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Am I going to hell?

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Yes.

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But here's the thing, everybody is going to hell.

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And it's not because they don't believe in God.

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And look, I'm a historian and a theologian.

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So I study ancient biblical manuscripts.

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And if you truly understand what this book is saying,

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I don't want you to experience that.

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This is not a place I want to go.

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So what do I do about that?

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It's not about trying to earn my way into heaven.

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It's not about checking off.

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I read the Bible as many times.

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I didn't lie, I didn't steal, I didn't cheat.

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Like, it's none of that.

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But here's the problem.

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Unfortunately, we bought the lie that we are the some of our actions.

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Where we're chasing after things that aren't going to give us what we actually need.

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Which is also why we live in a world that is lacking in purpose and meaning.

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But the part that I've always struggled with is that the answer being religion

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as an antidote to that feeling.

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Because I require a really high standard of evidence.

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Sure.

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Because of the way that I am.

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Well, I think not only can it provide an antidote, it can provide the antidote.

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And I'll explain why.

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But how can we trust human accounts of these things?

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And then how do you take people to agree that there's clearly something

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missing to believing that what's written in the Bible is the thing that should guide my life?

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But also.

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Do you have any doubt?

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Oh, of course.

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Especially when there are times of struggle and pain and suffering.

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Like the whole Epstein thing right now.

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We are seeing examples of true evil.

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So there are moments where I think, how could there be a good God?

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However, from my investigation, I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that there is actual evidence

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for the existence of God, the historical reliability of the Bible,

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and the philosophical explanations for meaning and purpose.

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And what is that?

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First, we have some of the most persuasive evidence one can receive.

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Guys, I've got a favour to ask before this episode begins.

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69% of you that listen to the show frequently haven't yet hit the follow button.

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The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed.

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So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes,

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I would love you to know.

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And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button.

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But also, the fact that I think what 41% of you have chosen to follow the show that listen to it regularly

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is the reason why we've been able to improve everything.

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It's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make the show better.

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I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this one right now

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and hit that follow button.

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Thank you so, so, so much.

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Wesley, I have this fascinating graph in front of me here.

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And it shows several things that I find to be really, really interesting.

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One of them is that as of 2024, the decline of religion has started to level off and actually increase a little bit.

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And now 63% of US adults identify as Christian, which is roughly 160 million people.

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In 2025, Bible sales hit a 21 year high in the United States with 19 million units sold.

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Weekly Bible reading amongst US adults has increased to 42%, which is up 12% since 2024.

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And in 2024, Christian and gospel music streams in the US increased by roughly 20% according to the Washington Times.

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Wesley, what is going on in society if we zoom out?

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I think we're in a unique bubble where we found ourselves in a time frame where we're connected more than ever.

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We've kind of come out of a period of time where the New Atheism is very, very popular.

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You had Dawkins, Daniel, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and they made a big impact in the early 2000s.

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I think we should probably just give some color to what New Atheism is.

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Sure, yeah.

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I've actually got a graph here, which I'll throw up on the screen, which shows the rise and then the fall of New Atheism.

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I was pulled in by New Atheism.

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And that meant that I, and again, I should probably preface my beliefs because people are going to want to know what my bias is when I'm asking questions.

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I grew up in a very Christian household up until the age of 18.

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I then became agnostic slash atheist when I start consuming a lot of this stuff from Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and all of these people.

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And then I find myself at a point now where I'm just open-minded and curious.

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But I have lots of questions.

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Yeah, you had these individuals who are writing these very influential works.

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But I sometimes wonder whether the New Atheism movement worked a lot more effectively in print than it did in actual real life.

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Like in terms of the practicality of the application of the things that we're being talked about, especially in regards to meaning,

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if you apply ideas like you being a product of timeless matter of chance,

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what does that actually give you in terms of the ultimate identity questions?

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And so I think that's true in a lot of circumstances where you have these seeds that are planted.

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And they grow and they produce trees that produce fruit that are kind of hard to digest in their actual application.

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And along with that, we have a world that's very complex, we're more connected than we ever have been.

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I don't know if we're truly, we were ever truly meant to know as much information as we do,

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especially about things that are going on around the world and things that are hard to comprehend.

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And so what I think that all kind of adds up to is people asking questions about,

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okay, I'm here, I'm right now trying to figure out what's going on.

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How do I actually find out the answers to a lot of these questions that just go beyond the here and the now that I'm experiencing?

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This is what individuals like James K. Smith called the dynamics of disenchantment,

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where people are struggling with these transcendent questions,

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questions that are metaphysical that go beyond just the here and the now and the world.

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Why is the three pounds of gray matter in my brain able to comprehend the complexities of the universe?

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How do I, how do I come up with a solution to that problem?

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So I think that's part of it. I think it's kind of moving on in a world that just is probably more messy than it's ever been.

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A lot of countries, the UK, Europe, Canada, America, all of these western countries,

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they were founded on these Judeo-Christian ethics of foundations that come from the old and the New Testament,

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what we call the Bible.

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And a lot of people kind of attempted to divorce the religious aspect from the societies

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and societies became less and less overtly religious in those natures.

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And then a lot of people saw that their parents were no longer going to church,

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like the Bible wasn't part of kind of the household any longer.

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And I talked to a lot of young people who look at that and they say in almost like a rebellion against their parents,

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they're now interested in that.

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They're parents rebelled by disassociating from religion.

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And now I wonder if there's part of a rebellion in kind of looking back and trying to reclaim some of that religious stuff.

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I think in part as well, this younger generation, Gen Z's and I guess to some extent it's also millennials,

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have been told to live more individualistic lives and that's really been glamorized like beer and boss.

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Now we work remotely and stand on your own two feet.

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And we're even seeing people getting into sort of relationships later and later in their lives and having less children.

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So they're more, it appears people are more unanchored than they've ever been.

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And that was to some degree glamorized.

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But it also appears that when we are unanchored, when we don't have responsibilities or we're not part of something,

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mental health issues are quick to follow.

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For this generation, they're suffering the most with those types of mental health issues.

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And then one would assert that they would therefore be searching more for answers to some of these existential questions.

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Expressive individualism.

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I think it rose. That's the kind of the terminology in sociological literature that they refer to it.

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But I think you touched on a good point in that, like as we've removed God,

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part of the intellectual enlightenment was that we would move away from the shackles of religiosity

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and the concept of a creator.

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And that would lead us into a utopia.

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And I think the more and more we've removed that from society,

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that hasn't decreased our levels of anxiety and depression and meaning, I think it increased it.

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Yeah. And especially celebrity worship, social media, building a following of your own,

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like sort of low key narcissism has made us more and more and more important.

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That seems to correlate with worse and worse and worse mental health when you start to become more individualistic

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and think more and more about yourself and self-importance versus others and a bigger picture.

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I think we are created for community.

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I think we are, as human beings, a creature that is created for community.

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Ultimately, by cart on the table as a Christian,

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because I believe we are created in the image of a God who exists in a set of living, loving relationships.

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That's what the Trinity is.

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When we talk about that idea within Christian theology,

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God exists in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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And so being created in the image of God, part of that is you are created for relationship.

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And so in a society that's continually removing us, you need to be an influencer.

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You're influencing everybody else.

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When I think we're not created to be lone wolves or lone rangers.

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We're created to live amongst community and have that be something that likewise gives us fulfillment.

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It's not that people who are leaders are rise to the top or wrong by any stretch.

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But in a society where we're alone together,

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because we are sitting behind computer screens.

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And we're talking to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, in some cases.

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But we're secluded.

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I think that does something to our souls.

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Because we were made to be in relationship with other people.

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I agree with everything you've said as it relates to the sort of crisis of meaning in society.

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And I also agree with many of your reasons as to why that's occurred.

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The part that I've always struggled with is then the answer being Christianity.

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Sure.

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Any other religion.

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Sure.

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I agree with you know so many of the things you've said.

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But then my brain has I think, especially after the age of 18 when I started reading about all this new atheist stuff

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and these questions of evil and am I going to hell and all these other things.

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I've not been able to get there.

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But I'm having this conversation with you today because I am open-minded.

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And although I've got difficult questions to ask, I'm in pursuit of the truth,

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not any particular ideology or answer.

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So how do you take someone like me who agrees that there's clearly something missing,

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who believes that there's something transcendent.

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It can be a crazy thing to assume that this is it, I think.

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How do you take them from this position to believing that what's written in this book in front of me, the Bible,

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is the thing that should guide my life.

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Right.

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Because again, I say that I'm going to say this again.

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I think I require really high standard of evidence because of the way that I am.

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Yeah.

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I think there's a historical case forward which I'm very much invested in because my training formally is in historiography.

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I study ancient biblical manuscripts and their kind of reliability and fidelity over the last couple of millennia.

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So looking at some of those manuscripts that actually can trace back to the actual timeframe of Jesus

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and answering questions like, is what we have now, what the original author has wrote back then?

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So I think there's a historical question to it.

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And I, in my own personal investigation, genuinely think that the evidence, the publicly available evidence,

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gets us back to, not only the timeframe of Jesus, but to early eyewitness testimony,

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the proclaims that this first century, Jewish Itiner at Rabbi who was walking the dusty streets of first century,

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made these claims and then there is sufficient evidence to say that he predicted his own death and resurrection and did it.

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How do I know Jesus Christ was real?

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And then how do I know what's written in that book is real versus just some guys thousands of years ago made a book?

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Yeah. So that is a question of historical reliability.

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So there are a couple different ways we could go about it.

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First, we have four biographical accounts of Jesus's life, which is very unusual.

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So we call them the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

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Those aren't actually our earliest source material for the life of Jesus.

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That comes in the person of Paul.

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Paul is actually writing before the gospel accounts.

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And he is someone who was hostile originally to the Christian message, and he is persecuting Christians.

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He comes along and he has this radical conversion experience when he's traveling to Damascus, where he says he's literally thrown off a horse,

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God's voice, and it's Jesus, and he says, Paul, why are you persecuting me?

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And then he writes these things about his experience and then ultimately goes and connects with the individuals who are,

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who we call the disciples who are like this, this close Jesus community and connects with them.

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So he's our earliest source, but then you have these gospel accounts, these these biographies.

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And the gospels are interesting because they fit within the historical framework of ancient Greco-Roman biography.

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So let me give you an example.

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The most well-known person in Jesus' day was the emperor. His name is Tiberius.

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Tiberius has four biographical accounts that are written about him.

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Valleus particulars, Cassiodio, Sutonius, and Tacitus.

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So this is the four guys, okay?

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And what's interesting in sort of a comparative analysis of Jesus and those people is that they're all writing around the same time period.

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So the biographies are coming from the first century for Jesus.

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They're coming in this time period where you have an early eyewitness testimony for the emperor, for the most well-known person in the ancient world.

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All of the sources except for Valleus particulars are coming from the second century.

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Valleus particulars is coming from the first century. He's very close to the source, but he's a paid propagandist.

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So even though he's the earliest, he's the least reliable. And for the gospels, that comes around to the fourth century.

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So there's a comparison with the source material for someone like Jesus.

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Even though we really shouldn't have anything about him because he's kind of a nobody from nowhere in terms of the Roman Empire and the grand scheme of things.

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But we have a phenomenal amount of source information for his life.

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I mean, this is one of the things I discovered when I went through that new atheist phase was that really everybody kind of agrees that there was a guy called Jesus from Nazareth and that he was a real historical person.

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I guess the part in dispute was whether things like his resurrection actually happened or whether he was just a spiritual leader back then, like we have spiritual leaders today.

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And I think one of the one of the things that I got really stuck on when I was reading about Jesus in the Bible was there appears to be quite a significant gap between his life, his death and then the writings that go into the Bible.

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And for me and my head, I was like, well, if you know, if something happened in my life 50 years ago, I mean, I'm in 33, but if something happened 50 years ago, I would not be able to recount it.

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Frankly, I can't recount what happened last week accurately, let alone like decades ago.

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You must have heard this argument before.

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Yes.

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How do you square the circle here?

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So there are a few things going on. First, we live in a hyperliterate culture. We are writing everything down.

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The ancient world was far less of a literate culture. They were an oral culture.

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These stories would have been passed in large groups at time frames, especially if we're talking about the biographical material of Jesus is actually written in a closer time frame than the majority of anyone else.

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What was that gap?

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It's about 40 to 60 years.

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So I really want to, I imagine there's some people listening that have probably never read the Bible.

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And I really want to explain to them what this book is in the simplest terms.

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I can open your Bible.

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Yeah, of course.

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So is that like chapters in here?

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Yeah. So the Bible is, though we now have it in one book, is 66 books written over a period of about 1600 years on three different continents by close to 40 different authors and three different languages.

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So I've just opened your Bible.

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And there's one section that says the Old Testament. There's another section that says the New Testament.

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What am I looking at?

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Like, is this God's words? Is this a bunch of people's stories that have been compiled together?

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What is the Old Testament? What's the New Testament? What's the difference?

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Yeah, so the Old Testament is the Hebrew scriptures. So that's the scriptures of the Jewish people.

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Okay.

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So that is, you know, it starts in what's referred to as the Torah, which are the first five books or the five books of Moses.

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And then that goes into time frame all the way up to the period of the Persians.

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So that's a certain time frame?

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Yes. And they've gone and collected books from that time frame with writings from that time frame?

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Yeah. So the ancient Jewish people had, and remember all of these books, they would have circulated as independent writings.

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Okay. So we start to see things like this happen in the fourth century. Prior to that, everything's in independent scrolls.

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So there's an understanding when even you get them all sort of put in one unit, that would have contained the scriptures, the word of God.

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More so than like this is the word of God.

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The reason why I am unapologetic and very open about my total maneuverity is because often in these conversations, you end up kind of preaching to the choir.

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Sure.

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If you know what I mean, and there's a huge amount of people, especially younger people that went through that new atheist movement, where maybe born in the 2000s that are now 26 years old.

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Right.

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That have never read the Bible, have never even opened one, have no idea what it is.

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They just think it's this kind of like book of stories.

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Yeah.

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But the first, you call these books, I was thinking of them like chapters.

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The first one in the Old Testament is Genesis.

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Who wrote Genesis?

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Was that a guy or was that God?

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So the idea is in Christianity, the terminology is what's called verbal, plenary, inspiration.

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So verbal, it's spoken, plenary, it's like written down and then it inspired.

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So there are human authors to all these books.

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Okay, so humans wrote these chapters, but they were inspired by God.

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So yes, so the understanding, so in the Bible itself, Peter says that men spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

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So there's a historical context to all of these, like the history of this period of time, of the nation of Israel as they were being led by particular rulers.

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And where does Jesus show up?

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Jesus is the New Testament.

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If someone's never read the Old Testament, what is that about?

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It's just describing the time?

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It's a bunch of different things.

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There's a whole bunch of genres of literature.

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So some of it is history, some of it is poetry, some of it is what's called wisdom literature.

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And who decided that these, it looks like this, I don't know, it looks like there's about 40 books in the Old Testament.

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39 books that are in the Old Testament.

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Who decided that those were going to be part of the Old Testament?

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Because I'm sure that there was lots of other writings at the time that could have been included.

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Yeah, so by the time that Jesus is around, there's approximately an agreement of what is considered scripture.

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By who?

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By the Jews themselves.

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So the Jews decided which 38 books to put in?

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Yes.

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So you have conversations by individuals like there's a guy named Josephus who is writing at the end of the first century.

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Part of what he argues is that the Jewish people don't have kind of an innumerable number of religious texts, like the Greeks do.

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They have a specific number and he uses this terminology that they were laid up in the temple.

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So the idea is that these are the books, they're housed in the temple, and they're a set number.

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And he gives the number of the same number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet, 22.

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So you usually see this 22 or 23 number, but they group them differently.

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And he gives an argument that one of the reasons that we can find a timeline for what the Jews consider scripture is he says,

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there's nothing written before Moses, and there's nothing written after the time of artiserxes, which is the Persian Empire.

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So the book of Esther in the Bible is that time period.

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So though there are writings after that, there's this agreement that the voice of God in say the prophets giving you the say of the Lord's statement,

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like communicating messages to the people of Israel has ceased.

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But the Jewish canon, though there's like a closing of it, there's a soft closing, there's an idea that there's going to be a new covenant.

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God's going to make new promises with his people, and so there are going to be more writings.

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Okay, so my understanding of that is that he made the case that God is no longer communicating with people to write these books.

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At least that there was a stop point at Malachi.

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So it sometimes referred to as the 400 years of silence for that reason.

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From the point of Jesus' death, what book from the New Testament is written last, and how big is that gap?

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That's a debate.

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Okay, what's the debate?

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So the debate, it's a question if John's gospel is written before 70D or after 70D, and if it's written after 70D, it's written in the 90s.

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So it's written pretty far afterwards.

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How many years?

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So if Jesus dies in 33.

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Okay, so about 60.

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Yeah.

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Okay, fine.

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Yeah, so at minimum, I think like 99% of historians, biblical scholars, classes, would argue that the 27 books of the New Testament are written in the first century.

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And so in that sense, they're in the lifetime of the eyewitnesses to a certain degree.

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And there's evidence even within some of the gospels where you have these names thrown out, kind of randomly.

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And part of the thinking of that is that this is like citing your sources.

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At one point, when Jesus is carrying the cross to Galgotha, he kind of stumbles and they get another person to carry his cross for a little bit.

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And that person is Joseph Avera Mathia.

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Well, one of the gospels names one of Joseph Avera Mathia's son by name.

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And the thinking is that this is probably someone who's well known within the early Jesus community.

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And the purpose of naming that person randomly is to say he's actually well known, go ask him.

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I mean, logically, there's quite a risk of Chinese whispers to some degree.

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As you were speaking, I was trying to think about things that I experienced when I was younger, like with my grandmother before she passed away.

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And I was trying to accurately recount those memories.

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I was thinking of like going to a house and then I remember one day she gave me some money.

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But I can't remember what she gave it to me for.

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And I can't remember how much she gave me. I know she put it in a card.

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And this was only like 20 years ago.

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Yeah.

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And so if I was to write about that today, I would be filling in some gaps.

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Especially, especially, this was the other thing that I was struggled with is like, especially in a world where we didn't understand science.

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Now, my grandmother put it in a card and it was like, I opened it.

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And the way she did it was often as a surprise.

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So in a world where I didn't understand physics or science, I might have concluded that my grandmother did something like magical.

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You know, at a time when we didn't understand anything about really much about the nature of the universe and planets and the solar system and physics.

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So is that a risk that some of the things that have been transmuted by God into this book in front of me?

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Are prone to Chinese whispers and or just like a lack of understanding about the nature of the world.

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Like the resurrection, for example.

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Yeah.

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So this is in my field referred to as mythological drift.

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So how do we factor in making sure that mythological drift doesn't happen?

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I think there are a couple things related to what you said.

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First off, I think I would be careful in trying to ascribe the ancient world as being prescientific and therefore largely say ignorant.

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I mean, even when the angel comes to Mary in the gospel story and says, you're going to be with child, Mary's objection to the angel is a scientific one.

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I haven't met the minimum requirements of how babies are made.

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Therefore, I can't be pregnant.

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So she's not dumb.

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She's not just at face value accepting that, you know, well, I believe in angels.

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And so this kind of magic thing can happen.

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She's still objecting scientifically, even though she might not have the terminology to understand

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like the complexities of childbirth and embryology and all of that.

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So I would say, you know, this is what the writer CS Lewis calls chronological snobbery.

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That he says, we know we need to be careful of not to ascribe the ancient world as being more ignorant and stupid than, you know, just because we are a product of the enlightenment and we understand scientific things now.

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The second thing is I think the Chinese whispers or the telephone game or whatever you call it is a good is a good kind of case study.

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I think we're at false short is that if you play the telephone game, if you play Chinese whispers, there are rules in order to corrupt the message.

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So you have to whisper.

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You can only say it once.

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You have to do it one person to one person in an oral culture.

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You would have been hearing these stories constantly.

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So when some of these stories are told, they're being told within a lifetime where there could have been individuals who say the story of the feeding of the 5,000, that's a lot of people.

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So there's a lot of witnesses to this particular event.

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So if you're writing this down, there's an aspect of there are people out there who could verify what is being said, at least orally, not necessarily like literally.

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Likewise, what we have in a gospel account is particularly after Jesus's death, when the disciples were claiming his resurrection, they go back to Jerusalem, which is the scene of the crime.

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So they go back to the exact place where Jesus was crucified and start telling people he was risen from the dead.

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If there is some aspect of, say, disingenuousness and making up a story, don't go back to the place where everybody could have seen that thing happen to that degree.

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So in one sense, Chinese whispers is a faulty analogy in that it's less like one person whispering into another's ear and more like a hundred people in a room all saying communicating the thing verbally and then getting the other people to repeat it back to them and then corroborating with the other individuals of what's going on.

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Now, I think your point in the story of your grandmother and the letter N is a good one. How do we remember things? Do you remember 9-11?

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Yes, I do. Yes, and I was in the UK at the time.

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Could you tell me a little bit more vividly what you were doing on 9-11 compared to your grandmother and the letter?

357
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Yes, I could. I remember coming home from school and watching it on the screen and my dad having it on the screen and I was just looking at the screen.

358
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Yeah, me too. Whereas I couldn't tell you much of what else happened during an average day in that year. I could tell you what happened on September 11, 2001.

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And that's because of the nature of what was going on. And I think when we're talking about the gospel stories in particular, first you have what I genuinely believe are eyewitness accounts from at least the source information coming from a group who would have heard Jesus be preaching these things multiple times in multiple different settings.

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Like it's probably likely myself as an itinerant. I have given the same talk on a particular subject quite a few times. And I joke with my wife that she could give my talk on the historical reliability of the Bible herself.

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You know, if I'm sick, I'll just send my wife, right? Because she's heard so many times. I think that's the case that's going on with the disciples.

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There's an aspect of they would have heard say the Beatitudes, yeah, that Jesus most likely more than once is the case because that's just the nature of not just they tend to speak but even traveling rabbis and in the age of world.

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And then you have this event that is kind of earth shattering in terms of their narrative of who they are. They've been traveling with this rabbi for three years straight.

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They've been hearing his teaching. They've been seeing miracles at least that are recorded in the gospels.

365
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Pretty phenomenal things. And then he gets taken and he's murdered publicly and they think it's over.

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They think, you know, there are other messianic movements in the age of world, most of which you and I aren't hearing on a regular basis because when those individuals die, their movement dies with them.

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And so that's what they think is happening, right? So they think, okay, we're done. So the story is they're hiding in this upper room and they're scared.

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In fact, it's the women who take on the responsibility of like going and figuring things out, which in terms of the time period is actually an embarrassing fact because of the kind of cultural dynamics of what's going on.

369
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And so you have the disciples who think it's over. What is it that has 11 scared disciples because one of them Judas goes and he kills himself.

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11 scared disciples hiding in an upper room thinking that's it. We're done. We might as well, you know, Peter James and John might as well just go back to being fishermen because that's all she wrote.

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To then having the boldness to go out and actually proclaim this message ultimately to the level of persecution and hardship that they endure for the rest of their lives.

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Well, it's that their rabbi then shows up alive again. And so at minimum, I think what we can say is that this is a pretty drastic event that takes place in their life.

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It's a comparative to a 911 event for them. And so in terms of like the memory imprint that they are experiencing for the murder of their rabbi of their teacher.

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And then something happening where they then go for the rest of their lives, the martyrdom stories are a little bit tricky in terms of their historical reliability.

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I think a few of them we can say did happen. A lot of them is kind of up in the air, but at minimum, they suffered persecution.

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So the story in the Bible is that he was killed on the cross, murdered on the cross, and then he was put into a tomb. And then who saw him come out of the tomb?

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So nobody physically sees him come out of the tomb, but the women go to the tomb in the morning and on the third day and the tomb is empty.

378
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And so there are four accounts, right? And I think it's interesting also that we have four accounts that kind of give different angles on the stories.

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They're not, it's not as if they got together and they corroborated and all gave the same story. The fact is that we have four accounts that kind of capitalize on different angles, which the differentiation in detail, I think actually gives credibility to the reliability of it.

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Because if they were all telling the same thing, you could argue that they got together and they colluded. They don't do that. In fact, they touch on different aspects of the story.

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Are these people saying that they saw him walk out? Are they saying that they just saw an empty? What is the claims being made about his resurrection from these witnesses?

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Yeah, so the tomb is empty.

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And so it's interesting in one of the accounts, Mary's at the tomb, and she actually talks to Jesus, but she confuses him with a gardener.

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Now, I think it's interesting that she doesn't confuse the gardener with Jesus. She confuses Jesus with the gardener.

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Like she thinks that this person she's talking to isn't Jesus. She doesn't recognize him at first. And she asks him, you know, what happened? Why is the tomb opened? Where did the body go?

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And then there's also an account of an angel appearing and saying, why are you looking for the living among the dead? He's not here. He's risen.

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And then they go back to the disciples who are hiding in this upper room. Mary says, you know, the tomb is empty. I've met Jesus.

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Jesus is not in the tomb. He's risen. And some of them don't even believe her. They think she's crazy.

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Now, we don't have like an eyewitness account of the tomb being open. And this is actually an embarrassing fact in the ancient world.

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So some of those other gospels that I mentioned earlier that are written later on, gospel of Thomas, Judas, Mary, Peter.

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There's one of them, the gospel of Peter, which is actually trying to remedy this fact that women are the first eyewitnesses to the empty tomb, which is an embarrassing fact in the ancient world.

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If that's not true, if they made it up, it seems very unlikely that they would have done that because women are not considered good eyewitnesses, either Greco-Roman or unfortunately Jewish society in this time period.

393
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So the gospel of Peter tries to remedy the situation by having all of the right people in the right place at the right time.

394
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It has the Jewish and the Roman officials camping out in front of the tomb when it actually happens and then has this recounted the story of the literally the stone moving, Jesus coming out, all these things.

395
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Now, we know it's not historically reliable. We know that because of when it was written, we also know that on the eve of Passover, the priests would not be camping out in front of a dead body. It's just historically anachronistic.

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But it is an account of a literary source later on that is embarrassed by what we find in here about the biographical information of the empty tomb.

397
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So is it just two women that said they met Jesus in some form after his death, marrying one of them, which was his mother?

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No.

399
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Who's Mary?

400
00:34:58.500 --> 00:35:03.500
Mary, so there are a number of Mary's in the New Testament. This was Mary Magdalene.

401
00:35:03.500 --> 00:35:04.500
Okay.

402
00:35:04.500 --> 00:35:06.500
Yeah, who was like a close associate?

403
00:35:06.500 --> 00:35:07.500
Like a friend.

404
00:35:07.500 --> 00:35:08.500
Yeah.

405
00:35:08.500 --> 00:35:12.500
So a friend, and then was there, is it just her that says she saw him?

406
00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:14.500
There was a group of them.

407
00:35:14.500 --> 00:35:15.500
A group of them.

408
00:35:15.500 --> 00:35:16.500
Yeah, of the women.

409
00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:19.500
Okay, and they were separate when they saw him. They were on the right.

410
00:35:19.500 --> 00:35:20.500
They were together.

411
00:35:20.500 --> 00:35:22.500
So one of the gospel only mentions Mary.

412
00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:24.500
That leaves the gospel, John.

413
00:35:24.500 --> 00:35:30.500
But like I said before, it implies that there are more because she says we don't know where they put the body.

414
00:35:30.500 --> 00:35:31.500
Okay.

415
00:35:31.500 --> 00:35:43.500
So though that account only has her recounting, it implies that there are others and then the other gospels have more women that are going to the tomb.

416
00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:46.500
As a percentage, what degree of certainty do you have of that?

417
00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:50.500
He was resurrected and that he was who he said he was.

418
00:35:50.500 --> 00:35:54.500
Because I agree with you that this character clearly existed, like Jesus clearly existed.

419
00:35:54.500 --> 00:35:58.500
I personally believe that he was killed, probably on a cross.

420
00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:02.500
But then you get to this point of resurrection which you have to then believe in something supernatural.

421
00:36:02.500 --> 00:36:03.500
Yeah.

422
00:36:03.500 --> 00:36:05.500
So what's the probability you'd have assigned to it?

423
00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:08.500
I feel it was like likely, unlikely, very likely.

424
00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:15.500
They're all likely because I think that what the gospel authors are doing is communicating truth.

425
00:36:15.500 --> 00:36:28.500
And I don't ultimately see an overabundance of reason why they would write what they wrote other than actually recounting a story of what took place.

426
00:36:28.500 --> 00:36:31.500
I grew up in a place called Plymouth in Newcastle, born in Africa.

427
00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:35.500
And in my local park, there was this big poster on the wall about the white lady.

428
00:36:35.500 --> 00:36:38.500
I'll put it up on the screen. It's like a big legend in our city.

429
00:36:38.500 --> 00:36:42.500
It's this park and everybody says that they see this white lady in the park that was killed.

430
00:36:42.500 --> 00:36:45.500
And actually there's a big board explaining her life.

431
00:36:45.500 --> 00:36:48.500
But it's all just accounts of people that say they've seen her.

432
00:36:48.500 --> 00:36:54.500
You have things like the Loch Ness Monster in Scotland as well where there's been 1500 sightings of this big monster in the river.

433
00:36:54.500 --> 00:37:03.500
And even up until recent times, 2025, there was a surge of sightings of the Loch Ness Monster called the black mass in the bay.

434
00:37:03.500 --> 00:37:07.500
And that started in 565 AD.

435
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:19.500
One of the things that I've always sort of struggled with when I think about humans saying they saw something is we still today have sightings of UFOs and Loch Ness monsters and white ladies in parks that become legend.

436
00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:27.500
And actually with the Loch Ness Monster, it's pretty interesting that even today there are sightings all the time of this monster that lives in the river.

437
00:37:27.500 --> 00:37:31.500
Now I think maybe you both agree that there's no monster in the river.

438
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:39.500
But there's something going on. There's something in human nature where we do have like a proclivity to engage in supernatural sightings.

439
00:37:39.500 --> 00:37:43.500
And then once we've heard it once, we then reinforce that we've seen it too.

440
00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:50.500
And even as like a young man, I mean maybe you believe this, but I believe that there was a woman that would stand on the landing of my home.

441
00:37:50.500 --> 00:37:58.500
And like wake me up and I would run and tell my parents that the lady stood on the landing again with people watching this, I think that was actually a lady.

442
00:37:58.500 --> 00:38:07.500
But you know what I'm getting at is like, how can we trust human accounts of these things when clearly humans have an ability to make things up that aren't real in some situations?

443
00:38:07.500 --> 00:38:17.500
Sure. Part of the answer to the question is one of the evidence for Jesus' resurrection is the fact that you and I Stephen are still talking about it almost 2000 years later.

444
00:38:17.500 --> 00:38:22.500
I said this to me, I was telling you before about my Christian friend. He was like, why are we still talking about it? Well, we can't prove it.

445
00:38:22.500 --> 00:38:27.500
Right. It didn't happen. So we're always going to talk about it. There's never going to be, I mean unless something happens.

446
00:38:27.500 --> 00:38:33.500
Right. The difference is that there are these other messianic movements that happen in the ancient world.

447
00:38:33.500 --> 00:38:42.500
And so like Simon Bargeura, the reason why we're not talking about Simon Bargeura as a messianic figure is because he died and his movement died with him.

448
00:38:43.500 --> 00:38:51.500
And his disciples didn't go out and then proclaim his continued message until like to their own detriment.

449
00:38:51.500 --> 00:39:00.500
So I would say a few things. I would say liars make poor martyrs in that you will die for something you believe is true.

450
00:39:00.500 --> 00:39:05.500
But the chances of you dying for something you know is not true or less likely.

451
00:39:05.500 --> 00:39:19.500
So if we're talking about the disciples and especially if what they're getting for this particular proclamation is they're being ostracized from their own communities.

452
00:39:19.500 --> 00:39:30.500
Pagan, Gentile communities and the Jewish communities because remember there was a persecution on both sides because it was at a certain point in time continuing to say that Jesus was the Messiah.

453
00:39:30.500 --> 00:39:37.500
And on top of that that he was God himself was not very popular within the early Jesus communities.

454
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:42.500
There's a complexity to the fact that people usually lie.

455
00:39:42.500 --> 00:39:53.500
You look at cultic figures, right? Cult leaders usually do things for prominence or money or sex or influence.

456
00:39:53.500 --> 00:39:57.500
The interesting thing about the early disciples is they get none of that.

457
00:39:57.500 --> 00:40:00.500
In fact, they almost get the complete opposite of that.

458
00:40:00.500 --> 00:40:04.500
In that Jesus says you're going to be persecuted.

459
00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:09.500
You're going to be put in front of tribunals and you're going to be interrogated.

460
00:40:09.500 --> 00:40:19.500
And that's exactly what happens. And they know that there is a danger to this because we have in the book of Acts which is the book after the gospels.

461
00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:22.500
We have a recounting of the first martyr of Stephen.

462
00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:31.500
I think of like someone like Martin Luther King or Gandhi is being leaders from history that appeared to be from what I've understood very selfless and actually realized that they were all going to die.

463
00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:37.500
I'll never forget this speech actually where Martin Luther King says I've been to the mountain top. He was a very religious man, very Christian man.

464
00:40:37.500 --> 00:40:41.500
And says I've been to the mountain top. You guys get there but I don't get there with you.

465
00:40:41.500 --> 00:40:45.500
Right. And then from the information I had he died very, very shortly thereafter.

466
00:40:45.500 --> 00:40:49.500
And as he's saying I don't get there with you. He's emotional in his face. You see him crying.

467
00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:54.500
The video was very persuasive of Christianity by the way.

468
00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:57.500
And then he's pulled off stage and then he shot thereafter.

469
00:40:57.500 --> 00:41:06.500
Feels like a man that knew he wasn't going to live much longer but was willing to put his cause ahead of his own mortality.

470
00:41:06.500 --> 00:41:09.500
And I guess Jesus was doing the same.

471
00:41:09.500 --> 00:41:13.500
In a certain regard in terms of the disciples though I think like if they know this isn't true.

472
00:41:13.500 --> 00:41:19.500
If they know that there's this kind of this has been mythological drift if things have been exaggerated.

473
00:41:19.500 --> 00:41:26.500
Why then especially experiencing that persecution seeing their friends die in that kind of setting.

474
00:41:26.500 --> 00:41:29.500
Do they continue to go on and do it?

475
00:41:29.500 --> 00:41:31.500
I think they definitely believed it was true.

476
00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:42.500
Yes. I think at minimum whatever's going on they like you look at some of these secular historians and they look at the data and they say whatever's going on the disciples believe something happened.

477
00:41:42.500 --> 00:41:44.500
Yeah, they saw something of course.

478
00:41:44.500 --> 00:41:55.500
And so the I just think that the explanations of the alternatives of that actually happening are insufficient in so far as how they actually explain the data.

479
00:41:55.500 --> 00:41:57.500
Do you have any doubt?

480
00:41:57.500 --> 00:41:58.500
Of course.

481
00:41:58.500 --> 00:42:00.500
Okay. So you have at least even one percent doubt.

482
00:42:00.500 --> 00:42:01.500
Oh definitely.

483
00:42:01.500 --> 00:42:06.500
And I think especially when there are times of things that are far more existential than historical.

484
00:42:06.500 --> 00:42:14.500
When times of like struggle and pain and suffering and I look at the world and I look at how messy it is.

485
00:42:14.500 --> 00:42:16.500
Children who die young.

486
00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:18.500
People who abuse all these things.

487
00:42:18.500 --> 00:42:23.500
There are moments where I think how could there be a good God.

488
00:42:23.500 --> 00:42:25.500
I mean, I'm not immune to doubt.

489
00:42:25.500 --> 00:42:36.500
And the interesting thing that I find about the Bible is that the Bible is very open to the God of the Bible being open to us coming to him with our doubts.

490
00:42:36.500 --> 00:42:44.500
Now one third of the book of Psalms, which is like right in the middle of the Bible, this kind of poetic literature if you want to call it that,

491
00:42:44.500 --> 00:42:47.500
are sometimes referred to as the lament or the complaint Psalms.

492
00:42:47.500 --> 00:42:49.500
It's things like Psalm 22.

493
00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:52.500
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

494
00:42:52.500 --> 00:42:54.500
Why are you so far from me?

495
00:42:54.500 --> 00:42:58.500
I like, I cry out by day and I hear no answer.

496
00:42:58.500 --> 00:43:05.500
And I think what's interesting that I find with the Bible is its transparency in saying we're going to struggle.

497
00:43:05.500 --> 00:43:08.500
There's this really great story in the gospel of John.

498
00:43:08.500 --> 00:43:16.500
Well, it's in a couple of the instances of the gospels where John the Baptist, who's like, Jesus is cousin and good friend,

499
00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:19.500
he's been in prison because he's been speaking out against Herod.

500
00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:24.500
He's been being a little bit too verbal politically and so he gets taken and he's in prison.

501
00:43:24.500 --> 00:43:30.500
And though he's the one that baptized Jesus and said, you know, behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

502
00:43:30.500 --> 00:43:32.500
When he's in prison, he doubts.

503
00:43:32.500 --> 00:43:37.500
And he sends his disciples over to Jesus to ask, are you the Messiah?

504
00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:40.500
Are you the one we're waiting for or should we be waiting for another?

505
00:43:40.500 --> 00:43:48.500
Now in that interaction, Jesus actually says, John the Baptist is the greatest of all men born of women,

506
00:43:48.500 --> 00:43:50.500
which is basically everybody, right?

507
00:43:50.500 --> 00:43:57.500
And yet in that very same setting, John the Baptist is doubting that Jesus is who he says he is,

508
00:43:57.500 --> 00:44:01.500
because he's experiencing pain and suffering.

509
00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:07.500
On that point of using, you know, horrific things happening in the world and then having doubts,

510
00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:13.500
I think for me, that was one of the persuasive arguments of the like new atheist movement that I became a part of when I was like 18 years old,

511
00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:26.500
which was I think Richard Dawkins had said about, you know, if God is all loving, then why would he let a two-year-old kid in Africa have their eyeball eaten out from the inside by a parasite?

512
00:44:26.500 --> 00:44:33.500
Like if I could intervene with that, because you know, the assertion is that God is omnipotent or powerful and omniscient or present.

513
00:44:33.500 --> 00:44:37.500
If I could intervene with that as a human, I would stop that.

514
00:44:37.500 --> 00:44:43.500
And so if God is omnipotent or omnipotent or all powerful and omnipresent knows everything and is everywhere,

515
00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:47.500
then why wouldn't he intervene with the baby having its eyeball eaten out from the inside?

516
00:44:47.500 --> 00:44:58.500
Yeah, it's a good point and I think if there is an objection that is truly impactful on Christianity in the atheist corner,

517
00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:06.500
it is the problem of evil and always has been because it's far more of an emotional and existential question than it is an intellectual question.

518
00:45:06.500 --> 00:45:12.500
Now, part of the problem with it is that if we're talking about evil with a capital E, we're implying that there's a good with a capital G.

519
00:45:12.500 --> 00:45:22.500
And so I think we do run into an issue when saying that evil exists or implying that good exists and if we're implying that good exists,

520
00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:30.500
or implying that there's a moral law to adhere to, to call the good good and the evil evil and if there's a moral law, then it has to be a moral law giver.

521
00:45:30.500 --> 00:45:37.500
And that's where we come into issues with, is this subjective or is this objective?

522
00:45:37.500 --> 00:45:44.500
I think the atheist movement would argue that moral good is virtue of what helps me to survive.

523
00:45:44.500 --> 00:45:57.500
So like watching a small child suffering such a way, if I didn't feel anything bad about that, then I wouldn't have the wiring for survival because I wouldn't have the

524
00:45:57.500 --> 00:46:06.500
ability to defend a suffering child. If I don't have that, then I probably don't reproduce and I don't pass on my genes and then I'm selected out of existence.

525
00:46:06.500 --> 00:46:14.500
So that pain I feel when I see a child suffering is a function of my evolutionary mechanics that make me more likely to survive.

526
00:46:14.500 --> 00:46:19.500
And anyone that didn't have that wouldn't have survived and wouldn't be here now. So evolution, therefore, is the answer.

527
00:46:19.500 --> 00:46:30.500
I think that might suffice in certain instances. However, it's still sort of smuggling in moral categories into a biological explanation.

528
00:46:30.500 --> 00:46:40.500
So part of, I mean, you read Richard Dawkins, you read River out of Eden and he has that section where he talks about, you know, he shouldn't expect to see any rhyme or reason good or bad.

529
00:46:40.500 --> 00:46:59.500
You know, DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just isn't we dance to its music. And there's an aspect of Dawkins himself in that volume, at least at that time when he wrote it, articulating that at the end of it all, there is no such thing as actually you can't call that parasite in that that boys eye evil.

530
00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:14.500
You can say I don't like it, but to import this moral category of evil is actually to import an idea. And this is actually what Dawkins was criticized by by individuals like John Gray, the philosopher who taught at the London School of Economics.

531
00:47:14.500 --> 00:47:22.500
And he says, you know, you're a really great biologist, but then you want to impart actual intrinsic value to people.

532
00:47:22.500 --> 00:47:36.500
And if you're looking at a simple selfish DNA perspective, you can actually ascribe that because your DNA, your selfish DNA exists to carry on its selfish DNA.

533
00:47:36.500 --> 00:47:49.500
And so in one sense, that child has no bearing on you. Now, it might have like a protective mechanism where you want to figure out why the child got the parasite. And so you try to avoid that in order to not get the parasite yourself.

534
00:47:49.500 --> 00:48:01.500
But science can't actually give you an explanation for what the moral implications are in that instance. Let me give you an example.

535
00:48:01.500 --> 00:48:10.500
I think I understand the point there. It's essentially asserting that like, why does that child matter to me? Because my DNA should just be trying to take care of itself.

536
00:48:10.500 --> 00:48:22.500
I guess in biology, I don't always know who my child is, but also from an evolutionary perspective, if we were raised in communities and tribes, we took care of all of our children in the surroundings.

537
00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:25.500
I would take care of my brother's children, and he would take care of mine, therefore.

538
00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:32.500
Yeah. Yeah. And again, that goes back to the point of survival, which means that I'm more likely to survive if I take care of my community.

539
00:48:32.500 --> 00:48:51.500
Sort of. You read something like the origin of species, though, like Darwin himself, when he's articulating the survival of the fittest, there is an aspect of you shouldn't take care of those people.

540
00:48:52.500 --> 00:49:19.500
Because they're actually bringing the genetic gene pool down. So we see even in like the eugenics movement pulling a lot from individuals like Darwin in order to validate the fact that in order to carry on your selfish DNA, this idea of taking care of the marginalized and those with on the fringes of society and those who are the lesser than is is not evolutionary advantageous.

541
00:49:19.500 --> 00:49:25.500
Because survival of the fittest implies that the fittest should survive. And these are obviously not the fittest.

542
00:49:25.500 --> 00:49:47.500
It's actually a Judeo Christian ethic in the understanding of everybody having equal value that we should be taking care of people because they have intrinsic value, not extrinsic value, that allows us to then even import an idea of taking care of those who are not necessarily specifically related to me in mine.

543
00:49:47.500 --> 00:49:58.500
And it comes back to, okay, where are we grounding this objectivity in because there have been societies that have attempted to do it in like a might is right aspect.

544
00:49:58.500 --> 00:50:10.500
And you ground the objectivity of what we say is right in a society that says this is better for the most amount of individuals within a particular community.

545
00:50:11.500 --> 00:50:13.500
I think about Yvonne Noah.

546
00:50:13.500 --> 00:50:14.500
Yeah, Halari.

547
00:50:14.500 --> 00:50:23.500
We're in this book sapiens where he says that the real defining trait of our species versus other species was our ability to collaborate and basically scratch each other's backs.

548
00:50:23.500 --> 00:50:34.500
And that meant that we had evolutionary advantages because if we could work together in a big group and we could believe in stories and we believe in money and prison and governments, etc.

549
00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:38.500
We could band together and take on the lion or band together and take on the elephant or whatever.

550
00:50:38.500 --> 00:50:42.500
And it's actually that in part there you have like I need to take care of you.

551
00:50:42.500 --> 00:50:48.500
You need to take care of me and we're going to reciprocate that altruism and increase our survival chances.

552
00:50:48.500 --> 00:51:00.500
So again, that might explain why I care about that kid because the species that didn't, they would never been able to band together and take on the elephant.

553
00:51:01.500 --> 00:51:14.500
Yes, I think it's largely our modern perspective living in a society where we are starting on second base already with our moral perspectives.

554
00:51:14.500 --> 00:51:19.500
We have inherited all of these moral categories because of our Judeo-Christian ethic.

555
00:51:19.500 --> 00:51:26.500
If you look at basically every society prior to this or even societies in the east, that's not a given.

556
00:51:26.500 --> 00:51:33.500
That's not an assumption, especially in societies that have say understandings of karmic cycles.

557
00:51:33.500 --> 00:51:44.500
Whether that's in Buddhism or Hinduism, the idea of altruism is actually can be categorized as an evil because in the cycle of samsara of birth, life, death and rebirth,

558
00:51:44.500 --> 00:51:50.500
you are actually, your law in this life is due to your wrongdoing in the last life.

559
00:51:50.500 --> 00:51:57.500
So in helping someone like that, you are actually inhibiting them from being reincarnated better on the other side.

560
00:51:57.500 --> 00:52:01.500
So an idea like altruism doesn't exist within that eastern society.

561
00:52:01.500 --> 00:52:04.500
And if you look in the ancient world, let's pick on the Babylonians.

562
00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:10.500
The Babylonians, if they were to read Dawkins' River out of Eden, would basically say, yeah, exactly.

563
00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:21.500
So they have this creation story, it's called the Inuma Lish, and it's this big battle of the gods, and it's an origin story, an attempt to explain why everything is here.

564
00:52:21.500 --> 00:52:28.500
But the conclusion of it is basically, you are a product of a big battle and a mistake, right?

565
00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:38.500
The one god loses, and you, everything around you, the earth, the sky, it's just the remains of the gods that lost.

566
00:52:38.500 --> 00:52:46.500
So meaning, value, purpose, really, ultimately, you're just the product of time, plus, not a plus chance, as well.

567
00:52:46.500 --> 00:52:52.500
It's just framed within a religious perspective, whereas Dawkins frames it in a natural materialistic perspective.

568
00:52:52.500 --> 00:53:07.500
So where do we get the categories to even say that we should be taking care of people in communities outside of our specific community,

569
00:53:07.500 --> 00:53:12.500
because in some cultures, they have the ethic of love that neighbor, but in others, it's eat that neighbor.

570
00:53:12.500 --> 00:53:15.500
And so the question is, which society do you want to pick?

571
00:53:15.500 --> 00:53:18.500
And you're saying that that came from Judeo-Christian values.

572
00:53:18.500 --> 00:53:19.500
Yes.

573
00:53:19.500 --> 00:53:27.500
I would agree, yeah, I would agree that. I think I'm trying to understand if it's innate in us from a god, what's good and evil,

574
00:53:27.500 --> 00:53:34.500
or whether it's, you know, we all subscribe to a culture that was, you know, the foundation of that was these Christian values.

575
00:53:34.500 --> 00:53:37.500
And, yeah, which one is it?

576
00:53:37.500 --> 00:53:44.500
Yeah, well, was I born with a good and evil law was 2,000 or 3,000 years ago when Jesus came to be, and we had these books.

577
00:53:44.500 --> 00:53:46.500
Did they just influence them?

578
00:53:46.500 --> 00:53:55.500
Yeah, well, I think ultimately there's an aspect of our conscience that's imprinted on us, that we understand ethics to some degree or another.

579
00:53:55.500 --> 00:54:06.500
But the framework to actually find the objectivity of that ethic is found in the revelation of specific revelation in Scripture.

580
00:54:06.500 --> 00:54:07.500
Do you believe in evolution?

581
00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:08.500
I don't.

582
00:54:08.500 --> 00:54:09.500
You don't believe it's true.

583
00:54:09.500 --> 00:54:10.500
No.

584
00:54:10.500 --> 00:54:16.500
I am open to the fact that I don't think that a belief in evolution undermines Christianity anyway.

585
00:54:16.500 --> 00:54:20.500
However, I'm, and prefacing this by saying I'm not a scientist.

586
00:54:20.500 --> 00:54:22.500
I'm an advocate for intelligent design.

587
00:54:22.500 --> 00:54:39.500
And I would basically punt the complex conversations of evolution or biology to individuals who are far more study than me, like Stephen Meyer and Jonathan McClatchy and John Tours and Douglas Axe.

588
00:54:39.500 --> 00:54:41.500
And those individuals who have studied it.

589
00:54:41.500 --> 00:54:45.500
At the exact same time though, it also depends on what you mean by evolution.

590
00:54:45.500 --> 00:54:46.500
Right?

591
00:54:46.500 --> 00:54:49.500
So like adaptation genetically is a thing.

592
00:54:49.500 --> 00:54:57.500
I guess so I'm saying do you believe that we evolved from very simple organisms to become sure that you see today?

593
00:54:57.500 --> 00:54:58.500
No.

594
00:54:58.500 --> 00:55:01.500
And the argument for that would be, you know, I share 98% of the same DNA is like a chimpanzee.

595
00:55:01.500 --> 00:55:02.500
Sure.

596
00:55:02.500 --> 00:55:05.500
And we have these fossil records which seem to show a progression over time.

597
00:55:05.500 --> 00:55:06.500
Yeah.

598
00:55:06.500 --> 00:55:07.500
You don't believe that's true.

599
00:55:07.500 --> 00:55:08.500
No, I don't.

600
00:55:08.500 --> 00:55:19.500
But at the exact same time, I think, you know, there are individuals within the Christian faith intelligent people who do and have no problem with understanding of a theistic evolutionary model.

601
00:55:19.500 --> 00:55:32.500
However, I think in the effort of survival of the fittest, I still think that you're starting a few miles down the road in entering the question of the arrival of the fittest.

602
00:55:32.500 --> 00:55:34.500
How do minds come from mindless matter?

603
00:55:34.500 --> 00:55:37.500
How does everything come from nothing?

604
00:55:37.500 --> 00:55:41.500
How do we answer those questions?

605
00:55:41.500 --> 00:55:49.500
And I think that's why you can use the evolutionary model as an explanation of how God has actually created, right?

606
00:55:49.500 --> 00:55:52.500
The biology of the situation.

607
00:55:52.500 --> 00:55:58.500
But I think the bigger question is the cosmological questions.

608
00:55:58.500 --> 00:56:00.500
How did this all get going?

609
00:56:00.500 --> 00:56:02.500
You know, the big bang.

610
00:56:02.500 --> 00:56:04.500
What was the big banger?

611
00:56:04.500 --> 00:56:07.500
How did that first ball get rolling?

612
00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:17.500
And then why can you and I, Stephen, sit here and, like I said before, have the three pounds of gray matter in my head kind of

613
00:56:18.500 --> 00:56:22.500
ruminate over these very complex questions?

614
00:56:22.500 --> 00:56:25.500
You know, I think it was in the Galapagos Islands.

615
00:56:25.500 --> 00:56:28.500
I'm probably going to butcher this, but I'll do my very best.

616
00:56:28.500 --> 00:56:30.500
The sailors went to an island.

617
00:56:30.500 --> 00:56:31.500
They left a bird there.

618
00:56:31.500 --> 00:56:33.500
They came back 50 years later.

619
00:56:33.500 --> 00:56:41.500
The bird's beak had grown to be very, very long because the prey on that island that it was eating were in hole.

620
00:56:41.500 --> 00:56:42.500
So they needed longer beaks.

621
00:56:42.500 --> 00:56:47.500
So it kind of shows us that if you leave an animal in an environment, it will adapt.

622
00:56:47.500 --> 00:56:52.500
And it's, you know, it will select out the short beak birds for the long beak birds.

623
00:56:52.500 --> 00:56:58.500
And just in that short period of time, you can see that it's like, you know, it's becoming a different type of animal.

624
00:56:58.500 --> 00:57:06.500
And if you extrapolate that out over a long, long period of time, almost an inconceivable amount of time, you know, maybe hundreds and millions of years,

625
00:57:06.500 --> 00:57:12.500
one can understand why like me and the chimpanzee, there are similarities in how we look.

626
00:57:12.500 --> 00:57:17.500
And there are 99% similarities in my DNA and chimpanzees DNA.

627
00:57:17.500 --> 00:57:21.500
So one would argue that we are, we have a common ancestor.

628
00:57:21.500 --> 00:57:23.500
It's like very compelling evidence to me.

629
00:57:23.500 --> 00:57:24.500
Like sure.

630
00:57:24.500 --> 00:57:28.500
I mean, it's the transitions going from the chimpanzee type thing, right?

631
00:57:28.500 --> 00:57:31.500
Because we're obviously not arguing that we were a chimpanzee.

632
00:57:31.500 --> 00:57:33.500
We have a common ancestor.

633
00:57:33.500 --> 00:57:46.500
Yeah, that hominid, whatever that hominid was, what is the transitionary fossil explanation, whatever that goes from the monkey to the human being?

634
00:57:46.500 --> 00:57:52.500
And I don't really think we have an answer for that in terms of consciousness questions.

635
00:57:52.500 --> 00:58:05.500
Like what makes our ability to reason and think and contemplate different than all of the other species in the animal kingdom?

636
00:58:05.500 --> 00:58:11.500
And how do we go if we're arguing that, you know, everything comes from single cell organisms.

637
00:58:11.500 --> 00:58:21.500
I guess you could have a, if we want to call it a time of the gaps, explanation, you know, just add lots of millions of years and it solves this issue.

638
00:58:21.500 --> 00:58:28.500
I don't know if I am completely satisfied with that answer if, because obviously there's adaptation.

639
00:58:28.500 --> 00:58:37.500
But, you know, if you're looking at whether there's the dodo bird example or Darwin's finches, right, where the beaks are different, you're still getting beak birds.

640
00:58:37.500 --> 00:58:42.500
And we've never seen one species turn into a complete different species.

641
00:58:42.500 --> 00:58:48.500
The thing that I fill the gap with is that it's just a matter of time.

642
00:58:48.500 --> 00:58:52.500
So, you know, with the bird's examples for like 50 years or something, all to decades.

643
00:58:52.500 --> 00:59:00.500
But when we think about earth potentially being like four, five billion years old, I think it's almost inconceivable what can happen over such a long period of time.

644
00:59:00.500 --> 00:59:10.500
Like it's conceivable that if me and you went to different parts of planet earth and lived in two completely different environments, and then we came back five billion years later.

645
00:59:10.500 --> 00:59:17.500
And there was no medicine and no factors helping us to survive if that, you know, we would have branched, gone in two different directions completely.

646
00:59:17.500 --> 00:59:29.500
And you, you know, your ancestors who were living in the jungle might be nine foot and actually what was useful for survival where I lived in some cave was being two foot tall.

647
00:59:29.500 --> 00:59:33.500
And then we wouldn't be able to reproduce which kind of makes us different species now.

648
00:59:33.500 --> 00:59:38.500
Like that's, I mean, that sounds conceivable for me over four, like 4.5 billion years.

649
00:59:38.500 --> 00:59:45.500
Seems conceivable that we both agree on adaptation, like small adaptations.

650
00:59:45.500 --> 00:59:49.500
But then if you expand the time horizon, those small adaptations become massive.

651
00:59:49.500 --> 00:59:56.500
Yeah, I mean, ultimately, no matter which way you want to swing in, I think the adding millions of years as the explanation is a little bit too convenient.

652
00:59:56.500 --> 01:00:07.500
But I think at the end of the day, you're still looking at the complexity and nature that points to a design of something that is amazing.

653
01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:18.500
And the question of, okay, how do we, Dawkins is famous for saying that it has the illusion of design to it.

654
01:00:18.500 --> 01:00:22.500
There's not actually a design to it. It's just the illusion of design.

655
01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:32.500
But I think, you know, if we actually look at when Darwin was writing, they thought the smaller you got, the simpler it got.

656
01:00:32.500 --> 01:00:37.500
And now we know that the smaller you get, in fact, the more complex you get.

657
01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:40.500
As in the museum into design, like the brain, the museum into the brain.

658
01:00:40.500 --> 01:00:44.500
Yeah, our understanding of science has grown exponentially even from Darwin's day.

659
01:00:44.500 --> 01:00:54.500
And there's an aspect of like Darwinian evolution that is, has moved on into what we would now call like new Darwinian evolutionary theory.

660
01:00:54.500 --> 01:01:09.500
And you look at individuals like I mentioned Stephen Meyer before and he even has questioned some of these things about the explanations that are working as givens for evolutionary theory.

661
01:01:09.500 --> 01:01:15.500
I still don't think it gets us back to, okay, then why do we have purpose?

662
01:01:15.500 --> 01:01:22.500
I've had so many founders speak to me and say, why didn't this particular ad that I ran on this platform work for me?

663
01:01:22.500 --> 01:01:29.500
Maybe the copy wasn't good, the creative wasn't strong, but usually the problem is they're not having the right conversation, because that ad never reached the right person.

664
01:01:29.500 --> 01:01:32.500
And if you're in B2B marketing, that is much of the game.

665
01:01:32.500 --> 01:01:35.500
And this is where LinkedIn ads solves that problem for you.

666
01:01:35.500 --> 01:01:37.500
Their targeting is ridiculously specific.

667
01:01:37.500 --> 01:01:43.500
You can target by job title, seniority, company size, industry, and even someone's skillset.

668
01:01:43.500 --> 01:01:49.500
And then network includes over a billion professionals, about 130 million of them are decision makers.

669
01:01:49.500 --> 01:01:53.500
So when you use LinkedIn ads, you're putting your brand in front of the right people.

670
01:01:53.500 --> 01:01:59.500
And LinkedIn ads also drive the highest B2B return on ad spend across all ad networks in my experience.

671
01:01:59.500 --> 01:02:04.500
If you want to give them a try, head over to LinkedIn.com slash diary.

672
01:02:04.500 --> 01:02:12.500
And when you spend $250 on your first LinkedIn ads campaign, you'll get an extra $250 credit from me for the next one.

673
01:02:12.500 --> 01:02:17.500
That's LinkedIn.com slash diary, terms and conditions apply.

674
01:02:17.500 --> 01:02:22.500
Every time I've tried to improve something in my life, like my businesses, my health, my relationships,

675
01:02:22.500 --> 01:02:25.500
I've noticed that the biggest shifts have come from being better informed.

676
01:02:25.500 --> 01:02:28.500
And when it comes to our health, most of us know very, very little.

677
01:02:28.500 --> 01:02:33.500
So when our team was approached about partnering with function health, it felt very much aligned.

678
01:02:33.500 --> 01:02:37.500
Their team has developed a way of giving you a full 360 degree view of your health.

679
01:02:37.500 --> 01:02:40.500
Many of the things that are going on in your body in a form of different tests.

680
01:02:40.500 --> 01:02:45.500
You do one blood draw and it gives you access to over 160 lab results.

681
01:02:45.500 --> 01:02:49.500
hormones, heart health, inflammation, stress toxins, the whole picture.

682
01:02:49.500 --> 01:02:52.500
I use it and serve many of my team members.

683
01:02:52.500 --> 01:02:56.500
You sign up and you schedule tests. And once you're done, you get a little report like the one I have here.

684
01:02:56.500 --> 01:02:59.500
I can see my in-range results, my out-of-range results.

685
01:02:59.500 --> 01:03:01.500
And there's a little AI function too.

686
01:03:01.500 --> 01:03:06.500
So if I have any questions about my out-of-range results, I can just go in there and ask it any question I want.

687
01:03:06.500 --> 01:03:09.500
And these tests are backed by doctors and thousands of hours of research.

688
01:03:09.500 --> 01:03:12.500
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689
01:03:12.500 --> 01:03:20.500
Go to functionhealth.com slash DOAC and use the code DOAC25 for $25 off your membership.

690
01:03:20.500 --> 01:03:22.500
Where do you think we came from?

691
01:03:23.500 --> 01:03:26.500
Where do you think I came from or my ancestors came from?

692
01:03:26.500 --> 01:03:29.500
Do you think they were put on earth as humans? Do you believe in the Adam and Eve story?

693
01:03:29.500 --> 01:03:31.500
Do you think there was some kind of evolution?

694
01:03:31.500 --> 01:03:34.500
And when did you think this happened?

695
01:03:34.500 --> 01:03:38.500
So I know that the world is at least 35 years old.

696
01:03:38.500 --> 01:03:45.500
I don't think it's an answer that the Bible is actually attempting to address in terms of the age of the earth.

697
01:03:45.500 --> 01:03:47.500
Billions of years old?

698
01:03:47.500 --> 01:03:58.500
I don't see any reason not to because I don't think that the creation story in Genesis chapter 1 is necessarily an attempt to reveal the mechanisms of how God did that exactly.

699
01:03:58.500 --> 01:04:05.500
Because the source of scientific consensus says that it's roughly 4.5 billion years old, the earth.

700
01:04:05.500 --> 01:04:06.500
Yeah.

701
01:04:06.500 --> 01:04:14.500
And microbes and single-salt organisms are estimated to have appeared 3.5 to 4 billion years ago, almost as soon as earth cooled enough to have liquid water.

702
01:04:14.500 --> 01:04:15.500
Sure.

703
01:04:15.500 --> 01:04:17.500
Yeah, and I'm fine with that, actually.

704
01:04:17.500 --> 01:04:24.500
I don't think I have to adhere to neo-Darwinian evolution in order to actually leave the world as old.

705
01:04:24.500 --> 01:04:28.500
I think I would adhere to an intelligent design thesis.

706
01:04:28.500 --> 01:04:30.500
What does that mean?

707
01:04:30.500 --> 01:04:40.500
So essentially that the world around us is intelligently designed, not necessarily in that it came through processes of evolution.

708
01:04:40.500 --> 01:04:41.500
But once again, I'm not a scientist.

709
01:04:41.500 --> 01:04:42.500
Right?

710
01:04:42.500 --> 01:04:43.500
I'm historian.

711
01:04:43.500 --> 01:04:48.500
I genuinely do believe that there was a historical Adam and Eve and that those were the first people.

712
01:04:48.500 --> 01:04:49.500
Okay.

713
01:04:49.500 --> 01:04:50.500
Now what did they look like?

714
01:04:50.500 --> 01:04:51.500
I don't know.

715
01:04:51.500 --> 01:04:54.500
I think they probably lived a long, long time ago.

716
01:04:54.500 --> 01:05:04.500
And I don't know if the breakdown of Genesis chapter 1 and the like seven days of creation are actually attempting to articulate 724-hour days.

717
01:05:04.500 --> 01:05:05.500
They could be.

718
01:05:05.500 --> 01:05:06.500
Yeah.

719
01:05:06.500 --> 01:05:07.500
I just don't think that's the point.

720
01:05:07.500 --> 01:05:10.500
Do you believe that humans were put here as humans?

721
01:05:10.500 --> 01:05:14.500
And do you believe that the other animals were put here in some kind of early form?

722
01:05:14.500 --> 01:05:15.500
Yes.

723
01:05:15.500 --> 01:05:17.500
And then you also believe in adaptation of those species.

724
01:05:17.500 --> 01:05:18.500
Okay.

725
01:05:18.500 --> 01:05:27.500
And going back to like talking about trying to explain these things scientifically, I always find like we can explore the answer scientifically,

726
01:05:27.500 --> 01:05:32.500
but that's only going to get us so far, especially when we're discussing meaning and purpose questions.

727
01:05:32.500 --> 01:05:41.500
Well, let me give you a little bit of a story that a friend of mine, Glenn Schrivener likes to articulate in this purple that he tells that he called Betty, the botanist.

728
01:05:41.500 --> 01:05:49.500
So you have Betty, the botanist, and she's been looking at a plant sample in her lab.

729
01:05:49.500 --> 01:05:53.500
She's been spending all weekend looking at this plant sample.

730
01:05:53.500 --> 01:05:58.500
She's been investigating it and doing all of these tests on it all weekend.

731
01:05:58.500 --> 01:06:02.500
And Jerry, the lab assistant, comes in on Monday.

732
01:06:02.500 --> 01:06:11.500
And Betty looks at Jerry and says, Jerry, thank you for the botanical specimen that you left me on the weekend.

733
01:06:11.500 --> 01:06:13.500
Thank you for this botanical specimen.

734
01:06:13.500 --> 01:06:14.500
I'm doing all of these tests.

735
01:06:14.500 --> 01:06:19.500
I've been looking at the components of it and the complexity of the biology.

736
01:06:19.500 --> 01:06:25.500
And there are pharmacological implications that I've extrapolated from its various biological components.

737
01:06:25.500 --> 01:06:28.500
And we can use these to cure diseases.

738
01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:29.500
There's so many things.

739
01:06:29.500 --> 01:06:32.500
Thank you so much for the botanical specimen.

740
01:06:32.500 --> 01:06:40.500
And Jerry says, Betty, it was February 14th on the weekend.

741
01:06:40.500 --> 01:06:42.500
That was a long stem rose.

742
01:06:42.500 --> 01:06:44.500
Do you know what I left for you?

743
01:06:44.500 --> 01:06:53.500
Do you know what the implication of the botanical specimen, as you're calling it, was for what I was trying to communicate to you?

744
01:06:53.500 --> 01:06:58.500
Now, did Betty the botanist understand the long stem rose?

745
01:06:58.500 --> 01:07:09.500
In one way, she understood it more than most because she had done all of the tests and run through all of the different ways that she could extrapolate what that thing was.

746
01:07:09.500 --> 01:07:14.500
But what Jerry was trying to actually illustrate was something that went beyond that.

747
01:07:14.500 --> 01:07:15.500
It was a love gift.

748
01:07:15.500 --> 01:07:20.500
He was trying to communicate something that went beyond the simple biology.

749
01:07:20.500 --> 01:07:24.500
And Betty could very simply say, well, I couldn't get that from the data.

750
01:07:24.500 --> 01:07:29.500
I couldn't have extrapolated the implications of it being a love gift.

751
01:07:29.500 --> 01:07:37.500
And in that, so far as it being a parable, we can look at all of the scientific explanations.

752
01:07:37.500 --> 01:07:49.500
But there's something that goes beyond the simple data in terms of meaning and purpose and desire identity questions that go far beyond that.

753
01:07:49.500 --> 01:07:59.500
We can look, I could tell you the different chemical components that make up the page and the ink and the size of the paper and the transparency and all of that.

754
01:07:59.500 --> 01:08:02.500
I could say, Stephen, what is this?

755
01:08:02.500 --> 01:08:09.500
You could go into all of this explanation about how paper is made and the pulp and how we extrapolated and eventually put it together in the binding.

756
01:08:09.500 --> 01:08:14.500
And I could say, okay, yeah, but this is a bottle.

757
01:08:14.500 --> 01:08:17.500
This is meant to communicate something to you.

758
01:08:17.500 --> 01:08:19.500
And what is the explanation for this?

759
01:08:19.500 --> 01:08:25.500
One explanation could be the chemical and scientific components that make up the Bible.

760
01:08:25.500 --> 01:08:30.500
Another explanation could be, this is a religious text that's actually trying to communicate something to you.

761
01:08:30.500 --> 01:08:38.500
And so I think in the scientific data, all of that is obviously important, right?

762
01:08:38.500 --> 01:08:47.500
There's this great quote by CS Lewis where he says that men were scientific because they expected laws in nature.

763
01:08:47.500 --> 01:08:50.500
And so they looked for the legislator.

764
01:08:50.500 --> 01:08:55.500
And you look, you read individuals like Francis Bacon who came up with the scientific method and they're inherently religious, right?

765
01:08:55.500 --> 01:08:59.500
They almost articulate what they're doing in their scientific endeavor as an act of worship.

766
01:08:59.500 --> 01:09:10.500
Because if the exploration of the creative world points to a creator, then that can be an act of understanding who and why we're here.

767
01:09:10.500 --> 01:09:15.500
In terms of the scientific questions, I'm very interested in them, especially as a non-scientist. They fascinate me.

768
01:09:15.500 --> 01:09:24.500
But in terms of the meaning questions, I think I would err on the side of caution of attempting to be Betty the Botanist.

769
01:09:24.500 --> 01:09:33.500
And sometimes I read individuals like Dawkins and I'm hearing Betty the Botanist extrapolate and define the botanical specimen.

770
01:09:33.500 --> 01:09:47.500
I think part of the reason why the new atheist movement that I again was captured by was not sufficient is because, as you say, it didn't fill some kind of gap.

771
01:09:47.500 --> 01:09:59.500
And much of the gap, I think, for a lot of people is, if I believe in the science and that argument in the atheist argument or I believe in the Bible, I still need an answer to, yeah, but so what?

772
01:09:59.500 --> 01:10:05.500
What's the point of this? Even in the example of evolution, I get, but why am I evolving? Why am I trying to survive?

773
01:10:05.500 --> 01:10:11.500
Yeah, that means to what end? I'm trying to have more kids, but then why am I trying to have more kids? What's the point?

774
01:10:11.500 --> 01:10:16.500
And you just keep hitting this wall of like a kid, but what's the point? What's the point? Am I meant to do something? Is there a mission for me?

775
01:10:16.500 --> 01:10:23.500
Right. And I think that question is one that I think about sometimes, which is, no matter what I believe, like what is the point?

776
01:10:23.500 --> 01:10:37.500
And I think that's why the Bible is such an amazing explanation for that, because in a world that tells you ultimately that you're a product of time plus magical chance,

777
01:10:37.500 --> 01:10:44.500
the Bible looks at you, Stephen, and says, you're created with meaning and purpose and intention, you bear the image of God.

778
01:10:44.500 --> 01:10:59.500
So there's something that is actually screaming from your biology about who you are that goes beyond the fact that you're not just a physical specimen sitting in front of me.

779
01:10:59.500 --> 01:11:06.500
Right? You have a mind, and that mind is maybe your brain, or not even sure about that, right?

780
01:11:06.500 --> 01:11:19.500
So what makes Stephen Stephen? You're not not your body. And that's why, I mean, there's this inherent conversation within Christianity about the fact that our hope is not a spiritual one, the end result is the resurrection.

781
01:11:19.500 --> 01:11:25.500
Right? The reason why Jesus rose from the dead is Scripture called him the first fruit, so we're all going to be resurrected.

782
01:11:25.500 --> 01:11:30.500
There's going to be a new heaven and a new earth, and that's the promise of Christianity.

783
01:11:30.500 --> 01:11:32.500
So that's the point. Yes.

784
01:11:32.500 --> 01:11:36.500
The point of this life, according to the Bible, is that I get to go to this place called heaven.

785
01:11:36.500 --> 01:11:45.500
No. So it's at both ends. So when Jesus' disciples ask him how to pray, he says, you know, it gives them the Lord's prayer.

786
01:11:46.500 --> 01:11:51.500
Our Father, who are in heaven, how would be thy name that kingdom come? They will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

787
01:11:51.500 --> 01:11:57.500
So it's not just about, you know, I'm going to die, and my spirit's going to go to somewhere else, and you know, that's the whole goal.

788
01:11:57.500 --> 01:12:05.500
It's to bring heaven here as well. What we do matters, because you are human being, you're not a human doing.

789
01:12:05.500 --> 01:12:13.500
And so what you do here, and who you are here, actually has an implication to who and what?

790
01:12:13.500 --> 01:12:28.500
To everything. So we're put here to be stewards of creation of each other, to be examples of image bearers of God, like your life has intrinsic meaning.

791
01:12:28.500 --> 01:12:33.500
Internal meaning, yeah. Internal meaning. More than just what you can contribute.

792
01:12:34.500 --> 01:12:45.500
So that would be extrinsic, your ability to give back to society or ability to contribute to the advancement of scientific, technological, you know, fill in the gap.

793
01:12:45.500 --> 01:12:51.500
You have value that goes beyond that, right? This is why we fight for people everywhere.

794
01:12:51.500 --> 01:13:00.500
And that's, I think, why injustice, something like injustice bothers us so much, and why evil bothers us so much.

795
01:13:00.500 --> 01:13:03.500
Do you know the chimpanzee that has like 90% the same DNA as me?

796
01:13:03.500 --> 01:13:04.500
Yeah.

797
01:13:04.500 --> 01:13:10.500
Do they have the same intrinsic meaning? You know, even my dog, I'm like, does my dog have that same intrinsic meaning?

798
01:13:10.500 --> 01:13:12.500
And is my dog going to go to heaven?

799
01:13:12.500 --> 01:13:15.500
I think scripture tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

800
01:13:15.500 --> 01:13:18.500
There have been individuals throughout our history who have articulated that.

801
01:13:18.500 --> 01:13:22.500
I mean, same Francis of Assisi was big on animals going to heaven.

802
01:13:22.500 --> 01:13:25.500
I see his Lewis was big on animals going to heaven.

803
01:13:25.500 --> 01:13:32.500
In fact, when he wrote the last battle, you know, the last series in his line, which in the wardrobe books, there are animals in heaven.

804
01:13:32.500 --> 01:13:35.500
I mean, if there's a new earth, I think there are going to be animals.

805
01:13:35.500 --> 01:13:39.500
I don't know if they're going to be the same animals that existed on this side.

806
01:13:39.500 --> 01:13:43.500
But I also have no idea. But I think there's something different.

807
01:13:43.500 --> 01:13:46.500
Because I think you have a soul.

808
01:13:46.500 --> 01:13:48.500
And you think my dog doesn't have a soul.

809
01:13:48.500 --> 01:13:56.500
I don't know, but I don't think he has the same kind of spiritual component that you are in doubt with in the same way.

810
01:13:56.500 --> 01:13:58.500
How do we know?

811
01:13:58.500 --> 01:14:01.500
How do we know that these chimpanzees, they're pretty smart.

812
01:14:01.500 --> 01:14:04.500
I was watching one touch screen the other day and solving problems.

813
01:14:04.500 --> 01:14:11.500
And I was thinking, is it not like an element of, I don't know, human arrogance to think that these other creatures like the big the whales.

814
01:14:11.500 --> 01:14:12.500
They're so unbelievably smart.

815
01:14:12.500 --> 01:14:16.500
They don't have a soul. They work together in packs. They love. They have kids.

816
01:14:16.500 --> 01:14:18.500
They seem to pursue things.

817
01:14:18.500 --> 01:14:25.500
Yeah. I mean, I think that's a testimony to kind of the general reflection of God's good creation.

818
01:14:25.500 --> 01:14:31.500
At the same time, we describe when you're just repeating something, we use adjectives like aping.

819
01:14:31.500 --> 01:14:38.500
We understand that there's an aspect of like, if you train the monkey to push the button, he's going to push the button.

820
01:14:38.500 --> 01:14:44.500
If you give the elephant the paintbrush and kind of, you know,

821
01:14:44.500 --> 01:14:47.500
convince it to paint itself, it's going to paint itself.

822
01:14:47.500 --> 01:14:51.500
But if you, if you can train the elephant to paint the Mona Lisa,

823
01:14:51.500 --> 01:14:57.500
is it really going to understand what it's painted in the same way that Michelangelo understands it?

824
01:14:57.500 --> 01:14:59.500
Charlie Da Vinci, who painted the Mona Lisa.

825
01:14:59.500 --> 01:15:01.500
Now I'm getting myself into trouble.

826
01:15:01.500 --> 01:15:03.500
Whoever painted the Mona Lisa, Da Vinci,

827
01:15:03.500 --> 01:15:11.500
there's something about the value and what is being put in there that is different.

828
01:15:11.500 --> 01:15:17.500
So do you believe that me and you are born with a particular mission and meaning on this planet?

829
01:15:17.500 --> 01:15:21.500
Or do you think we have to go and find that particular meaning or mission?

830
01:15:21.500 --> 01:15:23.500
That's a great question.

831
01:15:23.500 --> 01:15:34.500
I think the chief end of man is to know God and glorify him.

832
01:15:34.500 --> 01:15:37.500
Insofar as Jesus is asked, what is the greatest commandment of the law?

833
01:15:37.500 --> 01:15:42.500
And Jesus uses two examples. He goes from, you know, two different passages in the Old Testament.

834
01:15:42.500 --> 01:15:46.500
And he says, love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength,

835
01:15:46.500 --> 01:15:48.500
and love your neighbor as yourself.

836
01:15:49.500 --> 01:15:55.500
I mean, ultimately, I think we always want some sort of a grandiose purpose.

837
01:15:55.500 --> 01:15:58.500
And we want the calling of like Moses.

838
01:15:58.500 --> 01:16:04.500
We want to go out in the bush or we want to go out in the desert and find a burning bush and have that calling on our lives.

839
01:16:04.500 --> 01:16:15.500
I don't think that's wrong, but I think ultimately our purpose is to live a faithful life to who we were created to be

840
01:16:15.500 --> 01:16:22.500
in being image-bearers of God and being faithful in loving God with everything that we have.

841
01:16:22.500 --> 01:16:27.500
So that like the Jewish phraseology of loving God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength,

842
01:16:27.500 --> 01:16:30.500
it's kind of a stand-in for your entire being.

843
01:16:30.500 --> 01:16:37.500
With everything you have, love God with that by what you do, by what you say, by how you live.

844
01:16:37.500 --> 01:16:42.500
Like do unto others as you would have them doing to you, right? That's the golden rule.

845
01:16:43.500 --> 01:16:47.500
But if you look at other religions, it's almost always framed in the negative.

846
01:16:47.500 --> 01:16:51.500
Don't do unto others, but you don't want done to you.

847
01:16:51.500 --> 01:16:57.500
There's a difference between not punching someone in the face and building someone hospital.

848
01:16:57.500 --> 01:17:03.500
So the meaning of our lives is to love our creator at the most fundamental level.

849
01:17:03.500 --> 01:17:09.500
At the basic level, and to understand how that expresses in everyday life.

850
01:17:09.500 --> 01:17:18.500
So Martin Luther, the German Protestant reformer, he said the faithful Christian shoemaker,

851
01:17:18.500 --> 01:17:26.500
doesn't glorify God by sowing little crosses into the shoes, but by making really good quality shoes.

852
01:17:26.500 --> 01:17:31.500
And so there's an aspect of God has endowed us, right?

853
01:17:31.500 --> 01:17:33.500
We're creating God's image.

854
01:17:33.500 --> 01:17:40.500
As an aspect of an outpouring of that which we are created to be, and we do that well.

855
01:17:40.500 --> 01:17:45.500
The proverb says whatever your hand finds to do with all its might.

856
01:17:45.500 --> 01:17:51.500
And the idea is, you have the capability to do incredible things.

857
01:17:51.500 --> 01:17:57.500
And the reason why you have that capability is because you bear the image of a creator.

858
01:17:57.500 --> 01:18:01.500
Who, like I said before, lives in a set of living loving relationships.

859
01:18:01.500 --> 01:18:07.500
And so that God actually didn't need to create you, me, anything, right?

860
01:18:07.500 --> 01:18:13.500
So God is not better off or worse off if we love Him or worship Him or believe in Him.

861
01:18:13.500 --> 01:18:14.500
He really isn't.

862
01:18:14.500 --> 01:18:20.500
He has existed in love, in relationship.

863
01:18:20.500 --> 01:18:25.500
And yet, the story of the Bible is that God chooses to create out of an outpouring of His love.

864
01:18:25.500 --> 01:18:31.500
Knowing even that we are going to rebel against Him, we are going to sin, right?

865
01:18:31.500 --> 01:18:38.500
Do wrong against how He has actually created us to be, and still desires to have that relationship.

866
01:18:38.500 --> 01:18:43.500
And if we do sin, if I sin in my life, do I go to hell?

867
01:18:43.500 --> 01:18:50.500
You don't, I mean, the answer to that is yes and no, but the...

868
01:18:50.500 --> 01:18:52.500
I'm only going to hell.

869
01:18:52.500 --> 01:18:55.500
Stephen Bartlett is Stephen Bartlett going to hell.

870
01:18:55.500 --> 01:18:57.500
This is the clip that they're going to put online.

871
01:18:57.500 --> 01:18:59.500
Wes, Stephen Bartlett is going to hell.

872
01:18:59.500 --> 01:19:00.500
I mean, here's the thing.

873
01:19:00.500 --> 01:19:02.500
Everybody is going to hell.

874
01:19:02.500 --> 01:19:03.500
Everybody.

875
01:19:03.500 --> 01:19:05.500
Here's how I've said it in the past, right?

876
01:19:05.500 --> 01:19:06.500
The Bible is very clear.

877
01:19:06.500 --> 01:19:08.500
All good people go to heaven.

878
01:19:08.500 --> 01:19:12.500
But Jesus said, no one is good but God alone.

879
01:19:12.500 --> 01:19:16.500
So if all good people go to heaven, no one is good but God alone.

880
01:19:16.500 --> 01:19:18.500
Only God is in heaven.

881
01:19:18.500 --> 01:19:24.500
So do you believe that there is a hell and heaven as we typically understand it?

882
01:19:24.500 --> 01:19:27.500
A place that is great to go to after we die?

883
01:19:27.500 --> 01:19:29.500
And a place that is very hot.

884
01:19:29.500 --> 01:19:31.500
A place that is very hot.

885
01:19:31.500 --> 01:19:35.500
I mean, there's a lot of imagery of fire and weeping and gnashing of teeth.

886
01:19:35.500 --> 01:19:40.500
I think a lot of that is kind of reflective and allegorical,

887
01:19:40.500 --> 01:19:43.500
more than it's like a physical tangible thing.

888
01:19:44.500 --> 01:19:52.500
Most of our perceptions of hell are largely shaped by depictions in the Middle Ages of Dante's Inferno and that kind of thing.

889
01:19:52.500 --> 01:20:03.500
I think it's more so that you will experience the full weight of the separation from God's goodness.

890
01:20:03.500 --> 01:20:09.500
Not necessarily a separation from God because I think God's punishment and His wrath are going to be felt there.

891
01:20:09.500 --> 01:20:17.500
But if we're talking about like a good place, bad place in the very simplest of terms, yes.

892
01:20:17.500 --> 01:20:20.500
But heaven isn't full of good people.

893
01:20:20.500 --> 01:20:23.500
Heaven is full of people who understand they are not good enough.

894
01:20:23.500 --> 01:20:26.500
And so I mentioned that like justice, mercy thing.

895
01:20:26.500 --> 01:20:28.500
Justice is fulfilled on Jesus.

896
01:20:28.500 --> 01:20:35.500
So because justice is fulfilled now, mercy, which is not getting what we do deserve,

897
01:20:35.500 --> 01:20:38.500
is able to be given to those who put their trust in Jesus.

898
01:20:38.500 --> 01:20:46.500
So if I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe in the Bible, but I live a good life.

899
01:20:46.500 --> 01:20:50.500
I'm nice to people, charitable, trans-be kind wherever I can be.

900
01:20:50.500 --> 01:20:52.500
And I don't believe in God.

901
01:20:52.500 --> 01:20:55.500
Am I going to hell or heaven as it relates to the Scriptures?

902
01:20:55.500 --> 01:21:03.500
Well, I don't think if you're living your life rejecting God, God is not going to force you into His presence.

903
01:21:03.500 --> 01:21:06.500
So I'm not going to go into heaven, I'm not going to go to heaven then.

904
01:21:06.500 --> 01:21:07.500
No.

905
01:21:07.500 --> 01:21:08.500
Where am I going to go?

906
01:21:08.500 --> 01:21:10.500
Well, you would go to hell.

907
01:21:10.500 --> 01:21:16.500
So if I don't believe in the Bible, Jesus and God, then I'm going to go to hell.

908
01:21:16.500 --> 01:21:23.500
Yes, insofar as if heaven is a place for those who have submitted their lives to Jesus,

909
01:21:23.500 --> 01:21:27.500
who are living the identity of what they're created to be, and said,

910
01:21:27.500 --> 01:21:29.500
your will be done, God.

911
01:21:29.500 --> 01:21:34.500
Hell is a place where God says, you rejected me, your will be done.

912
01:21:34.500 --> 01:21:41.500
I'm going to give you what you want in that I'm going to remove my grace and mercy from you,

913
01:21:41.500 --> 01:21:50.500
and you are going to experience truly what you desire in being separated from me and my goodness and my grace.

914
01:21:50.500 --> 01:21:53.500
And what is that place like according to the Scripture?

915
01:21:53.500 --> 01:21:57.500
Give me a depiction of my mind of what hell might be like for me.

916
01:21:57.500 --> 01:21:58.500
Yeah, I mean, it's not a good place.

917
01:21:58.500 --> 01:21:59.500
It's not a nice place.

918
01:21:59.500 --> 01:22:05.500
It's a place that no matter what's going on, if you are a believer,

919
01:22:05.500 --> 01:22:14.500
if you truly understand what this book is saying, seriously, I think it should motivate you to want to desire,

920
01:22:14.500 --> 01:22:20.500
Stephen Bartlett, I desire you to have a personal relationship with your creator

921
01:22:20.500 --> 01:22:27.500
because I don't want you to experience whatever hell is.

922
01:22:27.500 --> 01:22:33.500
I desire for you to be in perfect relationship with your God,

923
01:22:33.500 --> 01:22:37.500
not necessarily because I want you to get out of hell free-card,

924
01:22:37.500 --> 01:22:43.500
but because I actually think that in living how God created you to be,

925
01:22:43.500 --> 01:22:47.500
in accepting living out the image that you bear,

926
01:22:47.500 --> 01:22:56.500
you're going to find the meaning and purpose that you ultimately have expressed that you have this in a desire for.

927
01:22:56.500 --> 01:23:03.500
I think it's about 18% of Americans don't believe in a God.

928
01:23:04.500 --> 01:23:09.500
Now, to get into heaven as it's described in the Bible,

929
01:23:09.500 --> 01:23:11.500
do I just need to say, I believe in God,

930
01:23:11.500 --> 01:23:15.500
or do I have to have some sort of active commitment and evidence in my life

931
01:23:15.500 --> 01:23:20.500
that I am living my life in line with God's teachings?

932
01:23:20.500 --> 01:23:25.500
I think ultimately, salvation implies your being saved from something.

933
01:23:25.500 --> 01:23:29.500
The good news is because the bad news is bad.

934
01:23:29.500 --> 01:23:32.500
The bad news is very bad. I was looking at what the Bible says about hell.

935
01:23:32.500 --> 01:23:34.500
In a revelation, it says it's a lake of fire,

936
01:23:34.500 --> 01:23:36.500
in a market it says it's unquenchable fire.

937
01:23:36.500 --> 01:23:38.500
In Matthew, it says,

938
01:23:38.500 --> 01:23:41.500
eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

939
01:23:41.500 --> 01:23:43.500
In Matthew, again, it says,

940
01:23:43.500 --> 01:23:48.500
outer darkness where there will be weeping and mashing of teeth.

941
01:23:48.500 --> 01:23:51.500
They will be shut out from the presence of the Lord,

942
01:23:51.500 --> 01:23:53.500
weeping and mashing of teeth and torment,

943
01:23:53.500 --> 01:23:56.500
eternal punishment, the smoke of their torment rises forever.

944
01:23:56.500 --> 01:23:58.500
This is not a place I want to go.

945
01:23:58.500 --> 01:24:04.500
No, no. And I think the urgency of the Christian message is the bad news is really bad.

946
01:24:04.500 --> 01:24:07.500
And that's what makes the good news so good.

947
01:24:07.500 --> 01:24:13.500
Jesus has taken on that hell on your behalf

948
01:24:13.500 --> 01:24:17.500
and it goes beyond simply a believing, right?

949
01:24:17.500 --> 01:24:20.500
It's not just about saying the right words.

950
01:24:20.500 --> 01:24:24.500
It's not just an incantation.

951
01:24:25.500 --> 01:24:28.500
You are not saved by what you do, right?

952
01:24:28.500 --> 01:24:31.500
You're saved by works. It's just Jesus.

953
01:24:31.500 --> 01:24:37.500
Jesus lived the life you couldn't and made the sacrifice you can't

954
01:24:37.500 --> 01:24:43.500
on your behalf in order to establish that right relationship with God.

955
01:24:43.500 --> 01:24:45.500
So that's where grace comes into the picture.

956
01:24:45.500 --> 01:24:48.500
Just this is getting what you do deserve.

957
01:24:48.500 --> 01:24:50.500
Mercy is not getting what you do deserve.

958
01:24:50.500 --> 01:24:53.500
Grace is getting what you don't deserve.

959
01:24:53.500 --> 01:24:57.500
So in so far as Christ on the cross,

960
01:24:57.500 --> 01:25:01.500
fulfills the justice of his holy law.

961
01:25:01.500 --> 01:25:05.500
Mercy is enacted and you don't get that punishment

962
01:25:05.500 --> 01:25:10.500
by putting your faith and trust in Jesus as your Lord and your Savior, as your Creator,

963
01:25:10.500 --> 01:25:12.500
you don't get that punishment.

964
01:25:12.500 --> 01:25:17.500
And now you get grace, which is not where you're owed,

965
01:25:17.500 --> 01:25:21.500
but you are adopted as a child of the most high.

966
01:25:21.500 --> 01:25:27.500
So of the 18% of people that say they don't believe in a God,

967
01:25:27.500 --> 01:25:31.500
they are almost certainly going to hell according to Scripture.

968
01:25:31.500 --> 01:25:34.500
Well, so James, the book of James in the Bible,

969
01:25:34.500 --> 01:25:38.500
who is actually the half brother of Jesus.

970
01:25:38.500 --> 01:25:40.500
He writes a book and he says,

971
01:25:40.500 --> 01:25:42.500
you believe that God is one.

972
01:25:42.500 --> 01:25:46.500
He says great, so do the demons.

973
01:25:46.500 --> 01:25:51.500
So the point is, like if anybody knows and believes in God,

974
01:25:51.500 --> 01:25:53.500
it's the demons, it's Satan, right?

975
01:25:53.500 --> 01:25:55.500
So what's the difference there?

976
01:25:55.500 --> 01:26:00.500
The difference is there is that there's a relational component of

977
01:26:00.500 --> 01:26:04.500
when we, in the sort of the Christianese Christian terminology,

978
01:26:04.500 --> 01:26:07.500
when I say Jesus is your Lord and your Savior,

979
01:26:07.500 --> 01:26:12.500
what I mean is that he has rescued you, has saved you from the penalties of sin and death.

980
01:26:12.500 --> 01:26:16.500
But then the Lord component is that now you have submitted your life to him

981
01:26:16.500 --> 01:26:19.500
in obedience and repentance.

982
01:26:19.500 --> 01:26:24.500
Now repentance is kind of another religious word that maybe he's not always fully understood.

983
01:26:24.500 --> 01:26:28.500
Repentance is the changing and understanding of the way you live.

984
01:26:28.500 --> 01:26:35.500
You understand that the things that you used to do that are wrong

985
01:26:35.500 --> 01:26:41.500
are not the things that are either what you should do or are going to give you fulfillment.

986
01:26:42.500 --> 01:26:47.500
And you stop doing those, not because God is a cosmic kill-join.

987
01:26:47.500 --> 01:26:51.500
He doesn't want you to feel the goodness of those things.

988
01:26:51.500 --> 01:26:55.500
But because those things are actually harmful to you, they are hurting you,

989
01:26:55.500 --> 01:27:01.500
and they are creating a separation of the relationship between you and God.

990
01:27:01.500 --> 01:27:04.500
There's going to be a very small number of people that actually live in such a way

991
01:27:04.500 --> 01:27:08.500
that are fully repented and have accepted the Lord as their Savior, right?

992
01:27:08.500 --> 01:27:13.500
I think it's 30% of people actually go to church somewhat frequently.

993
01:27:13.500 --> 01:27:17.500
And the other sort of 56% seldom will never go.

994
01:27:17.500 --> 01:27:19.500
They're not really really active in their belief.

995
01:27:19.500 --> 01:27:21.500
They probably haven't repented.

996
01:27:21.500 --> 01:27:25.500
So it would appear to me that a very small percentage of people are actually qualifying

997
01:27:25.500 --> 01:27:28.500
for the Kingdom of Heaven as it's described in the Bible.

998
01:27:28.500 --> 01:27:33.500
The miracle of this is that your salvation is received, not achieved.

999
01:27:34.500 --> 01:27:38.500
And so once again, it's not about like brownie points.

1000
01:27:38.500 --> 01:27:40.500
It's not about checking off.

1001
01:27:40.500 --> 01:27:43.500
I read the Bible as many times, I went to church as many times.

1002
01:27:43.500 --> 01:27:46.500
I didn't lie, I didn't steal, I didn't cheat, I didn't.

1003
01:27:46.500 --> 01:27:50.500
Because we still exist in this beautiful, yet broken world.

1004
01:27:50.500 --> 01:27:56.500
And because we live in a world that is marred by the brokenness of the fall.

1005
01:27:56.500 --> 01:28:00.500
Of our first parents, Adam and Eve, making that decision to rebel against God

1006
01:28:00.500 --> 01:28:05.500
with that, now the creation itself has been affected.

1007
01:28:05.500 --> 01:28:09.500
It's not about trying to earn my way into heaven.

1008
01:28:09.500 --> 01:28:13.500
So is it a very small percentage of people who are actually repenting?

1009
01:28:13.500 --> 01:28:14.500
Maybe.

1010
01:28:14.500 --> 01:28:22.500
But what of those, what of that percentage is attempt who fully understands?

1011
01:28:22.500 --> 01:28:26.500
It's interesting the word that we translate as repentance is the Greek word metanoia.

1012
01:28:26.500 --> 01:28:28.500
It means change your mind.

1013
01:28:28.500 --> 01:28:32.500
And so there's an aspect of, it's not just about the doing.

1014
01:28:32.500 --> 01:28:37.500
It's an understanding, it's a component of, I don't want to do these things.

1015
01:28:37.500 --> 01:28:42.500
Even when I do them, I don't want to lie anymore.

1016
01:28:42.500 --> 01:28:46.500
Like I see the harm that causes and the brokenness that it creates.

1017
01:28:46.500 --> 01:28:52.500
And so even if I'm still breaking the law of God, right?

1018
01:28:52.500 --> 01:28:55.500
So in the book of James that I mentioned, there's this part where James says,

1019
01:28:55.500 --> 01:29:00.500
if you break one rule in the law, it's as if you broken them all.

1020
01:29:00.500 --> 01:29:02.500
And I've sometimes used this illustration of it.

1021
01:29:02.500 --> 01:29:06.500
It's like you're hanging off a cliff on a linked chain, right?

1022
01:29:06.500 --> 01:29:10.500
If you cut any of those links, you're going to fall, right?

1023
01:29:10.500 --> 01:29:12.500
It's no longer holding you.

1024
01:29:12.500 --> 01:29:16.500
That's kind of the thinking that I think James is getting at when he writes that.

1025
01:29:16.500 --> 01:29:21.500
So you referenced the original sin which is Adam and Eve taking the apple or fruit.

1026
01:29:21.500 --> 01:29:23.500
Or the fruit, whatever it might be.

1027
01:29:23.500 --> 01:29:24.500
God made Adam and Eve.

1028
01:29:24.500 --> 01:29:25.500
He's only put on the niscient.

1029
01:29:25.500 --> 01:29:27.500
When he made them, he knew they were going to take the apple.

1030
01:29:27.500 --> 01:29:29.500
But he made them anyway.

1031
01:29:29.500 --> 01:29:31.500
So that sounds like a setup.

1032
01:29:31.500 --> 01:29:33.500
You could read it as a setup.

1033
01:29:33.500 --> 01:29:35.500
I think more so what's going on.

1034
01:29:35.500 --> 01:29:40.500
I think what strikes me as more amazing is that God did it anyways

1035
01:29:40.500 --> 01:29:42.500
and he didn't hit the restart button.

1036
01:29:42.500 --> 01:29:45.500
And then he knew that when he made them,

1037
01:29:45.500 --> 01:29:50.500
that it would result in this thousands and thousands of years of people worshipping him.

1038
01:29:50.500 --> 01:29:52.500
I think you'd think I was a bad person.

1039
01:29:52.500 --> 01:29:55.500
If I made something knowing that it was going to make a mistake

1040
01:29:55.500 --> 01:29:58.500
and that mistake would result in people worshipping me for the next forever.

1041
01:29:58.500 --> 01:29:59.500
Sure.

1042
01:29:59.500 --> 01:30:02.500
You would say I did this to get you to worship me.

1043
01:30:02.500 --> 01:30:03.500
Sure.

1044
01:30:03.500 --> 01:30:08.500
And to basically make you live in guilt that I created.

1045
01:30:08.500 --> 01:30:10.500
I mean, logically that's like holds.

1046
01:30:10.500 --> 01:30:11.500
What's wrong with that logically?

1047
01:30:11.500 --> 01:30:14.500
Well, I think you could read it like that.

1048
01:30:14.500 --> 01:30:18.500
I think ultimately then this might sound like a cop out to some,

1049
01:30:18.500 --> 01:30:20.500
but maybe God knows something we don't.

1050
01:30:20.500 --> 01:30:21.500
Maybe.

1051
01:30:21.500 --> 01:30:26.500
And that he has reasons for allowing evil that maybe we don't understand

1052
01:30:26.500 --> 01:30:28.500
and can't comprehend because he is God.

1053
01:30:28.500 --> 01:30:31.500
There's an interesting thing in both the book of Revelation

1054
01:30:31.500 --> 01:30:33.500
and in one of the letters of Peter,

1055
01:30:33.500 --> 01:30:38.500
where it basically says from before the foundation of the world was laid,

1056
01:30:38.500 --> 01:30:39.500
the Lamb was slain.

1057
01:30:39.500 --> 01:30:42.500
So Jesus was crucified.

1058
01:30:42.500 --> 01:30:47.500
The cross, that whole bringing back people in unity and relationship

1059
01:30:47.500 --> 01:30:52.500
with God via this act of the only innocent person who ever lived

1060
01:30:52.500 --> 01:30:54.500
being murdered on the cross, right?

1061
01:30:54.500 --> 01:30:57.500
A great act of evil accomplishing a lot of good.

1062
01:30:57.500 --> 01:31:00.500
Once again, not the way I would do it if I was God, right?

1063
01:31:00.500 --> 01:31:03.500
There's all sorts of things that we think, you know,

1064
01:31:03.500 --> 01:31:05.500
if I was God, I do it like this.

1065
01:31:05.500 --> 01:31:06.500
Thank goodness I'm not God.

1066
01:31:06.500 --> 01:31:08.500
I would get a whole lot of things wrong.

1067
01:31:08.500 --> 01:31:10.500
You wouldn't want to live in that world.

1068
01:31:10.500 --> 01:31:15.500
But I think what's interesting is that the cross was not a contingency plan.

1069
01:31:15.500 --> 01:31:17.500
The cross was the plan all the way along.

1070
01:31:17.500 --> 01:31:22.500
And so God is glorified in that act.

1071
01:31:22.500 --> 01:31:24.500
And I think part of it is what I was saying before.

1072
01:31:24.500 --> 01:31:28.500
If God is love, if love is the greatest ethic,

1073
01:31:28.500 --> 01:31:35.500
and the greatest ethic is expressed in the greatest example which is self-sacrifice,

1074
01:31:35.500 --> 01:31:39.500
then God is actually communicating the greatest ethic in the greatest possible way

1075
01:31:39.500 --> 01:31:45.500
in what we see in the gospel message of how he accomplishes

1076
01:31:45.500 --> 01:31:51.500
the unification with his people for the goodness and glory of who he is.

1077
01:31:51.500 --> 01:31:57.500
And do I understand all the complexities and mysteries that go in conjunction with that?

1078
01:31:57.500 --> 01:31:58.500
No.

1079
01:31:58.500 --> 01:32:05.500
But I'm convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the historical and the philosophical case

1080
01:32:05.500 --> 01:32:12.500
for the existence of God and then that God specifically being the God that is articulated in the Bible is true.

1081
01:32:12.500 --> 01:32:21.500
And on that basis, I am willing to submit my life because of both the evidence

1082
01:32:21.500 --> 01:32:25.500
and because I've actually seen my own life change radically.

1083
01:32:25.500 --> 01:32:26.500
So you're a friend, right?

1084
01:32:26.500 --> 01:32:33.500
You say like you've seen an actual experiential change in that person's life.

1085
01:32:33.500 --> 01:32:34.500
Oh yeah.

1086
01:32:34.500 --> 01:32:37.500
So my friend, I talked about him anonymously on here,

1087
01:32:37.500 --> 01:32:41.500
but he then clipped it posted on his Instagram and said,

1088
01:32:41.500 --> 01:32:42.500
Stephen's talking about me.

1089
01:32:42.500 --> 01:32:43.500
Okay.

1090
01:32:43.500 --> 01:32:44.500
And he's like doing some interviews and stuff now.

1091
01:32:44.500 --> 01:32:46.500
So I feel more comfortable talking about him more publicly.

1092
01:32:46.500 --> 01:32:50.500
But yeah, my friend who was going through a little bit of a crisis of meaning in his life

1093
01:32:50.500 --> 01:32:53.500
was living in Dubai in this penthouse apartment, single kind of alone,

1094
01:32:53.500 --> 01:32:59.500
remote working, all those kinds of very individualistic lifestyle, successful in a material

1095
01:32:59.500 --> 01:33:02.500
sense, all of a sudden turned to Christianity,

1096
01:33:02.500 --> 01:33:06.500
flew to America, got baptized and is now Christian.

1097
01:33:06.500 --> 01:33:07.500
Yeah.

1098
01:33:07.500 --> 01:33:10.500
And would I say he is happier than before?

1099
01:33:10.500 --> 01:33:11.500
100%.

1100
01:33:11.500 --> 01:33:14.500
Would I say I am very glad he became Christian?

1101
01:33:14.500 --> 01:33:16.500
100%.

1102
01:33:16.500 --> 01:33:19.500
Would I say that I believe his future is going to be better because he's now Christian?

1103
01:33:19.500 --> 01:33:20.500
100%.

1104
01:33:20.500 --> 01:33:21.500
That's a lot of 100%.

1105
01:33:21.500 --> 01:33:22.500
No, but it's true.

1106
01:33:22.500 --> 01:33:23.500
It's objectively true.

1107
01:33:23.500 --> 01:33:26.500
Like I even speak to, well, we've been friends for decades and all of us feel the same way.

1108
01:33:26.500 --> 01:33:27.500
Right.

1109
01:33:27.500 --> 01:33:29.500
And we didn't even have to agree with what he believes to think.

1110
01:33:29.500 --> 01:33:31.500
Actually, he's, it's helped him.

1111
01:33:31.500 --> 01:33:36.500
Well, any in that, I don't think that I think there's an objectivity to the actual evidence

1112
01:33:36.500 --> 01:33:40.500
that I evaluate in terms of the historical reliability of the Bible

1113
01:33:40.500 --> 01:33:45.500
and the philosophical explanations for meaning and purpose and morality,

1114
01:33:45.500 --> 01:33:51.500
how we ground those, the scientific data of a universe that looks like it's fine-tuned

1115
01:33:51.500 --> 01:33:55.500
and has intelligence designed into it.

1116
01:33:55.500 --> 01:34:01.500
But the subjectivity of how I understand my life and have seen it change radically

1117
01:34:01.500 --> 01:34:05.500
and what you see in your friend is not inconsequential.

1118
01:34:05.500 --> 01:34:06.500
No, it's not.

1119
01:34:06.500 --> 01:34:13.500
And it, it, it testifies to something, it testifies to a hope that even in Scripture,

1120
01:34:13.500 --> 01:34:19.500
in 1 Peter 3, Peter, writing to the disperse church and ancient world,

1121
01:34:19.500 --> 01:34:23.500
has this in the context of persecution, says,

1122
01:34:23.500 --> 01:34:27.500
but in your heart, severe crisis, Lord, always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you

1123
01:34:27.500 --> 01:34:30.500
to give a reason for the hope that you have, but do so with gentleness and respect

1124
01:34:30.500 --> 01:34:34.500
to keeping a clear conscience so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior

1125
01:34:34.500 --> 01:34:36.500
and Christ will be ashamed of their slander.

1126
01:34:36.500 --> 01:34:40.500
And there's this implication that always be prepared to give an answer to everyone

1127
01:34:40.500 --> 01:34:43.500
who asks you for an argument for the existence of God.

1128
01:34:43.500 --> 01:34:44.500
No, that's not what he says.

1129
01:34:44.500 --> 01:34:48.500
He says, to give the reason for the hope that you have.

1130
01:34:48.500 --> 01:34:53.500
Your friend is communicating a hope that you took notice of.

1131
01:34:53.500 --> 01:34:58.500
And I think that is literally the word to give an answer that we translate as,

1132
01:34:58.500 --> 01:35:02.500
to give an answer to a defense or a reason in many English Bible translations,

1133
01:35:02.500 --> 01:35:07.500
is the Greek word apologia, to give an apologetic, to give a defense.

1134
01:35:07.500 --> 01:35:13.500
And scripturally, Scripture does call us to love the Lord our God with all of our money.

1135
01:35:13.500 --> 01:35:15.500
And I think there's an aspect of God.

1136
01:35:15.500 --> 01:35:18.500
If my friend Tim Barnett works for actually stand to reason,

1137
01:35:18.500 --> 01:35:23.500
which is Greg Coco's organization, you had Greg in your panel discussion recently.

1138
01:35:23.500 --> 01:35:27.500
My friend Tim says, if you want to know the mind of God, you better start by using your own.

1139
01:35:27.500 --> 01:35:31.500
And so in that way, I think we can worship God through that.

1140
01:35:31.500 --> 01:35:35.500
There's a component of God has endowed us with intelligence.

1141
01:35:35.500 --> 01:35:41.500
And we can use that to speak to the things that he has actually created

1142
01:35:41.500 --> 01:35:44.500
and the evidence for that.

1143
01:35:44.500 --> 01:35:49.500
But at the same time, the hope of the life changed,

1144
01:35:49.500 --> 01:35:55.500
of to use, you know, Jesus's own language in John 3.

1145
01:35:55.500 --> 01:36:00.500
Being born again, I think also communicates something that is genuinely profound.

1146
01:36:00.500 --> 01:36:02.500
I agree.

1147
01:36:02.500 --> 01:36:09.500
And I would have said that maybe if he had converted to pretty much any of the major religions

1148
01:36:09.500 --> 01:36:12.500
he would have experienced the same transformative upside.

1149
01:36:12.500 --> 01:36:17.500
And when you look at people that do convert to other religions in outside of Christianity,

1150
01:36:17.500 --> 01:36:22.500
they do experience a greater sense of meaning and community and all the things that come with it

1151
01:36:22.500 --> 01:36:26.500
that gives them that sense of belonging and maybe calms their anxieties and their worries and their nihilism

1152
01:36:26.500 --> 01:36:29.500
to a point where they can live a bit more of a content life.

1153
01:36:29.500 --> 01:36:34.500
So is that evidence of Christianity or is that just evidence that we're all in search of meaning in a world

1154
01:36:34.500 --> 01:36:38.500
that's increasingly nihilistic and individualistic and says that there's nothing other than,

1155
01:36:38.500 --> 01:36:40.500
as you say, like, times-based matter.

1156
01:36:40.500 --> 01:36:41.500
Yeah.

1157
01:36:41.500 --> 01:36:42.500
No, that's a great point.

1158
01:36:42.500 --> 01:36:43.500
I don't think it's arbitrary.

1159
01:36:43.500 --> 01:36:48.500
I think, you know, there's an aspect of religiosity that is always going to be a net positive for society,

1160
01:36:48.500 --> 01:36:50.500
you know, no matter what that religion is,

1161
01:36:50.500 --> 01:36:55.500
because I think it's going to give an aspect of purpose and identity to people.

1162
01:36:55.500 --> 01:37:01.500
At the exact same time, I don't think it's just the subjective point of view, right?

1163
01:37:01.500 --> 01:37:05.500
That's why I think it's very dangerous when I go out,

1164
01:37:05.500 --> 01:37:10.500
so I used to work for a minister organization that worked on university campuses.

1165
01:37:10.500 --> 01:37:14.500
And we would go and we would talk with students and I,

1166
01:37:14.500 --> 01:37:18.500
too many times to count, would hear a student ask another student,

1167
01:37:18.500 --> 01:37:20.500
why do you believe in Christianity?

1168
01:37:20.500 --> 01:37:24.500
And they would then proceed in articulating how they became a Christian.

1169
01:37:24.500 --> 01:37:26.500
Well, that's not the answer, right?

1170
01:37:26.500 --> 01:37:28.500
That's not actually the question they asked.

1171
01:37:28.500 --> 01:37:30.500
Why do you believe it's true?

1172
01:37:30.500 --> 01:37:35.500
And you answered with how you kind of got into this group.

1173
01:37:35.500 --> 01:37:38.500
If they had ran into a Buddhist, they said,

1174
01:37:38.500 --> 01:37:40.500
why do you believe Buddhism is true?

1175
01:37:40.500 --> 01:37:43.500
And you say, you know, well, I just met these really great people on campus

1176
01:37:43.500 --> 01:37:46.500
and they invited me over for, you know, karma discussions in pizza

1177
01:37:46.500 --> 01:37:48.500
and it's radically changed my life.

1178
01:37:48.500 --> 01:37:54.500
And I, you know, follow the noble truths and the path of the Buddha and it's changed my life.

1179
01:37:55.500 --> 01:38:00.500
When you give them that story, now I don't, I don't want people to hear me saying that

1180
01:38:00.500 --> 01:38:03.500
giving your testimony is not a good thing to do.

1181
01:38:03.500 --> 01:38:08.500
I just think there's a time and a place where it could have been any situation.

1182
01:38:08.500 --> 01:38:10.500
It sounds convenient.

1183
01:38:10.500 --> 01:38:15.500
You could have ran into a Muslim or a Mormon or a Buddhist or a Hindu

1184
01:38:15.500 --> 01:38:18.500
and just stumbled into those conversations.

1185
01:38:19.500 --> 01:38:26.500
And that's where I think answering why I believe it's true is more than just that.

1186
01:38:26.500 --> 01:38:28.500
It's no less than that.

1187
01:38:28.500 --> 01:38:30.500
But it's more than that.

1188
01:38:30.500 --> 01:38:34.500
Because I believe that the multivalent argument for the truthfulness of the

1189
01:38:34.500 --> 01:38:40.500
capital T of Christianity has a historical backing and a philosophical backing,

1190
01:38:40.500 --> 01:38:43.500
a scientific backing and psychological backing and all of those things.

1191
01:38:43.500 --> 01:38:45.500
And I bet your friend would say it too.

1192
01:38:45.500 --> 01:38:46.500
Oh, yeah, I bet he would.

1193
01:38:46.500 --> 01:38:47.500
Yeah.

1194
01:38:47.500 --> 01:38:52.500
And in one sense, my goal is to adhere to truth of the capital T,

1195
01:38:52.500 --> 01:38:54.500
even above my legions to Jesus.

1196
01:38:54.500 --> 01:38:57.500
Now, I believe Jesus is the truth of the capital T.

1197
01:38:57.500 --> 01:39:00.500
So I don't think that there's a conflict of interest there.

1198
01:39:00.500 --> 01:39:05.500
But I, I want to follow what's true.

1199
01:39:05.500 --> 01:39:11.500
Because even if it's a convenient lie, it's still a lie and I don't want to live my life for a lie.

1200
01:39:12.500 --> 01:39:15.500
New Year always has a strange energy to it because people start talking about

1201
01:39:15.500 --> 01:39:17.500
their goals, fresh starts and new habits.

1202
01:39:17.500 --> 01:39:21.500
But the reality is that most people carry the same ideas they had last year into the

1203
01:39:21.500 --> 01:39:22.500
New Year.

1204
01:39:22.500 --> 01:39:23.500
I'm guilty of that too.

1205
01:39:23.500 --> 01:39:25.500
And they still don't end up doing anything with them.

1206
01:39:25.500 --> 01:39:28.500
And I get why starting something new, especially if it's a business or a project

1207
01:39:28.500 --> 01:39:29.500
is overwhelming.

1208
01:39:29.500 --> 01:39:32.500
Before you start, you're looking for the perfect moment and to be the perfect version

1209
01:39:32.500 --> 01:39:36.500
of yourself when really what matters most is taking that first step.

1210
01:39:36.500 --> 01:39:40.500
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1211
01:39:40.500 --> 01:39:45.500
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1214
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1215
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1216
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1217
01:40:03.500 --> 01:40:07.500
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1218
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1219
01:40:10.500 --> 01:40:12.500
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1220
01:40:12.500 --> 01:40:15.500
This is something that I've made for you.

1221
01:40:15.500 --> 01:40:19.500
I've realized that the Diaries here audience are strivers, whether it's in business or health.

1222
01:40:19.500 --> 01:40:21.500
We all have big goals that we want to accomplish.

1223
01:40:21.500 --> 01:40:26.500
And one of the things I've learnt is that when you aim at the big, big, big goal,

1224
01:40:26.500 --> 01:40:31.500
it can feel incredibly psychologically uncomfortable because it's kind of like

1225
01:40:31.500 --> 01:40:33.500
being stood at the foot of Mount Everest and looking upwards.

1226
01:40:33.500 --> 01:40:38.500
The way to accomplish your goals is by breaking them down into tiny small steps.

1227
01:40:38.500 --> 01:40:40.500
And we call this an R team the 1%.

1228
01:40:40.500 --> 01:40:44.500
And actually this philosophy is highly responsible for much of our success here.

1229
01:40:44.500 --> 01:40:49.500
So what we've done so that you at home can accomplish any big goal that you have is

1230
01:40:49.500 --> 01:40:51.500
we've made these 1% diaries.

1231
01:40:51.500 --> 01:40:54.500
And we've released these last year and they all sold out.

1232
01:40:54.500 --> 01:40:57.500
So I asked my team over and over again to bring the diaries back,

1233
01:40:57.500 --> 01:41:00.500
but also to introduce some new colors and to make some minor tweaks to the diaries.

1234
01:41:01.500 --> 01:41:05.500
So now we have a better range for you.

1235
01:41:05.500 --> 01:41:10.500
So if you have a big goal in mind and you need a framework and a process and some motivation

1236
01:41:10.500 --> 01:41:15.500
then I highly recommend you get one of these diaries before they all sell out once again.

1237
01:41:15.500 --> 01:41:18.500
And you can get yours at the diary.com.

1238
01:41:18.500 --> 01:41:21.500
And if you want the link, the link is in the description below.

1239
01:41:21.500 --> 01:41:24.500
On that point, one of the things that really convinced me when I was saying

1240
01:41:24.500 --> 01:41:28.500
when I was going through my little atheism phase was this geography argument

1241
01:41:28.500 --> 01:41:30.500
which I'm sure you've had a million times.

1242
01:41:30.500 --> 01:41:32.500
If I'd been born in Saudi Arabia, I'd probably be a Muslim.

1243
01:41:32.500 --> 01:41:35.500
If I'd been born in India, I'd probably be Hindu.

1244
01:41:35.500 --> 01:41:39.500
So it seems like the religion you believe entirely depends on where you were born,

1245
01:41:39.500 --> 01:41:42.500
not on necessarily what is true.

1246
01:41:42.500 --> 01:41:46.500
And therefore if we go back to this point about hell, I remember thinking at like 19 years old,

1247
01:41:46.500 --> 01:41:50.500
oh my god, actually where you're born is determining whether you go to this fiery,

1248
01:41:50.500 --> 01:41:52.500
eternal suffering or not.

1249
01:41:52.500 --> 01:41:55.500
And that's not fair. So this must all be not true.

1250
01:41:55.500 --> 01:41:57.500
Yeah, I mean, I was born in Pakistan.

1251
01:41:57.500 --> 01:42:01.500
So I was born in a majority Muslim country and I'm not a Muslim.

1252
01:42:01.500 --> 01:42:03.500
And you could argue my parents weren't Muslims.

1253
01:42:03.500 --> 01:42:05.500
But I know tons of people who were.

1254
01:42:05.500 --> 01:42:09.500
My colleague Steve, who is our Alberta director at Apologetic Canada,

1255
01:42:09.500 --> 01:42:14.500
he was born in Korea and went to a school setting that was Buddhist.

1256
01:42:14.500 --> 01:42:16.500
But the numbers are the numbers.

1257
01:42:16.500 --> 01:42:18.500
You're like 95%. I don't know what the numbers are.

1258
01:42:18.500 --> 01:42:22.500
But I know it's over 90% likely to be the religion of that territory

1259
01:42:22.500 --> 01:42:24.500
if you take it on a religion at all.

1260
01:42:24.500 --> 01:42:26.500
I'm just by where you were born.

1261
01:42:26.500 --> 01:42:28.500
And that doesn't fit. I remember thinking very clearly at 19 years old,

1262
01:42:28.500 --> 01:42:29.500
this doesn't feel fair.

1263
01:42:29.500 --> 01:42:30.500
Sure.

1264
01:42:30.500 --> 01:42:32.500
As a way to determine who gets into hell of heaven,

1265
01:42:32.500 --> 01:42:34.500
which is like my parents and where they conceived me or whatever.

1266
01:42:34.500 --> 01:42:36.500
Sure. I mean, in one sense, you don't want fair.

1267
01:42:36.500 --> 01:42:38.500
Because fair is you going to hell.

1268
01:42:38.500 --> 01:42:41.500
And the gospel message is not fair, right?

1269
01:42:41.500 --> 01:42:45.500
So the actual gospel message is not about fairness,

1270
01:42:45.500 --> 01:42:52.500
because fairness is I get the just penalty for what I do, right?

1271
01:42:52.500 --> 01:42:55.500
And that's where the whole concept of mercy and grace

1272
01:42:55.500 --> 01:42:59.500
are so, they're so central to the Christian message,

1273
01:42:59.500 --> 01:43:04.500
is Buddhism and Hinduism are based on fairness.

1274
01:43:04.500 --> 01:43:06.500
Soly based on fairness, right?

1275
01:43:06.500 --> 01:43:09.500
The cycle of samsara of life, death, birth, and rebirth,

1276
01:43:09.500 --> 01:43:12.500
the karmic cycles, that's fair.

1277
01:43:12.500 --> 01:43:17.500
In one sense, what God does when he intervenes in humanity,

1278
01:43:17.500 --> 01:43:20.500
when he incarnates becomes flesh,

1279
01:43:20.500 --> 01:43:22.500
steps into humanity,

1280
01:43:22.500 --> 01:43:25.500
and actually experiences pain and hurt and suffering and death

1281
01:43:25.500 --> 01:43:28.500
in a way that makes the God of the Bible unique

1282
01:43:28.500 --> 01:43:31.500
and actually experiential to what you and I go through

1283
01:43:31.500 --> 01:43:33.500
when we have those struggles and doubts.

1284
01:43:33.500 --> 01:43:39.500
He then takes on the punishment that we deserve

1285
01:43:39.500 --> 01:43:46.500
and the fairness is not actually what is then given,

1286
01:43:46.500 --> 01:43:51.500
because the fairness is west half,

1287
01:43:51.500 --> 01:43:54.500
getting what he actually deserves for the weight

1288
01:43:54.500 --> 01:43:58.500
and the penalty of his cosmic rebellion

1289
01:43:58.500 --> 01:44:03.500
in choosing a life that is against and away from God.

1290
01:44:03.500 --> 01:44:04.500
I'm unclear.

1291
01:44:04.500 --> 01:44:06.500
Okay. So if I had moral components,

1292
01:44:06.500 --> 01:44:08.500
my probability of being Muslim is like 99%.

1293
01:44:08.500 --> 01:44:09.500
Sure.

1294
01:44:09.500 --> 01:44:11.500
And if I was born in Morocco,

1295
01:44:11.500 --> 01:44:14.500
that would kind of set me up to go to hell theoretically.

1296
01:44:14.500 --> 01:44:19.500
Yes, insofar as you're either you're taking on your sin

1297
01:44:19.500 --> 01:44:24.500
and that's the punishment or Christ is taking on your sin

1298
01:44:24.500 --> 01:44:31.500
and then you are then covered in his intercession.

1299
01:44:31.500 --> 01:44:32.500
Okay.

1300
01:44:32.500 --> 01:44:34.500
But it's not about believing or not believing.

1301
01:44:34.500 --> 01:44:36.500
Yeah, which you explained earlier.

1302
01:44:36.500 --> 01:44:37.500
Yeah.

1303
01:44:37.500 --> 01:44:38.500
Which was useful for me,

1304
01:44:38.500 --> 01:44:40.500
because that gave me a new understanding

1305
01:44:40.500 --> 01:44:42.500
that I didn't have previously.

1306
01:44:42.500 --> 01:44:45.500
The other thing I thought a lot about was prayer.

1307
01:44:45.500 --> 01:44:47.500
So this was really compelling to me when I was younger,

1308
01:44:47.500 --> 01:44:50.500
which was, you know, I would hear these stories

1309
01:44:50.500 --> 01:44:52.500
of horrific things that had happened in the world

1310
01:44:52.500 --> 01:44:54.500
with you think about what happened in Nazi Germany

1311
01:44:54.500 --> 01:44:56.500
and I'd hear that the people there were very religious and praying

1312
01:44:56.500 --> 01:44:59.500
and it didn't seem to change the odds of their fate.

1313
01:44:59.500 --> 01:45:02.500
And when you look at hospital stats of Christians versus non-Christians,

1314
01:45:02.500 --> 01:45:06.500
generally praying doesn't seem to be impacting outcome.

1315
01:45:06.500 --> 01:45:09.500
So therefore I concluded as like a 19 year old

1316
01:45:09.500 --> 01:45:12.500
that maybe praying doesn't work and why people doing it

1317
01:45:12.500 --> 01:45:16.500
when it doesn't seem to historically have worked.

1318
01:45:16.500 --> 01:45:18.500
What is your perspective?

1319
01:45:18.500 --> 01:45:19.500
Does praying work?

1320
01:45:19.500 --> 01:45:21.500
If my child is sick and I start praying,

1321
01:45:21.500 --> 01:45:23.500
is that gonna help?

1322
01:45:23.500 --> 01:45:28.500
I mean, it also kind of begs the question of what we think prayer is.

1323
01:45:28.500 --> 01:45:33.500
Is prayer incantations to placate God?

1324
01:45:33.500 --> 01:45:34.500
What does that mean?

1325
01:45:34.500 --> 01:45:36.500
Like, is God a genie, right?

1326
01:45:36.500 --> 01:45:40.500
So I say the right prayer is and he gives me what I want.

1327
01:45:40.500 --> 01:45:42.500
Now there are some religious systems

1328
01:45:42.500 --> 01:45:44.500
that that is kind of what prayer is.

1329
01:45:44.500 --> 01:45:48.500
It's all the agricultural deities of the ancient Near East.

1330
01:45:48.500 --> 01:45:50.500
Like you say the right things

1331
01:45:50.500 --> 01:45:52.500
and you give the right sacrifices

1332
01:45:52.500 --> 01:45:55.500
and the hope is that the gods would accept that

1333
01:45:55.500 --> 01:45:58.500
and then they then, you know,

1334
01:45:58.500 --> 01:46:02.500
in the reciprocal nature of that, they give you good crops.

1335
01:46:02.500 --> 01:46:05.500
I think prayer in Christianity is a give and take

1336
01:46:05.500 --> 01:46:07.500
in that it's a relational thing.

1337
01:46:07.500 --> 01:46:13.500
It's God desiring to have communication with you.

1338
01:46:13.500 --> 01:46:16.500
If you read the Psalms, a lot of which are prayers.

1339
01:46:16.500 --> 01:46:18.500
Even, you know, I mentioned the lament Psalms.

1340
01:46:18.500 --> 01:46:21.500
Like it's David or whoever, the Psalmist coming to God

1341
01:46:21.500 --> 01:46:23.500
and saying, I don't get it.

1342
01:46:23.500 --> 01:46:25.500
I'm hurting. I'm broken. I'm alone.

1343
01:46:25.500 --> 01:46:27.500
I don't feel you.

1344
01:46:27.500 --> 01:46:30.500
There is an aspect of the relational component of prayer.

1345
01:46:30.500 --> 01:46:33.500
You know, prayer is not just that, right?

1346
01:46:33.500 --> 01:46:36.500
Prayer is, you know, asking is,

1347
01:46:36.500 --> 01:46:41.500
is supplications is committing your desires to God

1348
01:46:41.500 --> 01:46:44.500
because you believe that God can actually work in the universe

1349
01:46:44.500 --> 01:46:45.500
and do things.

1350
01:46:45.500 --> 01:46:47.500
And that's kind of what the Bible says.

1351
01:46:47.500 --> 01:46:48.500
It says, pour out your hearts to him.

1352
01:46:48.500 --> 01:46:51.500
Call him and come to me and I will answer you in Jeremiah.

1353
01:46:51.500 --> 01:46:56.500
And it also says, ask and it will be given to you in Matthew.

1354
01:46:56.500 --> 01:46:58.500
Yeah, so you can you will find.

1355
01:46:58.500 --> 01:47:00.500
Not because the door will be opened on to you.

1356
01:47:00.500 --> 01:47:03.500
I mean, part of those is that there's a little bit of a trickiness

1357
01:47:03.500 --> 01:47:06.500
in quote mining because the context could mean prayer,

1358
01:47:06.500 --> 01:47:10.500
the context could mean, you know, the, the salvific act of God,

1359
01:47:10.500 --> 01:47:13.500
you know, knock in the door, shall be opened on to you.

1360
01:47:13.500 --> 01:47:16.500
I could be, if you are actually seeking God

1361
01:47:16.500 --> 01:47:19.500
and you're doing that with an open heart and an open mind,

1362
01:47:19.500 --> 01:47:23.500
God is going to say, you know, yes, I'm entering into your life.

1363
01:47:23.500 --> 01:47:25.500
I'm doing, I'm revealing myself to you.

1364
01:47:25.500 --> 01:47:27.500
Now, God can answer yes.

1365
01:47:27.500 --> 01:47:30.500
God can answer no and God can answer wait.

1366
01:47:30.500 --> 01:47:32.500
Those are all answers to prayer.

1367
01:47:32.500 --> 01:47:34.500
Do you think God answers prayers?

1368
01:47:34.500 --> 01:47:35.500
Yes.

1369
01:47:35.500 --> 01:47:38.500
And is there a certain type of prayer he might answer?

1370
01:47:38.500 --> 01:47:41.500
You know, because if I lose my keys, I'll please help me find my keys.

1371
01:47:41.500 --> 01:47:43.500
I assume he might not answer that one.

1372
01:47:43.500 --> 01:47:46.500
But is there a certain type of prayer you think God answers?

1373
01:47:46.500 --> 01:47:49.500
I don't think it's, I don't think it's a magical formula.

1374
01:47:49.500 --> 01:47:50.500
Okay.

1375
01:47:50.500 --> 01:47:54.500
I think, you know, the thing that we see within Christianity

1376
01:47:54.500 --> 01:48:00.500
is that prayer is a relational aspect.

1377
01:48:00.500 --> 01:48:02.500
Like there are, so when the disciples I mentioned earlier,

1378
01:48:02.500 --> 01:48:04.500
they asked Jesus, how should we pray?

1379
01:48:04.500 --> 01:48:05.500
And he gives the Lord's prayer.

1380
01:48:05.500 --> 01:48:09.500
In some ways, that's less of a prescription.

1381
01:48:09.500 --> 01:48:11.500
You know, say these words in the right way.

1382
01:48:11.500 --> 01:48:15.500
Because even Jesus says, you know, don't babble like the pagans do.

1383
01:48:15.500 --> 01:48:19.500
But there's an aspect of our Father, who art in heaven.

1384
01:48:19.500 --> 01:48:21.500
Like a recognition of who God is.

1385
01:48:21.500 --> 01:48:23.500
Holy be your name.

1386
01:48:23.500 --> 01:48:24.500
Right?

1387
01:48:24.500 --> 01:48:25.500
Your kingdom come.

1388
01:48:25.500 --> 01:48:28.500
Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

1389
01:48:28.500 --> 01:48:30.500
Give us this day our daily bread.

1390
01:48:30.500 --> 01:48:31.500
Right?

1391
01:48:31.500 --> 01:48:34.500
There's a, you know, give us the provision that we need.

1392
01:48:34.500 --> 01:48:36.500
Give us this day our daily bread.

1393
01:48:36.500 --> 01:48:39.500
And forgive us our trespasses, our sins.

1394
01:48:39.500 --> 01:48:42.500
As we forgive those who sin against us.

1395
01:48:42.500 --> 01:48:43.500
That's an interesting one.

1396
01:48:43.500 --> 01:48:46.500
Because we're asking God to forgive us like we forgive others.

1397
01:48:46.500 --> 01:48:48.500
So it's going to be dangerous sometimes, right?

1398
01:48:48.500 --> 01:48:50.500
Maybe I don't want to pray that all the time.

1399
01:48:50.500 --> 01:48:54.500
For yours is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever and ever in heaven.

1400
01:48:54.500 --> 01:49:00.500
So in some ways, is that God telling us, is that Jesus telling us how to pray exactly?

1401
01:49:00.500 --> 01:49:02.500
I don't think that's not a part of it.

1402
01:49:02.500 --> 01:49:04.500
But I also think that, you know, there's an aspect of it.

1403
01:49:04.500 --> 01:49:05.500
Recognize who God is.

1404
01:49:05.500 --> 01:49:07.500
Recognize who you are.

1405
01:49:07.500 --> 01:49:10.500
You know, do ask for provision.

1406
01:49:10.500 --> 01:49:12.500
Do ask for things that you need.

1407
01:49:12.500 --> 01:49:14.500
And even that you want.

1408
01:49:14.500 --> 01:49:19.500
And, you know, recognize that we want this reality.

1409
01:49:19.500 --> 01:49:22.500
As earth, on earth, as it is in heaven.

1410
01:49:22.500 --> 01:49:28.500
You know, there's components of what Jesus is saying in that go beyond simply like a wrote prayer.

1411
01:49:28.500 --> 01:49:35.500
In some kind of incantation or, you know, list of, you see the right things in the right way.

1412
01:49:35.500 --> 01:49:40.500
And, you know, then God is going to, you know, that's what ancient Krakow Roman paganism was like.

1413
01:49:40.500 --> 01:49:48.500
And prayer, even if you want religious, has a basis in neuroscience that says it's really good for our well-being.

1414
01:49:48.500 --> 01:49:52.500
Neuroscience research shows that prayer activates brain networks for attention, emotional regulation,

1415
01:49:52.500 --> 01:49:54.500
and social connection while reducing stress.

1416
01:49:54.500 --> 01:49:59.500
And when they do brain ECG scans, they find people are more calm and focused when they're in states of prayer.

1417
01:49:59.500 --> 01:50:02.500
And they have greater resilience over time.

1418
01:50:02.500 --> 01:50:09.500
Which is, I mean, reason enough to have some form of active prayer, regardless of that.

1419
01:50:09.500 --> 01:50:14.500
I'm really interested in how you think about everything that's going on with technology at the moment.

1420
01:50:14.500 --> 01:50:18.500
We're living in a very interesting time. It's kind of like we're trying to summon the gods ourselves.

1421
01:50:18.500 --> 01:50:24.500
We're creating this form of intelligence that, you know, people are developing a relationship with,

1422
01:50:24.500 --> 01:50:29.500
and are speaking to every day, and we've made it on silicon chips and using these things called GPUs,

1423
01:50:29.500 --> 01:50:31.500
and it's called artificial intelligence.

1424
01:50:31.500 --> 01:50:38.500
Are you concerned by the direction of travel in this direction that we're now seeking guidance and comfort,

1425
01:50:38.500 --> 01:50:45.500
and all of these things from AI instead of this book in front of us?

1426
01:50:45.500 --> 01:50:49.500
I think there's aspects where I have concerns.

1427
01:50:49.500 --> 01:50:57.500
I mean, my colleagues, Andy Siger and Steve Kim, are more invested in these questions.

1428
01:50:57.500 --> 01:51:05.500
I think that then I am. My colleague, Andy, he did his PhD at Aberdeen in the question of philosophical anthropology.

1429
01:51:05.500 --> 01:51:11.500
What does it mean to be human? And he investigated a lot into the questions of things like AI,

1430
01:51:11.500 --> 01:51:16.500
and my colleague Steve is kind of looking into things that relate to transhumanism.

1431
01:51:16.500 --> 01:51:19.500
So, I mean, these are relevant questions to who we are.

1432
01:51:19.500 --> 01:51:26.500
I'm not convinced that the intelligence part of AI outweighs the artificial.

1433
01:51:26.500 --> 01:51:37.500
I don't see AI thinking. I see there being an aspect of the coding that AI will regurgitate,

1434
01:51:37.500 --> 01:51:42.500
but I'm not convinced that AI will ever say become conscious.

1435
01:51:42.500 --> 01:51:51.500
I think it will fake the touring test in that it will kind of attempt to convince us that it is cognizant of its own existence,

1436
01:51:51.500 --> 01:51:54.500
but I don't know if that's actually possible.

1437
01:51:54.500 --> 01:52:04.500
And I think there's something about the innateness of consciousness that we don't really know.

1438
01:52:04.500 --> 01:52:07.500
We don't really know what consciousness is.

1439
01:52:07.500 --> 01:52:16.500
There's all sorts of weird explanations of why is your brain who you are?

1440
01:52:16.500 --> 01:52:23.500
Not really, right? It's not not. We don't really have, I think, entirely sufficient answers to these questions.

1441
01:52:23.500 --> 01:52:30.500
But at the exact same time, I think it makes sense that if we are creating God's image, there's an aspect of we want to create in our image.

1442
01:52:30.500 --> 01:52:41.500
And there's going to be that outpouring of the creation of something new and amazing and advancing in our understanding and knowledge.

1443
01:52:41.500 --> 01:52:51.500
This is a kind of set to people up for this whole simulation theory argument where they say that if you imagine any rate of improvement on our current reality,

1444
01:52:51.500 --> 01:52:56.500
people are already making virtual reality worlds. If you can go on so many different programs now and type in,

1445
01:52:56.500 --> 01:53:00.500
I want to go to the top of my Everest and there's a village there.

1446
01:53:00.500 --> 01:53:07.500
And then you can experience that in three dimensions. You can put on a headset and go to the top of my Everest and there's this rendered village there.

1447
01:53:07.500 --> 01:53:17.500
If you imagine any rate of improvement, even 1% a year in this technology, eventually, whether it's in 500 years or 10,000 years,

1448
01:53:17.500 --> 01:53:22.500
you get to a point where it's almost indistinguishable from this experience that mean you're having today in the real world.

1449
01:53:22.500 --> 01:53:27.500
And so the simulation theory posits that, again, you just think about how long technology's been here.

1450
01:53:27.500 --> 01:53:32.500
It's like 50 years ago, we didn't have computers like this. We didn't even have the iPhone or phones. That's just 50 years.

1451
01:53:32.500 --> 01:53:37.500
Imagine billions of years and a rate of improvement, you get to something indistinguishable from this.

1452
01:53:37.500 --> 01:53:41.500
And it's conceivable that me and you, with computers, will run simulations,

1453
01:53:41.500 --> 01:53:46.500
will make things like the Sims and video games and GTA 6, whether that's taken forever.

1454
01:53:46.500 --> 01:53:53.500
And with an improvement of technology at any rate, those worlds will feel real theoretically to the characters within them.

1455
01:53:54.500 --> 01:53:58.500
So simulation theory posits that actually this is what our lives are.

1456
01:53:58.500 --> 01:54:04.500
There was a civilization at some point in the cosmic universe that got to that point of technological sophistication.

1457
01:54:04.500 --> 01:54:09.500
They ran a bunch of different simulations on a computer or whatever their technology was.

1458
01:54:09.500 --> 01:54:12.500
And this is one such world we're living in right now.

1459
01:54:12.500 --> 01:54:17.500
And that is actually our God. It could be some four-year-old alien that had a laptop.

1460
01:54:17.500 --> 01:54:23.500
10 gazillion years ago. And the big bang was the day that he started the simulation.

1461
01:54:23.500 --> 01:54:26.500
Almost like it was intelligently designed.

1462
01:54:26.500 --> 01:54:35.500
Actually, I think there probably is some kind of God. I just don't know what it is.

1463
01:54:35.500 --> 01:54:38.500
So I don't know whether it's the one in the book that you have in front of me here,

1464
01:54:38.500 --> 01:54:42.500
whether it's the one that they believe in the Muslim religion,

1465
01:54:42.500 --> 01:54:49.500
whether it's like a four-year-old kid on his laptop that was messing around in a technological sophisticated universe 10 billion years ago.

1466
01:54:49.500 --> 01:54:52.500
But I think there's something bigger than I am.

1467
01:54:52.500 --> 01:55:00.500
And I think the simulation theory I don't think really solves the issue because it just kind of punched the can down the road.

1468
01:55:00.500 --> 01:55:07.500
And that it still avoids the question of what is that?

1469
01:55:07.500 --> 01:55:12.500
How did we get here? And what is the ultimate explanation for everything?

1470
01:55:12.500 --> 01:55:19.500
So, probabilistically, is in the world around us, in what we see with our relational characteristics and everything,

1471
01:55:19.500 --> 01:55:23.500
is it possible that we live in a simulation? I think it is.

1472
01:55:23.500 --> 01:55:34.500
I think probabilistically, though, with how the description of creation and the human condition and what we see within history,

1473
01:55:34.500 --> 01:55:41.500
I think, personally, the God of the Bible is the most reasonable explanation, especially when we're comparing it to other religious worldviews.

1474
01:55:41.500 --> 01:55:47.500
I think the simulation theory is an interesting one, or, you know, the string theory multiple universes.

1475
01:55:47.500 --> 01:55:51.500
I just think that those are almost like we're walking around the question.

1476
01:55:51.500 --> 01:55:56.500
We're circling around the question, and it's not actually answering. We still need a God.

1477
01:55:56.500 --> 01:56:03.500
Yeah, and then, you know, even in the example I gave with the four-year-old messing around in his laptop 10 billion years ago in a technologically advanced civilization,

1478
01:56:03.500 --> 01:56:08.500
I then, my brain, a few seconds later asked, well, what was the point of his life?

1479
01:56:08.500 --> 01:56:10.500
Yeah. And who created him?

1480
01:56:10.500 --> 01:56:12.500
And I could say the same about God, I guess.

1481
01:56:12.500 --> 01:56:16.500
Like the God of the Christian Bible, like, who created this God?

1482
01:56:16.500 --> 01:56:19.500
Did someone create this God, or is this just, as you always been there?

1483
01:56:19.500 --> 01:56:27.500
Right. I mean, philosophically, it's a category error, because all things that have a beginning, have a creator,

1484
01:56:27.500 --> 01:56:33.500
and philosophically, the God of the Bible is an entity that ontologically didn't have a beginning.

1485
01:56:33.500 --> 01:56:44.500
So, if we're talking about an unmoved mover, right, in the kind of Aristotelian categories of philosophy,

1486
01:56:44.500 --> 01:56:48.500
God didn't have a creator because God is the author of creation.

1487
01:56:48.500 --> 01:56:49.500
Okay.

1488
01:56:49.500 --> 01:56:51.500
It's kind of like asking, what does Blue smell like?

1489
01:56:51.500 --> 01:56:59.500
And God, I should think of as like a, you know, in the Bible, in the Bible, but in depictions of God, it's like a guy with a beard.

1490
01:56:59.500 --> 01:57:00.500
Yeah. No.

1491
01:57:00.500 --> 01:57:05.500
Or it's like some like mystical force that's kind of like a white light.

1492
01:57:05.500 --> 01:57:18.500
Right. No, I think, I mean, those are attempts probably and adequately to express aspects of how we would visually communicate who God is.

1493
01:57:18.500 --> 01:57:26.500
I think that probably misses the mark more than it actually gets at what, you know, what and who God is.

1494
01:57:26.500 --> 01:57:37.500
I don't know if there's a proper way that could give a physical attribution and description of God other than Jesus, who is God incarnate.

1495
01:57:37.500 --> 01:57:46.500
Right. Could you think of a more powerful, a more amazing example of a God than one who actually enters into his creation?

1496
01:57:46.500 --> 01:57:47.500
I don't know.

1497
01:57:47.500 --> 01:57:49.500
My fiancee says that God is love.

1498
01:57:49.500 --> 01:57:50.500
Yeah.

1499
01:57:50.500 --> 01:57:51.500
She says that a lot.

1500
01:57:51.500 --> 01:57:52.500
My fiancee tends to be right as well.

1501
01:57:52.500 --> 01:57:53.500
Nice.

1502
01:57:53.500 --> 01:58:01.500
So I tend to, in the first time she says something that I don't believe, I tend to assume it's not true for a while, but then it tends to be proven to be true within a year.

1503
01:58:01.500 --> 01:58:03.500
So when she said to me that God is love, I really thought deeply about it.

1504
01:58:03.500 --> 01:58:04.500
I thought, maybe she's right.

1505
01:58:04.500 --> 01:58:06.500
Maybe love is God.

1506
01:58:06.500 --> 01:58:07.500
I mean, that's from the Bible.

1507
01:58:07.500 --> 01:58:08.500
God is love.

1508
01:58:08.500 --> 01:58:19.500
The thing grammatically that's interesting about that when John writes that in his epistle is grammatically in the Greek, it's phrased in a way that God is love, but love is not God.

1509
01:58:19.500 --> 01:58:20.500
Right.

1510
01:58:20.500 --> 01:58:25.500
So you can't deify what love is.

1511
01:58:25.500 --> 01:58:30.500
When you love your fiancee, that isn't God.

1512
01:58:30.500 --> 01:58:36.500
That's an inefficient description of what we know God to be.

1513
01:58:36.500 --> 01:58:39.500
So God is love, but love is not God.

1514
01:58:39.500 --> 01:58:54.500
And in that sense, going back to what I was saying, said a few times now, you know, what the Bible is saying when says God is love is that that is the ultimate character of who God is in that love is this highest value.

1515
01:58:54.500 --> 01:59:02.500
It is that which we, you know, hold as the example ethic of what we want.

1516
01:59:02.500 --> 01:59:04.500
We want to be loved, right?

1517
01:59:04.500 --> 01:59:13.500
To be loved and not known is very insufficient.

1518
01:59:13.500 --> 01:59:18.500
And to be known, but not loved is what we all fear.

1519
01:59:18.500 --> 01:59:24.500
But I think what we find in the Bible is a God who both loves and knows us.

1520
01:59:24.500 --> 01:59:34.500
And I think that's where the God who is love, who creates us and calls us to love him with all of our soul, all of our mind, all of our strength.

1521
01:59:34.500 --> 01:59:40.500
That properly kind of fulfills what I think we mean when we say God is love.

1522
01:59:40.500 --> 01:59:59.500
There is a deep crisis of meaning in the world, especially in the Western world, three in five American adults between 18 and 25 years old said that their life lacked meaning and purpose with 50% of the same group saying their poor mental health was linked to not knowing what to do with my life.

1523
01:59:59.500 --> 02:00:06.500
And a lack of purpose is significantly associated with many of the mental health illnesses like depression and anxiety.

1524
02:00:06.500 --> 02:00:19.500
And as of April 2025, the overall prevalence of depression in US teenagers and adults has increased by 60% over the last decade according to the CDC and tragically globally more than almost a million people died due to suicide every year.

1525
02:00:19.500 --> 02:00:26.500
And it's the third leading cause of death among 15 to 29 year olds according to the World Health Organization.

1526
02:00:27.500 --> 02:00:39.500
What are we getting wrong? I think we're looking for a purpose in our meaning and things that are ultimately not going to give the value that those things actually require.

1527
02:00:39.500 --> 02:00:51.500
So it's not a matter of if we worship, it's a matter of what we worship and worship, if worship is, you know, giving our all to something.

1528
02:00:51.500 --> 02:01:08.500
I think there's a lot of things within society that are going to tell us that our identity is going to be fulfilled in money or it's going to be fulfilled in relationships or accolades or all of these aspects.

1529
02:01:08.500 --> 02:01:17.500
Or ultimately going to fall short in giving us actual purpose and meaning. And if they're not grounded in actually giving us value, right?

1530
02:01:17.500 --> 02:01:23.500
Your friend is as far as understands a good example of that, right? You know, we can achieve all of these things.

1531
02:01:23.500 --> 02:01:38.500
You hear athletes and actors and a famous people talk about all the wealth, all the like celebrity status they could possibly desire and could be completely empty, be completely fulfilled lists.

1532
02:01:38.500 --> 02:01:59.500
And I think that's because we're chasing after things that aren't going to give us what we actually need, right? They're facsimiles and cheap reproductions of what actually can give us meaning and purpose.

1533
02:01:59.500 --> 02:02:11.500
And that's because we are created to be in relationship with our God. And that is where we will find our true identity. That's what's going to give us the motivation to actually get up in the morning, like your friend, you saying, you know, you couldn't get up in the morning.

1534
02:02:11.500 --> 02:02:27.500
He finds not just a motivational value in the Christian faith. He finds actually meaning and purpose in the Christian faith that getting up in the morning has a purpose that goes beyond the here and now.

1535
02:02:27.500 --> 02:02:49.500
And they can affect all of the people around him and now he can pursue his entrepreneurial activities or his relationships or even his finances for the glory of God and then that gives it an ontological meaning that goes beyond the simple basics of kind of what secular materialism has to offer.

1536
02:02:49.500 --> 02:02:59.500
Young men in particular struggling in their own unique ways. And is is that in part in your view because they are worshipping the wrong role models in life?

1537
02:02:59.500 --> 02:03:05.500
I think it could be. I think men often find we find our identity in the things that we do, right?

1538
02:03:05.500 --> 02:03:18.500
Well, we hear about this in that. Unfortunately, we bought the lie that we are the sum of our actions. This is why people lose their jobs when they get let go of their careers. They have identity crises.

1539
02:03:18.500 --> 02:03:28.500
Because if we believe that we are the sum of our actions, we can put a lot of stock in something that is ultimately going to lead us like empty.

1540
02:03:28.500 --> 02:03:39.500
Same thing with relationships right to watch any romcom what is it almost always about lonely guy lonely girl they meet each other if all in love.

1541
02:03:39.500 --> 02:03:49.500
At the end, everything works out and now now their identity is fulfilled well, I mean all you have to do is to get married to know that that's not going to fulfill every desire and need you have.

1542
02:03:49.500 --> 02:03:59.500
I love my wife. I love my marriage. It's one of the best things that I've ever done. But if I put all of my eggs in that basket.

1543
02:03:59.500 --> 02:04:03.500
It could very well and almost certainly will lead me.

1544
02:04:03.500 --> 02:04:09.500
A stray especially if that falls apart especially when there are times of hardship and struggle.

1545
02:04:09.500 --> 02:04:24.500
So I think you are more than the sum of your actions because you have value that goes beyond that and it's actually living out that value that can give you the meaning of the purpose that you're finding but men in particular we find value in what we do.

1546
02:04:24.500 --> 02:04:35.500
I think women although I don't want to speak you know too broadly I think speaking generalities women find a lot of identity in relational values.

1547
02:04:35.500 --> 02:04:42.500
In the relationships that they have with their friends or their significant others man often find.

1548
02:04:43.500 --> 02:04:48.500
Value in like what they're able to contribute to physically.

1549
02:04:48.500 --> 02:05:07.500
And so especially in a world where you know economic crisis is the thing or work complications with things like technology removing a lot of occupations I think that can be a genuine hardship.

1550
02:05:07.500 --> 02:05:17.500
Yeah I was just looking at the some research on pub men it says exactly that says in a recent qualitative analysis in the United States of suicide notes majority male sample.

1551
02:05:17.500 --> 02:05:24.500
The authors identified themes that differed by gender such as men more often referring to financial hardship etc.

1552
02:05:24.500 --> 02:05:34.500
Which can imply feelings of failure and worthlessness tied to traditional roles in contrast women's notes were more about lowered self worth and interpersonal relationships.

1553
02:05:34.500 --> 02:05:48.500
So if that does hold and we're implying that sometimes it's to do with a feeling of worthlessness for men are you saying that Christianity can provide something that is an antidote to that feeling.

1554
02:05:48.500 --> 02:05:56.500
I think not only can it provide an antidote it can provide the antidote what would you say to anyone that's listening right now that feels a little bit lost in their life.

1555
02:05:56.500 --> 02:06:09.500
I would say that you have purpose and you have meaning more than what society tells you is going to give you that meaning and purpose.

1556
02:06:09.500 --> 02:06:28.500
And that there's a God who loves you and he loves you so much that he stepped out of eternity and into humanity and he lived the perfect life that you couldn't in order to establish and create the union of the relationship with God that you're actually seeking.

1557
02:06:28.500 --> 02:06:32.500
And what would you tell them step one would be to go in that direction.

1558
02:06:32.500 --> 02:06:39.500
Well, I would say push into something like read the Bible.

1559
02:06:39.500 --> 02:06:50.500
I would say open the gospel of Matthew, open the gospel of John and start reading and find out who this Jesus guy is.

1560
02:06:50.500 --> 02:07:02.500
Investigate that question why that is significant why that matters because the person and character of Jesus goes beyond simply and historical character.

1561
02:07:02.500 --> 02:07:12.500
I think Jesus was a genuine historical character he's no less than that but he's also so much more than that and in discovering who he is in relation to who you are that's going to change your life.

1562
02:07:12.500 --> 02:07:27.500
Are you noticing that people are asking you certain questions about Christianity or religion or any of the adjacent subjects more now than they were 10 years ago like other certain themes or topics that are more front of mind for people these days.

1563
02:07:27.500 --> 02:07:38.500
Yeah, I think we've we've gone through a shift where when I kind of started in this endeavor of what I'm doing now there's kind of crescendo in the last year and a bit.

1564
02:07:38.500 --> 02:07:51.500
When I started out I think people are asking a lot more is God real and is this true and I think now people are asking is God good and I think it's because it's part and parcel of this meeting crisis thing.

1565
02:07:51.500 --> 02:08:01.500
I also think that there have been some major moral issues I mean the whole Epstein thing right now I think is a testament to that we are seeing examples of true evil and I think that bothers people.

1566
02:08:01.500 --> 02:08:12.500
And in a world where we can rationalize subjectivizing evil we understand that is heinous and if that is evil with the capital E.

1567
02:08:12.500 --> 02:08:27.500
Where's the G the good with the capital G C. S. Lewis of code a few times he said in his problem of pain and suffering in that book that you wrote that one of his objections to God was that there was.

1568
02:08:27.500 --> 02:08:43.500
There's so much evil in chaos in this world he said but what was I comparing that to a man does not call a line crooked must he knows what straight line looks like right the reason you understand that there's rot is because you understand what something that's healthy is.

1569
02:08:43.500 --> 02:08:59.500
And so there's an objective standard that needs to be weighed by these things and I think more than ever we're seeing things that really speak to.

1570
02:08:59.500 --> 02:09:19.500
The justice questions in terms of the meaning questions and that has really interested me as someone who is an I'm a historian right so I'm interested in the questions about I do things like read Greek and Coptic most of the time right but I've been challenged to think more about.

1571
02:09:19.500 --> 02:09:37.500
The philosophical questions because I think we live in an age where I'm really encouraged by people looking at injustice there's a lump in our throat and I think there's a lump in our throat because Jesus put it there I think I'm a is going to have a big impact on your work yeah and in ways that might not be super obvious I think one of the ways is that.

1572
02:09:37.500 --> 02:10:02.500
If all the CEOs are true when they say that AI is going to cause massive job displacement and even the CEOs that are building the technology have sat here and told me that there's going to be massive job displacement there's going to be a crisis of meaning people get huge amount of work from the things that they do in their lives and then not going to be able to do those things in the same way necessarily and about 60% of Americans say they're worried that AI will take away the thing that gives them their meaning.

1573
02:10:02.500 --> 02:10:23.500
Well, I think we just did the footsteps of the me crisis of meaning in this regard yeah and that's going to mean that a lot of people you know are going to struggle a lot that concerns me I mean I think that's what I'm more worried about AI I'm not worried about AI taking over the world I'm not worried about you know AI replacing us or something like that.

1574
02:10:23.500 --> 02:10:52.500
If I'm worried about AI it's that it's the pain and suffering that it can cause for people who have bought into the lie that this some of their identity is in what they can contribute and do and how the Christian worldview speaks into that how can I think Christianly about a society where there could very well be mass identity crises because of unemployment or because you know the ears are going to be a lot of work.

1575
02:10:53.500 --> 02:11:12.500
So we're telling truck drivers learn to code well now coders are being replaced by AI systems right AI can code better than the coders so Spotify said yesterday that none of their engineers have written a line of code since December I thought wow fucking out like that yeah and my car drives itself here in America.

1576
02:11:12.500 --> 02:11:23.500
I sat here with the other day with the CEO of Uber and he said to me they have nine million drivers careers and within X number of years they will have none.

1577
02:11:23.500 --> 02:11:38.500
He said the unique thing is the speed of the change is going to cause the problems because we had the industrial revolution we had time to you know transfer to other lines of employment etc but the speed in which there's going to be displacement is is going to cause the issues.

1578
02:11:38.500 --> 02:11:49.500
And I wonder what's going to happen I mean a lot of people are you know they're going to be in search of meaning and I guess that I will push some people towards Christianity and other religions but not everybody because you said you know as you say.

1579
02:11:49.500 --> 02:11:53.500
When our identities are pulled away from us in such a way.

1580
02:11:53.500 --> 02:11:58.500
Some people turn to the bottle right or you know causes mental health situation so.

1581
02:11:58.500 --> 02:12:16.500
I mean humanity has a very unique act to pivot and figure things out now is there going to be you know a a loop period in between when that job crisis happens maybe.

1582
02:12:16.500 --> 02:12:28.500
But I think I think humanity will figure things out I just I just don't know if that will be before all of you know it hits the fan.

1583
02:12:28.500 --> 02:12:56.500
What was the first domino that fell for you that made you go on this this journey of becoming is it the time Christian apologist yeah becoming it what does that even mean Christian apologist so I mentioned for speed of three 15 right but in your hearts your very crisis Lord always be prepared to give an answer so that is that apologia so we take the Greek word apologia and we stick in English suffix on the end and we have this field the study the discipline apologetics.

1584
02:12:56.500 --> 02:13:16.500
That mean you're explaining the Bible giving reasons yeah giving answers so apologetics is as complicated as arguments philosophically and scientifically for the existence of God and the historical reliability of the Bible and is simple as if someone asked me why Jesus that's an apologetic question in so far as it's giving an answer.

1585
02:13:16.500 --> 02:13:21.500
I was looking at some of these photos of you as a young man I wondered how much.

1586
02:13:21.500 --> 02:13:32.500
The situation in these photos had an impact on who you came to be in what you came to believe I'll put these photos on the screen for anybody yeah but I'm this is a.

1587
02:13:32.500 --> 02:13:38.500
A young boy in a wheelchair yep and in a hospital bed that looks to be paralyzed yep.

1588
02:13:38.500 --> 02:13:45.500
Yeah when I was 11 years old I was diagnosed with a rare neurological condition that left me paralyzed from the waist down.

1589
02:13:45.500 --> 02:14:05.500
So you at 10 you were fine you were normal yeah and 11 suddenly you were paralyzed from the waist down yes so I had the flu and my body is immune system instead of attacking the flu attack the nerve endings at the base my spinal cord so the myelin sheath and cause inflammation cutting off the communication for my brain to my legs and a lot of people that get that disease never walk again.

1590
02:14:05.500 --> 02:14:25.500
It's complicated so the so it's called acute transverse myelitis although I've been told recently that there's a change in the name of the diagnosis but essentially transverse myelitis is not all that rare but acute that acute in terms of the like quickness of it.

1591
02:14:25.500 --> 02:14:54.500
I had fallen asleep a nap for probably no more than 30 minutes and when I woke up I was paralyzed so it was the quickness of the actual damage that was done to my spinal cord that was the catalyst for in the diagnosis saying that the chances of me walking again were very low but within a month you were walking again yeah one month to the day so in fact the anniversary 23 anniversary was recently because it was in February 8th.

1592
02:14:54.500 --> 02:14:59.500
I woke up on a Saturday morning got at the bed and walked over to my wheelchair.

1593
02:14:59.500 --> 02:15:03.500
Did this change your perspective on God Christianity religion?

1594
02:15:03.500 --> 02:15:07.500
It did in some ways I mean I don't I don't know how it couldn't.

1595
02:15:07.500 --> 02:15:20.500
It definitely to have medical professionals tell me you're probably going to be a paraprolegial for the rest of your life like this is what you need to kind of accept and get used to to the exact same medical professionals.

1596
02:15:20.500 --> 02:15:38.500
You know the pediatric neurologists saying we don't know why you're walking that had to have an impact on me in that I think I I truly believe I was healed in that it was the doctors who used the word miracle.

1597
02:15:38.500 --> 02:15:47.500
Because they said that they they couldn't medically explain why there was no more damage on my spinal cord why I was walking with.

1598
02:15:47.500 --> 02:16:01.500
Like not even any like attribute or anything however I still needed to figure some of the more intellectual questions out of my head when I was a teenager so it wasn't just that this happened and explained a lot.

1599
02:16:01.500 --> 02:16:13.500
Because I was open to the possibility of this being a fluke of there being a completely randomness to this and so when I was a teenager I investigated a lot.

1600
02:16:13.500 --> 02:16:22.500
You know to the best of my ability as a 17 year old in trying to answer some of the more meaning questions about I know my parents raised me to believe.

1601
02:16:22.500 --> 02:16:27.500
But if I believe it simply because they told me to it's not the worst.

1602
02:16:27.500 --> 02:16:41.500
Reason but it's also not the best reason so that's is the first time that I read the Quran covered a cover I was looking into things like the book of Mormon and the book of a guitar I was just curious that's when you know reading Richard Dawkins Sam Harris.

1603
02:16:42.500 --> 02:16:47.500
Not in any type of crisis faith crisis way but I was I was investigating.

1604
02:16:47.500 --> 02:16:49.500
So you believe in the supernatural.

1605
02:16:49.500 --> 02:16:52.500
Do you believe that we can speak to the dead?

1606
02:16:52.500 --> 02:16:53.500
No.

1607
02:16:53.500 --> 02:16:54.500
You don't believe that.

1608
02:16:54.500 --> 02:16:58.500
No. So when people I should I should perhaps that it depends what you mean by speaking to the dead.

1609
02:16:58.500 --> 02:17:03.500
I think it's I think it's possible we have examples of it in the Bible.

1610
02:17:04.500 --> 02:17:11.500
Saul gets a medium to call up the spirit of Samuel.

1611
02:17:11.500 --> 02:17:15.500
So do you believe mediums are telling the truth when they say that they're contacting people in the afterlife.

1612
02:17:15.500 --> 02:17:20.500
I think that there's a possibility of engaging the supernatural world which is dangerous.

1613
02:17:21.500 --> 02:17:34.500
And I think there's a very fuzzy line between mediums who are con artists and people who are actually engaged in something that is stabling in the supernatural.

1614
02:17:34.500 --> 02:17:41.500
I say this in part because I've heard people say that the partner is passed away and then they've seen signs.

1615
02:17:41.500 --> 02:17:43.500
Their partner has left them signs.

1616
02:17:43.500 --> 02:17:46.500
Do you believe in this kind of thing?

1617
02:17:46.500 --> 02:17:47.500
I don't think so.

1618
02:17:47.500 --> 02:17:48.500
Not in those ways.

1619
02:17:48.500 --> 02:17:51.500
I think when people are dead, they're dead.

1620
02:17:51.500 --> 02:17:58.500
But I think they're aspects of the supernatural world and a world that's going on behind the scenes.

1621
02:17:58.500 --> 02:18:15.500
There's articulated within scripture that have an impact on this world in a way that if people can be distracted and misled to think that they are contacting dead relatives, then that is otherwise going to prevent them from being dead.

1622
02:18:15.500 --> 02:18:19.500
They should prevent them from pursuing what they should be as image bears of God.

1623
02:18:19.500 --> 02:18:22.500
So you think it's demonic in some kind of thing?

1624
02:18:22.500 --> 02:18:23.500
I think it can be.

1625
02:18:23.500 --> 02:18:24.500
I think it's always.

1626
02:18:24.500 --> 02:18:31.500
I think in emotionally vulnerable states, we are willing to adhere to all sorts of things.

1627
02:18:31.500 --> 02:18:38.500
And there's a sensitivity that I want to communicate around that.

1628
02:18:38.500 --> 02:18:54.500
Because I think people, especially in the periods of the deaths of loved ones, often want to, look for validation in their past away loved ones, leaving something or communicating or...

1629
02:18:54.500 --> 02:19:00.500
And also that we want to believe when we lose people we love that they are somewhere better, that they are in a good place.

1630
02:19:00.500 --> 02:19:21.500
And this is one of the things that I struggled with earlier when we were talking about hell, which is if such a small percentage of people are making it to hell by whatever measure of acceptance, one believes, then that would mean that like my grandmother who wasn't necessarily a devout religious person or a Christian or hadn't repented is currently in hell.

1631
02:19:21.500 --> 02:19:27.500
And that's a hard thought to take that she is in such a awful place now.

1632
02:19:28.500 --> 02:19:40.500
And this would obviously make people not want to experience that dissonance and therefore reject religion and say, well, no, if I accept the Bible, then I have to accept my grandmother is currently burning in hell.

1633
02:19:40.500 --> 02:19:45.500
And so I'm going to reject the Bible as much easier than accepting that my grandmother is suffering right now.

1634
02:19:45.500 --> 02:19:46.500
Right.

1635
02:19:46.500 --> 02:19:53.500
I mean, ultimately that say, I, I wouldn't do it that way. Therefore, it's not true.

1636
02:19:53.500 --> 02:19:54.500
So what do you mean?

1637
02:19:54.500 --> 02:19:59.500
Well, I don't think that God should send my grandmother to hell.

1638
02:19:59.500 --> 02:20:00.000
Yeah.

1639
02:20:00.000 --> 02:20:05.500
Therefore, I'm going to conclude that it's not true based on that type of...

1640
02:20:05.500 --> 02:20:13.500
Now, at the end of the day, does God communicate with people in ways that go beyond my understanding?

1641
02:20:13.500 --> 02:20:20.500
I've talked to enough Muslims in the Muslim world who've had dreams about Jesus to know that something goes on.

1642
02:20:20.500 --> 02:20:27.500
Like, I don't understand sometimes what, what happens on the deathbed between an individual and their maker.

1643
02:20:27.500 --> 02:20:35.500
So it's not my place to say that they are burning in hell or whatever, you know, descriptive language you want to use because it's between them and God.

1644
02:20:35.500 --> 02:20:41.500
At the exact same time, apart from the saving work of Christ, I'm going to hell.

1645
02:20:41.500 --> 02:20:49.500
So, and I genuinely believe that is that apart from the in breaking of God into my life, in part and parcel of by things like this,

1646
02:20:49.500 --> 02:21:05.500
but also by like showing me and allowing me to investigate these things and wrestle through questions and putting people in places in my life that have formed me and shaped me and allowed me to look at the evidence and have conversations and be honest and transparent.

1647
02:21:05.500 --> 02:21:12.500
And those are the things that have led me down a road to say, you know, I'm convinced. I'm convinced that this is true.

1648
02:21:12.500 --> 02:21:26.500
Experientially, that it is intellectually robust and that it is experientially profound for me and for so many other people, your friend included.

1649
02:21:26.500 --> 02:21:32.500
What's the most important thing that we haven't talked about that we should have talked about Wesley for the people that are listening?

1650
02:21:32.500 --> 02:21:40.500
I would assume they're very curious people, some of them are religious, some of them aren't. What is the most important thing that we should close on in your view?

1651
02:21:40.500 --> 02:21:50.500
Part of my academic study is that I do what's called paparology and paleography. So, I make facsimiles of manuscripts, ancient manuscripts, particularly biblical manuscripts.

1652
02:21:50.500 --> 02:22:01.500
So, this is a biblical manuscript, right? P-46. It's a late second or third century page from a collection of Paul's epistles.

1653
02:22:01.500 --> 02:22:05.500
So, Paul from the Bible. Paul from the Bible. He wrote this.

1654
02:22:05.500 --> 02:22:12.500
Well, so he wrote that and then a scribe in the second century copied it down. So, this is, I made this. So, this is genuine interest from papyrus.

1655
02:22:12.500 --> 02:22:16.500
I'm only running one side, so you could see kind of how the papyrus is put together.

1656
02:22:16.500 --> 02:22:25.500
And then I got you a nice Bible. But, I have put a bookmark in the page where that passage is.

1657
02:22:25.500 --> 02:22:33.500
Why did you pick that particular passage? Well, why don't you open it up and read it. So, it's on the little inscription note that I have there.

1658
02:22:33.500 --> 02:22:39.500
Romans 12. So, you can see on the bottom there, there's the title.

1659
02:22:40.500 --> 02:22:52.500
So, it says, rejoice in hope. Be patient in tribulation. Be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.

1660
02:22:52.500 --> 02:23:00.500
Bless those who persecute you. Bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice. Weep with those who weep.

1661
02:23:00.500 --> 02:23:07.500
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty. But associate with the lowly.

1662
02:23:07.500 --> 02:23:16.500
Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil. But give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.

1663
02:23:16.500 --> 02:23:25.500
If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peacefully with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves.

1664
02:23:25.500 --> 02:23:37.500
But leave it to the wrath of God for it is written. Vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the Lord, to the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him.

1665
02:23:37.500 --> 02:23:48.500
If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. For by so doing, you will heap burning colds on his head. Do not be overcome by evil. But overcome evil with good.

1666
02:23:48.500 --> 02:23:55.500
So, hopefully that's a good passage to remember, think about. And then that's the box for it.

1667
02:23:55.500 --> 02:23:58.500
Thank you so much. It was so beautiful.

1668
02:23:58.500 --> 02:24:03.500
Wesley, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for.

1669
02:24:03.500 --> 02:24:10.500
And the question left for you is, what is one risk that you should be taking in your life, but aren't currently?

1670
02:24:10.500 --> 02:24:19.500
Where I am in my life, I feel like so many things have happened so quickly that there's like an aspect of unpredictability.

1671
02:24:19.500 --> 02:24:31.500
My wife and I were talking last night and it was like, we need to embrace what's happening right now, but from a year from now, if it's all gone, that's totally okay.

1672
02:24:31.500 --> 02:24:39.500
And we're fine with that, whether that's financially or with social media or opportunity.

1673
02:24:39.500 --> 02:24:46.500
And maybe the risk is pushing into that and saying, maybe there's an aspect of that.

1674
02:24:46.500 --> 02:24:57.500
Yes, I think it's wise to keep that in calibration and understand that if this goes away tomorrow, I'm content because this is beyond what I have.

1675
02:24:57.500 --> 02:25:00.500
I'm in a room sitting with Stephen Barlett.

1676
02:25:00.500 --> 02:25:02.500
I'm in a room set with you.

1677
02:25:02.500 --> 02:25:10.500
But there's an aspect of that, which is completely mind-blowing to me, especially Wes Hough from a year ago.

1678
02:25:10.500 --> 02:25:24.500
But maybe not selling myself short and thinking that these opportunities are opportunities to invest in others and ways that people have invested in me over this last year.

1679
02:25:24.500 --> 02:25:26.500
What do you mean by that?

1680
02:25:26.500 --> 02:25:42.500
With some of the things that I've been very graciously able to experience and in giving other people opportunity to maybe push into trying to make an impact in their space.

1681
02:25:42.500 --> 02:25:43.500
Oh, okay.

1682
02:25:43.500 --> 02:25:44.500
Encouraging them.

1683
02:25:44.500 --> 02:25:45.500
Pulling people up the ladder.

1684
02:25:45.500 --> 02:25:46.500
Yeah.

1685
02:25:46.500 --> 02:25:47.500
You've been able to climb.

1686
02:25:47.500 --> 02:25:48.500
Yeah.

1687
02:25:48.500 --> 02:25:49.500
Pulling it down with, I guess.

1688
02:25:49.500 --> 02:25:50.500
Yeah.

1689
02:25:50.500 --> 02:25:51.500
Yeah.

1690
02:25:51.500 --> 02:25:52.500
It's so, so cool.

1691
02:25:52.500 --> 02:25:56.500
Well, I'm very thankful for you willing to have me on, so thank you.

1692
02:25:56.500 --> 02:25:57.500
No, thank you.

1693
02:25:57.500 --> 02:26:08.500
You're such a great communicator and you're so finally balanced in your ability to deeply understand everything you're talking about from a historical perspective,

1694
02:26:08.500 --> 02:26:13.500
to be in the pursuit of truth, as you kind of said, irrespective of where that might lead somebody.

1695
02:26:13.500 --> 02:26:20.500
But then you have the gift of communication, incredibly engaging person, good intentions, good man.

1696
02:26:20.500 --> 02:26:25.500
So I was very, very glad we had this conversation and very much looking forward to it for a very long time.

1697
02:26:25.500 --> 02:26:26.500
So I'm glad you said yes.

1698
02:26:26.500 --> 02:26:31.500
I was asking my team for maybe nine months to get in contact with you.

1699
02:26:31.500 --> 02:26:33.500
Well, I apologize because it had no a few times.

1700
02:26:33.500 --> 02:26:34.500
No, it's okay.

1701
02:26:34.500 --> 02:26:37.500
I'm really, really appreciative of it, Wesley, and I hope to have this conversation again sometime soon.

1702
02:26:37.500 --> 02:26:38.500
Yeah, that'd be great.

1703
02:26:38.500 --> 02:26:39.500
Thank you.

1704
02:26:39.500 --> 02:26:46.500
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1705
02:26:46.500 --> 02:26:51.500
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1706
02:26:51.500 --> 02:26:53.500
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1707
02:26:53.500 --> 02:26:54.500
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1708
02:26:54.500 --> 02:26:56.500
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