WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.031 --> 00:00:16.973
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Way UK podcast. I'm your host Zoe and I'm joined by my delightful co-host Solomon Solomon And today guys we have a very exciting episode because we are joined by the wonderful Johanian scholar Woo!

2
00:00:16.973 --> 00:00:32.870
Belle, Sister Riley that was a wild word and basically if you don't know what that means Belle has a doctorate in John 4 in the Bible and so she is very qualified to speak on what we'll be speaking about today

3
00:00:32.870 --> 00:01:01.372
which is going to be John Ford. John Ford. It would be a real plot twist if it wasn't that. Honestly, gave it away right there. Sorry, sorry. No, absolutely no mystery here. But we just did a podcast with Belle where she spoke about wilderness seasons and also touched on spirituality. Belle has a book coming out in early June that might've already been and gone, but talking all about spirituality and the

4
00:01:02.587 --> 00:01:27.055
I don't know how to summarise it well. The openness of the spiritual landscape. There you have it. But yeah, this time around we'll be diving into Belle's expertise in John 4. So if you don't have your Bibles, please grab your Bibles. This is going to look like a bit of a different Bible study today. We're not going to go through verse by verse, but we're going to get a general synopsis because it's quite a long passage, and then we're just going to dive in.

5
00:01:27.055 --> 00:01:56.300
And just before we get into the episode, our mission here at The Way is to share the good news of Jesus with every single young person online, which is a pretty big goal. But one thing that helps us to do that is if you guys are watching on YouTube to subscribe, leave a comment, leave a like. And if you're listening on Spotify or Apple, then please follow us and leave a rating, whatever you wish in the rating. Yeah. OK, guys, roll the credits. Sorry, that was really long intro. Let's just get into it. That was really good. Let's just get into it.

6
00:01:59.438 --> 00:02:23.047
So, Belle. Hi. Welcome back. Thanks for being here. Double whammy. Yeah, I know. Thanks for staying. Oh, God. Thanks for letting me stay. It's been a joy. I mean, just before we dive into John 4. Yeah. You have studied theology for many years now. Yeah. I think we said in the last podcast you started studying it 11 years ago.

7
00:02:23.047 --> 00:02:52.173
Yeah, I was a student for like eight years all in. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And now you have a doctorate in John 4 specifically. Yeah. What is it about John 4 that drew you to it? And why did you choose this chapter out of all of the chapters in the Bible to be like, I'm going to spend four years on this? That's such a good question. I mean, my gosh, how nerdy should my answer be? Like I'm trying to pick a level. Take us there. Take us all the way there. All the way there. Yeah.

8
00:02:52.173 --> 00:03:22.160
I think, so John is like, he's my favourite gospel writer by far. Wow. Because he's just so odd. He's so odd. He's so weird with it. Like when you compare him to Matthew, Mark and Luke, you're just like, oh man, you've got different style, different interests. You're wanting to do different things, say different things, say it in different ways. And so for that reason, he grabs my interest. He's also just like super ambitious in what he's trying to do. And he's also really clear, like he lets his own personality into his writing and...

9
00:03:22.160 --> 00:03:49.312
oh my i just i really like john i really really like john and i was really like blessed that my lecturer my supervisor in my uni just happened to at the time be like one of the world's leading experts in john so it kind of made sense yeah so i was like well you're here i should really make the most of you yeah let's do john i'd be mad if i asked her to teach me mark yeah if she's like the leading expert in john so there was a bit of that and then john four in particular um

10
00:03:49.312 --> 00:04:13.223
oh man it's just so deep and rich i was super captivated by certain parts of it i mean i love um it is a case study of the way jesus interacts with and treated women um it's a beautiful case study for that there's also and maybe we'll get into some of like the details of this like the way that the old testament shows up in this scene is intricate and like

11
00:04:13.223 --> 00:04:36.173
so interesting and kind of when you like do a little bit of like digging you're like john is saying multitudes without having to say a word so like all of that is a perfect case study and how john is being so classically john and then also it's and again i'm sure we'll dig into this it's the first time in john's gospel that jesus says he's the messiah that he just lets himself be known in that way

12
00:04:36.173 --> 00:04:57.335
Oh man, I could go on and on, but it's- We'll get there, we'll get there, don't worry. We will, it's like, yeah, we've got a whole episode, but it's so rich. I ended those four years of studying John 4, like being like, I need another four years studying John 4. Yeah, like I barely scratched the surface. I mean, my gosh, like both John, but also primarily Jesus are geniuses.

13
00:04:57.335 --> 00:05:21.787
come on now it's my hot take our favorite geniuses yeah jesus and john okay well we'll be speaking a lot about john four so yeah before we um get into it i also just want to name guys we are just going to be looking at the story of the woman at the well um in this little summary synopsis slash whole episode so um yeah open up your bibles to john four verses one to 42

14
00:05:22.276 --> 00:05:38.797
there we go Belle knows Belle knows man I need to fact check Rose off here Belle knows she is in fact correct yeah so take us there take us there I'm glad you're correct yeah I like that you yeah thank you for fact checking me

15
00:05:38.797 --> 00:05:59.300
Yeah, so it happens relatively early into Jesus' public ministry. He has left Jerusalem because already in this early stage, tensions are starting to rise between him and the Pharisees. So because of that, he leaves Jerusalem and on his way home, he goes through this area called Samaria. Yeah.

16
00:05:59.300 --> 00:06:22.216
And while he's there, his disciples go off somewhere to find food and Jesus is left on his own. And he comes across this woman in the middle of the day who is drawing water from a well. So he kind of sidles up to her and he asks her for some water. And she's so shocked because there are a hundred different reasons that he should not be asking her for water. But anyway, what transpires is this like

17
00:06:22.216 --> 00:06:51.528
deep rich dense conversation between jesus and this woman that is both deeply personal like deeply about her but also like incredibly like vast in that it's about her people and it's about like the relationship between jews and samaritans it ends up being about who jesus is and different types of worship like this conversation is like wild in how much is crammed into it

18
00:06:51.528 --> 00:07:21.160
And so it really just changes her idea of almost everything totally upside down. And of course, one of the most defining factors of her, what she may be known for is the fact that she has had many husbands and that the man that she's living with when Jesus finds her isn't her husband. So again, I'm sure we'll go into the details of that. So she goes back to her community and she goes and she says the most beautiful sentence where she just says, come and see a man who's told me everything I ever done.

19
00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:40.617
and at the sound of those words her community come out to meet jesus at the well which is just outside the town and they just start chatting to jesus and they say to this samaritan woman it is not it now it's not just because what you've told us but because what we've experienced that we have come to believe that this man is the savior of the world

20
00:07:40.617 --> 00:08:08.630
Wow. And wild, like the stuff that's packed into this. And Jesus stays with them for a few days. And that's, I mean, that's John Fool, that's the chapter. And like, even then, barely scratched the surface of like the depth. I have a question just before we get into the nitty gritty, as it were. But I mean, you've studied it for years. I'm just wondering, has the meaning of it changed over time for you? Is like certain themes sort of,

21
00:08:08.815 --> 00:08:30.753
grown in their significance as, as you've studied it more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The short answer is yeah. Which ones, if you could give us a quick overview. I'm so sorry. No, don't be. So one of the things that's really recent. So when I did my doctorate on it, I actually didn't massively touch on.

22
00:08:30.753 --> 00:08:55.458
how effective she is at telling her community about Jesus like I touch on it but I looking back having finished that I'm like oh John specifically wants us to know that the her community the people in her town the Samaritans listened and responded to the way she spoke about Jesus so John specifically wants us to know that this way works

23
00:08:55.795 --> 00:09:17.463
If you know what I mean? So that means that since I've been like, OK, well, then I need to look at the way she's been doing this, because John wants us to know this is a good formula for telling people about Jesus like this week. So I guess that's been like a more recent thing. So I've really dug into that the way she speaks about Jesus in just that one sentence that she offers up.

24
00:09:17.463 --> 00:09:42.775
it's so good but also when you get into um the real like nuts and bolts of it like you say the nitty-gritty yeah you realize that john is doing all kinds of very clever very subtle totally blink and you miss it type things in regards to the old testament and the way he's pulling in like really key stories and using them and kind of like winking at his audience the whole way

25
00:09:42.775 --> 00:09:59.043
But I think that as well, just the way John, and this is classic John, is telling one story, but in doing so, he's telling this meta story about like the way God gets his work done. Wow. Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited.

26
00:09:59.127 --> 00:10:17.572
You know, for everyone watching at home, if you've read it or have just read it, it says it, it makes it clear that, you know, and you said it, that a Jewish man, a Samaritan woman shouldn't really be talking. So that's rare. And I guess I'm just, I would like to know a little bit more about the context behind like,

27
00:10:17.572 --> 00:10:30.869
behind that and how, how significant it is that Jesus crosses that boundary and what, what that actually means. Cause to us it's like, oh, he's, oh, that's like, you shouldn't do this, but what would it actually be like in the first century for someone to do this?

28
00:10:31.088 --> 00:10:54.460
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Okay. Um, so offensive to the point of making people feel sick at the thought of it to sum up, there used to be this prayer, um, this prayer that, that, um, certain Jewish communities would pray where they basically be thanking God for things. And they'd say, I thank you God that you did not make me a woman. I thank you that you did not make me a Samaritan. And most of all, I thank you that you did not make me a Samaritan woman.

29
00:10:54.460 --> 00:11:14.153
So this idea that like that's almost the worst you can be really. Oh my goodness. So there's a few things that the fact that he's speaking to a woman is really controversial. When the disciples come back from getting food, they don't say, oh my goodness, Jesus is over there talking to a Samaritan. They say, oh my goodness, Jesus is over there talking to a woman.

30
00:11:14.153 --> 00:11:33.593
So it's just because of purity reasons, they were very firm boundaries put in place that meant that men and women like that weren't related just didn't mix on their own. Like that was just a big no-no for safety reasons, for social boundaries, for religious purity reasons. Like, no, no.

31
00:11:33.593 --> 00:12:02.467
Um, but also there are very, very deep and specific tensions between Jewish communities in the time at the time and Samaritan communities. Um, because basically they only share the first five books. So if we remember that Jewish people have what we call the old Testament, what they would call the Hebrew Bible. Um, so the, the Samaritans only share the first five books of that with them and then they go off in different directions.

32
00:12:02.467 --> 00:12:29.247
So basically, if you're a Jewish person, you think that what the Samaritan community has done is taken like this core truth and then run away with it, almost like stolen it. Do you know what I mean? And then twisted it and manipulated it and tweaked it slightly. And they worship God in different ways in different places. A key thing is that Jewish communities thought that you had to go to Jerusalem to worship God. And Samaritan communities thought you went to a different mountain, a mountain called Gerizim.

33
00:12:29.247 --> 00:12:51.151
So it's just all of these things where it's like, there's a little element of like, how, how dare you take the God that, that desires this very specific type of worship and decide you're going to worship him a different way. So it's kind of more offensive than if they didn't believe any of the same stuff. It's like, you've taken some of our stuff and run with it. And so I don't know, like, we're all obviously all Christians.

34
00:12:51.151 --> 00:13:19.636
So there's an element to which we may be able to relate where it's like, imagine if someone like loved Jesus, but then was doing wild things in his name that you're like, that looks nothing like the Jesus that I know that looks like that's, that's not, then that's kind of like upsets us more than if someone was doing things not in his name. Does that make any kind of sense? Yeah. So it's that kind of thing, but times a hundred because of all the social boundaries around it. Wow.

35
00:13:19.636 --> 00:13:45.455
Like you said that about the Samaritan woman being just like a, it's tough. What would her life have been like before this moment then? What would that have looked like day to day? Ah, specifically because of what we know about her? About her, yes. Obviously Jesus brings up a past. We get to hear a little bit about, you know, five husbands and stuff like this. But also because she's a Samaritan woman. Yeah, actually, yeah. Specifically her, not only being a Samaritan woman, but also having this past. Yeah.

36
00:13:46.130 --> 00:13:56.272
Okay. No, no, it's good. Here's where I, here's where my study has like led me to be like, Oh,

37
00:13:56.677 --> 00:14:20.555
that's not what I was taught in like church or whatever, because when I did my doctorate and I was reading like different interpretations of this woman, I was reading again and again and again, interpretations of this woman as some kind of, what's like the most polite word I can use for what I'm going to try to describe? Yeah.

38
00:14:20.555 --> 00:14:40.535
like man eater do you know what i mean like some kind of like seductive seductive temptress like oh my god she just absolutely worked her way through five men like and and that was and i remember i was reading these interpretations and one of them said that she was um

39
00:14:40.535 --> 00:15:01.510
like just like super like full of lust and was trying to get it on with Jesus was offended like this is a real academic like interpretation of her right it was just wild it was just wild and yet the more I learned about the way marriage in the first century worked the more I was like hang on

40
00:15:01.510 --> 00:15:18.318
women didn't have the legal standing to start marriages, nor did they have the legal standing to end marriages. So this idea that she both initiated and then obliterated five different marriages was,

41
00:15:19.718 --> 00:15:35.041
like of her own accord, like immediately began to fall apart in front of my eyes. So what's way more likely, what's way more likely is that she is the victim of a system that is not designed to protect her.

42
00:15:35.041 --> 00:16:00.337
We don't know why she had so many husbands. We don't know why those marriages didn't work. The only thing we can really be sure of is that it was not in her power to start or end any of them. So what picture does that actually present us of? It may have been because she couldn't have children and that was a huge deal back then. It may have been because there was a huge amount of death in the family. We have no idea. Yeah.

43
00:16:00.337 --> 00:16:21.397
But what we do know is that she's an incredibly vulnerable woman with a past that would have brought her so much pain and shame. And we know that she's at the well in the middle of the day, which would be quite rare because that's the hottest time of the day to go and get the water. So for some reason, she's separating herself from the community. We don't know why.

44
00:16:21.397 --> 00:16:37.546
So there's hints that she's sort of been outcasted from society. She's currently living with a man who's not her husband, which is what Jesus says to her. And again, we're like, I think we have like quite 21st century eyes on that. And we think that that's a decision she's made with like,

45
00:16:37.546 --> 00:17:05.423
all of her own power. Yeah, exactly. When an unmarried woman in this context was utterly powerless. So she's probably living with someone for safety and this guy might be refusing to marry her. We just don't know. But there's definitely more of a sense of her being a victim of a system than there is her being some kind of like manipulative. And how would, so everyone else, the Samaritans and the Jews, would they see it like...

46
00:17:05.423 --> 00:17:20.425
man-eater or would they see it more like how you've just described it how i've just described it i think rather yeah i mean there may be again we don't know so there might be some there may have been some people who would have attached blame to her for like superstitious reasons

47
00:17:20.425 --> 00:17:45.890
Or if she couldn't have babies, that, I mean, that is a painful thing now. But back then that was, wasn't just painful on a personal level. That had huge social and economic implications. So it's like heaps, like it was like an outcast worthy thing, which is terrible to think about. So yeah, they would have been immediately aware that this was a woman who had been picked up and tossed aside and picked up and tossed aside again and again and again.

48
00:17:45.890 --> 00:17:52.032
Yeah. So on that note, sorry, on that note, why does Jesus bring up a past?

49
00:17:52.808 --> 00:18:21.412
Well, this is what's really interesting because there's actually no hint in the Bible of him kind of bringing it up as some kind of discipline thing. If you notice, he doesn't do anything with it. The only reason he brings it up to here is for here to realize that he knows here. So he brings up, he says, you've had five husbands and the man you're living with isn't your husband. And here words are, okay, I see you're a prophet.

50
00:18:21.412 --> 00:18:46.370
As in, okay, I see that you know me. So if anything, the conclusion I've come to, and opinions may vary because it's vague, right? But the opinion I've come to is it's absolutely not to push her away, which is what she might have been used to from every other person in her life. But he brings up specifically to pull her in, specifically to say this will not be a barrier between me and you and the conversation that we're having. Yeah.

51
00:18:46.370 --> 00:19:05.928
It in no way disqualifies here from anything that Jesus is saying or doing or promising. It just, so it's like to bring it up and to name it specifically as a way of like diminishing its power over her life. That would be my sense. Like a redemptive.

52
00:19:05.928 --> 00:19:23.208
Totally redemptive, right? To the point where she can go back to her community and say, come and see a man who's just told me everything I've ever done. Like that doesn't reek of shame, does it? That drips with this sense that like, it's lost his power over me. Like come and see this man who's...

53
00:19:23.208 --> 00:19:39.847
who knew everything about me and I am captivated by him, who drew me into his company, knowing everything about me. And maybe what's implied there, and again, we don't know, but maybe what's implied is, come and see this man who told me everything I ever did and accepted me in a way that none of

54
00:19:39.847 --> 00:20:06.965
you have yeah you know what i mean like we don't know but what we do know is there's no sense of her hiding that anymore yeah which is crazy yeah it's a total point of restoration for him wow i love that because that's like crazy how at the start of it of this passage she's at the well trying to be there on her own at the hottest part of the day so nobody else will be there but then by the end of her conversation with jesus she's the one seeking out people yeah yeah

55
00:20:06.965 --> 00:20:33.796
to go and tell them about what he's just done exactly pulling them into this amazing conversation that she's just had yeah it's the most beautiful thing it's like she refuses to allow it to stay with her and isn't that such like a challenge for us yeah like i am such such a gatekeeper of jesus in so many ways we're like my comfort zone is me and him on our own thrashing it out i mean like

56
00:20:33.796 --> 00:20:51.515
And that's just not, like, we should refuse to let the goodness of Jesus stay a secret that we keep. Do you know what I mean? Like, we can't gatekeep his goodness. It should just, like, instinctively be like, you have to see this guy. Just ooze out. Yeah. Yeah, totally. It's her first response.

57
00:20:51.515 --> 00:21:11.680
it's her first and instinctive response there's this detail that everybody seems to love in the story where of course she's at the well to draw water so she has a jar and um she leaves it there to go and tell her community she forgets her jar like it's that instinctive that the very thing she was at the well for has like paled in comparison wow

58
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:28.083
Is that what John was trying to do when he kind of left that in the text? Because it's like pretty clear. He like puts it in. Yeah. He wants you to know, doesn't he? She leaves a water jar. I love that about John. Yeah. I think so. I think that is. I mean, like, oh my gosh, I cannot claim to like get into the mind of John.

59
00:21:28.083 --> 00:21:53.716
he is wizard levels of genius is freaky but i think so you're right he specifically wants you to know what was important to hear is now not so important to hear what like the job at the top of her to-do list is no longer at the top of her to-do list like jesus turns our most mundane things upside down he rearranges everything wow that is crazy yeah

60
00:21:53.969 --> 00:22:23.213
You know, I love the reaction that the disciples give when they come back and they see it and they're shocked and they don't say anything. Which is so interesting to me. Why don't they say anything? Why don't they say anything? I know. And that pale, like, again, that's really interesting in comparison to the Samaritan woman who has heaps of questions for Jesus. She's just like, I don't understand this. I don't understand that. You say this, you say that. And she verbalizes it. And yet the disciples come back. They have a heap of questions for Jesus. And they're like,

61
00:22:23.213 --> 00:22:31.870
We'll keep that to ourselves. We'll hold on to those. Why do you think that was? That's a really good question. I don't know why that is. Other than...

62
00:22:32.427 --> 00:22:53.842
nothing what i would say about john like whenever you're reading any little snippet of john no weird is in there by accident no weird isn't there by accident so it's like there's both one answer to every question and a thousand answers to every question we have so i don't know the answer but an answer is definitely john being like ask jesus the questions

63
00:22:53.842 --> 00:23:18.884
always ask Jesus the questions so I think there's a bit of that there's a bit of a teaching moment in there but I also wonder if it's like um so the the first people to have like received this story to have heard it read aloud to them or to have read it themselves they would have the same question of like how did Jesus like is Jesus really did I really just read a story or hear a story of Jesus speaking to a woman um

64
00:23:18.884 --> 00:23:33.886
So it's kind of like they are in the story as well through the disciples, that the disciples reactions would also have been like the first audiences kind of reactions. Yeah. Which is like, what has just happened? Yeah. What has happened? What has just happened?

65
00:23:33.886 --> 00:23:51.605
I mean, I think it's so interesting how it goes from Jesus telling her about her past. Yeah. And then she's like, okay, yeah, you're a prophet. I get it. And then brings up what divides them, which is the different places that the Samaritans worship and the Jewish people worship in.

66
00:23:51.605 --> 00:24:12.108
but i wondered if you could touch a little bit on that section like the verses 21 to like uh 26 basically where jesus just talks about worship and brings up this idea of worshiping in spirit and in truth and how like the time has come where people can do this like what does yeah what does jesus mean in in this section

67
00:24:12.108 --> 00:24:27.110
yeah sorry no it's a really good question and this is what i mean about this conversation like it's both deeply personal to her and yet also it's like about the biggest stuff that like there possibly is like how we worship

68
00:24:27.110 --> 00:24:56.067
And so you're right. One of the big dividing things, as we've already said, is that Jewish people believed worship should happen in Jerusalem on that mountain. And Samaritan people, Samaritan people believed that it should happen on Mount Gerizim. And that was a huge point of division. And so I guess this is the classic thing, which is so often what people wanted from Jesus, which is basically like pick a side. Yeah. Jesus, pick a side. Like you're here now. Great. Tell us who was right and who was wrong. Yeah.

69
00:24:56.067 --> 00:25:24.485
And like Jesus just receives those kinds of things all the time. People are constantly like this or that. Are we right? Or are you right? Like left or right up or down? Do you know what I mean? Like expecting Jesus to either affirm everything they're doing or not to agree with them and disagree with the people they disagree with. Yeah. And I can't think of once where Jesus like does that. I can't think of once where Jesus is like, okay, good question. So, uh, I think I'm team eight. Yeah.

70
00:25:24.485 --> 00:25:44.279
like he just that's he just never goes there and it's the same here where she genuinely wants to be like so are we right or are they right like let's let's let's clarify this now we could end we could end this here decades yeah yeah yeah we could end this now and then jesus again is just like listen

71
00:25:44.279 --> 00:26:00.361
Like your eyes are fixed on the wrong stuff. You're asking the wrong questions. And he literally says, yeah, a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and in truth for they are the kind of worshipers the father seeks.

72
00:26:00.361 --> 00:26:28.120
So it's this Jesus saying, listen, it doesn't matter if you worship here or if you worship there. It doesn't matter if it's on this mountain or that mountain. What matters is like your heart. So like if you're, if you are not worshiping in spirit and in truth, as in like, if your heart is not in it or your posture isn't open, if you're not giving me your whole self, my gosh, be on any mountain you want and it won't matter. Or be on the right mountain and it won't make a difference.

73
00:26:28.120 --> 00:26:49.147
so jesus is just constantly like lifting our eyes he's constantly like tilting our heads and being like this is the stuff like you guys are so bogged down with like the rules the right and the wrong the this or the that the there or the there like and and yet he's constantly just like challenging and being like

74
00:26:49.147 --> 00:27:09.464
it's all about spirit and truth do you know i mean like it's all about knowing me and making me known it's all about loving me with your whole heart and he's doing that there like he's just not going to get sucked into the whole are we right or are they he's like that's the wrong question wow that's so beautiful and also i love like i mean the fact that jesus wants her worship

75
00:27:09.464 --> 00:27:34.709
Yeah. Like, he actually wants the worship of a Samaritan woman. Yeah. That is so, I don't know, that just feels really profound. Yeah. He chose to say this to her and then to reveal himself as a Messiah. Yeah. I wondered if you could touch a little bit on how he wraps up this, his little speech on, not little speech, very profound and deep speech on worship.

76
00:27:34.709 --> 00:28:00.359
but like how he literally wraps it up by saying i the one speaking to you yeah i am he yeah because jesus doesn't really uh really clearly say that i'm the messiah many times else in the gospels it's just kind of alluded to yes um you're so right but yeah so what

77
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:27.798
yeah just what what is yeah and it's the first time so it's the first time in john's gospel that he tells anyone who he is wow he chooses it to be here i haven't um i remember this really came to life for me when i watched this the episode of the chosen that's about her because he tells um jesus tells the smart woman that he's the messiah and then all the disciples are like did you just did you just tell her that you're the messiah and jesus is kind of like yeah

78
00:28:27.798 --> 00:28:51.271
And then they all have like, they're like, okay, it's on. Like it's like, oh, here we go. Like we're going public with this. Like, here we go. And I love that. It really brought it to life. What a moment this is of like, okay, like this cannot be put in the box anymore. Jesus has gone public with who he is. It's the most beautiful, like excitable moment ever.

79
00:28:51.271 --> 00:29:19.452
And you're right. So she goes, she says to him, I know that the Messiah is coming and when he comes, he'll explain everything to us. And so he kind of like, he meets that faith in here. This idea of like, I know someone's coming and I know I don't know everything. And I know the Messiah will explain everything to me. That's such a pure faith that she has. And the fact that he meets her in that and he's like, you're right. And I'm it. Like it's...

80
00:29:19.452 --> 00:29:49.439
I don't know, like when you just read words on a page, they can kind of like be bled of like the humanness. But can you remember the excitement in Jesus when he got to be like, the one you're speaking to? I'm here. Like there must have been so much delight in him that he was able to meet her in that hope that she had, that the Messiah would come and like tell her everything and explain things to her and probably explain things about herself to her and all of that.

81
00:29:49.439 --> 00:30:17.080
it just feels like a gift that you gave here to me that's the way i've always kind of like read it is it's this beautiful gift that he would be like you are speaking to the one that you've been waiting for and you're right the fact that he he says that to hear when he has as we've already like alluded to every possible reason for it not to have been here there is every possible reason for who to have been disqualified from being the one that he would speak to like

82
00:30:17.080 --> 00:30:38.410
every reason why it shouldn't have been here he specifically does decide to like disregard every single one and go straight for here and in doing so that's an utter gift to hear it's so dignifying so filled with grace and with love but also that's a gift

83
00:30:38.410 --> 00:31:06.170
to us everyone who every single person who's read this story that feels like there is every possible reason why jesus should not want to be with us why he should not want to speak to us why he should not want to use us this story doesn't allow you to disqualify yourself at all like it will meet all of us in our place where we want to hide it will meet all of us in our place of disqualification

84
00:31:06.170 --> 00:31:16.278
And we'll be like, no, you know, like you don't get that option. Yeah. He comes right for it. So to me, it feels like Jesus was...

85
00:31:17.577 --> 00:31:39.397
It was like a grace-drenched act on two levels, for her and for us. So yeah, it's just the most beautiful choice that he made. I have a question about that. You said, obviously, this is a major moment for the Samaritan woman and the story that John's telling. But I'm just wondering, as someone that has spent so much time in this...

86
00:31:39.700 --> 00:31:59.242
story have you ever wondered what happens to the samaritan woman after we leave her and if and if you have what kind of things what what are you thinking to that entire community because right the samaritans come to jesus yeah so what what do you think happens there if you were to if you were to speculate this is just pure speculation just speculative

87
00:31:59.410 --> 00:32:28.435
Yeah, no, I think from tradition, we do know that the Samaritan church endured. So yeah, come on. It's one of the oldest Christian communities. Well, Christian communities, like they obviously wouldn't have called themselves that. Christian wasn't a weird, but Jesus believed in communities. This is one of the oldest in histories. And we know that they survived and they endured. And I don't know, pure speculation. Speculation. Makes me want to think that she was a major part of that.

88
00:32:28.435 --> 00:32:36.991
that I mean that captivation I just don't think that would have gone anywhere and yeah

89
00:32:37.919 --> 00:33:00.447
It's a real, I could get really, do you want me to get really geeky? Take us there. Take us there. Okay. So the fact that she meets Jesus by a well in particular, John is doing something very specific there where he is telling his audience, his audience who mostly would have been Jewish at this point, like his first intended audience,

90
00:33:00.447 --> 00:33:19.094
um he's doing something really clever he's pointing towards stories in the old testament where a man meets a woman by a well and then they get married so we have um isaac and rebecca uh in genesis 21 isaac's representative finds rebecca at a well

91
00:33:19.094 --> 00:33:35.227
And then they get married. You have Jacob and Rachel in Genesis 29. They meet at a well and then they get married. And you have Moses and Sipporah in Exodus 2. They meet at a well and then they get married. So John is really interestingly being like,

92
00:33:36.239 --> 00:34:03.256
Come on guys, what do you think is going to happen here? So he's alluding to this like marriage scene between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. And of course, like the difference between the Samaritan woman and those other women is that it's specifically mentioned in Rachel's case in particular, like that Rachel was a virgin. And yet we know that this woman has a past full of pain and hurt. So it's like she is the inappropriate option.

93
00:34:03.256 --> 00:34:21.683
Do you know what I mean? Like in, like in contrast to someone like Rebecca or Rachel or Zipporah. And yet there's like this betrothal scene being set up between her and Jesus. Now her and Jesus aren't actually going to get married. It's more like, you know, sometimes we, we talk about Jesus as the bridegroom and we talk about the church as the bride of Christ.

94
00:34:21.683 --> 00:34:46.760
So it's this idea that Jesus is about to form a union with this woman and through here with his whole church. And it's like covenanted. It's like signed, sealed, delivered. Like it's done. And it's going to move like it's going to move the story on. Because every time that one of those other couples got married, Rebecca and Isaac, Rachel and Jacob, Moses and Sephora, they get married and then they move the story of God on.

95
00:34:46.760 --> 00:35:11.245
yeah it's like a it's like a change moment it's like okay and now that here we go god's about to do something so john is setting it up of like this is about to move the story on jesus meeting this woman at this well is about to move the story on in a significant way it's about to change things it's about to like propel the purposes of god throughout the earth yeah and so all of that to say that i think

96
00:35:11.245 --> 00:35:32.120
I think I speculate. I look forward to finding out the answer one day, maybe. But that's what happened, that things change dramatically. And that this union between here and Jesus and then through here, community and Jesus. And then through us and Jesus is like the outcome of this conversation at the well.

97
00:35:32.795 --> 00:35:48.235
Are there other sort of references to the Old Testament in this conversation? Because one thing we haven't actually spoken about is Jesus talking about living water. Yes. And that's something I want to ask you.

98
00:35:48.235 --> 00:36:03.895
This is kind of switching my question. I have two questions. We're asking the living question, living water one sounds a little more specific. But when he talks about living water, would she be confused by what that means? How would that have sounded to a first century woman?

99
00:36:04.233 --> 00:36:32.414
Yeah, that's a really good question. So yeah, so she, Jesus asks her for water. That was his opening line. He's like, give me a drink. And she's like, you can't ask me for a drink. Well, she actually says, how can you, a Jew, ask me a Samaritan for water? Just really highlighting those differences. Like if anyone was unsure, this is not okay. And then he says, if you knew who was asking you, you would ask me for water because I have living water. Mm-hmm.

100
00:36:32.414 --> 00:37:01.051
And of course, what he means by that is like his very presence, his very life, his very self, like Holy Spirit, right? Like life with him, eternal life, that all of this is encapsulated in this metaphor of living water. And yeah, she gets confused because she's like, well, where is this? Because it would actually be really handy if I didn't have to, if I didn't have to come out here every day. Yeah, because Jesus specifically says, you'll have a sip of this and you'll never be thirsty again. And she's like, well,

101
00:37:01.051 --> 00:37:17.032
It would take me so much time. Show it to me. So she does immediately get confused. She thinks he's talking about something physical, like a physical well of water, like something from a theory story almost, isn't it? Like it's like something out of Narnia, like this drink and you'll never need to drink again. Yeah.

102
00:37:17.032 --> 00:37:40.707
it's kind of like she slowly but surely realizes almost as the audience do that what jesus is offering is like life and life in its fullest life and life eternal life and life never ending that like that's the offer i love the way that he uses water for that because if you think about it like we as humans we have a billion differences like

103
00:37:40.707 --> 00:38:03.995
There are so many ways in which we are different. There are so many examples that Jesus could have used, so many metaphors that might make total sense to one set of people and no sense at all to another set of people. But like, what's the one or one of the, what's one of the few things that every human being who has ever been alive or ever will be alive needs to literally stay alive? Just a bit of H2O.

104
00:38:03.995 --> 00:38:33.222
yeah like being bit of water like being thirsty tell you what while we're asking yeah go yeah like it's the most universal experience is to feel thirsty and so he's chiming into that thing that we all know what it feels like which is to feel desperate for something which is to literally feel thirsty for something and he's chiming into that and then he's really poetically really creatively saying like

105
00:38:33.222 --> 00:38:59.294
you are thirsty for me you need me like you need water i am as essential to you as h2 sweet h2i just a bit like i will i keep you alive like water keeps you alive i sustain you like water sustains you like if we go i wrote this in my doctorate but i can't remember the details of it but in my doctorate i literally say if you go so and so without water you feel ill if you go so and so you're unconscious if you go this you're dead

106
00:38:59.294 --> 00:39:16.237
It's like so, like pull water out of your life and you will soon face the deadly consequences. And like Jesus is attaching that level of like necessity to himself. It's a reoccurring theme in John, isn't it? Because he talks about it in John 7? Yeah.

107
00:39:16.237 --> 00:39:36.048
Yeah, yeah, yeah. John 7? I think that's right. Yeah. It's a recurring theme in John. Yeah. But John is picking up that it's a recurring theme in the Old Testament. This idea of water being at God's command. You know, there's that psalm of David as dears pant for streams of water. So my soul longs for you, my God.

108
00:39:36.048 --> 00:39:56.450
So there's this real theme throughout like the Hebrew Bible, throughout the Old Testament of our very bodies, like craving God, needing God, thirsting for God and the kind of desperation, like when you're absolutely gasping for a drink of water and Jesus is just bringing all of that imagery to mind. Like it's very...

109
00:39:56.450 --> 00:40:18.961
what's the word i want to use i very tangible very bodily i really like that wow super evocative yeah that's exactly what it is that is so that is so beautiful thank you so much for everything that you've shared but i feel like i've learned so much and i haven't stopped smiling this whole podcast

110
00:40:18.961 --> 00:40:48.087
it's really fun bring more but more smiley bible studies bible studies yeah but before we wrap up one final question for you which is what um applications like practical applications would you give to our audience coming away from studying this passage specifically around um how we see the women at the world's response and just how jesus is in this passage um how can

111
00:40:48.172 --> 00:41:04.321
Yeah, that's such a lovely question. I mean, I'll start with the Samaritan woman and then wrap up with just like some of the lovely glimpses of Jesus that it gives us. But the Samaritan woman, like I'm just so struck, so struck with...

112
00:41:04.321 --> 00:41:33.565
her invitation to her community the way it is a come and see invitation the way it's an invitation into something she's already experiencing and i think that that's the most beautiful way to think about how we can speak to others about jesus it's just come and see what i'm already experiencing like come and see what's captivating me come and see what's healing me come and see what's giving me hope like i'll come with you like come with me it's so relational yeah yeah

113
00:41:33.565 --> 00:41:50.761
And then it's like this trust that she has that if they just come and see Jesus, he will do the rest. Because she does, it's like, come and see a man who's told me everything I've ever done. It's not let me tell you about him, it's come and see him for yourself. We can have this thing in our heads of like, we need to get people to a place of believing in Jesus. Yeah.

114
00:41:50.761 --> 00:42:19.533
It's like, actually, if we just invite them to come and see and trust that as soon as they glimpse him, like they will have like a response that's similar to the Samaritan people where they say, we no longer believe just because of what you said. That's to the Samaritan woman. Now we have heared for ourselves and we know that this man is really the savior of the world. It's the most beautiful, beautiful response where it's like, we were intrigued. We followed you out here. We've seen him for ourselves. Oh my gosh. Like, okay.

115
00:42:19.533 --> 00:42:49.520
We're sold. We are sold. And then again, like that's the first time that Jesus is called the savior of the world. And I think that's what it shows to me. Again, talking about this point of disqualification, the Samaritan people will have heard again and again and again why they would be disqualified from whatever God had in store, whatever his plan was. They would have heard again and again that they'd got this wrong and that wrong and they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, belonged to the wrong tribe of people, lived on the wrong side of the border, like all of this stuff.

116
00:42:49.520 --> 00:43:16.435
and yet it's them that that first declare you are the savior of the world and that beautiful savior of the world like jesus like there is no one disqualified like there is nothing personal about ourselves but there is nothing like cultural about like where we happen to find ourselves that you're the savior of the world like no fence keeps you out do you know what i mean like that they have that clarity

117
00:43:16.435 --> 00:43:45.038
That they're like, we were told you belonged to this group of people, like on this side of this line. And we have come to see that you're the savior of us. You're the savior of them. You're like unity. All of a sudden, like immediate unity among people who we're divided. And I just, I mean, that is who we know Jesus to be. And it's like the most beautiful way to end the scene. Like, can you think of like a...

118
00:43:45.038 --> 00:44:01.930
a better credit roll moment like i can't my the best films can't touch that no they can't yeah oh thanks john thanks jesus do you know how many times like during my doctor i would just end the day and be like

119
00:44:02.268 --> 00:44:28.593
Thanks, Jonas. Thanks, Jesus. Amen. Wow. Well, Belle, thank you so much for all the wisdom that you've shared with us this podcast. Really blessed me. And I'm sure that it's blessed our listeners. So guys, I hope that you have a wonderful rest of your day, night. Those are the only two options. Those are the only options. Where else were you going? I don't know. Day or night. It's like evening after me. Yeah.

120
00:44:28.593 --> 00:44:48.067
But we hope that you've learned something new today. I know that I have. Thank you, Belle, so much for coming on. My pleasure. It's been an honour. So, guys, yeah, leave a comment below, maybe drop a little water comment, well comment, a stone. But be blessed and we'll see you in the next one. Bye.