WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.261 --> 00:00:05.040 You're essentially solving yesterday's problems with yesterday's thinking, 2 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:07.620 but in a world where yesterday doesn't exist anymore. 3 00:00:08.040 --> 00:00:14.400 All of us as consumers, we think we are optimizers, but actually we are risk minimized. 4 00:00:14.580 --> 00:00:17.720 What's interesting about it, the reason it matters, is because when you've micro-dosed 5 00:00:18.683 --> 00:00:23.520 novelty, uncertainty in small amounts, when the proper stuff shows up, 6 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:28.000 instead of freaking out or freezing, it's almost like you've built this muscle. 7 00:00:28.101 --> 00:00:29.620 Oh, what a great question. 8 00:00:31.005 --> 00:00:33.960 I very rarely get asked questions that I've never been asked before. 9 00:00:34.361 --> 00:00:34.680 That's great. 10 00:00:35.040 --> 00:00:37.600 StoryWork is brought to you in partnership with Slingshot. 11 00:00:38.041 --> 00:00:40.520 Slingshot are Australia's creative media experts, 12 00:00:40.760 --> 00:00:43.040 and having worked successfully with them for years, 13 00:00:43.502 --> 00:00:44.900 I'm thrilled to have them on board. 14 00:00:46.643 --> 00:00:48.620 You're listening to a DM podcast. 15 00:00:51.209 --> 00:00:51.820 Well, hi, friends. 16 00:00:52.101 --> 00:00:55.360 My name is Matt Jones, and welcome to another episode of StoryWork. 17 00:00:55.824 --> 00:00:57.740 This might be your first time, in which case, welcome, 18 00:00:57.941 --> 00:01:02.280 or you might have heard our incredible conversations with Dom Pym and Zara Seidler. 19 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:04.368 Either way, it's great to have you here. 20 00:01:04.830 --> 00:01:07.140 And today we're going to talk about change. 21 00:01:07.861 --> 00:01:08.764 Change is a constant. 22 00:01:08.945 --> 00:01:12.860 I know it's a cliche, but even in a world that is always changing, 23 00:01:13.341 --> 00:01:17.175 I still feel like we are going through a particularly changey moment. 24 00:01:17.938 --> 00:01:18.380 And how we 25 00:01:18.460 --> 00:01:23.480 navigate the next period of business and life is going to be dependent on how well we deal with 26 00:01:23.520 --> 00:01:28.300 change, how we handle the changes that will happen to us, and how we drive whatever changes 27 00:01:28.682 --> 00:01:29.425 we seek to make. 28 00:01:30.189 --> 00:01:32.500 Now, whenever I'm trying to figure out what's going on in the world, 29 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:35.267 I tend to think about Michael McQueen. 30 00:01:35.929 --> 00:01:39.680 This is an era of almost endless self-help advice, 31 00:01:40.281 --> 00:01:44.920 but I still turn to Michael's books and listen to him speak before just about anyone else. 32 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:51.080 So today I wanted him to come on the podcast and focus on two of the ideas he's really thinking 33 00:01:51.140 --> 00:01:52.103 about a lot at the moment. 34 00:01:52.264 --> 00:01:56.016 The first is about the power of embracing novelty. 35 00:01:56.498 --> 00:01:57.160 Michael thinks that 36 00:01:57.340 --> 00:02:03.120 curiosity can make us more prepared for change, can make us more resilient and more flexible 37 00:02:03.682 --> 00:02:05.847 in the face of enormous uncertainty. 38 00:02:06.449 --> 00:02:10.580 The second idea is about the power of leading with vulnerability. 39 00:02:11.140 --> 00:02:16.780 How being vulnerable, not certain, can help you take people with you as you seek to change their 40 00:02:16.820 --> 00:02:18.767 minds and maybe change their behaviours. 41 00:02:19.248 --> 00:02:22.560 So from microdosing novelty to rethinking the art of 42 00:02:22.600 --> 00:02:26.280 persuasion, here is my chat with the very brilliant Michael McQueen. 43 00:02:28.642 --> 00:02:35.008 michael mcqueen i'm very conscious i sit across the desk one bald man looking at another 44 00:02:49.422 --> 00:02:54.500 mostly bald man that we have known each other a very long time yes more than 10 years and 45 00:02:55.462 --> 00:03:01.420 you've written 10 books, you've spent the last 20 years giving thousands of keynotes and giving 46 00:03:01.741 --> 00:03:02.945 great thought leadership. 47 00:03:03.086 --> 00:03:07.360 And for me, the common theme so often is this sense of change. 48 00:03:07.624 --> 00:03:07.720 Yes. 49 00:03:08.020 --> 00:03:12.860 What I want to talk about today is this central notion of change, but I want to look at it through 50 00:03:12.940 --> 00:03:13.764 two lenses. 51 00:03:13.804 --> 00:03:15.872 First, how do we deal with it? 52 00:03:16.073 --> 00:03:17.860 Because if there's one thing we're going to have to deal 53 00:03:17.940 --> 00:03:22.900 with a lot in the next few years, it's going to be even more change than the last few years made 54 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:29.840 just swallow yeah but then the second thing is how do we create change and you said something 55 00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:33.900 really interesting to me when we were chatting before this podcast that actually being open being 56 00:03:34.422 --> 00:03:40.100 open-minded is not something that comes naturally to you even though you know yes how important it 57 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:44.200 is yeah and so you've got different ways of understanding openness so you've got natural 58 00:03:44.321 --> 00:03:48.060 openness so if you look at the big five personality styles you've got openness is one of the core 59 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:48.502 traits. 60 00:03:49.225 --> 00:03:51.172 And on that scale, I'm actually very low. 61 00:03:51.453 --> 00:03:52.839 I'm not a particularly open person. 62 00:03:52.859 --> 00:03:53.140 I love 63 00:03:53.361 --> 00:03:53.863 routine. 64 00:03:53.984 --> 00:03:54.807 I love predictability. 65 00:03:54.827 --> 00:03:55.771 I love the status quo. 66 00:03:55.791 --> 00:03:57.760 And it's funny in speaker land, 67 00:03:57.860 --> 00:04:01.360 and you'll have seen this over the years too, how often you see a speaker on stage who 68 00:04:02.103 --> 00:04:05.820 is speaking with great authority about something that they actually struggle with themselves. 69 00:04:06.780 --> 00:04:11.859 And sometimes you can see that because is that a level of hypocrisy or a lack of congruity? 70 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:12.060 I think 71 00:04:12.200 --> 00:04:14.610 the reality is we teach what we most need to learn. 72 00:04:15.152 --> 00:04:17.200 And so for me, trying to be open-minded 73 00:04:17.260 --> 00:04:22.480 and curious and adaptable because it's not natural for me means that I can teach from it, 74 00:04:23.183 --> 00:04:25.715 I guess, for the level of authority because I've had to work it out. 75 00:04:25.836 --> 00:04:26.680 I've had to constantly 76 00:04:26.961 --> 00:04:28.247 push myself to do it. 77 00:04:28.709 --> 00:04:31.000 And so that I think is better than someone who's just one of these 78 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:35.137 wonderfully free spirited, take anything as it comes in life type people. 79 00:04:35.197 --> 00:04:35.940 And I wish I was more 80 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:36.482 like that. 81 00:04:37.226 --> 00:04:37.989 A lot of us aren't. 82 00:04:38.070 --> 00:04:40.300 And I think in corporate leadership, a lot of corporate leaders 83 00:04:40.521 --> 00:04:40.722 aren't. 84 00:04:40.823 --> 00:04:44.260 The things that made them successful as corporate leaders, they're linear, they're 85 00:04:44.280 --> 00:04:49.780 methodical they're the a type driven personalities they like to control all the variables means that 86 00:04:49.780 --> 00:04:55.620 their blind spot is that like me they're not necessarily naturally curious so we need to be 87 00:04:55.700 --> 00:05:02.480 open-minded in the face of change we're also in a world where we need to project confidence we need 88 00:05:02.520 --> 00:05:09.300 to project expertise why is it so important to master this ability to change your mind yeah i 89 00:05:09.320 --> 00:05:14.180 think the reality is if you aren't willing to change your thinking you you're essentially 90 00:05:14.381 --> 00:05:20.360 solving yesterday's problems or with yesterday's thinking but in a world where yesterday doesn't 91 00:05:20.400 --> 00:05:25.600 exist anymore and so you're using a playbook and the phrase I often use or the term with clients 92 00:05:25.741 --> 00:05:30.760 is there's you can't find new treasure if you're using an outdated map and if you think about our 93 00:05:30.880 --> 00:05:36.200 map being our assumption set our thinking that the playbook that's worked for years if you're 94 00:05:36.220 --> 00:05:41.160 just doubling down on what worked yesterday or the year before and trying to execute it more 95 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:45.240 effectively in the future the landscape shifted and so the challenge for all of us is how do we 96 00:05:45.300 --> 00:05:51.940 keep our thinking fresh and agile and probably as humble as well as curious like humble to realize 97 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:57.060 that what worked in the past might not work in the future that's confronting that requires us 98 00:05:57.140 --> 00:06:00.660 to lay down some of our ego because some of the very things that have worked well for us we then 99 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:05.580 attach our identity to we are successful because of and then you list out the things that you've 100 00:06:05.620 --> 00:06:05.881 done. 101 00:06:06.062 --> 00:06:08.854 But that worked then, the context has shifted. 102 00:06:09.396 --> 00:06:10.340 And so I think for all of us, that 103 00:06:10.661 --> 00:06:15.980 constant willingness to be curious and open-minded and humble, again, it's not a natural posture, 104 00:06:16.100 --> 00:06:20.759 especially in this sort of Western corporate, I'm going to project absolute certainty mindset. 105 00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:25.799 Interestingly, the research around this shows that actually leaders who lead with some level of 106 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:31.640 doubt, vulnerability, honesty, transparency, tend to trigger the same things in their teams. 107 00:06:32.141 --> 00:06:33.160 It means people step forward. 108 00:06:33.460 --> 00:06:34.900 They bring their best ideas to the table. 109 00:06:35.100 --> 00:06:36.379 That's when innovation starts. 110 00:06:36.620 --> 00:06:39.920 I wonder sometimes if people think they're not going to get to that position of leadership. 111 00:06:40.100 --> 00:06:42.660 They listen to what you're saying and go, yeah, I kind of get that. 112 00:06:42.840 --> 00:06:51.780 If I'm the authority of leadership, if I'm the new incoming CEO of Apple, yeah, I've probably got permission to stand on a stage and say, I don't know everything. 113 00:06:51.880 --> 00:06:54.300 And everyone goes, well, you probably do because you're the new CEO. 114 00:06:54.740 --> 00:07:01.160 But do people wonder if they're not going to get that opportunity if they don't project that absolute sense of certainty and expertise? 115 00:07:01.840 --> 00:07:05.082 It is tricky because there is a little bit of that fake it till you make it that you often see. 116 00:07:05.102 --> 00:07:06.603 And we've all been there early in our careers. 117 00:07:06.623 --> 00:07:10.086 When you walk into rooms, you're like, I'm not sure if I'm meant to be here. 118 00:07:10.226 --> 00:07:12.708 I don't know if I'm qualified enough to be in the room. 119 00:07:12.728 --> 00:07:15.029 And then sometimes that leads into imposter syndrome. 120 00:07:15.609 --> 00:07:22.514 The reality is there's probably a little place for almost leading with the physicality and letting the belief follow. 121 00:07:22.714 --> 00:07:24.536 Sometimes you need to walk in with your chest out. 122 00:07:24.576 --> 00:07:25.756 I've got something to add here. 123 00:07:25.796 --> 00:07:26.857 I'm going to own my space. 124 00:07:27.598 --> 00:07:28.959 I'm keen to learn. 125 00:07:28.999 --> 00:07:29.659 I'm keen to listen. 126 00:07:29.679 --> 00:07:30.720 But I also want to contribute. 127 00:07:31.301 --> 00:07:35.440 I'm not going to just stand back and be a weak, passive voice in the room. 128 00:07:35.660 --> 00:07:45.400 But at the same time, if that bravado then gets to the point where it's almost like you can't listen anymore because now you've built this solid facade and you've always got to have the best answers. 129 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:52.060 Often you see this in people where they project that sense of flawlessness and it's actually a very brittle facade. 130 00:07:53.020 --> 00:07:56.700 There's a sense of constantly need to defend against being found out or caught out. 131 00:07:57.180 --> 00:07:59.680 It's not a strong, well-grounded place. 132 00:07:59.841 --> 00:08:04.680 I mean, the best leaders and the best humans are the ones who are sure about what they know. 133 00:08:05.123 --> 00:08:06.480 Their convictions are strong. 134 00:08:07.100 --> 00:08:10.240 And in fact, once you've got strong convictions, it gives you permission to be curious. 135 00:08:10.400 --> 00:08:17.100 It's when people aren't sure of who they are, they tend to gravitate toward this projected sense that they're all over the details. 136 00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:17.920 They're in control. 137 00:08:18.100 --> 00:08:19.020 They're flawless. 138 00:08:19.541 --> 00:08:20.860 And then all it takes is one thing. 139 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:25.380 But it actually comes across as almost an insecure and brittle sense of expertise. 140 00:08:25.500 --> 00:08:29.360 So talking about being humble, talk about having to change your own mind. 141 00:08:30.543 --> 00:08:35.160 it's it's um i mean it's something we all have to do and i i look back there's a few things i've 142 00:08:35.220 --> 00:08:38.459 changed my mind over in the last little while in fact i was thinking of it this morning as i 143 00:08:38.982 --> 00:08:43.820 peeled my mouth tape off as i woke up you know as i've been taping my mouth for the last 144 00:08:44.422 --> 00:08:48.800 few months have you tried this i have not okay so mouth tape if you're welcome to mouth taping 145 00:08:49.662 --> 00:08:56.360 i know so when i first heard about in fact i doing a segment on the future of sleep on sunrise 146 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:57.159 a few months ago. 147 00:08:57.861 --> 00:08:59.260 And so I was reading about all the different things, 148 00:08:59.340 --> 00:09:01.620 the fads that are sort of taking over the sleep world, 149 00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:02.520 the sleep industry, right? 150 00:09:02.540 --> 00:09:03.540 There's a whole industry of sleep. 151 00:09:03.940 --> 00:09:05.380 And it's all these beds that have got, you know, 152 00:09:05.842 --> 00:09:08.060 water that flows through them and changes the temperature 153 00:09:08.202 --> 00:09:09.579 as your body changes throughout the night. 154 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:10.880 You know, all very fancy stuff. 155 00:09:11.361 --> 00:09:13.320 But I talked about mouth tape and I read and I thought, 156 00:09:13.683 --> 00:09:15.180 this feels like a massive fad. 157 00:09:15.540 --> 00:09:20.440 All the people I read about who were using it were the influencer types 158 00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:23.978 who also do ice baths and, you know, like keto diets. 159 00:09:24.601 --> 00:09:30.520 and well more so i look at them and think i'm not that person i'm not the extreme like ice bath 160 00:09:30.680 --> 00:09:35.160 keto diet human so just because they're doing it doesn't mean i'm probably going to be open to it 161 00:09:35.642 --> 00:09:40.760 until my mother-in-law said i've tried this mouth tape and like i'm sleeping better than i've ever 162 00:09:40.820 --> 00:09:46.700 slept i'm like she is not an ice bath keto diet human she's very sensible very measured i'm like 163 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:52.160 well if she thinks it works i'll give it a try and honestly so good so i've started to like snore 164 00:09:52.301 --> 00:09:54.139 like a lot of dudes at a certain age. 165 00:09:54.745 --> 00:09:55.700 And it stopped instantly. 166 00:09:56.224 --> 00:09:57.240 And I've never slept badly. 167 00:09:57.380 --> 00:10:01.180 I've never been one who's woken up with that dusty sense of I'm tired, 168 00:10:01.500 --> 00:10:02.719 but I slept so much better with it. 169 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:05.140 But it did take that moment of I'm now someone who, 170 00:10:05.300 --> 00:10:07.680 and then fill in the blanks, uses mouth tape. 171 00:10:07.760 --> 00:10:10.960 And it's all these little things that you look back and to take on something new, 172 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:12.538 you've got to give up something old. 173 00:10:13.541 --> 00:10:15.780 And that's an example of just something very simple. 174 00:10:15.880 --> 00:10:18.280 And even the last few months, I've changed my thinking about it. 175 00:10:18.301 --> 00:10:18.960 I used to diss it. 176 00:10:19.040 --> 00:10:20.560 I was like, who'd tape your mouth? 177 00:10:20.560 --> 00:10:21.840 It's like where your muzzle to sleep. 178 00:10:21.920 --> 00:10:25.120 And then suddenly I'm now the person at party saying, hey, you've got to try this. 179 00:10:25.181 --> 00:10:25.759 It's really cool. 180 00:10:26.462 --> 00:10:28.119 Another thing I've changed my mind about. 181 00:10:28.340 --> 00:10:31.000 So I've always been, because I'm from the country, I didn't grow up in Sydney. 182 00:10:31.580 --> 00:10:35.900 And so I prided myself on being someone who doesn't close or lock their doors at night. 183 00:10:36.180 --> 00:10:40.320 I'm like, oh, I'm not one of these neurotic, terrified people who lives with anxiety. 184 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:43.580 I'm like, just, you know, just leave the doors unlocked, especially in summer. 185 00:10:44.300 --> 00:10:49.460 Anyway, so I'm chatting with a mate of mine who actually is a cop, but he grew up about five streets away from where we live now. 186 00:10:49.781 --> 00:10:54.380 has moved out of the area since but knows the area well and i was telling him because he's a real no 187 00:10:54.520 --> 00:10:58.260 nonsense like rough sort of cop he's just like very pragmatic and i was telling him about this 188 00:10:59.063 --> 00:11:03.840 and his face just dropped he went sorry dude what you don't lock your doors and i'm like yeah and i 189 00:11:04.182 --> 00:11:07.820 don't knock on my doors you know i just you know our suburb's really safe he's like so just so you 190 00:11:07.900 --> 00:11:11.880 know and he started to go through some of the crimes in the last two or three weeks in our 191 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:16.638 suburb i'm like are you serious and it was just something about that conversation i've been a 192 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:19.551 door locker for the first time in my life. 193 00:11:19.832 --> 00:11:21.419 And it's not even a terrified thing. 194 00:11:21.439 --> 00:11:21.740 It's not an 195 00:11:21.901 --> 00:11:22.363 anxious thing. 196 00:11:22.383 --> 00:11:23.711 It's just a prudent, sensible thing. 197 00:11:23.731 --> 00:11:25.460 And I think what changed my mind because 198 00:11:25.520 --> 00:11:26.606 my identity was rooted. 199 00:11:26.687 --> 00:11:29.060 I'm not someone who does that to now I am someone who does that. 200 00:11:29.180 --> 00:11:30.103 What changed my mind? 201 00:11:30.505 --> 00:11:33.717 It was the person who communicated the idea to me. 202 00:11:33.797 --> 00:11:34.480 I trusted them. 203 00:11:34.980 --> 00:11:35.964 They had credibility. 204 00:11:36.747 --> 00:11:38.635 I saw them as being like me. 205 00:11:39.056 --> 00:11:40.020 If they were a neurotic person, 206 00:11:40.060 --> 00:11:42.320 I've had so many people over the years say, oh, you've got to lock your doors, 207 00:11:42.400 --> 00:11:43.286 but they're the neurotic people. 208 00:11:43.327 --> 00:11:45.119 I don't listen because they're not like me. 209 00:11:45.401 --> 00:11:51.480 that tribalism thing that kicks in so you changed not just your behavior yeah but your sense of 210 00:11:51.681 --> 00:11:56.320 identity you went from being i am michael a man who does not lock his doors and stuff yeah do i 211 00:11:56.460 --> 00:12:04.760 michael i lock up at night yeah that's a profound shift yeah why do so many of us get stuck why do 212 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:11.540 so many of us get stuck and find ourselves unable to make shifts that often would be better for us 213 00:12:11.881 --> 00:12:14.940 better for our families, better for the planet, better for something that matters to us. 214 00:12:15.500 --> 00:12:16.385 Why do people get stuck? 215 00:12:16.586 --> 00:12:19.440 Well, you often hear that the reason for that is because we're all 216 00:12:19.460 --> 00:12:23.920 just afraid of change, whether it's changing a habit or a process or changing our mind or 217 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:24.663 whatever it is. 218 00:12:25.425 --> 00:12:28.577 And we hear that so often, we just assume it's true and it's not. 219 00:12:28.898 --> 00:12:29.440 So we're not afraid 220 00:12:29.520 --> 00:12:30.825 of change as humans. 221 00:12:31.247 --> 00:12:34.660 What we're afraid of that typically causes us to dig our heels into push 222 00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:38.835 back to not adjust as the reality around us changes is a fear of loss. 223 00:12:39.558 --> 00:12:40.100 So the moment there's 224 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:46.080 loss involved in change, that's when that trigger of reactance or resistance is kicked off in all 225 00:12:46.140 --> 00:12:46.361 of us. 226 00:12:46.542 --> 00:12:47.969 And for some, it's stronger than others. 227 00:12:48.612 --> 00:12:50.440 And so there are three losses that typically, 228 00:12:50.680 --> 00:12:53.820 I mean, I've certainly found in the client work that I've done around this stuff, but also just 229 00:12:53.920 --> 00:12:56.611 the research that I've read over the years, three losses. 230 00:12:56.692 --> 00:12:58.660 So the loss of familiarity is massive, 231 00:12:59.261 --> 00:13:01.952 the loss of power, and the loss of dignity. 232 00:13:02.454 --> 00:13:03.900 So if you look at those, the loss of dignity is about 233 00:13:04.060 --> 00:13:10.140 ego, this idea of, again, if I am this person and I need to admit that maybe I was wrong, 234 00:13:10.521 --> 00:13:12.489 how do I change my mind without losing face? 235 00:13:13.051 --> 00:13:15.100 And so you've got to give people the ability to feel 236 00:13:15.261 --> 00:13:18.840 right in the process of changing their minds because our brains would actually rather feel 237 00:13:18.940 --> 00:13:19.765 right than be right. 238 00:13:20.267 --> 00:13:22.860 And so if you're trying to get people to be open to change, how do you give 239 00:13:22.860 --> 00:13:25.171 them a path to save face while they change their mind? 240 00:13:25.633 --> 00:13:27.200 The second one, the loss of power is massive. 241 00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:32.260 The moment there's a sense that if I change, I might become less relevant or less necessary, 242 00:13:32.381 --> 00:13:36.120 less essential i'm a little some of the power i've currently got it's amazing if deep down we 243 00:13:36.180 --> 00:13:40.020 know it's a good idea we'll dig our heels in but it's the first one that loss of familiarity that 244 00:13:40.060 --> 00:13:45.480 i think is so often involved this idea that i know the status quo if you want to move outside of that 245 00:13:46.002 --> 00:13:50.000 that's unfamiliar territory and i can ask her a great example this recently i was chatting with 246 00:13:50.020 --> 00:13:55.200 a colleague she's a an exercise physiologist so she gets called to go in and basically adjust 247 00:13:55.300 --> 00:14:00.500 people's work spaces when their necks are messed up and their wrists are sore and like because 248 00:14:00.761 --> 00:14:04.480 their monitors too high or their keypads in the wrong thing or desk hard is all out of whack 249 00:14:05.002 --> 00:14:10.360 so she'll go and typically by request from the person who is in pain they're often on a treatment 250 00:14:10.601 --> 00:14:14.760 plan for all sorts of injuries so she'll go in and and it takes her no time at all she'll be like 251 00:14:14.760 --> 00:14:18.400 if we just move your monitor here move your keyboard there desk down a bit chair a bit higher 252 00:14:19.063 --> 00:14:23.500 and and at the end of the consult the people will say oh my goodness this is i just feel so different 253 00:14:23.580 --> 00:14:28.260 like i wish i'd done this two years ago and so she'll often go into an organization and do a 254 00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:32.700 series of these all in a row and then she notices within an hour or two she'll go she'll walk back 255 00:14:32.800 --> 00:14:38.180 through that floor to head back out door out of their building and 90 of the people have put their 256 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:43.560 desks back to where they were the monitor's down again absolutely because it's unfamiliar and like 257 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:48.520 in asumers we'll often like we'll even opt for unhappiness over unfamiliarity like we'll stick 258 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:53.240 with things that we hate but it feels familiar so we'll stick with them just because our brains 259 00:14:53.761 --> 00:14:54.825 love familiarity. 260 00:14:56.168 --> 00:15:00.080 I think this is such a critical point and it's part of a bigger conversation about 261 00:15:00.160 --> 00:15:04.835 the gap between things that sound right and things that actually work. 262 00:15:05.196 --> 00:15:06.420 We'd all say that we want to 263 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:11.536 be happy, but it turns out what we really crave is the comfort of familiarity. 264 00:15:11.837 --> 00:15:12.620 Rory Sutherland is a 265 00:15:12.740 --> 00:15:15.857 wonderful thinker in this space of behavioral science and behavioral economics. 266 00:15:15.877 --> 00:15:16.340 He wrote a book 267 00:15:16.681 --> 00:15:17.504 called Alchemy. 268 00:15:17.825 --> 00:15:21.780 And one of the points that always stuck with me from his book was how when we are 269 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:26.240 asked about decisions, we'll say, well, I made the decision that I thought was optimal for me. 270 00:15:26.781 --> 00:15:31.678 But the truth is often that people make the decision that minimizes the risk to them. 271 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:32.300 So for 272 00:15:32.340 --> 00:15:37.200 me, the point about this is whatever we're doing as leaders, as marketers, as brand builders, 273 00:15:37.640 --> 00:15:42.200 as builders of campaigns, movements, whatever it is, we maybe need to focus a little bit less on 274 00:15:42.220 --> 00:15:47.060 the things that we think are going to be inspiring to people and quite a lot more on the things that 275 00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:48.846 will be reassuring to them. 276 00:15:50.410 --> 00:15:53.460 This is such a key thing, I think, for not just people trying to 277 00:15:53.520 --> 00:15:56.548 drive change away from a negative. 278 00:15:56.568 --> 00:16:01.460 So we think, all of us as consumers, we think we are optimizers, 279 00:16:01.880 --> 00:16:04.671 but actually we are risk minimizers. 280 00:16:04.711 --> 00:16:06.679 I thought about this a lot with Four Pillars. 281 00:16:06.719 --> 00:16:06.960 I'm like, 282 00:16:07.280 --> 00:16:13.080 look, as much as I want to believe that someone walks into a Dan Murphy's and puts back the bottle 283 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:16.740 of Hendrix and picks up the bottle of Four Pillars because they're excited to try something 284 00:16:16.820 --> 00:16:17.162 different. 285 00:16:17.745 --> 00:16:20.960 The reality is they're more likely to put back the bottle of four pillars because of the 286 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:24.289 risk that at first sip, they won't like it. 287 00:16:24.329 --> 00:16:28.520 So actually, I've got to focus much more on reassurance 288 00:16:29.143 --> 00:16:30.329 and much less on inspiration. 289 00:16:30.349 --> 00:16:32.400 I think it's all about positivity, but actually a lot of it is 290 00:16:32.420 --> 00:16:33.525 about safety. 291 00:16:33.646 --> 00:16:33.806 Yep. 292 00:16:34.108 --> 00:16:34.289 Yep. 293 00:16:34.751 --> 00:16:36.760 And so I think for all of us, we've got to be aware of what are the things 294 00:16:36.780 --> 00:16:39.188 that trigger that fear of the new. 295 00:16:39.710 --> 00:16:42.620 How often are interruptions or disruptions a blessing in disguise? 296 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.520 And rather than wait till they hit, how do you try and disrupt yourself a little bit? 297 00:16:46.580 --> 00:16:53.100 Look, I got back from a week in New York, as you know, and I've used to live in New York and have tried to get there every couple of years. 298 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:57.680 I also, for the last three years, have chaired the City of Sydney's Business Advisory Committee. 299 00:16:57.701 --> 00:16:58.140 I used to, yeah. 300 00:16:58.560 --> 00:17:07.880 And so you're thinking, you're sitting there thinking strategically about urban planning and the economy and how you create a more vibrant hospitality scene and all these things. 301 00:17:08.441 --> 00:17:11.900 And then you go to New York and this is a city that just sort of never changes. 302 00:17:12.140 --> 00:17:21.340 And yet the most profound change in New York's hospitality scene and dining scene is the outdoor dining that was caused by the interruption of COVID. 303 00:17:21.840 --> 00:17:25.860 And you're like all of these geniuses sitting around trying to plan how do we make our city better. 304 00:17:26.120 --> 00:17:31.940 And what it actually took was a pandemic forcing restaurants to create these little cabins for people to dine outside. 305 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.260 And then one change of the law, they're now permanent. 306 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:40.100 The whole of downtown Manhattan has this street energy it didn't used to have because of a pandemic. 307 00:17:40.120 --> 00:17:53.100 And so, again, to your point, not just as individuals, but our collective institutional curiosity still gravitates towards the familiar until something forces a disruption and a change. 308 00:17:54.043 --> 00:17:57.560 I want to come to driving change, but I've got one more question about this stuckness. 309 00:17:58.420 --> 00:18:07.520 You've talked in your work about this idea of identity-motivated reasoning, reasoning that helps us reinforce our sense of who we are in the world. 310 00:18:08.443 --> 00:18:13.919 what i want to ask you is is this getting worse are we in a landscape now driven i don't know by 311 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:22.620 by the algorithm yeah by anxiety by this absolute sense of the poly crisis and change is out of 312 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:29.800 control yeah is all of this making this this reinforcedness of stuckness worse not better 313 00:18:30.021 --> 00:18:35.640 at a time when we actually need to get better at being more open yeah it'd be hard to make a case 314 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:36.403 that it's not. 315 00:18:36.644 --> 00:18:40.859 However, I take comfort in some of the work being done by a couple of groups. 316 00:18:40.979 --> 00:18:41.160 One is 317 00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:45.240 a research group based in the UK, and they've got offices around the world now called More in Common. 318 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:49.558 And More in Common have looked at tribalism, and especially what they call hidden tribes. 319 00:18:49.598 --> 00:18:49.920 So it's 320 00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:54.960 not just polarised, like left and right, Republican, Democrat, Labour, Liberal, there's just all these 321 00:18:55.080 --> 00:18:56.065 tribes in between. 322 00:18:56.145 --> 00:18:59.580 And their work has looked at how many people are actually in the middle, 323 00:19:00.221 --> 00:19:03.874 not polarised, and actually really tired, really sick of it. 324 00:19:04.335 --> 00:19:05.580 And in fact, the number of people 325 00:19:05.942 --> 00:19:09.940 Jay Van Bavel, who's a researcher over at NYU, has looked at this as well. 326 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:17.740 He talks about the fact that the vast bulk of the content you see on social media is from a vanishingly small percentage of the population. 327 00:19:17.980 --> 00:19:22.520 So you can get the sense that we're all so polarized, the majority of people are just in the middle. 328 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.000 Not radicalized, not crazy, just getting on with life. 329 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:33.600 And so even though I think there is a sense that we are more, you know, in our corners, a bit more trivially triggered, there is some encouragement. 330 00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:37.060 I think that that's sometimes a projection online that doesn't reflect reality. 331 00:19:37.340 --> 00:19:40.300 So if we just maybe the optimists in us can cling to that. 332 00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:41.360 Maybe we're not all so polarized. 333 00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:53.880 However, I do think if you sort of set that aside, this limbic response of our brain, this response of, you know, what has kept us safe, alive as a species from learning of the fight and flight reflex. 334 00:19:54.565 --> 00:19:56.560 this part of our brain that responds to threat. 335 00:19:57.180 --> 00:19:59.700 And we do fight and flight when it's a physical threat. 336 00:19:59.800 --> 00:20:01.400 When it's a psychological threat, 337 00:20:01.941 --> 00:20:03.340 this notion that people don't want to hear 338 00:20:03.360 --> 00:20:04.240 what they don't want to hear. 339 00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:06.540 And in the moment, I'm exposed to ideas or information 340 00:20:06.701 --> 00:20:09.440 from the other side or from a source 341 00:20:09.581 --> 00:20:11.480 that challenges my assumptions, 342 00:20:11.682 --> 00:20:13.260 that forces me to have to rethink. 343 00:20:13.820 --> 00:20:15.720 Our limbic system, our limbic response 344 00:20:15.801 --> 00:20:17.840 isn't fight and flight, it's deny or defend. 345 00:20:18.521 --> 00:20:20.100 And how quickly that's being triggered. 346 00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:21.020 And I think there's a couple of things 347 00:20:21.020 --> 00:20:22.319 that are making us more trigger happy, 348 00:20:23.144 --> 00:20:26.640 more reactive to things, partly we're overwhelmed. 349 00:20:26.900 --> 00:20:28.280 There's that sense of just people, 350 00:20:29.446 --> 00:20:31.740 you're one of those when you're tired, when you're fatigued, 351 00:20:32.301 --> 00:20:33.820 your reactions are less measured. 352 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:35.420 Your executive function is impaired. 353 00:20:35.520 --> 00:20:37.760 The part of your brain that actually tells your limbic system, 354 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:40.380 just calm down, like don't fly off the handle. 355 00:20:40.560 --> 00:20:43.280 So there is that, the sense that we are fatigued, 356 00:20:43.422 --> 00:20:44.039 that we're overwhelmed. 357 00:20:44.541 --> 00:20:45.799 The other interesting thing, there was some research 358 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:47.880 I came across during the first lockdown in COVID 359 00:20:48.021 --> 00:20:50.360 was some research done at the University of Chicago 360 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:53.018 where they actually looked at the influence of isolation 361 00:20:53.706 --> 00:20:54.680 on people's amygdala. 362 00:20:55.101 --> 00:20:56.440 So your amygdala is the part of your brain 363 00:20:56.500 --> 00:20:58.640 that is the primary sort of element of your limbic system. 364 00:20:58.760 --> 00:21:01.040 It's where a lot of those fight-flight reflexes come from. 365 00:21:01.501 --> 00:21:03.819 What they found is the shape of the amygdala changes 366 00:21:04.749 --> 00:21:05.780 depending on a whole bunch of things. 367 00:21:05.840 --> 00:21:08.120 But one of the things they tracked was the impact of isolation. 368 00:21:08.800 --> 00:21:12.080 So when you are not solidly connected in community with other humans, 369 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:16.620 your amygdala essentially becomes heightened, more sensitive. 370 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:18.859 And so at one time you've got like, 371 00:21:19.141 --> 00:21:26.060 And we hear so much about probably one of the things that worries me most in society right now is the younger generation who are lonely, isolated. 372 00:21:26.862 --> 00:21:29.540 And you can talk about all the mental health risks around that. 373 00:21:29.620 --> 00:21:37.360 You can talk about the social cohesion, the failure to thrive of 23-year-olds who are at home in the basement gaming rather than hanging out with their friends. 374 00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:38.499 There's a lot of that going on. 375 00:21:38.841 --> 00:21:48.300 But the impact on brain function is interesting and really concerning because it means that amygdala response, that limbic reaction, when you're not in community and connected with real humans. 376 00:21:48.681 --> 00:21:54.740 not online i'm talking real humans in community your reactions get warped this goes to a really 377 00:21:54.881 --> 00:22:00.080 almost physical understanding of what it means to be open right and where yeah you know we're both 378 00:22:00.301 --> 00:22:05.420 we're both parents of kids and wrestling with social media bands and all those things but 379 00:22:05.540 --> 00:22:09.820 actually it's more than that isn't it it's the it's the netflix culture it's the uber eats culture 380 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:15.220 it's the culture that means you can stream content online you can game online you can pretty much 381 00:22:15.340 --> 00:22:21.080 explore the whole world from your basement, from your living room, which is the antithesis of being 382 00:22:21.281 --> 00:22:27.000 open and being out in the world and not being isolated physically, socially, intellectually. 383 00:22:27.620 --> 00:22:33.878 So I think that's a wonderful pivot point to go on a personal level, embrace openness. 384 00:22:33.918 --> 00:22:34.440 And I want 385 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:39.557 to talk in a bit about some of the things that you've done as a human to be more open. 386 00:22:40.259 --> 00:22:40.560 But let's 387 00:22:40.600 --> 00:22:45.100 then shift to the to the leadership perspective i remember reading daniel pink's book years ago 388 00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:50.000 drive oh yeah he talks about the positive things that motivate people and his central thesis was 389 00:22:50.402 --> 00:22:54.640 once people have enough money it's no longer money it's about giving them purpose it's about 390 00:22:54.720 --> 00:23:00.040 giving them a sense of autonomy it's about helping them with a sense of mastery yep but what i love 391 00:23:00.100 --> 00:23:07.100 about what you've talked about with the sense of loss and the dislike of loss is they're almost the 392 00:23:07.321 --> 00:23:08.448 the antonyms of those things. 393 00:23:08.468 --> 00:23:10.600 You're like, yeah, but actually, they're not going to do the thing 394 00:23:10.620 --> 00:23:14.920 you want them to do if they're going to feel it is unfamiliar, if it's going to feel they're going 395 00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:17.487 to lose power, lose dignity. 396 00:23:17.647 --> 00:23:22.420 So talk to us now as the leaders we are, because all of us, as we said 397 00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:26.940 at the top, we're all trying to lead some form of change, whether someone's listening to this and 398 00:23:26.980 --> 00:23:31.280 they want to shift their career and they want people to take them seriously as a professional 399 00:23:31.381 --> 00:23:34.800 in a different field, whether they're trying to raise investment for a new business, whether 400 00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:39.100 they're trying to get a promotion, whether they're a CEO or a founder trying to lead a company, 401 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:44.920 an educator, everyone's trying to get someone else to change what they think, change what they feel, 402 00:23:45.060 --> 00:23:45.943 change what they do. 403 00:23:48.832 --> 00:23:51.560 You've talked about this idea that nothing changes until minds change. 404 00:23:52.042 --> 00:23:55.620 What are leaders getting wrong about driving change and changing minds? 405 00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:59.560 Well, I think probably the first thing, and it's such a natural thing for many of us to do, 406 00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:04.480 especially in a Western context, because we are a product of the enlightenment, this idea that, 407 00:24:04.702 --> 00:24:06.860 Francis Bacon, knowledge is power. 408 00:24:07.020 --> 00:24:10.080 This idea that if we can just educate people better, 409 00:24:10.280 --> 00:24:12.560 I mean, there's a core assumption in Francis Bacon's work 410 00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:15.398 that if someone's not being reasonable or seeing logic, 411 00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:17.020 then there's a knowledge gap. 412 00:24:17.180 --> 00:24:18.719 And so if you can just plug that knowledge gap, 413 00:24:19.340 --> 00:24:21.100 they'll see the light, they'll change their mind, 414 00:24:21.827 --> 00:24:22.800 they'll shift their view. 415 00:24:23.040 --> 00:24:25.400 And that'd be nice if it was true, but it's not. 416 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:26.480 I mean, it's never been true, 417 00:24:26.580 --> 00:24:29.500 but it's less true now than it was even 40 years ago. 418 00:24:29.620 --> 00:24:31.380 We are so sceptical. 419 00:24:31.881 --> 00:24:33.660 We are so fiercely individualistic. 420 00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:38.320 The moment we feel like someone's impinging on our agency, we push back so quickly. 421 00:24:38.481 --> 00:24:39.719 This reflex in all of us. 422 00:24:39.980 --> 00:24:46.560 So the things that might have worked for our grandparents' generation as leaders, where you could just tell people to do something because that's what was expected. 423 00:24:46.600 --> 00:24:54.240 That almost deference, deference to authority, deference to knowledge, perceived expertise is replaced by what? 424 00:24:54.701 --> 00:24:57.279 So typically it's got to start with trust. 425 00:24:57.700 --> 00:24:59.840 So trust is vitally important in all this. 426 00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:06.760 So if you go right back 2,000 years ago, Aristotle's work on rhetoric, you know, talked about the three fundamentals of rhetoric. 427 00:25:06.941 --> 00:25:08.319 So ethos, pathos, logos. 428 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:11.120 So logos is appealing to those logical faculties. 429 00:25:11.900 --> 00:25:18.020 Pathos is about the emotions, but it's ethos that I think we undercook the most right now. 430 00:25:18.080 --> 00:25:22.520 But it's the one that gives us the best chance of having someone be open to what it is that we're going to suggest. 431 00:25:22.620 --> 00:25:26.000 So ethos is a function of being credible and being trustworthy. 432 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:30.860 worthy and so as a leader the corporate principle is people aren't going to listen to you until they 433 00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:35.640 like you until there's a sense of trust and so what are the things that cause trust that trust 434 00:25:35.801 --> 00:25:40.260 reaction or response in someone else because that lays the foundation for them to be open-minded to 435 00:25:40.340 --> 00:25:45.420 be willing to consider what you're suggesting so if you look at paul zach's work so paul zach if 436 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.380 you haven't heard of him he's a great researcher at claremont graduate university over in california 437 00:25:49.962 --> 00:25:54.880 he's essentially the first researcher decades ago now has started to study oxytocin so that 438 00:25:54.980 --> 00:25:57.329 social bonding hormone, like how does it function? 439 00:25:57.369 --> 00:25:58.373 How does it operate? 440 00:25:58.875 --> 00:26:00.080 Now what's its half-life in 441 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:00.763 our brains? 442 00:26:00.783 --> 00:26:03.233 I mean, his work is properly pioneering. 443 00:26:03.675 --> 00:26:04.940 So what he's looked at is how do you 444 00:26:05.040 --> 00:26:06.568 trigger oxytocin in someone else? 445 00:26:06.588 --> 00:26:08.940 So if you're going to have a connection that means that 446 00:26:08.980 --> 00:26:12.980 someone's going to be open, he's got some great insights, but one of the most simple insights 447 00:26:13.040 --> 00:26:17.296 from Paul Zak is the importance of getting in sync with another person. 448 00:26:17.337 --> 00:26:18.240 So synchronicity can 449 00:26:18.280 --> 00:26:19.024 be all sorts of things. 450 00:26:19.084 --> 00:26:22.200 It can be matching the mood, matching the vibe, showing points of 451 00:26:22.260 --> 00:26:25.894 commonality, but even the physical element of being in sync. 452 00:26:26.436 --> 00:26:27.300 And so I remember doing a podcast 453 00:26:27.461 --> 00:26:30.240 interview with him a few years ago and said, you know, so if you're a leader and you've got someone 454 00:26:30.280 --> 00:26:34.120 who's resistant, they're digging their heels in, you know, that just giving them more information, 455 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:36.091 more evidence isn't going to open their minds. 456 00:26:36.111 --> 00:26:37.720 It'll probably cause them to double down. 457 00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:39.747 How do you get in sync with that person? 458 00:26:39.767 --> 00:26:41.736 So oxytocin flows, trust builds. 459 00:26:42.259 --> 00:26:42.520 And he said, 460 00:26:42.560 --> 00:26:44.028 well, so we've done some research. 461 00:26:44.048 --> 00:26:46.340 We found that clapping together and singing together 462 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:47.144 is really useful. 463 00:26:47.184 --> 00:26:50.400 It's just like choirs and faith communities have often a strong cohesion because 464 00:26:50.942 --> 00:26:53.230 singing, clapping actually gets our brains in sync. 465 00:26:53.612 --> 00:26:54.475 Mark, that's great. 466 00:26:54.897 --> 00:26:55.840 Not so useful if you're 467 00:26:56.061 --> 00:26:57.570 a leader with someone sitting opposite you. 468 00:26:57.590 --> 00:26:59.220 Can we just clap together briefly before we have that 469 00:26:59.320 --> 00:26:59.783 conversation? 470 00:26:59.803 --> 00:27:00.245 Doesn't work. 471 00:27:00.285 --> 00:27:01.250 So what does? 472 00:27:01.290 --> 00:27:03.160 So he said, interestingly, one of the most effective 473 00:27:03.280 --> 00:27:04.967 things, go for a walk. 474 00:27:05.771 --> 00:27:08.040 So because when you're walking side by side with someone, you will 475 00:27:08.080 --> 00:27:09.005 naturally get in step. 476 00:27:09.247 --> 00:27:09.850 You'll get in sync. 477 00:27:09.870 --> 00:27:10.795 You'll match their cadence. 478 00:27:10.876 --> 00:27:11.680 And when that happens, what 479 00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:14.129 the brain scans show is that oxytocin is released. 480 00:27:14.972 --> 00:27:17.020 They're far more open, more likely to consider 481 00:27:17.020 --> 00:27:17.905 of what you're suggesting. 482 00:27:18.106 --> 00:27:20.820 So you can have someone telling a story, but if it's not their story, 483 00:27:21.060 --> 00:27:25.860 even if they're presenting it in a way that seems so compellingly true, if it's not true, 484 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.630 unconsciously, the other person figures it out. 485 00:27:29.212 --> 00:27:30.820 Unconsciously, our brains know that it's not 486 00:27:30.840 --> 00:27:31.302 authentic. 487 00:27:31.362 --> 00:27:33.633 There's something about the lack of alignment and congruity. 488 00:27:34.115 --> 00:27:35.300 And so they will actually, 489 00:27:35.780 --> 00:27:38.012 they'll listen to it, but they're not as fully engaged. 490 00:27:38.032 --> 00:27:39.420 Their brains don't light up in the same 491 00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:40.907 way they would be if it was a real story. 492 00:27:41.228 --> 00:27:43.680 This is something I'm really fascinated about in the world 493 00:27:44.104 --> 00:27:45.360 of influences. 494 00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:48.620 One of the things right now that brands are trying to figure out 495 00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:50.740 is who can speak on our behalf. 496 00:27:51.902 --> 00:27:54.980 We brands in the 20th century, we spoke for ourselves. 497 00:27:55.281 --> 00:27:58.340 We went to the Madison Avenue advertising agency. 498 00:27:58.620 --> 00:28:00.019 We made the 30-second spot. 499 00:28:00.321 --> 00:28:02.780 We ran it on one of the big broadcast channels 500 00:28:02.901 --> 00:28:05.540 that the entire population was watching, and away we go. 501 00:28:05.741 --> 00:28:09.580 And that world has gone, and it's replaced with this fragmented world 502 00:28:10.122 --> 00:28:15.980 world where consumers have more power, channels are infinite, and often it feels like content 503 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:18.452 creators and influencers have a louder voice than brands. 504 00:28:18.472 --> 00:28:20.140 So look at something like the last US 505 00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:20.642 election. 506 00:28:21.244 --> 00:28:26.020 Everyone lost their minds when Taylor Swift, with her hundreds of millions of followers, 507 00:28:26.621 --> 00:28:27.766 came out and said, you know what? 508 00:28:28.248 --> 00:28:29.111 I think Kamala Harris. 509 00:28:30.095 --> 00:28:31.220 People couldn't believe that Taylor 510 00:28:31.641 --> 00:28:33.446 had taken the position, but she did. 511 00:28:34.389 --> 00:28:38.200 Then a much less significantly followed person, Joe Rogan, 512 00:28:39.067 --> 00:28:40.680 came out in favor of Trump. 513 00:28:41.180 --> 00:28:44.438 Now, Taylor Swift's following from memory is about 10 to 1 514 00:28:44.781 --> 00:28:45.739 besides Rogan's. 515 00:28:46.844 --> 00:28:49.260 But I think it's pretty clear that Rogan's endorsement 516 00:28:49.421 --> 00:28:53.460 had more impact on Trump's base and the waverers for Trump 517 00:28:53.802 --> 00:28:56.260 than Taylor Swift's endorsement had for Kamala Harris. 518 00:28:57.001 --> 00:29:01.219 So I look at your analysis of ethos and then I add a word 519 00:29:01.641 --> 00:29:03.600 which is sort of relevant ethos. 520 00:29:03.840 --> 00:29:05.000 Does that make sense to you? 521 00:29:05.321 --> 00:29:16.840 Yes, we can have this sense of shared humanity and ethos and trust, but there's always this secondary question of, is that feeling relevant to the decision I have to make here? 522 00:29:16.940 --> 00:29:23.480 And I'm not sure people felt Taylor Swift's endorsement was relevant, whereas others thought Joe Rogan's was. 523 00:29:24.081 --> 00:29:34.860 I think the interesting thing about ethos and persuasion generally is when someone is an unconventional ambassador, when they hold a position that isn't what you'd expect them to hold, that's what gets cut through. 524 00:29:35.001 --> 00:29:36.840 I think the reality is most people assumed 525 00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:38.840 Hella Swift would have been a Democrat-leaning human. 526 00:29:39.620 --> 00:29:41.920 So I think that doesn't get massive interest 527 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:43.300 because it's like, well, of course she'd say that 528 00:29:43.360 --> 00:29:45.580 because we sort of assume that will probably be the case. 529 00:29:45.982 --> 00:29:47.599 When someone says something you're not expecting 530 00:29:48.445 --> 00:29:50.960 and they've got a profile and credential 531 00:29:51.081 --> 00:29:53.260 of being upfront and real, it's far more compelling. 532 00:29:54.540 --> 00:29:56.579 What's a word that leaders should use more 533 00:29:57.042 --> 00:30:00.020 when they're trying to inspire minds to change? 534 00:30:00.582 --> 00:30:01.640 Oh, what a great question. 535 00:30:02.963 --> 00:30:04.820 I've never ever been asked this question. 536 00:30:04.901 --> 00:30:05.560 It's a really good one. 537 00:30:05.580 --> 00:30:06.620 I want to give it proper thought. 538 00:30:07.660 --> 00:30:08.639 Yeah, I've got an answer. 539 00:30:10.109 --> 00:30:10.480 One word. 540 00:30:10.580 --> 00:30:13.740 What is the one word that leaders should bear in mind 541 00:30:14.245 --> 00:30:15.520 when they're trying to change people's minds? 542 00:30:15.740 --> 00:30:19.960 Well, I think actually probably one word that I learned from Dr. Kirsten Ferguson. 543 00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:22.120 I don't know if you've read her book Blindspotting Yet. 544 00:30:22.361 --> 00:30:24.340 She'd be a great person for the podcast, actually. 545 00:30:24.580 --> 00:30:26.440 She talks about the power of the word yet. 546 00:30:27.641 --> 00:30:30.000 Yet has such potency in it. 547 00:30:30.080 --> 00:30:32.740 So if, for instance, as a leader, you're saying, I don't know. 548 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:36.580 you know we talked about curiosity and humility and openness that's great but don't just say i 549 00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:42.820 don't know yet at the end is absolutely critical because what yet does is it means i don't know 550 00:30:43.141 --> 00:30:46.900 but i'm open and i'm keen to go on the journey together it is like it is a core that sort of 551 00:30:46.940 --> 00:30:54.460 growth mindset type thing i wonder how often we lead with openness and humility but if it's just 552 00:30:54.560 --> 00:30:59.340 that complete laissez-faire like i don't know what do you all think that does lack the hard 553 00:30:59.461 --> 00:31:03.320 strong edge that leaders need yet at the end of that statement is probably the key one. 554 00:31:04.321 --> 00:31:10.560 Let's talk quickly about a little bit more about this notion of people preferring sometimes to 555 00:31:10.821 --> 00:31:12.385 feel right than be right. 556 00:31:13.769 --> 00:31:15.233 Do we know that that's what we're doing? 557 00:31:16.136 --> 00:31:17.440 When we are prioritizing the 558 00:31:17.520 --> 00:31:22.120 things that feel right rather than necessarily things that are right, are we conscious that's 559 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:22.722 what we're doing? 560 00:31:23.063 --> 00:31:28.260 Or are we also using the big rational part of our brains to rationalize that 561 00:31:28.320 --> 00:31:32.373 the thing that we feel is right is also logically right. 562 00:31:32.453 --> 00:31:32.734 Yeah. 563 00:31:33.095 --> 00:31:34.540 I think it all comes down to self 564 00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:35.142 awareness. 565 00:31:35.724 --> 00:31:40.040 There'll be many of us who have that ability to know that I'm holding a position right 566 00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:46.040 now that deep down I couldn't really defend, that I know probably isn't right, that is probably 567 00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:53.020 quite outdated, but I either couldn't be bothered changing it or it's too hard to change or to 568 00:31:53.140 --> 00:31:59.240 change in front of this particular person might be someone who has for years held that position 569 00:31:59.923 --> 00:32:03.660 and finally going you know what i'm suddenly realizing they're probably right that's that's 570 00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:08.120 a moment of ego hit right there so i think that even the most self-aware amongst us know that 571 00:32:08.140 --> 00:32:12.920 we're doing that but find it hard to overcome that because it does require us to swallow our pride to 572 00:32:13.181 --> 00:32:18.660 humble ourselves but i do think the reality is a lot of us a lot of us don't and around different 573 00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.124 issues, we'll have blind spots. 574 00:32:20.766 --> 00:32:25.720 We'll have things where we essentially have contradictions within 575 00:32:25.841 --> 00:32:30.300 our beliefs that are never held, never really brought into the light until someone like our 576 00:32:30.420 --> 00:32:35.000 kids, kids are a great source of doing this, they'll challenge you and ask you about a view 577 00:32:35.120 --> 00:32:38.816 that you've got that doesn't line up with a value that you say matters to you. 578 00:32:39.177 --> 00:32:39.800 And I think we've all 579 00:32:39.840 --> 00:32:44.680 got those things, whether it's around social issues or political issues, and they're often 580 00:32:44.740 --> 00:32:48.960 just unexamined assumptions or belief systems that we haven't thought about for years, but they've 581 00:32:48.980 --> 00:32:50.586 become so a part of us. 582 00:32:50.606 --> 00:32:52.552 It's a muscle memory around them. 583 00:32:52.592 --> 00:32:54.760 So we instantly react to an article 584 00:32:54.860 --> 00:33:00.540 we read or a podcast we listen to or a conversation over at a social function out of reflex without 585 00:33:00.580 --> 00:33:02.655 actually stopping and thinking, do I actually really agree with that? 586 00:33:02.675 --> 00:33:03.300 I'm not sure if I do 587 00:33:03.340 --> 00:33:03.661 anymore. 588 00:33:04.204 --> 00:33:07.498 So I think certainly there is a sense in which we can be aware, but it's costly. 589 00:33:07.518 --> 00:33:07.860 But most 590 00:33:07.940 --> 00:33:10.188 of us do operate on autopilot. 591 00:33:10.448 --> 00:33:12.636 Those tribal instincts are so strong. 592 00:33:13.398 --> 00:33:13.900 I think there is a 593 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:16.610 sense that for a lot of us, it's that reflex. 594 00:33:16.630 --> 00:33:19.020 And interestingly, that highly intelligent people 595 00:33:19.582 --> 00:33:26.040 are often the most prone to it because they've got the rational faculties to dig themselves in 596 00:33:26.080 --> 00:33:28.470 deeper and self-justify their beliefs. 597 00:33:28.510 --> 00:33:30.700 In fact, things like conspiracy beliefs, some of the 598 00:33:30.780 --> 00:33:35.697 strongest conspiracy belief adherents are highly educated, highly intelligent people. 599 00:33:35.717 --> 00:33:35.958 It's not a 600 00:33:36.560 --> 00:33:37.283 function of ignorance. 601 00:33:37.444 --> 00:33:40.154 Actually being super smart can be unhelpful. 602 00:33:40.696 --> 00:33:41.820 I want to talk a bit about some 603 00:33:41.820 --> 00:33:48.180 of the new work you're doing around not just being open-minded but living a life of curiosity 604 00:33:48.341 --> 00:33:53.320 and bringing an approach of curiosity because to me this is at the heart of it and i know that 605 00:33:53.741 --> 00:33:58.880 at the heart of this for you are your indie experiments yes that's right tell me about indie 606 00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:05.240 yeah so the the core idea behind this is the best way to retrain your brain to be open particularly 607 00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:09.579 if it doesn't come naturally to you because of your personality like me or maybe your position 608 00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:12.140 where everyone's looking to you for answers all the time. 609 00:34:12.240 --> 00:34:15.920 So you tend to defer to being certain rather than curious. 610 00:34:16.863 --> 00:34:18.220 How do you try and retrain your brain? 611 00:34:18.300 --> 00:34:20.600 So the best way to do this is to micro-dose novelty. 612 00:34:21.520 --> 00:34:23.920 Introduce small elements of things that are unfamiliar 613 00:34:24.102 --> 00:34:25.780 that feel safe to your brain 614 00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.214 because it's almost like exposure therapy 615 00:34:29.481 --> 00:34:31.260 for people who've got anxiety, for instance. 616 00:34:31.380 --> 00:34:33.820 You expose yourself to small doses of the thing that you're frightened of. 617 00:34:33.820 --> 00:34:37.439 Dose is small enough so the amygdala doesn't freak out and start to... 618 00:34:37.601 --> 00:34:38.280 Yeah, yeah. 619 00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:41.880 So you want to have, that doesn't feel too threatening, 620 00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:43.760 but just pushes you a bit out of your comfort zone. 621 00:34:43.940 --> 00:34:46.580 So the Indy experiment idea actually came from a conversation 622 00:34:46.782 --> 00:34:48.240 with a colleague of mine. 623 00:34:48.421 --> 00:34:51.720 So he's actually a retired Supreme Court barrister, 624 00:34:52.642 --> 00:34:55.020 incredibly intelligent, incredibly thoughtful. 625 00:34:56.184 --> 00:34:57.740 And I was chatting with him at an event, 626 00:34:58.060 --> 00:35:00.600 and I was just reflecting to him that despite his stature 627 00:35:00.941 --> 00:35:04.720 and how well regarded he is, talking to him, 628 00:35:04.740 --> 00:35:07.760 he is one of the most humble, open-minded, curious people. 629 00:35:07.982 --> 00:35:08.700 Just full of wonder. 630 00:35:09.060 --> 00:35:10.640 And he'd been in his late 80s now. 631 00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:13.820 So even at a life stage, from a life stage perspective, 632 00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:17.140 often by the time you get to that point, you are quite fixed in your thinking. 633 00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.200 That's often the natural pattern for humans. 634 00:35:19.720 --> 00:35:20.774 And I said, how is that a thing? 635 00:35:21.460 --> 00:35:23.260 How are you so naturally curious? 636 00:35:23.903 --> 00:35:25.580 Is it your personality or have you worked on it? 637 00:35:26.081 --> 00:35:28.400 And he said one of the things that he and his wife started doing a few years ago 638 00:35:28.460 --> 00:35:30.840 that's been a real help were these indie experiments. 639 00:35:31.040 --> 00:35:31.740 And I said, what's that? 640 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:34.020 He said, well, it's basically a term that he coined. 641 00:35:34.101 --> 00:35:35.900 So I'd never do it. 642 00:35:36.082 --> 00:35:36.900 So Indy stands for that. 643 00:35:36.940 --> 00:35:37.620 He said, it's an acronym. 644 00:35:38.102 --> 00:35:40.300 It's choosing something to do regularly that you'd never do. 645 00:35:40.540 --> 00:35:42.100 So I said, every Saturday we'd open the paper. 646 00:35:42.842 --> 00:35:45.160 We'd look at what was happening in Sydney that weekend, what was going on. 647 00:35:45.722 --> 00:35:49.000 And we think of all the things happening in Sydney this weekend, what's the least likely 648 00:35:49.101 --> 00:35:50.600 thing here that we'd ever go to? 649 00:35:50.741 --> 00:35:51.658 And then we just turn up. 650 00:35:52.300 --> 00:35:56.320 And he said, we went to a puppetry, the penis one night, we went to a wrestling match. 651 00:35:56.901 --> 00:36:02.960 Like, yeah, these are very serious, high caliber, high profile people, just being students, 652 00:36:03.242 --> 00:36:06.100 just wandering into life with that sense of what can we discover. 653 00:36:06.580 --> 00:36:09.380 So what have I probably got 70, 75 of these indie experiments. 654 00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:12.100 And some of them are super simple, like drinking bubble tea. 655 00:36:12.381 --> 00:36:13.800 I'd never, have you tried bubble tea? 656 00:36:13.941 --> 00:36:14.197 I have. 657 00:36:14.807 --> 00:36:15.360 I never had. 658 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:18.840 I'd walk past and I'm like, what is the, do you eat the little things on the bottom? 659 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:20.780 Do they, are they just there for decoration? 660 00:36:20.980 --> 00:36:25.300 So things like that, like I just, you just small moments like that week before last, 661 00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:29.080 just at the airport, rather than walking the normal way that I would go to the gate, 662 00:36:29.843 --> 00:36:30.519 I walked the other way. 663 00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:32.240 I'm like, I just discovered all these stores. 664 00:36:32.240 --> 00:36:33.680 I didn't know at the domestic terminal. 665 00:36:34.662 --> 00:36:42.260 And it's only little things, but literally what it does is it trains your brain to see new and novel things or uncertainty, not as a threat, but as an invitation. 666 00:36:42.740 --> 00:36:43.359 It becomes fun. 667 00:36:43.580 --> 00:36:46.900 I think my ultimate indie frontier would be walking slowly through an airport. 668 00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:47.420 Walking slowly? 669 00:36:47.482 --> 00:36:48.179 I would never do that. 670 00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:49.338 You're like one of the racers. 671 00:36:49.905 --> 00:36:50.740 You're on the way somewhere. 672 00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.680 So what have you noticed about your brain? 673 00:36:54.182 --> 00:36:57.220 What has shifted for you, 70 plus indie experiments later? 674 00:36:57.441 --> 00:36:58.080 Are things changing? 675 00:36:58.281 --> 00:36:58.860 Yes, definitely. 676 00:36:58.961 --> 00:37:02.600 So I reckon I would have noticed about probably three months in, 677 00:37:02.680 --> 00:37:06.300 I could feel that sense of instead of the indie moment where I'm like, 678 00:37:06.380 --> 00:37:07.360 okay, this is what I'm going to do. 679 00:37:07.520 --> 00:37:09.380 I'm just going to grin and bear it. 680 00:37:09.601 --> 00:37:10.600 Okay, I'm going to force myself. 681 00:37:10.881 --> 00:37:13.940 Not that it was grueling at all, but it was just a little bit uncomfortable. 682 00:37:14.120 --> 00:37:16.300 It's like wearing an uncomfortable piece of clothing that was new. 683 00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:19.080 It was unfamiliar to the point where it actually became exciting, 684 00:37:19.261 --> 00:37:19.819 became fun. 685 00:37:20.281 --> 00:37:24.340 And that's the benefit is you do start to really shift your sense of what 686 00:37:24.401 --> 00:37:25.920 they call the tolerance of uncertainty. 687 00:37:26.040 --> 00:37:27.299 Your tolerance level goes up. 688 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:31.120 And so I have noticed over the last little while, 689 00:37:31.140 --> 00:37:32.299 even the last couple of weeks, 690 00:37:32.562 --> 00:37:34.220 it's getting harder and harder to identify 691 00:37:34.261 --> 00:37:35.260 an indie experiment to do 692 00:37:35.361 --> 00:37:37.340 because the list of things I'd never do 693 00:37:37.543 --> 00:37:38.500 is actually getting shorter, 694 00:37:39.101 --> 00:37:40.260 which is sort of the point. 695 00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:42.239 There are only three rules that I had 696 00:37:42.402 --> 00:37:43.480 when choosing indie experiments. 697 00:37:43.560 --> 00:37:46.160 I had to be something that wasn't harmful or hurtful, 698 00:37:46.580 --> 00:37:47.759 couldn't violate my values, 699 00:37:48.141 --> 00:37:49.540 and it had to be temporary. 700 00:37:49.720 --> 00:37:50.920 So no tattoos, for instance. 701 00:37:51.420 --> 00:37:52.520 Like, but if it was any of those, 702 00:37:52.681 --> 00:37:54.179 anything else was like, bring it on. 703 00:37:55.123 --> 00:37:57.180 And so I have just found over the last little while, 704 00:37:57.180 --> 00:37:59.940 it's getting harder because that list of things I would never do is getting shorter because I'm 705 00:38:00.161 --> 00:38:05.440 just much more open looking like what what's what's new what how can I learn it just changes 706 00:38:05.520 --> 00:38:10.460 your posture toward the world around you and apart from just being a fun and adventurous way to live 707 00:38:10.500 --> 00:38:15.000 what's interesting about it the reason it matters is because when you've micro-dosed novelty 708 00:38:15.541 --> 00:38:22.080 uncertainty in small amounts when the proper stuff shows up like a restructure at work or 709 00:38:22.180 --> 00:38:27.840 the threat of ai like making your profession irrelevant or i can i mean even the call from 710 00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:32.080 the doctor with bad news like when proper uncertainty shows up instead of freaking out 711 00:38:32.100 --> 00:38:37.040 or freezing it's almost like you've you've built this muscle this this cognitive muscle to be able 712 00:38:37.040 --> 00:38:41.940 to go okay i know what to do because i've been in uncertain environments and i can stay calm 713 00:38:42.723 --> 00:38:47.620 i can be clear i can be confident and i can just and the key word's creative because when we're 714 00:38:47.660 --> 00:38:52.540 in survival freakout mode our brains cannot be creative and that's often the thing we need most 715 00:38:53.081 --> 00:38:58.700 in those moments when uncertainty shows up this whole podcast has been about change and how we 716 00:38:58.740 --> 00:39:05.140 deal with change and how we lead change and we can be hopeful about the change that ai is going to 717 00:39:05.200 --> 00:39:10.840 bring to the economy but we also know it's going to bring some profoundly uncomfortable change at 718 00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:16.900 best and there are going to be people in what we might call the trades economy who will be maybe 719 00:39:17.241 --> 00:39:17.965 less affected. 720 00:39:18.005 --> 00:39:21.440 There'll be people in the care economy, but there are going to be people in 721 00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:24.760 the knowledge economy, what you referred to as sort of the white collar economy that 722 00:39:25.422 --> 00:39:26.244 are going to do it tough. 723 00:39:26.826 --> 00:39:31.180 And potentially my thesis is we are less going to be building 724 00:39:31.703 --> 00:39:33.893 what used to look like conventional careers. 725 00:39:33.933 --> 00:39:35.240 And we're more going to be building 726 00:39:35.802 --> 00:39:41.240 these personal knowledge sets and personal brands and personal reputations that we carry with us 727 00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:41.884 into the future. 728 00:39:41.904 --> 00:39:44.220 And we don't quite know what that future is going to hold, but we've got to 729 00:39:44.300 --> 00:39:47.089 figure out what value we take into that future. 730 00:39:47.731 --> 00:39:50.320 How does the story we tell ourselves about what 731 00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:51.605 a career looks like? 732 00:39:52.389 --> 00:39:53.734 How does that story need to change? 733 00:39:54.176 --> 00:39:55.080 So I think there's a couple of things 734 00:39:55.180 --> 00:39:55.623 involved there. 735 00:39:55.703 --> 00:39:59.280 Firstly, and it's not new, this idea that having a career for life is definitely 736 00:39:59.461 --> 00:40:02.254 something that we will see almost disappear entirely. 737 00:40:02.334 --> 00:40:03.680 I mean, our kids and grandkids will 738 00:40:03.700 --> 00:40:05.127 talk about long service leave. 739 00:40:05.147 --> 00:40:06.876 They'll be like, what the hell was that? 740 00:40:06.976 --> 00:40:07.680 Long service leave? 741 00:40:08.061 --> 00:40:09.326 Is that after the first year? 742 00:40:10.210 --> 00:40:10.511 That's right. 743 00:40:10.531 --> 00:40:12.800 You've stayed for two seasons, winter and spring. 744 00:40:13.202 --> 00:40:17.080 um so like but it's certainly that will disappear but that's not new we've seen that be happening 745 00:40:17.160 --> 00:40:20.940 for you know two generations now started with gen y on millennials and now certainly gen z 746 00:40:21.723 --> 00:40:25.960 to me the bigger theme is if we go to a point where and there was an interview i watched with 747 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:31.560 jamie diamond last week i'm jp morgan um ceo he talked about within 20 years it's like it's every 748 00:40:31.640 --> 00:40:36.580 likelihood people are working three and a half days a week um so you know then we fly past the 749 00:40:36.640 --> 00:40:41.060 four-day work right three and a half days a week um we'll have probably a lot more ai doing some 750 00:40:41.080 --> 00:40:46.640 the things that are the grunt work things we need to do now if we do see a hollowing out of that 751 00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:52.440 sort of that white collar professional class there is talk about do we think about careers very 752 00:40:52.520 --> 00:40:58.220 differently is it necessarily about universal basic income do we need to have other support 753 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:02.260 networks involved for people who you know wide scale or let go let's say that's the worst case 754 00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:06.320 scenario and even if there's just a period of time a lag time where we've got to re-skill 755 00:41:06.822 --> 00:41:10.780 the population to be able to use some of the technology to stay relevant in that lag time 756 00:41:10.820 --> 00:41:11.463 how do we do that? 757 00:41:11.604 --> 00:41:15.400 And my concern with all the conversations about universal basic income, 758 00:41:15.680 --> 00:41:18.840 and it goes back to something we've talked about before, is that you can make sure people have got 759 00:41:19.201 --> 00:41:23.435 the money to live and be somewhat comfortable and self-sufficient. 760 00:41:24.217 --> 00:41:25.080 But what else does work 761 00:41:25.160 --> 00:41:26.184 give you apart from money? 762 00:41:26.225 --> 00:41:30.060 It's so much about community, purpose, and the big one's dignity, 763 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:32.552 that idea that I'm producing something and contributing here. 764 00:41:33.175 --> 00:41:34.040 And so to me, the bigger 765 00:41:34.161 --> 00:41:37.720 concern over the next five to 10 years, especially when you overlay that with some of the stuff we're 766 00:41:37.720 --> 00:41:43.440 already seeing with Gen Z, which is that level of isolation, even the growing level of, and this is 767 00:41:43.500 --> 00:41:48.180 a strong word, but I think it's an important word, hopelessness, or sometimes helplessness you see 768 00:41:48.260 --> 00:41:49.546 in Gen Z. 769 00:41:49.586 --> 00:41:51.556 No matter what I do, I'm never going to be able to buy a house. 770 00:41:52.078 --> 00:41:52.500 I'm never going to be 771 00:41:52.500 --> 00:41:54.609 able to have the career or the life my parents had. 772 00:41:55.091 --> 00:41:57.140 When you see that en masse in a generation 773 00:41:57.200 --> 00:42:00.030 of young people, that is profoundly worrying for society. 774 00:42:00.772 --> 00:42:03.040 Hope is so vital for the human soul. 775 00:42:03.241 --> 00:42:06.920 And so to me, it's about you might be able to have economic stopgaps. 776 00:42:07.841 --> 00:42:12.080 What else though is removed when potentially AI disrupts people's sense of career? 777 00:42:12.120 --> 00:42:13.340 Because it's not just about the money. 778 00:42:13.460 --> 00:42:17.980 It's about all the other things around that that are harder to recreate. 779 00:42:19.601 --> 00:42:26.180 So you've taken us to a huge place, a place of hope and purpose and possibility and dignity 780 00:42:26.401 --> 00:42:29.480 and all the things that are potentially going to threaten that. 781 00:42:29.560 --> 00:42:36.900 And we haven't even talked about the planetary and environmental threats to that or the geopolitical instability and the threats to that. 782 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:38.600 There's a lot to worry about right now. 783 00:42:39.723 --> 00:42:42.560 So let's finish by coming back to things that we can do. 784 00:42:42.881 --> 00:42:51.880 And often in the face of challenging situations, whether it's a politician trying to advocate for tax reform or for a universal basic income, 785 00:42:52.080 --> 00:42:59.140 or whether it's a activist trying to campaign for positive measures to deal with climate change, 786 00:42:59.421 --> 00:43:04.780 Or whether it's a business leader saying the way that our business has been working is not going to keep working forever. 787 00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:05.979 We need to make change. 788 00:43:06.901 --> 00:43:14.320 It strikes me that they're asking people in that moment, all of those leaders are asking people to trade one type of loss for another. 789 00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:14.880 Yeah. 790 00:43:15.080 --> 00:43:17.679 They're saying at the moment loss is happening to us. 791 00:43:18.166 --> 00:43:18.320 Yeah. 792 00:43:18.861 --> 00:43:23.140 We are losing the ability to, we're losing control in some way. 793 00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:24.740 We are losing control of our future. 794 00:43:25.062 --> 00:43:26.119 But this is happening to us. 795 00:43:26.682 --> 00:43:32.240 And in order to mitigate that loss, I, as a leader, am asking you to choose to come with me on this. 796 00:43:32.682 --> 00:43:36.500 And now that second loss is a loss that I'm asking you to choose. 797 00:43:37.201 --> 00:43:43.320 And even if I'm raising money for a new company, I'm asking that investor to lose something, which is hand over a check. 798 00:43:43.420 --> 00:43:44.260 Well, you've lost that money. 799 00:43:44.380 --> 00:43:45.680 You might in the future get it back. 800 00:43:45.700 --> 00:43:56.580 But right now, how do we get people to value correctly that relationship between loss that's happening to them and a loss or a sacrifice? 801 00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:59.038 Perhaps that's a better word because all strategy involves sacrifice. 802 00:44:00.261 --> 00:44:06.020 Let's finish by talking about how we get people to lean in and go, yes, I understand that. 803 00:44:06.341 --> 00:44:08.220 I understand that there is sacrifice involved. 804 00:44:08.340 --> 00:44:09.179 There is pain involved. 805 00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:11.740 There is unfamiliarity involved or whatever it is. 806 00:44:12.121 --> 00:44:14.780 But nonetheless, I choose to go with you. 807 00:44:14.780 --> 00:44:15.020 Yep. 808 00:44:15.441 --> 00:44:16.023 I choose that. 809 00:44:16.405 --> 00:44:20.800 I think a couple of things that always help, absolute honesty, call out the lost, 810 00:44:21.120 --> 00:44:22.967 acknowledge that this is going to be difficult. 811 00:44:23.309 --> 00:44:24.112 And I understand it. 812 00:44:24.694 --> 00:44:26.160 Even just having people feel 813 00:44:26.240 --> 00:44:30.820 like someone understands the emotion I'm feeling and Chris Voss's work around how do you deal with 814 00:44:30.940 --> 00:44:35.720 high tense situations negotiation wise, if you call out the emotion of the person's feeling, 815 00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:38.514 it's somewhat dissipates the power of that emotion. 816 00:44:38.534 --> 00:44:39.640 So calling it out and acknowledging 817 00:44:39.720 --> 00:44:42.134 that that's a reality, I think is a really important starting point. 818 00:44:42.576 --> 00:44:43.320 There is anxiety, 819 00:44:43.420 --> 00:44:44.204 there is fear. 820 00:44:44.866 --> 00:44:46.794 Let's not paper over that or diminish it. 821 00:44:46.914 --> 00:44:48.280 Let's speak to that and be very 822 00:44:48.340 --> 00:44:48.642 honest. 823 00:44:49.164 --> 00:44:51.716 Then of course, the question is, which emotions will you appeal to? 824 00:44:52.037 --> 00:44:52.600 And there are some 825 00:44:52.700 --> 00:44:55.371 sugar hit emotions that will get you instant reaction. 826 00:44:56.054 --> 00:44:57.500 And there are emotions like fear, 827 00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:01.533 there are emotions like outrage, there are emotions like disgust. 828 00:45:02.316 --> 00:45:03.099 And those will get an 829 00:45:03.340 --> 00:45:04.204 instant reaction. 830 00:45:04.425 --> 00:45:07.097 I mean, we've seen political leaders appeal to them beautifully. 831 00:45:07.318 --> 00:45:07.760 They play 832 00:45:08.342 --> 00:45:09.607 the population like a fiddle. 833 00:45:09.647 --> 00:45:11.474 They appeal to all those base emotions. 834 00:45:11.896 --> 00:45:12.940 Now they'll get you a short 835 00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:16.171 term impact, typically it's a narrowing response. 836 00:45:16.211 --> 00:45:18.820 So we're getting closer and closer in on protection 837 00:45:19.041 --> 00:45:20.424 and how do we keep what we've got. 838 00:45:21.287 --> 00:45:26.160 The other emotions like hope and joy, patriotism, pride, 839 00:45:26.901 --> 00:45:31.060 these are emotions that are hard, they'll give you a longer term impact, but they don't give 840 00:45:31.060 --> 00:45:32.987 you the sugar hit up front. 841 00:45:33.007 --> 00:45:36.379 So you can deal with the fear and the disgust and some of those sort 842 00:45:36.560 --> 00:45:39.817 of darker emotions, they can get an instant response, but their half-life is quick. 843 00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:40.320 And 844 00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:43.473 the response, the ash of those emotions afterwards is often quite toxic. 845 00:45:44.135 --> 00:45:45.260 It takes a strong leader to 846 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:49.254 realize how do we appeal to hope and to joy and to patriotism? 847 00:45:49.716 --> 00:45:50.940 That's where we need to be playing. 848 00:45:51.020 --> 00:45:56.840 And I think to be really sort of selfish for me, the way I process what you've just said 849 00:45:57.221 --> 00:46:01.231 is in the short term, slogans can have an impact. 850 00:46:01.752 --> 00:46:04.980 But to have that long term effect on people, 851 00:46:05.681 --> 00:46:07.368 we need to tell them stories. 852 00:46:07.428 --> 00:46:10.060 And we need to tell stories that are rich and true and real 853 00:46:10.201 --> 00:46:12.800 and full of hope and purpose and humility and possibility. 854 00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:17.040 And maybe just then they will go with us on the difficult, 855 00:46:17.260 --> 00:46:19.460 uncomfortable change that needs to be made. 856 00:46:19.661 --> 00:46:19.999 Yeah, I love it. 857 00:46:20.060 --> 00:46:22.016 I thought you'd make that connection because I think it's so true. 858 00:46:23.262 --> 00:46:24.300 Michael McQueen, thank you so much. 859 00:46:24.520 --> 00:46:24.660 It's a pleasure. 860 00:46:24.780 --> 00:46:25.160 Thank you. 861 00:46:28.180 --> 00:46:30.420 StoryWork was brought to you in partnership with Slingshot. 862 00:46:31.042 --> 00:46:33.900 As you've heard in today's episode, stories really matter. 863 00:46:34.081 --> 00:46:37.260 And there is no story more important than the one you tell your customers. 864 00:46:37.923 --> 00:46:42.100 but finding the right time place channel and medium through which to tell that story 865 00:46:42.361 --> 00:46:47.420 is critical and that's where my great friends at slingshot come in slingshot pride themselves on 866 00:46:47.460 --> 00:46:52.840 developing creative media strategies to propel their clients further faster you can find out 867 00:46:52.860 --> 00:46:56.960 more about the brilliant work that slingshot does helping brands find their audiences tell 868 00:46:57.040 --> 00:47:02.380 their stories and achieve their objectives at slingshot.com.au and talking about finding out 869 00:47:02.420 --> 00:47:02.661 more. 870 00:47:02.982 --> 00:47:07.280 You can find out more about this and every episode of StoryWork, including all the show notes 871 00:47:07.622 --> 00:47:11.260 and all of my key learnings from every conversation over on Substack.