WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.840 Well, hello and welcome back to the way podcast my name is Izzy and I'm also joined by another co-host 2 00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:11.760 Zach what up what up and today we always have another special guest with us 3 00:00:13.920 --> 00:00:19.520 Round of applause so guys wow thank you and today we're going to be diving into Luke's testimony 4 00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:23.440 I'll find any initial questions before we get into the actual big questions. I have a question 5 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:28.400 Are you your last name's Thornton? It is. Are you related to the chocolate of Thornton's? 6 00:00:29.200 --> 00:00:30.400 Maybe wait really? 7 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.640 No way. I mean I don't actually know what that is but no way 8 00:00:36.080 --> 00:00:44.400 Oh, I was gonna leave you um your first name is Luke are you related to anyone from Star Wars? 9 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:49.760 Like Luke Skywalker. I can't be if you want me to be I'm not sure 10 00:00:50.480 --> 00:00:54.480 Right well there we go that's the initial question done yeah I'm not sure how to react to that to be honest but 11 00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:57.200 Hey 12 00:01:03.360 --> 00:01:07.280 Hello, I'm just interrupting the podcast to say thanks for listening and I hope you're enjoying 13 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:12.240 But we would love that if you're watching on YouTube to give us a like and a subscribe 14 00:01:12.240 --> 00:01:17.840 And if you're listening on apple or Spotify then why don't you give us a follow and then it all rating because our 15 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:23.520 Mission is to share the good news of Jesus with every young person online and you doing that really helps make that possible 16 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:25.920 But let's get back to the episode 17 00:01:26.800 --> 00:01:28.000 So Luke 18 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:30.000 You were not always a Christian way 19 00:01:30.720 --> 00:01:33.360 So a lot of your stories that you were an atheist 20 00:01:34.080 --> 00:01:36.080 Into a Christian 21 00:01:36.080 --> 00:01:41.600 But before we get into the details of that can you tell us a bit about you're up bringing what was little little loop like? 22 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:44.640 Yeah, a little loop. It's quite trippy as a baby 23 00:01:44.720 --> 00:01:48.480 So that was the very little loop. Yeah, that's that soon changed 24 00:01:48.800 --> 00:01:51.280 Yeah, so I was born into like a secular her 25 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:54.000 My parents and immediate family 26 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:59.840 You know neighborhood that kind of thing where a group was a very secular as well. So essentially no framework for 27 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:04.720 Faith or no, but it just experiences or anything that's be honest 28 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:09.280 And so that was in Yorkshire which is in England and the north of the UK 29 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:11.840 Out of England and 30 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:15.840 Yeah, that was kind of like where I was oh my god. Yeah, so when was your first 31 00:02:16.480 --> 00:02:21.680 Encounter with anything religious that when we were where their religion was a thing mm-hmm 32 00:02:22.880 --> 00:02:24.880 Yeah, well one of my 33 00:02:26.160 --> 00:02:27.920 grandparents 34 00:02:27.920 --> 00:02:32.000 Go to church like so that was there was that but it was there's no real interaction with that 35 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:34.880 That was more like by the way when you know when I was with them 36 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:40.400 And went to church in the day, so I wasn't like I was actually there with them and then some other family members 37 00:02:40.880 --> 00:02:42.880 and 38 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:48.160 You know what the like faiths and then might like they talked about it things that but we're talking like this is like great 39 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:52.320 Um, in not many interactions to be honest. This is over the pit span of you know 40 00:02:52.720 --> 00:02:56.480 Which until until I was a teenage kind of thing so very few generally speaking it was like just 41 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:00.640 You know believe what you want to believe really parents went particularly um 42 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:06.880 Pressuring me and I got to believe this I'll believe that they shared what they believed enough other than that 43 00:03:06.880 --> 00:03:08.880 It was yeah doing a do against 44 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:11.200 When they didn't believe in any like 45 00:03:12.480 --> 00:03:13.680 higher 46 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:20.640 Situation no, no, no, no, no, they just question now. I think uh you know the more like oh not really they're not more like agnosticism 47 00:03:20.720 --> 00:03:22.720 So like not too sure um 48 00:03:23.040 --> 00:03:25.040 Maybe there is but I just want to live a good life 49 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:30.400 So it wasn't really yeah, I believe in this creator or anything like that 50 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:35.680 Yeah, oh there wasn't like new age it was just more nothing really to be honest 51 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:40.960 And then from chat and before you were definitely curious about the topic of 52 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:42.560 Yeah 53 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:45.600 So when when did that come about when did you realize that you were curious about 54 00:03:46.640 --> 00:03:48.640 debating and all that good stuff? 55 00:03:49.200 --> 00:03:52.800 Yeah, yeah, so essentially um I think it was more activated in school 56 00:03:52.880 --> 00:03:55.360 So like with my book coming um you're like a teenager 57 00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:02.000 Elitines I'm going to secondary school and um in classes like religious studies and when you know friends are talking about 58 00:04:02.640 --> 00:04:08.080 What they believe, I guess and uh that was when I was really starting to engage with these ideas um 59 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:11.680 Yeah, if we obviously people start to claim things right like I believe in this 60 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:13.920 I don't believe in that. I then suddenly oh well 61 00:04:14.640 --> 00:04:20.080 These like competing narratives or stories and then which one am I and I didn't really know somewhere about this 62 00:04:20.080 --> 00:04:27.680 What all that um, so yeah, then it was more than time to engage with those ideas and those people's beliefs and lives and seeing how 63 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:32.400 the interact with that as well so um yeah because everyone's ultimately trying to claim something 64 00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:38.480 I guess and then I was like not too sure but which one do I believe and uh so very curious about 65 00:04:39.440 --> 00:04:43.120 What what that meant for them and then obviously what that meant for me as well 66 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:45.760 How did you go about like 67 00:04:45.760 --> 00:04:47.600 being curious about it? 68 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:50.560 Yeah, so it was a lot of questions as talking to people 69 00:04:51.840 --> 00:04:56.080 Why do you believe this if you believe if you're Christian for example um 70 00:04:56.880 --> 00:05:00.560 I believe I got created the universe then do you read the bible do you go to church 71 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:04.400 and all these kind of questions and if somebody was like um 72 00:05:04.400 --> 00:05:06.400 I'm a Christian but then they do do those things 73 00:05:06.400 --> 00:05:11.040 I was like oh right, why is that if you go to this literally create the entire universe then 74 00:05:12.080 --> 00:05:13.440 Why do you not 75 00:05:13.440 --> 00:05:17.600 They read the book kind of thing. So it was always something which I really like um 76 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:20.880 I just struggled with I guess like why you believe this but then you do believe that 77 00:05:21.440 --> 00:05:25.280 And then if for example someone was like oh yeah my Christian on the census kind of thing 78 00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:29.920 But not image or life then I was like well, why do you say that sort of me it was like if I'm 79 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:32.640 Christian, I want to be Christian off many of this 80 00:05:32.640 --> 00:05:34.640 I want to live like an atheist kind of thing 81 00:05:34.640 --> 00:05:38.320 So I was trying to be like congruent and um yeah, learning 82 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:43.600 All lives with what we still believe I guess um, but yeah, they even in 83 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:49.440 Like school for example uh in like re my teacher 84 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:54.800 My reteacher was uh priest as well so on the weekend it was in the church and then in 85 00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:01.040 Classroom he was talking about different faiths obviously you could speak with authority about Christianity 86 00:06:01.200 --> 00:06:01.840 I think it was great 87 00:06:01.840 --> 00:06:06.880 So he was well of lots of like back and forth interesting and then stay after glass a lot of time to like you know chat with him 88 00:06:06.880 --> 00:06:09.680 It is so interesting so looking back as a christian 89 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:11.120 um 90 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:11.600 Spoilers 91 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:12.560 Yeah, yeah 92 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:14.560 Spoiler proplar um 93 00:06:14.880 --> 00:06:20.320 He was um yeah, he that was his kind of like ministry, I guess and that was the way he was witnessing to these young people 94 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:23.600 And um so yeah for him he's the character that you like 95 00:06:24.400 --> 00:06:30.160 Get about and you know it was was brilliant and um, but yeah, so I was always I was going to be really well with him 96 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:35.200 Even though disagree with him right strongly obviously as an atheist have about about that 97 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:37.680 Um, it was a more like to be honest 98 00:06:37.840 --> 00:06:42.480 I said widely believe this and then what the answers he was giving were necessarily like going in 99 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:48.320 And I wasn't really accepting them. So there's something else interesting. I was trying to like search for I guess or it's hard 100 00:06:48.320 --> 00:06:52.880 So look you know it's hard to know what where exactly it was at but um that's kind of the gist of it I guess 101 00:06:53.760 --> 00:06:55.760 What was like the 102 00:06:56.080 --> 00:07:02.480 The main thing as you're an atheist talking to christians that you were like catching them out on was it that 103 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:04.800 inconsistency of 104 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:09.440 Of like claiming to believe but not doing anything about it or were there any other things 105 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:14.400 Where you were like oh when I'm when I'm trying to a christian they I don't know 106 00:07:14.640 --> 00:07:20.960 They never know how to answer this question and I can just catch them out so easily and kind of like disprove them 107 00:07:21.840 --> 00:07:23.680 Yeah, it was it was more about the 108 00:07:24.960 --> 00:07:30.880 Yeah, is there a life aligned with what they believe or what the religion claims to believe kind of thing 109 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:35.040 So yeah, if they were like saying this and then doing that like what like 110 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:39.520 The god of the universe is looking at you all like seeing you in this and then you're doing this 111 00:07:40.080 --> 00:07:44.160 And that used to really confuse but especially when it was big things um, yeah, I used to really like 112 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:50.080 That's so it wasn't really like yeah, it's really like probe with that but why this why I really believe this and why I do in that 113 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:53.520 I once yeah, I once read a quote that was um 114 00:07:54.880 --> 00:07:58.880 By a a prominent I think it was a Hindu author 115 00:07:59.840 --> 00:08:04.880 That was quoted in this book that I was reading where he said that every Hindu in the world would be a Christian 116 00:08:05.520 --> 00:08:08.160 If Christians lived as Jesus lived 117 00:08:09.280 --> 00:08:11.280 Because they actually find it quite compelling 118 00:08:11.520 --> 00:08:15.520 But they just don't see the fruit of it in Christianity and in the church 119 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.240 Which I thought was really interesting 120 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:23.120 And and now hearing that that was one of the biggest things that you saw as and 121 00:08:23.760 --> 00:08:24.800 um 122 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:27.200 As was like in congruent in the Christian life 123 00:08:27.840 --> 00:08:33.040 I can't even think if we if we actually just lived what we believed or claimed to believe 124 00:08:33.040 --> 00:08:35.040 Do it might make a whole world of a difference 125 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:36.960 Play 126 00:08:37.760 --> 00:08:42.400 Probably yeah, yeah big time and then to answer that as well like you know in terms of my 127 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:52.000 Internal inside of a mind kind of thing. I was always thinking like can't see God where's right got real then why can't I see God in terms of like physically in the world 128 00:08:52.640 --> 00:08:54.800 Um, and then some things just like you know like 129 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:59.520 People like atheists at the time and the scientist kind of thing we're claiming 130 00:08:59.680 --> 00:09:04.480 We don't know how the universe began and the world so now I was like putting it on that as I will if we don't know then 131 00:09:04.800 --> 00:09:07.360 And I'm taking their word for it. I guess and then 132 00:09:07.920 --> 00:09:09.920 How can these people who are claiming to know? 133 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:14.480 Right that's how how do they know then so it was always like I was kind of claiming 134 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:19.440 You know pinning some things on that as well like uncertainty around that and um 135 00:09:20.160 --> 00:09:24.000 Yeah, I think particularly when you've not got any like literally literally bring it to zero 136 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:28.400 Um good christian witnesses in your life, right. It's just such an alien concept 137 00:09:28.400 --> 00:09:31.200 Yeah, I mean, you know when I speak to people now who are you know 138 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:36.400 Christians and they've been in the local Christian parents and all this kind of things like that's not my experience 139 00:09:36.400 --> 00:09:41.520 What's what literally literally zero? I mean people I interact with the christian to like you know 70 plus 140 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:48.000 And it was like that was pretty much it very relatable. Yeah, literally at all and I was a boy going to later that 141 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:53.040 Once does that find people who were christians living like that kind of helps to 142 00:09:54.880 --> 00:09:57.680 And then for you like in your heart, I guess like how 143 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.320 How did you view the world like were you content of like not 144 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:06.080 No, and if there's a higher power or whatever or where you 145 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:10.480 Do you feel like you're missing something or did you feel like I don't need this like how 146 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:12.640 How were you? 147 00:10:12.640 --> 00:10:14.640 Yeah, interesting 148 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:19.360 So I think 149 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:22.480 It was like it was really like love life. I think life's great 150 00:10:22.880 --> 00:10:26.880 You know, I'm just going back you know thinking where I was at the time what love life a lot. I can have a 151 00:10:27.520 --> 00:10:33.200 Girl life this way and be like grateful or go the other way and like just be like questioning all this sort of kind of thing 152 00:10:33.760 --> 00:10:40.080 Um, and yeah, for me, I kind of chose that I've always been into um personal development and that kind of thing 153 00:10:40.640 --> 00:10:41.440 um, so 154 00:10:41.760 --> 00:10:47.360 And yes, so when you hear my optimism and how that can help or say oh, why not then I might as well adopt one of these 155 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:53.200 Like strategies of you know thought process. I guess I thought well this sounds might as well go this journey ends up being better 156 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:56.720 I guess um, so yeah, I kind of saw that the world in as 157 00:10:57.280 --> 00:11:00.400 A good way as a can I guess I could at the time. However 158 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.200 After we're going to reflect on some things like in if I'm an atheist then 159 00:11:06.400 --> 00:11:11.280 Do I have free will is that even on the on the table right? I don't I'm not ready to show off 160 00:11:11.280 --> 00:11:15.040 I'm been honest at the time. I was like well if the universe is just all material 161 00:11:15.520 --> 00:11:19.760 And then the reason I'm here is because of a prior event and that events here for when prior event to that 162 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:23.760 And so on and so on then it's all determined and that was kind of like oh man. This 163 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:25.760 That's not good 164 00:11:25.760 --> 00:11:30.080 I don't really like that even the feelers have got free will and that really seems pretty clear 165 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:31.920 but if um 166 00:11:31.920 --> 00:11:37.760 Related to the science so to speak then that was really challenging for me and then like morality as well 167 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:45.440 Can that be real if there's no external law so I like that's and that was really challenging actually because like well no matter what I do 168 00:11:45.920 --> 00:11:50.080 Um, you know, I can believe or think that something is 169 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:56.880 Good or bad, but is it actually just my opinion and who's to say this is right this is wrong and all that kind of thing 170 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:02.560 Um, so I always wanted to be like yeah a line of be congruent I guess like is up for um 171 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:06.160 So yeah, that was that was quite a big thing and then I kind of thought well 172 00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:08.560 If there's no like purpose as well 173 00:12:09.040 --> 00:12:11.040 Then no matter what I do 174 00:12:11.040 --> 00:12:13.520 Bit live a good life or not's good life 175 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:16.320 In the end it doesn't really matter 176 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:18.720 I never remember thinking I'm but there's one point I was in them 177 00:12:18.800 --> 00:12:24.880 Was in the kitchen of a house where you used to live and I remember this it's really this all this just like hitting me really hard 178 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:26.960 And I was like man, this is 179 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:31.040 Wild I think this is true then what's the point 180 00:12:31.920 --> 00:12:37.600 And yeah, I've for for a moment that really struck me to be honest and that then 181 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:43.200 But went on for a little while and I don't think you can like live in that space very long 182 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:47.040 It was more like an intellectual realization and then the commercial one was well to be honest 183 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:52.960 And uh, but then he added to go with my I forget some of scary on but yeah, it was definitely a big thing 184 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:57.120 Um, I'm not sure if that's the question, but I'm trying to bring up on one. I don't know 185 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:03.600 And then what like what age are you for all of this? Are you just a teen or like when did how long did this go on for of like you 186 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:06.720 Not really 187 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:11.200 But you being interested in religion and like chance people and asking them questions and challenging them but 188 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:16.720 Not like when did it hit the point of you realizing that something was about to change in your yeah 189 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:22.960 So probably early teen age or like 13 something like that when you kind of you know think about more of these things 190 00:13:23.520 --> 00:13:25.520 Um, and that lasted 191 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:28.480 probably until maybe 192 00:13:29.040 --> 00:13:36.720 early 20s something like that and um, then I kind of like left after talking so many people about this at 193 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:40.800 University as well like asking people um, I still live with a few Christians as well 194 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:45.040 At the time not intentionally just what happened to me and um 195 00:13:45.680 --> 00:13:48.720 It's asking them about it and after a while it just gets a bit boring to be honest 196 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.040 Because you just talk about the same old thing and it's can be quite 197 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:56.240 Confrontational sometimes when you're asking people of faith all this kind of stuff and um, so after a while 198 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.840 So you know what this isn't always very fruitful and sometimes it's great 199 00:14:00.160 --> 00:14:04.320 But sometimes not everybody wants to defend why they believe what they believe so um 200 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:08.480 I kind of like left it for a little bit and there's a period of a couple of years where 201 00:14:09.280 --> 00:14:10.800 Just yeah, just like 202 00:14:10.800 --> 00:14:13.840 Gone with life and just did what really um 203 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:15.920 And then 204 00:14:15.920 --> 00:14:18.480 It's one's your question in terms like when that kind of change I guess 205 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:22.000 so 206 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:25.440 I was what basically after a few years of leaving it alone um 207 00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:28.800 Just for some reason like that 208 00:14:28.880 --> 00:14:36.320 Fire I guess was reunited and their interests was um came came back into my life around curiosity around 209 00:14:36.880 --> 00:14:39.040 the um topic of God and 210 00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:40.480 And 211 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:47.120 It's like watching more like podcasts and videos and things like that and um essentially I was watching a 212 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:49.440 Debit 213 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:57.120 Between any of this so like my guy and then a Christian who was like the other guy and um 214 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:02.320 Through debating like morality and the gold and this kind of thing and um 215 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:05.360 About two hours long and 216 00:15:05.920 --> 00:15:07.760 And by the end of it 217 00:15:07.760 --> 00:15:11.280 I kind of realized or came to the conclusion that the Christian 218 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:18.560 Wormed it there and now I blew my mind. Do you do you remember who the yeah, yeah, who was who are that? 219 00:15:18.880 --> 00:15:23.120 So um the Atheists he was called Sam Harris. He's quite like a famous 220 00:15:23.680 --> 00:15:27.760 Atheist from the new Atheist movement like we've reached Dawkins and these kind of people Christopher James 221 00:15:27.760 --> 00:15:30.800 Who's passed away enough and then you're done it um and 222 00:15:31.760 --> 00:15:32.960 And the 223 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:37.360 Christian is guy called William Lane Craig. He was like a philosopher the illusion 224 00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:41.360 And apologist and he did a really 225 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:45.760 Good job, I guess of defending his faith and then also 226 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:51.040 Deconstructing the other guy's positions around various things on um 227 00:15:51.680 --> 00:15:53.680 morality basically 228 00:15:53.680 --> 00:15:56.480 And yeah, bad the end of it. I was like what 229 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:03.680 What's going on? Like my like my position on my side is kind of like not come out very well here 230 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:05.280 and 231 00:16:05.280 --> 00:16:06.480 that really like 232 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.480 Caused like a like a crack in my belief system and it opened up like uh 233 00:16:11.280 --> 00:16:12.960 Yeah, the way I kind of see it is it made it 234 00:16:13.680 --> 00:16:21.120 Intellectually permissible to then explore some of these ideas which before I always thought were a bit silly 235 00:16:21.280 --> 00:16:25.200 Like you know christians are afraid of death and you know as they need a purpose and all this kind of thing 236 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.840 It's like tradition from many years ago in generations 237 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:33.360 Which would help to build up build up the West I guess but was really true not to share about that and um 238 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:38.400 So a lot of times when you have that like world view when people are trying to present things to you as all you kind of like 239 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:44.160 You're of like a like a like a force belled against that and you can't just anything that coming out of world first 240 00:16:44.800 --> 00:16:49.280 silly faith Christian stuff and then but this really like 241 00:16:49.920 --> 00:16:57.760 Caused me to think and and then look more deeply into what this guy was presenting in terms of his ideas and 242 00:16:58.320 --> 00:16:59.520 All the rest of it 243 00:16:59.520 --> 00:17:06.160 And then started doing like a deeper dive on birds particular ideas and arguments. Do you remember like what they were like 244 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:11.280 What were the the key points that really challenged your thinking? Yeah, so a big one was the 245 00:17:13.360 --> 00:17:18.320 On like the moral question so he was this guy was talking about it the moral landscape and how you know 246 00:17:18.320 --> 00:17:20.400 There's different peaks and all this kind of thing and um 247 00:17:21.760 --> 00:17:24.880 And then when the Christian Dr. Craig showed that well 248 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:27.920 If you know if that's true 249 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:32.800 Then people can have all different beliefs good and bad and whatever and then they'll 250 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:38.000 Can flourish but that mean might be at the detriment of other people and so on and so far 251 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.000 We're good to eventually into it, but basically showed that that didn't really work and um 252 00:17:43.520 --> 00:17:45.520 So that wasn't great 253 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:50.720 And even though I didn't I fully adopt that position. It was really just like 254 00:17:51.520 --> 00:17:57.120 Kind of jaded. Yeah, and then I was like, okay, well that's clear doesn't work and then other one was on um 255 00:17:59.280 --> 00:18:04.080 The creation of the universe as well and how he demonstrated um how 256 00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:11.200 There's good reasons to believe that the universe had a cause and a creator and 257 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:14.000 When you've been told so many times and heard that you know 258 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.680 We're not sure and it could be anything and it's maybe it keeps you know 259 00:18:18.080 --> 00:18:20.800 Coming into existence and then going back in again and all this kind of thing 260 00:18:20.800 --> 00:18:24.960 I said multiverse or there's this all this that what is basically it's massive uncertainty really 261 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:27.840 And then he kind of demonstrated that 262 00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:32.400 Well actually this seems to be like good reason to believe that there is a creator 263 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:37.440 And it was a moment in time and by a personal poor powerful um creator basically 264 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:42.880 I was like all right, okay, that's interesting and and that really brought 265 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:47.840 Like so right I didn't start to believe it right then but it was more that then made me 266 00:18:48.800 --> 00:18:50.480 look into 267 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:54.080 What these reasons were and then after like reading books on these things and 268 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:56.880 Watching more videos and asking questions 269 00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.280 Yeah, then that really 270 00:18:59.600 --> 00:19:02.640 Sad to kind of make sense and I was like man, maybe god is real 271 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.120 And uh, but he wanted to jump in because I thought if this jump in it's maybe too like a 272 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:10.160 um 273 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:13.040 Fast reaction and then I don't know if it will be true or not 274 00:19:13.040 --> 00:19:17.840 Maybe it's just an emotional reaction. I didn't want to just like believe it because it was competing in all of that and 275 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:23.040 Yes, so I really had to like dig deep into like why what these what these things mean 276 00:19:24.080 --> 00:19:28.960 And what they're trying to present I guess in terms of their world view and what that meant for me 277 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:32.400 I guess and but what it meant for me in terms of my life didn't really matter too much 278 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:34.240 I was like is it true right true 279 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:36.960 That's all that matters because I if it's true 280 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.800 I'll I'll leave it basically or I'll go along with that path and that was work 281 00:19:40.800 --> 00:19:45.840 So I always wanted to align myself with truth this could always been seeking the truth and um 282 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:51.120 Yeah, and then as I started to like try and like pull it apart. I like couldn't 283 00:19:51.520 --> 00:19:56.720 I was like oh man. This is really uh standing up to the test and uh 284 00:19:57.840 --> 00:20:03.600 Yeah, so that was pretty pretty wild and then that landed too. Wow. Yeah. They've been eating that. God couldn't exist 285 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.360 and then when when did you 286 00:20:07.360 --> 00:20:10.800 Move from just kind of understanding 287 00:20:11.600 --> 00:20:15.440 To opening yourself to experience and encounter 288 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:22.080 What was like did you was there a point where you just like decided okay? I'm just gonna try going to church or like 289 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:27.520 I'm gonna talk to a Christian to ask them what what was that step into 290 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.400 Going beyond just understanding 291 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:32.720 Yeah, good question man 292 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:36.960 So around this time when I was just looking all these ideas and I started to 293 00:20:37.840 --> 00:20:39.840 Think that God is possible 294 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:43.280 There's um I was in this like co-work in space 295 00:20:43.360 --> 00:20:49.280 So that's essentially an environment where lots of people from different businesses and work in a shared space and 296 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:54.960 There was um somebody in there who's a Christian and he was again to chat with them 297 00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:00.080 Uh every now and then and it's really interesting because they kept talking about this guy 298 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:01.920 This guy was called 299 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.760 Jesus 300 00:21:03.760 --> 00:21:06.080 And I was like why do you talk about Jesus? 301 00:21:06.080 --> 00:21:11.920 He said I was like what's going on? I was like I guess I know he is but why do you talk all the time and 302 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:18.560 So we got to like some really like long conversations like one to our conversations about Jesus and faith and all this kind of thing 303 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:21.440 And then after a while 304 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:25.840 Basically, they were like look you're very curious a lot of questions. It'd be great if you can 305 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.960 Come to an alpha course with me 306 00:21:29.520 --> 00:21:31.520 I was like oh come on. What's that? 307 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:33.520 Because I had no idea what this meant 308 00:21:33.520 --> 00:21:38.480 And then as early as the place where he asked to be questions and in the church and I was like okay, we go 309 00:21:39.040 --> 00:21:41.040 I was like right yeah, basically 310 00:21:41.280 --> 00:21:42.560 and um 311 00:21:42.560 --> 00:21:44.560 So I was like a setup kind of thing 312 00:21:44.560 --> 00:21:48.560 And um anyway, so I was like all right. I'll entertain it and 313 00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:51.840 Yes, obviously I went to 314 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:54.160 Um an alpha course and 315 00:21:55.120 --> 00:21:59.040 So I went away. I went to warm and then I went to the first session. I was a bit unsure of it 316 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:05.520 Not too sure. It's good. It's nice people are great on and so on but yeah, that's the food was great and 317 00:22:06.320 --> 00:22:08.960 We then I thought this is a right moment. However 318 00:22:09.840 --> 00:22:11.040 After that 319 00:22:11.040 --> 00:22:13.040 That kind of couldn't get out my head for a while 320 00:22:13.120 --> 00:22:16.720 So I was so impressed with these ideas and I was like that's a really good place to do this and 321 00:22:16.800 --> 00:22:19.760 To think about these things and talk about it and um 322 00:22:21.120 --> 00:22:23.760 I think as well just just to add what in terms of like 323 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.960 Prior to that point. I've always like being like in my own mind or like doing things myself 324 00:22:29.600 --> 00:22:34.960 Um, and then I kind of realized that you know doing things with other people is it's a good thing to figure things out 325 00:22:35.360 --> 00:22:36.640 um 326 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:42.160 So anyway, I ended up going to the next alpha course at the church and 327 00:22:43.520 --> 00:22:46.560 Yeah, it was great. It was like transformative really. He's my favorite night of the week 328 00:22:46.800 --> 00:22:52.560 Absolute days to go then talk to people about of faith and just like even though people who were you know 329 00:22:52.560 --> 00:22:57.920 But there's atheist Christians Muslims and all different this and uh, you should really enjoy just like going back or forth 330 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:01.760 And then watching the films and then talking about those and um 331 00:23:03.280 --> 00:23:05.440 Yeah, that over the course of that time 332 00:23:06.800 --> 00:23:12.160 Because that that heart was like softening to the idea of Jesus because at all to that point all I got to was 333 00:23:12.800 --> 00:23:13.760 God 334 00:23:13.760 --> 00:23:20.800 A god then after that it's like okay, well which god yeah, right which faith I guess because I was I was looking at like anything 335 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:24.960 I was looking at like mosques in the god's churches. I was like, would you have his true god? 336 00:23:25.040 --> 00:23:31.840 I'll go that way. I was like I was like if he's true then you know, even if it's if it's inconvenient, I'll have to do it and 337 00:23:33.280 --> 00:23:38.960 Yeah, and then then on the alpha course are presenting the case for Jesus and the historicity of the resurrection 338 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:44.160 um, the fact that he came to earth then he was like he was here and all the rest of it and 339 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:46.800 Yeah, it seemed like really compelling 340 00:23:46.800 --> 00:23:49.760 And then after doing other research on the side and looking into himself 341 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.160 Um, combined with the doll of that 342 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.000 Yeah, this was 343 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:58.320 Yeah, very convincing and in terms of that moment, I guess so the um 344 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:02.080 One of the lead pastors at the church at the time 345 00:24:03.040 --> 00:24:07.440 Challenge me basically towards the end, but Luke a lot of the big questions you asked have been been answered 346 00:24:08.080 --> 00:24:11.760 And sort of yeah, yeah, this is it and uh, I 347 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:16.400 Appreciate you still got more questions. That's great. And they were like I was all rushing it. I've been doing this for a long time 348 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:19.920 And I'd love to invite you to say to say yes 349 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:22.960 Um, to become a Christian 350 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:27.680 All right, maybe and then um, so I thought about it and I was like 351 00:24:28.560 --> 00:24:30.320 Yeah, all right 352 00:24:30.320 --> 00:24:38.160 So it was really like rather right moment and then um, yeah, that was it said yes there and then after you know like a short prayer with them 353 00:24:39.120 --> 00:24:40.160 and 354 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:45.040 Yeah, that was it like transformed it was never the same so the woke up that after like stopped swearing overnight 355 00:24:45.040 --> 00:24:50.160 So that that desire completely disappeared from me. That was wild is that was really like um 356 00:24:51.760 --> 00:24:54.880 Interesting experience because that wasn't like a you know like a intellectual thing 357 00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:59.280 It was like that designer disappeared and now I'm suddenly not wanting to do that anymore. So that was 358 00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:06.720 Yeah, really fascinating to be honest and um, and then from there it was just a process of right well now I'm this new 359 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:14.400 New guy I guess and now I've got to or I want to you should I say I want to figure this out and go on this this journey 360 00:25:14.560 --> 00:25:19.680 So out of um, yeah, desire to really want to explore this new 361 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:26.560 Identity it was getting involved in church and then yeah, I loved it and then I joined um 362 00:25:27.280 --> 00:25:31.040 Like a life group and groups more group when we call it and I was like this is amazing 363 00:25:31.040 --> 00:25:35.760 We get to meet like during the week and these people all like my friends and like for the citizens Christ 364 00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:40.080 And we talk about all these amazing things together. Well, this is so good 365 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:46.000 I'll have missed on this all my life and honestly for you even to this day when I you know go to life with my man 366 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:54.560 This is amazing. I want an incredible. Yeah, there's yeah, what a credible thing to do and um to experience and yeah 367 00:25:54.560 --> 00:25:58.000 There's all this fruit kind of status emerge. Yes, and um 368 00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:04.720 And particularly when living a relatively well a very dry spiritual life prior to that. This was just uh 369 00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:11.040 Oblifting and um, yeah, this is just even now I'm at for some time wake up like man 370 00:26:11.120 --> 00:26:18.480 This is nuts like yeah, I mean when I'm doing various things and um like man like what would my what my for myself say to me today 371 00:26:19.120 --> 00:26:24.320 Maybe nuts and uh, yeah, so used to like laugh at like christians and things and um 372 00:26:25.120 --> 00:26:29.760 I'm not really told for a book. I was at my uh one of my friends weddings and they were um Christians 373 00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:35.760 And uh, I was an atheist at the time and me and my friends went with them obviously it's all or or may 374 00:26:35.760 --> 00:26:39.280 So yeah, first movie that was it was great and um, but they were 375 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:43.120 Christians and they were singing all these songs there 376 00:26:43.120 --> 00:26:46.880 But like as you know properly proper like classic um worship music basically 377 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.600 And at the time I had no experience that whatsoever 378 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.120 And they were like shut you know like we get really passionate about this 379 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:55.200 We were literally crying with laughter 380 00:26:55.280 --> 00:26:59.280 Like these guys are nuts like look that up saying the love Jesus 381 00:26:59.760 --> 00:27:01.760 And then now it's like I want of them now 382 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.960 And I'm like man, this is this is this wild 383 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:10.160 What a journey is going from like you know one one side to the I know yeah well a lot back. I'm like 384 00:27:11.040 --> 00:27:15.440 This is crazy. I what god can do is just is just incredible and um, yeah 385 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:21.280 So that was they at the mall the after I said yes to that then it was the that was the like head to the heart 386 00:27:21.280 --> 00:27:25.440 I think I was definitely missing the heart stuff in and in round you know there 387 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:28.880 And uh, yeah, and then it's been okay. It's just like trying to 388 00:27:29.840 --> 00:27:31.840 To birth I guess 389 00:27:31.840 --> 00:27:36.800 And so I love what you said about like the importance of community to actually not keeping your head 390 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.880 Yeah, let's talk about things because I think even once you do say yes to be in a Christian 391 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:42.480 It's not like you suddenly have all the answers 392 00:27:42.800 --> 00:27:47.200 And some things we don't know the answer to and I think that's I would love to ask you a bit about is someone 393 00:27:47.520 --> 00:27:52.560 wants to read everything and know everything and understand what is true. There are some things that 394 00:27:53.360 --> 00:27:58.080 There's an element of faith like it wouldn't be faith if we knew all the answers. Yeah, so how do you 395 00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:00.400 For your mind? 396 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:04.400 How do you do that? How do you do the faith element where you don't know the answers? 397 00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:07.760 Um, that's a good question 398 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:12.160 Um, um, I think like even just dear to dear might thinking 399 00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:16.960 Is this what should we doing? Is this honoring god? Is this being obedient? So there's that 400 00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.280 Like I've done some time to know like some time of the thing is 401 00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:24.240 You know spirit led but is it is it or is it me some always think question? 402 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:27.760 I'm not questioning everything movement or if they put like sometimes I think well that my man 403 00:28:27.760 --> 00:28:31.920 Is this what really needs to be doing? So just yet a searching out is this truly 404 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:34.640 Like my purpose of what I should be doing 405 00:28:35.120 --> 00:28:36.240 um 406 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:37.760 That's quite a big one 407 00:28:37.760 --> 00:28:42.400 But then when in sometimes you know pull that to the test kind of thing and then there's this fruit and dollars reopening 408 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:44.400 Oh great, okay. That was that was maybe a 409 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:49.680 You know decision-wish which was aligned with god's grit and um, and then yeah asking for wisdom 410 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.440 I guess well from the people so I was asking other people probably been accountable to the people 411 00:28:53.840 --> 00:28:55.920 Um asking for advice and wisdom 412 00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:01.520 I think yeah ultimately as as the as the body of Christ kind of thing is as um asking 413 00:29:02.320 --> 00:29:06.160 Then like what do you think? Because we can't you know see your own 414 00:29:06.800 --> 00:29:12.080 Life objectively. So it's trying to just do my best in that really and then yet been around 415 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:15.280 With the christian system things are like caught and then other things to talk 416 00:29:15.280 --> 00:29:20.080 So it's like trying to be in the right environment. So yes um to do that 417 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:21.920 But yeah, I mean like every day is like 418 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:27.360 Experience of of trust of fear and um yeah, but then 419 00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:30.320 I think the good thing about when you've 420 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.240 Didn't like a deep dive on all the big things you can really like 421 00:29:35.040 --> 00:29:39.680 Rest on that as a really solid foundation. So if you do get any tests kind of things. Well 422 00:29:39.840 --> 00:29:41.360 I think 423 00:29:41.360 --> 00:29:42.880 I was you know 424 00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:46.640 Think back to that. Well, well, this is there's good reasons for believing in this 425 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:50.000 It's not just doesn't just believe it because I thought it was going to be good 426 00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:52.400 Oh, whatever. It's like no, I believe it's true as well 427 00:29:53.120 --> 00:29:57.280 Well, I suppose it's if you I think they said this on one of the alpha videos actually where it's like if 428 00:29:59.120 --> 00:30:01.840 If we've got so much evidence for a lot of it to be true 429 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:04.720 Then we need to trust that it's all true 430 00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:10.480 Um, like if there's enough evidence of like the stuff of Jesus that we can literally see this historic 431 00:30:11.040 --> 00:30:12.080 um 432 00:30:12.080 --> 00:30:15.040 proof I don't remember if you remember the actual phrasing that's in the alpha series 433 00:30:15.040 --> 00:30:16.080 I'm pretty sure it's in it 434 00:30:16.080 --> 00:30:18.720 But like if there's enough evidence then we need to trust that there's like 435 00:30:19.280 --> 00:30:21.760 We can we can trust we can trust what's given to us 436 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:23.440 um 437 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:27.040 But it is it is hard because we do have doubts and we do have thoughts and we do like 438 00:30:28.080 --> 00:30:32.960 Even when we do believe it and say that yes, it doesn't mean you suddenly have no questions and your life 439 00:30:33.280 --> 00:30:35.280 Like looks can be different 440 00:30:36.320 --> 00:30:38.320 What do you do now 441 00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:43.120 What do you do now now that now that you're a Christian like has has it 442 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.520 changed your your whole life or just how you do 443 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:50.560 The things that you already did does that make sense 444 00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:58.160 Like has it has it influenced your career in any way? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've changed everything really really 445 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:02.880 Yeah, literally like the why is this completely different. Yeah, I tried to you know 446 00:31:03.040 --> 00:31:05.040 Live out like kingdom values now as well 447 00:31:05.040 --> 00:31:09.040 So like in business and work and this kind of thing always trying to make sure that 448 00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:11.520 Yeah, living 449 00:31:11.520 --> 00:31:14.160 Within which are we which they honors and glorifies God 450 00:31:14.560 --> 00:31:18.160 Um even in the day or today and it's kind of you know, like you know, I think it's ribbons 12 451 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:22.160 That being that like living sacrifice and that all bodies being that so we've got like some worship 452 00:31:22.560 --> 00:31:24.560 Church worship also is 453 00:31:24.560 --> 00:31:26.880 Or everyday life or interactions and otherwise 454 00:31:27.520 --> 00:31:31.040 And um, it's it's honoring that as well. So yeah, I think 455 00:31:31.520 --> 00:31:38.320 Yeah, the why is huge and then even saying no to certain things now. So if like this contradicts 456 00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:43.360 Mm-hmm sure or it's not this isn't a wise move in terms of like, you know 457 00:31:44.080 --> 00:31:48.560 They as a Christian then yeah can't do that 458 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:54.880 So there's lots of things have changed lots of things are yeah in a big in a big way. It's be honest in personal life 459 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:56.160 um 460 00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:57.920 Where quite I guess 461 00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:02.720 Well, I suppose it's also about like part of your frustrations early on when you were talking to Christians 462 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:06.080 Which is that you believe this but your life looks no different. Yeah. So actually 463 00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:09.840 I'm glad that your life does look different. Yeah, good point. Yeah, that's you're now 464 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:12.240 part of the 465 00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:13.760 Mm-hmm the good argument 466 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:16.960 Yeah, yeah, well try our best 467 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:22.400 But you're you're actually choosing to live out what you believe which means when people do come your way 468 00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:27.040 That I guess because you're very into 10 people about Jesus now and evangelism and all that stuff 469 00:32:27.040 --> 00:32:31.920 So when people come to your way, you can confidently be like this is what I believe and this is how I'm living it out 470 00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:34.160 Um, and I'd love to ask you a bit about 471 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:43.040 Your passion for evangelism and telling people about Jesus um like how how do you now go about that especially knowing your journey of like 472 00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:48.400 What you've gone through in your testimony? Maybe understanding people's brains of when they're against it or 473 00:32:49.120 --> 00:32:51.520 Wanting to fight against it like how how are you now? 474 00:32:52.560 --> 00:32:54.800 evangelizing. Yeah, I think it's 475 00:32:56.240 --> 00:33:00.800 It comes out of just that understanding of how like graceful God has been to me 476 00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:06.800 And then out of that then it's just trying to share that and just realizing as well like what's what's at stake? 477 00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:13.600 In terms of what eternal relationship we've got like that's pretty big. Yeah, so when I really think about it like man 478 00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:18.880 That's just such a little gravity the risk to that and it's just it's huge and um I 479 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:22.800 I remember eat a long time ago even when I was an atheist like there's um 480 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:28.560 These two these two guys and they're like look if you aren't going out on the street talk about your faith 481 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.880 It's like you're rocking people of the opportunity to do that. They use as an argument against people of faith 482 00:33:33.040 --> 00:33:37.760 I was like really I thought I agreed with that. I was they know what like they're kind of right like if you hold on to this like 483 00:33:38.320 --> 00:33:39.520 precious 484 00:33:39.520 --> 00:33:41.520 The gospel then 485 00:33:41.520 --> 00:33:43.040 Keep it to yourself 486 00:33:43.040 --> 00:33:48.640 Then yeah, that's that's you're like depriving people of his opportunity ultimately 487 00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:54.960 And that was I really like yeah and and since then I believe that and then obviously since changing my 488 00:33:55.360 --> 00:34:01.440 But my identity in my worldview then I wanted to like live out I guess and we all can do that whether it's in not 489 00:34:01.520 --> 00:34:04.080 Conversations or whether it's you know more relational 490 00:34:04.560 --> 00:34:09.520 Um, you don't have to do it on the streets and things necessarily but yeah, and then it's out of that 491 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.880 I just want to kind of like interact and engage with people and um 492 00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:14.480 Yeah, some days I might oh 493 00:34:14.560 --> 00:34:19.920 Of it and I'm like let's go out a cat way to get out and chat people some days. It's much more like oh, man 494 00:34:20.080 --> 00:34:25.520 I'm not really feeling this rose and I've just got to really just like you know just go through it and just like get 495 00:34:25.520 --> 00:34:28.320 I want you to get warmed up is it is a lot easier 496 00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:32.960 But yeah, sometimes it's not in this way in the mood to do it. It's just more like a discipline. It's like right 497 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:37.920 I'll be doing this exactly a man. So it's like more like okay. I need to do this 498 00:34:38.240 --> 00:34:44.160 Um, and yeah, just trying to do that. That's why I sense in a way god has been calling me to do. So that's why 499 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:50.960 I'm doing it basically. Um, it's trying to be obedient to that and then that that what that brings out as well 500 00:34:51.040 --> 00:34:56.960 Like who knows if that's something down the line god's like right the reason you did this is because of that 501 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:01.520 And then that sets sort of preparation kind of thing who knows but um, yeah 502 00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.840 And it's actually quite exciting as well in terms of how god's made me kind of like really enjoy it 503 00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:08.880 So once I'm doing it, I'm like this is cool 504 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:13.120 This is the first year after like a really interesting day and we've all been out and you know 505 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:16.800 We're talking about the stories and how the interactions we've done and prank people 506 00:35:17.200 --> 00:35:21.520 Um, yeah, it's real good for them. It's amazing. It's still a life-giving and um 507 00:35:22.560 --> 00:35:26.480 Yeah, and again, I think it's true. I think it's real and I want to 508 00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:30.720 bring bring that and um try and be you know um 509 00:35:32.080 --> 00:35:36.080 Through his strength like salt and light in in the dark basically 510 00:35:36.720 --> 00:35:39.920 Um, what would you say to someone who 511 00:35:41.680 --> 00:35:46.640 Doesn't value the sharing of their faith openly with others 512 00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:50.080 Because I feel like I know a lot of people who 513 00:35:50.720 --> 00:35:56.720 believe in Jesus and come to church and um, I guess it's that I guess it's that quote um 514 00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:05.200 Which is uh preach the gospel and if necessary use words um, but I think often it is necessary to use words 515 00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:06.320 Jesus used words 516 00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:10.800 Jesus used words like what would you say to someone who's like oh, I'm just I'm just 517 00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:15.360 Gonna, you know, live as a Christian and mind-mind business and 518 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:19.120 You know if someone asks me about it. I might share it 519 00:36:19.680 --> 00:36:21.680 But I'm not gonna go out of my way 520 00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:28.240 What would you say to to shift that perspective that I think is probably quite prevalent? Yeah, what is the great commission? 521 00:36:29.120 --> 00:36:31.120 Oh 522 00:36:32.080 --> 00:36:34.400 Right we're here to to know God and to make him known 523 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.160 We're not here to just like keep it to ourselves right so yeah 524 00:36:38.160 --> 00:36:43.840 I mean a first for mercy to all religion but God and then all of that I'll pouring if that then it's to to share it 525 00:36:44.080 --> 00:36:48.320 And you know this is the part this is the co-partnering with God to then 526 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:53.840 Go to the rest of the world or whether it's close by or far away to then 527 00:36:54.640 --> 00:36:59.200 Yeah, so to do that and that's literally never commanded to do that 528 00:36:59.600 --> 00:37:02.880 So um, yeah, super point and also like as a challenge as well 529 00:37:03.520 --> 00:37:05.280 I think that there's a lot of people 530 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:09.120 Um, particularly in the west who would just live like really comfortable lives and 531 00:37:10.160 --> 00:37:14.560 I think we need to like lay that down the cross really like lay down comfort because 532 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:18.640 Automatically, you know when we stand before God as well like, you know 533 00:37:19.200 --> 00:37:22.000 Can we really say well I was comfortable there. So I don't want to do it because it was it was it 534 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:24.160 Like good luck with that 535 00:37:24.160 --> 00:37:26.720 Like if you want to say that to God then good good good good luck 536 00:37:26.720 --> 00:37:31.440 But then but yeah, I think and yeah, I think we do want to do it because we've been like the scared to not do it 537 00:37:31.680 --> 00:37:34.080 I think you just be to if we just realize what we have received 538 00:37:34.640 --> 00:37:38.720 Then yeah, let's let's get out there and talk to people doesn't again. It doesn't have to be 539 00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:41.440 On the streets or all that kind of thing 540 00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:43.440 But if you can do it 541 00:37:43.680 --> 00:37:49.200 Are you workplace with your family in your friends? Oh, it can be as like a simple practical. You can tell you out 542 00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:53.920 I went to church as we can if someone and then if somebody's interested they go oh, what does that look like? 543 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:59.360 I didn't think you're a Christian or whatever they start small and this work from there. There's being encouraged and 544 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:05.040 Yeah, I think much of that's helpful, but yeah, it has that simple stuff on anywhere 545 00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:07.920 I think even seeing in your life like how God has placed 546 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:14.960 Christians actually throughout your time. So from your teacher to housemates to even got the co-working space and others 547 00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:17.120 I'm sure as well. So actually how 548 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:22.800 Encourage us. How can we be those people in the lives of those that don't believe like 549 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:28.320 Because I think also for you, you are very curious and asking lots of questions and encouraging debates and yeah 550 00:38:28.560 --> 00:38:32.320 And I'm sure the guy the co-working space. I bet you he was praying. It was a girl actually. Oh girl 551 00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:34.960 Yeah, I'm sure I ought to 552 00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:39.600 Yeah, I kept that ambiguous up there. Yeah, yeah. I bet she was praying for you 553 00:38:39.600 --> 00:38:42.480 I bet she was like actually like properly 554 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:47.920 invested in in you and so how can we best go about that that doesn't like 555 00:38:49.040 --> 00:38:51.200 force you to try and open a conversation you're not ready with 556 00:38:51.520 --> 00:38:57.760 Um, but like yeah, encourage us. How can we be that? Yeah, I love that. So I think just thinking um back to 557 00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:59.840 to so so um 558 00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:01.600 So she was very like 559 00:39:01.600 --> 00:39:06.480 lived like a different life, which is quite like just something different about what I'm also like what is that? I think that was 560 00:39:07.200 --> 00:39:12.160 Holy spirit and and just being different and um, I think as Christians were called to live like 561 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:16.320 Like as like a contrast community not necessarily for the sake of it 562 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:20.480 But because if we stand for this and that is different to the world and um, yeah 563 00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:25.520 I think the witness of many people just like a alpha when I met all these Christians who were just like 564 00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.120 Just nice people and though like inquisitive and the curious and they wanted to like you know move me 565 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:38.640 Along I guess and just honestly to be there just to hear why to say not necessarily think just change my opinion or my view or anything 566 00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:42.560 I don't think yeah, the whole character. It's then what's that quote something like um 567 00:39:42.720 --> 00:39:45.600 All characters the only Bible or some of us ever read kind of thing 568 00:39:45.600 --> 00:39:48.560 I think that's that's really good. I think that's that's probably the first thing 569 00:39:48.560 --> 00:39:53.360 Just like be aware of how we're coming across sometimes it might be in old as well 570 00:39:53.520 --> 00:39:59.200 It might mean like calling something out or standing for something if there's injustice in front of you might mean 571 00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:01.360 Taking a stand 572 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:06.000 That that can be really like striking sometimes. I've seen that few times that man. That's really powerful 573 00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:08.400 And then when you you know really like 574 00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:10.880 The white place or otherwise 575 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:14.640 Yeah, asking questions or being curious like if if you're 576 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:20.320 Friends um any of these or maybe people listen to this or any of these like asking questions 577 00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:22.800 I think that's really good place to start as well like 578 00:40:23.600 --> 00:40:29.040 If you're you know Christian you want to you're talking to your non-believe friends like why do you not believe or 579 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:33.040 And they agreed from there and seeing what they think to that and trying to respond to that in the 580 00:40:33.520 --> 00:40:36.720 In a way of which you sense is is the right way I guess 581 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:38.640 um 582 00:40:38.640 --> 00:40:41.840 Yeah, there's I think I think yeah the mid big thing is his character is a big one 583 00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:43.760 And I don't go also like if there's anybody 584 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:50.240 Any of these sort of people are unsure that are listening to this. I probably encourage him to like be open to 585 00:40:50.720 --> 00:40:55.360 Suspending their current belief system, which is not believing in God. Just be open to that 586 00:40:55.520 --> 00:41:03.280 But let me add to change review. Let's be open to suspend it perhaps and then look into these things about you know who 587 00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:08.400 Is Jesus is the good evidence to suggest they did come 588 00:41:09.040 --> 00:41:11.040 Why do people die 589 00:41:11.040 --> 00:41:15.920 For the gospel this message when they didn't have to I think I've just got no it's not true 590 00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:20.720 But they didn't they died or you know, it's like there's so many powerful 591 00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:22.480 um 592 00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:27.280 Pieces of evidence and all the rest of it and and today was all things happening 593 00:41:27.680 --> 00:41:32.880 Um, so you have to be open to that and um even getting around people is a good thing to do with off 594 00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:35.520 You know, I'm believer are you open to these things so 595 00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:40.240 Finding churches going on an alpha course. There's so many things we can do 596 00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:45.040 I don't think just to start with one thing. They're just like right here. What can I do and then I move closer 597 00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:49.520 So that so yeah for me was just like this, you know, the alpha course 598 00:41:49.600 --> 00:41:53.280 Autography people that really works that was that's the way I'm kind of made a guess 599 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:59.920 So I wanted to go down that path and um, yeah, hopefully maybe some of those things um maybe for the people as well 600 00:42:00.240 --> 00:42:04.960 But ultimately it's just oh, yeah, if you've been open to the idea um of 601 00:42:05.680 --> 00:42:09.360 Who Jesus and why can that's probably by the start 602 00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:18.000 I have two final very quick fire questions. Do you have a quick fire question that you'd like to sandwich between my quick fire questions 603 00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:21.520 No, but I can try and think of one. Okay, my first quick fire question 604 00:42:22.080 --> 00:42:24.080 Um, what's your favorite Bible verse 605 00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:27.280 But one that's been a key one in your in your testimony 606 00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:29.120 Hmm 607 00:42:29.120 --> 00:42:34.160 Probably living sacrifice. I think that's what I'm reminded quite a lot of them in living in um, I think it's rumored to 12 608 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:35.840 I think 12 609 00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:37.360 Yeah, basically living as a no 610 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:43.280 Um, I think that's just good because it's just every day. It's like there's in the little moments is 611 00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:47.440 You know because what people talk a lot about, you know, they like worship ultimately 612 00:42:47.520 --> 00:42:52.480 And I think you know, it's just trance. Yeah, worship God in a way we can whether it's in 613 00:42:55.200 --> 00:42:57.760 Dear today alive conversations exercise 614 00:42:58.400 --> 00:42:59.600 studying 615 00:42:59.600 --> 00:43:05.600 Whatever there's all the different things we can worship God um, we can get where she got into some different ways 616 00:43:06.240 --> 00:43:07.760 Um 617 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:13.520 Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you guys on the podcast. Wait, what was your second story? I'm coming to it. Oh, oh sorry 618 00:43:13.520 --> 00:43:15.520 Sorry, sorry, sorry 619 00:43:15.520 --> 00:43:19.840 Thank you so much for giving us your time and telling us put back the story. I encourage anyone watching 620 00:43:20.720 --> 00:43:24.640 Look at alpha if you're interested about asking questions and 621 00:43:25.680 --> 00:43:30.000 You know comment away do all that stuff. Um, what emoji should people drop in the comments? 622 00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:34.000 Fire flames 623 00:43:35.600 --> 00:43:37.600 Together flame thrower 624 00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:43.280 Wait, do you know the flame thrower? No, it's a gun that shoots flame. Let's not do that. So 625 00:43:43.600 --> 00:43:46.800 You do the flames and I'll do the thrower. Okay, flame thrower 626 00:43:47.600 --> 00:43:49.600 Yeah, let's say okay 627 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:51.840 Thanks joining us 628 00:43:52.160 --> 00:43:57.040 Join us next time at the way like comments subscribe find him as well nice