WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.071 --> 00:00:06.153 Like if you think about, I don't know, like emotional issues that you had when you were young, it's not that they're gone. 2 00:00:06.293 --> 00:00:10.294 You still feel them down there, but it's just very mild. 3 00:00:10.354 --> 00:00:17.036 It's like the volume knob's been turned way down and there's like all this new emotional machinery that's been built on top of it. 4 00:00:17.276 --> 00:00:22.382 I'm kind of in the middle of one of these right now, I guess, if we can dive into that, because that's where I'm at. 5 00:00:22.402 --> 00:00:24.445 I'm like, well, where do I replace? 6 00:00:24.545 --> 00:00:28.310 I have this adaptation I've identified, and I don't know what comes next. 7 00:00:28.850 --> 00:00:29.271 A little bit. 8 00:00:29.391 --> 00:00:29.671 Okay. 9 00:00:29.992 --> 00:00:32.354 This is all kind of weird, too, and I'm a little disoriented around it. 10 00:00:32.394 --> 00:00:34.958 So let me know if I'm just going off the rails here. 11 00:00:34.978 --> 00:00:35.358 Okay. 12 00:00:35.558 --> 00:00:35.959 A little bit. 13 00:00:37.020 --> 00:00:39.282 We'll call this segment Off the Rails with Drew Bernie. 14 00:00:39.302 --> 00:00:40.724 That's, okay. 15 00:00:41.344 --> 00:00:42.646 Here we go, okay? 16 00:00:43.867 --> 00:00:47.330 I've talked pretty openly about my avoidance. 17 00:00:47.370 --> 00:00:48.952 Like, I'm an avoidant attachment. 18 00:00:48.972 --> 00:00:49.893 This is why I brought it up earlier. 19 00:00:49.913 --> 00:00:51.434 I was like, emotional level, this is our advantage. 20 00:00:51.454 --> 00:00:53.316 All your female fans in the comments have noticed. 21 00:00:53.436 --> 00:00:54.137 Yeah, okay. 22 00:00:56.242 --> 00:01:00.305 I was emotionally avoidant for a long time. 23 00:01:00.386 --> 00:01:02.007 I even knew about it early on. 24 00:01:02.027 --> 00:01:03.108 I mean, I studied psychology. 25 00:01:03.168 --> 00:01:06.531 I even studied a little bit of attachment science, like early on in my early 20s. 26 00:01:06.771 --> 00:01:07.491 So I knew about it. 27 00:01:07.511 --> 00:01:08.652 So there's that insight problem. 28 00:01:08.692 --> 00:01:10.854 I was like, oh, I know about this, so it's okay. 29 00:01:11.174 --> 00:01:17.019 But the way I was behaving was still consistent with being avoidant, and it was causing a lot of problems in my life, okay? 30 00:01:17.379 --> 00:01:25.326 And it really wasn't until just a few years ago, probably five-ish years ago, that I really got serious about like, okay, I really need to do something about this. 31 00:01:25.606 --> 00:01:36.794 And so what I did is I started with kind of the habit, the behavioral part of it, which was when I had like a partner would come to me and they have a bid for attention or a bid for affection of some sort. 32 00:01:37.034 --> 00:01:39.636 Usually what I would do is kind of shut down and be like, well, you're getting too close. 33 00:01:40.116 --> 00:01:41.817 That's not like that's scary. 34 00:01:41.857 --> 00:01:42.278 Don't do that. 35 00:01:42.318 --> 00:01:42.498 Right. 36 00:01:42.998 --> 00:01:44.219 What I learned to do is kind of flip that on. 37 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:45.820 I says, like, OK, wait, catch myself. 38 00:01:46.381 --> 00:01:47.081 Like we talked about. 39 00:01:47.401 --> 00:01:49.623 I caught that adaptation in the moment. 40 00:01:49.963 --> 00:01:51.985 And I could then respond to them. 41 00:01:52.325 --> 00:01:52.606 Okay. 42 00:01:53.106 --> 00:01:56.289 I could not be, not behave in an avoidant way. 43 00:01:57.150 --> 00:02:03.576 I was prepared to come into this podcast and tell you about how, oh, that was my transformation and I have no longer avoidant. 44 00:02:04.197 --> 00:02:06.499 And then it really hit me when we were preparing for this. 45 00:02:06.559 --> 00:02:11.264 I'm like, oh, I'm actually no more secure in my attachment than I was before. 46 00:02:11.384 --> 00:02:12.765 I have just addressed the problem. 47 00:02:13.726 --> 00:02:36.665 the the habit the behavior associated with the avoidance i haven't addressed the rest of it it's kind of bled into the emotional stuff one thing i noticed like with a partner that i had who was anxious she was also she had a psychology background so we could talk about this in a nerdy disconnected way right and so okay we said all right we're gonna work on this okay and we did and i was like what i what i realized was oh these bids for attention and affection they're 48 00:02:36.725 --> 00:02:37.925 They're really not that bad. 49 00:02:38.025 --> 00:02:40.306 You just, you give them a little bit and they're fine. 50 00:02:40.326 --> 00:02:43.287 And then you can return back to your homeostasis, right? 51 00:02:43.447 --> 00:02:46.628 That's kind of bleeding into the emotional adaptation layer a little bit. 52 00:02:46.748 --> 00:02:49.889 I can handle those emotions, but that's just like in the receiving of it. 53 00:02:49.969 --> 00:02:54.190 I still don't express my needs very well because that's scary to me. 54 00:02:54.450 --> 00:02:55.431 And I, so I avoid them. 55 00:02:55.451 --> 00:02:56.491 That's the avoidant part of it. 56 00:02:57.211 --> 00:02:59.432 I have not addressed the underlying beliefs around this. 57 00:02:59.452 --> 00:03:01.953 I have not addressed the underlying narratives around this at all. 58 00:03:02.493 --> 00:03:06.134 I'm no more secure than I was before, but I felt like I was for a long time. 59 00:03:06.394 --> 00:03:07.815 But I've had this like recent realization. 60 00:03:07.835 --> 00:03:12.436 So I'm in this space right now around what do I replace those adaptations with? 61 00:03:12.977 --> 00:03:15.318 And I'm not really even sure because I just identified it. 62 00:03:15.938 --> 00:03:20.920 Like the belief slash narrative that I have, I think that's underlying all of this is just a fear of abandonment. 63 00:03:21.740 --> 00:03:22.560 That's what it is. 64 00:03:22.861 --> 00:03:24.201 I don't want to be abandoned. 65 00:03:24.221 --> 00:03:25.482 And so I close myself off. 66 00:03:25.622 --> 00:03:26.822 I don't even get involved in that way. 67 00:03:26.902 --> 00:03:27.622 You can't leave me. 68 00:03:27.802 --> 00:03:28.783 Yeah. 69 00:03:28.843 --> 00:03:29.743 I will keep you at a distance. 70 00:03:29.763 --> 00:03:30.984 And so you cannot leave me. 71 00:03:31.304 --> 00:03:33.745 Now I'm sitting here like, okay, well, I've replaced the behavior. 72 00:03:35.094 --> 00:03:37.836 But that behavior was a coping mechanism for me. 73 00:03:38.356 --> 00:03:41.138 And so now I'm sitting in this space where it's like, it feels unsafe. 74 00:03:42.158 --> 00:03:43.279 I'm almost feeling anxious. 75 00:03:43.299 --> 00:03:46.961 I think I maybe even told you a few times, like, I think I'm actually more disorganized than I was. 76 00:03:46.981 --> 00:03:50.243 But I think what that really is, is I'm just feeling the anxiety that was already there. 77 00:03:50.624 --> 00:03:51.684 There's always been there. 78 00:03:51.925 --> 00:03:52.365 Probably. 79 00:03:52.465 --> 00:03:53.946 But I was avoiding it before. 80 00:03:54.046 --> 00:03:55.347 And now I don't avoid it anymore. 81 00:03:55.387 --> 00:03:57.768 And now it's like, I don't know what's going on. 82 00:03:57.848 --> 00:03:58.929 But you don't know what to do with it. 83 00:03:59.029 --> 00:03:59.889 I don't know what to do with it. 84 00:03:59.909 --> 00:04:00.190 And like... 85 00:04:00.910 --> 00:04:04.871 What I want to do, you know, I talked about the contamination versus redemptive arcs. 86 00:04:05.531 --> 00:04:07.552 That's recently, that's what I've been thinking. 87 00:04:07.572 --> 00:04:08.632 I was like, okay, I need to return this. 88 00:04:08.752 --> 00:04:11.873 I need to turn this into a redemptive arc because right now it's a contamination one. 89 00:04:11.893 --> 00:04:13.273 It's like people leave. 90 00:04:13.453 --> 00:04:14.413 People aren't to be trusted. 91 00:04:14.613 --> 00:04:15.334 I'm a very independent. 92 00:04:15.374 --> 00:04:16.514 That's why I'm an independent person. 93 00:04:16.794 --> 00:04:19.515 I was like, I can take care of myself because you can't rely on other people. 94 00:04:19.735 --> 00:04:20.575 And so... 95 00:04:21.655 --> 00:04:22.655 what do I replace that with? 96 00:04:22.995 --> 00:04:27.057 What do I, you know, do I, do I try to make a redemptive arc where it's like, no, no, no. 97 00:04:27.737 --> 00:04:28.577 Those things happen to me. 98 00:04:28.697 --> 00:04:31.378 Like I did with the being poor and all that, those things happen to me. 99 00:04:31.518 --> 00:04:33.339 I survived them and I'll survive them again. 100 00:04:33.359 --> 00:04:35.499 I can't just tell myself that obviously. 101 00:04:35.679 --> 00:04:35.899 Right. 102 00:04:36.460 --> 00:04:37.260 And have it be true. 103 00:04:37.900 --> 00:04:38.860 So I don't know. 104 00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:39.701 That's where I'm at right now. 105 00:04:39.721 --> 00:04:42.321 I'm in the middle of one of these right now, which is just ironic. 106 00:04:42.361 --> 00:04:44.102 And yeah, it's tough, man. 107 00:04:44.762 --> 00:04:45.603 I'm going to work through it. 108 00:04:45.643 --> 00:04:46.303 I know I will. 109 00:04:46.423 --> 00:04:50.585 And that's the other thing is that I've decided like, no, I'm going to take this on and not turn away from it. 110 00:04:50.665 --> 00:04:56.248 And I think that's one of the problems that people see that and they're like, no, I'm running right the hell back, which I almost did that with this time around, too. 111 00:04:56.668 --> 00:05:03.252 And it's like I would give yourself more credit as well, because like you changed the behavior, but you didn't actually change. 112 00:05:03.432 --> 00:05:04.593 change the adaptation, right? 113 00:05:04.613 --> 00:05:07.795 Like we're going to get to this, but you know, behavior is the entry point. 114 00:05:07.895 --> 00:05:14.741 It is that change in behavior that has even opened you up to be able to talk about this and think about this in the first place because it was prior to that behavior. 115 00:05:14.801 --> 00:05:20.505 You weren't even, this was not even a discussion that in and of itself is a certain amount of progress. 116 00:05:20.545 --> 00:05:21.225 But I mean, this is 117 00:05:22.232 --> 00:05:27.516 This is the difficult part with adaptations in general, especially the deep seated ones and the emotional ones. 118 00:05:27.556 --> 00:05:31.478 Like they're not changed in months. 119 00:05:31.498 --> 00:05:33.560 They're not changed even in years. 120 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:35.721 Like some deeper seated ones like this. 121 00:05:35.761 --> 00:05:41.786 I mean, it is years and years and years and years and years to like actually get to the other side. 122 00:05:41.806 --> 00:05:43.207 Yeah, it's been it's been weird. 123 00:05:44.367 --> 00:05:44.948 lately. 124 00:05:45.228 --> 00:05:49.150 And I think I've kind of felt it, but not like building up a little bit. 125 00:05:49.270 --> 00:05:52.592 And then this is all just kind of, you know, it's, it's coming out now. 126 00:05:52.612 --> 00:05:54.113 And I'm like, Oh shit. 127 00:05:54.994 --> 00:05:56.475 It was like a realization a little bit. 128 00:05:56.515 --> 00:05:56.795 Yeah. 129 00:05:56.975 --> 00:06:00.097 I just don't know like, Oh, what's the new story I need to build around this? 130 00:06:00.117 --> 00:06:03.339 What are the new beliefs and emotional patterns I want to have? 131 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:05.760 And, uh, can I be intentional about that even? 132 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:07.581 I was pretty avoidant when I was younger. 133 00:06:07.681 --> 00:06:09.823 And I, I remember, I mean, even up until, uh, 134 00:06:10.818 --> 00:06:16.962 the second year I was with my wife, like I had this belief, this operating assumption that like, I was never going to get married. 135 00:06:17.863 --> 00:06:19.224 Every relationship was temporary. 136 00:06:20.585 --> 00:06:25.108 And be ready to leave at any moment when it's necessary, right? 137 00:06:25.268 --> 00:06:30.312 And it just seemed like, and my ex-girlfriends, like they got it way worse than my wife did. 138 00:06:30.332 --> 00:06:38.618 By the time I got to my wife, I kind of realized I'm like, no, I actually like, I like having a girlfriend and I should probably not be a fucking deadbeat, you know, when I'm with them. 139 00:06:39.219 --> 00:06:40.380 So that was progress. 140 00:06:40.781 --> 00:06:53.658 But then I think that progress like opened me up to when I was with her to at least stick around long enough that it, it, it started challenging some of those other underlying beliefs. 141 00:06:53.698 --> 00:06:53.919 Right. 142 00:06:54.039 --> 00:06:54.219 Okay. 143 00:06:54.239 --> 00:06:56.142 Like, okay, well maybe, yeah, maybe, uh, 144 00:06:57.471 --> 00:07:00.112 Maybe I'm, I am capable of this. 145 00:07:00.192 --> 00:07:02.772 Maybe I like, maybe this is okay. 146 00:07:03.012 --> 00:07:08.093 But I would say those, those beliefs fell away slowly over the course of years with her. 147 00:07:08.914 --> 00:07:14.295 The other thing that fell away too, I had a bad tendency in my earlier relationships of just sabotaging things. 148 00:07:14.515 --> 00:07:18.016 I was definitely that guy who would like start a fight over like something very stupid. 149 00:07:18.396 --> 00:07:24.617 And I did it unconsciously, but I think what it was is it was kind of a triggered avoidant reaction, right? 150 00:07:24.637 --> 00:07:25.818 I totally do this too. 151 00:07:25.838 --> 00:07:25.978 Yeah. 152 00:07:28.018 --> 00:07:45.143 point something out that just you could just let go right or yeah and the worst thing is is that it tended to happen in like the most intimate moments and um and i remember actually so fernanda it was one of her birthdays i planned a whole day for her it was an amazing day we were dating we had two or three years 153 00:07:47.604 --> 00:07:59.006 amazing day together and she was so happy and we went to this like nice sushi dinner and i don't remember what but i just started being such a fucking yeah okay 154 00:07:59.887 --> 00:08:01.007 For no reason. 155 00:08:01.027 --> 00:08:01.787 Yeah, I've done this. 156 00:08:01.827 --> 00:08:02.888 For no reason. 157 00:08:02.908 --> 00:08:09.669 And it's, you know, it took me years to realize that, like, that was an adaptation that was stuck. 158 00:08:10.029 --> 00:08:16.491 I think you said something there, though, that rang true with me now anyway, is that you decided that you were going to stick with it this time. 159 00:08:16.531 --> 00:08:18.071 You decided you were going to actually look at this. 160 00:08:18.632 --> 00:08:21.032 And if there's anything I'm good at, it's denial. 161 00:08:21.392 --> 00:08:26.774 So that's what I've learned, too, is that, like, even me saying that, like, oh, I'm afraid of abandonment. 162 00:08:26.834 --> 00:08:27.014 Yeah. 163 00:08:27.134 --> 00:08:28.214 That, to me, I would, like... 164 00:08:28.794 --> 00:08:37.802 I, I, that makes me just curl up inside and like, well, I don't like that at all, but because it just seems so weak and it seems so, I don't know, immature. 165 00:08:37.942 --> 00:08:39.884 But the fact that it makes you want to puke. 166 00:08:39.944 --> 00:08:40.264 I know. 167 00:08:40.684 --> 00:08:42.466 And that's what I'm saying is now I have to turn to it. 168 00:08:42.526 --> 00:08:43.567 It probably means it's true. 169 00:08:43.687 --> 00:08:43.947 I know. 170 00:08:43.967 --> 00:08:50.373 And it is motivating a lot of this, um, which unfortunately that's the way it usually works. 171 00:08:50.553 --> 00:08:50.853 I don't know. 172 00:08:50.873 --> 00:08:51.413 That's where I'm at. 173 00:08:51.434 --> 00:08:52.494 That does help though. 174 00:08:52.634 --> 00:08:56.116 And like I said, I am just playing around with the stories now too. 175 00:08:56.716 --> 00:08:58.818 Meditations has actually helped me a little bit with this. 176 00:08:59.938 --> 00:09:02.079 Probably need to do some more therapy around it. 177 00:09:03.060 --> 00:09:03.440 But yeah. 178 00:09:03.940 --> 00:09:11.725 Probably the most useful thing for me is I just, and I was kind of in a similar place when I met Fernanda that like, I was aware I had this. 179 00:09:12.885 --> 00:09:17.028 I knew I still had it, but I was also like, I kind of don't want to have this. 180 00:09:18.129 --> 00:09:26.321 and I remember with her, I just made an agreement with myself, because, like, with my ex before her, I just, like, I was such a shitty boyfriend. 181 00:09:26.521 --> 00:09:31.669 And so with her, I was like, it's okay if it ends, but just make sure it ends for a good reason. 182 00:09:31.809 --> 00:09:32.510 Like, don't... 183 00:09:33.732 --> 00:09:34.573 Don't be a shithead. 184 00:09:34.973 --> 00:09:36.454 Again, and it was behavior, right? 185 00:09:36.574 --> 00:09:40.496 So it was like, I still felt a lot of the things that I used to feel in my old relationships. 186 00:09:40.576 --> 00:09:44.499 I still had a lot of thoughts and beliefs that I had in previous relationships. 187 00:09:44.539 --> 00:09:52.604 I still, there were still times I wanted to break up with her for no reason and go party and sleep with a bunch of girls randomly. 188 00:09:52.624 --> 00:09:59.368 But like, I had an agreement with myself of like, just don't fuck this up for a dumb reason. 189 00:09:59.408 --> 00:10:02.370 Like you can break up with her, but it has to be for a legitimate reason. 190 00:10:02.390 --> 00:10:02.890 Yeah. 191 00:10:03.350 --> 00:10:11.578 And putting that constraint on myself, I guess, just like eventually made me stop being such a wuss. 192 00:10:11.858 --> 00:10:11.998 Yeah. 193 00:10:12.018 --> 00:10:13.760 It's kind of where I'm at with my girlfriend right now. 194 00:10:13.880 --> 00:10:16.883 I think I thought that I was like Mr. 195 00:10:16.923 --> 00:10:17.623 Romantic in this. 196 00:10:17.723 --> 00:10:20.846 I thought I was like, this is the most expressive I have ever been. 197 00:10:21.026 --> 00:10:26.691 And just part of the impetus of this whole thing is we've, we had a big conversation and a bit of an argument about this and. 198 00:10:27.372 --> 00:10:29.313 She was like, you're not that emotionally expressive. 199 00:10:29.333 --> 00:10:31.834 And I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? 200 00:10:32.234 --> 00:10:34.975 Like, I feel like I'm just being always gushing. 201 00:10:35.015 --> 00:10:36.416 Just gushing all the time. 202 00:10:36.576 --> 00:10:39.537 And it's like, oh, that's how uncalibrated I am. 203 00:10:39.697 --> 00:10:42.898 And it comes back to like the relative definitions, right? 204 00:10:42.918 --> 00:10:45.819 So it's like in your head, you're 10 out of 10 expressive. 205 00:10:46.439 --> 00:10:48.180 And in her head, you're like a three out of 10. 206 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:49.241 Sending heart emojis. 207 00:10:49.281 --> 00:10:50.101 Come on, man. 208 00:10:50.861 --> 00:10:51.882 Like, come on. 209 00:10:52.303 --> 00:10:55.005 I'm pouring my heart out into my iPhone right now. 210 00:10:55.806 --> 00:10:57.127 Duh. 211 00:10:57.367 --> 00:10:58.649 What else could a woman want? 212 00:10:58.709 --> 00:10:59.129 Women. 213 00:10:59.169 --> 00:11:00.650 Like, come on. 214 00:11:00.931 --> 00:11:01.451 No, I get it. 215 00:11:02.172 --> 00:11:03.693 Heart emojis aren't enough for them. 216 00:11:04.254 --> 00:11:10.419 Well, I guess this is a perfect segue into our next section, which is about relationship as adaptation machines. 217 00:11:10.800 --> 00:11:15.004 I mean, we talked about in the emotions episode how humans co-regulate each other. 218 00:11:15.364 --> 00:11:21.546 And also our identities, right, how we identify ourselves and our egos are also mutually defined. 219 00:11:21.947 --> 00:11:24.688 None of us define who we are in a vacuum. 220 00:11:25.128 --> 00:11:29.389 We largely define ourselves relative to the people around us. 221 00:11:29.670 --> 00:11:36.392 And it is those social relationships that kind of create the raw material for us to define who we are and how we see ourselves. 222 00:11:37.072 --> 00:11:38.253 So it makes sense that... 223 00:11:39.178 --> 00:11:52.606 one of the most effective ways to alter adaptations is to put yourself in relationships with people who maybe have more functional adaptations than you, who perhaps can spot some maladaptive adaptations in you. 224 00:11:52.766 --> 00:11:55.047 I mean, there's a real healing power to relationships. 225 00:11:55.247 --> 00:11:57.689 Relationships can also be destructive in this sense. 226 00:11:57.709 --> 00:12:07.855 So like, you know, you could almost define a toxic relationship as a relationship that amplifies your unhealthy adaptations or itself becomes an unhealthy adaptation of, 227 00:12:08.515 --> 00:12:33.286 um between you and the world i think you make a good point that this is like where it all plays out is in our relationships and this is where you actually like you can change like we're calling these adaptation machines relationships are adaptation machines we can sit here we can talk like we're just saying we can talk you can get all this insight you can intellectualize all of this but like putting it into practice through relationships is really where these adaptations will will shift around and they're most malleable yeah i think 228 00:12:33.626 --> 00:12:43.249 relationships are so powerful because it is one of the few places that you are able to catch all three of the cognitive, the behavioral, and the emotional simultaneously. 229 00:12:43.389 --> 00:12:49.491 If you and I hang out for a weekend and I do something annoying and you're like, dude, that's annoying. 230 00:12:49.631 --> 00:12:50.311 I'll be like, oh, 231 00:12:50.731 --> 00:12:51.071 Sorry. 232 00:12:51.311 --> 00:12:51.532 Right. 233 00:12:51.812 --> 00:12:57.315 Whereas if I'm like living with my wife for 10 years and she's like, you really need to cut this shit out. 234 00:12:57.375 --> 00:12:58.616 Like this is fucked up. 235 00:12:58.696 --> 00:12:58.916 Right. 236 00:12:58.996 --> 00:13:09.622 It's there's there's an emotional investment in that relationship that is very deep and powerful that when something is disruptive with her, like I'm way more emotionally invested in and actually like. 237 00:13:10.498 --> 00:13:14.725 looking at and addressing, you know, some sort of behavior or assumption or belief. 238 00:13:14.946 --> 00:13:15.927 Yeah, there's stakes. 239 00:13:16.107 --> 00:13:17.169 There's skin in the game. 240 00:13:17.189 --> 00:13:17.430 Yeah. 241 00:13:17.750 --> 00:13:18.892 You know what this reminds me of? 242 00:13:19.032 --> 00:13:22.398 Have you ever seen that documentary about flat earthers called Behind the Curve? 243 00:13:22.498 --> 00:13:23.039 No, I haven't. 244 00:13:23.079 --> 00:13:23.219 No. 245 00:13:23.419 --> 00:13:23.640 It's... 246 00:13:24.599 --> 00:13:25.699 It's so fascinating. 247 00:13:25.819 --> 00:13:27.240 There's a flat earth convention. 248 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:29.200 Yeah, I knew of that, yeah. 249 00:13:29.380 --> 00:13:35.102 That people get on planes and fly across time zones to attend. 250 00:13:36.322 --> 00:13:39.523 So this documentarian started following a bunch of these flat earthers. 251 00:13:39.683 --> 00:13:48.205 And it is so fascinating because what you really notice as the documentary goes on is that these are intensely lonely people. 252 00:13:49.486 --> 00:13:58.596 And it's really like the flat earth belief, very much an adaptation to allow them to get some of their basic needs met. 253 00:13:58.696 --> 00:14:01.299 Like they are probably very neurodivergent. 254 00:14:01.419 --> 00:14:05.063 There are probably some like extreme personality traits going on. 255 00:14:05.410 --> 00:14:06.691 Maybe some trauma for some of them. 256 00:14:06.711 --> 00:14:14.475 A lot of them probably have a lot of embedded trauma and they are just not super functional in the day-to-day world. 257 00:14:15.135 --> 00:14:24.300 But something about this belief system and coming together online around it allows them to feel accepted and admired and appreciated. 258 00:14:25.140 --> 00:14:34.523 special and some degree of status or whatever, but it is, the documentary is extremely well done because it's just the way he shows their stories and how they describe themselves. 259 00:14:34.543 --> 00:14:40.344 Like it is so clear that they, they're, they're just lonely and they just want to feel like they're doing something that matters. 260 00:14:41.164 --> 00:14:43.265 And that's a hell of an adaptation. 261 00:14:43.685 --> 00:14:43.945 Yeah. 262 00:14:44.125 --> 00:14:44.325 Yeah. 263 00:14:45.005 --> 00:14:50.427 So there's a version of working on yourself that is perfectly designed to feel like progress. 264 00:14:51.456 --> 00:14:52.981 but it produces no progress. 265 00:14:53.363 --> 00:14:55.049 And this is why you're still stuck. 266 00:14:55.189 --> 00:14:57.257 It's not because you don't understand yourself. 267 00:14:58.158 --> 00:15:02.981 It's because understanding yourself and changing yourself are two completely different skills. 268 00:15:03.321 --> 00:15:08.103 Interestingly, there's some research around how change actually takes place. 269 00:15:08.343 --> 00:15:11.385 This is very common in the clinical psychology world. 270 00:15:11.445 --> 00:15:14.087 So Prokaska and DiClemente have a model. 271 00:15:14.287 --> 00:15:15.968 It's the five-stage model of change. 272 00:15:15.988 --> 00:15:20.090 So there's pre-contemplation, contemplation, action, maintenance, and relapse. 273 00:15:20.770 --> 00:15:23.752 And pre-contemplation is basically the moment... 274 00:15:24.412 --> 00:15:27.455 before there's conscious awareness of an issue, right? 275 00:15:27.495 --> 00:15:28.956 It's just you're like, something's off. 276 00:15:29.377 --> 00:15:35.283 Something's off, but you don't know what, and you keep doing a thing, and you don't know why, and you're not sure what the problem is. 277 00:15:35.683 --> 00:15:38.926 Contemplation is you think you've identified the problem. 278 00:15:39.306 --> 00:15:42.249 I think I know why do I keep doing this. 279 00:15:42.930 --> 00:15:44.071 This is what I need to change. 280 00:15:44.571 --> 00:15:45.873 Action is when you try to change it. 281 00:15:46.393 --> 00:15:47.694 Maintenance is... 282 00:15:48.587 --> 00:15:56.490 Making sure that that action is sustainable over a long period of time, because as we're going to discover is that change itself is hard. 283 00:15:57.071 --> 00:16:00.092 Maintaining change is exceptionally hard. 284 00:16:00.372 --> 00:16:03.573 Most people are able to change their behaviors quite often. 285 00:16:04.754 --> 00:16:09.556 Most people are not able to maintain changes in their behaviors over a long period of time. 286 00:16:09.616 --> 00:16:11.537 It is exceptionally difficult. 287 00:16:12.097 --> 00:16:17.283 So it's the maintenance phase and then there's the relapse phase, which I kind of love how it's just baked in here. 288 00:16:17.303 --> 00:16:18.464 I love how they put it in too, yeah. 289 00:16:18.484 --> 00:16:19.445 You're going to fuck up. 290 00:16:19.506 --> 00:16:19.786 Yeah. 291 00:16:19.826 --> 00:16:20.707 You're going to fuck up. 292 00:16:20.787 --> 00:16:23.330 Nobody nails the landing on the first try. 293 00:16:24.351 --> 00:16:27.955 It's going to take a few swings and you're going to have to like get back on the horse. 294 00:16:28.256 --> 00:16:29.497 How many metaphors can I use here? 295 00:16:31.459 --> 00:16:35.162 No, it's like they say in recovery programs, relapses are part of the progress, right? 296 00:16:35.182 --> 00:16:39.505 It's part of the process is learning how you react in these situations. 297 00:16:39.846 --> 00:16:42.888 And when you do fail, how are you going to bounce back or are you going to bounce back even? 298 00:16:43.148 --> 00:16:47.131 So where would you say you are with the avoidance stuff? 299 00:16:47.592 --> 00:16:51.495 I think I'm between the contemplation and action phases right now. 300 00:16:51.515 --> 00:16:53.897 I'm trying to move myself into the action phase a little bit. 301 00:16:54.817 --> 00:16:56.619 It feels like you've taken some action. 302 00:16:56.659 --> 00:16:56.999 Okay, yeah. 303 00:16:57.119 --> 00:16:57.699 Oh, no, you're right. 304 00:16:57.719 --> 00:16:58.400 You're absolutely right. 305 00:16:58.760 --> 00:17:01.803 But I think there's more action that needs to be taken. 306 00:17:02.363 --> 00:17:05.005 I think what I've realized is I've put in some of the work. 307 00:17:05.025 --> 00:17:07.547 I haven't put in all of the work. 308 00:17:07.907 --> 00:17:12.991 I think the issue is that you've learned how to perform reciprocation. 309 00:17:13.392 --> 00:17:17.235 You're not actually emotionally reciprocating that bid for affection. 310 00:17:17.255 --> 00:17:17.535 Mm-hmm. 311 00:17:18.511 --> 00:17:25.434 And so, yes, you are technically behaving in the correct way, but actually the behavior that you need to change has not been accessed yet. 312 00:17:26.334 --> 00:17:29.195 That's, yeah, that's probably true. 313 00:17:29.816 --> 00:17:30.736 That's probably a good point. 314 00:17:31.076 --> 00:17:31.336 Yeah. 315 00:17:31.616 --> 00:17:34.037 I just think this is the story I have in my head right now. 316 00:17:34.238 --> 00:17:34.518 Okay. 317 00:17:34.838 --> 00:17:42.101 Is that if I can get through this and I can kind of address those, what I'm seeing right now is the underlying issue, which is fear of abandonment. 318 00:17:42.141 --> 00:17:42.361 Right. 319 00:17:42.561 --> 00:17:48.268 If I can somehow remove that barrier, I see it as a barrier at this point to something deeper. 320 00:17:48.589 --> 00:17:49.230 I don't know what. 321 00:17:49.870 --> 00:17:56.058 It's just like if I can remove that, it feels like something's going to come flooding in or out and something's going to break wide open. 322 00:17:56.278 --> 00:17:56.959 The fury you mean? 323 00:17:56.979 --> 00:17:57.079 Yeah. 324 00:17:57.600 --> 00:17:58.961 If I can remove that fear of abandonment. 325 00:17:59.002 --> 00:17:59.242 Yeah. 326 00:17:59.622 --> 00:18:01.744 It feels like it's like, it's blocking me. 327 00:18:01.804 --> 00:18:08.151 Because another thing, and I think I've mentioned this to you before, just about every girlfriend I've had in my adult life, they've asked me what I want. 328 00:18:08.351 --> 00:18:11.034 Of course, like everybody, you know, at some point they're going to ask you that. 329 00:18:11.654 --> 00:18:12.776 And I just go blank. 330 00:18:13.216 --> 00:18:14.617 I just like, I'm just... 331 00:18:15.318 --> 00:18:16.199 I'm like, I don't know. 332 00:18:16.419 --> 00:18:17.039 I don't know what I want. 333 00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:18.000 Like, this seems fun. 334 00:18:18.080 --> 00:18:18.581 I like you. 335 00:18:19.281 --> 00:18:20.082 What more do I need? 336 00:18:20.542 --> 00:18:20.802 Right? 337 00:18:21.563 --> 00:18:26.407 And so what I think is going on, what it feels like is going on, this is a story I'm telling myself currently. 338 00:18:26.867 --> 00:18:32.111 Again, if I can remove that, then I can finally figure out what I want. 339 00:18:32.792 --> 00:18:34.433 And that will at least give me some clarity. 340 00:18:34.473 --> 00:18:37.876 I'm not going to say that's going to fix everything, but that gives me some clarity around that. 341 00:18:39.062 --> 00:18:40.644 What new narrative do I want to build? 342 00:18:40.744 --> 00:18:42.185 What new beliefs do I want to build? 343 00:18:43.126 --> 00:18:43.487 I don't know. 344 00:18:43.527 --> 00:18:46.710 Maybe that's at the same time too systematic and too abstract. 345 00:18:46.770 --> 00:18:47.190 I don't know. 346 00:18:47.391 --> 00:18:52.656 So if that scratched an itch for you, the full episode is going to ruin you for every other podcast. 347 00:18:53.016 --> 00:18:55.039 Check out the full episode on Spotify. 348 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:56.760 Search for Solved with Mark Manson. 349 00:18:57.081 --> 00:18:59.423 We go absurdly deep on every topic. 350 00:18:59.543 --> 00:19:00.965 So consider yourself warned. 351 00:19:01.405 --> 00:19:02.166 You won't regret it.