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guys welcome back to the way so gas for today's episode we've got a really cool

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guest for you guys hey I'm Zach if we haven't met and this is my co-host

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Michelle Michelle say hi hi guys Michelle are you excited for this episode

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I'm so best at diving yeah we're gonna hear a little bit of this awesome man

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story yeah and then we're gonna dive into some stuff around like having a

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soft heart which I'm really really looking forward to but I need you to say your

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name because we were literally just talking about what your real full name is I

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know you as Tebo but how do you say your real full name so it's always been

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tricky you know when the register comes around at school yeah James

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Andrew Miles and just pause I'll just I'm here man that's what and it means

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we're grateful yeah so it is my middle name Cibonga Gonke which yeah that's a

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Zulu name my middle name and my first name is it's one a slash Betty

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name in South Africa we've got like tribes and my father is the Betty

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tribe my mother is Zulu so I my best of so cool that's so cool we speak in

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Africa at broad to be if I know for cons that's it which means I'm speaking

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a little bit of we you know South African history let's let's not go there but we

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had to offer cons and so yeah so so we did a bit yeah yeah man I'm excited to

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hear a little bit of your story growing up in South Africa and all that sort

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of thing but hey if you're watching this or if you're listening to this on

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YouTube or Spotify make sure you hit the alert subscribe drop a comment

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we'll let you know what to comment at the end we always do you gotta be

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thinking what emoji can they draw think about it think about it Michelle's

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gonna have it for the end of the podcast for us but you guys know our vision

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is to reach every young person with the gospel and that can only really

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happen with you guys engaging with our content so we really appreciate you

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buying into that by subscribing commenting liking that just pushes it to

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people who haven't heard the good news yet yeah but hey we're gonna get into

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his story let's roll the credits and get into it

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dude okay I want to hear what you've been working on this past week because I

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mean we've we've only met a couple of times but each time I've chatted with

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you you've been doing something different and super interesting so what is

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what is this week look like we've met a couple times but I've loved being

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around you guys both of you like in the time that we have been around each

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other and I think I'm gonna come to a question but I just want to encourage you

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because it's just important to do so and whenever there's an opportunity to do

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so I think you ought to take it I've loved being around you guys and I've

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loved just we were just talking about age just now but but I think that you

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both just carry such such a humility such a such a depth and and such an

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honor you know you we don't talk about it on these days because honor was you

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know I don't know you know yeah sort of used and abused at a certain time but

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but you guys just carry just such a deep honor and a deep reverence for what

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you do for the things of God for the person of Jesus and that is super

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encouraging and inspiring and and I just wanted to say that and I love I love

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you carry I love how you see the world and how you approach the things of the

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Lord and it's super cool this week exactly no no pleasure I I I run a creative

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agency so this week has been a mix of presentations where we're sort of

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trading brands most most days and so we have had a few deadlines which have been

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pretty cool we presented for a charity that works with young people just

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been really cool we work and we've got some corporate clients which has been

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fun and I just do a lot of thinking and proposing and pitching and you know

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it's sort of the whirlwind of of creativity and creating and and trying to get

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our work in front of people and and really help people from a branding

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perspective and so I've been in a lot of that this week yeah man I mean you you

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are such a cool person to me like you you've you've been a pastor a lead

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pastor a young adults pastor I didn't know this but is it true you've been a

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worship pastor too I have yeah worship pastor and you and you lit a creative

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agency now and I mean dude we're gonna we're gonna get into all of that but I'd

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love to hear just a bit of your story because that's something I never heard so

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tell me like what was what was church like growing up in South Africa sure so

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cultural Christianity I feel like everybody believed in something growing up

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and we were mass our family was was a Christian family and my grandmother though

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had had like a real faith I think I think there's when I talk about cultural

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Christianity I feel like there's you guys know what I mean by that you know

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it's in the culture yeah we're Christians and and you grow up as as as a child

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and you sort of think this is pretty normal it's regular we're going to church

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and and I think what my grandmother had was was quite special you know my uncle

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her son talks about it he and I have some really good conversations these days and

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he talks about his mother's faith and you know he says look she she really

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carried a sweet spirit and a genuine love for the Lord which I think changed

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the dynamic and the trajectory of let me say my life you know because our

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family is all kinds of everywhere but that must have had an an impact on me and

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so I go to school a Christian school and you know we've got chapel two three

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times a week and and all the while I just do have this pull towards the

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presence of God I don't understand it to be the presence of God at eight or nine

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or ten wow but perhaps I think in hindsight that's what it is you know and so I

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think I always I always had a propensity to to worship the Lord looking back and

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and so I I'm very comfortable in church I'm comfortable with three four-hour

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services at the time which you know got a bit boring and hard to get through in

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the heat of Derbims of Africa and so I go to school and and school complements that

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and so I've got some good my headmaster I remember just a solid man again just

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scripture teaching and it was a unique Sonora you know and and I feel super blessed to have been

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around the word of God and and the presence of Jesus and third was maybe quite traditional

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and formal still I had a knowledge and so I you know that's that's my that's my perspective

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but perhaps not so much a relationship with the Lord fast forward to moving to the UK at 15

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I sort of spend three years wow I live in England now and suddenly I'm out of the the comfort

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and the norm of this ruling environment and and the close family my grandmother had passed away

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for years prior and so I'm like wow like wow 15 to 18 it's it's it's interesting now I'm sort of

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you know I'm I'm drinking a bit you know and girls and suddenly I'm like this is what I've

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been missing the world you know but you know to answer you guys I think I was always in my heart

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just church boy I really found my way back at 18 can I press on is that okay yeah what happened

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in 18 I'm skipping I'm doing South Africa and so 18 I'm I'm I think you know it's a new

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resolution I'm like okay God I've been away from you for like four months you know I just haven't

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been engaged in this particular church and and therefore my relationship with you had just gone

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a bit dry and so I just I you know I can't live like this anymore you know I'm just distant from

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the Lord I'm just nothing I feel numb distant I decide I can't live like this anymore and I wander

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down at the time to a local church and there's a guy who's speaking and his name's Reggie Reggie

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Dabs and he's speaking a sermon entitled I cannot live like this anymore. Oh wait and I just

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think to myself this is crazy you know and just a complete stitch up and I'm just finding myself

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saying yes the Lord I wander down to the front give Reggie a hug you praise for me and quite literally

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you know I haven't looked back and and and just in kind of the Lord you're speaking from

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Geuron me 30 where God says see I've said before you life and death so choose life and and I don't

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remember much about what Reggie said that day I just remember you know big black American guy

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is like choose laugh man choose laugh and I was like oh okay I will yes you know so I was you know

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I was I was done the front man choosing life and that's always stayed with me yeah

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I was a bit of the early journey and then what happened after that

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so I'm assuming from 15 to 18 you mood for school as well yeah well my mother was living here

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okay so I'm in boarding school and she's like look you need to come live with me and so I'm like

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cool you know and probably you was having a hard time at school I changed schools um in South

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Africa and and so you know I I move over and she's like she's like cool yeah so it's hard to

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you know um difficult time um super super at 15 moving really hard culture leaving super friendships

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that had been formed and forged over time super tough and then identity like suddenly I'm not

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living in in Yorkshire you know in the north of England middle of nowhere you know just super

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it was different you know let's let's say that it was it was different and now you're trying to

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you know navigate here you are yeah so um I moved to university in in the September and just

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through myself in just through myself into church into ministry and and that's just what we did

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you know we we served and we were in a faith environment a culture that was just wow like

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God is massive and and you know we were young you know and we were trusted with leadership

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and a young age and and so I ended up leading the worship team and then students you know

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just you know I'm just to student myself like or just about so to graduate and so you trust

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into these positions and you're learning a lot and you're leading people older than you and

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and man it was it was just it was high energy and it was great you know and

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and and learnt a huge load a huge amount and um somewhere during that time I meet my wife and

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she is in second year of university I'm a I'm the student pastor and so we're like friends for

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two years and then the day she's graduating I've now done two years internship training at our

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church the day she's leaving to move back home to Birmingham from Leeds is the day a friend of mine

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like maybe a couple days before it's like hey hey what about becks you know and I just haven't

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thought about it you know I hadn't thought about it but she's about to move yeah she's she's yeah you

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know cut shoot shoot and um and I just haven't thought about it you know the whole time the whole time

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she was right there she she was everything that I I was looking for and I thought I needed to

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marry a black South African woman because that's what I knew that's those are girls I dated before

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and you know I had in my mind like you know you do you have ideals you have your lists you have

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the things right and for the most parts of them are important um but the moment you know

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a mutual friend just dropped in my it just it just clicked and so so we start you know

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so I sort of done I said because you know we're friends like and um let's not turn this into a dating

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discussion you're getting excited it is off the Valentine's Day I I it was like a meeting

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I said I said let's go from milkshake and I said look this is how I feel now I just told it

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and you know it's very South African of me yeah it's very direct and I just told it how I feel

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and she said cool you know I think I said think about it she said I think about it

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yeah but it's like a meeting yeah and you know and yeah I said a bit more than that

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you know a bit more romance but I was you know I was like I think she like one of you's taking

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now yeah yeah yeah is there anything I missed it sounds in the corner yeah

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so I'm like I like you know like that's the shift you know there's been a shift in my spirit

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and I like you now you know and and so she goes away she thinks about it and you know she's like

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yeah you know she'll tell a different version right and um and then you know she comes about

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you know just like yeah like you know this date and she would date you know and it's awesome so

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quick dating story for you that mission I mean I like it yeah yeah yeah yeah so you start

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dating did you know half um get engaged at the same time we get asked to take on the location

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of one of our churches so we we were one church in a few locations around the country Malaysia

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Germany as well so we get asked to take on the Birmingham location while we're dating and so

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we spend a year traveling down every Sunday we do church in the morning and leads would travel

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every Sunday wow it's a really full on yeah um and we do Sunday nights in Birmingham and then we

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move a year later with another couple from leads um the year we're about to get married uh dexas

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from Birmingham so she moved back home I live at this couple we get married in the same year in 2016

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we take on a church and I'm living in a new city Birmingham all at once yeah which I probably

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wouldn't advise now but it happened and that's that's the way in which yeah we're old and so now we

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young with ministry we're building a canvas a location of our church and you know our churches

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for the young people it's fun it's crazy you know and just greatest days you know I'm and I'm

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learning I'm learning ministry hey I'm learning how to disciple how to lead how to teach how to

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preach how to figure out navigate tense moments and relationships and conversations and

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budgets and all the things they don't teach you about uh and it's fun and then COVID hits you

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know and then COVID obviously just massive you know it's crazy for everybody everywhere and um we

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decide um we want to pull out and have a bit of a bit of a respite and at the time we wanted to

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move to Australia you know we've been to Australia a few times and we loved it and but that you

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know felt probably like running away and and we didn't feel like the Lord was sending us there and

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so actually that was parked for a moment and and we then we then just ended up staying and and I

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took a job at the Astrid and Birmingham which was super restorative and just healing and you know

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just had just the most remarkable leaders around me and team around me and really it became a space

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that the Lord just did a new thing at me you know and I didn't know it I thought you know I didn't

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I didn't think I'd return I'd return to ministry it had been a few months but I you know I thought

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I was you know sort of taking a step back and I know I find that I'm just it's actually hard to run

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away um and so locked in you know I was looking after leadership at Gastrie and at the same time

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started our business the agency had a clothing brand and became an agency it's all just a few

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different things right and um it's just okay I'm pressing on and then we'll culminate

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keep going um and then we just you know a few years ago the ex-tensor me in the car we're driving

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out of London my co-founders 30th birthday and she says hey she'll be moved to London I was like what

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like it's so random anyway we spend months just thinking praying um things come to an end up

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in Birmingham and I'm now done in London quite a bit and then we end up moving 18 months ago we're

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just about to have a son our son Maximilian um he's born in 24 October and it's been 18 months now

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and we're plugged into new community and begs runs a healthcare business special thanks therapy

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and and now we're just now we're here I'm here I'm sorry for you guys I didn't think that would be

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happening it's I'm just how how these things end up so yeah there's there's a whole bunch of

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stuff in that you know which you can dig into or as you guys please but um it's been a ride I always

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say I've lived a thousand lives or we've lived a thousand lives say yeah wow wow dude that's so

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fascinating I want to I want to hear a bit more on you said that when you went to gastry it was

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like restorative and healing hmm what did that what did that look like and what was um I want I

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want to be honoring so um answer this as as you wish but what was what was that like specifically

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restoring and healing from yeah I think I think in my 20s in our 20s I think as as leaders millennial

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leaders up that's you know we I think we ran really hard and you know ministry was everything we

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we we we gave we gave everything to building and you know it was back to back it was conferences

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it was events large scale and then it was local discipleship and so I think I probably I probably

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was was was was tied I was bedtime and and I felt um looking back perhaps there were I don't know

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it felt like it felt like just a wild ride and that I was just depleted in some ways and so

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um suddenly I in you know start start working with the crew up at gastry and I know it just

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felt like it felt like a bit of a a different environment in in some ways it felt um

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it felt safe it felt like I had permission you know one thing Tim said to me I'll never forget

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this and and it just felt so releasing he said look like you don't have to prove yourself yeah

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yeah I don't know I don't know why that's so releasing that just hit me you know I think I think maybe

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our 20s were quite were all about performance and maybe the culture at the time is and I

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felt like I had to perform be at my best and and convey that and and always be good I suddenly

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felt permission in the simplest of terms just to to not have to prove myself and what came with that

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was actually if I'm struggling I can say hey hey I'm struggling and that was okay and and and I

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think that felt super restorative and it felt like I could just take take a breath and and ministry

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isn't easy anywhere or during any season um but I just felt there was just an environment that was

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yeah releasing and and and and one where I think you could you could bring who you are bring

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your gift and and and not maybe carry and I think maybe the load was shared as well

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massive team so I think there was previously I probably felt like I was carrying everything so low

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and so suddenly you know you have air and open holding up your arms you know when you're tired and

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that's what it felt like hmm that's so interesting because I don't I I don't feel like I know you

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as like an ambitious kind of like um sell sell everything to accomplish the goal type of person um

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but I feel like you're like one of the most gentle people I know and so um

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um I mean so we were talking about like being softhearted when he first came into the studios

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um I don't even know if I really have it like a question but I'm just like it's interesting

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that I don't I I have I guess seen you at the end of that process yeah um that's interesting

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but I guess like being being someone who's trying to figure out like ambition and and

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um kind of like not not pushing too hard but also wanting to succeed

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where where like how did you find that balance because that sounds like if I'm being real that

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sounds like a really like it sounds like a long process yeah uh Zach you know it is

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it's a it's a long process and and it's hard man I think

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I've always wondered about ambition you know and and healthy ambition and godly ambition and

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I wonder if if if we're surrounded by it more than we realize and I wonder if it's just disguised

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or dressed up you know I have this I have this article there recently um about the idol of humility

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and and how in our pursuit sometimes of humility we and I this is something I've just been thinking

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about how in our pursuit of humility sometimes we end up making an idol of it and and and we sort of

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just we're not actually showing up as as who God intended us to be in the name of humility

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and I don't have a conclusion or an answer on this but I'm just thinking about it is what does it

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look like to to to practice just on the subject of ambition godly humility and and and on

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on the subject of of the soft heart my favorite scripture is Proverbs 423 above all else

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God your heart for out of it flow the issues of life and and just thinking about this more you know

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this is like a father instructing his son about wisdom and in Hebrew thought heart is it is control

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is the control of the center of your life and so you will your thoughts your desires your

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direction the Lord says to protect that and so I read something recently just around how

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guarding your heart isn't becoming closed off it's about protecting the source of all your

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decisions your ambition your success disappointment so these things don't shape who you become

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and so I think I think that's my ambition is is to protect my heart so that these things that you

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describe don't shape me and don't shape us and we're not pursuing whatever it is right my definition

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of success your definition of it of success is going to be different and and you're right I think

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it takes time it perhaps is a lifelong process to constantly find your place where you're coming

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back to to the protection guarding your heart going your decisions your will your desires

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and and that tension of trying to climb a ladder and I think it's amplified in in London right you

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know I'm fresh yet but in 18 months gosh I can pick it up you know and sense the drive and the

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and I've moved in my mid 30s right we're not talking ages but you know I've moved at a time

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where I feel like in my 20s I you know I had to deal with a lot of that and it's you know even

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for you to pick up actually you're meeting me at on the other side of some of these things and I'm

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still a long way to go right but in your 20s I feel like you're sort of trying to you trying to

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prove yourself and you're trying to figure it out the moment I turned 30 there was just something

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that was just like I don't know like I don't have to prove myself anymore really yeah I am who I am

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I think and now it's just about identifying and recognizing where I where I fall short where I'm

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weak and I can go to the Lord of that and and strengthen where I'm strong to bring glory to God

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and um so so it's attention man it's it's it's a I think I think it's it's a process um I

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love that because like I hear so much people talking church but like lay this down lay that

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drop your like it almost feels like there's a narrative of like drop your dreams and goals

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by like that that language of it's a balance um yeah I think that's really good well I was just

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thinking like keeping a soft soft soft soft then still being soft like

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because you're saying like all these external things like our desires dreams or like ambition

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all of that like for that not to shape you I'm just thinking like that's so hard because like

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you have so many experiences through like let's say building a brand building this company all

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these things and like that's obviously going to shape you because you learn so much through it

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and like you're still going to be effectable to the the lessons that you learned through that

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and like whether that's good or bad I'm just thinking like a soft heart in that like um why you know

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I was sharing with you earlier on that I think I think my just my my revelation just this week

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regarding a few things that I've been thinking through and processing and dealing with in some

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decisions right and and personally a friend of mine said to me I you should feel a certain way

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about this you should feel you should feel I feel angry for you or whatever it is and and I just

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just dawned on me that in regards to the hard thing that I think I'm realizing and I realized

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that I feel like I can't afford it I can't afford to to be angry and to carry and

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and we were having this discussion not so long ago I think I think it you realize how much it costs

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in the long term when when we allow these things to to creep in to our spirit and our soul

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what sorry jumping in what does it cost hmm what have you actually found it cost time

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headspace I think it then ends up affecting my moments when I'm sat with people

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and over coffee or even a downtime at home I'm thinking about thinking about about this thing

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that I'm holding yeah and and I know I need to let go and it's really hard we talk about that

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just now it's it's really hard and and you know I was saying I'm not a medic I'm not a I'm not a

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scientist but I wonder if if if if this might just even take years or far lives like I think you

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see it in people and families are hardest thing right and I think you know people who know you

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and love you the most and you know you end up these the people that you know the relationship

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sometimes it can be the trickiest to to to navigate and and and I think it becomes yeah it

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becomes it becomes costly I feel to to harbor and to yeah I feel like I can't I just can't crack

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you know and I've got a million things you know I've got a young family now and and if I can

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create space in my life there are certain things that I've I just I can't be obsessed over

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and I can't think about how successful I am because everyone everyone around me is more successful

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than me if you know however we're defining success there's always someone doing better there's always

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somebody more ambitious there's always somebody's got a better opportunity there's always

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somebody who's buying the house where does it end and and I can find that exhausting and and I'm

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learning to to to to trust the Lord which it's hard I I don't want to sit you and just be like

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guys like this is how you do it yeah just trust God it's fine you know it's hard like yeah oh my

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gosh you know we're doing myself and a bunch of friends we're doing Exodus 90 which is all about

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asceticism and and choosing the hard thing saying no to the daily comforts and really it's just

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revealing it's revealing where I'm weak and I'm confronted every day by by the small comfort

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comfortable choices that I make you know like some of our disciplines are like taking a cold shy

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every day and and not having sugar and no screen time and scrolling and you know I look at my

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screen time in 20 last year 25 and I just I was like this is really bad it was just at an all-time

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high and I've got to be on my screen because of work and stuff like that but you know when you

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really sit down and you think about some of these um the places which we go to to to comfort ourselves

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where I know I should be going to prayer I should be going to the quiet place with Jesus and

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and and and I don't go there and I quickly recognize where I'm weak and and and and that's that's

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the journey of of just daily the daily disciplines and daily coming to the Lord and and in you miss

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some days you do of course you do you miss you miss two three days sometimes and then suddenly you're

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like ah that's it happens been time with the Lord yeah and and I think I think that's important

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and how is that how is that process of like learning how to keep a soft heart shaped you

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yeah it's it it hasn't been easy um and I think I do think about my grandmother again I think

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uh that woman was amazing you know I I knew her for nine years of my life and and I see I see her

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in my mother who again just just has a soft heart has has a grace and and I think I think

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fundamentally within me there's there is a leaning and a propensity to to I don't know to to

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take the low road and uh and uh you know you say gentle I don't know I've never felt gentle

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as I have to be honest but but thank you no no thank you um no it's I'm like you're so gentle I try um

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I've probably just yeah I've always found the Lord in his Ezekiel I had a scripture here

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in Ezekiel 36 26 um God is speaking to Israel and eggs are and he says I will I will give you a new heart

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and I'll and I'll put a new spirit in you I will take out your stony stubborn heart

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and give you a tender responsive heart and and that whole idea of of God giving these people giving

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us a new heart and and transforming us rather than a behavioral modification scenario I think

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just remembering that that the Lord has literally just taken a stubborn heart out of me a rebellious

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heart which sometimes I'm stubborn sometimes I'm rebellious right but but it's just going back

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and remembering God God you took this thing out of me and and and you literally gave me it went when

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when I said yes to you and and and every day since you've you've just been you've been pouring into

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me and refreshing my heart and refreshing my soul and keeping a tender and and I think I think my life

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my legacy my family generationally perhaps is dependent on my ability to remain soft

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because I think that the moment I go hard I think that affects more than just me you know suddenly

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I'm my son now is is looking at his father and he's thinking oh dad you know him

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interesting why what's going on there you know and I have to explain to him hey buddy like

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you know one day perhaps I don't know like this happened and this meant that you know which is fine

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but but I think I'm just recognizing that I'm trying to change the narrative personally in my own

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family and and I've always felt different I've always felt like I want to do the family thing well

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and and I think Michelle that just requires me to remain soft and and and not closed off and to

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remain open open-handed open-hearted it's vulnerable at times I feel at times maybe I've been

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too open-handed and you know I've just yeah it's a journey and like I was saying earlier I've got

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a lot of yeses behind me and the older you get the nose start to take start to become more than

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the yeses I think maybe because we realize I don't know like like right now you know you guys

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I said yes I said yes everything and I think rightfully so I think I think your 20s are about you

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know you just you jump in you say hey what do you guys do there say will you host this podcast

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yeah I sure will give that a go you know it's about having a go and and maybe at sometimes I

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probably just I probably still have that that muscle memory in me where I'm just like yes yes yes

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I realize I'm doing a million coffees and I'm spending a lot of time and and I don't know what that's

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taking away from there's always a give-and-take and I'm not great at you know like this is what I'm

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doing I'm sort of like yeah come on let's let's hang out I want to do that I want to be there for

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everybody but I'm just learning just good rhythms and I think you sort of need to because like you

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we're doing a lot of different things and I think trying to maintain just good health

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balance if we can use that word I don't know what that means either do I I guess you know

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especially in our city right we we just go go go go go and it's easy to be yeah this

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this might be the last thing we hit but I'm curious about is is is being soft not dangerous

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like that feels really dangerous to me because I mean in my mind especially like I see

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I mean I was talking like I I just saw Marty supreme last night

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yeah um but spoilers I know spoilers no spoilers but I think of movies where the main characters

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is pursuing their goal and it almost feels like if you're the soft one you're just gonna get beaten

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out and you're just gonna lose and then on top of that like I think that when you when you're

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the soft one who loses like it almost hurts you know what I mean because you're not accomplishing the

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goal and like I even see that in relationships like if you're the soft one like you've lost the

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relationship because you haven't gotten over the other person and those sorts of things and I'm kind

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of like like how would you how do you think about yeah that is it dangerous yeah winning and losing right

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yeah honestly Zach I think it's really hard man and I definitely I see where you're coming from

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you know sometimes sometimes I some days I do think you know nice guys are the ones that finish

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last you know I think you're tough sometimes sometimes sometimes for sure like and then I do see

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people winning right around me who you sort of just think you know like how how are you winning like

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you like I deserve you know you have these thoughts and you're this type of person and I'm this type

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of person and and and and I've got to say you've spoken into something that I'm that I'm

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challenging and challenging myself and and I'm challenged by and and I see the danger in in being

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softer I wonder what the difference is between being soft and having a soft heart and maybe

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well well well maybe you know yeah I think I think that's that's the question I I would I would

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raise as is being soft yeah versus versus having a soft heart and and what that means to what we do

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and how we approach what we do and you could look at the data you could look at the statistics that

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say people who are soft or you know they finish last or they don't win I don't know I'm sort of

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I'm I'm I'm saying Lord as well like how do you see this you know what is

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which where should we land as as as young Christians and and I think I just I do come back to

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Proverbs where where it says you know out of this thing flows everything and I think I think

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there's a degree of wisdom perhaps that comes with assessing the danger and a supernatural wisdom

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that we can call upon the name of Jesus for to to help us discern and that's the Holy Spirit I think

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as well for sure that's the role the Holy Spirit plays in our lives to help us discern and to

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and to figure out God is this dangerous is a dangerous for me to to be the soft one or to have a

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soft heart of this scenario or is it better for me to to guard this thing and to in a way that

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just protects my perspective and my decision making and I hear you on the relationships thing

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relationships friendships you know I I really value friendships I really value relationships I

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someone once said that I've got this resources in our relationships and that's not just materially

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I think just a lot of relationships can be life-giving but they can also take yeah and I think

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that's where the dangers and where the discernment needs to come in they could take more in some

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scenarios more than they can ever give and then some scenarios they can give more than they can

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ever take and so I was reading on sub-stack someone was talking about love like you just love right

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just choosing love and and and love being a choice and you do recognize how there is a daily

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practice you know of of choosing to love and what that looks like showing up and forgiving and

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working things out and and perhaps that is the area where you know this thing is tested the most

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and so I think there's a level of wisdom and and prayer that needs to that needs to constantly

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happen Zach I think I think one thread here is is consistency and it's it's going back to Jesus

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and well and communication and I think that helps keep your hearts soft is is not is not avoidance

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and not not talking but I think it's it's communication so I think like keeping a soft heart leads to

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obviously being quite vulnerable but let's say like in a relationship or with your friends

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kind of thing but that also creates a level of like connectivity with that person as well and I

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guess it's like like he said it's exercising wisdom in knowing how much to share what to share and

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like how to navigate difficult conversations and like I just think it's so it's so good to hear

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and it's actually really refreshing to hear that like actually it's a good thing to keep us off

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rather than you know have a hard and hard and be bruising and hurting people left-right and center

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like but like it's also refreshing to hear that it is costly and it's it can take a lot

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and like the other person might not get bruised because I've got a soft heart but I mind yeah and like

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00:42:58.060 --> 00:43:03.340
I guess it's trusting the Lord with our hearts as well isn't it in that um yeah

392
00:43:04.220 --> 00:43:09.340
I'm not really valuable thank you yeah pleasure no it's it's it's good to bounce around

393
00:43:10.300 --> 00:43:18.620
I think um and and it's an ongoing conversation and and and you learn every time

394
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every time you learn you think you take from a scenario what you need to take and you leave

395
00:43:25.100 --> 00:43:30.700
what you need to leave and it's not always black and white you know and I think I look back

396
00:43:30.700 --> 00:43:35.100
on the last 15 years of my life I've every time I've been learning you make a mental note

397
00:43:35.100 --> 00:43:39.740
you cool okay I learned that there now this week I'm learning something new you know I'm learning

398
00:43:39.740 --> 00:43:46.620
about I actually kind of forward to to even go there in my mind because this is the ramification

399
00:43:46.620 --> 00:43:53.740
of that you know and and you think okay that's that's how to do that okay let's you know let's

400
00:43:53.740 --> 00:43:58.700
let's move on what's what's the next thing and so there's just there's constantly lessons and you'll

401
00:43:58.700 --> 00:44:07.580
find this and and and we're constantly being shaped constantly yeah yeah yeah we we just don't

402
00:44:07.580 --> 00:44:14.380
arrive yeah you know there's no was again I remember saying a bar in another podcast is like

403
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you don't graduate the grass ever mmm who's god for that praise Jesus yeah yeah how boring would

404
00:44:21.100 --> 00:44:27.900
it be if we had like made it yeah but you know sometimes our flesh desires that sometimes

405
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:36.300
our flesh desires to make it and to arrive and to and I don't know I don't know what that feels like

406
00:44:36.300 --> 00:44:40.460
as like you have to assess and be like okay what have I made an idol in my life that I've like

407
00:44:40.460 --> 00:44:50.220
gone and actually yeah thought for a second that I've made it yeah yeah yeah I hope I never feel

408
00:44:50.300 --> 00:44:56.540
what that feels like because that to me seems dangerous that is dangerous for sure well dude I

409
00:44:56.540 --> 00:45:03.100
mean you've you've helped us out on our journey just in this last like half hour 45 minutes so we

410
00:45:03.100 --> 00:45:09.180
really really appreciate you coming on I feel like we could just keep talking it out all all day come

411
00:45:09.180 --> 00:45:15.180
on but I think we're gonna cut it there but we appreciate you coming in and and and I think

412
00:45:15.180 --> 00:45:21.420
that's gonna wrap up our episode for today so guys thank you so much for watching and we hope

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you were blessed by what Tebo shared and we really hope you'll join us on the next podcast hope

414
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you have a great day see you later yeah