WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.000 Before we do a sweet intro, I want to do an even sweeter intro and I would love to hear about Trash's snack of the day 2 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:11.960 But before we do that Trash, I think you've been prompting a little too much because I think I just caught you prompting right now 3 00:00:12.460 --> 00:00:15.840 Right before this they get it to a slack message at work, okay? 4 00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:22.400 What the dude you were spawned manually to slack messages 5 00:00:23.500 --> 00:00:25.500 1987 calls 6 00:00:25.500 --> 00:00:28.900 I just realized I'm the only one in this group that has a real job 7 00:00:31.180 --> 00:00:33.180 But us real people 8 00:00:33.180 --> 00:00:37.180 Dude, okay, I'm not gonna let you guys when people say that to me on Twitter 9 00:00:37.180 --> 00:00:41.940 It does that that's how you can one guy me pretty good is saying that I'm just like mold 10 00:00:41.940 --> 00:00:43.940 Oh 11 00:00:48.980 --> 00:00:55.940 XOR posted the one of the guys who does shaders like you know this cool. Yeah, XOR is extra dev shout out 12 00:00:55.940 --> 00:00:56.940 XOR dev 13 00:00:56.940 --> 00:01:03.420 I and and he posted a poll that that was like how how is is it making your job more or less competitive? 14 00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:04.940 I think was he was asking 15 00:01:04.940 --> 00:01:09.300 So I was like where's the option for don't have real job don't know and you know 16 00:01:09.380 --> 00:01:14.580 So I'm okay with it. I you can't one guy me that way. I did you sense it about this prime 17 00:01:16.060 --> 00:01:20.900 It yeah, I am obviously I'm triggered. Okay, just let it go 18 00:01:21.420 --> 00:01:29.580 It's fair. I mean it's a ton of work doing like content stuff so much work that like it's more work than most normal jobs 19 00:01:29.580 --> 00:01:32.520 So like I don't know why people wouldn't think it's a job 20 00:01:32.520 --> 00:01:37.880 But well the thing that that thing that works me the most is that I internally put on timelines on myself 21 00:01:38.160 --> 00:01:42.440 And I try to build as much as possible so I'm not like a dummy when it comes to programming 22 00:01:42.440 --> 00:01:47.800 Yeah, and so you know, I'm learning I'm learning Odin right now having a great time. It's just like 23 00:01:50.880 --> 00:01:56.800 There's I know there's just like a couple things that get me and that's just one of those just I don't know why I got to let it go 24 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:01.040 Fortunately, you only told us prime and not anybody else 25 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:05.600 So that's not everyone's really gonna bring this up every day. Here's the thing though 26 00:02:05.600 --> 00:02:10.600 I'm sorry your program. You're learning to do what I never heard. I don't know what you're talking about. I 27 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:19.400 Don't ever see an article about that in any that's not a lot of publication Odin 28 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:23.720 I'm sorry. I like is that that's like some god. I think I looked it up 29 00:02:24.600 --> 00:02:30.160 I'm actually trying to figure out this whole God situation. Okay, so I'm starting with Odin. You know the Norse fruits 30 00:02:31.040 --> 00:02:38.480 Yeah, quick point of contention. Does that make Odin the Norse god a notable character is in our is Wikipedia saying he's real like can't 31 00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:45.960 Odin the language be a fictitious programming language created out of thin air by ginger bill right? 32 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:53.680 I don't know. I just need to know if wired magazine has ever talked about the the Norse god Odin if they have then I'm told that he 33 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:57.160 Probably exists. That's what I would say anyway. Believe it 34 00:02:57.160 --> 00:03:02.320 And he's probably and he's probably notable that right? I would assume he's notable. Yeah 35 00:03:02.920 --> 00:03:09.800 If some wired magazine author talked about their their imaginary friend when they were 12 then that's notable because hey 36 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:11.800 They wrote it in wired magazine 37 00:03:11.800 --> 00:03:13.800 Man the power that's 38 00:03:14.040 --> 00:03:19.320 Why are they going to circle back really quick on the real job thing that trash brought up 39 00:03:19.320 --> 00:03:24.240 I was just saying trash if you want we can help you join the rest of us 40 00:03:27.160 --> 00:03:32.120 Yeah, that's true and I also would like to throw out there trash is the only person with a real job 41 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:40.040 Why are you here during the work day? Yeah, that is a good good question T.J. I you're trying to make me join you 42 00:03:41.480 --> 00:03:46.600 What's your what's your current slack status? I just want to know what is your current status is it green? 43 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:49.240 This is the worst I hate when we bring up my truck 44 00:03:49.880 --> 00:03:52.680 It says out of office until 11 30 45 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:54.680 Thank you 46 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:58.800 So 30 is for the podcast that's every day 47 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:03.560 podcast 48 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:06.520 I make up for this time though. I make sure I work extra hard for an hour and a half 49 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:12.040 Don't worry trash the recording is going they they know it's happening. Yeah, I hate the trash 50 00:04:12.040 --> 00:04:17.240 Everyone I know is apparently when you show up in office they're like yo, it's trash from the standout 51 00:04:17.400 --> 00:04:20.600 Hey, is that HTTP get that out of here? 52 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:26.440 That's that how we order coffee we order coffee by a SSH terminal dot shop. Yeah, you want a real experience 53 00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:31.080 You want real coffee you want awesome subscriptions, so you never have to remember again 54 00:04:31.320 --> 00:04:39.160 Oh, you want exclusive blends with exclusive coffee and exclusive content then check out cron you don't know what SSH is 55 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:42.120 Well, maybe the coffee is not for you 56 00:04:51.400 --> 00:04:53.400 Not myself conscious 57 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:58.280 I'm gonna work so hard today. Okay. Oh, you're gonna problem. It's so good. You're gonna open up 58 00:05:00.200 --> 00:05:03.640 Oh, I got kick off an agent. So I don't feel so bad about being yeah, yeah, kick one off 59 00:05:04.760 --> 00:05:09.240 All right, Tratch, what's the snack of the day? You got to give us a little bit of the snack of the day. This is my blocker right now 60 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.320 I have these giggles which are like a healthy version of skittles 61 00:05:15.880 --> 00:05:19.000 No thing and then you have to go healthy because you wait too many snacks 62 00:05:19.880 --> 00:05:23.160 Well, my wife is like very much into like anti-food dye stuff 63 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:27.160 So this is like the candy you can get that doesn't have like the food dyes and my daughter's like allergic to some of that stuff 64 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:31.240 So we're very okay, we're very like I'll learn about that and then we have these like Easter candy things 65 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:33.800 Some and these gummies 66 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:37.960 He has risen. Yes, and then I got or choose because I want to get breakfast right before this 67 00:05:37.960 --> 00:05:42.360 I just got here right on time. I got a quick workout in got my quick pump 68 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:47.000 Eat a pancake and then spit on home. Do you eat any 69 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:49.800 non-carbohydrate foods 70 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:55.800 I don't know I can try not to yes 71 00:05:57.400 --> 00:05:59.400 You eat 72 00:05:59.400 --> 00:06:05.240 I'm like a big steak guy. Okay, so you do we oh by the way, we do need an update. This is true trash 73 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:10.200 The receipts how are they going? How's your wife doing? What what kind of things have you been? 74 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:18.280 It's really funny that you bring that up. It sounds like it. I use it specific. I use it for myself 75 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:21.160 I use it for myself now 76 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:23.480 So I could just like tell my wife what I'm doing the laundry 77 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:29.560 And so I have a huge list of just laundry so then whenever something comes up 78 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:32.440 I'm just going to pop it out. I don't know. So you have a laundry list 79 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:38.200 Literally, especially what you made was a self promotion a household self promotion 80 00:06:38.280 --> 00:06:43.720 I have converted it to making me look good. Yep. That's smart trash. That's smart 81 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:48.600 And I'm not bringing it up. I'm not bringing it up. It's just when something happens. I'm gonna be like check this out 82 00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:53.640 Check out all this laundry I did hit the scroll and then scroll all the way baby 83 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:57.880 So that's how I've been doing it. She has a bunch on me actually, which is not a good thing. But it's okay 84 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:02.920 All right, all right. It's okay. What about on your side? Are you still getting receded? Okay 85 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:07.880 Trash I went to the truth. I went to my wife and we talked about it 86 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:12.280 And she said I'm not going to use receipts because it's too toxic 87 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.360 I'm so shy as woman 88 00:07:17.640 --> 00:07:19.640 Wait a second though. Wait a second 89 00:07:20.440 --> 00:07:25.000 Should I destroy prime that to me sounds like 90 00:07:25.880 --> 00:07:30.840 Trash just needs to work on the PR because that to me sounds like a reluctant 91 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:34.760 I'm not going to use it like I wanted to use this to document 92 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:38.280 Oh the crap that you're doing prime 93 00:07:38.520 --> 00:07:44.760 But I don't want to do it because it sounds a little too bad. So if if like if Trash changes the messaging to like 94 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:47.720 Help your husband become a better 95 00:07:48.280 --> 00:07:50.280 Right come along side 96 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:52.920 On his journey to adulthood 97 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:59.880 Trash just needs PR he needs a PR we need to spin this for him and then this thing has go into the moon man 98 00:07:59.960 --> 00:08:01.880 I've already moved on to my next 99 00:08:02.200 --> 00:08:04.200 unethical thing 100 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:09.400 I started building a bot army so I can get Pokemon cards 101 00:08:11.880 --> 00:08:13.880 I've been working on it 102 00:08:14.280 --> 00:08:16.280 It's actually so complicated 103 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:23.000 I love that you're building this trash because you're building it for good purposes so that you can actually just get 104 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:25.960 Pokemon's yourself without getting into a fist fight at a machine 105 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:30.040 The good guy, but don't you become the bad guy once you're using a bot army? 106 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.800 Well, I'm not making like a so like typically these boss people 107 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:40.600 I can't even make that many because there's like a lot of complicated reasons 108 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:43.800 But I'm just gonna make a handful just to like up my chances slightly 109 00:08:43.800 --> 00:08:50.520 It's not gonna actually trash. I have a MacBook mini. I will let you I will let you use it if you want to use it until you can get at least 110 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:52.760 I will use it trash 111 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:55.720 You write stuff that gets deployed on every Netflix computer right 112 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:02.840 Dude try to be heard a spinnaker 113 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:12.840 There's this like Nintendo has to shut off like all of Netflix's ip's because all of a sudden 114 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:16.040 It's just like this massive like Pokemon buying spree 115 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:21.800 Just wait till this wall gets super high. That's when you're gonna know my bots working is working. Yep. All right 116 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:27.000 That's what you know. Can is there any possibility we could intro? We could actually start 117 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:34.040 Welcome to the stand-up today. We have an extremely special episode for everybody that's washing the stand-up for those that don't know 118 00:09:34.040 --> 00:09:37.160 This is the world's most attended stand-up 119 00:09:38.040 --> 00:09:41.960 Congratulations everyone for being a part of it. I hope everybody has their blockers. They're ready 120 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:44.600 Yep, thank you. Thank you 121 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:50.760 Still up paid still up paid the interns are always unpaid 122 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:56.120 But you guys the things is that I love you with the love of a CEO. Okay. I just want you to know that right now 123 00:09:56.760 --> 00:10:03.960 I was talking about valuable work experience that someday could land you a paying job right 124 00:10:05.560 --> 00:10:07.560 Someday you guys will get paid 125 00:10:08.520 --> 00:10:10.520 Just not here 126 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:17.560 So don't get some coffee. Yeah, go give me some coffee. All right now today are very special episode 127 00:10:17.640 --> 00:10:22.920 It has to do Casey. I was absolutely fascinated with some of the tweets you were making because windows 11 128 00:10:23.560 --> 00:10:27.720 Actually, well to be fair. We got to back this up a little bit about a couple of months ago 129 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:31.720 Satya released a note of intent saying that windows 130 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:40.600 Here's you we are going to win back the consumer is exactly what he said and the first major patch since that announcement 131 00:10:40.760 --> 00:10:47.400 Just came out and that exact patch contained a new and improved windows run dialogue 132 00:10:47.640 --> 00:10:53.960 And so this is a part of their major push to make performance more top of mind at least that is what windows 11 133 00:10:54.280 --> 00:10:57.400 Explicitly said and as part of their announcement they said 134 00:10:57.800 --> 00:11:02.920 This is the fastest that the run dialogue has ever been ever 135 00:11:03.640 --> 00:11:06.200 Evie are like this is the best it has ever been 136 00:11:06.680 --> 00:11:08.680 Here we go and they 137 00:11:08.680 --> 00:11:13.960 Announced it and it takes approximately 90 milliseconds to show on screen on the median 138 00:11:14.040 --> 00:11:17.720 So the 50 percentile so we don't know what we don't know what like the 25th percentile 139 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.040 We don't know the quartiles here. So we have no idea what's going on 140 00:11:20.280 --> 00:11:24.280 But we do know that the median is 90 approximately 90 milliseconds 141 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:31.160 It was 94 I think might have been what they said yeah, I don't know how they measure that that seems really impressive considering most displays don't 142 00:11:32.280 --> 00:11:35.800 You know, they're usually locked to some number that probably doesn't land on 94 every time 143 00:11:35.800 --> 00:11:38.120 I don't exactly know how they're measuring that but nonetheless 144 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:39.800 That's what they're saying 145 00:11:39.800 --> 00:11:45.160 Absolutely impressed with this performance, but then Casey you did a little bit of snooping 146 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:50.200 I did so I actually didn't uh, so I 147 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:56.360 I really didn't I didn't care because like I said, I don't use windows really like any more week 148 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:58.360 We kind of we kind of nixed that 149 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:05.640 Uh pun intended and uh, so like I'm just like it's a it's kind of just a like all right you guys you know 150 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:11.080 You can do your rodeo now or you decide to try and make windows performing or whatever. That's fine 151 00:12:11.880 --> 00:12:14.040 um, but 152 00:12:14.040 --> 00:12:16.040 What I was gonna say is 153 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:20.600 Originally, I only saw this because Tim Swini was commenting on it 154 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:27.960 I think he was said something snide like you know, it's he said it was 94 milliseconds for this you know 155 00:12:28.040 --> 00:12:33.560 Performance top of mind rewrite. It's like a gaming monitor is like you know eight milliseconds to refresh a frame like what's go 156 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:35.720 You know what's going on 157 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.480 Um, and so the only thing I really did was just retreat. I'm like okay 158 00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:44.600 Popping up the run dialogue like is is like a drop to 10 fps right 159 00:12:45.560 --> 00:12:50.760 Because that's what you know, it's like 11 fps. I think would be if you rounded 94 milliseconds 160 00:12:50.760 --> 00:12:53.320 It'd be like it'd be you know be like 10.6 161 00:12:54.040 --> 00:12:56.520 Frames a second or something if that's was your run rate 162 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:00.760 And nobody cared about the run dialogue for the most part 163 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:08.360 Pretty much people just cared about the fact that I used it fps as a way to like explain what the number was 164 00:13:09.160 --> 00:13:13.000 Now remind you I'm not posting anything original here at all 165 00:13:13.160 --> 00:13:17.800 I literally just like here is the screenshot of the thing that Tim Swini posted 166 00:13:18.760 --> 00:13:26.840 Or was replying to rather um, and I'm just like and I highlighted it and I was like they were like perftop of mind 94 milliseconds 167 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:29.080 and I was like 168 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:33.000 Geez like that'd be really split like 94 milliseconds is is a long time 169 00:13:33.560 --> 00:13:37.240 Especially because like when you think about what the run dialogue is 170 00:13:37.800 --> 00:13:43.240 It's not really like it's it's a user interface interaction. Well you hold on right there Casey 171 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:49.160 There's processes that they have to create well, I don't know what a process is but apparently it takes 90 milliseconds 172 00:13:49.560 --> 00:13:52.680 Yeah, so this was this was the thing um, where they were like 173 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:58.680 Uh, a lot of people just had a problem with this and a lot of people's probably the wrong term like most 174 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:04.120 You know, it was a very popular tweet actually so I suppose most people didn't have a problem with what I said um 175 00:14:05.560 --> 00:14:10.920 But for the people who did have a problem with that there were two things one is they were like well this is like you know 176 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.000 Loading it's like how long so it takes to load 177 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:18.600 Which to me is ridiculous because it's like no it's like a text box and maybe some history 178 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:21.880 There's no there shouldn't be any loading like this should just be 179 00:14:22.520 --> 00:14:28.040 It's a trivial it's you're talking about like 4k or something of data that should be required to do this thing 180 00:14:28.520 --> 00:14:34.680 Like it's so minimal that you there's no question you shouldn't be launching your process for this in my mind right 181 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:40.920 Maybe if you have some kind of weird process isolation thing going on because you're scared that someone's hacking your run dialogue 182 00:14:40.920 --> 00:14:45.400 But then at that point we should talk about why that's happening exactly and other things like that 183 00:14:45.400 --> 00:14:50.280 But you know there's a whole sort of thing so you could come back with some blog post where you explained like 184 00:14:50.760 --> 00:14:54.200 Here's why it has to be a process and maybe I'd be like okay 185 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:59.000 But in general no like that should not be if the user doesn't perceive them to be loading something 186 00:14:59.160 --> 00:15:02.920 Then that's not really acceptable excuse a so I didn't think anyone who replied with that 187 00:15:03.400 --> 00:15:08.600 I don't think they have any leg to stand on so sorry like I just completely disagree with you. This is not a load operation 188 00:15:09.800 --> 00:15:15.400 But that was relatively minor that was I felt like that was just as you as you folks say and as the kids say that was just 189 00:15:15.400 --> 00:15:18.360 Cope that was just like trying to come up with another 94 was some cope 190 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:23.400 Yeah, um a little bit of cope and also launching notes so you can use react that's all 191 00:15:23.800 --> 00:15:27.160 The bigger the bigger thing was um 192 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:30.600 Was they didn't like the use of fps? 193 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:35.240 I and this to me is like I can 194 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:41.960 If you if you don't want to use fps as a way to like talk about how things 195 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:44.600 Feel and how long they take right 196 00:15:45.400 --> 00:15:52.040 That's totally valid in my opinion meaning I would never go to somebody who quoted milliseconds and say whoa whoa 197 00:15:52.280 --> 00:15:54.760 Sun you should be saying fps 198 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.240 I wouldn't do this house 199 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:01.720 In this house we measure with fps exactly like I would never I would never do that 200 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.200 If I did that to somebody and they were like dude 201 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:10.920 I quote these things in milliseconds. That's how I do it. I'd be like ah sorry like I was yeah 202 00:16:10.920 --> 00:16:13.400 I was mean to dick. I shouldn't have done that or whatever right like that 203 00:16:13.640 --> 00:16:15.800 I would feel bad about that if I did that right 204 00:16:16.920 --> 00:16:18.680 Not so with these people these super like 205 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.680 You cannot quote fps numbers unless apparently 206 00:16:23.400 --> 00:16:27.400 Um because some there's some like internet committee that like must have decided this 207 00:16:28.040 --> 00:16:35.400 fps has to be average fps. Yes, it's it is it's so casey you may not know this but if in a video game in a video game 208 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:37.980 If you fire a gun, but you only fire it once 209 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:42.120 It takes 90 milliseconds. That's just part of that's just hey that's just loading 210 00:16:42.680 --> 00:16:45.400 It only counts if you repetitively fire it 211 00:16:46.040 --> 00:16:50.360 And again like people were mad though casey because the run 212 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:57.880 Thing is kind of like you know anthropic sort of started the trend everything's a game engine casey 213 00:16:58.280 --> 00:17:00.280 Well, so it's like they were 214 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:04.120 So I don't know it's not a fair fps measure okay 215 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:08.760 All I'm saying is so it what I would say is 216 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:14.200 If that's the way you want to quote things that's totally fine because I like having both 217 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:18.840 My preference is to see both so I like to see the 218 00:17:19.560 --> 00:17:28.120 milliseconds and then I like to convert that to fps in my head so I can see like if I was hitting monitor refresh because the way that I usually like to program 219 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:36.280 Anything that's like a user interaction is I like to hit monitor refresh for like what I expect the target monitor refresh to be 220 00:17:36.600 --> 00:17:40.760 So if someone pushes a button then like from the time that that button comes in 221 00:17:41.320 --> 00:17:43.800 I want to try on the frame that it came in 222 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:49.160 I want to try to have the response to it on the frame that's submitted at that time right 223 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:55.880 So you push a button on one frame and the next frame that you see as quote like should have it now sometimes 224 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:59.400 It's two frames because like there's a compositor in the way 225 00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:06.280 Sometimes it's more if the tv sucks and it's buffering a lot so it's like there's reasons why that can start to multiply out 226 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:10.200 But the way I like to think of it is like okay at least for the code 227 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:20.360 Like you know for telemetry which I assume is where this number is coming from if you timed from like when the the event happens and when someone actually got a frame 228 00:18:20.760 --> 00:18:26.920 I want to see something close to monitor refresh or twice monitor refresh depending on what you're counting there right 229 00:18:27.800 --> 00:18:29.000 um 230 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:34.600 And so this is actually legitimate the way I think about it like like like that was not I think people were saying or were 231 00:18:35.080 --> 00:18:36.360 trying to 232 00:18:36.360 --> 00:18:40.760 Impune to me the fact that I was trying to make it sound worse than it is by using fps 233 00:18:41.560 --> 00:18:45.000 And I guess what I would say is that is like no ant or yes and no 234 00:18:45.560 --> 00:18:48.600 I I do think of it that way and yes 235 00:18:48.600 --> 00:18:54.520 I suppose the reason I use that number is because I actually believe it's bad like when you're not getting monitor refresh that 236 00:18:54.520 --> 00:18:56.600 I think you did something wrong probably right 237 00:18:56.600 --> 00:19:00.200 It's like especially if it's just I'm popping up a text box or some UI thing 238 00:19:00.760 --> 00:19:04.520 I just think you did something wrong you should you should be it monitor refresh just period 239 00:19:05.320 --> 00:19:08.440 And if you don't agree with that that's fine like you can just be like no 240 00:19:08.520 --> 00:19:11.240 I like my things to be more more laggy than that um 241 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:13.720 You can totally make an argument that uh you just don't care 242 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:19.320 You're like look a hundred milliseconds is what I think is reasonable for response to UI. So that's what I do 243 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:21.560 Uh totally fine too 244 00:19:21.560 --> 00:19:25.480 But like claiming that fps is a bad way to do it. I totally disagree 245 00:19:25.560 --> 00:19:31.720 I think fps is a very good way for someone to have in their head like oh am I close to monitor refresh like I know 246 00:19:31.800 --> 00:19:41.400 I should be hitting 60 it's just a good like metric to have and if you want me to convert that so I always say 16.6666666666666666667 247 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:49.160 Instead six I suppose I can say that for you did did that help if I change it from fps to hurts what like I mean 248 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.040 Well cycles per second presumably they'd say again it has to be average for some reason 249 00:19:52.040 --> 00:19:55.960 I don't know why those are not intrinsic to the measurement frames per second 250 00:19:55.960 --> 00:20:01.560 Just means you took account of frames and you divided by a time right and it does not imply that there was 251 00:20:01.560 --> 00:20:03.560 Any more than even one actually 252 00:20:04.280 --> 00:20:08.200 Technically, you probably need to have two to measure something between but like you know 253 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.280 So anyway, I found all of that ridiculous and 254 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:16.680 Very disheartening because it's just I I was like this is ridiculous 255 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:25.800 All of that all of this for something that as far as I can tell isn't actually relevant anyway like because 256 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:28.680 Uh for a couple reasons 257 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:30.680 But here's the first one 258 00:20:30.760 --> 00:20:36.840 They said in that same post that the original run dialogue experience was 104 milliseconds 259 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:43.880 And the thing they were really yeah was 94 milliseconds. That's what they said in the post right no 260 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:48.280 No, no, not not not not that post right. I thought it was 400 milliseconds. I can't be real 261 00:20:48.360 --> 00:20:53.160 No, it was in them in the blog post that I saw I think it was 104 from on microsoft blog 262 00:20:53.240 --> 00:21:00.200 They were like the original one was 104 this one's like 94 or something like that or 98 or I don't like I don't know the exact numbers 263 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:06.600 But they were both very close to 100 like one was less than 110 the other was less than 100 right so between 90 and 100 264 00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:12.520 I remember half of the measurements are above 100 or above 94 to remember that's just the median 265 00:21:12.840 --> 00:21:14.840 Well, sorry. Yeah, well, I'm just saying 266 00:21:14.840 --> 00:21:21.240 So um, I was curious about that because I was like I don't know how they're measuring it right because there's different ways you can measure it 267 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.560 If you're if you're talking about like a latency chain 268 00:21:24.360 --> 00:21:26.840 Where you press a physical button and then see something 269 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:32.440 It's pretty easy to get a response time to go up to something like a hundred milliseconds 270 00:21:32.840 --> 00:21:39.720 If you have slow mouse slow USB processing the operating systems a little slow your code is a little slow 271 00:21:40.120 --> 00:21:45.000 The monitor buffer several or the GPU is buffering several frames the monitors buffering some more frames 272 00:21:45.320 --> 00:21:51.160 I could construct a situation where some code that responded potentially like like my little piece 273 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:52.680 Of code that responds 274 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:57.960 Instantly still is taking a hundred milliseconds because everyone else in the chain is screwing me right 275 00:21:58.040 --> 00:22:01.080 This is a thing that people who have ever measured latency with like a camera 276 00:22:01.560 --> 00:22:08.840 No, you can easily start to beef that up right yeah, or you've ever actually played a game on a TV set to non gaming mode 277 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:13.400 And all of a sudden you can you can feel it when you're playing Mario. You're like oh, what is happening? 278 00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:18.840 Am I I can't jump anymore? That's why I'm loses in games. That's actually why I've been on TV mode 279 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:21.800 I didn't know that I've been on TV mode. I didn't know that. That's why I lost a fortnight 280 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:25.400 Yeah, we used to watch a lot of TVs 281 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:29.640 Yeah, when he used to do that doc when he used to be doc dr. Disrespect and do that channel 282 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:37.240 He had to stop playing competitive games and treat create this primogen thing specifically because of this you know 283 00:22:37.320 --> 00:22:40.120 Teed he had a TV that was buffering too many frames. He couldn't win anymore 284 00:22:40.520 --> 00:22:43.880 There's Call of Duty career went down the toilet and here we are on the standup 285 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:47.960 But that's ancient history now no sense dwelling on the past the point is 286 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:50.680 Um, so I don't know where they get this number 287 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:54.120 Right. I don't think Casey knows. We'll just keep on going 288 00:22:55.320 --> 00:23:00.680 He let's just say hit the end of his career as a oh, yeah, no, it was not that no 289 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:06.920 Yeah, yeah, it was let's say that it 290 00:23:08.600 --> 00:23:10.600 Anyways drive 291 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:14.040 It was not minecraft, but anyway, um, the point is 292 00:23:14.520 --> 00:23:20.440 Uh, when we uh look at these kind of numbers. Who knows how they're measured right like nobody knows right 293 00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:23.160 Um, because they weren't discussed 294 00:23:23.320 --> 00:23:29.160 So we know that they were statistical meaning they said it was like a median so meaning 295 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:33.320 We we know that they were talking cross a number of machines right 296 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:39.080 Uh, a number of configurations probably meaning it's telemetry meaning it probably comes from end user machines 297 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:43.400 But it's hard to say because again, I don't I don't know exactly what their setup is for doing this 298 00:23:44.280 --> 00:23:52.520 But I was curious about that because I was like, you know that sounds really high actually from my recollection of the run dialogue 299 00:23:52.600 --> 00:23:56.360 I was like I don't think it takes a hundred and four milliseconds 300 00:23:56.920 --> 00:23:59.720 From end of click to showing the run dialogue 301 00:24:00.600 --> 00:24:02.920 On unlike windows 10 for example 302 00:24:03.320 --> 00:24:06.840 That by the way, this is a very important part because remember the post said this is the fastest 303 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:09.240 ever 304 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:16.840 Right which it may well be as to mean forever. It does mean forever, which is right which is uh, which good point is what I'm trying to get to 305 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:22.920 So the part that confused me was I was like where did that number come from so like on the on windows 10 306 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:27.240 I tried testing the existing run dialogue which obviously is not the updated one 307 00:24:28.040 --> 00:24:33.160 And I did a 60 hertz capture now. I know that 60 hertz will make people very uncomfortable 308 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:42.200 So what I mean to say is a capture where the frames were capped to 16.66666666667 milliseconds 309 00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:48.280 How many cases is that in uh Deca frames per hour? That's my concern 310 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:52.120 That's the only unit that I prefer discussing so just 311 00:24:52.520 --> 00:24:57.240 What is the 60 in 60 is a per an hour um, I don't know 312 00:24:58.520 --> 00:25:01.720 So uh, so I captured it and captured a bunch of me 313 00:25:02.280 --> 00:25:07.320 Running their you know doing the run dialogue and just to see what it was and it always responded in two frames 314 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:12.280 Which would be you know somewhere in the 30 millisecond range depending on 315 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:15.720 Again, if you were trying to include mouse clicks or something. I don't know 316 00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:21.080 But assuming you were doing telemetry from a machine then you can't do that because you don't have a high-speed camera sitting on it 317 00:25:21.080 --> 00:25:26.600 So I'm assuming they're recording something like that and so I don't so I don't know now 318 00:25:27.080 --> 00:25:31.480 So if they're using um that number 104 as a median 319 00:25:31.800 --> 00:25:38.360 Well, I tested this on a machine that's a decade old. It's nine years old, right? So it's a very old machine 320 00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:45.240 What are they testing across such that they're able to get a number that's three times higher than that as the median right? 321 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:49.160 I don't know and since I don't know now. I have no idea what's going on 322 00:25:49.560 --> 00:25:52.280 So I don't know where the 100 millisecond number goes 323 00:25:52.840 --> 00:25:56.920 A comes from but the reason I say this might just be much to do about nothing 324 00:25:57.640 --> 00:25:59.000 is because 325 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:06.200 If that number is similarly inflated and the 94 is similarly inflated the actual number for a response time might be much better 326 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:10.760 It might be that number divided by three which would again be two frames, which is fine right? 327 00:26:11.800 --> 00:26:15.640 Um much much better than the uh, you know 328 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:20.600 drastically increased three times latency one that it sounded like it was going to be which everyone 329 00:26:20.600 --> 00:26:23.000 I think would have been correct kind of freak out about because like 330 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:28.440 They're all used in experience where it's one or two frames to pop up that run dialog and now it's taking three times longer 331 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:30.440 That would be annoying 332 00:26:30.520 --> 00:26:35.160 So I I really don't know what's going on here. I feel like they needed to um 333 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:41.080 If they were going to make a post about performance and they didn't want people to comment on it 334 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:45.080 They needed to put more information in there that would be clearer about what's going on 335 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:53.400 And also blaming people for having a reaction to this especially when they just quote the like they just put a quote and be like 336 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:59.400 I think what I said is am I reading this right? That's what I said to get really mad at someone who said am I reading this right? 337 00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:03.720 This sounds really slow is ridiculous like that's what makes x so crap 338 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.440 the only response to that should be 339 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:13.400 Uh, either yes, you're reading it right. This is kind of slow for popping up a run dialog because that shouldn't really be any work or 340 00:27:14.120 --> 00:27:16.120 Yes, you were reading it wrong 341 00:27:16.360 --> 00:27:24.360 Actually that hundred milliseconds is this really bad way we measure it where we measure it from the start of the click to when we show it 342 00:27:24.600 --> 00:27:27.880 And since we can't launch to the person releases the mouse button 343 00:27:28.120 --> 00:27:32.040 That's an extra 50 milliseconds that's just padded on there right like 344 00:27:33.080 --> 00:27:40.760 That is the answer to this not some snide like you can't use epi like it's just it was garbage like I really didn't like the responses that I felt like they were 345 00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.000 Ridiculous and so like I'm pretty I'm pretty thumbs down on what people said 346 00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:49.960 That is my annoyance with it the happy news though is I think I think 347 00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:56.440 Uh, what's going to happen is the run dialog will probably be fine um, I can't say for sure 348 00:27:56.840 --> 00:28:03.800 But I think these numbers are not like they're not measuring either what we think we're they're measuring or they somewhere in 349 00:28:04.600 --> 00:28:07.000 Their test suite have 10,000 350 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:16.920 Really old buggy laptops that take an extra 70 milliseconds to do this operation and they're skewing the median or something right like like some explanation like that 351 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:19.080 So until we get more information 352 00:28:19.080 --> 00:28:25.320 I think this is just a dead issue except for the fact that people out there who think fps isn't a good way to intuit response times 353 00:28:25.320 --> 00:28:26.840 I think you're totally wrong 354 00:28:26.840 --> 00:28:32.040 I they're okay. I got to jump in case he's so there is something about all of this that you're really missing 355 00:28:32.040 --> 00:28:35.960 And I would just like to I would love to hear trash is a pinion on this one which is 356 00:28:36.600 --> 00:28:42.360 Trash you've worked at Netflix now since the great fall like trash joined and Netflix dropped by 60% 357 00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:44.680 Uh effectively is what happened 358 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.920 That was 70% anyways, they heard that he was coming 359 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:55.320 Yeah, they heard that he was coming he joins the company Netflix went from 690 to 170 or something like that 360 00:28:55.320 --> 00:28:58.120 It was a direct is a disastrous moment for us 361 00:28:59.080 --> 00:29:03.160 Anyway, so you have like a bunch of like stock from when you work there that track was treated trash 362 00:29:03.800 --> 00:29:07.880 I did everybody a friend your retirement even everybody a favor. He helped 363 00:29:09.560 --> 00:29:11.960 To people for a decade, so thank you trash for that everybody 364 00:29:12.600 --> 00:29:13.800 Trash 365 00:29:13.800 --> 00:29:19.800 Everyone give trash a clap. This is why he's still at Netflix. Get those options down so they can go back up 366 00:29:20.120 --> 00:29:27.000 Yes, exactly. There you go. Casey Stonkin right there. Anyway, so we've been at like you've worked on a product that's sensitive to 367 00:29:28.120 --> 00:29:33.000 Any sort of code right because the TV platform is just it's a very hard platform 368 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.920 It's a much slower platform than everything else 369 00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:42.760 Now trash have you ever once heard anybody at all in any point in life ever talk about response times in frames 370 00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:45.240 No 371 00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:49.320 Yeah, Casey, so this is something that you might not know but in the web world 372 00:29:50.280 --> 00:29:56.760 Nobody has ever once thought of something in terms of frames. I don't think I like this is a whole novel concept of you being like 373 00:29:58.760 --> 00:30:02.920 Next monitor refresh rate something to happen like no one's ever said that ever 374 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:10.760 That would that would explain the disconnect probably because to me, so I like obviously I was 375 00:30:12.120 --> 00:30:15.720 Raised I don't know if that's the correct term to catch on fire 376 00:30:16.280 --> 00:30:19.480 um, so I was raised in the era of 377 00:30:20.040 --> 00:30:26.200 During the Thanksgiving Blank. Yeah, R.A. Z. Ed. Yeah, it was good for I'm nice vocabulary buddy 378 00:30:26.520 --> 00:30:29.000 Okay, Casey continue on with things something smart. Please 379 00:30:29.800 --> 00:30:31.800 It's not smart. It's historical 380 00:30:32.760 --> 00:30:36.280 What you normally would do right is you try to have it so that you know 381 00:30:36.280 --> 00:30:41.000 You update your stuff during the vertical blank of like a CRT right it like the scan line comes down 382 00:30:41.080 --> 00:30:45.400 You update your stuff and you come back around to the top and you need to have everything done in that time 383 00:30:45.560 --> 00:30:51.560 Like for the next right so you're always I mean the the phrase racing the beam like made it into the title of a book 384 00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.720 I think right and that's what that 385 00:30:53.800 --> 00:31:02.040 Was referring to you're racing the beam the like the the actual like CRT like display beam right that the thing that excites the phosphorus on the screen 386 00:31:02.760 --> 00:31:07.320 um of a cathode rate tube right and then went from there to like 387 00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.040 I 388 00:31:10.040 --> 00:31:17.240 In sort of like the Carmack era of gaming like when like the quake engine kind of ushered in 3d and these sort of stuff in in a big way 389 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:20.040 um 390 00:31:20.040 --> 00:31:26.120 At that point like I believe he had a thing and I don't remember if this was like something that he said 391 00:31:27.080 --> 00:31:31.560 In like person that I remember him saying or whether it was something that he posted in like a plan file 392 00:31:32.360 --> 00:31:34.680 Um, but I remember him being like look 393 00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:37.400 If you structure your 394 00:31:38.040 --> 00:31:40.040 Update loop in one way 395 00:31:40.280 --> 00:31:47.000 Where you like do your rendering is where you issue your rendering you you update the world do issue rendering and then process input 396 00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:49.400 um 397 00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:53.640 You lose a little bit of time because some of the input maybe you could have gotten 398 00:31:54.280 --> 00:31:59.240 A little bit before like just before you were about to submit the the render or something like like there was a thing 399 00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:04.040 Where he was talking about that and I was I was like oh, okay. Yeah, I probably should always be very 400 00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:06.440 thoughtful of like 401 00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:15.000 How can I make sure I get input as close as possible to submission so that I'm introducing the least like the little smallest amount 402 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:17.400 of latency 403 00:32:17.560 --> 00:32:23.560 Uh, especially if you have something like a v-sync on where you're going to like if you like processed input and then waited on v-sync 404 00:32:24.040 --> 00:32:27.320 Then came around and did your render now. There's an even bigger gap between those things right 405 00:32:28.360 --> 00:32:32.520 And so uh, I've always I'm always used to think of it is it frames 406 00:32:32.520 --> 00:32:36.760 So input comes in on a frame you should see it on the next frame as close as I can make it 407 00:32:36.760 --> 00:32:40.920 I don't want to be the weak link in that chain. I want it to be the TV that screwing you not me 408 00:32:41.560 --> 00:32:43.080 So I've always thought of it that way 409 00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:49.080 So I always think of it as fps and especially nowadays when like you know when I do ping times 410 00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:53.480 On like the network here even on this crappy comcast connection that I'm on 411 00:32:54.120 --> 00:32:59.240 um most uh network on modern broadband internet the actual ping time 412 00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:01.880 Out from the person 413 00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:06.120 Uh to like a local to something that's close to them is actually sub monitor refresh 414 00:33:06.520 --> 00:33:09.720 Like you can actually get a network packet to someone and back 415 00:33:10.520 --> 00:33:14.840 In less time than like a 60 hertz refresh. That's how good this stuff has gotten 416 00:33:14.840 --> 00:33:21.000 You know people on fiber are getting sub one millisecond ping times to things like the nearest google node, right 417 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:22.360 It's incredible 418 00:33:22.360 --> 00:33:28.280 And so nowadays I just think everything should be thought that way like it's just it's just look the fastest we can 419 00:33:28.600 --> 00:33:33.960 The reason to do it in frames that's the fastest we can get something out to the user like what's the lowest 420 00:33:34.760 --> 00:33:41.160 Uh amount of time this monitor can hit that's what we should be shooting for and sometimes it's unrealistic because it's like okay 421 00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:43.720 They're on like some foot north of 500 422 00:33:44.520 --> 00:33:46.040 Hertz monitor 423 00:33:46.040 --> 00:33:51.560 The operation we're doing is to heavyweight so we got to set a more conservative frame target totally fine 424 00:33:52.120 --> 00:33:58.120 But I I never think of it in terms of anything other than that because that's our limit. That's what I can give you the frames at 425 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.440 Yeah 426 00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:05.960 Yeah, I mean, they do in the even in the world where we do think about a ps especially for like 427 00:34:06.520 --> 00:34:09.880 animated heavy websites when you notice we see like jank it's like stuttering 428 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:13.320 That's typically when we'll actually take into account like fps 429 00:34:13.560 --> 00:34:15.320 But yeah, honestly most apps like 430 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:18.120 Aren't really doing any animations. It's all just async 431 00:34:18.600 --> 00:34:25.640 Crud apps just waiting for something right? So it's a more of how long this take to load which we'll use time like most seconds 432 00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:27.960 Verse 433 00:34:30.120 --> 00:34:35.240 I think ttfb is that what I'm hearing a little bit of that a little bit of time the first bite a little bit at 434 00:34:36.120 --> 00:34:39.480 I feel like that is sort of a separate thing too is like um 435 00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:46.040 You know to me the user should see the response instantaneously even if the thing takes a little while 436 00:34:46.040 --> 00:34:50.360 So like suppose I'm on some network and I'm like look it's AWS 437 00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:56.920 So you know good luck getting this response back in in less than 30 milliseconds because like even though the data center is 438 00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:03.320 Is like two milliseconds of of of hop away or something as soon as it hits AWS 439 00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:07.480 It's just grinds to a halt right and like that's been my experience 440 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:12.920 And it was like the the late the time it takes light to get to the data center has nothing to do with how long to take that 441 00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.360 They are just going to chew through those milliseconds doing whatever it is that they do 442 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:20.520 With like they're switching and you know virtual machine management or whatever it is 443 00:35:20.520 --> 00:35:21.800 You know, I don't work there. I have no idea 444 00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:30.040 So assuming you're going to do that you're like look we're not going to hit 60 Hertz or 120 Hertz because we know this thing is going to take like 40 milliseconds to get back from AWS 445 00:35:30.680 --> 00:35:34.280 I still want to show the thing immediately so like for the case of a run dialogue 446 00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.880 Let's say for whatever reason I can't predict it. I don't know these are going to do it 447 00:35:38.120 --> 00:35:43.000 I have to fetch their run history from AWS for some reason because like it's oh it's a shared 448 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:48.040 It's like a synced run history across machines. I didn't know they were on this machine or so 449 00:35:48.040 --> 00:35:51.000 I mean, I don't know how that doesn't make any sense. I should have sunk this ahead of time. But whatever 450 00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:56.760 I would fire off that request but display the run dialogue on the next frame 451 00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:03.320 Right because I know that by the time they're actually able to hit the first key that I'll need to search that run dialogue for 452 00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:12.440 I probably will get at least some of that information back and so I'm covering a little bit of that latency and giving the user the instant response that I want to give them right 453 00:36:13.640 --> 00:36:19.640 And then if you know the response doesn't come back and they do hit a key and I'm sitting there and I'm like AWS not loading 454 00:36:19.640 --> 00:36:23.400 Then I have to put up a little spinner or something right just tell them like look 455 00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:29.640 AWS is is dick in me here. So I get it like you know run history not available to later. WS respond to the little thing 456 00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:36.280 But you know, that's just how I think about it. So like I'm not being disingenuous. That is literally how I think about it 457 00:36:37.080 --> 00:36:41.400 And it pisses me off in games too like if I'm sitting there waiting for a loading screen that you 458 00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:46.360 I'm like guys you obviously could have streamed this in like why wasn't this already loaded like what's going on 459 00:36:46.520 --> 00:36:51.400 I get mad at that all the time. I'm just like the the goal should be zero weight states for the user pretty much ever 460 00:36:52.600 --> 00:36:56.040 So we've had a lot of arguments about this over over the years and 461 00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:58.840 who you end 462 00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:01.080 My previous team 463 00:37:01.080 --> 00:37:03.080 Shall we say and so one of the one of the big things was 464 00:37:03.560 --> 00:37:09.640 What's worse the initial loading or in app loading like which one actually makes a user more nuts 465 00:37:10.680 --> 00:37:15.480 Which one's going to cause them to be more upset would you rather have a bunch of small distributed little loads 466 00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:18.680 Throughout the app or would you rather have a bigger initial load 467 00:37:20.200 --> 00:37:23.000 So in my mind usually so 468 00:37:24.680 --> 00:37:29.160 I would say that if I find myself in that literal position 469 00:37:30.120 --> 00:37:33.720 Then my answer would be how often do they load this thing 470 00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:37.000 but 471 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:40.680 Before finding myself now because I would have asked the question are you sure 472 00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:48.360 Are you sure that you couldn't find a way to make this work because a lot of times if people are like oh 473 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:55.960 We have no choice but this long initial load. I'm like are you sure like are you sure that you actually did everything you could 474 00:37:56.600 --> 00:37:57.960 To make that 475 00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:03.880 Initial package you needed to get started as small as possible right well. I'm on team bigger load 476 00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:07.640 Initially that's if the app is but obviously within a threshold 477 00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:12.760 If the app is loaded infrequently then if you have to make that trade off 478 00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:16.680 I would say you do that if the app is loaded all the time because you like typically load this thing 479 00:38:16.680 --> 00:38:21.240 Do a little tiny thing and then close it then you're kind of in this nasty situation where it's like 480 00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:27.080 Okay, well, I don't know it's it's sort of just as bad right like because you know 481 00:38:27.080 --> 00:38:30.680 So I would say I wouldn't think about those things as different 482 00:38:30.680 --> 00:38:35.160 I would just say there's frequency of operation and cost of operation 483 00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:41.560 And you're trying to minimize the total of those right the cost times the you know the cost times the frequency 484 00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:47.240 And so if the frequency of launching this app is very high and the frequency of things you do in the app is very low 485 00:38:47.560 --> 00:38:52.920 Then maybe it would make sense to actually try to minimize your app load time, but in general I would say like 486 00:38:54.680 --> 00:38:58.360 99% of the time when someone's like oh, I needed to do X 487 00:38:58.600 --> 00:39:04.200 So that's why there's a long load time here. I'm like no, you didn't like I can think of tons of ways that I could have not done it that way 488 00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:09.720 Right like strip this out don't do it that way have a low quality version of that thing you stream in first 489 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.480 Right like think mega texture right or 490 00:39:14.120 --> 00:39:16.360 Level of detail would be a better way to think of it right 491 00:39:17.720 --> 00:39:21.000 I know that I have something I can display for this thing 492 00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:23.960 It may not be the best looking version of that thing 493 00:39:24.200 --> 00:39:31.320 So if I'm caught by surprise I do that right away and then increase its resolution when I can right things like this 494 00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:36.600 Or you can typically do things to try and make sure that you're very responsive and you know 495 00:39:36.600 --> 00:39:40.040 If you then decide like okay, no, we can't do that because this thing has to be saber scene link 496 00:39:40.040 --> 00:39:45.000 Sure, you can always paint yourself into a quarter where you where you absolutely have to this thing and then I agree you do 497 00:39:45.080 --> 00:39:49.240 But I would make sure all those avenues are exhausted first is I guess what I would say 498 00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:53.960 Yeah, we do have like some techniques that we call or that we coin call like progressive enhancement 499 00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:56.040 Which is yeah exactly the shittiest thing 500 00:39:56.040 --> 00:40:01.400 But if you have a good machine then we'll slowly enhance your experience, right? Which I think is fair 501 00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:04.120 But just go ahead god 502 00:40:04.200 --> 00:40:07.960 No, so just to try and get that nice responsive feel because you know 503 00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:11.560 And that's again, that's just because that's the way I like things 504 00:40:11.560 --> 00:40:13.480 I like things to be very responsive 505 00:40:13.560 --> 00:40:18.120 Maybe some people just don't care they like they push the right button on something 506 00:40:18.120 --> 00:40:20.200 You know if you open up next, I should push the rights button 507 00:40:20.200 --> 00:40:22.200 It takes a while kind of lagging it goes 508 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:27.720 I'm like that sucks like so much should fix this right if someone else might be like I don't know it's fine 509 00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:33.480 Right, and so and so it really depends on who you're talking to probably what their preference is on those two things right 510 00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:34.680 I don't know 511 00:40:34.680 --> 00:40:38.040 Does that make sense like you know some people might be fine with that some people might not be yeah 512 00:40:38.040 --> 00:40:39.640 I mean it's hard to 513 00:40:39.640 --> 00:40:43.000 Everyone has a different threshold really the tolerate right yeah 514 00:40:43.080 --> 00:40:46.360 So yeah, it's hard like who do you optimize for like there's nothing I hate worse 515 00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:49.000 I would hate to have a quick experience like load 516 00:40:49.560 --> 00:40:54.200 Or like a quick loading experience, but then every time I click something it's like ah exactly now 517 00:40:54.200 --> 00:40:59.480 We got to have not that thing yeah, I think that's like significantly worse in my because the clicking is more frequent 518 00:40:59.560 --> 00:41:03.720 Right, it's that's I say like it's frequency versus cost if you're gonna click a hundred times in this thing 519 00:41:03.720 --> 00:41:09.640 But only load it once you don't want the hundred things to each take the long time and the one thing to be fast 520 00:41:09.640 --> 00:41:12.440 Right, that's not helping anybody right, so yeah 521 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:16.360 That's what all my banking software looks like I got like open like my banking dashboard 522 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:21.000 It's just like 20 spinners and then I click something else and it's like 40 more spinners 523 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:27.080 I'm like who's making these banking ads? It's also just got so many zeros in his you know 524 00:41:27.080 --> 00:41:31.720 It's just such a full bank account they're spinning forever to figure out what's in his account 525 00:41:32.680 --> 00:41:37.240 Because you know it's getting added to trash is bad account. It's like oh my goodness 526 00:41:37.240 --> 00:41:39.880 We have to widen this div. It's crazy 527 00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:45.400 What 528 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:47.400 That's just you make sense trash 529 00:41:48.200 --> 00:41:50.200 You're not working right now 530 00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:53.800 I want to be working 531 00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:59.960 That's what I'm saying aren't you having fun hanging out with us when you still be on the bottom trash? 532 00:42:01.160 --> 00:42:03.160 You're not paid to be on this 533 00:42:03.560 --> 00:42:05.560 Oh 534 00:42:11.560 --> 00:42:13.560 Oh red button blue button 535 00:42:17.720 --> 00:42:19.720 Oh, no 536 00:42:19.720 --> 00:42:23.320 I'm answering from now on when people ask that red blue question 537 00:42:23.560 --> 00:42:27.800 I'm giving trash his answer. It's the best answer I've ever heard and I loved it. It was so good 538 00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:33.800 I don't like it. I was thinking about the question deserved it was perfect 539 00:42:33.800 --> 00:42:38.760 I like I that was a teachable moment for me and I have learned from trash and I am a better person. You're welcome 540 00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.200 That's my opinion. Anyway, I really wanted to for the full episode 541 00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:48.600 Just like play I thought about just having the edit be it does trash is answer and then we play everything else on 542 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:53.800 16 x and then it just ends with Casey who's saying I hated this discussion 543 00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:01.880 Haha, I thought people would enjoy the overall conversation 544 00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:05.880 But I did think about like publishing the full episode just with trash answering and then 545 00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:13.880 It was a good answer. It was freaking perfect dude. I loved it. My Microsoft has a bit of a hill to climb 546 00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.080 Because I am just gonna throw this out there 547 00:43:17.080 --> 00:43:23.720 I also get an like an update just recently that restarts my computer like six times before the update actually happens 548 00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:28.600 And I just read an article from somewhere where it's just like it's actually totally normal 549 00:43:29.080 --> 00:43:34.120 That windows needs to up you know restarts your computer 15 times for an update like this is actually by design 550 00:43:34.600 --> 00:43:39.080 And so I think part of the problem that I I personally have is that they're like look at the run 551 00:43:39.720 --> 00:43:43.320 Dialogue performance and it's just like well that's something I virtually never use 552 00:43:45.080 --> 00:43:47.160 Because I just don't I mean I don't do development on there 553 00:43:47.160 --> 00:43:49.560 So I'm not opening something that needs that typically. I'm you know 554 00:43:49.560 --> 00:43:53.160 I'm opening a couple things that have pinned. I use windows in a very rookie way 555 00:43:53.720 --> 00:43:56.920 And so it's just like none of these improvements really help me 556 00:43:56.920 --> 00:43:59.240 I still run into bugs all the time like right now 557 00:44:00.040 --> 00:44:03.640 For whatever reason we're back into this state where when I create a folder 558 00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:08.440 It's goes to the bottom of the list and not the top of the list like all the folders are on the top 559 00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:13.240 I created new when it goes to the bottom and so I have to leave and come back if I wanted up at the top again 560 00:44:13.240 --> 00:44:17.640 It's just like it's driving me bonkers again that there's so many little things are broken 561 00:44:17.640 --> 00:44:19.640 And I just want to like lose my marbles 562 00:44:20.040 --> 00:44:24.120 And then there's like bro, but run dialogue dog is so bad 563 00:44:24.120 --> 00:44:27.160 I did it, but they didn't say that what they said is 564 00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:33.720 We read we're we're putting in a new run dialogue that was made with performance top of mind 565 00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:38.280 And great news it's basically the exact same speed as the old one 566 00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:45.400 Right that's what they said like nobody said that it actually substantially improved the run the performance 567 00:44:45.720 --> 00:44:49.880 So presumably what they were trying to say was we added some features 568 00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:54.280 Right, I'm guessing I assume I mean, I don't know because I don't care 569 00:44:54.680 --> 00:45:01.160 This is the other thing that I hate about the fact that this tweet got I guess so many likes that people started replying to it with this 570 00:45:01.720 --> 00:45:03.720 crap about fps, but anyway 571 00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:06.280 um 572 00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:11.240 I'm assuming that the idea is they added a bunch of features and didn't make it slower which is good right 573 00:45:11.240 --> 00:45:13.960 I mean like I'm happy that they first time in a while 574 00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:17.640 Yeah, but at the same time it's like I wouldn't 575 00:45:18.520 --> 00:45:20.040 mention that 576 00:45:20.040 --> 00:45:27.880 Right, I wouldn't have cited some numbers and bid like hey like we're so proud of ourselves that we didn't slow down a run dialogue like I'm like 577 00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:32.440 Yeah, like like what that's like that's like 578 00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:39.160 par for the course. I mean, what are you talking about like of course you shouldn't have slowed down the time it takes to open the run dialogue 579 00:45:39.560 --> 00:45:47.000 That's a blog post now like what's going on right? So that alone too is just very frustrating because you're like now you're getting mad at 580 00:45:47.640 --> 00:45:54.120 That you're getting mad at me for replying to somebody who replied to your thing where all you did 581 00:45:54.600 --> 00:46:00.680 Was say that the run dialogue takes 94 milliseconds, which is a hell of a lot of time for something to take 582 00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:05.560 And like how did we get here? You know, it's ridiculous. This shouldn't have even been news 583 00:46:05.560 --> 00:46:09.720 It shouldn't even have been posted. Well to be fair the person I got the person that most got mad at you 584 00:46:09.720 --> 00:46:16.920 Was actually a writer for something it wasn't that it was like a friend that could have owned in they could have got owned in a wikipedia page 585 00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:23.240 But instead Casey you're now getting a wikipedia page being mr fps you know falsifier 586 00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:26.760 Um, except it's not false. It is the it is the fps 587 00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:29.560 But yes, like the question I have 588 00:46:30.520 --> 00:46:34.680 There would also be like could we you propose this trade 589 00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:39.720 I believe to Jimmy Wales on the previous episode. Let's propose it now 590 00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:42.360 I can go back and 591 00:46:42.600 --> 00:46:49.640 Delete my original tweet and post a new tweet where I put the millisecond number in place of where the fps number now 592 00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:55.640 Mind you my tweet had both because I quoted the millisecond number so it what it wasn't that I didn't 593 00:46:55.720 --> 00:47:03.080 Include that information right it was that they didn't like the even the fact that you could bring fps into it was just this 594 00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:06.040 Unholy, you know, absolutely 595 00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:08.920 Ridiculous thing to do but anyway 596 00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:12.360 I'll go back and delete that tweet and only mention milliseconds 597 00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:19.080 I won't mention fps anywhere in it in exchange for them writing a nice article about Odin 598 00:47:19.720 --> 00:47:22.280 Um, and how it's used that janga effects there we go 599 00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:27.880 That's a good deal. That's a good deal. That's a good deal. That's a good deal right. We all everyone wins 600 00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:33.400 Um, but I don't know if you know this but a kind of a little update 601 00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:40.200 Uh, this person named Phil which you can't really quite see well on my or the stream can't quite see it very well 602 00:47:40.520 --> 00:47:46.520 But Phil over here wrote his own version in which takes approximately 20 milliseconds to show up on screen 603 00:47:47.160 --> 00:47:50.360 And so he's able to show a dialogue super alter quick 604 00:47:51.240 --> 00:47:53.240 And his own handwritten one 605 00:47:53.640 --> 00:47:57.640 Yeah, but the problem with that is that like um 606 00:47:58.600 --> 00:48:02.680 I'm just I'm just gonna put myself in the mind space of the people who were replying to my tweet 607 00:48:03.080 --> 00:48:10.040 Okay, take a moment take a moment. Take a moment. Yeah, the problem with that is isn't that demonstration doesn't mean anything 608 00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:14.920 Because that person didn't run it on all the same machines and take the median 609 00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:20.440 Mm-hmm. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter 610 00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:22.920 It's meaningless because he has a different monitor 611 00:48:23.160 --> 00:48:30.760 Also, he's not loading he's not loading the run history from Microsoft OneDrive or whatever that it is that this thing does right 612 00:48:31.080 --> 00:48:36.920 So he's not doing the things I always get they're all ridiculous, but they're that they're like um, you know 613 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:39.000 It's not an apples to apples comparison 614 00:48:39.640 --> 00:48:43.480 You don't have all the features. It's the features uh, it's um 615 00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:50.120 It's the plugins you just don't you don't have plugins plugins everyone knows that as soon as there's a concept of a plugin 616 00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:54.280 Everything is takes several seconds to happen 617 00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:56.040 um 618 00:48:56.040 --> 00:49:00.840 Casey you know that's what he will get you people reply with with that crap to that person even though he did it right 619 00:49:01.080 --> 00:49:06.600 So Casey you're actually missing kind of like a really fun part of web dev uh, which goes a little something like this 620 00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:08.920 Which is all right 621 00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:17.400 We're going to rewrite something and we're going to rewrite it and here's our kind of first implementation of it and it is 10 times 622 00:49:18.120 --> 00:49:19.640 Faster, bro 623 00:49:19.640 --> 00:49:27.480 That's so good the previous version like this new version it's so fast and they release it and everyone's like high-fiving and then 624 00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:30.280 About three months later 625 00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:35.240 After you fully rewritten it it's effectively baseline or worse like typically it actually goes worse 626 00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:40.360 Like this happened with a very major project that I saw it actually got significantly worse memory usage 627 00:49:40.680 --> 00:49:44.200 And so it's just like but in the beginning it was so good 628 00:49:44.200 --> 00:49:48.200 So when I see it like a run dialogue rewrite that came in below budget 629 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:53.000 I mean you don't realize what this does to me like I can't I don't even think it was possible 630 00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:55.480 So I'm actually very impressed 631 00:49:56.200 --> 00:49:59.960 I mean like I said I don't know I'm just saying what people will say 632 00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:04.120 I don't know I I thought for oh god 633 00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:08.120 No, teach please I was gonna say initially when I saw the tweet 634 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:14.680 I thought for sure I misread it because I thought they were saying the start menu thing the thing that people actually open 635 00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:21.720 You know, I'm saying the one that like sometimes you press the start thing and then it like it just doesn't show up for five seconds 636 00:50:21.720 --> 00:50:25.720 And then it shows like I was like good for yes 637 00:50:25.720 --> 00:50:29.640 Yeah, it shows me ads for edge and for being and like 638 00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:35.800 I was like wow good for them a feature that a regular every day person uses 639 00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:40.920 They rewrote from scratch and took from my experience median of five to ten seconds to load 640 00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:46.120 It feels like and they brought it down to 90 milliseconds. I'm like great good for them 641 00:50:46.120 --> 00:50:50.120 You see opposite of that right every single version of windows that gets slower 642 00:50:51.080 --> 00:50:57.000 The start menu is still bad and the run menu that my parents don't know exists 643 00:50:57.640 --> 00:51:01.720 My mom has never seen the run menu. She does not know what that even means like if I were to tell it 644 00:51:01.720 --> 00:51:04.200 Oh, just use the run menu. She's like what is a run menu? 645 00:51:04.200 --> 00:51:09.160 I'm kind of confused about the run menu to be completely honest because 646 00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:13.640 Again, this is kind of like for historical reasons 647 00:51:14.120 --> 00:51:20.520 Originally the start menu did not really have the concept of like type to execute so 648 00:51:21.160 --> 00:51:26.680 Like if you look back at like a Windows 95 or Windows 2000 XP or a start menu 649 00:51:27.160 --> 00:51:30.200 Then what happened if I if I'm remembering correctly 650 00:51:31.160 --> 00:51:36.920 Is typing would be imp would be interpreted as like trying to hotkey through that menu 651 00:51:37.160 --> 00:51:43.320 So like you popped up the start menu using like the super key or whatever or the windows key or whatever 652 00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:47.800 It would be called I guess the co-pilot key now Casey co-pilot would it know yeah right 653 00:51:48.280 --> 00:51:51.560 Um, it is yeah you push that the start button opens and you type a key 654 00:51:51.720 --> 00:51:54.840 I think it just hotkeys through that menu. It doesn't start 655 00:51:55.320 --> 00:52:00.360 Uh, it didn't originally I'd at least my recollection is it didn't originally start 656 00:52:01.160 --> 00:52:05.320 Accepting those as keystrokes to be interpreted as a command of some kind 657 00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:08.440 If you now do it like if I hit that button 658 00:52:09.080 --> 00:52:13.640 Uh, it it does so like if I hits the start menu button and I start typing 659 00:52:14.040 --> 00:52:19.000 It does sort of like a linuxy style thing where you start typing into a kind of ambiguous box 660 00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:25.160 That's just like I don't know. I'm gonna do something with this yeah D menu effectively effectively my question is 661 00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:33.080 Why is there even a run menu to begin with now isn't that thing like what why are there two different things 662 00:52:33.160 --> 00:52:35.560 And I'm guessing and I could be wrong 663 00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:41.320 I'm guessing the answer is because the run menu is actually gonna run the thing 664 00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:47.320 Whereas the the box is like we have to keep that as like an idiot box 665 00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:50.920 Like it has to be a thing where you just type if you type in c colon 666 00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:57.160 Backslash uh, you know windows backslash notepad.exe into that or something 667 00:52:57.480 --> 00:53:00.440 We have to show you ads for our new co-pilot improved 668 00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:05.400 Uh, actually had that you or what it right like it has to it has to do all these other 669 00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:07.960 Business oriented operations 670 00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:11.720 So that can't be the run dialogue. We have to have this other run dialogue 671 00:53:11.720 --> 00:53:15.000 Is that the explanation because I don't really know like I don't know why there are two 672 00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:22.520 Yeah, Casey unfortunately you're 100% right it will literally show you internet search results 673 00:53:23.160 --> 00:53:25.160 In the start menu 674 00:53:27.160 --> 00:53:33.320 Yeah, thank you for getting the search results. It's a thing uh, so I find Casey 675 00:53:33.880 --> 00:53:37.800 When can I say one more thing about that though, which is that Casey unfortunately you'll be really 676 00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:41.400 Pleased or sad to hear I don't know depending on you know 677 00:53:41.640 --> 00:53:44.760 Are we praying on Microsoft's downfall? I'm not sure but 678 00:53:45.720 --> 00:53:53.640 Oftentimes it shows the internet search result higher than the local program in my experience on that where you start typing something 679 00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:57.720 I start typing slay this fire to and it doesn't pick the game 680 00:53:57.800 --> 00:54:03.640 It's going to pick a web search to bring me to slay this buyer to dot com or something like that instead and opens 681 00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:10.440 It does a bunch of stuff at yeah, yeah, trash hold it up so we can see flip flip your you know point yourself away from the camera 682 00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:14.040 One password. This is a work machine. Hold on. It might reveal 683 00:54:14.440 --> 00:54:19.880 Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. 684 00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:23.640 I'll be enough. I do have my password on the screen right now 685 00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:28.920 Don't don't say no are you kidding me right now? 686 00:54:36.040 --> 00:54:38.360 You can't admit that you cannot admit that out loud 687 00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:52.840 All right 688 00:54:52.840 --> 00:55:00.120 Stacy can I make can I make you even more frustrated? I mean I again like I don't care windows do whatever you want 689 00:55:00.280 --> 00:55:03.000 I switched. I don't care. The frustration was the tweets 690 00:55:03.560 --> 00:55:05.560 It's very mature of you 691 00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:10.760 So one thing that's kind of interesting about 692 00:55:12.200 --> 00:55:16.600 What's called the start menu is that you can you can kind of treat it like a fuzzy finder a little bit 693 00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:22.440 So I can type in like s notes and hopefully I get what I'm wanting it doesn't quite work that well 694 00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:24.520 It pulls up results. I can't quite figure it out 695 00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:27.320 But the run one is definitely not fuzzy findable 696 00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:28.040 Right 697 00:55:28.040 --> 00:55:31.800 So the run one you have to type in like the correct thing you have to say the program you're gonna run 698 00:55:32.120 --> 00:55:37.800 Which I assume is the intent right like it's trying it's trying to be more of a command line like 699 00:55:38.280 --> 00:55:39.560 Experience 700 00:55:39.560 --> 00:55:45.320 Which is why I this is why I assume that there are two which is kind of weird but like you know 701 00:55:46.600 --> 00:55:52.440 Yeah, and so that's that's the that's the interesting one is that you get a more fuzzy find plus internet results one for one 702 00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:58.600 And a no fuzzy find one for the other one and so but the update to the one that nobody know really generally most people don't use 703 00:55:58.600 --> 00:55:59.800 I assume yeah 704 00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:03.720 That's more for people who just like they they 705 00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:07.640 Back in the day they opened the start menu and selected run 706 00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:12.680 Which is how you originally got to this or you learned the hot key of win or something 707 00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:14.600 And now that's just part of your workflow 708 00:56:14.600 --> 00:56:18.200 So we tried to keep it which I appreciate them doing like they could have just removed it 709 00:56:18.200 --> 00:56:23.800 Like you said very few people probably use it in relative to their gigantic user base 710 00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:28.920 But very few people in this case is still probably in the 100,000s right because windows is so huge 711 00:56:29.240 --> 00:56:32.280 Yeah, I think I most often see it in um 712 00:56:33.640 --> 00:56:37.880 Let's see kit bogey videos where the guys are trying to scam him and they make him run 713 00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.280 And 714 00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:47.880 The time I most often see the run menu is they say open up run menu type and then they say something insane to type in there 715 00:56:50.040 --> 00:56:55.720 By the way tj just so you know you could always disable search results if you wanted to oh I can 716 00:56:56.200 --> 00:56:58.280 I don't have any star menu leaders left now 717 00:56:59.160 --> 00:57:01.160 Okay 718 00:57:01.160 --> 00:57:06.360 I guess you wanted to if you know it's fantastic pieces of star menu you could disable ads 719 00:57:06.600 --> 00:57:08.360 It's like a it's an available option 720 00:57:09.080 --> 00:57:14.040 We talked about this recently. I literally tried to boot up an old windows computer that I had 721 00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:19.320 So I could have it as a minecraft machine for my wife so that when we play minecraft together 722 00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:23.320 She just has one computer that we turn on and then it opens to minecraft basically 723 00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:30.600 It got stuck in an update loop where I couldn't download minecraft because it was waiting for windows updates 724 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:35.240 But windows updates couldn't run because it was trying to run windows store problems 725 00:57:35.560 --> 00:57:41.080 And so they fought each other and I couldn't get an update or minecraft installed on the machine 726 00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:46.840 So I deleted everything and installed linux and put minecraft on their faster than I could get the windows update 727 00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:56.280 Minecraft a a Microsoft product a Microsoft product. I had to run the Android emulated version of bedrock 728 00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:58.360 Minecraft on my linux machine 729 00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:04.040 Which I installed from scratch faster than I could figure out how to get the windows thing to work 730 00:58:04.120 --> 00:58:09.160 Because I had to do that because there was bedrock one. That's the one that we're running for my kid. So it's anyways. It's crazy 731 00:58:10.040 --> 00:58:14.120 I think Microsoft should just start shipping linux. I think it's over. I think they should just 732 00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:16.840 Put the windows in that too 733 00:58:17.080 --> 00:58:22.200 They should put a windows logo on linux and call it Microsoft linux 734 00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:25.400 Or something like that Microsoft winix 735 00:58:26.200 --> 00:58:33.400 And just windows 12. That's all I have to do that's just it's windows 12 windows 12 is just linux and they just and they just like like 736 00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:37.480 Send all their source code to the wine developers because I as far as I'm concerned. It's over 737 00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:40.920 Like it's just it's over guys like it's over. All right 738 00:58:41.080 --> 00:58:46.360 Windows sub system for linux. It could be wind at what would be the opposite of sub system something that 739 00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:52.280 Consumers others windows super system. There we go little Linux. Yeah, it's still WSL 740 00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:54.360 But it's also colpilot 741 00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:57.000 It's called colpilot WSL 742 00:58:57.800 --> 00:59:02.920 Because people have been trying I mean people have been trying for decades to get things fixed at this point now 743 00:59:03.240 --> 00:59:08.040 And it's just it's too late like it's just like everyone was forced to go do other stuff now 744 00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:11.000 That's why this is happening no one wanted to do this 745 00:59:11.720 --> 00:59:17.000 Like like valden want to make steam OS like I didn't want to change our machines here to linux 746 00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:23.320 I was fine with windows. They just they forced us to do it by just never caring about what any of us think 747 00:59:23.560 --> 00:59:27.000 And so now we're gone. I'm not coming back. It doesn't matter 748 00:59:28.440 --> 00:59:32.600 Oh, great question. Can they win you back? What would Microsoft have to do to win you back 749 00:59:33.400 --> 00:59:36.760 They can't because I was that's what happens so 750 00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:45.240 When you have a customer who's been a customer for you know, I don't know 30 years for something or 25 years 751 00:59:45.240 --> 00:59:47.240 I don't I'd have to go count how long it was 752 00:59:48.120 --> 00:59:50.360 um since since like the 753 00:59:51.160 --> 00:59:53.080 early 90s probably I would say 754 00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:57.240 When I was like in high school. I think I started using windows 755 00:59:57.960 --> 01:00:01.400 But um doesn't matter like windows 3 1 and stuff 756 01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:07.000 Uh, so the point is when you have a customer who's been with you that long 757 01:00:07.560 --> 01:00:14.680 And had all of their stuff like built on your system and was used to it and you know that was how they do their work 758 01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:17.000 The 759 01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:21.000 amount of work you're asking them to do to leave is pretty substantial 760 01:00:21.640 --> 01:00:25.320 In order to get to that point right it's not a like 761 01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:27.960 It's not a trial separation 762 01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:33.160 It's not a like we're just going to take some time to find each other and then we'll come back and see if this marriage still works 763 01:00:33.560 --> 01:00:34.680 it's not of that 764 01:00:34.680 --> 01:00:36.280 this is a 765 01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:40.600 Like I find you found you screwing the babysitter and we're getting divorced forever 766 01:00:40.760 --> 01:00:43.560 And I will never speak to you again and I'm taking the kids like that's 767 01:00:44.200 --> 01:00:48.840 That's how the windows thing went with me and I suspect that's how it went with a lot of people 768 01:00:49.640 --> 01:00:53.160 They were so bad for so long and so 769 01:00:53.800 --> 01:01:00.280 Egregiously anti-user that the people who left because of that are never coming back like I'm never coming back ever 770 01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:02.280 There's nothing you could do to win me back 771 01:01:02.360 --> 01:01:07.880 I will die a user of some alternative operating system the question that they would need to ask is 772 01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:10.840 How do they stop that from happening to more people 773 01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:16.440 That's the only question left for them Casey I hear all those words you said the babysitter all that okay 774 01:01:16.840 --> 01:01:21.800 But what if just hear me out here, you know, you know how Holly would stop having good and new ideas 775 01:01:23.240 --> 01:01:25.240 What if windows 776 01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:27.800 Seven remastered 777 01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:32.280 Windows seven part two 778 01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:35.640 Windows seven performance edition 779 01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:42.600 Just throwing it out there whatever we went backwards. Okay, here's the thing is that's assuming that 780 01:01:43.160 --> 01:01:44.200 uh 781 01:01:44.200 --> 01:01:48.200 You know that's to continue my analogy that's just like saying I've changed 782 01:01:49.400 --> 01:01:55.080 I what do you mean like what how do I know how do I know you're not gonna go if I take does now 783 01:01:55.080 --> 01:01:57.880 I have to do work to switch back to your platform 784 01:01:58.520 --> 01:02:04.200 What what guarantees do I have that you won't just start sucking again immediately right and none 785 01:02:04.600 --> 01:02:09.640 You've demonstrated what kind of company you are you've demonstrated how you treat your users 786 01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:13.560 You've demonstrated institutionally what you think of us 787 01:02:14.120 --> 01:02:20.360 Which is you don't think of us you don't care when we repeatedly say you need to fix this windows update situation 788 01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:28.120 When we repeatedly say that look all of these things are broken the fight like the explorer if you accidentally drag an icon over a network share 789 01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:30.360 It pauses for several seconds 790 01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:36.600 Unrecoverably how long has not waiting what is that like I don't know this don't fix anything. I don't care anymore 791 01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:39.400 I don't want to rely on you anymore, right? 792 01:02:39.960 --> 01:02:47.000 It's gotten to the point where some random people on the internet who put together a Linux distribution and put up an ISO 793 01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:52.440 Are more reliable to me than you that is where you have gotten right 794 01:02:53.640 --> 01:02:59.240 In terms of what I think of your ability to provide software to me that I can rely on it's over 795 01:03:00.360 --> 01:03:05.160 It's it's it's done. There's no way there's nothing you could do. I will you know 796 01:03:05.160 --> 01:03:09.960 I would go start working on Linux to fix it before I would go back to windows 797 01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:13.000 So not even XP remastered hurdle 798 01:03:14.120 --> 01:03:15.320 No 799 01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:21.240 No, it's the it's the it's a loss of confidence complete loss of confidence in the institution, right? 800 01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:23.400 Okay, but what about windows dose 801 01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:34.600 What about what we get we had Ms. Doss what about mr. Doss 802 01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:44.040 I did not even get the dose quite I didn't even get the joke the the dose I didn't even get it 803 01:03:45.560 --> 01:03:47.560 I mean that's just a judge is absurd 804 01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:50.840 Mr. Doss though, that's pretty funny 805 01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:54.360 Here's what I will say I don't remember if there was a windows two 806 01:03:54.680 --> 01:03:57.640 I remember there was a windows one and I remember there's a windows three 807 01:03:58.200 --> 01:04:00.760 I don't remember if there is a windows two was 808 01:04:02.280 --> 01:04:08.040 Started windows in 3.1 era. I never got to I never was on a windows one. I remember one was amazing 809 01:04:08.040 --> 01:04:11.240 You should go back and take a look. It's like it was a tiling window manager prime 810 01:04:12.440 --> 01:04:17.640 What believe it or not? Oh my god, so windows could actually handle windows well 811 01:04:18.120 --> 01:04:24.600 Tiling people are all like tiling window manager. Oh my god. It's the hotness like baby. I had that with windows one 812 01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:26.760 You open up a new window all your other window 813 01:04:27.320 --> 01:04:32.040 That's what happened all your other windows strength look it up kids. Oh my gosh 814 01:04:32.040 --> 01:04:36.920 That actually hurts me a little bit bill gates brought you the tiling window manager all these noobs 815 01:04:37.160 --> 01:04:41.800 All these noobs thinking linux did that didn't do that. I knew it was maybe windows one theory 816 01:04:42.440 --> 01:04:47.080 I knew what tiling window managers were conspiracy by the gates foundation look it up 817 01:04:48.680 --> 01:04:53.800 DHH do you think you're doing something but you're just windows one baby you're just windows one 818 01:04:54.600 --> 01:04:57.880 Nothing new under the sun windows one open up calculator 819 01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:00.440 Like it only had like three things 820 01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:02.200 Calculator 821 01:05:02.200 --> 01:05:06.520 Open up calculator again. Open up clock. I'm like clock to calculate. I was it was 822 01:05:06.520 --> 01:05:11.080 Word perfect. No pad. That's all you got now. It was word perfect back in the day 823 01:05:11.640 --> 01:05:15.160 Yeah, there was probably a couple apps that were actually important that people were using 824 01:05:15.160 --> 01:05:18.760 I don't know what they were but I just played around with it. I never used it for anything real 825 01:05:19.240 --> 01:05:21.800 True I was a little kid I was a little baby 826 01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:27.880 The heck I know I feel like trash just hasn't had a lot to say so trash what why don't you why don't you give us the last word 827 01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:32.840 Oh, I was gonna say I used to play cuba and family feud on my windows machine via floppy disk 828 01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:35.960 What is family feud the video game 829 01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:38.760 If you 830 01:05:38.760 --> 01:05:41.480 I used to just play family feud that family feud for like 831 01:05:42.680 --> 01:05:46.440 10 hours a day. I don't know my windows machine. It was like the best time of my life 832 01:05:46.520 --> 01:05:53.400 How did you never bring that up after we hosted two family feuds like we would have featured you more highly in the show if we knew you're such a super fan 833 01:05:54.760 --> 01:05:56.680 Yeah, I mean, I just had nothing else to do with my time 834 01:05:57.640 --> 01:06:00.440 And to you in this I don't remember the family feud game 835 01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:05.320 I don't think I've ever seen it. Is it like they give you the category the thing like name something 836 01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:07.800 You pack for a vacation 837 01:06:08.600 --> 01:06:12.440 In you type it in you type it in and you have to get it exactly right or 838 01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:18.600 To get so see the scoreboard or like the x's and that was it. I would just play that non-stop 839 01:06:18.600 --> 01:06:22.920 Do you have a virtual family on the figures at just the same thing? I don't think it actually had people 840 01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:26.840 It was just just like the things flipping they didn't even flip. I mean, it's just showing right right 841 01:06:26.840 --> 01:06:33.080 I mean it's the old days that the stuff was harder. Right. I think you burnt keeper was my little one and dig dug dig dug was another big one 842 01:06:33.080 --> 01:06:37.800 I played too dude my son just discovered dig dug we were out of there being beat with some friends 843 01:06:37.800 --> 01:06:41.400 And they had a little arcade thing down there. So then we started we started 844 01:06:42.200 --> 01:06:47.560 You know, he's five so we're but we started vibe coding a dig dug alternative for him to be able to play 845 01:06:48.200 --> 01:06:51.640 And like because he really liked that in one of them you could make 846 01:06:52.760 --> 01:07:00.680 Like jackhammer the ground there was like a 2.5 D version as well dig dug under covers of the I don't know crazy 847 01:07:01.240 --> 01:07:06.600 Okay, I don't know they had other dig dug versions that I was unaware of but I remember the original and so we 848 01:07:06.680 --> 01:07:11.560 We just started building one with him. It was pretty sick. I don't know dig dug 849 01:07:12.200 --> 01:07:18.760 What dig dug? No, I mean, I know rampage. I know all the sickly digging around the street like 10 years later 850 01:07:19.320 --> 01:07:23.480 Like a decade after dig dug dig dug is way older. Okay, so maybe maybe okay, hold on 851 01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:25.480 Maybe I do know dig dug by accident 852 01:07:25.640 --> 01:07:29.800 I do have a nice little Atari machine like gigantic arcade machine 853 01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:31.800 That's an Atari machine with a few different games on it 854 01:07:32.360 --> 01:07:37.160 And one of them is a thing where you dig through the ground and these enemies try to get you and you like 855 01:07:37.960 --> 01:07:39.960 What appears to be a pump atom? 856 01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:42.200 Yes, that's a couple more times and they pop 857 01:07:43.000 --> 01:07:45.000 Oh, that's dig dug. Okay 858 01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:53.240 Okay, I thought they were they burst. Yes, they burst. Yes. Okay, very it's a very graphic game. You explode people 859 01:07:54.120 --> 01:07:55.880 Yeah, it's kind of wild 860 01:07:55.880 --> 01:08:00.760 Yeah, I think doom was like the first game I played. I was like gore and it was like what happened here 861 01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:03.320 That was insane. That's a good game 862 01:08:04.280 --> 01:08:08.680 All right, well great final note trash. I appreciate that you're welcome 863 01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:13.240 You know, I actually feel bad for making me bring the show together like I don't know man 864 01:08:13.240 --> 01:08:16.280 You got I we got to keep him on the show. I have like a very interesting 865 01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:19.800 We're just lack message. I was like reading it like near the animals like I 866 01:08:20.920 --> 01:08:26.840 I guess go Kasey what that means though too is we have to make sure trash never gets rich because apparently as soon as he gets rich 867 01:08:26.840 --> 01:08:28.840 He's leaving us behind 868 01:08:29.240 --> 01:08:34.200 Be like do not promote this man. He's questionable. See I get written in the sky full-time 869 01:08:38.440 --> 01:08:45.000 All right, oh my gosh, so by the way if anyone's if if we ever do a stand-up without the trash, you know why 870 01:08:46.040 --> 01:08:48.040 Yeah 871 01:08:48.040 --> 01:08:50.040 What's the what's the meme where it's like 872 01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:56.920 It if I become rich like there will be signs how what's the phrase? I won't it won't be obvious, but there will be signs 873 01:08:56.920 --> 01:09:02.840 You guys know that yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it's trash not it's our podcast with three people 874 01:09:05.640 --> 01:09:11.480 The one the one episode before that happens the room he's in right now will just be it'll just be all 875 01:09:11.480 --> 01:09:18.120 Pokemon's are all like he's kind of like being crushed slowly by the cheer that is the dream yeah 876 01:09:18.440 --> 01:09:20.440 That is the dream hopefully we get there 877 01:09:21.240 --> 01:09:25.240 Yeah, all right. Well, thank you very much for joining us for the stand-up 878 01:09:25.480 --> 01:09:31.000 We didn't there was an alternative topic. We might have talked about today, which was GitHub's uh big performance push as well 879 01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:33.320 Talk about that. I was like, I guess we're not getting to that 880 01:09:33.560 --> 01:09:37.720 Yeah, this went on a little bit too long. So that's something we'll probably have to do another time maybe 881 01:09:38.120 --> 01:09:44.280 Anyways, thank you for joining us. The name is Kasey Miritori trash teach agenda 882 01:09:50.440 --> 01:09:53.160 Oh