspirators.

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Holy shit. Who is that? Who's unnamed co-conspirators? Unnamed co-conspirators could be 50 people.

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It could be 75 people. The guy who gave that sweetheart deal became the secretary of labor. He was

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at that time, the US attorney for Florida. He was asked, why did you give that sweetheart

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deal? Because the deal's ridiculous unnamed co-conspirators will be exempt from prosecution.

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And he said, I was told he belonged to intelligence. And then he had to resign because of this.

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There was a lot going on with Epstein, the person who, I mean, there's so much of this,

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but the person who sort of brought Epstein into the world of power and got him his job at,

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I think Morgan Stanley, I could have that wrong, but one of those big finance companies

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was William Barr's father. William Barr was the attorney general, who was the US attorney general

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when Epstein was killed or died in prison, depending on your choice of reality. So there's so much

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there, but I won't be the first guest, Stephen, that you've had that says that it was an intelligence

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operation. Why the US government is reluctant to be more transparent. Some of it is national security.

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Some of it is, let's imagine an ally of ours is involved in that operation. So there's a

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reluctance and there's a question, it's a little bit like UFOs. Could the public handle it?

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Is the question that's always asked in these cases, meaning could the public handle it if, for

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example, the UK was running an intelligence operation inside the United States to control senators

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and congressmen and powerful executives and powerful figures and scientists. Could we handle it?

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Could the US public handle it? Might take personally? Absolutely, yes. So you believe that he was

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an intelligence asset, and it sounds like you believe he was an intelligence asset potentially by

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a US ally. Yes. So who is that ally? Israel. You believe that Epstein was an Israel

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intelligence asset? Yes, yes, I do. And and Elaine Maxwell just for additional background,

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but everybody can find it. Her father was an Israeli intelligence asset who was so revered.

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His funeral ceremony was held in Israel, was attended by the Prime Minister, by I think the last

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four or five, by every living head of Mossad attended, and there were words used in Eulogy's

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like he did things for Israel that the world will never know about. There's a lot of good connection

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there and a lot of good connective tissue, some of which I've shared with you because it's

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public and some of which I'm not sharing, but that is that is indeed what I believe. Yes,

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and that's just me, by the way, you might already be there and you certainly had another guest

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sit here and and former CIA guy, Kirakau, how do you say his last name? Yeah. Am I close?

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You're close. It's closer than I would get. And he was point blank in saying Israel.

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So there's no there's no direct evidence, but what people are essentially doing is putting

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the pieces together to make a picture. There is direct evidence. There's just not direct evidence

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I'm sharing at this moment, but there's there's plenty of evidence that it has been

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public already, some of which I've shared. I mean, I could I could do it for 40 minutes, but

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everybody can just go to chat GPT. And you know, if you ask chat GPT, make the best case for,

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it's a good thing for viewers to remember, make the best case for dot dot dot whatever it is.

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If you ask, the first answer you get if you ask a straight question will always be the official

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narrative. I've done exactly that. As you said it, I asked chat GPT, make the best case for

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Epstein being in Israel spy. Here is what it said. The case that Jeffrey Epstein

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functioned as an Israeli intelligence asset rests on a pattern alignment rather than direct proof.

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He ran a sexual sexual compromise operation resembling known intelligence,

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compromise, trade craft, compromise. Yeah, like a direction where that means we compromise you.

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Had wealth and access far beyond his formal career and operated with unusual legal protection

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for years. His close partnership with Glenn Maxwell, whose father had documented intelligence

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ties fuel suspicion as does reporting by journalists who say Epstein's activities were

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discussed in intelligence adjacent circles. The cameras and the microphones hidden in his apartment

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and his home. How do we know they were there and why? Well, how I know they were there is a little

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bit different from how everybody knows they were there. And I don't know enough about the entire

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history of the FBI piece, but I'll tell you a funny part of the FBI piece when they went to

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execute a search warrant at that apartment after his more recent arrest. They found and even

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photographed a bunch of CD-ROMs or discs of some kind that were labeled, but they didn't take them.

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They said, we'll get a warrant and we'll be back for those. And they came back after a mere

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six days. And it was all gone. So where it is, I don't know. Does the US government have it? Does

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somebody else have it? I just don't know the answer. But I know from very direct information regarding

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the island and the apartment. I don't know about New Mexico. I just don't happen to know

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another house that he owned that there were cameras and then eventually audio audio was added.

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Oh, also testimony, by the way, pardon me, testimony from girls who said, girls who worked there

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and visited there a lot, who said that in a small room to the right of the front door

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was a whole thing of videos where the recording was done. And can you explain to me why recording

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videos and audio of people getting those kinds of doing those kinds of things would be a useful

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asset for this foreign adversary to have? Sure. Blackmail is not always done by calling you up and

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saying, hey, Steven, I'm going to hurt you in the following way if you don't do a B or C.

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The other version is far better, which is even alluded to in some of the now released material,

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which is he calls and he says, Steven, I've got terrible news. Do you remember you had that massage

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from Cindy? You know, that girl said, oh, yeah, yeah, remember she recorded something. She had

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something in her bag. She made a recording and I got worse news. Steven, the girl's 16 and a half.

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And now, by the way, you are stomach drops, diarrhea. You are in a world of stress right now,

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just hearing that. And he instead of being your blackmailer becomes your rescuer. He says, I can

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handle it. I can handle it. I can handle it. She's got the recordings. I don't know where they are,

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but I can handle it. I can handle it. I can handle it. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry.

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And he owns you now forever. If you were involved in a naked experience with someone who's under

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age and there's a video of it and audio of it as well, you will do anything that you are asked to do

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that is within reason. Very few people would have the character and the stamina to do what you

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described Bezos doing, which is that he wrote a public letter saying a very unusual thing happened

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to me the other day. I'm being blackmailed by the National Enquirer. And here's what they said.

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That's a very, very rare. And so, you know, a senator, a congressman, he owned a lot of people.

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Do you have any skepticism about that? I don't have skepticism. I just have a lot of ignorance to

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how this whole world works. Lucky you. And I just have a lot of ignorance to like, you know,

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because you hear about these things in almost like movies and it appears that we're all kind of

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witnessing something we might have regulated just to the movies happened before our eyes.

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And even when, you know, I saw some of the emails coming up on my feed of things that Epstein had

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emailed people, he seemed to be continually inviting people to hang out with him. Sure.

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In a way, that is quite a typical. Now, maybe I'm just an introvert, but I'm not, he was like

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aggressive in his comms to people saying, come and hang out with me. I'm doing this thing. This

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didn't apply. He come to my island, you in the area. And he was succeeding in getting a lot of

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people to come and visit his, his homes and his island. And yeah, it's, uh, by the way, Steven,

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in the circumstance you are in today, you might well have heard from from Jeffrey Epstein.

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You might well have had somebody who knows you who says, Hey, there's this guy in New York,

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loves your show, uh, just terrific. And, and all of a sudden, you're getting that invitation.

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And you're getting that invitation through someone you know and kind of like, like Joe Rogan did.

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I don't know, but like so many people. Well, and Joe Rogan said it. Oh, if he's been public about it,

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I'm just not going to be able to say it, but I got it. Oh, okay. Uh, Joe Rogan publicly last week said

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that, and it's in the files that a former guest, I think it was Lawrence Kraus of his show invited

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him to come and meet Jeffrey Epstein. And the emails show that Jeffrey Epstein was trying to get

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Lawrence to bring Joe Rogan in. Joe Rogan said, like, absolutely, absolutely, but this was Joe Rogan's

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where it said, absolutely if I cannot. Right. I was creeped out about it and never went and was never

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involved. Well, the point I was just making is that in your present circumstance with the,

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you know, enormous audience and the reach of this show and all your work to small videos, etc.

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Of course, you're a terrific person because now I can call you up and say, uh, hey, we have this

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person on or I can say, Hey, will you be really skeptical about this topic? And will you say,

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I don't believe it? And will you say, I think it's wrong? Or will you say, I think it's anti-Semitism?

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Or will you, will you say such and such? And brother, you will. The moment where I started to,

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you know, really understand the black male angle, um, was when I started reading some of the

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particular emails that Epstein had sent to himself, um, one in particular where he sent himself

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an email regarding Bill Gates. He's alleging that Bill Gates has slept with. He's sending

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himself an email, alleging that Bill Gates has slept with someone, some, some Russian

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prostitute and that he got an STD and extramarital affair, all of these allegations. And when I read

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that email, um, then I thought, Oh, you know, he was about, he was a black male, um, he was definitely

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a black male and he's collected all these rich and famous people and he has them in his pocket now.

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Just to close off then on this point of Epstein before we move on, you said they've released

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some of the files and you said they hadn't released other files. Yes. And you have implied that

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was because they basically can't release these other files. Well, I don't, I don't know what,

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I think more is coming. I think more will be released, but there are certainly files including

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files even right now, even yesterday, though there's a law, uh, as you may know, Congress voted

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for a law to release everything unredacted. Um, there's still a lot of redacted stuff. So there's

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more to come and, uh, will some be redacted? Sure. Is anybody gonna sit here like I did today and

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say, hi, I'm the secretary of blah, blah, blah. And let me just tell you what was really going on.

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You know, I'm the head of the CIA. Let me tell you what was really going on. Not likely. But Trump

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knows. He knows who Jeffrey Jeffrey Epstein really was. I would say all senior people in the US

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government and, and many, many people in general know everything that you and I have discussed here

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today. No secret. By the way, what do you think? Let's imagine somebody came forward and said,

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this country described as our greatest ally. I would say our greatest ally is the UK,

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based on, on history. But, uh, is yours an important ally in the Middle East and it's a,

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it's a democracy and it's more of a Western government. I get it. Um, but what do you think? The,

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country comes out and somebody officially says, okay, let me tell you what was going on.

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Do you think the American public can handle it? I think they either way now deserve to know

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the truth. Whether they can handle it or not is probably secondary to whether they, I think people

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need to know the truth. I think like the problem is people have been like partially traumatized

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by all of this stuff. And so now, I think the remedy is full transparency. I agree. And by the

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way, uh, this is close because we, we got a lot of information, whereas, you know, five weeks ago,

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or eight weeks ago, people were saying, oh, there's nothing more. That's it. That's all there is.

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I mean, this is a big step. And I think it's a big step, as big a step toward transparency,

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as, uh, probably as I've seen in my lifetime by a government, the exception would be,

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it's not a government what Elon did after buying Twitter, the release of the Twitter files. That

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was a very impressive thing of letting three journalists come in and just go through everything.

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I think it would be awesome if the US government ever governments don't do this very often. But if

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they ever said, okay, everybody put on your seat belt. I'm going to tell you exactly what happened

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with the JFK assassination or exactly what happened with the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy

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Senator Robert F. Kennedy when he ran for president. There are some examples of this in US

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history where it feels like after about 25 years, we'll start telling the truth about something.

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50 years ago, Johnson and Johnson went to, uh, to the FDA and they said, look, our baby powder,

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you know, that stuff that you put on the baby and you breathe and the mother breathes. Well,

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it's got asbestos in it and it causes cancer. And the FDA said, well, thanks for bringing this

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to our attention. We'll begin to study how much asbestos is an allowable amount. Now,

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they never considered zero, which is what I'd want on my baby or you'd want on your baby.

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And they began to study them. Then they studied for a while. They studied for a while in low and

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behold, 40 years had gone by and they hadn't come out with a ruling to say there shouldn't be any

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asbestos in Johnson and Johnson baby powder. When did they come out with that ruling, by the way?

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Last year, end of 2024 after 52 years. So at the beginning, the government is saying asbestos,

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no, what are you talking about? Agent Orange, the same story. Agent Orange, a material used in

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Vietnam for defoliation, hurt people, killed people and cause birth defects in their kids,

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including American soldiers, lots of them. The government knew it. They had tested it on 40 lab

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mice and lab mice don't have a good life generally anyway. They don't have good life expectancy.

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But in this case, 38 died within five days. What did the government do with that information? Oh,

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put that in a top secret file and get rid of that. And then it sits for a long, long time and the

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Institute of Medicine says Agent Orange hurting people. What are you talking about? No. And they lie

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and they lie and they lie. And then finally, 20, 25 years later, okay. Yeah, sorry, we were wrong.

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It does cause birth defects. You see that same story with breast implants, silicon breast implants.

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You see that same story with baby formula, with baby food, which has arsenic in it. I don't

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want any arsenic in baby food. But deny, deny, deny, deny. And we'll see it with mass vaccination.

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Because after some years, there will be, okay, yes, there is a good chance that it causes

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myocarditis already been admitted by the way. Pericarditis, cancer in young people, it was a bad

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product. Sorry, but they won't do it a year away from a thing and they obviously, as we can see

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every day, they won't do it five years away. It's very easy to see and to locate when the US

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government or any power center, this is, I'm an American, I'm all for America, but all power centers

388
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in human history lie. Knowing that they are lying does not tell you the truth, however,

389
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:24.640
meaning knowing that Oswald did not act alone as a shooter from the sixth floor of the Texas

390
00:34:24.640 --> 00:34:30.160
Book Depository. If he was a shooter at all, knowing that does not tell you who was the shooter.

391
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:36.800
So often the best we can get in our skepticism is to know that we are not being told the truth.

392
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:41.760
When I grew up, I felt, I feel like I was very naive to the nature of how the world really operates.

393
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:46.800
And the more I've done podcasts and frankly, you know, you get invited to interesting things and

394
00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:50.640
you meet like rich people and famous people and billionaires and I went to Davos this year,

395
00:34:50.640 --> 00:34:54.960
which I think people think makes me some kind of like, I don't know, I wasn't. If the Illuminaria

396
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:58.800
at Davos, they didn't invite me into that room. But I got to see like really powerful people and

397
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:02.960
world leaders and all those kinds of things. And I've sat here and interviewed so many CIA spies and

398
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:10.240
I've learned that there are things going on out of plain sight. So the version of reality that

399
00:35:10.240 --> 00:35:15.280
the average person has as they go through their life, how has the work you've done over the last

400
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.920
several decades of your career shifted your belief about the version of reality that actually

401
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:25.440
exists. How they different. So I can answer it easily because I was just like you. I would say I

402
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:30.240
was naive. And in fact, by the way, I want to quickly acknowledge that I'm probably naive today,

403
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:35.600
even with what you've heard, because there may be a level above the level above the level above

404
00:35:35.600 --> 00:35:41.120
that I'm not seeing or I'm choosing not to see. I can tell you the exact evolution for me not

405
00:35:41.120 --> 00:35:47.280
dissimilar to you. I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I believe the courts will always come up with a

406
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:53.520
fair decision. I believe that the IRS will only collect money and destroy people with good reason

407
00:35:53.520 --> 00:35:58.880
and they won't do it with bad reason. I believed everything. And a lot of it right up until COVID,

408
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:04.880
by the way, right up until seeing what went on with both mass vaccination and the mass control

409
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:12.560
through fear. Here's what I want to tell you I've learned. It's not that unusual, I think.

410
00:36:12.560 --> 00:36:18.400
I think it's easy to embrace, which is that our human beings the same as they were a thousand years

411
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:23.200
ago. Our human beings the same as they were in Caesar's time. What did Caesar do, by the way?

412
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:30.720
A Caesar, pick a Roman emperor, whatever the fuck they wanted to do. They had sex with who and what

413
00:36:30.720 --> 00:36:36.080
they wanted eight years old, 10 years old boy, girl, whatever it may be, even in King Farouk's time in

414
00:36:36.080 --> 00:36:41.120
Egypt, one of the last kings of Egypt. If you were a house guest, they'd say to you, you know,

415
00:36:41.200 --> 00:36:44.320
we're going to have dinner at six. We can send somebody to your room. Do you want a young boy or

416
00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:51.120
a young girl? No, no shame to it. No, no problem whatsoever. Rich and powerful people, like the ones

417
00:36:51.120 --> 00:36:56.640
you were describing at Davos, often go from I already have all the money. I've already had all the

418
00:36:56.640 --> 00:37:01.600
fame. I've already had all the influence. What do I want to do now? And sometimes they want to

419
00:37:01.600 --> 00:37:06.640
do forbidden things. Have an affair. Keep a girl in an apartment. These are easy, right?

420
00:37:07.520 --> 00:37:14.400
Cheat on my wife. These are easy still. 14-year-old girl. Uh-oh. Not getting so easy anymore,

421
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:18.720
but I've done all the other stuff. And that's what the Epstein piece appeals to, which is the

422
00:37:18.720 --> 00:37:25.200
forbidden. I want to be very concise in answering this question about what changed in terms of my

423
00:37:25.200 --> 00:37:29.760
view. How I've gotten started where I started. First of all, I worked in government, worked in

424
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:34.720
the Reagan administration. I lied. I did things that were lies that were deceitful several times in

425
00:37:34.720 --> 00:37:41.600
my career. I can give you examples in a minute if you want. But to make a prosecution work, I reached

426
00:37:41.600 --> 00:37:49.040
a bit to get somebody, some bad guy who was trying to kill a client prosecuted or in custody for

427
00:37:49.040 --> 00:37:55.520
a longer period of time. I was in many meetings where the questions were this thing happened.

428
00:37:56.240 --> 00:38:02.880
Not how shall we tell the public, but what shall we tell the public? How shall we spend this thing?

429
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:10.160
This is the norm in every corporate boardroom in America. It's not, oh, there's a cancer causing

430
00:38:10.160 --> 00:38:14.400
asbestos in the baby pattern. I guess we better let everybody know. That's not the meeting.

431
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:20.480
The meeting is, let's notify the FDA and say it's under study. And so if we get asked, we'll get

432
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:24.160
through this thing. Who goes to jail? By the way, in these corporations for the shit they do.

433
00:38:25.120 --> 00:38:30.400
Opioids, et cetera. My God, a hundred thousand people dying from heart attacks from a pain pill,

434
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:37.440
for example, viox for God's sake. It's unbelievable and nobody gets in trouble.

435
00:38:38.720 --> 00:38:43.280
Companies are fined. Do you know what the fines mean to these companies? In that new book,

436
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:49.280
I gave you forbidden facts. I lay out what all the pharma companies have been fined criminally,

437
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:54.320
what it cost them and what they made nonetheless. And of course, they made the right decision

438
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:58.960
because financially they did very well. But I want to get to the concise part. Look at world

439
00:38:59.040 --> 00:39:05.920
history as a pie chart, right? The entire thing is tyranny as a government method,

440
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:12.560
as a control method. Just a tiny sliver is a representative democracy, a little bit starting

441
00:39:12.560 --> 00:39:19.040
in Greece, Western Europe, the United States, tiny sliver. So our norm Stephen is tyranny.

442
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:24.640
That is the norm for human beings. And what happens to that tiny sliver that I'm describing,

443
00:39:24.640 --> 00:39:29.040
that tiny sliver always moves toward totalitarianism. What does that mean?

444
00:39:29.040 --> 00:39:34.800
It means that the representative democracy we have, let's say in the UK, which is pretty stressed

445
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:41.040
right now in terms of freedom of speech, or in the United States, moves toward totalitarianism

446
00:39:41.040 --> 00:39:48.160
in that it says it starts with, we pass a law. And if the US Constitution says,

447
00:39:48.240 --> 00:39:54.080
if there isn't a law prohibiting it, you can do it. And for government, it says,

448
00:39:54.080 --> 00:40:00.080
if there isn't a law allowing it, you cannot do it. That's the US Constitution. That's the US

449
00:40:00.080 --> 00:40:07.040
method. Well, look what it's become. A law gets passed and then regulators, unelected officials go

450
00:40:07.040 --> 00:40:11.680
fucking nuts on interpreting that law the way they want to and applying it the way they want to.

451
00:40:12.160 --> 00:40:18.640
And so the it moves toward totalitarianism. Forty thousand new laws passed in the United

452
00:40:18.640 --> 00:40:24.960
States every year. How many rescinded almost none? So where are we now? Here in the United States,

453
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:29.680
where we both are, or in the UK, where are we in the arc of history? Because it kind of does seem

454
00:40:29.680 --> 00:40:34.400
to move in sort of cycles. Now, the way if you're talking about where are we now like Western

455
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:42.880
society or the US, empire in decline. And first of all, is it an empire? Obviously, right? We have

456
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:50.160
seven hundred and sixty military bases overseas, seven hundred and sixty. We have a larger budget for

457
00:40:50.160 --> 00:40:56.080
what we call defense now called war since Trump has changed the name to Department of War more

458
00:40:56.080 --> 00:41:02.800
accurately. We have a larger budget than every other country in the world combined for military

459
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:08.960
spending. How many overseas bases does China have? I think it's one. Now, I'm not saying China's

460
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:13.040
all lovely. I'm just saying they have a different method. They have a method closer to what we had

461
00:41:13.040 --> 00:41:18.240
in the sixties, which was to come in with with beneficial help. We'll redo your roads, etc., etc.

462
00:41:18.240 --> 00:41:24.880
So we're an empire and we're an empire in decline. And a moment ago when I said that that tyranny is

463
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:31.680
the normal state of affairs for how people are governed, how is it exercised through fear?

464
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:38.800
Always through fear. Fear is the method that causes division. And division is the fuel of power,

465
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:44.080
meaning you want the population to be divided. You want the left and the right. You want the

466
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:49.680
trumpers and the Democrats and the forever trumpers and the never trumpers.

467
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:57.440
Division is the fuel that all world leaders relish. I give you the example in the cleanest terms.

468
00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:01.840
The king and the queen look over the castle wall. And when they see their

469
00:42:03.120 --> 00:42:09.600
subjects fighting, they high five each other. Because if they're fighting with each other,

470
00:42:09.600 --> 00:42:14.400
they're not coming over the wall. And there's always a wall. But if they're not fighting with each

471
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:20.000
other, that's a big problem. Because then they're coming over the wall. Because everybody knows

472
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:25.520
in their heart, wait a minute, these fuckers are living in absolute luxury. While I can't afford

473
00:42:25.600 --> 00:42:35.040
to feed my kids, their motorcades and today and in those days, they're beautiful ornate wagons pulled

474
00:42:35.040 --> 00:42:41.680
by a bunch of horses go by and splatter mud on me in the street. What really is the difference?

475
00:42:41.680 --> 00:42:47.040
I mean, royalty is such a bullshit scam. So what happens to the Western world if we're in a

476
00:42:47.040 --> 00:42:51.760
declining empire? I give you the optimistic version. Because I have a dear friend

477
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:56.480
happens to live in Cape Town, who helps me with this sometimes. Because like anybody,

478
00:42:56.480 --> 00:43:03.840
when I look a lot at what happens, I can get discouraged. I can get cynical. It's not a good

479
00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:08.720
place to live. I think Tony, maybe even he said it on your show, Tony Robbins, which is

480
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:15.760
that what you focus on will determine the quality of your life. So I can focus on the pharma

481
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:20.880
companies and all the shit they're doing or I can focus on the beauty of nature and spend more

482
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:25.680
time in nature and spend more time with my kids, et cetera. So my optimistic answer, which comes

483
00:43:25.680 --> 00:43:34.080
from a dear friend Nick Hudson in Cape Town, is that even if empires decay, and social decay is

484
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:40.400
outside this studio. It's in London. It's in New York. It's in Los Angeles. It's in Seattle. It's

485
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:46.320
important. It's unavoidable. Take a drive in Los Angeles. You know it. Every freeway on ramp.

486
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:52.080
Not some. Every single one of them has tents underneath it with people living there. That is not

487
00:43:52.080 --> 00:43:58.800
good news. And so, but here's the good news part of it. The optimistic part of it is that survival

488
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:04.640
and thriving always prevails, and it does not rely on these systems, meaning you are who you are

489
00:44:05.200 --> 00:44:10.240
as a in the spiritual sense or in the scientific sense, whatever way you want to look at yourself

490
00:44:10.240 --> 00:44:15.360
as a as a collection of energy that doesn't need that body, by the way. Right? The energy doesn't

491
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:20.400
go anywhere when that body is done, meaning it's the energy is still there. It's not destructible.

492
00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:29.280
And so it's indestructible. So you are this being, this awareness, this consciousness. And if

493
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:35.680
around us, when we go outside here today, all the buildings are gone and social decay has accelerated,

494
00:44:35.680 --> 00:44:41.360
are we going to be okay? And the answer is yes, what happens? Now we're living in the forest,

495
00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:45.360
and now I say, Stephen, you're pretty good at carpentry, right? Come join us. And you say,

496
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:49.840
you're good at planning sweet potatoes. We need some of that. Let's do that. And small

497
00:44:50.720 --> 00:44:58.240
populations of people begin again, commence again, even after nuclear war, after a variety of things.

498
00:44:58.240 --> 00:45:06.080
And I know it's crazy to some people, but I take my my hope and my optimism from that fact,

499
00:45:06.080 --> 00:45:12.480
which is that it doesn't rely upon the electricity working. It doesn't rely upon the plumbing

500
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:18.320
working and the sewage system working. But eventually, there's enough of the earth, natural earth,

501
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:23.680
for us to do what has happened before, which is start again, give you a very fast aspect of this.

502
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:29.840
Thousand years ago, there's a thousand little governments, there's shogans in Japan,

503
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:35.600
there's villages, there's a guy has 300 people and he's the chief. Then it becomes what it

504
00:45:35.600 --> 00:45:41.760
was in your life and my life, which is about 190 countries. But those 190 countries are really

505
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:49.600
about five power centers. There's NATO, there's Brexit, there's the oil producing countries,

506
00:45:49.600 --> 00:45:56.960
and eventually that five power centers will come to two power centers. The West, US,

507
00:45:56.960 --> 00:46:01.360
and China is my prediction, but it'll be somebody else's prediction can do it differently. And then

508
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:06.080
those two fuckers are standing in a room together and one has to kill the other. That's the course

509
00:46:06.080 --> 00:46:11.200
of history. That's how it goes. That's how it goes in every geographical area in history, which is

510
00:46:11.200 --> 00:46:16.160
we've got 30 villages. And if I can find your village, we'll take the women, we'll take the children

511
00:46:16.160 --> 00:46:22.000
and we'll kill the men. And it's just a matter of math. How many of there are of you and how many

512
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:26.800
are there of our group? It's, I think it's somewhat inconceivable, especially for people of my

513
00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:32.160
generation to think that the US is at some point going to be at war with China. Because we've

514
00:46:32.160 --> 00:46:38.000
never experienced a world war, but because the stakes are now so high with nuclear weapons,

515
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:45.200
a war theoretically wouldn't be like previous wars. It would be catastrophic. So it's an

516
00:46:45.200 --> 00:46:50.880
imaginable. Some people say now nuclear weapons have now stopped us from getting into

517
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:54.800
world war three as easily, and if it won't happen. Yeah, some people believe in that general

518
00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:59.520
concept of mutually assured destruction, which is that neither side will do it. But you said it's

519
00:46:59.520 --> 00:47:06.560
almost impossible for you to imagine or words to that effect. I want to help you with that

520
00:47:06.560 --> 00:47:13.680
imagining. And it goes like this, we are currently at war with Russia. We are not supporting the

521
00:47:13.680 --> 00:47:20.640
war in Ukraine only. We are at war with Russia because we are providing satellite information,

522
00:47:20.640 --> 00:47:27.280
electronic warfare strategies, drone strategies, providing targeting information. And that is

523
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:34.400
war today. That is war. War is not just the guys on the battlefield with rifles. That's the

524
00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:40.640
low end element. The high end element is supersonic missiles, which Russia has. And the high end

525
00:47:40.640 --> 00:47:46.880
element is Intel and satellite technology and the wide variety of things that are going on. Some of

526
00:47:47.040 --> 00:47:52.800
which aren't even in the news, by the way, that go on in Russia and they say, oh shit, or that go

527
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:58.480
on in Ukraine and they say, oh shit, the Russians have figured out that thing. But the US is so far

528
00:47:58.480 --> 00:48:04.400
beyond other countries in the world in terms of technology. And so that is war with Russia.

529
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:10.480
And you could say that our war with North Vietnam was war with China. But now there's just no

530
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:15.440
question about it. So that was a long answer, Stephen, to say, I want to get you your imagination

531
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:21.440
closer. We're already at war with Russia. There's a phase a lot of companies here where they're

532
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:25.280
no longer doing the most important thing, which is selling and they get really bogged down with

533
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admin. And it's often something that creeps up slowly and you don't really notice until it's

534
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537
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539
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541
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549
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550
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551
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552
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553
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Stephen. It will be a game change a few. Speaking of crazy weapons, I was reading about a story where

559
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:40.800
you did a tour with the CIA and they showed you a mechanical dragonfly with a battery. What

560
00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:47.200
did they show you? Well, I've had a lot to do with the agency that's been public over the years.

561
00:50:47.200 --> 00:50:52.560
And I was giving a talk and then afterwards they took me on a tour to a CIA museum. They showed me

562
00:50:52.560 --> 00:50:57.360
a lot of things. Oh, here's the helmet that was worn by that pilot who was shot down over Russia

563
00:50:57.360 --> 00:51:02.720
named Powers. All kinds of interesting memorabilia. And one of them was a little dragonfly,

564
00:51:02.720 --> 00:51:09.120
the size of a dragonfly. And it was mechanical. And I looked at it real closely and thought,

565
00:51:09.120 --> 00:51:13.680
wow, that's really fantastic. It's very interesting. And he said, you don't have any questions at all.

566
00:51:13.680 --> 00:51:19.600
I said, no, I mean, I get it. And he said, why don't you ask me when it was built? And I said,

567
00:51:19.600 --> 00:51:29.200
okay, when was it built? 1967. In 1967, before we had any miniaturized electronics or motorization,

568
00:51:29.200 --> 00:51:34.880
the CIA had built that little thing. And it was a little camera that would fly around in here

569
00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:41.920
as a dragonfly. And then fly home. And I don't know how many pictures it held. But it's an

570
00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:46.800
interesting piece I want to share with you about AI, which is people wonder, how sophisticated

571
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:56.080
is AI? And where is it? My belief is that everything we have access to, like AI, we probably have

572
00:51:56.080 --> 00:52:01.600
something that the US intelligence had 10 years ago. We're probably dealing with something

573
00:52:01.600 --> 00:52:06.240
quite old already. I'm just looking at the picture of this dragonfly. I didn't even know it was

574
00:52:06.240 --> 00:52:12.560
public. That's the fucker. There it is. This little thing here. Yeah. You know, this was made,

575
00:52:12.560 --> 00:52:18.880
as you say, 50 years ago. So one can only imagine the type of technology they have now. Of course.

576
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:21.520
I mean, they probably don't even need to fly a dragonfly in because we have all these

577
00:52:21.520 --> 00:52:27.040
electronic devices. Of course, they can turn on our devices, probably your watch, if it's an

578
00:52:27.040 --> 00:52:35.600
Apple watch, but certainly your phone. And yeah, we are participating in, I won't even call it

579
00:52:35.600 --> 00:52:42.720
an experiment, but a process that you read 1984. I'm sure most of your audience did. I was very

580
00:52:42.720 --> 00:52:49.600
heartened during the beginning of COVID that 1984 became the 17th best-selling book in the world

581
00:52:49.680 --> 00:52:55.520
in the English language, telling me, ah, people are paying attention. They see that what they're

582
00:52:55.520 --> 00:53:00.960
experiencing here has a degree of 1984 to it. I think all science fiction stories come true.

583
00:53:01.600 --> 00:53:07.280
I really do. I see it at a time after time. What advice would you give to my listeners about

584
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:13.520
how to navigate in the world we're living in today? To avoid risk, threat, whether that's of

585
00:53:13.520 --> 00:53:17.200
our soft tissue, as you said, or just with our privacy or life's generally. Where does the

586
00:53:17.200 --> 00:53:21.120
advice start? You said you raised 10 kids. Yeah. What advice do you give into 10 kids?

587
00:53:22.160 --> 00:53:29.600
Well, they all know that their dad is a big proponent. And my first book, which is still a

588
00:53:29.600 --> 00:53:35.280
very big book, Gift of Fear, that book is, I think, still the best-selling book in the world

589
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:42.880
on violence after 25 years. And that book is all about intuition and personal responsibility.

590
00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:48.880
So the very first thing I would say to your listeners to you, to remind myself as well,

591
00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:54.320
is that human beings did not get the biggest claws or the biggest teeth or the biggest muscles.

592
00:53:54.320 --> 00:54:00.720
We got the biggest brains relative to our size. And the nuclear defense system that all human

593
00:54:00.720 --> 00:54:06.000
beings have is intuition, much different from logic. Intuition, the root of it, by the way,

594
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:11.120
I learned when I was writing that book, is in terror, which means to guard and to protect.

595
00:54:11.120 --> 00:54:14.400
So intuition, when you think about it, oh, I just have a feeling I should go back to the

596
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:19.440
apartment and double check such and such, did I leave the fire on on the pot and you go back

597
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:25.520
and you open the door and you didn't leave the fire on the pot. But something else will always

598
00:54:25.520 --> 00:54:31.840
be going on that makes you glad you came back. I believe that intuition is always right in at least

599
00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:37.200
two ways. One, it always has your best interest at heart. It's not fucking with you. It's giving

600
00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:42.480
you real information that's valuable. And number two, it's always based on something.

601
00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:48.640
And so our journey is to figure out when I have an intuitive feeling like, do this show with you,

602
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:54.000
who knows why. But when I have that intuitive feeling, and by the way, I don't do most shows,

603
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:58.320
I don't know what the reason is. I don't know what it'll be. I mean, I can make up one with logic,

604
00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:02.800
right? I like that guy. I learned a lot from his shows. I can create a case. I can make a case

605
00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:09.040
for anything. But if it's just based on what I feel at everything you've succeeded at and accomplished

606
00:55:09.040 --> 00:55:14.480
was based on what you felt. It was based on intuition. In America, in the West, we think we're doing

607
00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:19.760
it by logic, right? I do a big PowerPoint presentation and I say to the board, here's the reason.

608
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:25.440
Here's why and here's the percentages and they say, oh, good. The board at corporations in

609
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:31.840
America would actually prefer that I use logic, even if I'm wrong, instead of using intuition,

610
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:35.680
even if I'm right. So when I say to you, no, I just think it's the right thing to do. I think

611
00:55:35.680 --> 00:55:40.320
it'd be smart. I think it'll be, it'll really work out like something like Amazon Prime

612
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:46.560
that people opposed. And then it's like 175 million people just in America are using it. Big success.

613
00:55:47.120 --> 00:55:56.480
Intuitive process, not a logic process. Logic is weak and plotting. Logic does A, B, C, D. Intuition

614
00:55:56.480 --> 00:56:03.120
does A to Z instantly. And you don't know why. It's knowing without knowing why. I don't feel

615
00:56:03.120 --> 00:56:08.080
good about that person. I said I was going to make this business deal and backing out of it.

616
00:56:08.080 --> 00:56:12.240
I said I was going to show up to that thing I'm calling and cancelling. And by the way, cancelling,

617
00:56:12.240 --> 00:56:17.360
one of my favorite things. I recommend it to everybody. I recommend cancelling and postponing to

618
00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:22.320
everybody I know. You are not obligated to keep your plans. You made a plan three months ago and

619
00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:27.200
you don't know who you'll even be. Or if you were them or anybody will even be alive three

620
00:56:27.200 --> 00:56:31.280
months from now. There's nothing wrong with cancelling. Now, I don't do it rudely, by the way.

621
00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:38.320
But just to finish on, you know, sort of what your listeners can do is to really fall in love

622
00:56:38.320 --> 00:56:44.560
with intuition and to learn the way you communicate with yourself. There's signals from intuition,

623
00:56:44.640 --> 00:56:52.000
curiosity. You just wonder something, suspicion, worry can even be a signal of intuition.

624
00:56:53.120 --> 00:56:58.400
But the biggest one is true fear. When you feel true fear, I don't want to do this.

625
00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:02.400
I wanted to ask you a question about this. I met with Magnus Carlson, who is the

626
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:06.640
arguably the best chess player in the world. And I met with him after spending some time in Cape Town

627
00:57:06.640 --> 00:57:10.960
writing about gut instinct and intuition and all these kinds of things. And one of the things that

628
00:57:11.840 --> 00:57:16.800
I learnt through my writing was that in many cases when someone has really well trained

629
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:22.800
intuition, their first thought is the right thought. And actually, if you give them longer to think

630
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:28.000
about the problem, they make a worse decision. So when I met Magnus Carlson as the number one

631
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:31.840
chess player in the world, backstage, we were both on stage together. I said to him, I said, listen,

632
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:36.880
I've got a question to ask you. Do you basically now just run off intuition or do you think? And he

633
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:42.640
said, my first thought is nearly always right. So actually, I spend the other time just confirming the

634
00:57:42.640 --> 00:57:50.240
first sort of intuition that I had. And actually, I was telling him about a dodgeball game where they

635
00:57:50.240 --> 00:57:55.040
got dodgeball players, professional dodgeball players, to look at a frozen image of a dodgeball

636
00:57:55.040 --> 00:57:58.960
game and said, where would you throw the ball? And when they gave them little time to decide,

637
00:57:58.960 --> 00:58:02.880
they made a better decision when they just went with their first gut instinct. They made a better

638
00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:07.120
decision. They unfroze it. And it was the right throw. If they gave them longer, they made the

639
00:58:07.120 --> 00:58:13.040
worst decision. And the sort of caveat, I guess the question few is, it appeared to me that you

640
00:58:13.040 --> 00:58:17.280
almost have to train the intuition like areas in our life where we've got multiple reps and pattern

641
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:22.080
recognition. Our intuition is valuable. But then in other areas of our life where we haven't

642
00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:27.120
trained the muscle yet, we can make bad decisions. One such example would just be like the first

643
00:58:27.120 --> 00:58:31.360
time you start hiring people. You don't have a trained intuition yet. So you go, yeah, she seems

644
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:37.360
nice. But then you get, I've probably been hiring thousands of people 15 years now. And I get,

645
00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:41.840
you know, I get intuition. So do you have to train your intuition? Well, I think it happens

646
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:50.240
automatically as you live life that new distinctions are added. But I also believe that it is a natural

647
00:58:50.240 --> 00:58:56.560
resource. I could think of it in a spiritual sense. It's very hard to figure out why we feel

648
00:58:56.560 --> 00:59:01.760
a certain way. And we do what what Magnus said, which is we get our answer. And then we backtrack

649
00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:07.120
and see if it fits, right? I think the training that's necessary, Steven, is not the training to

650
00:59:08.080 --> 00:59:14.560
improve your intuition. But rather the training to listen to it and to not interrogate it and to

651
00:59:14.560 --> 00:59:20.000
not prosecute it. Because I'll give you an example. A woman is working late at night in an office

652
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:24.640
building like this. She's on the 10th floor. She's leaving. She pushes the button for the elevator.

653
00:59:24.640 --> 00:59:32.480
The elevator door opens up. Inside the elevator is a man who causes her fear. She doesn't like it.

654
00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:38.480
For whatever reason, obviously she has no opportunity yet to assess all the issues,

655
00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:42.320
what's he dressed like? What's he looked like? What did I hear three weeks ago about a guy who

656
00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:48.400
wore a blue cap and T shirt? She doesn't have any time. Her first reaction was like that. What does

657
00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:55.680
she do most women? They get into a steel, soundproof chamber with someone they're afraid of.

658
00:59:56.800 --> 01:00:02.480
And there's not another animal in nature that will do it. Now why does she do it? Because the thought

659
01:00:02.480 --> 01:00:08.960
comes, oh, I don't want him to think I'm a racist because he's Hispanic or I don't want to be

660
01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:15.440
that kind of person or I don't want this reality to be true. So I'm going to act like it's not true,

661
01:00:15.440 --> 01:00:22.720
right? And what I say is let the door close in his face. No problem. If you've got the signal,

662
01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:28.240
that's a low cost decision, wait for the next elevator, right? That's a very low cost issue.

663
01:00:28.240 --> 01:00:34.400
Now there are so many examples of this in my work where I interviewed people who had been victimized

664
01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:40.160
and time after time they would tell me I knew when I walked into that underground parking lot that

665
01:00:40.160 --> 01:00:45.680
that was the same car that I'd seen earlier. I knew when I met that guy, such and such. In fact,

666
01:00:45.680 --> 01:00:50.880
there's a beautiful, a woman who wrote me the most beautiful thing. I think it's in in gift of

667
01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:56.160
fear or it's in one of the subsequent books and she said that she would look at her lifelong diary.

668
01:00:56.160 --> 01:01:01.120
She kept a lifelong diary and she looked back at it and it would say, met this guy,

669
01:01:02.080 --> 01:01:05.840
feel a little queasy about him. Not so sure. Dated him,

670
01:01:06.320 --> 01:01:14.320
married him. And then what she wrote to me was she said, again and again, I could see there it was

671
01:01:14.320 --> 01:01:20.880
in my diary. Listen to this. The ending embedded in the beginning. And so what I encourage people to do

672
01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:25.920
going to your original answer is how people can be safer is listen to their intuition, know that

673
01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:30.960
its function is to protect you. That's what it's doing. When I was reading about your work on

674
01:01:31.040 --> 01:01:35.760
intuition and your perspective on it, it got me thinking about people in my life that I have to

675
01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:42.880
get rid of tomorrow. Actually that I have that little lambbell in your head when you have a little

676
01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:48.080
lambbell intuition. I don't know what the answer is but I feel like something isn't right.

677
01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:53.120
And that little lambbell in my head, I'm like, so what do I do about that? I think there was one

678
01:01:53.120 --> 01:01:57.120
particular example I was thinking of where I was getting this little vibe from someone that

679
01:01:57.120 --> 01:02:05.120
something was just off. And then three months later we were at this event and they started

680
01:02:05.120 --> 01:02:11.360
opening up about their childhood. And in the course of opening up about their childhood, I learned

681
01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:17.280
something about their mother and something their mother used to do to them. And they were talking

682
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:22.000
to someone else about this behavior that it's created in them. It suddenly all made sense.

683
01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:28.400
That thing that was making me feel like the vibe was off. I think now is because of something

684
01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:32.000
from their childhood that I didn't actually know which meant they have this behavior which will make

685
01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:37.280
you feel a little bit uncomfortable. And in that moment, and I was thinking about this example

686
01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:41.360
before you arrived because I was like, in that case my intuition told me something but I didn't

687
01:02:41.360 --> 01:02:44.960
know what it was telling me. I imagine a lot of people have that. They have a vibe of someone,

688
01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:49.760
something's not quite right and they're interpreting it to mean X when it could be Y.

689
01:02:49.840 --> 01:02:53.680
Yes, sometimes there's a very nice like in my life and I suspect in yours too,

690
01:02:54.320 --> 01:03:01.440
there's often a very straight line between certain childhood experiences and what we ultimately do.

691
01:03:01.440 --> 01:03:08.160
In my case, a very easy one is there was fear. I then come to have a deep understanding of fear

692
01:03:08.160 --> 01:03:16.640
both sides of it and some compassion for it and some insight. And I then study it. There was

693
01:03:16.640 --> 01:03:24.000
violence in my childhood and so I now come now. It's so long ago that I'm 71. So my childhood

694
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:30.160
is so long ago now that it doesn't have a grip on my throat like it did for a lot of my life where

695
01:03:30.160 --> 01:03:35.760
the narrative was very, very important to me and the narrative of my childhood was important.

696
01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:39.280
Go ahead, you can ask. I was going to say, probably give people the context on your childhood.

697
01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:44.080
Oh, you and me. My childhood, damn it. I'll tell you.

698
01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:51.040
So yeah, very difficult time. My mother was a heroin addict. She was quite violent.

699
01:03:51.040 --> 01:03:57.760
She was very troubled. She committed suicide when she was 39 years old and I was 16.

700
01:03:57.760 --> 01:04:02.960
And that was a kind of failure for me because I considered it my job to get us all through this

701
01:04:02.960 --> 01:04:09.600
drama alive. She shot my stepfather in front of me. A lot of in that house that we lived in,

702
01:04:09.600 --> 01:04:14.400
I think there, I saw the house a few months ago, by the way, I think there are nine bullets in

703
01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:20.720
the walls and floor of that house that I can account for probably still there. And so while I'm

704
01:04:20.720 --> 01:04:28.000
describing this to you dispassionately, it's because of two things, the distance in terms of time,

705
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:33.680
but most of all because of healing. And the, the, I want to give you my definition of healing

706
01:04:33.680 --> 01:04:41.760
in this context. My definition of healing for all of us is when we stop using any of our energy

707
01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:47.840
to manage the past. And this gives us all of our energy in the present moment. And so what do I

708
01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:53.120
mean using energy to manage the past? Well, if I'm keeping that story a going and I'm saying to

709
01:04:53.120 --> 01:04:57.600
my wife, well, because my mom did this, this is why I feel such and such, which I went through

710
01:04:57.600 --> 01:05:03.040
times in my life when, when those things were much closer to me. Today, I feel like I'm not using

711
01:05:03.040 --> 01:05:10.160
any of my energy to manage the past that the narrative I told you. This whole series of dramas

712
01:05:10.160 --> 01:05:15.040
happened. And anytime you hear about a parent or anybody in somebody's life committing suicide,

713
01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:20.320
we often think, oh, what a terrible experience that must have been. But you really ought to think

714
01:05:20.320 --> 01:05:24.560
when you hear about somebody committing suicide is, oh, what a series of terrible experiences

715
01:05:24.560 --> 01:05:29.120
there must have been leading up to that. And I want to tell you real quickly that I had a couple

716
01:05:29.120 --> 01:05:34.560
of dreams that my mother was in that were particularly powerful. And I offer this to the audience

717
01:05:34.560 --> 01:05:39.840
to know that dream experiences are sometimes all you're going to get, right? Because my mother

718
01:05:39.840 --> 01:05:44.320
died when I was 16. So I don't have an opportunity to sit across the table with her and say, what were

719
01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:48.800
you thinking when you're such and such? And what was going on in your life when such and such? And

720
01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:54.960
but in a dream, she came to me once and I asked her, why were you so cruel to me? And she was totally

721
01:05:54.960 --> 01:06:00.560
perplexed. And she said to me, cruel to you, I was preparing you for this extraordinary life.

722
01:06:02.160 --> 01:06:09.840
And I think that's true. I think that's what happened is that for you, whatever your experience was,

723
01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:15.280
for Tony Robbins, who we talked about earlier, what his experience was, it took those experiences.

724
01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:20.480
You take away those experiences and you don't have someone who grows up wanting nothing more than

725
01:06:20.560 --> 01:06:25.440
to write these books for free and sell them for free and get them published for free, like for

726
01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:30.960
hidden facts, the current book, in order to help people deal with these issues of skepticism,

727
01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:37.600
of fear, et cetera. You don't get somebody doing what I do where my ambition is long gone,

728
01:06:38.720 --> 01:06:44.080
my ambition for more, more anything, more money, more houses. Well, houses I might still slip on.

729
01:06:44.080 --> 01:06:50.080
But now it's about service to other people, wasn't always, but it was service to other people.

730
01:06:50.080 --> 01:06:54.960
Because I believe that public life includes you. If all you do is give me a bad example,

731
01:06:54.960 --> 01:06:59.120
that's service. If you give me a good example, that's a prettier form of service. It's that maybe

732
01:06:59.120 --> 01:07:04.720
it's a nicer job you got, but ultimately all of it is service. Everything that we can observe

733
01:07:04.720 --> 01:07:10.000
in, of people in public life and people in our private lives, it's all service. You know,

734
01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:14.720
I remember a friend of mine telling me he went back home for Thanksgiving and he saw his whole family.

735
01:07:14.720 --> 01:07:20.160
And he said, he learned to only stay for one day. He said, because all the shit happened on

736
01:07:20.160 --> 01:07:25.440
the second day with his family if he stayed for two days. And he also learned to stay in a hotel.

737
01:07:25.440 --> 01:07:30.160
I said, oh, you staying at home? He saw a fun. No, never, never stay at home. Because here was

738
01:07:30.160 --> 01:07:35.040
this group of people. But what he told me that was interesting is he said, ah, Aunt Charlene,

739
01:07:35.680 --> 01:07:40.640
you taught me to speak more quietly, because you talk so fucking loud. And he says,

740
01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:47.360
Uncle Carlo, you taught me to be more gentle because man, you're rough in everything you do.

741
01:07:47.360 --> 01:07:53.200
Throw the glasses around and the way you engage. Dad, you taught me to listen to people because

742
01:07:53.200 --> 01:07:58.720
you never fucking listened to a thing I said even today. Isn't it a beautiful way of looking at

743
01:07:58.720 --> 01:08:07.040
it? Basically, these were the teachers in our lives. For my mother, 100%, I'm so far past

744
01:08:07.680 --> 01:08:13.360
forgiveness and so far into gratitude for the pieces that were wonderful. And by the way,

745
01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:19.360
this is a suffering person, right? This is a person that, you know, the charities are for.

746
01:08:19.360 --> 01:08:25.600
And social welfare is for, you know, a woman with three kids and no job and a heroin addict,

747
01:08:25.600 --> 01:08:31.360
forgot to say, that's not an easy job. And other drugs too, by the way, which helped me as I grew

748
01:08:31.840 --> 01:08:36.960
up to be skeptical of pharma, because some of the pills she took, one of them called Doridan,

749
01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:43.280
has now been taken off the market for causing what? Psychosis, which explains a lot of her craziness.

750
01:08:44.240 --> 01:08:51.360
And so all of this, this, you know, teaching that it depends what you do with it, meaning we all,

751
01:08:51.360 --> 01:08:57.280
nobody gets out of here alive. Everybody's got a story to tell. And I remember a case where I

752
01:08:57.280 --> 01:09:02.400
overvalued my own ability to predict human behavior, which I say, you know, I'd say in these books,

753
01:09:02.400 --> 01:09:08.160
you can predict human behavior, right? To drive here today in traffic, I had to predict the

754
01:09:08.160 --> 01:09:12.560
behavior of thousands of people based on just the little movements of the big metal objects around

755
01:09:12.560 --> 01:09:16.800
them. You know, that guy who starts to move over into your lane and then he catches himself and

756
01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:21.200
goes, but you never trust that guy. You always want to get way behind him or way in front of him.

757
01:09:21.200 --> 01:09:25.680
So we're predicting human behavior all the time. But I overvalued mine. I thought, oh, I'm Mr.

758
01:09:25.680 --> 01:09:30.400
Genius predicting human behavior because I developed these systems of artificial intuition that

759
01:09:30.400 --> 01:09:34.000
predict human behavior. And I was at a meeting and there were group of people at the meeting and

760
01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:38.400
it was going to start in about five minutes. And a few people were comforting one woman who was

761
01:09:38.400 --> 01:09:42.880
really sobbing at the end of the table. And I thought to myself judgmentally, I'm like, she even

762
01:09:42.880 --> 01:09:46.640
come to the meeting. And she can't do the meeting like what she doing here. And I knew it was a

763
01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:51.600
boyfriend issue, right? That's what she's crying about. And they're comforting her. The meeting

764
01:09:51.680 --> 01:09:58.240
begins. And that woman speaks first. And she says through her tears, I'm sorry you guys. I'll do

765
01:09:58.240 --> 01:10:05.760
my best at the meeting. But as many of you know, my husband killed my 12-year-old son four days ago.

766
01:10:07.040 --> 01:10:12.480
So my little journey into judgmental prediction was about as wrong as you could be.

767
01:10:13.440 --> 01:10:20.640
And it was a humbling experience for me because I would have discounted that person in a moment.

768
01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:26.320
That's the other side of prediction and intuition, right? You can discount people and quickly

769
01:10:26.320 --> 01:10:31.680
toss them away. And so, you know, when you get this intuitive signal, do we have a responsibility

770
01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:37.520
to understand it? Yeah. We have a responsibility to understand how many people have I met?

771
01:10:37.520 --> 01:10:41.120
Well, I thought, what an asshole that guy is. I don't ever want to talk to that guy again. And I

772
01:10:41.120 --> 01:10:47.120
didn't. My loss. Sometimes it would have been the greatest person in the world. Sometimes it would

773
01:10:47.120 --> 01:10:52.160
have been a great relationship. And now I apply the the George Harrison rule, George Harrison

774
01:10:52.160 --> 01:10:57.280
and the Beatles, which writes this, he writes this unbelievable lyric that's in well my guitar gently

775
01:10:57.280 --> 01:11:02.560
weeps, which is I look at you all and see the love there that's sleeping.

776
01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:12.080
We have a brain budget. The way to think about it is we have a limited amount of energy that we

777
01:11:12.080 --> 01:11:16.560
can spend every single day. I'm saying find ways to simplify your life. And one way I've

778
01:11:16.560 --> 01:11:22.080
conserved my body budget is via our sponsor factor who are a meal delivery service. They are

779
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780
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783
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784
01:11:53.360 --> 01:11:57.440
And this offers only valid for new factor customers with code and qualifying auto review subscription

785
01:11:57.440 --> 01:12:03.280
purchase. If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the world we're living in

786
01:12:03.280 --> 01:12:08.320
today. And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards because on this show when I

787
01:12:08.320 --> 01:12:14.000
sit here with my guest and have those deep intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time

788
01:12:14.000 --> 01:12:19.120
and time again. We feel deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode, the guest

789
01:12:19.120 --> 01:12:24.240
I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest and we've turned them into these conversation

790
01:12:24.240 --> 01:12:28.560
cards. And we've added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And there

791
01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:33.360
are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is the brand new edition.

792
01:12:33.360 --> 01:12:38.640
And for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card which is an exclusive question

793
01:12:38.720 --> 01:12:44.880
from me. But I'm only putting the gold cards in the first run of conversation cards. So get

794
01:12:44.880 --> 01:12:49.440
yours now before the limited edition gold cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description below.

795
01:12:50.880 --> 01:12:55.120
Through your work, you've been behind the scenes with some of the most interesting people on

796
01:12:55.120 --> 01:13:00.320
planet earth. It's most successful, richest, most powerful people on planet earth. And you get to see

797
01:13:00.320 --> 01:13:04.960
therefore both sides of the fence. In a way that most people would never see. You get to see

798
01:13:04.960 --> 01:13:08.960
how they are in the public life. And then you get to see them in their private life. And often

799
01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:13.600
times you'll get to see them during some of the hardest moments of their life. Most of the time, yeah.

800
01:13:14.800 --> 01:13:23.280
What have you learned from that exposure? Well, probably a lot. But I'll give what answer comes

801
01:13:23.280 --> 01:13:28.800
to me intuitively. When I was a kid and I used to watch television, I believed when I was a kid

802
01:13:29.520 --> 01:13:36.640
that the television was more real than our lives. And I learned obviously through my experience

803
01:13:36.640 --> 01:13:43.360
that the exact opposite was true. Right. The media world was unreal. And our lives were real. And

804
01:13:43.360 --> 01:13:49.600
this Stephen is incredibly important today because with AI and social media and other things,

805
01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:55.840
we actually are challenged to know what Israel and what is not real. Did Trump really make that

806
01:13:55.840 --> 01:14:01.120
speech or is it an AI film? Did that really happen or is that real? What I'm looking at? The cat

807
01:14:01.120 --> 01:14:07.120
really did that or is that an AI film? And we are challenged now to understand and choose,

808
01:14:07.120 --> 01:14:14.560
I would say, what's real and what's not real. That challenge has beauty in it because it's making

809
01:14:14.560 --> 01:14:24.640
for me. It's making me question reality itself. In other words, I'm questioning what really matters

810
01:14:24.640 --> 01:14:29.520
to me and what will I call real? And I'll give you some examples. I'll call touch real.

811
01:14:31.040 --> 01:14:38.720
Hug you. Shake your hand. I'll call that real. Nature, time in a park, time with animals, my time

812
01:14:38.720 --> 01:14:44.880
with cats and dogs, unbelievably important to me because I trust those fuckers. Right. I believe

813
01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:49.920
that cat means business. This is what it's doing. If it wants to be on my chest purring,

814
01:14:49.920 --> 01:14:56.080
it wants to be on my chest purring. And if it doesn't, she's out of there. And children

815
01:14:56.080 --> 01:15:03.600
are the same thing. I remember my son's meeting a famous client of mine who, let's say, is was the

816
01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:09.040
richest man of the world, et cetera at that moment. And my son at three years old, how much money do

817
01:15:09.040 --> 01:15:14.640
you have? But he held no offense because it's this little kid. All it can be is real. There's

818
01:15:14.640 --> 01:15:21.840
nothing but real in the little kid. And so where I think optimistically about AI, which definitely

819
01:15:21.840 --> 01:15:27.120
has some problems for the human race for sure, but where I think optimistically about it is,

820
01:15:27.120 --> 01:15:33.920
I think it's good for people to question reality because what ultimately is it? What is it?

821
01:15:33.920 --> 01:15:39.600
If this is a simulation, like Elon makes a good argument for, and I think he leans in that direction,

822
01:15:39.600 --> 01:15:45.200
by the way, and sometimes I do too with him. If it's a simulation, then we want to make it

823
01:15:45.200 --> 01:15:52.000
interesting. And we want to be a bit outside. In a simulation, we're not vulnerable. The spirit,

824
01:15:52.000 --> 01:15:58.560
the soul, the energy that animates us will continue. It's not going anywhere. And it lets us witness

825
01:15:58.560 --> 01:16:04.800
this experience rather than feel victim to it. We get to this a good movie. And we wouldn't go see

826
01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:11.280
a movie if we knew the outcome. But this movie is really good. And so when I look at AI things,

827
01:16:11.280 --> 01:16:15.680
and trust me, I don't know about you, you're younger, so you may have better instincts or

828
01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:21.440
intuitions for it. But I genuinely can't tell sometimes. I've sent something back to a friend of mine

829
01:16:21.440 --> 01:16:25.440
and said, I think that's bullshit. I don't think the dog actually jumped up on the top shelf and

830
01:16:25.440 --> 01:16:29.920
did that such and such. I don't buy it. And then you look at it a few more times. But this is good

831
01:16:30.880 --> 01:16:37.840
for us. Because what it brings us to is whatever we think is real, touch, taste,

832
01:16:39.520 --> 01:16:46.480
the feelings, tears, nature. Whenever we think it is, I believe that's where I want to be.

833
01:16:47.200 --> 01:16:50.400
That's where I want to spend my time. So there's this theoretical, the dead internet theory

834
01:16:50.400 --> 01:16:54.400
where they think that because of AI and us being able to make, I actually sent a video to some

835
01:16:54.400 --> 01:16:58.240
of my team members earlier. It was a two and a half minute video. And it's made with one of these

836
01:16:58.240 --> 01:17:02.880
AI tools. And it's the ending of a very famous movie. And someone's just changed it. And

837
01:17:02.880 --> 01:17:05.760
they've like, it's a kid in their bedroom. It's made new ending to the movie. Couple of prompts

838
01:17:05.760 --> 01:17:10.720
they've got new ending to the movie. And I was playing this forward, playing this forward and forward.

839
01:17:10.720 --> 01:17:17.680
And eventually you get to a point where bots will be just spraying content at the internet. And in

840
01:17:17.680 --> 01:17:24.080
such a world, unless we have these sort of retina scanners to confirm that I'm doing the post-live,

841
01:17:24.080 --> 01:17:28.320
you get to this dead internet theory where, like, everything you see is either written by

842
01:17:28.320 --> 01:17:33.840
produced by AI. Therefore, wait, our level of skepticism just raises to the point that we don't

843
01:17:33.840 --> 01:17:37.920
trust anything we're seeing. You're saying that that's actually a good thing for us because it

844
01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:43.920
makes us question what we're seeing again and revert to real things that are irreplaceably human.

845
01:17:44.480 --> 01:17:52.720
Yes, I think it's good to, I think it's spiritually good for us to redefine reality. As opposed to,

846
01:17:52.720 --> 01:17:58.080
take me back 20 years in my life and possibly yours, what did I believe? Everything the government

847
01:17:58.080 --> 01:18:02.480
said. Every official narrative. Why wouldn't I believe it? Do you think there's any downsides

848
01:18:02.480 --> 01:18:10.640
where I lost interest in institutions? Well, I have such a negative view of big centralized

849
01:18:11.520 --> 01:18:17.760
institutions. Why? Because I think what happens when you, a very good number of people

850
01:18:17.840 --> 01:18:21.520
to live together is about 300. And what I base that on is,

851
01:18:22.640 --> 01:18:28.080
Fiji, where I live a lot, villages are about 300 people. There's a chief who lives with them. He

852
01:18:28.080 --> 01:18:32.960
doesn't get special treatment. He's not carried around in a gold chariot. He's got to eat the same

853
01:18:32.960 --> 01:18:41.200
food they do. And he is generally benevolent because the beauty of the Fijian village, and I

854
01:18:41.200 --> 01:18:45.840
encourage you to go and all your viewers to go, don't all go on the same day because you'll

855
01:18:45.840 --> 01:18:53.120
fuck up Fiji, but go anyway. The beauty of the Fijian village is that people will be born

856
01:18:54.400 --> 01:19:01.440
and grow up and get married and have children and die all in the same house and all with the same

857
01:19:01.440 --> 01:19:09.920
people. That's fantastic because what they don't get that I get in my life and you get is the

858
01:19:09.920 --> 01:19:15.040
engagement with all these anonymous people that don't matter, right? The waiter is just a snapshot

859
01:19:15.520 --> 01:19:19.200
to me, not a real person I'm sitting down with. I like to, by the way, really engage with people

860
01:19:19.760 --> 01:19:25.200
at the expense of the friends I'm with very often. I'm really curious about people, the Uber driver.

861
01:19:25.200 --> 01:19:32.640
I'm curious. But I know that this is a temporary relationship. In the Fijian village, it's not

862
01:19:32.640 --> 01:19:36.000
a temporary relationship. I give you a good example on an airplane. You're on a commercial flight

863
01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:41.920
somewhere and you've got a 10-hour flight to overseas to London or something. And there's a baby

864
01:19:42.400 --> 01:19:48.560
crying. And you're pissed at the baby's crying. Some people are. I mean, I look at this when we used

865
01:19:48.560 --> 01:19:55.280
to travel my wife and I, and I remember somebody saying when we boarded with my maybe 20-month-old son,

866
01:19:55.280 --> 01:20:01.600
is that baby going to cry? And I said to the woman, what do you think? It's a 20-month-old baby.

867
01:20:01.600 --> 01:20:06.880
But the point is, hey folks, we're together for the next 10 hours. How do we want to spend this time?

868
01:20:06.880 --> 01:20:10.880
We want to spend it hating each other. We want to get too drunk and bug the person next to you. How do

869
01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:16.080
we want to do this? A Fijian village is like that. In fact, a Fijian village is fewer bathrooms

870
01:20:16.080 --> 01:20:21.680
than a 747 and fewer seats than a 747. Fewer people, for God's sake, than what we get on an

871
01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:28.000
airplane every day. And so I believe in small populations for governance. And I believe in

872
01:20:28.640 --> 01:20:33.120
subsidiarity. A word you probably don't know. I only learned it about a year ago from a dear friend

873
01:20:33.120 --> 01:20:39.040
in Cape Town. Subsidiarity means government at the most local possible level. So if it's a,

874
01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:44.080
an issue regarding building permit, that ought to be city or county. Nothing to do with Washington,

875
01:20:44.080 --> 01:20:48.400
DC. If it's an issue regarding interstate commerce, okay, maybe we need a little Washington,

876
01:20:48.400 --> 01:20:54.080
DC. We need a little state involved. But government at the most local possible level so that I can come

877
01:20:54.080 --> 01:20:59.040
over to your house, Steven, and say, why did you not approve my building permit? Or so I can meet

878
01:20:59.040 --> 01:21:02.720
you in the restaurant where we see each other every morning where our kids go to school together.

879
01:21:02.720 --> 01:21:07.920
I don't believe centralized government works. And I think further that centralized government

880
01:21:07.920 --> 01:21:13.040
is our enemy. It is the enemy of, of citizens. I was thinking about the parallels there,

881
01:21:13.040 --> 01:21:16.560
actually, for business to get too big. Yeah, they get too big and a lot of great companies

882
01:21:16.560 --> 01:21:20.640
actually break, break up divisions and departments and give them autonomy and subsidiary,

883
01:21:20.640 --> 01:21:23.680
it's claiming the same. It's a subsidiary. It wasn't easy for me. I nailed it first time we

884
01:21:23.680 --> 01:21:30.800
talking about subsidiary, subsidiarity, subsidiarity. Yeah. And how even in as our company grows,

885
01:21:30.800 --> 01:21:36.000
maybe I should think we're about subsidiarity. Well, I'll tell you, my company at its biggest

886
01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:42.560
was about 1,000 people and 26 offices around the country, around the world. And I didn't like 1,000

887
01:21:42.560 --> 01:21:48.400
people as a number. I liked where we are now, which is about 600 people. And we're hiring, by the

888
01:21:48.400 --> 01:21:54.480
way, so look us up and come to work. We need young people who are physically fit and have good

889
01:21:54.480 --> 01:22:00.720
backgrounds, meaning they can pass screening. But my point is that I like to stay in that sweet spot

890
01:22:00.720 --> 01:22:07.040
of 1,000 people starts to get too far from the individuals. And when it's small,

891
01:22:07.040 --> 01:22:13.920
and I don't know where you are now in this podcast organization, but you can walk down the hall

892
01:22:13.920 --> 01:22:19.920
and see an employee and say, hey, it seems like you're not doing so well. You don't like to joke

893
01:22:19.920 --> 01:22:25.600
anymore. You seem humorous. You seem such and such. In a big organization, well, I developed a

894
01:22:25.600 --> 01:22:29.520
method for that, by the way, I'll tell you a second. But in a big organization, you get farther

895
01:22:29.520 --> 01:22:33.200
and farther and farther from the human beings. I want to tell you the method we developed. We have

896
01:22:33.200 --> 01:22:40.240
a thing called care. It stands for continuous asking, responding, and evaluation. Every day,

897
01:22:40.240 --> 01:22:47.920
every employee in my company, when they log into work, gets a question that they answer. And I get

898
01:22:47.920 --> 01:22:53.360
the statistical results of that every day. And the questions will be things like, when do you think

899
01:22:53.360 --> 01:22:59.200
you're getting your next promotion? Or have you experienced a witness sexual harassment?

900
01:22:59.200 --> 01:23:06.080
Have you experienced a discrimination? Why do I do that? Because I want to know. That's why you ask.

901
01:23:06.080 --> 01:23:11.520
Have you, in bigger companies that use our system, like Amazon did, developed a system like it,

902
01:23:11.520 --> 01:23:15.840
that you might ask a question like, have you ever seen a firearm in the workplace and unauthorized

903
01:23:15.840 --> 01:23:20.880
firearm? Oh, damn it. We want to know that information, right? Does your supervisor know your name?

904
01:23:21.840 --> 01:23:25.520
Huge question. Because the supervisor, knowing that question is asked,

905
01:23:26.160 --> 01:23:30.160
knows everybody's name, which is what you want. Your influencing middle management behavior.

906
01:23:30.160 --> 01:23:34.240
But that system we have care is no different than me walking down the hall and say,

907
01:23:34.240 --> 01:23:37.600
hey, Stephen, I noticed for the last couple of days, you're keeping your office door closed,

908
01:23:37.600 --> 01:23:41.840
and you kind of shut down for some reason, what's going on? You lose that when it gets too big.

909
01:23:41.840 --> 01:23:47.680
And when it gets really too big, like think about government agencies like HHS, the biggest

910
01:23:47.680 --> 01:23:55.360
budget in world history, $1.7 trillion, bigger than the Pentagon started out at 85,000 employees.

911
01:23:55.360 --> 01:24:01.120
Luckily, it's down now. You gotta be kidding. You're running a machine. It has nothing to do with

912
01:24:01.120 --> 01:24:06.400
humanity. And government agencies have nothing to do with humanity. They have to do with process

913
01:24:07.120 --> 01:24:12.880
bureaucracy. We talked about advice. That's kind of where we started on this train of thought

914
01:24:12.880 --> 01:24:17.520
that you would give to your children. And one of the trains we went down was about intuition.

915
01:24:17.760 --> 01:24:24.000
Yes. Is there anything else that you think was, you know, if this got to be with you last day

916
01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:29.760
on earth and your children said to you, that, what do I need to know to live a fulfilling life?

917
01:24:29.760 --> 01:24:34.800
Yes. Based in the world, as we see it today, what would you say if you could only say one thing?

918
01:24:34.800 --> 01:24:41.520
For me, and I think it's true for everybody, contribution to others is a key part of

919
01:24:42.240 --> 01:24:47.600
coming to believe that you belong here. Those of us who had a tough time, and remember I said

920
01:24:47.600 --> 01:24:54.240
everybody has a tough time in some way, through childhood, self-love is often missing or is hard

921
01:24:54.240 --> 01:24:59.200
to come by. And to believe that you belong here, contribution to others is a key thing.

922
01:24:59.840 --> 01:25:05.040
The second one, you asked for one, but you're getting two. So it's a special today, a bargain.

923
01:25:05.120 --> 01:25:08.560
The second one was the hardest lesson for me to come to believe.

924
01:25:09.600 --> 01:25:14.720
And that was that what is right for you is always right for the other person.

925
01:25:16.240 --> 01:25:19.360
Very hard for me to get my head around this one, because I thought, oh, wait a minute,

926
01:25:19.360 --> 01:25:23.040
I want to break up with this girl who wants to get married and have kids with me.

927
01:25:23.040 --> 01:25:25.520
How can my breaking up be right for the other person?

928
01:25:26.560 --> 01:25:31.600
Well, A, she gets to be with somebody who actually wants to be with her. She gets to

929
01:25:31.600 --> 01:25:36.320
begin her life now instead of I stay with her until she's 45 and she can't have kids anymore.

930
01:25:36.320 --> 01:25:40.800
So this idea that what's right for you is always right for the other person. The practical

931
01:25:40.800 --> 01:25:45.680
application is that all you need to do, Stephen, is know what's right for you, which is easy

932
01:25:45.680 --> 01:25:50.480
to say than done. It is easier said than done, but because in my case, what I would do is say,

933
01:25:50.480 --> 01:25:54.560
well, how's this person going to do? When I was younger, I believed everybody that I fired,

934
01:25:54.560 --> 01:25:58.400
for example, which was very few people in my career. I mean, employed a shitload of people,

935
01:25:58.400 --> 01:26:02.960
but I didn't fire very often. Everybody that I fired, I thought they went from working at this

936
01:26:02.960 --> 01:26:08.080
great company that I was the founder of to being on the street homeless and couldn't feed their

937
01:26:08.080 --> 01:26:13.360
families. That's not what happened. They went to other great jobs. If they could work for GDBA,

938
01:26:13.360 --> 01:26:17.760
they had already jumped through so many loops. They were presentable. They were intelligent. They

939
01:26:17.760 --> 01:26:23.040
were physically fit. They had a great background. They had integrity that we could see. They had

940
01:26:23.040 --> 01:26:28.080
all variety of things and they presented incredibly well, because we've got one hell of a screening

941
01:26:28.160 --> 01:26:34.560
process. We have a nine day, nine day interview. Not a one hour interview. They live. They come and

942
01:26:34.560 --> 01:26:40.640
live at our camp for nine days of an interview process. They're sleeping in our environment. We're

943
01:26:40.640 --> 01:26:46.400
really getting to know them. By the way, it's 12 days now, but it started as nine days. Now I know

944
01:26:46.400 --> 01:26:52.000
if I fire somebody or if they leave, they're going to do fantastic. That was a big awakening for me.

945
01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:57.600
But this idea that what's right for me is always right for the other person. What does it do? It

946
01:26:57.600 --> 01:27:02.560
frees you to know that the only place I have to go to get the answer to this question is in here.

947
01:27:03.360 --> 01:27:07.120
You don't want me messing around in your brain, trying to figure out what you want,

948
01:27:07.120 --> 01:27:12.080
trying to figure out what you believe, trying to figure out what's best for you. I've hurt more

949
01:27:12.080 --> 01:27:19.040
people in my life, trying to figure out what's best for them. Then I've helped. It is remarkably

950
01:27:19.040 --> 01:27:24.160
true. I was just sort of since checking it against people in one particular case where I'd

951
01:27:24.160 --> 01:27:27.840
fired someone and they were very upset about it. Many, many, many years ago in a previous business,

952
01:27:27.840 --> 01:27:36.320
very upset about it, protested, said some things to me. Then years later, five, six,

953
01:27:36.320 --> 01:27:40.080
ten years later, when I reflect on where they are now. If that was the best thing for them,

954
01:27:40.080 --> 01:27:44.720
as I kind of assumed it was, to be honest, they would say it was the best thing for them. I would

955
01:27:44.720 --> 01:27:49.120
say it was the best thing for them in hindsight. In part, because when held in a situation that's

956
01:27:49.280 --> 01:27:54.320
not right for them, they're going to suffer in other ways. I understand your resentment.

957
01:27:54.320 --> 01:27:57.920
My resentment, a standard they can't meet, goals they can't meet, the pressure from everybody,

958
01:27:57.920 --> 01:28:01.600
the stress when they can't seem to matter. Yeah, of course. And let them go and they started

959
01:28:01.600 --> 01:28:07.200
their own thing and less pressure, lower goals, less expectation. They seem to be much,

960
01:28:07.200 --> 01:28:11.520
much happier. And you, I want more, much happier. And you, yeah, that's the idea. Look,

961
01:28:11.520 --> 01:28:15.760
God only made you or the universe, whichever word you want to fit in there, only made you responsible

962
01:28:15.760 --> 01:28:21.920
for one person, truly responsible for one person. And that's you. And then that has, of course,

963
01:28:21.920 --> 01:28:26.640
all the ripple effects of what it does for the rest of the world. Even our children, by the way,

964
01:28:26.640 --> 01:28:32.320
are we responsible for them? Certainly not for life, right? Because in my case, I'm an older

965
01:28:32.320 --> 01:28:37.600
father. My first birth kid, I had a bunch of adopted kids, a bunch. I had eight. But my first

966
01:28:37.600 --> 01:28:45.200
birth kid, I was 52 years old. And so I'm an older father to my 17-year-old son. I don't expect to

967
01:28:45.200 --> 01:28:51.520
be around when he's 50. I'll take it if it happens to be that way. But I would be de-fucking-crepit

968
01:28:51.520 --> 01:28:58.240
by that point. And I'd rather probably exit before that. But my point is the idea that even our

969
01:28:58.240 --> 01:29:04.160
children, we will not find the answer. Do I know what's best for my kids? Of course not.

970
01:29:04.160 --> 01:29:10.880
I have a lot of opinions. But do I really know what's best? No, but I know what's best for me.

971
01:29:10.880 --> 01:29:15.200
And that's really where my responsibility has to end. And Stephen, you asked me to boil it down

972
01:29:15.200 --> 01:29:21.840
to one. I gave you a special today of two. And I want to give you the third one that you haven't

973
01:29:21.840 --> 01:29:29.360
asked for. And it's this. Everything you want is downstream. Everything you want is downstream.

974
01:29:29.920 --> 01:29:34.160
Meaning that time when we're swimming against the current and think, oh, if it's important,

975
01:29:34.160 --> 01:29:38.320
it's going to take all this work, et cetera, et cetera. There is no swimming upstream.

976
01:29:39.040 --> 01:29:44.000
Well, downstream always wins. Reality always wins. You know, when you swim upstream,

977
01:29:44.000 --> 01:29:48.640
you put enough current there and you're staying in the same place. And so the times in my life,

978
01:29:48.640 --> 01:29:53.760
when I thought it must be this way, it has to be this, this is the only way. I was wrong.

979
01:29:54.480 --> 01:29:59.520
I was wrong, including a dear friend of mine told me the story of hiring a CEO for his

980
01:29:59.520 --> 01:30:04.880
company, a big company. And the guy said, I'll take the job. And they negotiated everything.

981
01:30:04.880 --> 01:30:08.800
And then the guy said, you know, I'm going to go to work for Pepsi Cola. And I'm sorry.

982
01:30:08.800 --> 01:30:13.040
And my friend got an airplane and flew to the hotel and waited in the lobby of the hotel

983
01:30:13.040 --> 01:30:17.520
where he knew the guy was caught him in the lobby and said, don't go to work for them. Go to work

984
01:30:17.520 --> 01:30:21.840
for me. I'll change the offer in the following way. I'll add this equity. And he succeeded.

985
01:30:22.640 --> 01:30:27.680
And he got the CEO he wanted. And three weeks later, had to fire the pucker.

986
01:30:28.240 --> 01:30:34.640
So basically, when the whole universe says no, everything you want is downstream.

987
01:30:34.640 --> 01:30:39.840
Now, you probably have some, you tell me, do you have some resistance to that idea?

988
01:30:39.840 --> 01:30:48.160
I would say, I can think of examples where I fought for something and it was I fought for a person

989
01:30:48.160 --> 01:30:53.200
or something. And it turned out to be a good decision. Should I give you the context?

990
01:30:54.160 --> 01:30:58.480
I'd love to hear the context, but by the way, that doesn't defeat my argument because fighting

991
01:30:58.480 --> 01:31:04.480
for something is not the same as swimming upstream. You know, swimming upstream is you know which way

992
01:31:04.480 --> 01:31:09.920
this river is going. Oh, yeah. That makes sense then. Yeah. And so you ask what I would tell my

993
01:31:09.920 --> 01:31:16.320
kids is that everything you want is downstream. It kind of, you know, I've been so blessed or lucky,

994
01:31:16.320 --> 01:31:20.960
whatever word you want to use or fortune it in my life, that my work, you've got all these books

995
01:31:20.960 --> 01:31:26.880
as examples. I loved doing it. It wasn't work. I love sometimes it's hard,

996
01:31:26.880 --> 01:31:31.840
but hard is not the same as like feeling like I'm just stamping something out in this factory,

997
01:31:31.840 --> 01:31:38.640
which would be a kind of hell for me, I guess. I loved, I was doing what I was on the planet to do.

998
01:31:38.640 --> 01:31:43.040
I think everybody isn't that lucky. The example I was going to give you actually

999
01:31:43.040 --> 01:31:48.640
the story, yes. Go ahead. Me and my then girlfriend were dating for a year. We had an issue.

1000
01:31:48.640 --> 01:31:53.120
I've been very upset about this and newspapers were out of that and stuff, but we had an issue with

1001
01:31:53.120 --> 01:32:03.120
our intimate life and we couldn't really see a way round it broke up. She flew to Bali because we

1002
01:32:03.120 --> 01:32:07.760
couldn't see a way to solve the problem and then I carried on with my life and a year goes past

1003
01:32:07.760 --> 01:32:11.520
and I'm thinking constantly and thinking, do you know what? I think actually that was the right person.

1004
01:32:11.520 --> 01:32:15.840
I think I found out. I think I should have maybe in my maturity, I like should have found a way

1005
01:32:15.920 --> 01:32:23.280
to work through this problem. So I fly across the world to Bali for 18 hours and I go there to apologize

1006
01:32:23.280 --> 01:32:28.080
to her for not handling the situation better in a more mature way. I apologize. I think there

1007
01:32:28.080 --> 01:32:31.760
is part of me that's trying to get her back. Actually while we're there, she does tell me that in

1008
01:32:31.760 --> 01:32:37.120
the time we've been apart, she's been with someone else and I take it all very, very well. I'm very

1009
01:32:37.120 --> 01:32:43.840
mature and then while we're there, she's not trying to sit next to me. So when we go for dinner with

1010
01:32:43.920 --> 01:32:47.440
our friends, she's like sitting two seats down. She's like, there's no interest in me anymore.

1011
01:32:48.080 --> 01:32:52.240
So I accept it and I tell her I'm going home in two days time. Thank you so much for spending time.

1012
01:32:52.240 --> 01:32:56.240
I send her this nice text message and then in those in the 48 hours before my flight,

1013
01:32:58.000 --> 01:33:02.000
it's like we fell in love with each other again. So it supports your point because when I

1014
01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:06.800
apologized, I came with no agenda and then I said, I'm leaving. In the 48 hours from the point

1015
01:33:06.800 --> 01:33:11.040
where I said, I'm off now, sent her a nice message. It's like we fell in love again. She's not my

1016
01:33:11.040 --> 01:33:16.240
fiance. Congratulations to you both. It's been seven years or something. But it actually goes to

1017
01:33:16.240 --> 01:33:19.440
show what you said. Now I thought it through because I thought flying was me fighting for something

1018
01:33:19.440 --> 01:33:24.800
because of the example you gave, but actually it was, I apologize and I'd given up. I like

1019
01:33:24.800 --> 01:33:31.200
stopped fighting. That's the best when you let it go. Suddenly it happens. Yes, it does fit

1020
01:33:31.200 --> 01:33:37.280
everything you want is downstream. In fact, that's not even getting on a plane is downstream.

1021
01:33:37.280 --> 01:33:42.160
You didn't get on a plane that flies backwards or has no engines. That's what I'm talking about

1022
01:33:42.160 --> 01:33:47.120
is when you find yourself and I certainly have in my life, find myself doing something that is so

1023
01:33:47.120 --> 01:33:55.360
difficult to do and so unrewarding. It feels like I'm trying to swim upstream, which I can tell you

1024
01:33:55.360 --> 01:34:00.640
from experience and lots of rivers, some of them in Fiji. It doesn't work. You don't get a lot of

1025
01:34:00.640 --> 01:34:04.880
mileage swimming upstream. I was just going to ask because this was such a smash hit by selling

1026
01:34:04.880 --> 01:34:12.000
book. Nationally. I was just going to ask you the question, why? What is it that resonated

1027
01:34:12.000 --> 01:34:16.560
with people that made this book so successful, the gift of fear, survival signals that protect

1028
01:34:16.560 --> 01:34:23.280
us from violence? What is it? That's a very good question. I mean, a good question in that it's

1029
01:34:23.280 --> 01:34:30.000
a new question. I'll give you what I hope. I think if that book had been about Chinese pottery

1030
01:34:30.800 --> 01:34:37.920
or about spices or any subject, carpentry, it also would have worked well because it had

1031
01:34:37.920 --> 01:34:44.400
by a number of blessings, it had some core truth in it. One of the things I'm saying to them is

1032
01:34:44.400 --> 01:34:49.520
forget about experts. You don't need an expert to be telling you things that are in your own body.

1033
01:34:49.520 --> 01:34:54.080
If this story is resonant to you, if this experience from all these people that I interviewed

1034
01:34:54.080 --> 01:35:01.760
is resonant to you, and if that works for you, then you'll find value here. There are some

1035
01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:06.080
practical reasons why it was the best seller like Hope were doing it. I mean, everybody did it.

1036
01:35:06.080 --> 01:35:11.520
Time magazine, Newsweek, everybody did big things on the book. Why at that moment did that work out?

1037
01:35:11.520 --> 01:35:18.320
I have a theory which is that a lot of people in media knew me or knew of me, but I never had

1038
01:35:18.320 --> 01:35:24.480
done anything public. It took a lot of courage to do. When I, for me, I talk about things that were

1039
01:35:24.480 --> 01:35:30.080
very personal in that book and in the other books as well. It took a lot of courage. In fact, I went

1040
01:35:30.080 --> 01:35:37.920
and met with two authors beforehand who had told really hard stories about their lives. I didn't

1041
01:35:37.920 --> 01:35:44.560
know them. I just asked for meetings. One of them was in DC. I got some encouragement. I also

1042
01:35:44.560 --> 01:35:49.600
remember, by the way, meeting with a group of law enforcement officials who were at my company

1043
01:35:49.600 --> 01:35:55.520
for some reason, and I told them a couple of stories from that book, childhood stories, and they

1044
01:35:55.520 --> 01:36:01.600
were kind of aghast. Everybody was like, oh, it didn't stimulate any conversation at the table.

1045
01:36:01.600 --> 01:36:07.280
I knew I was in a kind of territory that most people run away from, and that too helped me

1046
01:36:08.240 --> 01:36:14.240
because I thought denial, denial, denial, denial, denial, all around the table because every cop

1047
01:36:15.040 --> 01:36:21.840
and every FBI agent has a story about why they are doing what they're doing, just like every doctor

1048
01:36:21.840 --> 01:36:27.600
does, just like everybody does. There's a reason that they're doing what they're doing that usually

1049
01:36:27.600 --> 01:36:33.040
will be discoverable in childhood. When they discover it, like who do you want, for example,

1050
01:36:33.120 --> 01:36:37.680
for a heart surgeon? Do you want the heart surgeon whose grandfather died of a heart attack

1051
01:36:37.680 --> 01:36:42.480
in his arms when he was 14 years old, or do you want the one who said heart surgery?

1052
01:36:42.480 --> 01:36:46.240
Oh, the earnings look really good on heart surgery. I'll take heart surgery as my major.

1053
01:36:47.360 --> 01:36:52.480
You want the one with a core, with a personal story.

1054
01:36:53.520 --> 01:36:57.120
We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next, and the question

1055
01:36:57.120 --> 01:37:01.680
left for you, not knowing who they were leaving it for, is where do you think the origin of your

1056
01:37:01.680 --> 01:37:10.880
purpose and meaning comes from objectively? Okay, give me 25 minutes of silence.

1057
01:37:13.200 --> 01:37:23.360
This is, I guess it's somewhat of a spiritual answer, which is that I believe in,

1058
01:37:24.320 --> 01:37:31.920
I tend to go with everything is predetermined, meaning down to the smallest tree,

1059
01:37:32.640 --> 01:37:39.520
in the smallest town, in the smallest place, that's how it was going to be. Now, I have a

1060
01:37:39.520 --> 01:37:44.000
scientific version of this, which is that if you're, I remember one day I was in Fiji,

1061
01:37:44.720 --> 01:37:50.400
and I was swimming in front of my house, and the water is just four feet deep in front of my house

1062
01:37:50.400 --> 01:37:53.920
because it's on a reef, so you can walk on it. And then you get to the end of the reef, you get to

1063
01:37:53.920 --> 01:37:59.600
the deep water. And I was standing in the, in the four foot deep water, and suddenly a massive

1064
01:37:59.600 --> 01:38:03.760
rain storm came, just like the pop pop pop, you know, hitting you in the head, and then it stopped

1065
01:38:03.760 --> 01:38:10.080
immediately. And immediately after that, this massive school of fish about this big just started

1066
01:38:10.080 --> 01:38:15.600
jumping out of the water in front of me, and it's noisy. It's like, as they were going around,

1067
01:38:15.600 --> 01:38:21.120
and they go in a whole circle around me, and then there, and then they're gone. And immediately

1068
01:38:21.120 --> 01:38:29.280
after this, the tide, which was rising, it goes up and down, as you know, twice a day, the tide really

1069
01:38:29.280 --> 01:38:34.400
got strong where I was standing, and it was coming in as opposed to going out. And so I was really

1070
01:38:34.400 --> 01:38:40.560
like standing there like this, and I was looking around and I thought, this better be enough stimulation

1071
01:38:40.720 --> 01:38:46.320
for you, brother, like I'd just seen the giant rain storm and then the sun, the fish going nuts,

1072
01:38:46.320 --> 01:38:52.480
and then this giant tide thing. And as soon as I thought that, a whale breached right off the reef,

1073
01:38:53.600 --> 01:39:01.920
right? And I thought, holy shit, man, you are seeing one hell of a movie here. And then I thought,

1074
01:39:01.920 --> 01:39:11.440
in fact, I dreamed that night that I was, as if somebody had typed in, show me what it would be like

1075
01:39:12.160 --> 01:39:18.160
to be standing on a reef in Fiji. There was no AI then, but to be standing on a reef in Fiji and

1076
01:39:18.160 --> 01:39:24.880
have a massive school of fish go jumping up around you, have a huge storm begin, have it quickly

1077
01:39:24.880 --> 01:39:29.440
get sunny, and then see a whale breach in front of you as you're trying to hold on to the reef is

1078
01:39:30.320 --> 01:39:37.520
so strong you can barely stand up. Show me what that's like, Google, and that I, Gavin, was like the

1079
01:39:37.520 --> 01:39:48.000
eyes of God, universe, whatever it may be that you could, like what is it like to be a 42-year-old man

1080
01:39:48.000 --> 01:39:54.160
who's had this diet this day, this trip out to the reef, this childhood, this experience,

1081
01:39:54.720 --> 01:40:01.760
is it all predetermined? And I do believe it is. And so the answer to that question is I believe it's

1082
01:40:01.760 --> 01:40:06.880
out of my hands. I may get the choices, you know, as their free will, something is presented to me,

1083
01:40:06.880 --> 01:40:13.440
go left, go right. I might get the choice, but what is presented to me? What is presented to me

1084
01:40:13.440 --> 01:40:19.680
is not up to me. You tell me that life is consciousness trying to understand itself. Someone said

1085
01:40:19.680 --> 01:40:25.360
that to me once and it was quite a compelling thought. The idea was dropped into my skull so quickly,

1086
01:40:25.360 --> 01:40:31.600
like it was a journalistic report that said, here's the way the world works, something or somebody

1087
01:40:31.600 --> 01:40:40.240
or everybody or everything, types into Google what it wants to see, and occasionally you are the body

1088
01:40:40.240 --> 01:40:44.640
that it works through. Because if the rest of the universe, and by the way, kind of interesting,

1089
01:40:45.200 --> 01:40:51.760
very moment we're in Stephen, because that experience I had is now being relayed to a few million

1090
01:40:51.760 --> 01:40:56.880
people, courtesy of you and your question and that question in this podcast. So now you do know a

1091
01:40:56.880 --> 01:41:02.480
little bit about what it's like to stand in the water with the current trying to pull you over and

1092
01:41:02.480 --> 01:41:06.480
see a whole school of fish go around you and see a whale breach right in front of you and see

1093
01:41:06.480 --> 01:41:11.600
this massive rainstorm come and go in a matter of minutes. Now you get a little piece of that

1094
01:41:11.680 --> 01:41:16.800
experience. Now do I think here's the punch line? Do I think I created that experience? No

1095
01:41:16.800 --> 01:41:23.840
fucking way. I don't. I think it's predetermined. And I think I said to you, the scientific version is

1096
01:41:24.720 --> 01:41:29.040
you're going to ask me this question and that's the answer you're going to get. That's what I believe.

1097
01:41:29.840 --> 01:41:35.680
Based on what I ate today, based on what I ate 40 years ago, based on childhood, based on who you

1098
01:41:35.680 --> 01:41:40.160
are and who I am, that's the answer you're going to get. And who left the question? And who left

1099
01:41:40.320 --> 01:41:45.520
it and how their day was and what they ate that day and everything else. I believe in predetermination.

1100
01:41:45.520 --> 01:41:51.920
It is, it comes from a teacher of mine in India, my best teacher in life, Nassar Gadada wrote a book

1101
01:41:51.920 --> 01:41:58.320
called, I am that recommended to everybody. And then his student who's now died, Ramesh Bhasikar,

1102
01:41:58.320 --> 01:42:03.200
who I got to go see and spend time with in India, who was an important teacher for me, who basically

1103
01:42:03.200 --> 01:42:10.240
said, every day at 9am, he had satsang in his house. Basically, people could come and ask questions.

1104
01:42:11.520 --> 01:42:16.160
And it was sort of, he happened to be Indian, but it was sort of Buddhist in nature. And somebody

1105
01:42:16.160 --> 01:42:20.880
said to him, well, are you just saying we're all robots? And he said, yes, exactly correct. We're

1106
01:42:20.880 --> 01:42:25.040
all robots. And then the person said, well, why should I even get out of bed in the morning?

1107
01:42:25.040 --> 01:42:30.720
And he said, try it. Try and stay in bed. And he said, after a few days, you'll be up and about.

1108
01:42:30.720 --> 01:42:36.720
You'll be doing something. You'll be motivated to do something. So that is my answer to your question,

1109
01:42:36.720 --> 01:42:42.480
which obviously I only heard the second and the answer only came this second.

1110
01:42:44.000 --> 01:42:48.720
Kevin, thank you. Thank you for opening my eyes in so many ways. You've written so many of these

1111
01:42:48.720 --> 01:42:52.320
great books. All of them I'm going to link below. The newest one here is called Forbidden Facts,

1112
01:42:52.320 --> 01:42:56.000
Government Deceit and Suppression about brain damage from childhood vaccines. There's another book

1113
01:42:56.000 --> 01:43:00.720
about children here protecting the gift, keeping children and teenagers safe and parents saying,

1114
01:43:00.720 --> 01:43:04.880
the gift of fear, survival signals that protect us from violence. And I think those are the only

1115
01:43:04.880 --> 01:43:09.920
three you need to link. And my reason is these are kind of specialty books. Okay, fine. So I'll link

1116
01:43:09.920 --> 01:43:16.000
these below for everyone to see. I highly recommend checking all of government's work out. And these

1117
01:43:16.000 --> 01:43:19.600
are going to be in the comments section below if anyone wants to read more about some of the things

1118
01:43:19.600 --> 01:43:22.880
we've touched on. You've touched on all these books today. But if you want to go deeper on any of

1119
01:43:22.960 --> 01:43:26.240
these subjects, this is your opportunity to do so. And is there anywhere else people can go

1120
01:43:26.240 --> 01:43:32.000
to find you if they're interested in you? I mean, our website is gdba.com and probably Gavin

1121
01:43:32.000 --> 01:43:37.120
DeBecker.com works. The website is I don't even solicit new clients. We don't have any marketing

1122
01:43:37.120 --> 01:43:42.080
or anything like that. The website is there for one purpose, which is attracting candidates for

1123
01:43:42.080 --> 01:43:46.960
employment because we are hiring a lot of people all the time. So that's what the website does,

1124
01:43:46.960 --> 01:43:50.320
but there may be other information there that's valuable for people. I don't know. Well,

1125
01:43:50.320 --> 01:43:55.440
if anyone's young and fit strong and wants to work with Gavin, then I'll link the website below

1126
01:43:55.440 --> 01:43:59.040
as well to see all of the jobs available. Gavin, thank you so much. It certainly, I mean,

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there's so many things that I blow my mind, but one of the most important things for me is actually

1128
01:44:02.320 --> 01:44:08.880
just this lesson about intuition. And that even in that to listen to it more and to be more

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01:44:10.000 --> 01:44:18.400
upfront with people when I intuition isn't telling me something because you're right. I think

1130
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we're all very good at tuning the volume of our intuition down and society teaches us to

1131
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gasslet ourselves and double guess. Gavin, thank you. Thank you too. And thanks for what you're doing.

1132
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You are one of my teachers as well, young men. I get to say it's 71. Thank you.

1133
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YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next

1134
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based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says that this video is the perfect

1135
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video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check this video out. I bet you,

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you might love it.