WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.031 --> 00:00:29.950
No, Prime said he could walk back on at Netflix, and I said that that's not a good situation, right? Just because I could walk on to my local high school varsity team doesn't mean that they were going to win state champs, okay? We're not going for state championships here. We're just going on state. We're going for steady paycheck. We're going for steady paycheck. The bar's low. Steady paycheck. That's a respectable goal, Trash. That's a respectable goal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2
00:00:30.085 --> 00:00:52.242
I like how TJ's just hating on my very reasonable and respectable goals. What do you mean you want steady income, idiot? Stupid idiot. Then why do you start streaming? Well, technically, if you leave Prime, then everything just falls apart. There's a lot of downstream implications there. That's true. Domino effect here.

3
00:00:52.647 --> 00:01:15.040
Alright. I have been kind of brutal on X lately, too. I was thinking about putting in blockers for my own tweets for us to read, but I didn't know if that was allowed. What was that? Like, get yourself a ring first, kid? Yeah, I know. Casey, you like this one. Okay, Casey. Frank, can you show it to chat, please? I saw it. I already saw this. Oh, okay. I saw it.

4
00:01:15.513 --> 00:01:39.593
I forgot, what was the original post? We're going to bring it up either way. Oh, don't worry. We'll get the original. We'll get the original. Also, for added context for this, which is unaware for everybody who saw this tweet, but good lore, because when I told Kayleen about this tweet, she was like, Oh, is that the guy that we were making fun of for not having a girlfriend a while ago?

5
00:01:39.593 --> 00:01:58.223
because he was sad yeah it was yes we he was like i went to a party and a girl said my arms were too big and i said generational fumble basically and we we were giving him a hard time and then this this came up so prime go ahead why don't you take it away

6
00:01:58.223 --> 00:02:17.309
All right, so Creatine has his name. Literally, his name is Creatine Cycles. You can imagine. Dudes will be skinny and be concerned with open source versus closed source models. Bro, you're worried about the wrong weights. By the way, bang or tweet? That's a good tweet. I love this tweet. I love this tweet. It's fantastic.

7
00:02:17.309 --> 00:02:30.016
No complaints. I don't know why you're picking on this guy, T. That's a great tweet. Because I love him. T.J. comes in with a guy has a girlfriend for three hours and starts posting like this. Wintering before you talk, kid.

8
00:02:30.337 --> 00:02:57.978
Br- Brutal Boggagg I don't know what the meme is called, but it's that one guy that's just like Brutal Savage Rekt That is what happened there Wow, what do you say after that one? Brutal, Savage, Rekt Absolutely taken down That's an old Dota 2 meme That meme, that's what just happened right there Absolutely destroyed, poor Creatine He was at the... in San Francisco, right?

9
00:02:58.197 --> 00:03:19.932
Yep. We just did a podcast with him. And Prime, I'm not going to do any spoilers, but Prime just showed up a lot of different people. Oh, nice. We're doing meme review. Yes. Yeah, we're doing another meme review. TJ's been on a heater lately when it comes to puns. Why is... Yeah. Go ahead. On the last one, though, I did want to say one thing.

10
00:03:20.219 --> 00:03:40.823
Here we see the elusive programmer, a simple creature that spends most of its time working alone, often in darkness. But what's this? Someone being wrong on the internet. Our coder springs into action, reaching top speeds of 120 words per minute before flash! A light mode website. The natural enemy of these code lovers stuns our friend. The chase is called off. We'll have to get them next time.

11
00:03:43.169 --> 00:04:12.481
When not on their computers, they can spend hours drawing crude symbols on something they call whiteboards. Researchers have discovered thousands of dialects, often with more than a dozen used in a single office. However, no linguist has yet deciphered what their purpose is. Vain creatures, their bodies have evolved over a millennia to be able to sit in unusual postures while looking at themselves online. This will often last for many hours, using the excuse they're waiting for code review, repressed to why they're so inactive.

12
00:04:13.882 --> 00:04:41.692
And finally, after a long day of accomplishing very little, are keyboard warriors ready for bed? Quick read and it's lights out. Good night, little coder. So how do I sleep so well at night? Well, I have Sentry to help me crush those bugs. And I'm not talking about like little teeny tiny South Dakota bugs that die in the winter. I'm talking about big mean jungle bugs. And I'm not scared of any of them, by the way, just...

13
00:04:42.181 --> 00:05:04.878
But I can squash those bugs with Seer by Century. It's the only thing I probably will have to add to this entire discussion, and it's not very good. I wanted to find out who the guy was that you were mogging there, TJ. Oh, Jaden? I clicked on it, and the only thing I saw was him with some other dudes making a steak.

14
00:05:05.401 --> 00:05:26.512
And it was not how you make a steak. I was like, okay, you guys need to go to cooking school or something. Finish in the oven, my man. Do not. This is going to be tough. Finish in the oven? Wait a minute. Yeah, yeah. You finish in the oven for sure, man. I cook a lot of steak.

15
00:05:26.512 --> 00:05:43.437
Well, Casey, right? It depends on the thickness of the cut and all that. You don't have to finish in the oven if you have, say, you're doing a ribeye, but it's only like an inch thick. I mean, three minutes each side on a good cast iron pan heated to 500 degrees. Charcoal, baby. It is charcoal.

16
00:05:43.437 --> 00:05:58.658
What are you talking about, Casey? You're going to have a nice, perfect pink throughout the whole thing with a good three-minute sit with tinfoil on it. Don't listen to Prime. Prime posted a steak one day, and it was like a gray steak. It was my first steak ever cooked. That was my first steak ever cooked. Now my steaks are awesome.

17
00:05:58.658 --> 00:06:24.477
I am a big fan of extremely controlled cooking. So, like, I never, pretty much never cook a steak without an in-steak thermometer. Because otherwise, you do not nail it. You do not nail it. Because there's differences. You've got to go out live, dude. Unless you have exactly the same steak as last time, you will get a slightly wrong cook if you're not paying close attention. I think you're wrong.

18
00:06:24.477 --> 00:06:44.930
I think you're wrong. I think the variation gives spice of life. Okay? Well, obviously, the solution to this is when we do an in-person one, we'll also record each of you guys making a steak. And then me and Trash will blind taste test which one is better. By the way, are we doing this in September?

19
00:06:45.959 --> 00:07:09.027
I don't know, are we? That's like next month. I thought we said October at Halloween was the last time I heard anything. Well, we're definitely doing a Halloween one. We need to figure that out. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, that's a good point, Trash. Trash wanted to go to a haunted house, right? I can drive this. Trash wanted to go to a haunted house. I can drive this. Trash wants to go to a haunted house. Okay. Okay, we'll figure this out.

20
00:07:09.854 --> 00:07:30.222
But doing a steak cook-off and me and Trash will judge. I love this idea. We can do it in a haunted house. You know? Two-thirds, one stone. Maybe the steaks are haunted. Two-thirds, one stone. Great. All right. Well, this was absolutely illuminating. Let's get back to the stand-up. Great blockers, TJ. You didn't do my second one. You didn't do my second joke.

21
00:07:30.222 --> 00:07:50.050
True, true, true, true. We just brought it up but then didn't go all the way there. All right, so for those that don't know, Nate McGrady used to be an engineer at X and now currently is an engineer over at Vercel. And he says, why is soldering so hard? And TJ responds with, God gives the hardest battles to his toughest solders. Yep, yep, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. That's pretty good. That is really good.

22
00:07:50.253 --> 00:08:05.660
Completely underrated tweet, by the way. This should have a thousand, minimum. Well, yours has two and a half thousand-ish. Yes, it's true. It's crazy that I should not have ratioed you on this. I should not have been allowed to ratio.

23
00:08:05.795 --> 00:08:34.077
I just wanted the joke to get out to more dads everywhere. I don't need the likes at the end of the day. It's just making sure that dad jokes are still represented out on the timeline. Which will directly increase the ratio of LLMs learning dad jokes. We want LLMs to make a lot of dad jokes in the future. And if we don't get these dad jokes into the timeline prevalently, the LLMs will not understand that they're very important and should be made frequently.

24
00:08:34.077 --> 00:08:49.079
I'm not sure if they can't. Honestly, I'm not sure if they can. We've been doing some experiments, and like the word wacky, 100% of the time, LLMs will go, oh, you want something wacky? A librarian lighthouse milking the sky. It's the same thing.

25
00:08:49.079 --> 00:09:08.958
It's like almost the same thing every single time. It says that specific combination of things? It's always milking something. It involves a cartographer or a librarian or a lighthouse, and something is flooded. Prove it. You found like a collapse in the latent space. You really want me to prove it? Prove it.

26
00:09:08.958 --> 00:09:36.937
I got Chippity on right now. What's the prompt? Guys, guys, here we go. We're doing it right now. We're doing it right now. Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. Here we go. I'm going to give you guys. It takes a moment. It takes a moment. It takes a village. It takes a village to create an idiot. It takes a lighthouse librarian. All right, here we go. So I'm launching Steam for just a quick second. Don't worry. Chad already knows about what's going to be going down on Friday. So here's a quick palatro. Nice. All right.

27
00:09:37.831 --> 00:10:00.950
Oh, this is why you've been seeing this. Okay. Okay, so one of the things we've made in Bellatro is called charades. And the charades is like, pick some wacky, you know, cartoon, whatever. It uses the term wacky. And by using the term wacky, it is the same charade almost universally. So here we go. Here comes the charade. And the charade, of course, it's a lighthouse. Okay.

28
00:10:01.625 --> 00:10:18.112
My guess is it's milking the sky. Watch this. Watch this. Lighthouse milking the sky. Right. Nobody knows what's happening right now, by the way. It's not even clear that ChatGPT is involved in this situation, okay? That's fine. That's fine. We're not even going to tell. I'm just proving to you guys.

29
00:10:18.112 --> 00:10:34.430
Antique lighthouse keeper milking a cloud during an eclipse. I absolutely called some part of it. I got 11% malt. So for those that don't know, what happened there is I played a quick game of charades with ChatGPT, generating a sweet image for me to be able to look at and then guess what it was thinking.

30
00:10:34.430 --> 00:10:56.063
And that image, of course, was this right here, which was that, which was the lighthouse. I could tell it was milking because there's this small little arm going up to right here. Now, as far as the eclipse goes, I really don't see the eclipse in this situation. But we'll, you know. I have a question. Sorry. Why is it Bellatro skin? Like, why did Bellatro have to come up? I was going to say, Brian.

31
00:10:56.063 --> 00:11:23.502
Why couldn't you just type it into a normal prompt? Like, what? Do you have your chat DBT wired through Bellatro, like, skinned, like, presentation or something? What's going on? I'm so confused. So I already have the prompt all built into Bellatro, and then it gives you a picture, which I think makes it more fun to see. Wait, built into actual Bellatro? Yeah, we're in Bellatro right now. And that was a strange game. I didn't want to give... I'm not giving any details about this out, okay? Okay, all right.

32
00:11:23.772 --> 00:11:40.900
I just simply said, you'll get it. He's trying to become the Primogen legendary game mod developer. You may have heard of my game modding. Anyways, on Friday, we'll be doing a very severe modding session. Very severe. I like it.

33
00:11:41.525 --> 00:12:05.521
Yes. So I'm very excited about him. Movie trivia turns out to be very hard, too. If you ask Chachi PT... Here, in fact, let me just see if we can do it. Someone was like, Bellatro is a based LLM harness. I love the concept of being like, oh, what are you programming in? Oh, I run all my answers through Bellatro. When the hand's really good, they're crushing it. Yeah.

34
00:12:05.521 --> 00:12:30.007
I do. I do love that. But when you ask ChachiPT for a fun movie trivia for a movie made between 1990 to like up to like 2010, it needs to be a popular movie and you need to give a trivia. Almost. I forgot I had it down. It was like I did it like 50 times and 49 of the 50 times it was who directed The Matrix.

35
00:12:30.007 --> 00:12:58.694
Every single time. It loves The Matrix. Just who directed it? That was the only question, not other questions about The Matrix. The only other question that I ended up getting once, which was, who played Neo in the famous movie The Matrix? So it only asked The Matrix at all. Like, there were no non-Matrix questions. That's because I asked for a famous movie between 1990s to the double zeros. It didn't happen. Has anyone ever heard of Home Alone, for example? Like, what?

36
00:12:59.555 --> 00:13:27.685
How's The Matrix the only famous movie in the 1990s? Pulp Fiction? Anyone? Like, what the hell? Prime has a chat GPT memory that says, The Matrix is the best movie of all time. I'm so based. Call me Neo. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh, Titanic. I totally forgot about Titanic. There's so many famous movies that are, like, in the 90s. That's why I won't go on a cruise, because of that movie.

37
00:13:27.685 --> 00:13:52.795
Really? It wasn't the cruise that got you? I got the cruise that got you. I got the cruise that got you. I got the cruise that got you. There's like a scene where the guy falls off and hits the propeller and spins like 30 times. I was like, that's not happening to me. They now carry enough lifeboats. That's like the whole thing. They fixed it afterwards. They say they do, Teej. But do we really know? I counted. We were on a cruise. Kayleen and I were walking around. We counted how many there were.

38
00:13:53.335 --> 00:14:07.645
Didn't seem like enough, but I trust them. That there were ones that I missed. Yeah, you're like, shouldn't the lifeboats have to be sort of similarly sized to the boat? I mean, really? They should just have two cruciates of the same size next to each other.

39
00:14:09.974 --> 00:14:36.063
That's exactly what they should do. That's the only way I'm going to have a cruise ship. There's going to be two Titanic's going right next to each other. Yes. That's what I'm saying. Wait, wait, wait. I like this. What if they had, you could ride on any number in the train and each one was like slightly smaller, but you could kind of pick and you're like, I'm going to be on the third. The presidential style. Right. So then you had to kind of like multiple backups. Cause what happens if the second one fails, Trash?

40
00:14:36.907 --> 00:15:06.893
I don't know. Keep going. You gotta keep going. I feel like there's an entire suite of cruise, like, architectures, if you will, based on computer programming, so you just did the big iron fault tolerant one, where it's like, we just have three Titanics and they just sail next to each other and it's fine. And then there's the microservices one, where there's just a crap ton of tiny ass butts that everyone's on, and you constantly have to dingy between them to get shit, because it's all...

41
00:15:06.893 --> 00:15:36.188
I like the idea of having like a raid version, which is that you have the same attraction multiple times on different ships, so in case one goes down you can still visit all the different attractions. Except it's like raid 5 or something, it's raid where the band that's playing, there's like three of the instruments on each boat, so if any one boat goes down you still have all the instruments, but if two boats go down you're missing the drums at that point.

42
00:15:36.188 --> 00:16:05.365
I was just thinking there has to be some joke in there about, like, all the microservices being deployed, but they're all fighting over which port they get to run in. Yeah, well, that's what happens when they come to dock, right? All these boats are, like, trying to get a door in the can. That's why it's called Docker. Yes. Finally. Something makes sense. There will be some attraction that are like, man, this one's a really chatty service. It just won't shut because the dinghies are constantly going to the one. We really screwed up on this one.

43
00:16:06.833 --> 00:16:23.776
All right, ladies and gentlemen. Ladies and gentlemen. Hey, speaking of Codebergs, huh? Oh, good segue. Holy transition, bro. Dang. That's good. That is more segue than the little scooters that people ride around. This is true.

44
00:16:23.776 --> 00:16:43.452
Speaking of Codebergs, today we have an excellent episode. For those that are not in the know, we have with us, as always, TeejDV, famous pun maker, trash dev, famous snack eater, and Casey Miratori, legendary game developer, and, in fact, even more famous snack influencer than trash.

45
00:16:43.452 --> 00:17:07.482
Leading to sales and thank yous. That hurts. That does hurt. I know. A man trains his whole life just to be beaten by a rookie. It sucks. I know. That was like, I was pulling some amateur stuff and it just, you know, it hit. I'm sorry, Trash. I apologize. Trash after that episode goes, I fear not the man who has eaten 10,000 snacks, but one man who has eaten one snack a thousand times.

46
00:17:09.423 --> 00:17:38.093
You are now becoming a weird Confucius. Tiege is the oracle. I'm expecting you on this show to never say anything except for just come in with this well-crafted one line of wisdom and then come back out again. Do you not know the Bruce Lee quote? I don't fear a man that knows a thousand kicks. I fear the man who's practiced one kick a thousand times.

47
00:17:38.245 --> 00:18:04.081
There's no way that's a Bruce Lee quote. Are you an idiot? He's very tiny. I'm talking about Bruce Lee. I can't believe I don't know this. Hold on time. I gotta look this up. I don't know anything about Bruce Lee. There we go. Let's help, dang it. Quote here. There we go. Bruce Lee's famous kick quote is, I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.

48
00:18:06.258 --> 00:18:32.819
Okay. There you go. Okay. All I do is Bruce Lee jokes. You know, like, what's Bruce Lee's favorite drink? What? Water! Oh, my God. You know? Is that supposed to be Mai Tai, but with what Tai? Dude, I was staring at Tisha's tile the whole time as I said it. Just waiting to see what he would do. It's your run!

49
00:18:33.798 --> 00:18:52.495
You never did that? I did that like my whole childhood. That was like the joke. Oh my god. Wow. Do you think there's any chance at all that Prime could do an intro for the show today? What are we giving that for odds, for over-unders?

50
00:18:52.698 --> 00:19:09.370
I just bought a very expensive ping pong paddle. Okay, so no. The answer is we're already no. Prime, can we reveal what you're about to do, though? I think everyone who you're about to do the reveal to isn't a listener of the pod, so I think it's fine.

51
00:19:11.294 --> 00:19:25.621
Oh, yes. Okay, okay. Okay. So for those that don't know, I have a friend. His name is Doug Doug. And we've been playing pickleball, and he keeps beating me at pickleball. And I told him that I used to play ping pong at a pretty serious level. And so...

52
00:19:25.942 --> 00:19:52.638
But I said I quit because I broke my paddle about 12 years ago. Because I was ping-ponging so hard, Doug. How do you break the paddle? That I broke the paddle. Yeah, I was too broke to afford a new one. He's a different man with the paddle, okay? Yeah. And so I quit playing after that, after losing my paddle. And I played in college every single day. I played four hours a day for years. I was really into ping-pong. Famous story is I went to China.

53
00:19:52.638 --> 00:20:11.555
And I had a line of Chinese students out the door, and I'd beat them one at a time, and no one could believe I could play ping pong that well. What? What are you talking about? That's a real story. This is not a real story. That's a real story. I'm not kidding. I played like 150 people in a row. I played all day, like 10 hours straight. This is not a real story.

54
00:20:11.555 --> 00:20:33.037
What am I learning right now? What is happening right now? Is this like a Forrest Gump kind of trick you're playing? I was seriously into ping pong. Okay, I was seriously into ping pong for a while. The person I used to play against would help train and practice the people that would go and attempt to qualify and qualified for the Olympics. And I'd play him. I scored like three points on him once.

55
00:20:33.037 --> 00:20:55.143
I was so stoked. I need footage. All right, so never play prime at ping pong is what we've learned. Well, the thing is I literally have not swung a paddle in 12 years. I think you're probably still going to be pretty good is my guess. I am terrible now. I'm terrible now. Anyway, so I got a new paddle. I'm really ready to go play. And so I'm friends with a man named Doug Doug. And he's been beating me at pickleball, which is like big ping pong.

56
00:20:55.143 --> 00:21:23.797
But it's not quite the same. You can't get a good spin. And so I said, okay, let's play some ping pong. And he's super stoked about it. But I did warn him, like, I used to be good, but I haven't played in a long time, which means I'll probably just overshoot the table over and over again. Because, you know, old muscle memory, but with no talent, turns into just disaster, right? Right. So the goal is that when we start warming up, I'll just play a quick one with him. I'm going to play left-handed. Okay? And then after, like, we kind of play, hit it back and forth a little bit of time. I'm going to go like this. Doug?

57
00:21:24.117 --> 00:21:26.834
I hate to tell you this, but I'm not left-handed.

58
00:21:27.053 --> 00:21:55.133
And then we're going to go in, and then we're going to get serious. But didn't you just kind of, now he just knows that that's going to happen? Like, you literally just told it to everyone in the world. No, no, it's okay. Nobody tell him. No one's going to tell him. Don't tell Doug. What if he's watching? Publish his podcast. Turn off the screen. He's not watching. He's not watching. Okay. Does he live near you? How do you guys play ping pong together? I'm going to go to L.A. here shortly with the family, because we have a friend of my father-in-law.

59
00:21:55.859 --> 00:22:23.517
has a beachfront property, and he let us borrow it for 10 days or 8 days or something like that. So we're going to go as a family and go stay down there, and that is 20 minutes away from where he is at, or 30 minutes or 40 minutes. Or some amount of time. I don't know how LA works. The main point was just the princess. We're about to princess bride him, dude. I can tell you how LA works. The way LA works is if it's 40 minutes away, that probably means it's just down the street a little bit. Yes, that's why I'm like...

60
00:22:23.517 --> 00:22:46.248
It's only three miles, Doug, and he's just like, you poor, poor. Yeah, it's like, wait till you see what you're going to be sitting in for traffic. Okay, so anyways, so welcome to the standup. Today I have with me THDV, Trash Dev, and Casey Miratory, legendary game dev and snack influencer, and we are going to be talking about Codeberg today. For those that are not familiar, Codeberg is an awesome.

61
00:22:46.248 --> 00:23:04.945
online code hosting platform with a focus on free and open source software it is part of their mission a big part of their stuff is that people who open source their code should have a extremely permissive license for everybody to be able to enjoy and bask in the glories of open source software uh with that said

62
00:23:04.945 --> 00:23:22.715
There's been a recent proliferation of LLM-generated code in which is putting strain on anyone that hosts code, i.e. GitHub. GitHub has had a lot of issues, and I think we're all familiar with GitHub's issues. Well, recently, CodeBurk came out and said they will no longer allow mostly...

63
00:23:22.715 --> 00:23:44.568
Vibe-coded projects to be a part of CodebergOnline.net, right? So you can no longer host your Vibe-coded stuff on Codeberg. They gave a whole series of reasons as to why, and that is what we're going to discuss today. Is this a good move by Codeberg? Are we happy with it? Will this work out for them, or is this terrible?

64
00:23:44.568 --> 00:24:07.602
All right, so there we go. So this is the addendum that they made. You must not share projects that mostly consist of code written by generative AI tools, including services such as Claude, OpenAI Codex. Such projects have unclear copyright status. See the requirements in Section 2.1.1, Section 2.1.3, and furthermore, have little safeguards to ensure that they do not include harmful code.

65
00:24:07.602 --> 00:24:27.329
Those other sections, they're just directly above saying, like, hey, we have certain standards. We want certain things to be – like, if you are posting a project, we want it to be this type of permissive license. You cannot guarantee that by having an LLM is what they're effectively attempting to say. So this is the line that caused the controversy that everybody is freaking out about.

66
00:24:27.329 --> 00:24:47.275
Okay, we're getting a 504. So they might actually like, they might be getting hammered right now. Oh, yes. Yes, we got it. And so they also posted a blog post and they had a nice little image right here, which it looks like they've also just recently deleted, which is super unfortunate because it was right here within the first couple. But it showed the actual voting.

67
00:24:47.275 --> 00:25:03.357
It showed the actual voting. So that has been somehow removed or changed. But the voting goes that two thirds of all Codeberg people supported the no LLM policies, whereas about one third said, hey, we don't support the LLM stuff. You should be able to have LLM projects.

68
00:25:03.357 --> 00:25:18.882
I could be misremembering, but I'd add one caveat to that, which is it wasn't two thirds of Codberg people. It was two thirds of people who voted, which is 50 percent of Codberg people. So it's kind of two thirds of 50 percent. Yes, yes. Sorry. It was it was of the. Yes.

69
00:25:18.882 --> 00:25:46.287
The voting class of Codeberg, because there is two different classes of Codeberg. There's the people that can just host a small project. And, of course, the people that are members that are involved that have voting rights and all that. So that side of things. Well, I mean, I think it's 50 percent of the – they were talking about how many people participated, which may just be people didn't vote. Like, you had rights to vote but didn't vote. I don't know. I'm just saying they were sort of – it was not clear exactly how many people out of all of the people it was. But just a slight caveat.

70
00:25:46.608 --> 00:26:05.238
Their blog post went on and shared several points about what exactly is their reasoning behind. And a few of the big reasons, of course, is that LLMs put a natural strain on hardware costs. So the replacement of their hardware and them being fully self-hosted is being directly impacted, going from 700 non-freedom units euros.

71
00:26:05.238 --> 00:26:32.204
to 3500s for a SSD is directly impacting how much hardware they can buy. That's realistic. Second, it impacts actual infrastructure because there's a higher rate of commits, more code being generated, more of the platform is being used by people who can just generate huge amounts of code and it's largely untouched. Their big argument was that you have a single piece of code which is tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of lines long and it's just one person interacting with it

72
00:26:32.204 --> 00:27:02.191
Whereas something like, say, Ghosty or some other project that's hosted on Codeberg, they have tons and tons of people interacting with it. It creates a very healthy community. And so it's like disproportionately costing them more for something that creates no community. And so they're like, we don't really like that. And then thirdly, they said, hey, the copyright status, we don't really know about that. And then fourth, they said, hey, we really don't like single-use software, meaning like you shouldn't generate something for your exact need. Instead, it should be built upon something that a bunch of people should be able to have benefits.

73
00:27:02.191 --> 00:27:02.832
platform.

74
00:27:03.912 --> 00:27:32.532
So I believe I have given the rough outline as to everything. There's also a very lengthy blog statement, which is called Protecting Our Floss Commons from LLMs, that was posted. Yes, here we go. And you should have the link to that, because that's pretty helpful, because it kind of goes through all of the issues that they were concerned about and kind of explained their goals, which is pretty important to understand, like, the motivation of a terms of service change, obviously. Yeah.

75
00:27:32.532 --> 00:27:52.647
So that was pretty – I found that pretty helpful to just, like, know why they were doing it, right? Yep. I tried to explain most of their reasons. That's what I said. I feel like you got most of that in your summer. I missed a few. I missed a few for sure. But I really – Sure. Yeah. I missed this part, which I don't think I did very well. Let me say the last part, which was losing trust in each other was another big point, which is when you go to a –

76
00:27:52.647 --> 00:28:19.023
As a maintainer, when you open up a project, if you have notifications and it turns out the person on the other side, often well-meaning, as they say, put in low effort pull requests, it kind of builds into you a bias thinking that all pull requests and all new people are just going to be a bunch of LLM or low effort people. And it makes you more resistant to new people coming into your community. It makes it harder for people that are active in your community to be able to really reach you and have good discussions because now everything's being passed through this filter of, oh, it's just an LLM being bothersome.

77
00:28:19.023 --> 00:28:40.943
And so it kind of tears down communities and creates a more toxic place. Whereas if you didn't have that, you'd have good conversation, much more meaningful conversation. At least that is their intended argument. Good summary, Prime. Now, Prime, you are the one who wanted to talk about this originally. Yes. You were like, I want to talk about this. So maybe you could start by saying, why did you want to talk about it?

78
00:28:40.943 --> 00:28:59.303
For me, I will first start off with what I thought was their most interesting point, which was the last one that they said, which is the teardown of communities. I do think that there's something very interesting to that because I've noticed it a lot even just in my basic communication is that anytime I read something that's over three sentences long –

79
00:28:59.303 --> 00:29:17.663
I am now like more and more going, I think this person just generated this response because it's just like way too, it's just like way too superfluous. Like there's just, the language is all wrong. And it just like, and I realized that it makes me stop really reading a lot of people's responses. And it's kind of tearing down the community, whether I realized, like it wasn't,

80
00:29:17.663 --> 00:29:40.647
It was my favorite part of the four-part diagram, which is called an unknown known. I didn't know I knew it, but I just knew it inherently, and I just operate under this bias where I just don't even realize that I'm doing it to myself. Whereas I start looking at a lot of stuff and going, oh, this is just LLM generated without even giving them a fair shake or a really consideration to their argument. And I can see why this is actually tearing down –

81
00:29:40.985 --> 00:30:10.415
tearing down communities and Codeberg being a place that's probably much more tight knit than say GitHub. I bet you a lot of the maintainers of projects know other maintainers of project community is very, very important. And so I'm just curious, like how, is that something that they should be concerned about or is it better just to say, hey, we're growing and adapting to the ever-changing field of software engineering and we should just move away from this even though I can see why it's beneficial. I find this part at least very interesting or very unique.

82
00:30:11.512 --> 00:30:39.203
Yeah, I mean, I guess one thing I would say is reading through their blog post, I didn't really hit any part where I was like, well, that doesn't make any sense. Like it kind of was just like very reasonable. Now I don't know for a fact that the reasons that they're giving are the real reasons like or whether they just hate LLMs or something and just we're going to ban them either way. You know, I don't know whether it was rationalization or whether it was actually like these are the motivating factors.

83
00:30:39.203 --> 00:30:50.982
To me, it doesn't really matter. It's like the explanations they gave were very sound explanations. I felt like all of them were pretty reasonable. About the only thing that I would say as a slight counterpoint was I was like, well...

84
00:30:51.910 --> 00:31:15.383
You know, could you just turn this into a monetary policy? Could it just be that, well, if you want to do this, like if you want to use LLMs to generate a lot of code, we're going to charge you a lot of money. Like that's going to cost you. So like you can't use this service for free. You're going to have to pay us if you submit LLM generated stuff. You're already paying for the LLM. So, you know, whatever or something like that.

85
00:31:15.383 --> 00:31:42.097
Because at least that way it would be something where it could be adjusted. But I also understand the perspective of if they just don't want this, like if they're just like, we don't see this as being something we want to be involved with at all, then I can understand the policy. Because they're just basically saying, look, we don't want this at all. So we don't want to pessimize it. We don't want to reduce its use. We just want to get rid of it and have those people go somewhere else. Totally fine if that's their decision.

86
00:31:42.822 --> 00:31:53.538
I have a quick comment. So I thought the same thing as Casey said. I thought all of this blog post was good. I thought everything was written very well. I agreed with everything. What I can't get past is like,

87
00:31:55.748 --> 00:32:23.879
I don't understand how you can even enforce such a thing that they're saying here. So there's like a lot of like blurry lines where it's like, you can't have a project that's mostly created by like an AI LLM, which that just blurs the lines. Now it's like, well, who's deciding what's mostly or who's not? Like, it almost feels like you really can't really have a repo on Coburg unless you have like some like past reputation of being like some great open source person, like someone who's coming in, like it almost shuts off anybody new to like the space.

88
00:32:23.879 --> 00:32:46.762
because they have no previous credentials or anything like that. And if you can't prove that they didn't create with LLM, you're going to almost just assume, just kind of like what you said earlier, you almost just assume everyone's using LLM. I've never seen such detailed PR requests or PR descriptions until this past year. And every time I see a well-thought-out PR description, I'm like, I'm not reading it because it's slop.

89
00:32:46.762 --> 00:33:03.485
Which is funny because when I do it, I don't feel that way. I'm like, yeah, this is well detailed, but when someone does it to me, I get offended almost. I'm like, wow, you didn't take the time. So funny, this morning, I actually got one of my open source projects. I got a pull request, and it was definitely just auto-generated.

90
00:33:03.485 --> 00:33:24.443
And I was like almost pissed off when I got it. But at the same time, like this whole past week, I've been using LLMs to just like knock out a bunch of like tech debt. But for whatever reason, when I saw someone do it to me and it wasn't me doing it, I just got like super bad for some reason. I'm like, I'm going to close it. But yeah, I don't know. I can't explain the psychology there right now. It's weird.

91
00:33:25.456 --> 00:33:50.262
I think that's kind of a thing that is almost to be expected though, because everyone... This is common for humans, right? It's just a thing that everyone does, which is you believe that you are responsible when you use something. Like, I am a good driver and I drive responsibly, right? But these other people on the road... That's why I can text and drive, Casey. Yeah. Right?

92
00:33:50.262 --> 00:34:07.357
It's like, I can look at the map, but if someone else is doing that, they're just irresponsible and they're gonna kill somebody and whatever, right? And you can name just about anything. Gun ownership, drinking, whatever it is, drugs. It's always like, the people who think that they can do it responsibly,

93
00:34:07.357 --> 00:34:22.814
Don't just automatically then think, well, anyone can do it responsibly. They're like, no, everyone else could, right? LLMs feel a lot like that to me. I feel a lot... I feel sort of ambiently that people generally are like, I think...

94
00:34:22.814 --> 00:34:49.713
that AI is bad and that it's generating a lot of slop, but of course I use it and I use it really well and I make like good stuff with it. It's like, no, you probably make roughly the same stuff as everyone else. And you're just like downgrading what they're making and upgrading what you're making kind of unfairly, uh, because probably their stuff isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. And your stuff probably isn't as good as you're making it out to be. Right. Uh, and that's just how it goes, unfortunately. So I,

95
00:34:49.713 --> 00:35:05.862
I think you're touching on something very real. I don't think it's specific to AI, but I do think it probably is happening a lot right now. I think that summarizes my feelings exactly. No, sorry, Peach. I was going to say the other thing for like... Oh, go ahead, Trash. No, sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no. Go for it.

96
00:35:05.862 --> 00:35:23.378
Well, my last comment is after I read this, I almost felt like it was like a Mastodon Blue Sky blog post. And I was just like, wow, this is like very pretentious. Like, come on. But then I get it. Like after reading this blog article, I was like, OK, OK, this all makes sense. Like financially, too, it also makes sense. But.

97
00:35:23.378 --> 00:35:45.451
But I still feel like it's going to shut out a lot of like future, like open source creators that do use LLMs, but also use them responsibly. But to your point, Casey, it's like, how do we know they're easily responsible because I use it responsibly, you know? So it all just seems very hand wavy, not very enforceable and pretty much like you got to know somebody almost kind of thing, which I don't really like. I don't know.

98
00:35:45.873 --> 00:36:02.950
Teej, you were going to say something. Yeah, the thing I was going to say was it's, I think, similar to the thing you're saying, Casey, but maybe slightly different, too, is, like, for my code base, I don't care if I fill it up with trash. Right? Like, if I do something in my house and I scuff up the wall...

99
00:36:02.950 --> 00:36:18.003
I'm kind of like, well, that stinks. I wish I didn't scuff up the wall. But, like, if I was at my friend's house and I scuffed up their wall, I would feel, like, really bad. Because it's, like, their thing. Right? So I do think there's, like, a little bit of an asymmetry...

100
00:36:18.003 --> 00:36:45.155
there where like if I do something to someone else's repo, I do feel like I should do better than I would do on my own repo. Right? So I do think like at least for, I feel like a responsibility that like, oh, I'm going into your house. What's your rules? How do you do stuff? I'm going to do it your way. You leave shoes on. That's disgusting, but I'll do it at your house. My house, you're taking your shoes off. Okay. Everybody at the door. Okay. Reasonable.

101
00:36:45.863 --> 00:37:11.108
Okay, so I wanted to jump back on Trash. What were you saying? What did you just say? What was the – because I had a – oh, yeah. Okay, I got it. Ghosty. How does Ghosty work in this world? For those that don't know, Ghosty was a terminal. Started off being written by Mitchell Hashimoto in his retirement years and then gained popularity. He's unretired as of today, by the way. Yeah, he's unretired. He's back in the game.

102
00:37:11.108 --> 00:37:35.695
And over over the last like year and a half, he's been talking about how he uses AI all the time to generate patches and all that. Like, how do you even enforce the idea of mostly like why would Ghosty deserve a spot on Codeberg? Because we know at least one person committing to Codeberg uses AI regularly. Like, what is the what is the the mark of too much slop?

103
00:37:35.695 --> 00:37:51.777
Like, I don't know what that is. I kind of have something tangential to say. I don't think there is a way to know, but I have something sort of to add to that or to sort of – it's not really a pile-on, but it's like a thing that goes along with it, I think. Which is I think there's –

104
00:37:53.262 --> 00:38:16.465
Based on their blog post, they have a lot of goals. Like there were a lot of things outlined there, right? And I think there's a simpler version that has less goals. So if your goal is just that you want the projects to be good and you want them to work well and you want the system as a whole to work well, then really I think the only policy you probably need in that scenario is...

105
00:38:16.465 --> 00:38:39.112
No one should be able to tell this was done by an LLM. That's the goal, right? The goal should be I get the pull request and it's been looked over correctly. There's no obvious mistakes. The thing isn't too verbose. Like somebody prepared it so that it looks like a nice human generated pull request. And maybe it was generated largely by the LLM. But a human was there to make sure that you didn't get the slop, right?

106
00:38:39.112 --> 00:39:04.542
And so that's the real thing that a project that just doesn't want to drown in low-quality stuff should be concerned with, right? But then there's a separate thing where they've piled on all these other things, which I don't necessarily disagree with, so I'm not saying pile on in a bad sense. I'm just saying they've added a lot more past that baseline of just don't disrupt the service. They're basically saying they don't really want to invest time in...

107
00:39:04.542 --> 00:39:26.868
in the LLM sort of economy. They're saying they want to invest in people, right? I've heard this from multiple places. I believe this was the stated reason why Zig stopped accepting LLM-generated pull requests as well. Slop contributions and then exactly that. They basically said, I think Andrew Kelly literally said in an interview, he said something like,

108
00:39:26.868 --> 00:39:49.987
We want to invest in people who we believe will become future contributors to Zig. And we want those people to be spending a lot of time in the code. Again, don't know if that's the real reason or not. I can't like intuit or I can't like see into people's souls and know like what they're actually saying. But as a statement, it is very reasonable, right? Right.

109
00:39:49.987 --> 00:40:05.647
Yes. If that's your goal is to have is to cultivate people who are going to contribute, then not wanting them to be using LMs as the way that they learn about the code base could be a very reasonable thing to say. Like, I don't know. Right. I'm not in a position to really judge that.

110
00:40:05.647 --> 00:40:22.758
So I do think there's kind of this there's kind of different stages. Right. When you get to a certain point, the goals that you're trying to sort of go for kind of have to be like, yeah, we don't want you using LLMs much because we think we we think there's something to preserve in the human layer. And we're going for that.

111
00:40:23.180 --> 00:40:41.962
So I guess the follow-up question is that this obviously caused a huge amount of kind of stir on the internet. And I, like you said, I like their, if you take what they're saying at face value and you believe they're being like honest in all of their thoughts, that it's purely a very practical, educational type of pursuit.

112
00:40:41.962 --> 00:41:02.617
then you'd say, okay, well, I think it's totally fine. Like, I think that there's nothing wrong with it. But obviously the internet kind of freaked out. And there was people just saying how they're going to get left behind and all these different kind of things. Is this actually a real concern? Or is this just like a Twitterism that people throw out there that actually has no real impact into the future of Codeberg?

113
00:41:04.321 --> 00:41:31.473
Does anyone else want to go first? Because I have something to say about the left behind thing that's kind of its own direction. Oh, with Kirk Cameron? Famous movie? And book series. Really famous series. And book series. What do you mean? Left behind in what sense? When Jesus comes back, idiot. Yeah, yeah. And then there's a bunch of people here just standing around. Obviously we know somebody's getting left behind here, okay? Okay. No, I mean like... Crash. I'm talking about Coburs, but I don't understand why they'd be left behind if they took out LLMs.

114
00:41:32.418 --> 00:41:52.735
Well, I think the implication is that if everyone's going to be programming with LLMs in the future, because that's the new way that people are starting to... Next week. Well, the people are starting to program now. Like, most people are using these things, or at least a significant portion of developers are using these things. Then if you ban them, you are effectively not going to have enough people, right, to...

115
00:41:52.735 --> 00:42:21.963
doing work to contribute to CodeBerg repositories. I think, right? I mean, that's just the basic implication is there won't be enough programmers doing programming without these LLMs to constitute a relevant set of projects on CodeBerg. Is that, I mean, am I just off-base here? But they're not banning LLMs straight out. They're just banning, like, strictly, like, only LLM stuff, right? Yes. That's what I'm getting at. Well, yeah, I mean... But I guess that's where it gets weird. Yeah, I mean, the...

116
00:42:21.963 --> 00:42:48.153
I mean, I don't know. I'm just saying, like, I think that's what they mean by left behind. It's just like because people will be mostly mostly they will be generating code with LLMs. And if you're doing that, you know, that's that's not allowed. So, Casey, I may not know this, but I'm sorry, T. You can go next. Sorry. I just got to throw this in there. Trash knows this very, very well, which is a very common Silicon Valley ism. So I think this is actually a holdover from just another time, which is that if you were to build a product.

117
00:42:48.153 --> 00:43:18.106
in 2021, and you didn't use React, you were effectively making it so that no one can work on your project and it's going to be super hard to hire and all these kind of things. Like you saw that kind of phrasing and phraseology constantly. So I do think that that mentality, whatever it is, yet again, shows up in these type of arguments, which is, well, if you're not doing the current thing, then you're done. You're cooked. You're, you know, whatever the kid, you're chopped, the kids say. I think that's what they say. All right, sorry, teach, go. Yeah, I was going to say, I think there's...

118
00:43:19.422 --> 00:43:46.810
Like if you think of stack overflow and it like used to be a company and basically now it's not, is my understanding, right? Like it used to be popular and now I think they get like, sometimes days go by with no questions asked. Am I crazy? Is it that small now? It is. No way. Yeah. It's like, it's like 10 questions on average a day was the last time I looked. And it used to be like over a hundred thousand or something insane, right? Sometimes it peaked something crazy, whatever. Um,

119
00:43:48.042 --> 00:44:05.643
So I think, like, from a business perspective, I think, like, some of what people are getting at is, like, Codeberg, you won't be able to, like, pay people to work on your stuff or, like, to host it or do all these other things because there's literally just not going to be enough people, like –

120
00:44:05.643 --> 00:44:23.716
doing whatever version it is that codeberg says is like acceptable coding policy i think is like the the conjecture the thing that i always feel like is kind of crazy for that where i just you know want to take a step back and make sure people are considering

121
00:44:23.716 --> 00:44:46.649
Like a lot, you know, spent a lot of time working on Neo Vim, did a lot of fun stuff on my setup, whatever. I had a lot of fun doing that. Some of it was productive. Some of it was just fun. I always said as much. I know that a bunch of people absolutely demolished me using Notepad or Notepad++ or like Ed still and made whatever metric you would pick.

122
00:44:47.290 --> 00:45:01.195
Like, crushed me. In terms of number of users, amount of money, amount of money raised, cultural impact. Like, you could pick any vertical and they crushed my entire career, right?

123
00:45:02.022 --> 00:45:23.403
So I always feel like the, like, you'll get left behind because you're not using whatever the current thing is, is like usually very overstated in just in terms of like, there are people who are just like either much more persistent or much more lucky or work harder or whatever it's going to be. And they like still win and carve out their thing. And unironically, uh, with that.

124
00:45:23.403 --> 00:45:52.276
and without malice, the successful by their own standards, a phrase that I know Prime is familiar with at least. It's my favorite phrase, by the way. That's a really good phrase. Is actually true, though. If CodeBurg doesn't want to be acquired by Microsoft and be the default place where people host code, instead they want to be a place that's like a sustainable business where people can share code with other humans, then they can still meet that goal without getting every new programmer. So it's like...

125
00:45:52.276 --> 00:46:13.167
You can't you might get left behind by the like VC hype cycle thing. Like you'll never get the growth that like your venture capital firm would have wanted you to give. But that doesn't mean that the project is like a failure, which is the thing that I just feel like is so just like everyone's talking way past each other about that online in the conversation.

126
00:46:14.129 --> 00:46:34.885
I feel like that's 100% correct. It's like the idea of getting left behind doesn't really make very much sense because it suggests that everyone's goal is to be at the forefront of something. Right. But that's not right. Like there are, you know, like you've got people like the Amish who are just like, you know what, I'm just not going to use electricity.

127
00:46:34.885 --> 00:47:04.687
Right. In 2026, like people have to have the freedom to define their own ways of living. And one of the things that I try to tell people, although people rarely seem to want to listen, is that that is a feature, not a bug of humanity, because you never really know when humanity in large numbers is going to go do something fantastically stupid. Like we have no idea if AI is going to be a huge mistake. It might be for reasons we just can't foresee. Right. Right.

128
00:47:04.687 --> 00:47:21.629
And so having some percentage of the population who doesn't like it reflexively and chooses to go do something else, that is not bad. Even if they're wrong, it's good. It's insurance. It's basically like humanity's protection...

129
00:47:21.629 --> 00:47:48.663
about everyone doing something dumb, right? So you always want a diversity of sort of directions forward where some amount of your populace is not doing the new thing. Even if the new thing turns out to be correct, it was not a good idea to try to pressure them into not going their own way, because having that sort of different set of people doing different things for different reasons is why we survive.

130
00:47:48.663 --> 00:48:07.917
And the instant you try to homogenize everybody and say everyone should do it this one way, you are effectively eliminating humanity's greatest strength, which is not all doing the same thing all the time. They did. This was the problem in Interstellar. They all had the exact same corn. That's why they had to go inside of a black hole.

131
00:48:08.626 --> 00:48:33.466
I mean, I don't know. Trash, that's literally true. There's like a bookshelf. No way. What? Then Matthew McConaughey had to go behind a bookshelf and punch it to get some stuff happening. It's hard to recover from corn. If you all are doing the same corn, it's GG's, okay? Timothee Chalamet might disappear from your timeline and never get referenced in the last 45 minutes of your movie, okay? Okay.

132
00:48:33.466 --> 00:49:00.685
You get hit by this huge wave, like the biggest wave you've ever seen, and you have very little warning trash. Very little warning. Noted. Noted on corn. Got it. Yeah. And then Matt Damon lies to you about the planet. There's a ton of bad stuff that happens in this timeline. He's a good guy when he's on Earth, but every time you see him not on Earth, he's a bad guy. That's right. Think about it. That's right. Something I feel like people don't talk about is Matthew McConaughey spends years behind that bookshelf.

133
00:49:01.681 --> 00:49:31.212
I mean, it's probably a pretty cool little space back there. I'm just throwing it out there. That was a long time. He was out there for a long time. He's a patient man. Very patient. Very patient. He got... Hit them with binary. Trash, that is what happens, though, by the way. They all have the same corn, and then it gets afflicted by the same disease, and they can't stop it because they ran out of corn. That's what... They can't live anymore. I had no idea. You're not paying enough attention, Trash. I'm not paying attention. I'm not. Yeah.

134
00:49:31.955 --> 00:49:51.715
But the serious point, to echo Casey's point, is if you love AI, you should be thankful that there exists people putting out new, untainted, fresh training and keeping the light alive of trades that we may forget how to do. We don't actually want to have the meme where it's like...

135
00:49:52.694 --> 00:50:19.508
we lost the technology, whatever the meme is like. My dad showed me this TV and asked, how did we put this on the moon? And he said, son, we lost the technology. You don't actually want that. So you should be thankful that people exist that are like, I hate AI. I'm going to keep writing code by hand. That's a good. This is the exact same thing as back in the old days where people were like, why are you working on game engine stuff? Why don't you just use Unity?

136
00:50:19.627 --> 00:50:48.955
And the answer is, why would you ever say that to somebody? The people who you're saying that to are the people who built unity. Like that's why you have a unity is because of these. You should just say, great, have fun with that. I'm gonna leave you alone because I want my unity later, right? Like that's, it's people are arguing against their own self-interest. Like people who are LLM aficionados are arguing against their own self-interest when they tell other people not to pursue other paths. It doesn't make any sense.

137
00:50:48.955 --> 00:51:17.423
It's like the Codeberg people's blog makes perfect sense. The people who are saying they shouldn't do this or they're going to be left behind, I don't really take that seriously because that's not what you would say if you actually thought about the system as a whole. And again, so when you look at those people's motivations, it kind of feels more like they're just self-conscious or something. Like they don't have enough self-esteem to just go, I'm using LLMs and I'm fine with it, and I don't mind if other people aren't in the band. It's like somebody else not doing it is like...

138
00:51:17.423 --> 00:51:40.188
makes them afraid maybe there's something wrong with them or something. And they have to get everyone involved in this thing. And everyone has to agree it's great to do this and that there's nothing wrong with using them. It's like, just have some self-confidence. You use LLMs. It's fine. You're fine with it. Go ahead and let the people who don't, don't. It's just, what's the problem, right? I don't understand. Casey, can I read you a quote from George Hatz?

139
00:51:40.323 --> 00:51:59.628
Also, I called it in the chat. As soon as Casey said this, I typed in the chat, Geohot's reference incoming. Prime is so excited. Teej, I actually had a completely different point, but when I saw that, I was like, oh, that's a good reference. I'm going to use that in a sec. Oh, your face lit up. I was like, he's running. You did a little bit of future shaping by accident. What is it?

140
00:51:59.628 --> 00:52:16.739
All right, well, let me show you. So this is from his famous blog post called I Love LLMs. I hate the hype. Where he also casually drops that he runs GLM2 just to set up his Linux machine. You know, a multimillion-dollar machine just to set up Linux. You're the Linux, by the way. So anyways, he said this.

141
00:52:16.739 --> 00:52:37.259
What I don't like is two things. One, the constant bullshit about the window closing or perpetual underclass or falling hopelessly behind. This is a negative balance hype. Not only is it not true, it's mostly designed to make you feel bad about yourself and move to shitty San Francisco where everything really does suck. Like how these people claim. Oh, it gets better, Casey. It gets better. All right. Again.

142
00:52:37.259 --> 00:53:01.964
Just in case anyone's wondering, HOTS, open invite whenever you want to be on here. HOTS takes. I love these HOTS takes. Dude, he's my favorite writer of the modern age. And two, this straw man jumped from, oh, hey, it's a fancy autocomplete, smart compiler, better search engine, to it's, like, going to own the whole light cone, bro. If you aren't in San Francisco and at the right parties, there's going to be a flash of light in the sky one day, and you're not even going to know what happened. But everything just changed.

143
00:53:01.964 --> 00:53:26.078
I'll bet you everything I have that this doesn't happen. The people perpetuating this are terrible people, but the justice is that this is how they feel inside all the time themselves. I guess, you know, all I'm doing is unknowingly parroting Geohots here. So, yes, I mean, that's kind of what I was trying to say, but put more eloquently, I suppose.

144
00:53:26.500 --> 00:53:54.833
I love that phrase. But, I mean, I do want to throw this out there that there's this one big problem when it comes to AI. Well, really, it comes to anyone talking about technology. And I do this myself all the time because NeoVim is still the greatest editor if you want to actually be a real programmer. But the thing is that when you approach a problem, especially like you'll definitely see this from people recommending LLMs, is that they can identify and say, oh, this is a part that LLMs are not that good at.

145
00:53:55.103 --> 00:54:21.412
But don't worry, it's really great at backends. Oh no, don't worry, it's really great at this other thing. And so I hearken it to like something like the gentleman amnesia, which is you open up a magazine, you read the first thing about horses, you say, wow, they're so smart about horses, look at all these cool facts. You go to JavaScript and you read it and they're like, oh, they know nothing about JavaScript. They're such idiots. You turn the page and you're like, oh man, this bee article is so amazing. Look, I know so much about bees now. It's like you completely forgot the fact that when you knew something,

146
00:54:21.412 --> 00:54:51.398
then it was not that good. But when you don't know something, it's like the most fantastic thing in the universe. So it has some strong parallels to that. And I think that people often forget that what they work on and what they're doing may be very good with LLMs. That doesn't mean everybody has a problem that's really aligned with LLMs. Like if I was just building some SaaS tools that is taking stuff from the backend and putting it on the front end, like you bet your sweet ass I'd be using LLMs like wild. Like I'd be setting up every last thing because it's like, this is such a mechanical,

147
00:54:51.398 --> 00:55:08.662
you know, put the data in the box, bro. Like there's not like a lot you got to do there. And so it's like, this is a perfect example of you saying, hey, you could probably get to the point of even automating PR review through a lot of this stuff with barely like any oversight. Whereas like that, you can't do that for everything, but people see this one thing and then they go,

148
00:55:08.932 --> 00:55:36.505
Dude, why aren't you automating PR review? It's obvious. You should do it this way. This is the future, idiot. But their circle is so much different than other people's circle, but I see it. Therefore, everybody has this exact same thing. And also, they feel really crappy on the inside based on Geohots. And so that's kind of like how I look at this and why people are angry at Codeberg is because they see their future and what they're doing. And they see Codeberg going against it. And they cannot imagine a world in which is different than their own world.

149
00:55:37.535 --> 00:56:05.648
Well, I would also just point out the difference in goals, at least, because from my perspective, I've never really been super concerned. I mean, I guess I am concerned sort of because I have to use software about how good LLMs are compared to human programming, right? I'm slightly concerned because, like, if they don't get any better, maybe that's a problem because people are using them. So, you know, I kind of want them to improve in the sense that if they don't improve, we're kind of in trouble. But, you know, that sort of that's a separate thing.

150
00:56:05.648 --> 00:56:22.962
So assuming that they get good enough that it's just fine all the time and they can write really good code and we don't really have to worry about it too much. To me, that's really just not part of the equation, at least for me, because it's like, I like to program. Like I wanna do it, right? And so when I look at things, other things in life,

151
00:56:22.962 --> 00:56:51.346
I think Teej used chess as an example before. I find that very compelling. It's like, if I want to play a game of chess, I'm not thinking, well, I'm not going to play that game of chess because I know that I could get a computer that can play it better than me. I still just want to do it, right? You know? It's good. Yeah. I like TJ. I actually even prefer, that's one of TJ's really great analogies. A second one of his is the Amish chair one, which you kind of alluded to, which is Amish people still make chairs that I can go buy.

152
00:56:51.920 --> 00:57:10.128
Yeah, well, and the other thing I was going to say is- Why not just mass produce it from Ikea, idiot? Just use the mass produce one, dummy. Drum machines versus live music, right? It's like we have things that can do stuff on a time. So it's like I may just want to learn to play the drums because I enjoy playing the drums. It's not that I think I will be more precise than a drum machine or whatever.

153
00:57:10.128 --> 00:57:28.758
It's just that I wanted to play the drums. Right. And so to me, those things should be acceptable. Like if you say that people should not be like hounding you for some reason. It's a perfectly rational thing that exists in all of this. Like, hey, we could probably design a robot that hits a baseball really well.

154
00:57:28.758 --> 00:57:45.464
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have people playing baseball as something we watch. Like, it's just, it might just be something we want to do, and that should be fine. And you should not care because if, again, if you're not really self-conscious or something, and you actually have some self-confidence...

155
00:57:45.464 --> 00:58:02.997
then if you want to go build the future with LLMs, those people are not in your way, right? They're not creating a problem by going and doing something a different way. So what's the issue? Why do you have to convince them not to? I don't see it. We can agree that it's time to stop playing soccer, though. Right, Casey?

156
00:58:02.997 --> 00:58:24.209
Well, we never should have started. I agree that if your country doesn't have a better sport to play, like if you only have soccer, then play soccer. But if you can if you can have baseball or something, if you can have like a sport that adults play, you should play. You should probably play that. That's my I've always I've always personally thought the quality of a country is based proportionally on how expensive their main sport is to play.

157
00:58:24.209 --> 00:58:45.387
Yes, exactly. That's how you know. That's the affluence of that country. If all you can afford is like a little ball that you just run around a field with, eh? Right? Yep. Like, not really. Like, that's not really first world. That doesn't scream first world to me. Right? It really doesn't. So, I don't know. I mean, make of it what you will. Oh, it's so brutal. You know? Mm-hmm.

158
00:58:46.332 --> 00:59:09.873
Love it. Our new sports are collecting Pokemon cards. It's a very expensive sport. Trash has decided they have the most expensive sport. You know how many soccer balls this is worth? This is so many soccer balls behind me. I could fund the World Cup. I saw somebody saying something like, the whole point of the stand-up is to watch Trash's room slowly fill up with Pokemon. Can I show you guys something? Yes, you can. Yes, of course. Yes, please.

159
00:59:12.674 --> 00:59:34.291
This is my binder of bangers. Okay. Ooh, I love it. I pulled this card just randomly. I don't know if you can see it. What is that? This is a Mega Dark Ride. It's called Special Illustration Rare. $300 card. Boom. Boom. That was my first one I ever pulled of this caliber.

160
00:59:34.443 --> 00:59:45.918
I showed my son and he was so mad at me. He was like, I want it. I was like, uh, okay. Just so I understand, Trash, just so we're on the same page, that means all of your other cards are worth less than $300.

161
00:59:57.747 --> 01:00:22.773
I can't afford to go out and buy a $1,000 card, and I refuse. I want to pull it myself, okay? That's actually reasonable. That's actually reasonable. It's the same thing as AI. Yes, exactly. So it's like there's people that favor input, which is like the Codeberg people, and there's people that favor output, which is like the LLM people that just churn this stuff out, right? I'm an input type guy when it comes to Pokemon, so...

162
01:00:22.773 --> 01:00:39.125
I respect that Trash, since you're kind of the only one who works at a modern web influencing company within this group right now Can we just say the only one with a real job and cut to the chase? No, because Casey You have a very real job

163
01:00:39.952 --> 01:01:00.944
Is it, though? Oh, okay, you're right. Game engine design and making games amazing is totally not real. Fake and unique graphic novel. He's going to be left behind. He's actually being left behind right now. Casey's being left behind every time we see him. He's even more behind. Every episode, you should scoot back an inch. That's true.

164
01:01:02.075 --> 01:01:28.450
Casey, I don't know if you know this, but 2010 Unity came out, so why don't you quit being such an idiot and just use a real engine? It does sound right. I forgot where I was going with this statement. Trash works at a real job, and you wanted his opinion on something. Yeah, trash, trash. As somebody who works in a real job, is in a real—I said web influencing. That's why I actually specifically said that, because Casey, I just assume, is not talking about web standards ever in his life, if possible. With that in mind—

165
01:01:28.720 --> 01:01:41.562
How much of the work nowadays in your sphere is like AI driven completely or it's like the expectation that you have to do that? Like, is it falling behind for somebody in your position not to use AI?

166
01:01:42.271 --> 01:02:10.823
Uh, it depends on where you are in the work. So I think there's a lot of things within TV that AI really can't help with because obviously we have a lot of proprietary stuff that's like maybe not documented the best. So that's where like the expertise of like maybe your previous team or adjacent teams will come in and AI can't really help. Right. So when it comes to like hardcore performance stuff, you know, you can we've actually tried to throw like a bunch of alums at it. Sometimes it falls short. Sometimes it hallucinates.

167
01:02:10.823 --> 01:02:30.854
But then there's like the standard stuff, which is like product facing. AI will typically shine through there, I think. But I think this isn't specific to my company, but I think all companies as a whole, everyone's getting pushed to go agentic coding fully so we can fully realize our output and then we can then calibrate our personnel.

168
01:02:30.854 --> 01:02:48.995
at some point. And I'm not speaking for my company. I'm just saying that's just like something I've been seeing. But I don't think that's actually turning out the way these companies think it was going to turn out as in like we're going to shrink our personnel, but still keep the same velocity. I think they're just keeping the same velocity as they were before, but they're spending way more money.

169
01:02:50.783 --> 01:03:12.063
And I think that's like the brutal reality every single company is seeing now because engineers aren't like, yeah, I'm 10 times more productive to work for you. Like no one's actually wanting to be more productive when they can do less but have the same input they had before. And I think that's like the actual reality. Unless they're like founders, of course, they're going to pump out stuff. But I think like your standard personnel does not have that mindset. Yeah.

170
01:03:12.063 --> 01:03:30.322
And I'm not saying I have that mindset. I work very hard, by the way. Right. Trash in particular did 10X his output, but only his. I'm a 10Xer. Only his. Everyone else. To go back to the original point we made about LLM usage. He was 10X. Everyone else, same output.

171
01:03:30.322 --> 01:03:47.973
There is like some one thing that kind of bothers me and it's not within my company, but just in general is and it's something we tapped on earlier is like when you do see those PRs that are clearly generated, like why should I look at this? You know what I mean? It's like I'll have just use another agent to look at your agent's work.

172
01:03:47.973 --> 01:04:06.451
That part is still something that really frustrates me within our industry now. We're outputting all this stuff, but then there's an expectation of a human to read it because we don't fully trust agents. But there's just so much coming through. No one even has time to do it, so I don't know. I'm kind of torn there. Anyways.

173
01:04:07.328 --> 01:04:34.244
I did see someone wrote a kind of like an excellent, I forget who said this or where I saw, but which was this idea that by you using an LLM to kind of generate your thoughts, you're really putting the onus of correctness on somebody else. Like you're not even validating it yourself first and then passing it on. And so it's actually in some sense, you could consider it like a pretty rude action, like something you would never do just like two years ago is now something that people just do all the time. Like, I need,

174
01:04:34.244 --> 01:05:02.628
I didn't even proofread it. Like, it's the LM said it was correct. And it's just like, dude, that's crazy. Like, what are you doing? Why are you doing that to other people? You're making four other people do the work that you could have done first. I would never do anything like that. Like, I always come up with all my original thoughts myself. The other day I was thinking about this lighthouse that was, like, milking a cartographer, like, really hard. And I was just like, this is, like, really smart, what I thought of. And so I wrote that down.

175
01:05:02.813 --> 01:05:18.507
Okay, that's very impressive, Casey. I'm extremely impressed with you. That's one thing that my mindset's different on AI usage, like with it for work and outside of work, is if I'm going to make a PR that's generated through an LLM, I need to make damn sure I can...

176
01:05:19.891 --> 01:05:49.625
know exactly what it's doing. Cause if someone asked me, what does it do like in a meeting? And I can't answer that. That's like my ass is on the line. So that's like my, that's like the situation I fear the most where it's like, yeah, can you explain it to me? And if I can't do that, just fire me, dude. So that's kind of like how I handle that kind of stuff. Like within like actual professional environments. Can you ask the LLM, can you explain, please also write up what I'm supposed to say in a meeting. If someone asks me what this PR does return, and then just remember that statement.

177
01:05:50.671 --> 01:06:16.152
It's true. It's true. I actually have my own agent at work now. You just changed his whole workflow? You're welcome, Trash. I've solved it. I have my own agent at work, and if someone asks me a question, I tag my agent, and I'm like, can you go figure this out? And they're just watching it all in real time. I'm like, there you go, you got it, buddy. Thumbs up. It's nice. It's nice. All right. Does anybody here have an opposing opinion? Does anyone here think that what Codeberg did was net negative? Yeah.

178
01:06:17.536 --> 01:06:33.449
Oh, not negative. Or at least negative to some degree. Because obviously people's on the internet, there's a lot of people that were just like, you know, losing it. I saw people being like, I'm not even gonna donate anymore, right? I linked it in one of the videos, some random guy. I could find the exact rock tweet.

179
01:06:33.449 --> 01:06:54.121
The biggest complaint I have with it is the concept around it being mostly AI generated. I think of a project that I use quite a bit that's called Alchemy. That's how we deploy a bunch of stuff that we've been testing out for different projects.

180
01:06:54.121 --> 01:07:12.093
helps you make sure your infrastructure actually type checks, more or less, is the very short answer of it. So that if I say that this thing needs a database, we actually have a Postgres database accessible to this service, right? Like that kind of thing.

181
01:07:12.093 --> 01:07:36.173
And one of the cool things they do is they have like a, I don't even know how many, an insane amount of agents like spinning up and like going and hitting AWS or like Cloudflare or like all these different people in like a bunch of insane ways. And then just like recording all of the possible error codes that they get back, which believe it or not, are not the same error codes that are in the specs for these systems. Shocking.

182
01:07:36.325 --> 01:07:52.542
shockingly shocking the thing that they say might happen under certain circumstances doesn't actually happen and the only way that they're finding the list of all the ways those things might fail or the time that it might take between when it says it's going to deploy and not and all these other things right

183
01:07:53.605 --> 01:08:07.966
is, like, actually just run it and see, and then, like, keep running them again later and make sure that it's still the same because they are constantly shipping updates. Right, but, like, a crazy amount of that is, like, all...

184
01:08:09.080 --> 01:08:26.596
Well, you could say, like, it's all AI, right? Like, depending on what your definition of it is. But I'm like, well, that seems like a pretty good use case of, like, we're going to go make the computer hit the other computer in a bunch of different ways until we find out all the ways that it can fail. Or at least many more than what's in the spec. Yeah.

185
01:08:27.237 --> 01:08:44.230
Would that not be allowed on Codeberg? You know what I'm saying? Like that part, that's the part where I just don't like them mostly. Because I think some projects are like very intentional about the way that they're doing AI. And I like Casey's sort of more like, is it a waste of someone else's time?

186
01:08:44.230 --> 01:09:01.240
Like, that's what I don't like? Or is it a waste of, like, Codeberg's resources in the sense of, like, are you pushing a thousand times a second to our thing and uploading, like, just insane diffs and committing binaries and, like, destroying it? Some of those, though, I don't think you can solve with, like, a...

187
01:09:01.882 --> 01:09:29.135
I don't know, like a policy at like a words policy. It just has to be a money policy. Like, cool, you get this many commits per day for free. And then after this, you just have to pay. Like, stop doing this. You're abusing the system. Even like if you're not doing it in AI, like if I just did a script that incremented a number and then committed and pushed it to Codeberg, I should also get banned. There's no AI involved, you know what I mean? I'm just literally wasting their resources. So like,

188
01:09:29.135 --> 01:09:55.814
That's the part where I don't really like. And I think Prime, you talked about it in your video, but not today. The other thing is like this sort of single-use or like single-person software. I love single-person software. I think the demand for software is unlimited. Like the more personalized and better software could be, the more people will want it to do more things for them. Unfortunately, we're currently just at like we're getting more software but maybe less quality stage. But like maybe someday, hypothetically, it's not.

189
01:09:55.814 --> 01:10:05.922
You could have it be personalized for you and really good. So that's the other part that I wasn't a huge fan of in their sort of list of reasons.

190
01:10:06.783 --> 01:10:32.753
I'll echo that one. I said in the video, I released a video, by the way, today on the Codeberg thing, just my thoughts, which is one of them is on this idea that like single use or personal use software is a net negative. And you should always have software that's like attempting to create a community or bring people around or is maintained long term. And it's just like, well, 90 percent of my ideas are trash anyways. I just need to actually like go and discover them and use them for three months ago.

191
01:10:32.753 --> 01:10:50.405
Oh, actually, no, this was really actually a bad idea. And so making that discovery process smaller is really good. And I can rewrite it and make it into something amazing. But the discovery process is actually really hard. And all big projects start off as personal use.

192
01:10:50.405 --> 01:11:16.443
Even Linux was Linus being like, dude, check out my toy operating system I made as a research project. It's just like, well, okay, yeah, he was just checking things out. It wasn't like, I'm going to make the greatest operating system of all time that everybody will eventually say is the year of my operating system. Every year for 15 years. It could be that what Codeberg is basically saying, though, and again, I don't know. Maybe what they're saying is like, look, that's just not what we do here.

193
01:11:16.595 --> 01:11:34.853
Right. Like, you know, like they might not be saying don't do that. They might just be saying Codeberg is for when you want a community around your project. If that's what you're doing, you come here. If you'd want to do something else, go to GitHub, go to whatever you wherever you want. We don't care. There's plenty other places that can host your source code.

194
01:11:34.853 --> 01:12:03.490
If you want to do a community-centered project, that's what we do. We're about humans. We're about people coming together and working on projects. And again, like, I don't know if that's what they're saying, but if that's their thing, then that's their thing, right? They're the ones doing this. We don't have the right to go tell them how to run their source code control. So at some level, it's like maybe that's what they want, right? Oh, I have to interrupt you. Can you say if that's the thing, that's their thing. Can you re-say that but with a Boston accent? Can you just make that last quick point with the Boston accent?

195
01:12:04.958 --> 01:12:17.294
It was so good. It's just, it's going to become de rigueur if I do it every episode of Prime. You really want that? Just one more time. Just one more time for the boys. All right. Okay.

196
01:12:19.066 --> 01:12:47.045
Listen, I don't know what Codeberg's thing is, right? You know, I mean, they got to do what they're going to do because they've got so many things that they're thinking about. They got LLMs over here. They're sending all these, you know, commitments and things. It doesn't make any sense. So they got to limit the people who use Codeberg to the, you know, they got to limit it to the kind of people that are like them, you know, that have the same kind of opinions, the same kind of needs. They don't want AIs in there doing whatever they're going to do.

197
01:12:47.686 --> 01:12:49.576
Is that what we're talking about? I don't know.

198
01:12:52.073 --> 01:13:21.959
It's just when you said, if that's the thing, that's the thing they're going to do. Like, when you said it, you actually, like, kind of tripped yourself up into, like, a minor shadow of an accent. Like, you could actually kind of hear it, and so then I was just like, I just need to hear the thing. Sorry. Is it easy for you to do it? Is it pretty natural? No, in fact, that one wasn't that good. Like, so there's this problem that happens with accents. It's hard to do specifically. So, there's Massachusetts, and there's, like, Providence.

199
01:13:21.959 --> 01:13:51.338
And so Providence is more Italian-American accent and Massachusetts is a little bit more. And so that one was more Providence, what I just did. It's really hard for me to, without thinking about it too much and without the right words, it's hard for me to pick one. So like I'm trying to think and I'm not really a master at this. There's people who are really good impressionists and they know exactly how to do it. I thought you were going to say people who really live in Boston. That would make sense. They're experts at this. Impressionists.

200
01:13:52.233 --> 01:14:17.039
It's like, Codeberg. Codeberg. It's like, I don't even know if I know what they would say for Codeberg. All I know is that somebody from Boston. Codeberg? Yeah, I've been to Codeberg. Codeberg. I don't even know how they would say Codeberg. I actually kind of want to go ask a person with a real Massachusetts accent, how would you say the word Codeberg? Because I don't have a good, like, reference. Can you say Codeberg's retarded?

201
01:14:17.039 --> 01:14:46.452
Yeah, Codebag. Codebag is kind of retarded. Codeberg. Codebag. I think it'd be kind of, it's almost like it's like Codebug. It's like saying Codebug. Yes, Codebug. Codebag. Codebug. You know, Codebug. You haven't been to Codebug, you're checking source code to Codebug. Like that, right? And I feel like it's really hard to get that because there's the Providence accents more, it's different, right? It's more like, you know, Codebug. You know, Codebug, you're checking the source code to Codebug. It's like a little bit different. It's very close, but a little bit different.

202
01:14:46.452 --> 01:15:13.503
I have a friend that lives in Boston, and he told me this phrase, and I've been wanting to remember the phrase for so long, but it goes something like, we dropped our R's here because we pick them up over there. And it's like this thing where it's like, you say WADA, right? You don't say WADA, right? And so they have this whole, he listed it out for me in this really logical way. It's like, this is why, you know, Warsh is like, or whatever it was. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's Warsh. And then you're just like, oh, okay, so you dropped the R's here to pick them up over there.

203
01:15:13.503 --> 01:15:35.778
There's also, like, New England and the surrounding areas are just, like, an accent festival, right? Because there's, like, WADA. There's, like, there's also WIDER, which is, like, a Pennsylvania... Like, there's a... There's, like, in the Pennsylvania area, they have, like, something like WIDER. It's almost, like, a different way of saying it. There's so many ways, and, like...

204
01:15:35.778 --> 01:15:54.070
chocolate, chocolate. There's a whole bunch of different, like, sayings, so. We need to get some people on. Find a person with a real Boston accent. We'll have him on, say, Codeberg. I don't know who that would be. I actually have somebody right now, the person who told me this. I have him up on Facebook. I just logged him to Facebook for the first time in a decade.

205
01:15:54.070 --> 01:16:18.573
Be like, hey, bro, how would you say Code Bird? He currently lives in Boston right now. So, I mean, this guy is crazy. Those are hard to find. Is he from Boston or did he just like move there last week? From Boston. I went to like the home he grew up in. We should end the episode. I can just feel it coming. It's starting to come out of me.

206
01:16:19.855 --> 01:16:49.538
Yeah, we... Alright, thanks everybody for joining us on today's episode of Stand Up. It's been a wonderful Stand Up. Thanks everyone for joining us. Prime is busy right now. I've heard of said a message to this guy. Yeah, he's really busy. He's really busy right now. Bye everyone. So we'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Mood up today. Vibe coping. Errors on my screen. Terminal coffee.