WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.904 --> 00:00:05.946 This is Beer with Duncan on Radio Northern Beaches and the Community Radio Network. 2 00:00:06.547 --> 00:00:07.527 And I'm Duncan Shee. 3 00:00:08.107 --> 00:00:11.329 This is a show about what people carry and how they put themselves back together. 4 00:00:12.029 --> 00:00:15.651 One hour, one person, and the honest truth of what it's like to be them. 5 00:00:16.271 --> 00:00:17.871 No highlight reel, no gotcha. 6 00:00:18.212 --> 00:00:20.653 The kind of conversation you would have over a beer. 7 00:00:21.413 --> 00:00:29.235 So if you're on your own tonight, in the car, at the kitchen table, or in a hospital corridor, and you need to know you're not the only one, you're in exactly the right place. 8 00:00:29.975 --> 00:00:30.595 Pull up a chair. 9 00:00:30.955 --> 00:00:33.075 This is Beer with Duncan. 10 00:00:34.196 --> 00:00:35.096 This is Beer with Duncan. 11 00:00:35.516 --> 00:00:40.597 One hour, one guest, their songs, and an honest conversation about how a life actually gets built. 12 00:00:41.577 --> 00:00:50.039 My guest today left school here on the beaches, worked as an architectural draftsperson, managed the bank branch, and then built something that changed lives. 13 00:00:50.888 --> 00:00:54.629 real paid work for people the job market had quietly written off. 14 00:00:55.449 --> 00:01:04.252 This one is about the dignity of being needed, the weight of being the one everyone leans on and the question nobody asks the people who hold everyone else. 15 00:01:05.573 --> 00:01:06.253 Who holds them? 16 00:01:07.713 --> 00:01:10.894 So stay with us and welcome Cathy Hockey. 17 00:01:11.935 --> 00:01:12.635 Thank you Duncan. 18 00:01:13.455 --> 00:01:14.716 Thank you so much for coming in today. 19 00:01:14.736 --> 00:01:16.836 It's awesome to have you on the show. 20 00:01:19.285 --> 00:01:20.526 Just to settle into things. 21 00:01:20.686 --> 00:01:20.846 Yep. 22 00:01:21.747 --> 00:01:23.869 What did this morning hold before you got here? 23 00:01:24.750 --> 00:01:25.991 This morning held... 24 00:01:27.148 --> 00:01:28.748 Some content creation. 25 00:01:29.969 --> 00:01:31.509 I'm in business for myself now. 26 00:01:31.609 --> 00:01:41.951 And so preparing my LinkedIn posts and drafting or doing a final draft on my next newsletter that I'll publish later this week. 27 00:01:42.491 --> 00:01:42.771 Yeah. 28 00:01:43.012 --> 00:01:48.193 So the usual stuff of a Monday morning for my new business. 29 00:01:48.353 --> 00:01:49.673 And what's the new business? 30 00:01:50.180 --> 00:01:57.726 So executive coaching and leadership development, and I'm working predominantly with not-for-profit executives and leaders. 31 00:01:58.286 --> 00:02:13.998 And when I say not-for-profit, I'm really talking about purpose-driven people, people who want to grow, people who want to make an impact, and they come across challenges, the complex environment that they're working in, and so I'm there to help them through that. 32 00:02:14.578 --> 00:02:15.359 Well, that's fabulous. 33 00:02:15.579 --> 00:02:15.819 Yeah. 34 00:02:15.999 --> 00:02:16.700 Really impactful. 35 00:02:17.260 --> 00:02:17.821 It feels it. 36 00:02:17.881 --> 00:02:18.201 Yeah. 37 00:02:18.441 --> 00:02:18.641 Yeah. 38 00:02:18.721 --> 00:02:19.122 I love it. 39 00:02:19.937 --> 00:02:23.820 So reading your bio, you've done some amazing things in your career. 40 00:02:25.001 --> 00:02:29.644 And so when someone asks you what you do now, what do you say first? 41 00:02:30.205 --> 00:02:30.805 Are you a coach? 42 00:02:31.225 --> 00:02:33.687 Are you a former CEO or something else? 43 00:02:34.368 --> 00:02:35.929 I think it depends on who's asking. 44 00:02:36.569 --> 00:02:38.311 Really depends on what's going on for them. 45 00:02:38.351 --> 00:02:43.094 But I tend to lead with coach, executive leadership coach. 46 00:02:43.875 --> 00:02:48.098 But if that's not their realm, then I'll be leading with something else. 47 00:02:48.138 --> 00:02:49.399 So really, yeah. 48 00:02:49.952 --> 00:02:50.513 Feed off them. 49 00:02:51.513 --> 00:02:59.040 Do you think it's challenging with such an amazing career and having that identity, like repurposing? 50 00:02:59.060 --> 00:03:02.003 You're going into obviously a new business venture now. 51 00:03:02.663 --> 00:03:09.609 Is that difficult to do, to carve out that new identity of what you were before and where you are going now? 52 00:03:10.770 --> 00:03:16.876 Yeah, it took quite a while to really link what I'd done and what I'm planning to do. 53 00:03:17.501 --> 00:03:27.306 I started the business at the beginning of 2025 and I've struggled to say that I want to develop leaders because I thought, well, who am I to say I can do that? 54 00:03:27.926 --> 00:03:38.911 And then it was really as I realized the experience that I've had and the, the challenges, the mistakes, the successes, all of that experience is what is valuable. 55 00:03:38.992 --> 00:03:43.894 So I find once I found my purpose in that, I found it easier than to 56 00:03:45.237 --> 00:03:46.518 to lead with that. 57 00:03:46.918 --> 00:03:47.138 Yep. 58 00:03:47.459 --> 00:03:47.619 Yeah. 59 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:50.961 And so my understanding is that you went to forest high. 60 00:03:52.162 --> 00:03:52.322 Yep. 61 00:03:52.502 --> 00:03:53.583 And so right here on the beaches. 62 00:03:53.603 --> 00:03:54.724 And so what kind of a kid were you? 63 00:03:56.005 --> 00:04:09.214 I was a bit of a rebel, actually a lot of people that have known me over the last couple of decades get a bit surprised and I'm not going to go into details, but I had detention. 64 00:04:10.715 --> 00:04:12.977 And I actually left school at the end of year 10. 65 00:04:13.057 --> 00:04:14.418 I was, yeah, 66 00:04:14.735 --> 00:04:23.520 a bit disruptive, not settled, and I think I just wanted to work because once I got into work, I was all for it. 67 00:04:24.281 --> 00:04:25.541 And, yeah, I had fun. 68 00:04:26.482 --> 00:04:37.589 What we did around here was we'd get down to the beach, very lucky to have that in our lives, go to the shops, hang wherever in the car parks, that sort of thing. 69 00:04:37.649 --> 00:04:38.069 So, yeah. 70 00:04:39.176 --> 00:04:43.259 So you didn't have really a defined sort of idea of what you wanted to do when you were younger. 71 00:04:43.719 --> 00:04:46.240 When did that sort of start to, I guess, crystallize for you? 72 00:04:46.260 --> 00:04:49.643 Well, probably not for 20 years after school. 73 00:04:49.663 --> 00:04:56.767 I think like I really enjoyed, I went straight into the bank and as a junior and worked my way. 74 00:04:57.392 --> 00:05:05.576 Through all the different jobs and I still remember bringing my best friend and said, I've got my own paperclips and very excited by just the structure. 75 00:05:06.396 --> 00:05:19.363 And I got very good at customer service when I was in the bank and process and remembering things and worked my way through to becoming a branch manager at 25. 76 00:05:19.783 --> 00:05:23.945 So I was a manager at Neutral Bay Branch and was approving... 77 00:05:24.812 --> 00:05:28.415 overdrafts and a lot of things that a 25 year old wouldn't do. 78 00:05:28.575 --> 00:05:30.877 And I'm not a big person. 79 00:05:30.937 --> 00:05:35.721 And so people would come in and see this young, small girl. 80 00:05:37.263 --> 00:05:37.783 Young woman. 81 00:05:38.184 --> 00:05:38.464 Yeah. 82 00:05:38.604 --> 00:05:42.988 That was, that they were applying for funds from, and I was making decisions. 83 00:05:43.028 --> 00:05:48.352 So yeah, it was, I really enjoyed that for the time that I was there. 84 00:05:48.412 --> 00:05:51.315 I was there about, um, 13 years all up. 85 00:05:51.335 --> 00:05:51.475 Mm-hmm. 86 00:05:53.157 --> 00:06:00.702 But then once I had become a manager and then went off to have kids and came back, I was part-time and I couldn't go back into a manager's role. 87 00:06:00.722 --> 00:06:06.806 There wasn't a lot of career pathways as a part-time mum and worker. 88 00:06:07.426 --> 00:06:11.569 And so that's when I made the shift into architectural drafting. 89 00:06:12.129 --> 00:06:12.689 That's amazing. 90 00:06:12.989 --> 00:06:14.190 It's a journey, isn't it? 91 00:06:14.210 --> 00:06:21.835 So whether it was in the past when you're coming through school or now, I think if you don't have it all together, it's okay. 92 00:06:22.168 --> 00:06:23.048 Yeah, exactly. 93 00:06:23.108 --> 00:06:31.470 It feels like your strengths will shine through whatever job you're in and you'll find your pathway. 94 00:06:31.830 --> 00:06:38.032 And I think that 30 years down the track I realised, oh, okay, I'm a manager, I'm a leader. 95 00:06:38.652 --> 00:06:40.912 That's where I always tended to land. 96 00:06:41.592 --> 00:06:46.134 But I couldn't have started out and said this is what my aspiration will be. 97 00:06:46.274 --> 00:06:47.354 That's fair. 98 00:06:47.574 --> 00:06:47.794 Yeah. 99 00:06:48.550 --> 00:07:00.799 So when did you first understand that work, for some people, is not just a wage, it's actually how you get to be seen as useful and as one of us? 100 00:07:01.219 --> 00:07:01.419 Mm-hmm. 101 00:07:02.500 --> 00:07:08.644 It was pretty much my first couple of weeks at Bushlink. 102 00:07:08.784 --> 00:07:17.050 So I was employed to, apart from my banking career and my architectural drafting career, then I... 103 00:07:17.637 --> 00:07:20.578 swapped again and studied conservation and land management. 104 00:07:21.018 --> 00:07:33.961 And I wanted to be like a park ranger or work with council, but one of the council guys said, oh, there's this organisation looking, they have a pilot that they're setting up in supported employment and they're looking for somebody to lead that. 105 00:07:34.001 --> 00:07:46.844 So I jumped into that and I had no experience in disability, but I had that experience in managing things, in building things and conservation and land management. 106 00:07:47.645 --> 00:08:08.093 And in my first couple of weeks there, when this new pilot, new team of people with disabilities were putting on their uniforms and showing up to work every day, that was the time that I saw the real dignity of work and the value of work and the pride in work. 107 00:08:09.034 --> 00:08:14.516 And, yeah, like every day that I was there from then is when I saw that. 108 00:08:15.052 --> 00:08:15.612 That's amazing. 109 00:08:15.793 --> 00:08:16.053 Yeah. 110 00:08:16.173 --> 00:08:22.177 So with that, we might actually move into one of the songs that you've selected today. 111 00:08:23.257 --> 00:08:27.640 And so tell me about your first song and why you've selected it. 112 00:08:29.121 --> 00:08:31.883 It's Hungry Heart by Bruce Springsteen. 113 00:08:32.564 --> 00:08:39.768 And I have been a Bruce Springsteen fan since my rebellious days back in high school. 114 00:08:39.988 --> 00:08:41.690 I really want to know more about the rebellious days. 115 00:08:42.430 --> 00:08:43.431 I think that's going to be interesting. 116 00:08:45.108 --> 00:08:57.493 I, yeah, well, one of the things was that we wagged school and went off to the Sebel Townhouse and hung outside the Sebel Townhouse to get a glimpse of Bruce, and we did. 117 00:08:57.893 --> 00:09:03.635 We waved at him, and I have seen him now nine times over 40 years. 118 00:09:04.476 --> 00:09:05.156 That's amazing. 119 00:09:05.316 --> 00:09:05.556 Yeah. 120 00:09:06.176 --> 00:09:10.798 This is Beer with Duncan on Radio Northern Beaches and the Community Radio Network. 121 00:09:11.178 --> 00:09:12.759 Well, this is The Rebellious. 122 00:09:13.925 --> 00:09:17.726 Kathy Hockey on Radio Northern Beaches 88.7 90.3. 123 00:09:21.207 --> 00:09:27.068 That's Hungry Heart by Bruce Springsteen and you're on Radio Northern Beaches 88.7 and 90.3. 124 00:09:27.668 --> 00:09:33.409 And my guest today is Kathy Hockey who has, well, we've just found out she's a very rebellious child. 125 00:09:33.910 --> 00:09:37.410 Which is maybe the next episode we'll maybe get her to talk about that. 126 00:09:37.630 --> 00:09:38.051 We'll see. 127 00:09:38.771 --> 00:09:39.471 I'll work on her. 128 00:09:40.231 --> 00:09:42.552 But we do want to talk about Bushlink. 129 00:09:43.072 --> 00:09:49.735 And so in 2008, I believe, there was a pilot, a bit of sponsorship from Roche came through. 130 00:09:50.415 --> 00:09:55.357 And it was an idea about Bushland and people the job market had written off. 131 00:09:56.658 --> 00:09:57.838 What did you set out to build? 132 00:09:58.759 --> 00:09:59.119 Okay. 133 00:09:59.179 --> 00:10:03.060 So I was employed to set up this pilot. 134 00:10:03.400 --> 00:10:09.803 And we had six people with intellectual disability, a range of disabilities, who... 135 00:10:11.165 --> 00:10:22.029 didn't want to work in the traditional sheltered type workshop employment options that were available, but they needed support so they weren't able to go out to the open job market. 136 00:10:22.569 --> 00:10:30.632 So what was created and credit where it's due, Northside was the organisation that created this and they employed me. 137 00:10:32.839 --> 00:10:44.025 It was to build a supported open employment kind of mash-up model where they were provided support every day, but they were able to choose the job that they wanted and it was out in the community. 138 00:10:44.165 --> 00:10:46.967 And so that was in Bush Regeneration and we had... 139 00:10:47.607 --> 00:10:57.633 When I came on board, we had one contract with Warringah Council, as they were called back then, and working three days a week, six people, and we... 140 00:10:59.066 --> 00:11:03.287 finished that contract and didn't renew it. 141 00:11:03.728 --> 00:11:09.950 And so there I was left with these people who we were employing and I needed to find work for them. 142 00:11:10.010 --> 00:11:20.393 So I was like knocking on doors, talking to people at soccer, at the kids soccer game, anything I could think of trying to get work for this team and applying for grants. 143 00:11:21.065 --> 00:11:21.846 All that sort of stuff. 144 00:11:21.986 --> 00:11:36.664 And so it started to trickle in a little bit, but it was very, very stressful because even though I wasn't the CEO, I wasn't the employer, I was tasked with this and I didn't want to let it go. 145 00:11:36.684 --> 00:11:38.046 I couldn't let it go. 146 00:11:38.106 --> 00:11:39.868 I built connections with these people. 147 00:11:40.658 --> 00:11:49.401 And anyway, it came, we did, I remember the Manly Daily, we got a community award through that and we won two and a half thousand. 148 00:11:49.481 --> 00:12:01.746 Every little bit helped and then gradually over time we were applying for larger grants, we were getting bigger contracts, we were a tendering and we got contracts with Northern Beaches Council and Willoughby Council. 149 00:12:02.046 --> 00:12:07.968 And then developed some, I developed a schools inclusion program because I developed a school 150 00:12:08.278 --> 00:12:12.959 knocked on the door of the school where our kids were going and said, can we come and do three days' work? 151 00:12:13.019 --> 00:12:17.400 And then from that applied for a grant, developed that. 152 00:12:17.540 --> 00:12:29.944 And so now I'm really – I was there for its first 10 years and built it into something that was sustainable and it's still going 17 years later, which is very exciting. 153 00:12:30.044 --> 00:12:34.465 That's what makes me really proud is that I'm not there anymore, but it is. 154 00:12:35.346 --> 00:12:36.527 It's really an amazing story. 155 00:12:36.587 --> 00:12:53.877 I didn't realise that you had lost the funding aspect of it, which, I mean, I work in not-for-profit world myself, so the stress of that and then feeling responsible, I guess, at the end of the day for these men and women is a lot. 156 00:12:53.937 --> 00:12:56.138 Yeah, and because I knew how much they loved it. 157 00:12:56.338 --> 00:13:00.060 Like, they absolutely had such pride in coming to work. 158 00:13:00.180 --> 00:13:03.122 They were doing a smashing job and... 159 00:13:04.160 --> 00:13:07.383 I had faith in them, but not everybody did. 160 00:13:08.303 --> 00:13:10.885 We had to go out and prove ourselves a lot. 161 00:13:12.286 --> 00:13:13.287 But we got there. 162 00:13:13.487 --> 00:13:14.688 We pushed and we got there. 163 00:13:14.908 --> 00:13:19.532 And there's upwards of 14 staff now. 164 00:13:19.592 --> 00:13:22.194 There's a couple that have been there since the very beginning. 165 00:13:22.454 --> 00:13:25.076 They're going on to their 17th, 18th year, so... 166 00:13:26.790 --> 00:13:27.370 It's incredible. 167 00:13:27.390 --> 00:13:27.870 That's incredible. 168 00:13:27.890 --> 00:13:28.251 Well done. 169 00:13:28.311 --> 00:13:29.131 That's amazing. 170 00:13:29.151 --> 00:13:32.312 A testament to you and everyone else who put all that work in. 171 00:13:33.112 --> 00:13:39.855 And like Bushlink, it put people obviously with disability into the real paid work, regenerating the bush, which is right here in the beaches, which is amazing itself. 172 00:13:40.755 --> 00:13:49.818 And so tell me about the first time you watched someone stand taller because they had a job. 173 00:13:50.278 --> 00:13:55.400 So when we developed the school's inclusion program, what I did was I – 174 00:13:56.220 --> 00:14:10.353 I saw that people with disabilities were then going into schools and teaching kids about how to look after their school grounds, weeding, how to plant properly, how to identify weeds and native plants. 175 00:14:11.094 --> 00:14:15.938 And so our staff with disability were taking a leadership role 176 00:14:16.815 --> 00:14:20.176 with the kids and they just stood so tall in that. 177 00:14:20.816 --> 00:14:28.038 And I tasked some of them with delivering the safety briefing to this whole class of school kids. 178 00:14:28.058 --> 00:14:32.779 So that sort of thing, like giving them opportunities to step up and push themselves. 179 00:14:33.379 --> 00:14:45.862 I had one person who we employed who, great gregarious, amazing guy, and we were going to a particular school and he just wasn't himself that morning and I, 180 00:14:46.822 --> 00:14:53.224 pulled him aside for a little chat and worked out that he'd actually gone to that school and he'd been bullied at that school. 181 00:14:53.404 --> 00:14:54.204 It was a high school. 182 00:14:54.785 --> 00:14:57.926 So he was feeling quite nervous about heading in. 183 00:14:58.926 --> 00:15:03.827 And so we talked about the support that he would need through that and did it. 184 00:15:03.948 --> 00:15:14.471 And yeah, he just stood up and came away from that day with like an amazing feeling and something that had sat with him for years and years. 185 00:15:15.303 --> 00:15:30.269 just by providing, just by noticing something, having a conversation, and then providing the individual support that that person needed allowed him to move on and take a step forward. 186 00:15:30.775 --> 00:15:31.655 That's a beautiful story. 187 00:15:31.815 --> 00:15:31.955 Yeah. 188 00:15:31.975 --> 00:15:32.455 It's amazing. 189 00:15:32.475 --> 00:15:33.255 Yeah. 190 00:15:33.275 --> 00:15:40.677 And like some of your team, I understand, they've been with you since, I guess, Bushlink first began, which is, again, testament to the leadership of it. 191 00:15:41.177 --> 00:15:42.597 And my question is around that. 192 00:15:42.657 --> 00:15:46.698 So what have they taught you that no leadership course could? 193 00:15:47.678 --> 00:15:48.158 A lot. 194 00:15:48.958 --> 00:15:49.378 A lot. 195 00:15:50.018 --> 00:16:00.100 I think that real sort of nuanced communication, that sense of a person and, as I was saying, recognising when somebody's just not. 196 00:16:00.387 --> 00:16:02.008 quite themselves to be able to do that. 197 00:16:02.028 --> 00:16:04.310 You need to know them quite well to begin with. 198 00:16:04.910 --> 00:16:15.877 And something that the organization did really well and that I have taken through is they had a one page profile on each person that was being supported. 199 00:16:16.397 --> 00:16:20.520 And so that one page profile says, what, what's important to me? 200 00:16:21.100 --> 00:16:24.142 What do people admire about me and how to best support me? 201 00:16:24.663 --> 00:16:26.704 And so when I think of coaching now, 202 00:16:28.112 --> 00:16:38.895 I'm looking to help people understand what they value, what their values are, what their strengths are and what supports they have around them to do their best. 203 00:16:39.296 --> 00:16:46.778 And so that, that very simple one page profile was something that I was using every day. 204 00:16:46.838 --> 00:16:53.300 And then as I went through my leadership journey and now into coaching, that really shaped my approach to how I work with people. 205 00:16:54.400 --> 00:16:54.900 That's amazing. 206 00:16:55.901 --> 00:16:57.661 It's funny where you get your lessons from, isn't it? 207 00:16:57.681 --> 00:16:58.021 I know. 208 00:16:58.121 --> 00:16:58.802 It's amazing. 209 00:16:59.462 --> 00:17:02.603 And so Bushlink's mantra is the spirit of inclusion. 210 00:17:02.623 --> 00:17:02.843 Yes. 211 00:17:03.203 --> 00:17:04.544 So whose words were those? 212 00:17:06.464 --> 00:17:12.026 We, well, we had a lovely grant from the Ian Potter Foundation, shout out to them. 213 00:17:12.226 --> 00:17:13.767 They're an amazing organization. 214 00:17:14.487 --> 00:17:22.250 And part of that was to do a video and some marketing to out to schools, to grow our schools program. 215 00:17:22.370 --> 00:17:22.810 And so, 216 00:17:23.290 --> 00:17:24.510 It was a collaboration. 217 00:17:24.690 --> 00:17:28.911 We came up with that with the gurus, the marketing gurus. 218 00:17:29.051 --> 00:17:30.831 Yeah, something that felt right. 219 00:17:30.851 --> 00:17:32.392 You always need a marketing guru, don't you? 220 00:17:32.452 --> 00:17:33.092 That's for sure. 221 00:17:33.112 --> 00:17:33.772 Everyone needs one. 222 00:17:34.052 --> 00:17:34.692 Yeah. 223 00:17:35.012 --> 00:17:36.792 So we'll get on with your next song, actually. 224 00:17:37.672 --> 00:17:40.713 It is, I believe, The Climb from Miley Cyrus. 225 00:17:40.733 --> 00:17:41.873 So tell us why this song. 226 00:17:42.633 --> 00:17:52.675 It was at the very beginning of Bushlink I had some difficult times with the people saying no to things, but there was also a family – 227 00:17:53.230 --> 00:18:08.124 Homicide, actually, that happened around that time and I went through a pretty hard period and so I would often get in my car at the end of the day and put this song on just to let it all out because I'd been holding it in all day. 228 00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:10.240 Well, you definitely have to let it out. 229 00:18:10.340 --> 00:18:10.540 Yeah. 230 00:18:10.601 --> 00:18:11.221 That is for sure. 231 00:18:11.401 --> 00:18:11.561 Yeah. 232 00:18:12.041 --> 00:18:16.642 This is Beer with Duncan on Radio Northern Beaches and the Community Radio Network. 233 00:18:16.782 --> 00:18:17.563 This is a climb. 234 00:18:18.343 --> 00:18:18.943 Miley Cyrus. 235 00:18:18.963 --> 00:18:22.724 We're talking to Cathy Hockey on Radio Northern Beaches, 88.7, 90.3. 236 00:18:22.844 --> 00:18:27.125 It's Cathy Hockey. 237 00:18:27.405 --> 00:18:34.988 She's a rebellious child in her own admission, CEO, and has done many wonderful things on the Northern Beaches community. 238 00:18:36.128 --> 00:18:36.328 So... 239 00:18:37.800 --> 00:18:52.449 I'd probably like to talk about you ran windmill at Royal Far West and then took the CEO's chair at an NDIS provider through, I guess, reportedly some of the hardest years, potentially, that the scheme has had. 240 00:18:53.349 --> 00:18:55.570 Can you take me to like one bad night? 241 00:18:56.931 --> 00:18:58.052 I can take you to many. 242 00:18:59.773 --> 00:19:06.317 I think, well, this was the same organization that I'd run Bushlink through and the CEO role came up and... 243 00:19:07.361 --> 00:19:12.642 I knew that I could be helpful and, and, you know, support the people again. 244 00:19:14.143 --> 00:19:24.805 But when I was like three days into it, I had a board meeting and felt really unwell and woke up the next morning with a scratchy throat and I'd come down with COVID. 245 00:19:25.085 --> 00:19:25.446 Oh no. 246 00:19:25.506 --> 00:19:32.427 So this was just after that second kind of Omicron when we thought we were home and hosed and then, yeah. 247 00:19:33.348 --> 00:19:35.008 And so that was like, 248 00:19:35.677 --> 00:19:40.538 oh my gosh, how do I be three days into my role and I've got to quarantine and stay home? 249 00:19:41.038 --> 00:19:42.679 And also I was so worried. 250 00:19:42.739 --> 00:19:44.039 It's a disability service. 251 00:19:44.099 --> 00:19:49.200 I thought, what if I've passed it on, you know, to these people who are vulnerable? 252 00:19:49.260 --> 00:19:52.181 Their immunity is not as strong, some of them. 253 00:19:52.501 --> 00:19:56.882 And so, yeah, and I think the... 254 00:19:59.710 --> 00:20:07.192 That first, I know you asked for a night, but I'm just going to let you know, the first couple of months I had, there was that. 255 00:20:07.532 --> 00:20:21.616 And then I had one of our team members, one of my leadership team had been unwell for a really long time and she passed away within my first couple of months there, but she was still at work until a few weeks before. 256 00:20:23.156 --> 00:20:25.817 Then my son's car blew up in Tasmania, so that was... 257 00:20:26.502 --> 00:20:53.258 a drama and then we had that hundred year flood on the northern beaches that was all within my first couple of months as a ceo and i was like what on earth am i doing it was yeah i just felt so overwhelmed and yeah and i guess with that like where did you feel it on those nights obviously generally the you feel it within your body how did you feel it 258 00:20:54.376 --> 00:20:55.056 How does it take on you? 259 00:20:55.096 --> 00:20:57.217 We'll take COVID away because that just. 260 00:20:57.377 --> 00:20:57.517 Yeah. 261 00:20:57.537 --> 00:20:58.538 That makes you feel awful. 262 00:20:58.558 --> 00:20:59.538 A horrible thing anyway. 263 00:21:00.219 --> 00:21:19.727 I think just this feeling of that overwhelmed feeling where you don't know what to think, like what's your next step, like how to get your head above water, that, that real feeling of drowning and who do I turn to and the realization that I'm, I'm the. 264 00:21:20.681 --> 00:21:25.762 I'm the person that is holding this and needs to bring everybody along. 265 00:21:26.322 --> 00:21:34.104 And so you need to rock up that next morning with your big girl pants on and lead the team. 266 00:21:35.004 --> 00:21:36.085 Did you have anyone in your corner? 267 00:21:37.105 --> 00:21:39.185 I always have people in my corner. 268 00:21:39.606 --> 00:21:44.527 I think that's really important and different people at different times in my life. 269 00:21:44.787 --> 00:21:49.248 And so, yeah, I think that's absolutely whether it's, 270 00:21:50.300 --> 00:21:55.722 Family, friends, mentors, coaches, therapists, anything. 271 00:21:56.262 --> 00:21:57.462 There's always someone. 272 00:21:57.682 --> 00:21:58.202 Always someone. 273 00:21:58.322 --> 00:21:58.522 Yeah. 274 00:21:59.062 --> 00:22:07.065 And it's always, if you are feeling it, there are plenty of amazing services out there and we have Lifeline on the Northern Beaches, Beyond Blue and many others. 275 00:22:07.145 --> 00:22:15.947 And if you are feeling it out there today, make sure you reach out to someone that, whether it's not your family or friends, someone that can provide a professional service. 276 00:22:17.347 --> 00:22:18.708 The NDIS scheme... 277 00:22:19.740 --> 00:22:24.441 It seemed to be changing under you the whole time, and it probably still is to this day. 278 00:22:24.481 --> 00:22:25.542 It absolutely is. 279 00:22:25.742 --> 00:22:30.143 What's the gap between the policy on paper and the person sitting in front of you? 280 00:22:31.663 --> 00:22:37.485 There's a big gap, and it's evolved over even the few years since I've been there. 281 00:22:38.285 --> 00:22:48.848 I think one of the things that I noticed was the funding that people would get didn't necessarily match the support that they needed. 282 00:22:49.500 --> 00:23:01.486 And so there were times, there was one particular time we had to make a decision, or I had to make a decision, on somebody who was getting one to two support. 283 00:23:01.546 --> 00:23:07.989 So they were supposed to be in a group of two people with one support worker, but they really needed one-to-one support to keep them safe. 284 00:23:08.789 --> 00:23:13.572 And the behaviour support plan said that, but the funding didn't match that. 285 00:23:14.172 --> 00:23:18.454 And so we had to make a decision on somebody that we'd been supporting for 20-odd years and... 286 00:23:19.028 --> 00:23:29.317 of whether we continue to support them at a loss or let them go to another provider who would just give them one to two support. 287 00:23:29.837 --> 00:23:35.362 And of course we decided to take the loss because that's the heart of the sector. 288 00:23:35.442 --> 00:23:37.644 It's the humanity of it, isn't it? 289 00:23:37.724 --> 00:23:45.310 Yeah, so that's just an example of the sorts of things that are coming up and I know a lot of the people that I coach are, 290 00:23:46.099 --> 00:23:51.722 CEOs of similar organisations and they're going through very similar problems. 291 00:23:51.902 --> 00:23:53.563 Yeah, a lot of uncertainty. 292 00:23:54.564 --> 00:23:59.226 You had to ask of funders, of government, of sponsors to keep people in dignified work. 293 00:24:00.767 --> 00:24:02.708 What's the hardest ask of that job? 294 00:24:05.010 --> 00:24:12.614 The hardest ask was, and I think I touched on it before, was that having to prove that they can do the job. 295 00:24:13.461 --> 00:24:20.806 because they have a disability there is that ableism out there where people make the assumption that they can't do the job. 296 00:24:21.106 --> 00:24:25.429 We had to prove ourselves time and time again to get the contract, to get the funding. 297 00:24:26.470 --> 00:24:29.752 And, yeah, that was tough. 298 00:24:30.653 --> 00:24:31.413 That's hard, isn't it? 299 00:24:31.593 --> 00:24:31.853 Yeah. 300 00:24:32.534 --> 00:24:35.256 Yeah. 301 00:24:35.736 --> 00:24:38.958 It's just sad to hear those stories. 302 00:24:39.118 --> 00:24:39.939 Yeah, yeah. 303 00:24:40.019 --> 00:24:42.901 With everything that's going on and the humanity... 304 00:24:43.870 --> 00:24:47.353 And the dignity that's lost for many people out there. 305 00:24:49.055 --> 00:24:52.338 You've said the emotional labor of the work is heavy. 306 00:24:55.061 --> 00:25:00.847 Even when things go to plan, when did you first feel that weight land on you? 307 00:25:04.751 --> 00:25:07.854 Well, I think, yeah, that first couple of months. 308 00:25:07.914 --> 00:25:08.154 Yeah. 309 00:25:09.263 --> 00:25:16.785 But then as much as the funding ratios or any sort of regulation, things could be tough. 310 00:25:17.546 --> 00:25:30.850 Anytime there was like a human experience, a human situation where I'd need to support, like with something was getting to me and I'd need to support the team to get through it as well. 311 00:25:31.991 --> 00:25:36.312 That I think is the times when you're supporting people. 312 00:25:38.942 --> 00:25:40.382 And you're going through a hard time. 313 00:25:40.642 --> 00:25:41.763 That's when it's the hardest. 314 00:25:41.823 --> 00:25:42.463 That's the hardest. 315 00:25:42.503 --> 00:25:42.783 Yeah. 316 00:25:45.024 --> 00:25:47.964 We have another song which we'll head to. 317 00:25:49.025 --> 00:25:51.365 This is, or you can introduce it perhaps. 318 00:25:51.985 --> 00:25:54.806 Let me tell you, it's Sir Duke by Stevie Wonder. 319 00:25:55.246 --> 00:25:56.066 Tell us why. 320 00:25:56.767 --> 00:25:58.707 Well, to shift the mood. 321 00:25:59.527 --> 00:26:06.029 Just any time this song comes on, I just like, well, I'm not going to dance around the studio, but I would like, 322 00:26:06.866 --> 00:26:07.847 She dances. 323 00:26:08.227 --> 00:26:09.729 You just can't help to dance to it. 324 00:26:09.809 --> 00:26:11.090 It's so fun. 325 00:26:14.493 --> 00:26:18.776 So Duke, Stevie Wonder, and you're on Northern Beaches Radio. 326 00:26:18.816 --> 00:26:20.378 We lifted the mood with that, didn't we? 327 00:26:20.398 --> 00:26:22.599 We did have a little bit of a dance around in the studio. 328 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:28.664 So after three years in the chair, you stepped out to coach the people who do this work. 329 00:26:29.405 --> 00:26:31.307 What made you put the executive role down? 330 00:26:31.327 --> 00:26:31.647 Yeah. 331 00:26:32.631 --> 00:26:36.414 It was really that, that I recognised. 332 00:26:36.574 --> 00:26:51.144 As I said, I came back into the organisation knowing that I could help with what was needed at the time and that a lot of that was systems and people and culture and that's the bit that I loved the most. 333 00:26:51.484 --> 00:26:56.347 And so I decided to, that was my next step. 334 00:26:56.648 --> 00:27:01.411 The contract was for three years and I thought I've got a particular skill set that suits 335 00:27:02.143 --> 00:27:11.108 the organisation at this time, but I was really keen for some new eyes on the organisation as well because previous CEO had been there 20 years. 336 00:27:11.408 --> 00:27:13.009 I had 13 years there all up. 337 00:27:13.710 --> 00:27:19.233 Good time for somebody else to come and see what they could do and I had something that I really wanted to do as well. 338 00:27:20.053 --> 00:27:23.455 And, yeah, so that's what drove me to do that. 339 00:27:23.515 --> 00:27:31.140 And I think recognising that the sector itself is this great group of people 340 00:27:31.664 --> 00:27:49.477 and leaders who have so much heart and really incredible workers and leaders, sometimes they came from the front line like me through to CEO or to executive and they could potentially use some help with some of the challenges along the way. 341 00:27:50.237 --> 00:27:50.838 That's great. 342 00:27:51.018 --> 00:27:56.001 I guess, so because you get to spend your days helping leaders now, help them not burn out. 343 00:27:56.241 --> 00:27:56.462 Yeah. 344 00:27:56.622 --> 00:27:58.263 To be honest, did you have to learn the hard way? 345 00:28:01.553 --> 00:28:06.194 I didn't burn out, but I think there's levels of burning out. 346 00:28:06.834 --> 00:28:24.637 And whether that means needing to take just a holiday, a step away, as I was saying before, just that feeling of overwhelm and not knowing where to turn, being able to take a step back is like an incredible thing. 347 00:28:24.657 --> 00:28:28.518 And that can be as simple as a walk around the block, or it can be, 348 00:28:29.187 --> 00:28:31.289 holiday or a change of scene. 349 00:28:31.309 --> 00:28:40.317 But yeah, I really want to help people not to burn out, to be there, to see that impact that they're creating and to thrive through that. 350 00:28:40.557 --> 00:28:42.058 So, but yeah, absolutely. 351 00:28:42.218 --> 00:28:44.080 Many times of feeling burnt out. 352 00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:50.726 I guess that's one thing, like as a leader you work with, you ask every leader one way or another, who holds them? 353 00:28:51.586 --> 00:28:53.088 And so who holds you? 354 00:28:53.808 --> 00:28:54.349 Who holds me? 355 00:28:54.369 --> 00:28:56.354 Yeah. 356 00:28:56.374 --> 00:28:58.017 I, a lot of different people. 357 00:28:58.358 --> 00:29:04.631 I am in this great coaching program that has a community of. 358 00:29:06.006 --> 00:29:11.149 about 30 different coaches all working in different types of industries. 359 00:29:11.469 --> 00:29:18.333 And so that's a great sounding board and support cheerleading, that sort of thing for each other. 360 00:29:19.134 --> 00:29:22.415 Family, a great support. 361 00:29:22.956 --> 00:29:26.778 I have a mention before there was a homicide in the family. 362 00:29:26.818 --> 00:29:30.140 So we've had support through victim services for, 363 00:29:31.237 --> 00:29:32.378 the last 17 years. 364 00:29:32.438 --> 00:29:38.644 So I've got somebody I can draw in there and other people in the sector that I've worked with over the years. 365 00:29:39.604 --> 00:29:39.845 Yeah. 366 00:29:41.546 --> 00:29:46.971 So leading for good exists to stop for purpose, people running themselves into the ground. 367 00:29:48.372 --> 00:29:51.054 What's the one thing they nearly all get wrong? 368 00:29:52.276 --> 00:29:58.201 Realizing that they can't do it all. 369 00:30:00.592 --> 00:30:01.394 Yep. 370 00:30:01.414 --> 00:30:11.155 And yeah, it's really interesting because a lot of the same challenges come up for the people that I'm coaching and imposter syndrome comes up often. 371 00:30:13.096 --> 00:30:20.581 just like a blind spot, not realizing how they're coming across to somebody or how they're valuing themselves. 372 00:30:20.661 --> 00:30:26.325 So there's a lot of things that are similar across people because we're people. 373 00:30:26.705 --> 00:30:27.906 Yeah, exactly. 374 00:30:28.326 --> 00:30:29.107 Imposter syndrome. 375 00:30:29.387 --> 00:30:30.088 Talk to me about that. 376 00:30:30.548 --> 00:30:33.090 It took me 25 years to do this, what we're doing here today. 377 00:30:33.730 --> 00:30:35.091 Talk to me about imposter syndrome. 378 00:30:35.551 --> 00:30:37.653 Well, for me personally, it comes up. 379 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:42.924 in relation to not having gone through a full education. 380 00:30:43.624 --> 00:30:55.914 So having left school in year 10, not having gone to uni, I'm around the boardroom now or in leadership forums and I feel sometimes people have a different language to me. 381 00:30:56.534 --> 00:30:59.557 I've been on the ground and... 382 00:31:00.385 --> 00:31:03.347 They might have been on the ground, but they've also been through uni. 383 00:31:03.367 --> 00:31:06.730 There's a different language sometimes I find in some environments. 384 00:31:06.750 --> 00:31:11.273 So that comes up for me and it's taken me... 385 00:31:11.674 --> 00:31:24.764 This particular year or 18 months has been really where I've recognised the value of the experience that I've had and that that brings its own unique value that other people won't have the same. 386 00:31:25.904 --> 00:31:26.225 So... 387 00:31:27.765 --> 00:31:29.966 I'm learning because I coach myself. 388 00:31:30.866 --> 00:31:32.626 Obviously, as a coach, we do that. 389 00:31:32.686 --> 00:31:36.787 We often sit down and ask ourselves the challenging questions. 390 00:31:36.907 --> 00:31:45.369 And, yeah, it's taken a bit of time, but I've gotten to the point where when that pops up, I can give myself a talking to. 391 00:31:45.389 --> 00:31:47.530 Is it a good talking to? 392 00:31:47.550 --> 00:31:48.230 Yeah. 393 00:31:48.350 --> 00:31:48.590 Yeah. 394 00:31:49.010 --> 00:31:49.570 What do you say? 395 00:31:50.510 --> 00:31:57.272 Well, I say that I have experienced something that other people haven't. 396 00:31:58.072 --> 00:32:03.174 And I remind myself of the values of what I've come out of with that. 397 00:32:04.314 --> 00:32:05.594 And yeah, I don't know. 398 00:32:05.754 --> 00:32:07.275 I don't have particular words. 399 00:32:07.415 --> 00:32:10.076 I think it's an internal unsaid thing. 400 00:32:10.276 --> 00:32:15.157 It's not like there's a script that you're telling yourself and you're beating yourself up within that. 401 00:32:15.257 --> 00:32:17.858 No, no, it's not a mantra or anything like that. 402 00:32:18.058 --> 00:32:23.180 And, and with other people, it's finding, helping them to, 403 00:32:23.773 --> 00:32:34.142 recognize what they've achieved, what their unique experience have brought, and seeing how that is valuable for the scenario. 404 00:32:34.723 --> 00:32:41.168 Or it might be, yeah, usually imposter syndrome isn't that factual. 405 00:32:41.449 --> 00:32:45.412 It's like just yourself, your story that you tell yourself. 406 00:32:45.512 --> 00:32:45.993 Story, yeah. 407 00:32:46.453 --> 00:32:47.214 No, I appreciate that. 408 00:32:47.294 --> 00:32:47.534 Yeah. 409 00:32:48.215 --> 00:32:50.497 You say warmth and trust are what let you... 410 00:32:51.479 --> 00:32:53.359 challenge someone hard. 411 00:32:54.520 --> 00:32:56.240 How do you learn that order? 412 00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:59.080 Is it the warmth before the hard truth? 413 00:33:00.761 --> 00:33:06.802 There needs to be that trust first to be able to, for people to open up. 414 00:33:07.922 --> 00:33:11.862 I mean, some people may just come in and let it all out. 415 00:33:12.683 --> 00:33:13.203 That happens. 416 00:33:14.183 --> 00:33:20.804 But I do find that if I help them to know that they're in a safe space, 417 00:33:21.837 --> 00:33:24.178 And it's not by saying you are in a safe space. 418 00:33:24.358 --> 00:33:29.559 It's actually by showing them that, being there for them, listening. 419 00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:38.622 And yeah, once that trust is built, it's like however much trust you've built is how you can push. 420 00:33:38.922 --> 00:33:39.182 Yeah. 421 00:33:39.662 --> 00:33:39.862 Yeah. 422 00:33:40.843 --> 00:33:41.263 I like that. 423 00:33:41.523 --> 00:33:42.303 I like it. 424 00:33:42.963 --> 00:33:46.884 Well, you're listening to Cathy Hockey on Radio Northern Beaches 88.7 90.3. 425 00:33:49.738 --> 00:33:57.046 We have another song, Kathy, and I believe it is Ready For It by Taylor Swift. 426 00:33:57.627 --> 00:33:58.548 Why this one? 427 00:33:58.808 --> 00:34:05.856 Well, because I thought I should bring something a bit more modern because I'm a real 70s, 80s music person. 428 00:34:06.277 --> 00:34:07.058 I love that. 429 00:34:07.078 --> 00:34:08.059 That's insane. 430 00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:10.842 But I do love the bass line on this and yeah. 431 00:34:14.467 --> 00:34:19.091 This is Beer with Duncan on Radio Northern Beaches and the Community Radio Network. 432 00:34:19.311 --> 00:34:20.592 That is Taylor Swift. 433 00:34:20.793 --> 00:34:21.453 Ready for it. 434 00:34:21.573 --> 00:34:23.815 Radio Northern Beaches, 88.7, 90.3. 435 00:34:24.436 --> 00:34:25.337 And we have Kathy Hockey. 436 00:34:25.357 --> 00:34:27.318 I'll tell you what, Kathy. 437 00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:28.439 Our hour's nearly up. 438 00:34:28.680 --> 00:34:29.000 Oh, no. 439 00:34:29.160 --> 00:34:30.381 That's flown through, hasn't it? 440 00:34:30.441 --> 00:34:31.902 We'll have to do another one of these, I think. 441 00:34:32.063 --> 00:34:32.423 Follow up. 442 00:34:32.803 --> 00:34:33.364 I think so. 443 00:34:34.284 --> 00:34:37.587 You admit a selfie still feels uncomfortable. 444 00:34:37.908 --> 00:34:38.148 Mm-hmm. 445 00:34:39.965 --> 00:34:46.890 Where does that discomfort with being seen come from in a woman who has spent her life putting other people forward? 446 00:34:49.312 --> 00:34:59.679 It's a good question, but I think there's certain people who love being in front of the camera and putting themselves forward and good luck to them. 447 00:35:00.540 --> 00:35:02.741 It's practice at the moment for me. 448 00:35:02.801 --> 00:35:03.902 Like I have to do it. 449 00:35:04.062 --> 00:35:09.106 I have to be visible if people won't know what I do unless I tell them. 450 00:35:10.126 --> 00:35:15.308 And it has come down to understanding why I'm doing it. 451 00:35:16.589 --> 00:35:27.553 That gives me the guts to put the photo out there, put myself out there because I know that I believe in what I'm doing. 452 00:35:27.933 --> 00:35:38.317 And that translates back to why it was so easy for me when I'm putting other people forward over the last few years with the teams, Bushlink, et cetera. 453 00:35:39.223 --> 00:35:42.925 very easy to like get up and speak and help them speak. 454 00:35:43.886 --> 00:35:55.072 And I think now in coaching, when I am sitting in a coaching session, I'm actually in my most comfortable place because I'm taking that back seat. 455 00:35:55.753 --> 00:36:02.657 I'm letting the other person open up with their story and I'm listening and there's none of my agenda. 456 00:36:02.677 --> 00:36:04.057 There's none of my anything in there. 457 00:36:04.157 --> 00:36:08.620 And so that is where I feel happy, but now I'm getting excited. 458 00:36:09.352 --> 00:36:13.353 I just put my CEO hat on, my big girl pants on and say, you've got to do it. 459 00:36:13.433 --> 00:36:15.733 You've got to market yourself, put yourself out there. 460 00:36:15.753 --> 00:36:16.974 Otherwise, nobody will know. 461 00:36:17.094 --> 00:36:21.295 And I can help people and I want to help people. 462 00:36:21.515 --> 00:36:25.656 And to do that, I need them to know that I'm here. 463 00:36:27.516 --> 00:36:32.737 There's a purpose-led leader listening right now who is running on empty. 464 00:36:33.777 --> 00:36:34.817 They're carrying everyone. 465 00:36:35.718 --> 00:36:37.018 Sure that no one is carrying them. 466 00:36:38.188 --> 00:36:41.729 forget me, what do you want to say to them? 467 00:36:44.070 --> 00:36:51.992 I would say that there are others feeling like you're feeling right now and you're not alone. 468 00:36:52.032 --> 00:36:58.274 There's always somebody that you can go to or somewhere that you can get help. 469 00:36:58.294 --> 00:37:07.237 I would suggest finding something that you love and feel at ease in and 470 00:37:08.907 --> 00:37:09.687 jumping into that. 471 00:37:09.847 --> 00:37:15.150 It could just be a cup of tea, walk around the block, anything, look at the horizon, feel your feet on the floor. 472 00:37:15.230 --> 00:37:17.731 Any, it can be really, really simple. 473 00:37:18.911 --> 00:37:21.753 There is a next step, there is a way forward. 474 00:37:21.993 --> 00:37:31.557 And it's about giving yourself that breathing space and the answer will come or asking somebody for help and the answer will come. 475 00:37:33.958 --> 00:37:35.579 And there's someone listening 476 00:37:36.725 --> 00:37:41.928 who has been told their whole life that they're a recipient of care, not a contributor. 477 00:37:43.209 --> 00:37:44.189 What do you want them to know? 478 00:37:45.870 --> 00:37:47.971 Everybody is a contributor. 479 00:37:48.692 --> 00:37:54.355 We are not in this society without the diversity, without every type of person. 480 00:37:55.155 --> 00:38:00.138 And if you can either yourself or get help to understand what 481 00:38:00.706 --> 00:38:15.756 you really value and what you're not just what you're good at, but what gives you energy and finding out what are the supports that you can surround yourself with, then you will do your absolute best. 482 00:38:16.857 --> 00:38:18.438 But yeah, everybody's a contributor. 483 00:38:18.778 --> 00:38:19.578 It's a lovely answer. 484 00:38:19.598 --> 00:38:20.939 Thanks. 485 00:38:20.959 --> 00:38:27.383 So the young woman drafting buildings in 2003, you had no idea any of this was coming. 486 00:38:27.403 --> 00:38:27.664 Okay. 487 00:38:31.207 --> 00:38:34.308 If you could sit beside her now, what would you tell her? 488 00:38:36.369 --> 00:38:41.051 Wow, it's been an incredible – well, that's 23 years. 489 00:38:41.111 --> 00:38:41.351 Wow. 490 00:38:43.132 --> 00:38:45.273 I did that for six years or seven years. 491 00:38:47.774 --> 00:38:50.015 You are going to – 492 00:38:51.608 --> 00:38:57.533 find your calling and you're going to have times that are really, really tough. 493 00:38:57.753 --> 00:39:11.986 But the people that you spend this time with really lift you up and bring so much joy because that you spend your time with want to grow. 494 00:39:12.106 --> 00:39:13.167 They want to learn. 495 00:39:13.487 --> 00:39:13.907 They grow. 496 00:39:14.908 --> 00:39:20.333 are open and that's an incredible group of people to surround yourself with. 497 00:39:20.513 --> 00:39:29.802 So all of those challenges that you're going to go through are absolutely outweighed by the people you get to spend time with. 498 00:39:31.844 --> 00:39:33.765 That's a beautiful way to finish. 499 00:39:33.786 --> 00:39:34.426 Oh, nice. 500 00:39:34.786 --> 00:39:35.027 Nice. 501 00:39:35.720 --> 00:39:40.543 Kathy Hockey, thank you for being with me today and trusting us with this conversation. 502 00:39:40.563 --> 00:39:41.263 My pleasure. 503 00:39:42.104 --> 00:39:44.365 I know it took me a little while to get you here, didn't it? 504 00:39:44.385 --> 00:39:45.586 I'm not quite sure about this. 505 00:39:48.230 --> 00:39:58.272 One of my takeaways, I think, from today is that if you're out there listening and you're in the midst of change, you're not sure if you've got it all together. 506 00:39:59.233 --> 00:40:06.654 You don't quite know, even if you're a student finishing school this year and you're not quite sure of your path, it's okay. 507 00:40:07.715 --> 00:40:08.155 Absolutely. 508 00:40:08.175 --> 00:40:09.255 It's going to be okay. 509 00:40:09.835 --> 00:40:12.076 And there are a lot of people out there that'll help you. 510 00:40:12.916 --> 00:40:15.556 And most of the times you've just got to ask. 511 00:40:16.097 --> 00:40:17.877 Yeah, absolutely. 512 00:40:18.478 --> 00:40:21.641 And if you are running on empty, there is some great support out there. 513 00:40:22.321 --> 00:40:27.905 So Lifeline on 13 11 14, Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636. 514 00:40:28.866 --> 00:40:34.691 So if today's conversation found you in your own hard chapter, pass it on to someone who needs it. 515 00:40:35.852 --> 00:40:37.953 I'm Duncan, and thanks for listening. 516 00:40:38.954 --> 00:40:39.795 Look after each other. 517 00:40:40.958 --> 00:40:43.939 And finally, we've got one more song, don't we, Kathy? 518 00:40:44.099 --> 00:40:44.459 We do. 519 00:40:44.879 --> 00:40:48.360 The last song of the hour. 520 00:40:49.340 --> 00:40:49.940 Talk me through it. 521 00:40:50.801 --> 00:40:54.182 This was the very first record that I bought. 522 00:40:54.502 --> 00:40:55.782 I wanted to buy a compilation. 523 00:40:55.842 --> 00:40:58.003 My mum made me buy Helen Reddy. 524 00:40:58.883 --> 00:41:05.044 And this song, Peaceful, is something that I use when I just want some time to chill. 525 00:41:06.625 --> 00:41:07.205 Time to chill. 526 00:41:10.902 --> 00:41:15.827 This is Beer with Duncan on Radio Northern Beaches and the Community Radio Network. 527 00:41:16.448 --> 00:41:17.429 And I'm Duncan Sheeve. 528 00:41:17.989 --> 00:41:21.233 This is a show about what people carry and how they put themselves back together. 529 00:41:21.933 --> 00:41:25.537 One hour, one person, and the honest truth of what it's like to be them. 530 00:41:26.158 --> 00:41:27.759 No highlight reel, no gotcha. 531 00:41:28.120 --> 00:41:30.502 The kind of conversation you would have over a beer. 532 00:41:31.303 --> 00:41:39.128 So if you're on your own tonight, in the car, at the kitchen table, or in a hospital corridor, and you need to know you're not the only one, you're in exactly the right place. 533 00:41:39.868 --> 00:41:40.488 Pull up a chair. 534 00:41:40.849 --> 00:41:42.950 This is Beer with Duncan.