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How do you know you talk too much?

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So first thing is nonverbal cues.

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Someone is checking out if they are opening their mouth as if to say something.

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I call it the open fish.

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And that's a subtle cue that you talk too much.

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Do you think they're listening right now and think, fuck, that's me?

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Yes.

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And there was a recent study when they found that 95% of people have worked with someone who talks too much.

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Well, I have a do you talk too much test.

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So there's five questions here.

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And if you answer more than three times, you're probably an over talker.

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Yeah.

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Because my next question is like, which one's worse over talking or under talking?

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Well, I have spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists.

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And I found that it's the vehicle to get what you want.

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And I'm a recovering awkward person.

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And I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time.

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But I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans.

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And because we're having less conversations, one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness.

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And I now more than ever am sending nine minute voice notes to my friends.

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But a voice note, it's the most selfish form of conversation.

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But in this age of technological change, the people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage.

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But there's a blueprint to good conversation.

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And once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier.

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For example, we devised three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers.

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And the best conversation starter was actually what was the highlight of your day.

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Because the moment we asked, how are you?

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What do you do?

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They ran out of things to talk about.

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But the worst question in the history of conversations is what's...

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But I also have a formula to immediately bypass that small talk.

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Also a secret door into charisma.

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But also there are five archetypes.

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And this is going to impact getting our promotion and finding your soulmate.

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We're going to go through one of them.

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But what are the ways to get out of the bad conversation about offending people?

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Well, we tend to focus a lot on the first impression.

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But we don't really think about the end.

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But it's all really important.

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And I discovered this framework.

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So...

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Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins.

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The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed.

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So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know.

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And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button.

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But also, it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make this show better.

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And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this one right now and hit that follow button.

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Vanessa Van Edwards.

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On page five of your new book, Conversations, you talk about how we're in a connection crisis and you say that conversations are getting harder, more awkward and less satisfying.

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At some level, I feel that too.

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My question to you is, why did you choose to write this book based on everything you could have written about, everything we've talked about before?

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Why is this book needed at this time?

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People who are investing in conversation skills right now are creating career insurance.

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We like to work with people who are great at conversation.

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We like to be with people who are great at conversation.

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We like to date people who are good at conversation.

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And in this age of tremendous technological change,

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The people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage.

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So I wrote this right now because we are slowly losing our ability to connect.

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And I think this is the last generation that will learn about conversation via human.

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I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans.

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Is it possible to be great at conversation?

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And if I become great at conversation through what we're about to talk about today, what is the advantage that you're speaking about there?

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What advantage will I experience in my life?

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For everybody listening now, what advantage will they see in their life relative to where they are now?

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Conversation is the vehicle to get what you want.

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Right, if you want a promotion,

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and you can chat with your boss where they connect with you, you're more likely to be thought of for that promotion.

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If you want to meet your soulmate, you have to have deep, connected, meaningful conversation to truly get to know each other.

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If you are lonely, finding friends that are actually fulfilling and give you the joy of conversation is going to give you a longevity boost.

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I think that the mistake that we have made is we think of conversation as extra,

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You know, we sort of put it second.

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I know leaders focus on this a lot where they're focused so much on their idea, on their technology, on their business, but they forget about the human element.

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And I think we have to start thinking about conversation almost like going to the gym.

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You know, we've focused a lot on our physical health, but our social health is critical to our emotional health.

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If we are doing conversation reps, if we can truly become good at conversation, and conversation, I think, is a skill to learn.

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I don't think you're born with it or you're not.

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I think you can learn to be good at conversation, and it's the one skill that keeps on giving.

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Do people tend to know if they're good or bad at conversation?

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Like, are there symptoms when experiences when they're not good at conversation?

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Are they aware of that?

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Yes, there is symptoms of being a bad conversationalist.

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And by the way, I should back up.

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As you know, I'm a recovering awkward person.

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And I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time.

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And I realized it was because I was asking the wrong questions.

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And I was approaching conversation the wrong way.

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The wrong way to approach conversation is trying to impress, not discover.

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If you're trying to impress people, conversation becomes performative.

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And that is so deeply unfulfilling.

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That is when small talk becomes soul-crushing.

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I have spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists.

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Master conversationalists, they live differently in the world.

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And I only know this because I wasn't one for a long time.

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They are not only more joyous, but they're also more confident, more confident, more confident,

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They're more authentically assertive.

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They get more energy from interactions, whether they're an introvert or extrovert, because their conversations are giving them energy, not taking energy.

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The symptom of bad conversation, and I hate to give someone a label of being a bad conversationalist, an exhausted conversationalist, is you dread it.

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Dread is a really important emotion.

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If you open your calendar and you see only dread or you feel only dread, there's something wrong.

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Conversation boosts us, gives us energy.

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So you feel dread in social interactions.

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You feel overwhelmed when you're in conversation.

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So if you're in conversation and you're social overthinking, you cannot turn your brain off.

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All you're worried about is what you're going to say next.

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It's actually just because you probably haven't learned the mechanics of conversation.

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There's a blueprint to good conversation.

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We're going to talk about it.

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Once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier.

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And the last symptom of bad conversation is that you leave feeling misunderstood.

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You leave feeling like I was the worst version of myself or I wasn't able to be my best self.

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I think really good conversationalists, people leave conversation with them thinking, wow, after talking to you, I feel like I understand myself better.

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And that's a very different way of thinking about, oh, I want to impress somebody.

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So how long have you spent doing the research that feeds into what we're going to talk about today and feeds into this new book?

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Okay.

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So accidentally, I've been doing research for this my whole life because I was very bad at conversation for 20 years.

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Then 20 years ago, I realized that there are these hidden blueprints behind our interactions.

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I wasn't quite sure what they were, but I could see that very good conversationalists, they were following some kind of plan.

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Okay.

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Then eight years ago, this is when the real research began, and it started with an experiment.

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I call it my speed networking experiment.

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This fundamentally changed the way I think about conversations.

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Here's what we did.

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I knew there was some secret the conversationalists had, and I was like, I'm going to find it.

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So we devised three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers.

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We brought them in these rooms, and we had cameras set up in all four corners of the room because good conversation looks different.

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Really good conversation.

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You've seen it.

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Do you ever like, you know.

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Of course.

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At a restaurant.

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Yeah, yeah.

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With my fiance.

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It's like, are they having a bad day?

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Yeah.

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So, you know, a good conversation is a lot of gestures, a lot of leaning.

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It, you know, has that high energy.

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You see a lot of vocal charisma.

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The volume goes up.

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In a bad conversation, it sort of sounds like this.

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I'm a hum.

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How are we?

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I don't know.

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I don't know.

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I don't know.

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Very low energy, like apologetic facial expressions, like low volume.

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Then I assigned these networkers six conversation starters.

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Now, I picked these conversation starters.

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I'm going to tell you what they are very carefully.

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Three of them I thought could do really well, and three of them I wasn't sure about.

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I wanted to see.

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We gave them these six conversation starters, and we asked them after each timed conversation to rate the quality of it.

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One being, that was the worst, most awkward conversation I've ever had.

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To five being, that was the best conversation I ever had.

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I want to marry this person, or I want to connect with them on LinkedIn.

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Then we took all these ratings and we ranked them.

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And there were clear winners and clear losers.

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The losers, the conversations that produced the worst connection, the most awkwardness were last choice.

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Want to guess what last choice was?

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Last.

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In terms of an opener?

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In terms of just a question.

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A typical question you ask.

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How are you?

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Number five.

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That was the fifth worst.

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Very close to the bottom.

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Sixth was?

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Something about the weather.

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What do you do?

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What do you do?

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That was the worst.

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The worst.

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Okay.

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Why?

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So these last two, how are you and what do you do?

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They're very socially scripted, right?

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The moment we ask those questions, our brain goes into autopilot.

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So there's a lack.

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It is more of a performance.

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There's a lack of excitement in the conversation.

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And they ran out of things to talk about.

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They're fact-based questions.

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And this is the trap of what we'll call level one conversation, which is you are trapped in fact.

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Where are you from?

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Got any kids?

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Married?

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The facts are dead ends, right?

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So it's very hard for someone to break out of that fact because they're stuck in that social script.

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The best conversation starter was actually a sneaker.

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I was like, interesting that this one did best by lot.

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It was, what was the highlight of your day?

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Now, what this question does psychologically sounds casual.

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First of all, it's not too deep.

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A mistake that extroverts can make is they ask too deep too quickly, right?

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They're like, what is your greatest goal in life?

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And you're like, I don't know you, right?

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So it's not too deep, but it's a subtle replacement for how are you.

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You're actually asking the other person's brain to search for optimism.

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You're literally inviting their brain to think like what was good.

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And then they think, well, highlight of my day.

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So one, we just broke autopilot.

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Thank you.

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And they're thinking for the first time.

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Their brain goes, ooh, we get to do something new.

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So they got to think of something new.

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And it was immediate.

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It wasn't like too big of a question.

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The second question was, have anything exciting you're working on?

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This is kind of a subtle replacement for what do you do, right?

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If someone likes what they do, they're going to talk about it.

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But they're going to reframe it in something exciting.

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And if someone isn't defined by what they do, they're going to share something better.

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The third question, very, very simple, was, do you have any fun plans coming up?

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These questions, the first three, are literally searching for good.

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You're inviting the other person to only think about good things and we're juicing excitement for other parts of their life.

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Now the fourth question, the middle one, almost broke my data.

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And this is where things really got interesting for me as a researcher.

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This fourth question, people either loved it or they hated it.

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They either gave it a five.

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That was like the most connective thing I felt all week or a zero.

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And a zero wasn't even an option on my scale.

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It was the question.

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What's your story?

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Now, what's your story?

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Have you ever been asked that question, by the way?

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Derivatives of that question.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So extroverts tend to default to that question because they want to go a little bit deeper.

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But actually, that is a level three question.

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It is way too advanced.

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For someone who's introverted or someone who has never framed their story that quickly, they're immediately put into cortisol.

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They're immediately put into fight or flight.

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They're like, what's my story?

236
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How can I get that to you so quickly?

237
00:11:50.471 --> 00:11:54.133
So you're by accident putting them into conversational fear.

238
00:11:54.153 --> 00:11:54.253
Yeah.

239
00:11:55.214 --> 00:11:57.276
This is when I realize there's a hierarchy.

240
00:11:58.356 --> 00:12:01.799
We have to move through our conversations with different levels, right?

241
00:12:01.819 --> 00:12:02.719
This is why we have this.

242
00:12:03.180 --> 00:12:10.685
So for anyone that can't see because you're listening on Apple Music or Spotify or whatever, we have a three-tier little stage in front of us.

243
00:12:11.485 --> 00:12:12.726
Tier one, tier two, tier three.

244
00:12:13.046 --> 00:12:14.027
What are these three tiers?

245
00:12:14.511 --> 00:12:21.337
Okay, so Dr. Dan McAdams found that conversation is actually not as fluid as we would like to think.

246
00:12:21.777 --> 00:12:27.061
That actually, when we're trying to connect with someone else, we are trying to move through three distinct levels.

247
00:12:27.922 --> 00:12:29.703
Level one is called general traits.

248
00:12:30.164 --> 00:12:34.027
This is why in those first few minutes you're basically trying to Google fact check someone.

249
00:12:34.447 --> 00:12:35.107
Where are you from?

250
00:12:35.147 --> 00:12:35.708
What do you do?

251
00:12:36.228 --> 00:12:36.568
Married.

252
00:12:36.608 --> 00:12:37.389
Where do you live in LA?

253
00:12:37.409 --> 00:12:37.569
Right.

254
00:12:37.589 --> 00:12:41.711
Like you're trying to ask all those questions because there's a sort of social hierarchy.

255
00:12:41.872 --> 00:12:48.796
Our brain processes social facts from least, least intimate to most intimate.

256
00:12:49.276 --> 00:12:55.780
So we cannot get to know someone on their deepest dreams and worries if we don't know the basic facts about them.

257
00:12:56.280 --> 00:12:59.302
So that is why we often fall into that trap of, yeah.

258
00:12:59.422 --> 00:13:00.583
those fact-based questions.

259
00:13:01.123 --> 00:13:08.228
The key here is that really good level one question is taking those facts, but adding story, but adding emotion.

260
00:13:08.789 --> 00:13:14.833
So the best way to do level one better is you're swapping out those bad questions, right?

261
00:13:14.853 --> 00:13:15.293
How are you?

262
00:13:15.313 --> 00:13:17.495
What do you do with looking for a story?

263
00:13:18.195 --> 00:13:21.117
I truly believe a fact is a stop sign.

264
00:13:21.177 --> 00:13:22.158
A story is a doorway.

265
00:13:22.438 --> 00:13:23.299
Give me an example of both.

266
00:13:23.419 --> 00:13:28.400
Okay, so one of them, we can place it on here, is what's your personal passion project, okay?

267
00:13:28.640 --> 00:13:32.861
Now, what's your personal passion project is actually a hunt for stories, right?

268
00:13:32.981 --> 00:13:33.961
And would you open with that?

269
00:13:33.981 --> 00:13:35.981
Is that what you're saying, or it doesn't really matter?

270
00:13:36.221 --> 00:13:37.682
It can come in the first few minutes.

271
00:13:37.762 --> 00:13:41.482
Now, I probably wouldn't walk into a room and be like, what's your personal passion project, Stephen?

272
00:13:42.042 --> 00:13:43.083
Right, it's a little bit much.

273
00:13:43.103 --> 00:13:47.423
We have to do our basic first impression, and we can talk about first 10 words in a little bit.

274
00:13:47.763 --> 00:13:50.744
But as an opener question, it's better than how are you.

275
00:13:51.424 --> 00:13:56.791
And I have to pause here and say, everything I'm going to share takes a little bit of conversational courage.

276
00:13:58.173 --> 00:14:00.056
It's really safe to ask, how are you?

277
00:14:00.817 --> 00:14:02.379
It's really safe to ask, what do you do?

278
00:14:02.779 --> 00:14:06.544
But if you want to be memorable, if you want to actually spark connection, those won't serve you.

279
00:14:07.205 --> 00:14:11.127
So it does take a little bit of courage to ask this, but the answers you're going to get are incredibly interesting.

280
00:14:11.407 --> 00:14:12.307
You're going to get stories.

281
00:14:12.347 --> 00:14:13.968
You're going to get a hint at values.

282
00:14:14.508 --> 00:14:18.590
If you want to know if they're married or have kids, they probably will tell you by accident.

283
00:14:19.050 --> 00:14:20.331
So it's like a hunt for stories.

284
00:14:20.611 --> 00:14:24.753
Same with, right, I mentioned this one in the study, so working on anything exciting these days.

285
00:14:25.493 --> 00:14:28.575
This is, again, one of my favorite swap questions because you're hunting for something good.

286
00:14:29.896 --> 00:14:35.945
When I think about conversation in level one, you're trying to gift someone a chemical cocktail a little bit.

287
00:14:36.786 --> 00:14:40.672
And I think in level one, these two questions are doing a lot of heavy lifting.

288
00:14:41.353 --> 00:14:43.196
They are now competing with your feed.

289
00:14:44.493 --> 00:14:46.494
I went to a PTA meeting recently.

290
00:14:46.874 --> 00:14:50.115
And those are torture, if you've ever been to one, for any parents watching.

291
00:14:50.135 --> 00:14:50.735
What's a PTA meeting?

292
00:14:50.755 --> 00:14:51.935
Oh, a parent-teacher meeting.

293
00:14:52.156 --> 00:14:52.376
Okay.

294
00:14:52.676 --> 00:14:54.796
Right, so a bunch of other parents in the room.

295
00:14:55.477 --> 00:14:59.938
And I wanted to go meet other moms because I just moved across the country to try to meet more people.

296
00:15:00.578 --> 00:15:01.419
And I was, like, excited.

297
00:15:01.459 --> 00:15:02.579
I was like, okay, I'm going to meet more moms.

298
00:15:02.599 --> 00:15:03.079
Here we go.

299
00:15:03.099 --> 00:15:04.780
And I walk in the room and everyone's...

300
00:15:05.800 --> 00:15:07.241
scrolling, everyone's on their feed.

301
00:15:07.821 --> 00:15:13.123
And I realized, wow, conversation now is not just about a way for me to make friends.

302
00:15:13.503 --> 00:15:15.564
It actually has to compete with that feed.

303
00:15:16.704 --> 00:15:22.606
I have to make my questions and my answers so dopamine worthy that they're actually going to beat that feed.

304
00:15:22.786 --> 00:15:24.187
Otherwise, they're going to go right back to their phone.

305
00:15:25.695 --> 00:15:27.617
That is why these have to do more lifting.

306
00:15:28.057 --> 00:15:32.981
Because if I want to compete with the feed, I have to produce dopamine, a little bit of excitement, a little bit of motivation.

307
00:15:33.462 --> 00:15:38.526
I also have to create what I would call, forgive me for this word, but conversational confetti.

308
00:15:40.128 --> 00:15:46.533
This is like we got to lift a little bit more in our conversations because otherwise someone's going to go right back to scrolling.

309
00:15:46.894 --> 00:15:47.975
Their brain is somewhere else.

310
00:15:48.015 --> 00:15:50.397
Either their brain is in their email list or their brain is on their feed.

311
00:15:51.543 --> 00:15:56.868
In this research, when I was studying amazing conversationalists, one of the one people I studied is Howard Stern.

312
00:15:58.029 --> 00:16:01.271
So however you feel about Howard Stern, he is a master conversationalist.

313
00:16:01.311 --> 00:16:03.573
I mean, he can carry on long, very interesting.

314
00:16:03.653 --> 00:16:06.556
He gets people to say things that I could never imagine.

315
00:16:06.596 --> 00:16:11.941
So I analyzed thousands of transcripts of his interviews, and I found one pattern.

316
00:16:12.361 --> 00:16:15.363
He does a very good job of creating information gaps.

317
00:16:16.564 --> 00:16:19.287
So he'll say, what's the weirdest thing you've ever done?

318
00:16:21.065 --> 00:16:25.546
Or he'll say, the most surprising thing that happened to me yesterday, you want to hear what it was?

319
00:16:26.566 --> 00:16:28.346
And your brain doesn't like not knowing.

320
00:16:28.546 --> 00:16:34.708
So when it hears the most surprising, the weirdest, the biggest, the worst, the most embarrassing, the brain creates this gap.

321
00:16:34.728 --> 00:16:36.768
Like it's this information gap where the brain is like, I have to know.

322
00:16:37.288 --> 00:16:38.248
What is the weirdest thing?

323
00:16:38.828 --> 00:16:43.109
So also what happens with these kinds of questions is we're creating these little information gaps.

324
00:16:43.249 --> 00:16:46.750
And actually saying and using in conversation these phrases is...

325
00:16:47.750 --> 00:16:50.991
is a way that we can create more intrigue and interest.

326
00:16:51.091 --> 00:16:53.171
And I know that sounds like, what?

327
00:16:53.911 --> 00:16:54.512
But think about this.

328
00:16:54.872 --> 00:17:01.853
If something crazy happened to you yesterday and you walk into dinner and you're like, guys, the craziest thing happened to me yesterday, everyone's like, phone's down.

329
00:17:03.074 --> 00:17:03.214
Right?

330
00:17:03.394 --> 00:17:04.474
Now, I couldn't say something boring.

331
00:17:04.494 --> 00:17:05.734
I couldn't be like, I was stuck in traffic.

332
00:17:05.814 --> 00:17:06.294
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

333
00:17:06.314 --> 00:17:07.175
Unless you want to be funny.

334
00:17:07.695 --> 00:17:13.876
But I think that looking for opportunities to create that little bit of conversational confetti, they come up with questions like this.

335
00:17:13.896 --> 00:17:15.777
And this is the last one.

336
00:17:17.897 --> 00:17:19.139
Have any fun plans coming up?

337
00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:33.297
Now, the reason why this one is important, and I agonized over this third question because there's three questions for each level, is have any fun plans coming up is a subtle way to bring up potential shared future.

338
00:17:34.338 --> 00:17:42.185
So psychologically speaking, we bond with someone when we feel like we could do something fun with them or they're doing something fun that I would also like to do.

339
00:17:42.985 --> 00:17:49.931
I think that part of these questions is being known for asking better questions, like being known for searching or hunting for excitement.

340
00:17:49.971 --> 00:17:56.896
Because what will happen is with people who know you at work or your work friends or outside of work friends is they'll bring these things to you.

341
00:17:57.337 --> 00:17:59.078
They know that you're going to ask out personal passions.

342
00:17:59.138 --> 00:18:01.981
So next time you get to say, hey, last time we were talking –

343
00:18:02.521 --> 00:18:04.182
You mentioned XYZ.

344
00:18:04.482 --> 00:18:05.142
How's that going?

345
00:18:05.742 --> 00:18:07.703
So they also become your callbacks.

346
00:18:08.343 --> 00:18:10.344
They make conversation easier later.

347
00:18:11.024 --> 00:18:14.186
Everybody's starting from a remarkably different place here, aren't they?

348
00:18:14.666 --> 00:18:17.147
In terms of both skill, but also like will.

349
00:18:17.907 --> 00:18:19.389
Do you know what I mean?

350
00:18:19.569 --> 00:18:20.810
And energy and willing to do it.

351
00:18:20.830 --> 00:18:25.654
I think there'll be a lot of, one might say introverts listening right now, but just think, what's the fucking point?

352
00:18:25.674 --> 00:18:27.736
Like, you know, I don't like people anyway.

353
00:18:27.816 --> 00:18:28.997
And it's so much energy.

354
00:18:29.017 --> 00:18:31.579
And I've got to ask these questions and pretend to be interested.

355
00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:32.460
This is going to drain me.

356
00:18:32.560 --> 00:18:33.000
Oh, my gosh.

357
00:18:33.601 --> 00:18:34.101
I agree.

358
00:18:34.381 --> 00:18:36.043
And two things can be true.

359
00:18:37.233 --> 00:18:40.755
It's very exhausting in the sense of you're trying, right?

360
00:18:40.775 --> 00:18:45.798
Like we're putting energy into conversation, but it's also exhausting to have really shallow small talk.

361
00:18:46.978 --> 00:18:52.881
I find it exhausting to stand at an event or be schmoozing with people backstage and be talking about nothing.

362
00:18:53.482 --> 00:19:00.125
Do you want to have very boring, predictable conversation where you're less memorable and they're less memorable and you're just waiting until you can get home to Netflix?

363
00:19:00.545 --> 00:19:01.166
That's one hard.

364
00:19:02.100 --> 00:19:03.021
That's not what I would choose.

365
00:19:04.142 --> 00:19:07.724
Or do we choose the heart of, I'm going to break a script, right?

366
00:19:07.744 --> 00:19:09.706
I'm going to try to do level one better.

367
00:19:09.726 --> 00:19:11.887
I'm going to try to, you know, trigger a little bit of dopamine.

368
00:19:11.907 --> 00:19:16.871
I'm going to try to learn something that I didn't know before, which is going to maybe, just maybe, bring joy.

369
00:19:17.471 --> 00:19:22.015
If you get a really great answer, by the way, there's two sides of conversation, talking and asking.

370
00:19:23.035 --> 00:19:28.316
I think even for those introverts, they have really, really big goals in their life that they care about.

371
00:19:28.736 --> 00:19:40.198
And so I think connecting this level one stuff to the highest goals is like critical for the behavior to occur and for it to like net out in the incentive equation as being worthwhile.

372
00:19:40.378 --> 00:19:40.558
Yes.

373
00:19:40.638 --> 00:19:52.040
Because if you can tell me how asking, have any fun plans coming up is going to help me become a better CEO or founder or whoever I want to be, father, mom, daughter, whatever, then I'm in.

374
00:19:52.580 --> 00:19:52.820
Yes.

375
00:19:53.260 --> 00:19:55.962
Okay, so let's talk about founders and CEOs specifically.

376
00:19:56.543 --> 00:20:00.485
There is a mistaken belief, and I work with a lot of companies, right, with a lot of founders.

377
00:20:01.146 --> 00:20:04.007
They believe that conversation is anti-productive.

378
00:20:05.148 --> 00:20:09.371
They worry that, oh, I don't know if I want my employees to talk a lot.

379
00:20:09.511 --> 00:20:11.752
You know, I can't waste time on small talk.

380
00:20:13.353 --> 00:20:14.654
The research shows the opposite.

381
00:20:14.974 --> 00:20:20.458
And also, logically, if you think this through, connected people collaborate better.

382
00:20:22.401 --> 00:20:25.603
engaged employees work better together.

383
00:20:26.464 --> 00:20:28.685
We are more productive when we feel good.

384
00:20:28.806 --> 00:20:31.708
And in fact, the key word here is friction.

385
00:20:32.808 --> 00:20:46.838
When you have a company that has a lot of communication friction, you have employees who doubt themselves, you don't have psychological safety, they have a really hard time brainstorming, you have people who withhold information, you have more information silos.

386
00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:50.241
Communication friction costs companies money.

387
00:20:51.201 --> 00:20:55.743
And so if you have a community of employees who have very easy level one, they don't need to get to level three.

388
00:20:56.064 --> 00:20:57.784
Like you don't need to get to level three with everyone in your company.

389
00:20:57.965 --> 00:20:59.485
You don't need to get to level three with your Uber driver.

390
00:21:00.026 --> 00:21:06.469
But if you have really easy small talk, easy banter where someone knows, oh, yeah, I know exactly what their personal passion project is.

391
00:21:06.869 --> 00:21:07.549
I know who they are.

392
00:21:07.609 --> 00:21:09.210
I know what fun plans they have coming up.

393
00:21:09.630 --> 00:21:14.433
The first five minutes of your meeting becomes not only frictionless but actually pleasurable.

394
00:21:14.853 --> 00:21:15.734
People show up on time.

395
00:21:16.654 --> 00:21:17.555
People are more productive.

396
00:21:18.135 --> 00:21:21.578
People want to be there because they actually want to connect and collaborate with her.

397
00:21:21.638 --> 00:21:23.339
And this is remote or in person, right?

398
00:21:23.659 --> 00:21:26.802
Because they know they have these very loose ties.

399
00:21:26.942 --> 00:21:28.923
And loose ties actually make us more productive.

400
00:21:29.484 --> 00:21:31.805
And so we are looking for frictionless communication.

401
00:21:31.825 --> 00:21:33.046
And that happens at level one.

402
00:21:33.066 --> 00:21:36.429
In fact, work conversations should be really ideal level ones.

403
00:21:36.809 --> 00:21:41.213
Is this in part also the fastest way to get to connection?

404
00:21:41.794 --> 00:21:41.994
Yes.

405
00:21:42.174 --> 00:21:45.797
Because these CEOs or founders or, you know, busy people generally are very time poor.

406
00:21:45.997 --> 00:21:46.378
For sure.

407
00:21:46.498 --> 00:21:49.621
So they don't have, you know, 30 minutes to move their way to connection.

408
00:21:49.681 --> 00:21:50.782
But are you saying that?

409
00:21:50.802 --> 00:21:51.723
These are shortcuts.

410
00:21:51.843 --> 00:21:52.083
Okay.

411
00:21:52.263 --> 00:21:52.423
Right.

412
00:21:52.443 --> 00:21:56.766
So like what's it's way worse for a CEO to be like, shoot, I've been told I better be warmer.

413
00:21:56.786 --> 00:22:03.150
I have a lot of like most of my students are brilliant, very talented, very smart, but a little awkward and want to get it done.

414
00:22:03.350 --> 00:22:03.470
Right.

415
00:22:03.490 --> 00:22:05.251
They're much more focused on the confidence and the warmth.

416
00:22:05.651 --> 00:22:08.293
So they try to do warmth because they feel like they should.

417
00:22:08.853 --> 00:22:10.994
And they're like, how are those kids?

418
00:22:12.435 --> 00:22:13.276
And then it's like a social script.

419
00:22:13.396 --> 00:22:13.696
Good.

420
00:22:14.177 --> 00:22:15.078
Or how are you?

421
00:22:15.919 --> 00:22:16.519
Good, busy.

422
00:22:16.760 --> 00:22:17.340
Busy, but good.

423
00:22:17.360 --> 00:22:18.622
And they're like, it's not working.

424
00:22:19.262 --> 00:22:20.824
Ah, it was anti-productive.

425
00:22:21.104 --> 00:22:22.566
No, I'd rather you skip ahead.

426
00:22:22.966 --> 00:22:24.628
Make this level quick and good, right?

427
00:22:24.648 --> 00:22:32.716
So like the team intervention that I encourage every virtual or in-person team to do is once a week at the start of a meeting, start with tell me something good.

428
00:22:33.377 --> 00:22:33.998
Very, very quickly.

429
00:22:34.058 --> 00:22:36.701
Everyone goes around very quickly and they share one win or something good.

430
00:22:37.101 --> 00:22:37.622
It can be small.

431
00:22:37.642 --> 00:22:38.182
It can be big.

432
00:22:38.903 --> 00:22:41.986
That can take less than three minutes, less than five minutes, depending on how big your team is.

433
00:22:42.006 --> 00:22:44.048
We do it on our Tuesday team calls at my team.

434
00:22:44.549 --> 00:22:49.874
What it does is you've just created a safe, very contained space for a good level one.

435
00:22:50.395 --> 00:22:51.036
It's only good.

436
00:22:51.096 --> 00:22:53.358
So otherwise, people will accidentally complain, right?

437
00:22:53.378 --> 00:22:55.680
They'll be like, oh, the weather, oh, traffic, right?

438
00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:55.881
Right.

439
00:22:56.281 --> 00:22:58.383
But you're putting a frame around it that's good.

440
00:22:58.623 --> 00:22:59.704
You're time boxing it, right?

441
00:22:59.724 --> 00:23:00.765
Everyone goes around really quickly.

442
00:23:01.105 --> 00:23:03.707
But you're very quickly creating these team connections.

443
00:23:03.768 --> 00:23:10.573
So creating time in your meetings, but also in your culture to ask slightly better questions.

444
00:23:11.314 --> 00:23:16.338
All of these level one things have one thing in common, which is they provoke a positive search and response.

445
00:23:16.679 --> 00:23:16.859
Yes.

446
00:23:17.379 --> 00:23:18.760
So that's really the crux of level one.

447
00:23:18.780 --> 00:23:21.343
It's just a question that's producing a positive response.

448
00:23:21.363 --> 00:23:23.885
Sorry, it's not always positive.

449
00:23:23.905 --> 00:23:24.065
Right.

450
00:23:25.492 --> 00:23:29.354
I do believe in toxic positivity and toxic positivity can kill a conversational vibe very quickly.

451
00:23:29.374 --> 00:23:33.336
What we're actually looking for is emotion and story.

452
00:23:33.756 --> 00:23:33.976
Okay.

453
00:23:34.336 --> 00:23:34.516
Right.

454
00:23:34.596 --> 00:23:38.018
So I might say, and by the way, my introverts, I love my introverts.

455
00:23:38.398 --> 00:23:40.499
They always say, well, what if someone says they don't?

456
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.641
that you ask them, what's your personal passion project?

457
00:23:43.721 --> 00:23:45.522
And they say, I don't have one.

458
00:23:46.143 --> 00:23:46.743
Well, great.

459
00:23:47.103 --> 00:23:48.224
What an opportunity.

460
00:23:49.125 --> 00:23:55.509
If someone doesn't have a personal passion project or they're going through a hard time, they're having a bad day, you have an opportunity to connect even better.

461
00:23:56.290 --> 00:23:57.931
So sometimes it doesn't have to be positive.

462
00:23:57.951 --> 00:24:00.133
You're looking for any kind of real emotion.

463
00:24:00.473 --> 00:24:01.594
So then someone says, you know what?

464
00:24:02.833 --> 00:24:07.895
I've been really going through a hard time and, you know, I haven't had much energy to work on personal fashion these days.

465
00:24:08.735 --> 00:24:09.656
And then you have the choice.

466
00:24:10.016 --> 00:24:11.937
You can say, wow, is there anything I can do to help?

467
00:24:12.577 --> 00:24:13.697
Or you can say, do you want to talk about it?

468
00:24:14.458 --> 00:24:16.138
So it's not always positive.

469
00:24:16.238 --> 00:24:19.780
It's looking for authentic emotions and ideally story.

470
00:24:20.040 --> 00:24:25.462
And this is another one of the other master conversationalists I study who is excellent at level one is Jerry Seinfeld.

471
00:24:26.458 --> 00:24:29.020
So Jerry Seinfeld has a little conversational trick.

472
00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:38.486
This is in level one of the book, which is he often meets people after his event, and they're so starstruck by him that they don't know what to say, and conversation is really awkward.

473
00:24:38.546 --> 00:24:39.386
He has a little awkward to meet.

474
00:24:39.706 --> 00:24:46.030
He's developed a trick, and this works really well for CEOs and introverts, which is ask a numbers-based question.

475
00:24:47.671 --> 00:24:49.733
So instead of, how are you?

476
00:24:49.753 --> 00:24:50.353
Where do you live?

477
00:24:50.854 --> 00:24:52.535
So how long have you two been together?

478
00:24:52.555 --> 00:24:52.655
Yeah.

479
00:24:53.610 --> 00:24:57.351
And then if it's 38 years, you say, oh, what's been the highlight of your 38 years?

480
00:24:57.851 --> 00:25:00.072
If it's really short, oh, you're in the honeymoon phase.

481
00:25:00.092 --> 00:25:00.852
What's the best part?

482
00:25:01.592 --> 00:25:03.273
So it's a numbers question.

483
00:25:03.293 --> 00:25:06.814
And this works really well for introverts as well is because it's fact-based.

484
00:25:06.934 --> 00:25:08.154
So it's like an opener.

485
00:25:08.514 --> 00:25:10.915
And then usually from there, it's a jumping off point to a story.

486
00:25:11.195 --> 00:25:13.216
So it's not that level one should always be positive.

487
00:25:13.236 --> 00:25:14.516
That's great if it can be.

488
00:25:15.476 --> 00:25:20.378
But practically speaking, it actually more is that there's a small emotion or a small story.

489
00:25:21.065 --> 00:25:26.413
Okay, so the other day I was in Las Vegas and I was doing this sort of like step and repeat meet and greet thing after the event.

490
00:25:26.914 --> 00:25:30.640
And people come up and they're kind of ushering them through very quickly.

491
00:25:30.760 --> 00:25:31.802
So I always want to...

492
00:25:32.645 --> 00:25:36.606
you know, say something to learn a little bit about a person in that time, what would you recommend?

493
00:25:36.706 --> 00:25:39.307
And this might be applicable for networking generally, but what would you recommend?

494
00:25:39.547 --> 00:25:39.767
Okay.

495
00:25:39.787 --> 00:25:44.248
So I always, whenever after speaking about book signing, I say, what was your favorite part or what did you learn the most?

496
00:25:45.008 --> 00:25:48.009
So I immediately ask a question that I want them to take home with them.

497
00:25:48.189 --> 00:25:50.170
And that's actually level two, which we can, we can skip it.

498
00:25:50.190 --> 00:25:55.771
We're not going to skip too far ahead, but what have you always wanted to learn or what are you learning is actually going to level two.

499
00:25:55.831 --> 00:25:58.952
So you can ask it, especially if someone's just spent an hour listening to you,

500
00:25:59.152 --> 00:26:00.773
Wait, what's the difference between level one and level two?

501
00:26:00.793 --> 00:26:00.993
Okay.

502
00:26:01.053 --> 00:26:01.373
Oh, sorry.

503
00:26:01.393 --> 00:26:02.033
Yes, we skipped ahead.

504
00:26:02.053 --> 00:26:02.213
Okay.

505
00:26:02.233 --> 00:26:03.654
So we'll put a pin in this.

506
00:26:03.674 --> 00:26:09.096
One of the things I want to say about that question is I read this framework.

507
00:26:09.336 --> 00:26:12.237
I read about Dan McAdams' framework and I was doing this conversation research.

508
00:26:12.837 --> 00:26:15.018
And then I got invited to a party.

509
00:26:16.368 --> 00:26:17.889
One of the weirdest parties I've ever been invited to.

510
00:26:18.389 --> 00:26:21.870
And I get in and they tell me to take off my shoes.

511
00:26:22.090 --> 00:26:22.731
So I'm committed.

512
00:26:23.071 --> 00:26:23.211
Right?

513
00:26:23.231 --> 00:26:23.811
I can't leave.

514
00:26:24.011 --> 00:26:24.211
Yeah?

515
00:26:24.251 --> 00:26:25.372
And then they go, guess what?

516
00:26:25.732 --> 00:26:27.233
We have a rule for this party.

517
00:26:27.693 --> 00:26:28.453
I'm like, what?

518
00:26:28.953 --> 00:26:31.334
They're like, you cannot talk about what you do.

519
00:26:32.535 --> 00:26:35.756
Now, this was a party of, I think, very other successful people.

520
00:26:35.836 --> 00:26:37.377
And all of us are like, what?

521
00:26:38.431 --> 00:26:41.335
Because I don't know about you, but I'm pretty defined by what I do.

522
00:26:41.395 --> 00:26:41.855
I talk about it.

523
00:26:41.875 --> 00:26:42.396
I love it.

524
00:26:43.177 --> 00:26:47.382
So I start to panic because I'm like, what do you even talk about if you don't talk about that?

525
00:26:47.563 --> 00:26:49.625
Because so many of our conversations veer into work.

526
00:26:50.366 --> 00:26:54.211
And so I had to, one, my brain was flipped off autopilot immediately.

527
00:26:54.231 --> 00:26:54.311
And,

528
00:26:55.252 --> 00:26:57.212
And I had to get more creative with my questions.

529
00:26:57.913 --> 00:27:01.593
And I had to also think that I was like, I'm just going to discover things about them.

530
00:27:01.613 --> 00:27:03.854
I'm going to try to figure out what they do by not asking.

531
00:27:04.554 --> 00:27:10.755
And that was an aha moment of we should treat level one, these three bottom questions, as a treasure hunt.

532
00:27:11.795 --> 00:27:17.536
That if you're going into it looking for some kind of conversational gold, your questions have much different intention.

533
00:27:17.936 --> 00:27:22.597
And especially what I ended up asking was, what do you talk about when you don't talk about work?

534
00:27:24.442 --> 00:27:27.124
which was sort of this freedom.

535
00:27:27.285 --> 00:27:34.871
It gave us this freedom in conversation where I want to give everyone permission that really good conversation does not have to stick to the same old boring topics.

536
00:27:34.911 --> 00:27:36.052
It does not have to be what you do.

537
00:27:36.593 --> 00:27:40.917
It can be about anything that is engaging you or exciting you in that moment.

538
00:27:41.497 --> 00:27:42.158
That is level one.

539
00:27:42.518 --> 00:27:43.059
Level two.

540
00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:45.020
So we have general traits.

541
00:27:46.008 --> 00:27:46.969
We must start there.

542
00:27:47.129 --> 00:27:49.011
We cannot skip too quickly to level two.

543
00:27:49.711 --> 00:27:51.533
Level two is called personal concerns.

544
00:27:52.133 --> 00:27:54.735
Personal concerns is where we begin to connect deeply.

545
00:27:55.036 --> 00:28:00.140
This is our motivations, our goals, our values, our worries.

546
00:28:00.602 --> 00:28:04.224
And I'm assuming you do level two once you've got past level one connection.

547
00:28:04.364 --> 00:28:04.864
Exactly.

548
00:28:04.884 --> 00:28:06.785
So this is us going deeper with the person.

549
00:28:06.946 --> 00:28:07.326
Exactly.

550
00:28:07.586 --> 00:28:09.047
Or leveling up as you wish.

551
00:28:09.207 --> 00:28:09.367
Right.

552
00:28:09.447 --> 00:28:09.827
As you wish.

553
00:28:10.748 --> 00:28:13.189
So the mistake traps people make is they skip level one.

554
00:28:13.329 --> 00:28:15.810
They try to go too deep quickly and people feel like it's invasive.

555
00:28:16.111 --> 00:28:16.251
Right.

556
00:28:16.291 --> 00:28:19.352
Especially when you're like, whoa, slow down or can feel like an interrogation.

557
00:28:19.713 --> 00:28:22.534
So we must know those basics first as long as we do them better.

558
00:28:22.734 --> 00:28:23.715
We don't do them in autopilot way.

559
00:28:24.255 --> 00:28:26.676
Level two is when you start to understand what motivates someone.

560
00:28:26.916 --> 00:28:35.580
The kind of mental trick that I use is you know you're on level two with someone if you know what gets them up in the morning, like what goal is driving them all day.

561
00:28:35.961 --> 00:28:38.642
But you also know what keeps them up at night, what worries them.

562
00:28:39.402 --> 00:28:45.765
I encourage people as they're reading, like think of the five people you interact with most and place them on a level.

563
00:28:46.526 --> 00:28:48.387
Like do you only know the basic facts about them?

564
00:28:49.027 --> 00:28:50.688
Are you all the way at level three, which we're going to get to?

565
00:28:51.068 --> 00:28:52.789
It's sometimes helpful you'll notice patterns.

566
00:28:53.669 --> 00:28:55.450
Like, I don't know about you, but I love level two.

567
00:28:56.110 --> 00:28:58.151
Like, I want to get through level one as quickly as possible.

568
00:28:58.611 --> 00:29:00.052
I want to get to your motivations.

569
00:29:00.072 --> 00:29:01.473
I want to get to your secret side hustle.

570
00:29:01.493 --> 00:29:02.754
I want to get to your dreams and passions.

571
00:29:03.074 --> 00:29:04.214
I want to know what keeps you up at night.

572
00:29:04.694 --> 00:29:05.975
But I can sometimes jump too fast.

573
00:29:07.196 --> 00:29:10.557
Level two is about making someone feel heard and understood.

574
00:29:11.738 --> 00:29:13.799
And this is different than discovering treasure.

575
00:29:14.219 --> 00:29:17.661
And the biggest skill that we can do in level two is what I call dream building.

576
00:29:19.104 --> 00:29:26.190
So dream building is everyone has like a secret desire, a secret dream, a secret side hustle, a secret passion.

577
00:29:26.770 --> 00:29:28.612
Can you be there and help them uncover it?

578
00:29:29.132 --> 00:29:30.193
That's the goal of level two.

579
00:29:31.355 --> 00:29:33.656
So give me an example of dream building.

580
00:29:33.756 --> 00:29:34.036
Okay.

581
00:29:34.056 --> 00:29:37.677
So before we started, I said to you, I have a new goal, right?

582
00:29:37.697 --> 00:29:39.378
Like I'm pitching a TV show.

583
00:29:39.618 --> 00:29:40.978
That's like my secret side hustle.

584
00:29:41.178 --> 00:29:42.138
That's level two for me.

585
00:29:42.158 --> 00:29:44.479
It's something that I've been working on secretly and quietly.

586
00:29:44.539 --> 00:29:47.240
And if we were at lunch, I would have told you all about it.

587
00:29:47.260 --> 00:29:48.060
We would double clicked on it.

588
00:29:48.080 --> 00:29:49.221
So like that's an example of one.

589
00:29:49.721 --> 00:29:52.922
Another example to think about is what does someone daydream about?

590
00:29:53.462 --> 00:29:53.582
Right.

591
00:29:53.602 --> 00:29:56.284
Like what is what is occupying their mind in a good way?

592
00:29:56.844 --> 00:30:02.227
The other way that I a framework that I give for folks is a pet or pest project.

593
00:30:03.348 --> 00:30:06.050
So what is someone's pet project like a pet at home?

594
00:30:06.250 --> 00:30:07.330
You kind of think about it.

595
00:30:07.370 --> 00:30:08.091
You dream about it.

596
00:30:08.131 --> 00:30:08.951
You hope about it.

597
00:30:08.991 --> 00:30:11.593
Like what is someone hoping to achieve or find or do?

598
00:30:11.613 --> 00:30:14.775
And what is their pest project like a pest in the attic?

599
00:30:15.395 --> 00:30:16.155
It worries you.

600
00:30:16.756 --> 00:30:19.437
You wonder, like, how can I get rid of that pest?

601
00:30:20.037 --> 00:30:21.838
How can I eradicate it?

602
00:30:22.138 --> 00:30:23.999
And they want help with it, but they're too afraid to ask.

603
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:26.360
Pest projects have a lot of shame.

604
00:30:27.760 --> 00:30:31.502
On level two, people have to feel safe enough to expose what they feel shame about.

605
00:30:32.502 --> 00:30:35.264
But pet projects, the things they love, have a lot of pride.

606
00:30:35.964 --> 00:30:40.646
And so you're trying to figure out in conversation, could you let someone feel safe enough to share either one?

607
00:30:41.282 --> 00:30:44.089
And are there questions that evoke dream building?

608
00:30:44.109 --> 00:30:44.369
Yes.

609
00:30:44.590 --> 00:30:49.541
Okay, so what have you always wanted to learn is an interesting question because it triggers growth mindset.

610
00:30:50.445 --> 00:30:50.645
right?

611
00:30:51.246 --> 00:30:57.990
So growth mindset is when someone believes they can change themselves, change who they are, change their trajectory, learn something new.

612
00:30:58.430 --> 00:31:02.433
So we like this question because you're asking, are you willing to grow with me?

613
00:31:02.453 --> 00:31:03.594
What have you always wanted to learn?

614
00:31:04.475 --> 00:31:07.116
The other easy one is, what is your biggest goal right now?

615
00:31:07.357 --> 00:31:09.958
So what is your biggest goal right now is a great question.

616
00:31:09.978 --> 00:31:11.319
And you can also time anchor it.

617
00:31:11.780 --> 00:31:14.942
Anytime someone has a birthday, you can ask, what's your big goal this year?

618
00:31:17.808 --> 00:31:21.010
You're like leveling them up in a safe way because they're talking about their birthday.

619
00:31:21.051 --> 00:31:25.254
Around New Year's, January and December, I ask everyone I know, what's your biggest goal right now?

620
00:31:25.894 --> 00:31:28.156
New quarter, new performance review.

621
00:31:28.576 --> 00:31:32.539
When we talk about goals, it activates a part of our brain that triggers dopamine.

622
00:31:33.139 --> 00:31:37.403
When we think about our future self, it activates a part of ourselves that wants to get motivated.

623
00:31:37.723 --> 00:31:40.745
And so level two is also giving someone motivation.

624
00:31:40.865 --> 00:31:44.328
That in conversation, they're actually discovering an aspect of themselves.

625
00:31:44.628 --> 00:31:47.110
They're tapping into their own resource for motivation.

626
00:31:47.130 --> 00:31:47.530
Right?

627
00:31:47.658 --> 00:31:49.840
It gives them permission to dream a little bit.

628
00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:54.624
Yeah, and you're giving them the motivation that they already have, but you're bringing it into the conversation.

629
00:31:55.345 --> 00:32:08.056
I think recently we are so into intrapersonal, like a lot of what you see on social media right now is mindset and mantra and affirmation and productivity.

630
00:32:08.176 --> 00:32:09.477
And I love all of those things.

631
00:32:10.137 --> 00:32:10.338
But...

632
00:32:10.958 --> 00:32:18.440
That means that people are actually using all that excitement alone when they're journaling or when they're meditating or when they're working on their to-do list.

633
00:32:18.980 --> 00:32:23.221
We have forgotten, I've noticed, to bring those goals into conversation.

634
00:32:23.241 --> 00:32:24.381
We're almost like embarrassed.

635
00:32:24.401 --> 00:32:31.103
I don't know if you've noticed this, but it's almost like people are like embarrassed to talk about their secret side hustle or they're embarrassed to talk about their secret passion.

636
00:32:31.903 --> 00:32:38.733
If we give someone permission to bring in what they have been motivated about privately into conversation, you get to be an ally.

637
00:32:38.753 --> 00:32:42.158
What if you're met with a dead end when you ask these kind of level two questions?

638
00:32:42.178 --> 00:32:43.059
Well, then you get to answer.

639
00:32:43.815 --> 00:32:46.617
Because some people haven't quite figured out what their biggest goal is.

640
00:32:46.837 --> 00:32:47.258
Absolutely.

641
00:32:47.278 --> 00:32:50.280
Especially also sometimes introverts in conversation.

642
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:54.463
I've asked these questions to thousands of people and all different kinds of things happen when I do that.

643
00:32:55.023 --> 00:32:57.485
Introverts also need more time to process.

644
00:32:58.366 --> 00:33:00.767
So you might ask them, you know, what are you learning right now?

645
00:33:00.787 --> 00:33:01.448
What's your biggest goal?

646
00:33:01.588 --> 00:33:03.630
And they might in the moment not know.

647
00:33:03.710 --> 00:33:05.291
They just need a little bit of time to process.

648
00:33:05.891 --> 00:33:09.874
And so two things can happen is if they don't have it yet, that's okay.

649
00:33:10.455 --> 00:33:12.016
You also have opportunity to share.

650
00:33:12.631 --> 00:33:18.597
But what if I ask, I'm thinking because, you know, I know a lot of taxi drivers listen to this podcast because I get in taxis and we talk about it.

651
00:33:18.617 --> 00:33:19.117
Oh, yay!

652
00:33:19.137 --> 00:33:19.418
I love it.

653
00:33:19.438 --> 00:33:22.280
And taxi drivers, you know, they're conversationalists.

654
00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:22.701
They are.

655
00:33:22.721 --> 00:33:23.802
Often very good ones.

656
00:33:24.062 --> 00:33:28.606
But sometimes I guess a taxi driver might be faced with the scenario where the person in the backseat doesn't want to talk.

657
00:33:29.507 --> 00:33:34.512
And they might hit them with one of these, you know, level ones and then the level twos and they're just getting brick walls.

658
00:33:34.812 --> 00:33:35.773
Then I would respect that.

659
00:33:36.234 --> 00:33:36.374
Right.

660
00:33:36.394 --> 00:33:37.695
If someone doesn't want to talk to you.

661
00:33:37.715 --> 00:33:38.496
Do you just back out?

662
00:33:38.676 --> 00:33:39.156
Yeah.

663
00:33:39.437 --> 00:33:39.677
Okay.

664
00:33:39.777 --> 00:33:42.400
Because then they're going through their own thing.

665
00:33:42.500 --> 00:33:42.660
Right.

666
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:47.084
Like if you have to have also courage to be disliked.

667
00:33:47.665 --> 00:33:47.885
Mm hmm.

668
00:33:48.463 --> 00:33:48.643
Right?

669
00:33:48.663 --> 00:33:51.444
Like you can try your best in conversation.

670
00:33:51.464 --> 00:33:52.785
You can bring the best questions.

671
00:33:53.085 --> 00:33:58.928
But if someone is not your person or they are not ready to connect, why would you waste your energy on that?

672
00:33:59.508 --> 00:34:01.549
So I also think that asking some of these are like bids.

673
00:34:01.929 --> 00:34:03.970
It's like a bid to see like, can we do this?

674
00:34:04.190 --> 00:34:04.990
You want to banter with me?

675
00:34:05.010 --> 00:34:05.791
Should we have level one?

676
00:34:05.811 --> 00:34:06.971
Should we even dip into level two?

677
00:34:07.211 --> 00:34:07.471
Great.

678
00:34:07.531 --> 00:34:08.172
If not, cool.

679
00:34:08.192 --> 00:34:09.472
They're not your person or it's not their day.

680
00:34:09.492 --> 00:34:10.953
So if they don't take the bait.

681
00:34:11.325 --> 00:34:12.005
It's okay.

682
00:34:12.145 --> 00:34:13.006
Okay.

683
00:34:13.226 --> 00:34:16.047
The taxidermist usually asks me, got anything exciting today?

684
00:34:16.067 --> 00:34:17.848
Are we going anywhere exciting?

685
00:34:18.288 --> 00:34:18.589
Great.

686
00:34:18.689 --> 00:34:19.869
That's a great swap for level one.

687
00:34:19.889 --> 00:34:23.851
I should say, by the way, these questions are suggestions.

688
00:34:24.551 --> 00:34:28.673
If you can modify them to fit what you are doing, even better.

689
00:34:28.713 --> 00:34:32.175
Like, for example, you and I are in book signings or we are meeting people after speaking events.

690
00:34:32.755 --> 00:34:37.278
It makes sense for us to modify the learning or goal question to say, hey, what did you learn?

691
00:34:38.138 --> 00:34:39.219
Or did you learn anything new?

692
00:34:39.959 --> 00:34:40.959
Or what was your favorite part?

693
00:34:41.100 --> 00:34:41.240
Right?

694
00:34:41.260 --> 00:34:42.200
We're modifying that for us.

695
00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:44.781
A tax driver is going to modify it for, are we heading anywhere exciting?

696
00:34:46.102 --> 00:34:46.902
Do anything exciting today?

697
00:34:47.323 --> 00:34:50.124
So, like, these are not prescriptions, right?

698
00:34:50.204 --> 00:34:51.905
They are guidelines to try to...

699
00:34:53.363 --> 00:34:54.544
make the research applicable.

700
00:34:54.704 --> 00:35:01.728
You know, I've spent most of my career looking at research, reading academic studies, and some of them are 30 pages of jargon with one nugget.

701
00:35:02.688 --> 00:35:06.871
And Dan McAdams' research is so incredible, but when I first read it, I did not know how to use it.

702
00:35:07.491 --> 00:35:10.773
I was like, general traits, personal concerns, like level one, I wasn't sure.

703
00:35:11.153 --> 00:35:18.577
So a lot of these are just ways to activate the behavioral research, the guideline that's driving all of our interactions, but you get to have flexibility with it as it works for you.

704
00:35:19.037 --> 00:35:21.359
The goal in level one, treasure hunt.

705
00:35:21.379 --> 00:35:22.079
Yeah.

706
00:35:22.179 --> 00:35:26.002
put someone at ease, ask them about what they love, harvest story.

707
00:35:26.642 --> 00:35:32.927
The goal of level two is to give someone permission to share a dream, a secret desire or a secret worry.

708
00:35:32.947 --> 00:35:35.849
And level three, we get to get to in a little bit when you're ready.

709
00:35:35.869 --> 00:35:37.270
Oh, we have one more level three.

710
00:35:37.310 --> 00:35:37.590
Hold on.

711
00:35:37.610 --> 00:35:38.130
Level two question.

712
00:35:38.491 --> 00:35:42.033
On these questions, do you have to actually care about the answer?

713
00:35:42.413 --> 00:35:48.498
Do you have to authentically care about what their biggest goal is right now or what their personal passion project is?

714
00:35:48.538 --> 00:35:49.979
Does it matter if you don't actually care?

715
00:35:49.999 --> 00:35:50.159
Yeah.

716
00:35:51.192 --> 00:35:55.155
There have been times in conversation where I'm not sure if I care yet.

717
00:35:56.656 --> 00:35:59.218
So I would say, you don't care yet.

718
00:36:00.381 --> 00:36:07.686
What if you ask the question and you're not sure, you're not bought in yet, but then you hear an answer that deeply resonates with you or you deeply care about?

719
00:36:08.307 --> 00:36:11.870
I think we don't know always if we're going to care about someone because we've just met them.

720
00:36:12.550 --> 00:36:13.351
But maybe you will.

721
00:36:14.071 --> 00:36:16.013
You never know who's going to be your next best friend.

722
00:36:16.933 --> 00:36:20.136
You never know when you're going to hear an aha moment that's going to change your business.

723
00:36:20.476 --> 00:36:27.962
So many of the pivot points in my business have been from random conversations where I happen to ask the right question and someone gives me a brilliant piece of advice.

724
00:36:28.142 --> 00:36:29.703
So is it okay to pretend to care?

725
00:36:31.208 --> 00:36:33.229
If you're asking the question, you care enough to try.

726
00:36:35.050 --> 00:36:35.190
Right?

727
00:36:35.210 --> 00:36:41.793
If you're listening to this podcast, you already care enough to be like, I know I should.

728
00:36:41.813 --> 00:36:44.895
I know I should be a master confrontationalist.

729
00:36:44.915 --> 00:36:49.577
Like so many leaders who I work with, they might not feel warm, but they know they need to be warm.

730
00:36:50.678 --> 00:36:51.698
I think that's intent enough.

731
00:36:52.459 --> 00:36:52.579
Right?

732
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:53.839
We just got to find the ones that work for you.

733
00:36:54.359 --> 00:36:59.062
And you talked a second ago about these questions that lead to dead ends, which are like, what you do.

734
00:37:00.180 --> 00:37:01.761
What are the other examples you gave?

735
00:37:02.102 --> 00:37:04.284
Okay, I have a question that I hate a lot.

736
00:37:04.524 --> 00:37:05.265
I hate it a lot.

737
00:37:05.565 --> 00:37:07.567
I want it to leave our vocabulary.

738
00:37:08.247 --> 00:37:10.109
It's the worst question in the history of conversation.

739
00:37:10.649 --> 00:37:11.991
It is, been busy.

740
00:37:12.640 --> 00:37:12.920
Okay.

741
00:37:13.461 --> 00:37:13.621
Yeah.

742
00:37:13.961 --> 00:37:14.222
Right.

743
00:37:14.282 --> 00:37:15.323
Like... Been busy.

744
00:37:15.603 --> 00:37:16.063
What do you do?

745
00:37:16.464 --> 00:37:18.926
When you're on the receiving end of those kinds of questions...

746
00:37:19.126 --> 00:37:19.406
Yes.

747
00:37:20.327 --> 00:37:21.468
How do I counter that?

748
00:37:21.488 --> 00:37:23.150
Because I'm going to get that everywhere I go forever.

749
00:37:23.170 --> 00:37:24.611
So how do I counter that?

750
00:37:24.671 --> 00:37:24.911
Okay.

751
00:37:24.932 --> 00:37:27.314
So every time... First of all, boring questions make you boring.

752
00:37:27.394 --> 00:37:27.874
We know this.

753
00:37:28.375 --> 00:37:31.297
But boring questions asked of you are an opportunity.

754
00:37:31.317 --> 00:37:31.898
Yes.

755
00:37:31.998 --> 00:37:37.661
In fact, I think you can really surprise and delight someone by breaking the script on their boring question.

756
00:37:37.941 --> 00:37:39.903
You are going to be asked a lot of boring questions.

757
00:37:40.183 --> 00:37:42.004
Let's talk about two buckets here.

758
00:37:42.444 --> 00:37:45.866
The first bucket is when you're asked, what do you do?

759
00:37:46.246 --> 00:37:47.447
And you're going to be asked a lot.

760
00:37:47.627 --> 00:37:49.208
You better have a great answer.

761
00:37:49.988 --> 00:37:54.631
I think having a great answer to what do you do is creating opportunities for yourself.

762
00:37:55.371 --> 00:37:59.274
What most people make the mistake of with what do you do, and I have an entire chapter about it in the book, is what?

763
00:38:00.014 --> 00:38:02.575
When you're asked what do you do, they're looking for something, right?

764
00:38:02.595 --> 00:38:03.855
They're trying to understand who you are.

765
00:38:04.455 --> 00:38:05.976
Maybe they're even asking what are you worth.

766
00:38:07.236 --> 00:38:07.556
Maybe.

767
00:38:08.236 --> 00:38:11.457
So now the ball's in your court to break the script and to surprise them.

768
00:38:12.378 --> 00:38:16.739
You want to give an answer that explains exactly what you do but then gives them a little bit of a hook.

769
00:38:17.588 --> 00:38:18.949
As in, like, creates that curiosity gap.

770
00:38:18.969 --> 00:38:21.850
A little bit of information gap, a little bit of curiosity.

771
00:38:22.411 --> 00:38:25.952
And we don't want to overcomplicate or be vague.

772
00:38:26.653 --> 00:38:28.454
So, for example, I was sitting in a coffee shop.

773
00:38:28.514 --> 00:38:32.256
I was researching this book, and I was eavesdropping on everyone's conversations, because that's the best way.

774
00:38:32.336 --> 00:38:35.397
You know, if you listen to conversations in the wild, all the things you hear are great.

775
00:38:35.678 --> 00:38:38.859
And I was on my computer, and I heard – she said, so, what do you do?

776
00:38:38.879 --> 00:38:39.780
I think they were on, like, a date.

777
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:45.663
And he goes, oh, I have a system for maximizing achievement in young learners.

778
00:38:45.683 --> 00:38:45.963
Right?

779
00:38:46.948 --> 00:38:48.189
And she was like, what?

780
00:38:49.389 --> 00:38:53.431
And he goes, yeah, I work with fifth grade students and I have a system for how they can learn math and reading.

781
00:38:53.451 --> 00:38:55.872
And she goes, oh, you're a teacher.

782
00:38:56.452 --> 00:38:57.593
He goes, yeah, I'm a fifth grade teacher.

783
00:38:58.573 --> 00:38:59.614
And I was like, wow.

784
00:38:59.834 --> 00:39:01.755
The intention there was to be interesting.

785
00:39:02.095 --> 00:39:04.076
He didn't want to say I'm just a fifth grade teacher.

786
00:39:04.656 --> 00:39:05.777
But he gave the brain...

787
00:39:06.637 --> 00:39:09.379
too many calories, like conversation calories.

788
00:39:09.959 --> 00:39:13.301
The brain wants the simplest, easiest road possible.

789
00:39:13.341 --> 00:39:14.241
We want to put people at ease.

790
00:39:14.321 --> 00:39:17.323
What doesn't put people at ease is acting like you're reading your resume.

791
00:39:18.364 --> 00:39:22.966
If your answer to what do you do sounds like you're reading your resume, you are turning people off.

792
00:39:23.927 --> 00:39:27.449
It's either jargon-filled or it feels too formal or too complex.

793
00:39:27.889 --> 00:39:30.130
So that answer that he gave was vague.

794
00:39:30.791 --> 00:39:32.311
It was complex.

795
00:39:32.331 --> 00:39:32.612
Yeah.

796
00:39:33.762 --> 00:39:35.203
And it wasn't the social hierarchy.

797
00:39:35.223 --> 00:39:36.164
And it wasn't interesting.

798
00:39:36.184 --> 00:39:37.585
Also, it didn't give me a late, right?

799
00:39:37.605 --> 00:39:42.528
Like the social hierarchy of facts, I have to know what you do before I can know your how.

800
00:39:42.848 --> 00:39:43.769
So what should he have said?

801
00:39:44.249 --> 00:39:47.391
Okay, what he should have said is not the how, but the what.

802
00:39:48.211 --> 00:39:50.733
I love why, but I think that that needs to come second.

803
00:39:50.753 --> 00:39:55.176
So what he should have said is, I'm a fifth grade teacher and I've been working for the last 10 years.

804
00:39:55.316 --> 00:39:57.958
I developed this really unique system that speeds up reading.

805
00:39:59.434 --> 00:40:03.216
Now we're talking because my brain went, got it, check, fifth grade teacher, got it.

806
00:40:03.896 --> 00:40:05.077
Then I got to hear the how.

807
00:40:05.097 --> 00:40:05.777
Wow, 10 years.

808
00:40:05.797 --> 00:40:07.178
That answered another question that we always have.

809
00:40:07.198 --> 00:40:08.078
How long have you been doing that?

810
00:40:08.158 --> 00:40:08.318
Right?

811
00:40:08.338 --> 00:40:09.339
You're trying to skip ahead.

812
00:40:09.699 --> 00:40:13.521
And then it added this hook of I figured out how to get students to read faster.

813
00:40:14.201 --> 00:40:17.303
So when you think of what to do, I have a little formula if you're willing to play around with it.

814
00:40:17.383 --> 00:40:19.684
And again, a formula, always take it loosely, make it fit.

815
00:40:20.684 --> 00:40:21.505
I do blank.

816
00:40:23.640 --> 00:40:26.201
For who, by how.

817
00:40:27.622 --> 00:40:30.103
That is doing some, it's like a gift to the other person.

818
00:40:30.303 --> 00:40:34.324
You're giving them a very clear label of what you do so they can put you in a box.

819
00:40:34.364 --> 00:40:39.006
And I hate being put in a box, but unfortunately our brains need it, especially if it's very easy to understand.

820
00:40:39.546 --> 00:40:41.827
By who, because people always want to, can you help me?

821
00:40:42.387 --> 00:40:43.048
Can you help my friend?

822
00:40:43.148 --> 00:40:43.788
Is it for my sister?

823
00:40:44.368 --> 00:40:45.949
And then if it fits your how.

824
00:40:46.507 --> 00:40:49.870
A lot of people listening now are more multi-hyphenated than ever before.

825
00:40:50.230 --> 00:40:50.810
Love a multi-hyphenated.

826
00:40:50.830 --> 00:40:55.294
They do a this, a that, a violin, a creator, a LinkedIn thing, a speech, a dance, an improv.

827
00:40:55.414 --> 00:40:55.574
Yeah.

828
00:40:55.894 --> 00:40:57.775
So how do those people answer when they're multi-hyphenated?

829
00:40:57.856 --> 00:40:58.436
Oh, I love it.

830
00:40:58.496 --> 00:40:59.957
Okay, so two things.

831
00:41:00.818 --> 00:41:03.480
A multi-hyphenated, we understand complexity as humans.

832
00:41:03.540 --> 00:41:03.960
We get it.

833
00:41:04.200 --> 00:41:09.965
So you can say, you know, I daylight as a fifth grade teacher, but I moonlight as a cinematographer.

834
00:41:10.805 --> 00:41:12.568
You can literally say your hyphen.

835
00:41:12.989 --> 00:41:16.253
If you're in a career pivot, we have a lot of students who come to us who are mid-pivot.

836
00:41:16.774 --> 00:41:18.016
We love a hero story.

837
00:41:18.697 --> 00:41:23.644
So you can say, you know, I've been working in marketing for the last 20 years, but I'm thinking about going back to school for psychology.

838
00:41:23.664 --> 00:41:24.205
Right?

839
00:41:24.560 --> 00:41:24.680
Right?

840
00:41:24.720 --> 00:41:30.344
Like we think that people can't handle it, but conversation can handle a lot and it doesn't take a long time.

841
00:41:30.624 --> 00:41:34.886
Now, I do want to make a note here, the mechanics of conversation.

842
00:41:35.307 --> 00:41:36.848
So there's two aspects of conversation.

843
00:41:36.868 --> 00:41:38.028
There's the art, right?

844
00:41:38.048 --> 00:41:40.970
Like weaving in excitement and harvesting story.

845
00:41:40.990 --> 00:41:41.671
And I love that.

846
00:41:42.131 --> 00:41:43.112
But there's also the mechanics.

847
00:41:43.932 --> 00:41:45.113
So let's talk about that first.

848
00:41:45.433 --> 00:41:49.755
So the candor corpus is a huge research study on mechanics of conversation.

849
00:41:50.135 --> 00:41:53.437
So how long do you think a typical turn should take in conversation?

850
00:41:53.457 --> 00:41:54.838
Like how long should our turns take?

851
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:57.119
15 seconds.

852
00:41:57.519 --> 00:41:57.940
Wonderful.

853
00:41:58.040 --> 00:41:58.840
15 to 30 seconds.

854
00:41:59.480 --> 00:41:59.821
Okay.

855
00:42:00.241 --> 00:42:03.122
So in average conversation, we like 15 to 30 seconds.

856
00:42:03.142 --> 00:42:06.064
45 seconds is okay, but we start to turn to a monologue.

857
00:42:06.492 --> 00:42:09.073
By this, you mean how long we speak for each?

858
00:42:09.093 --> 00:42:09.453
Each, yes.

859
00:42:09.653 --> 00:42:10.693
Before I let you speak?

860
00:42:10.753 --> 00:42:12.874
Yes, before we start to feel like, well, I'm talking too much.

861
00:42:12.894 --> 00:42:13.454
It's not my turn.

862
00:42:13.494 --> 00:42:13.954
Okay.

863
00:42:13.974 --> 00:42:14.534
So 15 to 30.

864
00:42:14.554 --> 00:42:19.936
And by the way, if you want to go listen to previous Zoom conversations, it can be helpful to know if you're an overtalker or an undertalker.

865
00:42:20.776 --> 00:42:26.518
Under 15 seconds, you might be actually creating conversational scarcity, like not asking enough, not talking enough.

866
00:42:26.798 --> 00:42:27.778
Which one's worse, do you find?

867
00:42:30.359 --> 00:42:32.560
Well, I'm an overtalker, so I'm going to say undertalking.

868
00:42:33.607 --> 00:42:35.809
I'm an overtalker, so I'm going to say it's worse to me.

869
00:42:36.009 --> 00:42:37.110
I'm going to say it's worse to me.

870
00:42:37.430 --> 00:42:39.632
Wait, by the way, can I take a hit at podcasts for just a second?

871
00:42:39.672 --> 00:42:39.872
Sure.

872
00:42:40.372 --> 00:42:48.338
So the other reason I wrote this book is I think the art of conversation is being systematically stripped away piece by piece.

873
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:50.019
And it's well-intentioned.

874
00:42:50.680 --> 00:42:53.002
This is not a natural conversation, right?

875
00:42:53.022 --> 00:42:54.583
Like, I'm in an interview.

876
00:42:55.003 --> 00:42:57.665
I would never normally take this long on turns if we were having dinner.

877
00:42:57.965 --> 00:42:58.526
You're reading notes.

878
00:42:58.666 --> 00:42:59.526
I have notes.

879
00:43:00.167 --> 00:43:01.308
But more and more of our...

880
00:43:02.661 --> 00:43:05.984
off time is listening to podcast conversations, but those are not real conversations.

881
00:43:06.004 --> 00:43:06.625
Those are interviews.

882
00:43:07.185 --> 00:43:10.709
So one is we are hearing conversations that are not real.

883
00:43:11.530 --> 00:43:13.732
They are a bit performative, right?

884
00:43:14.012 --> 00:43:16.314
And they're not following the mechanics of conversation.

885
00:43:16.775 --> 00:43:18.857
That is affecting our conversational muscle in our brain.

886
00:43:19.537 --> 00:43:22.380
Second is we're having more and more asynchronous conversations.

887
00:43:23.221 --> 00:43:26.264
I now more than ever am sending nine-minute voice notes to my friends.

888
00:43:28.932 --> 00:43:29.152
Right?

889
00:43:29.853 --> 00:43:30.573
They send them back to me.

890
00:43:30.593 --> 00:43:32.834
Well, a voice note is not a conversation.

891
00:43:33.374 --> 00:43:34.555
A voice note is a monologue.

892
00:43:35.195 --> 00:43:39.598
And when you're giving a voice note, I don't get the, oh, it's my turn.

893
00:43:40.018 --> 00:43:40.458
Me too.

894
00:43:40.578 --> 00:43:41.219
How dare you?

895
00:43:41.479 --> 00:43:42.159
I don't like that.

896
00:43:42.499 --> 00:43:43.060
I don't agree.

897
00:43:43.520 --> 00:43:44.861
Like, there's no back and forth.

898
00:43:44.881 --> 00:43:47.622
In fact, it's the most selfish form of conversation.

899
00:43:47.682 --> 00:43:51.644
And this is from someone who sends a lot of voice notes because I don't need to hear your opinion.

900
00:43:52.305 --> 00:43:53.785
I get to go as long as I want.

901
00:43:54.266 --> 00:43:56.027
I don't have to worry about whatever you're doing.

902
00:43:56.787 --> 00:43:57.848
And I'm usually multitasking.

903
00:43:58.628 --> 00:43:58.748
Right.

904
00:43:58.768 --> 00:44:02.292
I'm listening to my best friend's voice note while I'm cleaning or cooking or exercising.

905
00:44:02.733 --> 00:44:10.842
So that has skewed it because we get into real conversation and it feels hard because our muscle has been atrophying with this asynchronous.

906
00:44:11.442 --> 00:44:14.105
And then we are also conversing less.

907
00:44:14.826 --> 00:44:17.829
You know, only three in 10 Americans socialize on a day to day basis.

908
00:44:18.895 --> 00:44:24.096
Only 3 in 10 Americans socialize on a daily basis, meaning they're having more time alone and they are conversing less.

909
00:44:25.077 --> 00:44:27.697
And that is because we're able to do so much work asynchronously.

910
00:44:27.797 --> 00:44:33.919
We also spend so much time on our self-care, our longevity, our workouts, that we're just doing less with other people.

911
00:44:34.759 --> 00:44:37.720
And one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness.

912
00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:41.704
And I think that is because we are having less conversation.

913
00:44:41.724 --> 00:44:43.866
And if we're having it, it's happening asynchronously.

914
00:44:44.147 --> 00:44:51.616
Or, and this is the last hardest point, is we are now talking to technology more than talking to each other.

915
00:44:51.636 --> 00:44:54.038
And I don't just mean through technology.

916
00:44:54.639 --> 00:45:00.241
Yes, we've been talking through technology for a long time, but only recently are we talking to technology.

917
00:45:01.062 --> 00:45:04.423
And when I talk to my technology, it sounds different than when I talk to you.

918
00:45:04.443 --> 00:45:10.246
Like I was sitting next to my husband and he was working and he was like talking to his AI and he was like, do better.

919
00:45:11.186 --> 00:45:12.067
That's terrible work.

920
00:45:12.127 --> 00:45:12.547
Do better.

921
00:45:12.567 --> 00:45:14.329
And then I asked him a question.

922
00:45:14.349 --> 00:45:16.791
He turned to me and I was like, you better not tell me to do better.

923
00:45:17.231 --> 00:45:22.335
You know, and that is because, you know, we're talking technology in a way that we would never talk to other humans.

924
00:45:22.956 --> 00:45:25.518
But our brain doesn't always know the difference.

925
00:45:26.318 --> 00:45:28.040
And so I think this muscle is atrophying.

926
00:45:28.404 --> 00:45:40.107
And on this point of like knowing whether you are a good conversationalist talker, there was a recent study of over a thousand Americans and they found that 95% of people have worked with someone who talks too much.

927
00:45:40.667 --> 00:45:44.248
These chatty co-workers spend an average of 90 minutes of their workday just talking.

928
00:45:44.668 --> 00:45:49.129
And 71% of respondents said talkative co-workers prevented them from getting their work done.

929
00:45:49.329 --> 00:45:49.569
Yes.

930
00:45:49.949 --> 00:45:52.650
How does one know if they are the person that talks too much?

931
00:45:53.146 --> 00:45:58.771
First is let's do an intervention on this is go back if you have recorded Zoom calls and just time yourself.

932
00:45:58.831 --> 00:46:02.494
There is a kind of appropriate, right, 15 to 45 seconds, 45 seconds is the most.

933
00:46:03.194 --> 00:46:04.535
Second, nonverbal cues.

934
00:46:04.675 --> 00:46:10.320
Someone is checking out if they are opening their mouth as if to say something.

935
00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:15.424
That is a subtle cue that someone wants to turn, but they are going to wait.

936
00:46:15.444 --> 00:46:17.926
So if someone is opening their mouth, I call it the open fish, okay?

937
00:46:19.502 --> 00:46:20.082
It means they want to turn.

938
00:46:20.102 --> 00:46:21.803
Like, you did it to me earlier, and I totally stopped.

939
00:46:21.983 --> 00:46:22.623
Yeah, you did, yeah.

940
00:46:22.743 --> 00:46:24.844
Yeah, because I was like, oh, he wants to say something.

941
00:46:24.884 --> 00:46:25.004
Yeah.

942
00:46:25.184 --> 00:46:29.285
No, so I actually do give people cues that I want to say something sometimes.

943
00:46:29.545 --> 00:46:31.906
And some of them see them, and some of them just do not.

944
00:46:32.066 --> 00:46:33.707
And I was, like, fully distraught.

945
00:46:33.887 --> 00:46:37.408
You're on this more sensitive end of the scale where you're almost watching what I'm doing.

946
00:46:37.508 --> 00:46:48.272
And it's, and, you know, having done, what, 700 of these interviews now, it's really fascinating to me that some people, I have to, like, remain completely utterly still because they are surveilling me for cues that they're doing a good job.

947
00:46:48.292 --> 00:46:48.452
Yeah.

948
00:46:49.452 --> 00:46:52.434
And so if I move or like look away, they immediately change.

949
00:46:52.894 --> 00:46:55.635
Whereas other people don't even know I'm here, which is actually what I prefer.

950
00:46:56.876 --> 00:47:03.819
Because then I can like grace these notes and look in the books and I can like go to the toilet and come back and, you know, it's just easier.

951
00:47:03.959 --> 00:47:05.559
And this is why this is not natural conversation.

952
00:47:05.720 --> 00:47:11.002
But I think people like you are better at conversation because you see conversation not as a megaphone in which you're shouting through.

953
00:47:11.282 --> 00:47:13.303
You see it as continual feedback.

954
00:47:13.503 --> 00:47:13.683
Yeah.

955
00:47:13.723 --> 00:47:17.945
And that's why I have to sometimes be on edge with people like you because I know that you're taking cues from me.

956
00:47:17.965 --> 00:47:18.065
Yeah.

957
00:47:18.165 --> 00:47:18.285
Right.

958
00:47:18.305 --> 00:47:20.126
And also, like, I'm looking for your eyebrow raises.

959
00:47:20.446 --> 00:47:20.646
Yeah.

960
00:47:20.987 --> 00:47:21.127
Right.

961
00:47:21.147 --> 00:47:26.689
Like, one is Neil deGrasse Tyson says that every book is every eyebrow raising thing he's ever said.

962
00:47:27.470 --> 00:47:31.632
Because he'll go on airplanes and he'll just talk to people and when they go, oh, he writes it down.

963
00:47:32.753 --> 00:47:35.814
And so I'm doing the same thing for you as I'm looking at your eyebrows very closely.

964
00:47:35.854 --> 00:47:36.555
Don't ever get Botox.

965
00:47:36.575 --> 00:47:36.775
Yeah.

966
00:47:37.375 --> 00:47:38.896
It'll be so hard to read you.

967
00:47:39.537 --> 00:47:42.679
And so if you raise your eyebrows, I want to double click on it, right?

968
00:47:42.699 --> 00:47:45.221
Because you're the tastemaker, right?

969
00:47:45.301 --> 00:47:48.464
I know I'm saying things that interest me, but it might not interest you.

970
00:47:48.544 --> 00:47:52.827
So if you say something, if you raise your eyebrows, I'm going to go deeper or give you an example or tell you a story.

971
00:47:53.388 --> 00:47:56.430
And this is like, this is why this is not a normal conversation and conversation doesn't go like this.

972
00:47:56.990 --> 00:47:59.813
Those moments go viral, right?

973
00:47:59.873 --> 00:48:01.054
Like when you go, oh, okay.

974
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:02.601
Yeah.

975
00:48:02.621 --> 00:48:03.761
So like the replayed parts.

976
00:48:03.902 --> 00:48:04.802
Like the umpiver thing.

977
00:48:04.822 --> 00:48:05.002
Right.

978
00:48:05.823 --> 00:48:08.986
And unfortunately, we're all here because we're trying to reach people, right?

979
00:48:09.026 --> 00:48:13.329
And so if you are going, ah, ooh, ah, and you raise your eyebrows, then I'm going to double click.

980
00:48:13.349 --> 00:48:22.537
So if no one is doing that to you, if you're in a conversation back and forth and there are no eyebrow raises and there's no ooh, ah, wow, and they are either looking away or having that open mouth.

981
00:48:22.557 --> 00:48:24.198
And by the way, that's also how I can interrupt someone.

982
00:48:24.258 --> 00:48:26.080
If I want to interrupt someone politely, I'll go, ah.

983
00:48:28.379 --> 00:48:33.962
It used to be that working for yourself was a massive, massive risk, but that world has completely changed.

984
00:48:34.102 --> 00:48:40.646
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985
00:48:41.106 --> 00:48:44.048
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986
00:48:44.468 --> 00:48:45.769
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987
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988
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989
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990
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991
00:49:07.084 --> 00:49:12.068
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992
00:49:12.328 --> 00:49:20.413
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993
00:49:20.574 --> 00:49:26.037
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994
00:49:26.257 --> 00:49:27.878
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995
00:49:27.898 --> 00:49:34.022
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996
00:49:34.963 --> 00:49:41.510
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997
00:49:41.690 --> 00:49:45.234
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998
00:49:45.394 --> 00:49:51.441
So when I look at the businesses seeing real success today, the consistent pattern with all of them is how quickly they move.

999
00:49:51.541 --> 00:49:55.085
They bring in specialists with skills in emerging areas to keep themselves ahead.

1000
00:49:55.265 --> 00:49:55.946
Even in our company,

1001
00:49:56.146 --> 00:50:02.572
We spent the last year pulling in talent across areas like AI native strategy, no code builds and product workflows.

1002
00:50:02.692 --> 00:50:05.275
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1003
00:50:05.575 --> 00:50:08.198
Their premium service only shows you vetted talent.

1004
00:50:08.318 --> 00:50:18.548
So you've always got the safeguard that anyone you pull in to help you with a complex project has the skills that you're after and will deliver to the same high standards as your internal team.

1005
00:50:18.808 --> 00:50:20.650
And most importantly, they'll keep up with the pace.

1006
00:50:20.750 --> 00:50:24.214
It's a simple strategy, but it lets us stay agile without compromising on quality.

1007
00:50:24.434 --> 00:50:30.541
So if you need these kind of skills in your business, head to pro.fiverr.com to find pioneering talent to fill your business's gaps.

1008
00:50:30.881 --> 00:50:32.483
That's pro.fiverr.com.

1009
00:50:34.085 --> 00:50:35.306
I'll be honest, Vanessa.

1010
00:50:36.047 --> 00:50:40.171
I was thinking about someone that I might consider to be in the over-talking category.

1011
00:50:40.331 --> 00:50:40.492
Yeah.

1012
00:50:41.333 --> 00:50:46.177
And when they talk, I don't think they have any concept that there's anybody else in the room.

1013
00:50:46.197 --> 00:50:47.178
Yeah.

1014
00:50:47.198 --> 00:50:50.441
I think they might as well have their eyes completely closed.

1015
00:50:50.461 --> 00:50:52.743
That's kind of, I was just thinking about it the other day when I was with this person.

1016
00:50:53.104 --> 00:50:54.605
And they might as well be sat there like this.

1017
00:50:54.985 --> 00:50:58.548
And they're just, and they're going to finish when they feel like they've run out of things.

1018
00:50:59.489 --> 00:51:02.570
Okay, this is, there are two types of conversational people.

1019
00:51:02.830 --> 00:51:04.631
There's entertainers and appreciators.

1020
00:51:05.911 --> 00:51:08.332
One of the biggest questions I get is, how do I talk to VIPs?

1021
00:51:08.432 --> 00:51:09.252
How do I talk to my boss?

1022
00:51:10.132 --> 00:51:11.473
And this is exactly this.

1023
00:51:11.553 --> 00:51:13.033
And I don't know if they're a VIP or not.

1024
00:51:13.053 --> 00:51:13.854
It actually doesn't matter.

1025
00:51:14.154 --> 00:51:15.174
They are an entertainer.

1026
00:51:15.954 --> 00:51:21.576
The way I discovered this framework is I was in the green room for a speaking event, and a very famous person came in.

1027
00:51:21.596 --> 00:51:22.716
I can tell you who it was later.

1028
00:51:23.177 --> 00:51:23.977
Very, very famous.

1029
00:51:24.277 --> 00:51:24.717
Who was it?

1030
00:51:25.657 --> 00:51:26.258
We're going to cut this.

1031
00:51:26.498 --> 00:51:27.058
No, keep it in.

1032
00:51:30.279 --> 00:51:31.400
I think he's Bernie Mavis.

1033
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:32.801
Massively famous.

1034
00:51:32.821 --> 00:51:33.161
Okay, okay.

1035
00:51:33.401 --> 00:51:36.282
He comes in, and we have a little bit of downtime before he has to go up.

1036
00:51:36.903 --> 00:51:39.644
And I watched person after person try.

1037
00:51:40.164 --> 00:51:41.745
You know when you watch someone try?

1038
00:51:41.825 --> 00:51:44.446
And this is the same thing when someone's approaching their boss or a VIP.

1039
00:51:45.387 --> 00:51:49.149
And they all tried the same way, either a compliment or a question.

1040
00:51:50.082 --> 00:51:52.184
Oh, I love your stuff so much.

1041
00:51:52.204 --> 00:51:54.345
I've been watching you since I was a kid.

1042
00:51:54.706 --> 00:51:56.367
Oh my gosh, you changed my life, right?

1043
00:51:56.567 --> 00:51:57.988
Compliment or question.

1044
00:51:58.008 --> 00:51:59.349
Oh, what's the best thing you've ever done?

1045
00:51:59.369 --> 00:52:00.490
I won't get too specific.

1046
00:52:00.530 --> 00:52:02.972
What was your, do you have any advice for me as a young person?

1047
00:52:02.992 --> 00:52:04.793
Right, it was either compliment or question.

1048
00:52:04.813 --> 00:52:06.375
And he was just not having it.

1049
00:52:07.095 --> 00:52:09.397
Hmm, yeah, nice to meet you.

1050
00:52:09.417 --> 00:52:09.517
Yeah.

1051
00:52:10.319 --> 00:52:10.459
Right?

1052
00:52:10.479 --> 00:52:11.180
Like quick selfie.

1053
00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:12.361
Just not engage.

1054
00:52:12.401 --> 00:52:13.323
And I was like, wow.

1055
00:52:13.603 --> 00:52:15.245
That's what I would have advised back then.

1056
00:52:15.645 --> 00:52:17.047
Either go with a compliment or a question.

1057
00:52:17.147 --> 00:52:17.267
No.

1058
00:52:17.768 --> 00:52:18.769
Then one person came up.

1059
00:52:18.909 --> 00:52:20.130
It was actually one of the AV guys.

1060
00:52:20.231 --> 00:52:20.971
He was going to mic him.

1061
00:52:21.772 --> 00:52:23.494
And he said, can I tell you the funniest story?

1062
00:52:23.514 --> 00:52:24.976
Can I tell you the funniest story?

1063
00:52:25.852 --> 00:52:29.373
And he was like, and you could literally see him, was like, yeah.

1064
00:52:30.093 --> 00:52:38.455
And this guy begins to tell him hilarious stories about the first time he watched one of his movies, hilarious stories about him and his siblings playing sports.

1065
00:52:38.976 --> 00:52:40.696
And, you know, he's laughing.

1066
00:52:40.716 --> 00:52:41.796
The guy is laughing.

1067
00:52:42.056 --> 00:52:43.517
And then he starts asking some questions.

1068
00:52:44.077 --> 00:52:46.398
And I realized he wants to be entertained.

1069
00:52:46.958 --> 00:52:48.518
He doesn't want to entertain him.

1070
00:52:48.838 --> 00:52:50.539
So what I realized was...

1071
00:52:51.459 --> 00:52:53.420
There are certain people who want to entertain.

1072
00:52:53.640 --> 00:52:56.382
They speak longer, so they're more at risk of talking too much.

1073
00:52:56.742 --> 00:52:58.023
They want you to laugh at their jokes.

1074
00:52:58.303 --> 00:52:59.524
They want to share their stories.

1075
00:52:59.864 --> 00:53:07.348
Their love language in conversation, what gives them energy is other people giving them adoration or listening to their stories, listening to their ideas.

1076
00:53:07.448 --> 00:53:08.429
They love giving advice.

1077
00:53:08.929 --> 00:53:10.210
They talk more in conversation.

1078
00:53:10.710 --> 00:53:16.754
The other type of person, and I think this is you, and actually this is me, even though it doesn't look that way on podcasts, we are appreciators.

1079
00:53:17.514 --> 00:53:19.495
I talk all day long for my work.

1080
00:53:19.855 --> 00:53:22.116
The last thing I do when I want to go to dinner is talk.

1081
00:53:22.857 --> 00:53:27.739
In fact, when people ask me deep questions, I sometimes I'm like, can we go back to level one and can you just tell me everything?

1082
00:53:28.280 --> 00:53:29.880
Appreciators talk less.

1083
00:53:30.741 --> 00:53:33.382
They love to laugh at other people's stories.

1084
00:53:33.802 --> 00:53:38.445
They love to hear interesting, weird, surprising, embarrassing things.

1085
00:53:39.085 --> 00:53:41.547
they are much more hesitant to open up about themselves.

1086
00:53:42.007 --> 00:53:45.490
Like as long as we've been talking, we are not personally on level three, right?

1087
00:53:45.510 --> 00:53:47.871
Like we are able to hide that because we keep it back.

1088
00:53:48.932 --> 00:53:52.495
It is critical when you're talking to bosses or VIPs to know which one you're talking to.

1089
00:53:53.796 --> 00:53:55.117
Entertainers want questions.

1090
00:53:56.288 --> 00:53:59.152
But appreciators want people to tell them stories, right?

1091
00:53:59.172 --> 00:54:00.254
They don't want a lot of questions.

1092
00:54:00.694 --> 00:54:02.136
So your friend is an entertainer.

1093
00:54:02.557 --> 00:54:09.547
So you get to make the choice of, are you going to go into their superpower and let them just entertain you and keep going and keep talking as much as they want?

1094
00:54:09.968 --> 00:54:10.749
Or do you want the ball?

1095
00:54:11.109 --> 00:54:12.852
What if the thing they're saying is...

1096
00:54:15.556 --> 00:54:22.080
Because when you hear entertainer, I interpret that as you're coming up to someone and sharing something that is fun and interesting and whatever.

1097
00:54:22.461 --> 00:54:26.343
But there's some people that roll up and they say they talk about themselves.

1098
00:54:27.204 --> 00:54:28.224
And that's what they want to talk about.

1099
00:54:28.465 --> 00:54:30.966
They want to, you know, could be a self-esteem issue.

1100
00:54:30.986 --> 00:54:33.188
They want to convince you that they are whatever.

1101
00:54:33.841 --> 00:54:35.022
Conversational narcissist.

1102
00:54:35.342 --> 00:54:35.962
Okay, is that a thing?

1103
00:54:36.242 --> 00:54:36.483
Yeah.

1104
00:54:36.703 --> 00:54:40.785
So these are people in conversation, and this is when the levels still hold.

1105
00:54:40.825 --> 00:54:43.306
In fact, sometimes the conversational narcissist will take themselves.

1106
00:54:43.326 --> 00:54:45.828
They'll walk themselves right up all three levels.

1107
00:54:45.908 --> 00:54:47.569
They'll answer for themselves in level one.

1108
00:54:47.809 --> 00:54:51.291
They'll tell you all about their goals, and they'll tell you the most deepest things that you did not want to know.

1109
00:54:51.591 --> 00:54:53.092
And that's when you get verbal vomit.

1110
00:54:53.512 --> 00:54:56.634
Like someone just like they won't stop talking and they're just telling you things you didn't even want to know.

1111
00:54:57.555 --> 00:54:58.455
You have a choice.

1112
00:54:59.135 --> 00:55:05.119
You can either try to teach them that that's not the way they should be in conversation and you can literally say, is it my turn yet?

1113
00:55:07.060 --> 00:55:07.861
Do you want to hear about mine?

1114
00:55:07.881 --> 00:55:09.962
Do you want to hear about my goal?

1115
00:55:11.435 --> 00:55:11.595
Right.

1116
00:55:11.615 --> 00:55:17.378
Like if this is the person you're going to invest in and you care for and you like, you have to you have to stand up for what you want to share.

1117
00:55:17.538 --> 00:55:21.721
In your experience, where does that conversational narcissism come from?

1118
00:55:21.741 --> 00:55:22.841
Insecurity.

1119
00:55:23.142 --> 00:55:23.382
Yeah.

1120
00:55:23.842 --> 00:55:23.982
Right.

1121
00:55:24.002 --> 00:55:24.843
This person's insecure.

1122
00:55:24.863 --> 00:55:25.643
I don't even know them.

1123
00:55:26.083 --> 00:55:26.604
They're insecure.

1124
00:55:26.624 --> 00:55:28.885
And also, my bet is they're trying to impress you.

1125
00:55:30.296 --> 00:55:32.317
My bet is they're trying to find something to raise your eyebrows.

1126
00:55:32.637 --> 00:55:36.278
But they don't realize that the more they talk, the more you're like, can I go home?

1127
00:55:36.698 --> 00:55:39.119
Do you think they know that they're a conversational narcissist?

1128
00:55:39.139 --> 00:55:41.279
Do you think they're listening right now and think, fuck, that's me?

1129
00:55:42.300 --> 00:55:56.544
Or do they not have that level of... Because the person that I was referring to, they know they talk too much because they say it and they've had the feedback multiple... And they literally will say, I talk too much, but then they can't seem to stop because it's so deeply ingrained in them from their childhood.

1130
00:55:56.664 --> 00:55:56.924
Mm-hmm.

1131
00:55:57.997 --> 00:56:00.561
So I'm wondering if they, you know, they're listening now and they go, okay, that's me.

1132
00:56:00.581 --> 00:56:02.365
Because my next question is like, how do they fix it?

1133
00:56:03.377 --> 00:56:03.917
Curiosity.

1134
00:56:04.397 --> 00:56:05.238
That's an easier question.

1135
00:56:05.638 --> 00:56:07.278
I actually don't think there's a hard and fast rule.

1136
00:56:07.638 --> 00:56:10.379
Some conversational narcissists are aware of it and hate themselves for it.

1137
00:56:11.119 --> 00:56:14.320
Like they literally know they're doing it and they're like, why?

1138
00:56:14.740 --> 00:56:15.881
Stop talking.

1139
00:56:15.921 --> 00:56:18.261
Like they literally know what's happening and they're like, why?

1140
00:56:18.541 --> 00:56:19.002
Why am I doing this?

1141
00:56:19.022 --> 00:56:21.562
But they can't stop because they're so scared of the awkward silence.

1142
00:56:21.942 --> 00:56:25.924
And by the way, we asked a couple thousand people, what is your greatest conversational fear?

1143
00:56:26.964 --> 00:56:28.804
I thought it was going to be rejection or judgment.

1144
00:56:29.244 --> 00:56:30.765
No, it was awkward silences.

1145
00:56:32.020 --> 00:56:33.001
or not knowing what to say.

1146
00:56:33.601 --> 00:56:34.362
Very mechanical.

1147
00:56:34.382 --> 00:56:40.688
And I thought, wow, 4,000 people, their biggest conversational fear is not being rejected.

1148
00:56:40.868 --> 00:56:42.509
That was one of the options on the multiple choice.

1149
00:56:42.949 --> 00:56:44.291
It's running out of things to say.

1150
00:56:45.211 --> 00:56:53.058
So the reason they're talking too much is because they are terrified of that moment where they're sitting with Stephen Bartlett and there's a silence.

1151
00:56:53.559 --> 00:56:54.960
And then you're like, bye, bye.

1152
00:56:56.178 --> 00:56:56.899
I like the silence.

1153
00:56:57.159 --> 00:57:03.063
I mean, as a podcast, you have to come to terms with the fact that the guests might stop talking at any moment and you might not have anything else to say.

1154
00:57:03.083 --> 00:57:04.324
That's why I don't have a podcast.

1155
00:57:04.464 --> 00:57:05.565
That's why I don't have a podcast.

1156
00:57:05.885 --> 00:57:08.627
So, and then the way that they fix it is curiosity, right?

1157
00:57:08.647 --> 00:57:10.608
I do believe in like assertive curiosity, like...

1158
00:57:11.549 --> 00:57:17.955
Not just the follow up, like, tell me more, but like the what, the how, the why, the when.

1159
00:57:17.975 --> 00:57:24.300
I think that those like what, how, why, when, that assertive curiosity of like, let's actually dig into this dream.

1160
00:57:24.340 --> 00:57:25.601
Like, let's really talk about it.

1161
00:57:25.961 --> 00:57:26.662
Wait, I'm confused.

1162
00:57:26.682 --> 00:57:29.444
So if we had a conversational narcissist here.

1163
00:57:29.785 --> 00:57:29.965
Yeah.

1164
00:57:30.185 --> 00:57:33.048
Are you telling me how they would recover from that?

1165
00:57:33.268 --> 00:57:36.711
They would recover from it by being aggressively or assertively curious about you.

1166
00:57:36.731 --> 00:57:36.831
Yeah.

1167
00:57:37.231 --> 00:57:38.992
Okay, but they know, they know.

1168
00:57:39.313 --> 00:57:40.353
I feel like they know that.

1169
00:57:40.373 --> 00:57:42.355
I feel like they know they talk too much.

1170
00:57:42.475 --> 00:57:44.216
Okay, then I'm going to say something you're not going to like it.

1171
00:57:44.897 --> 00:57:46.878
Maybe you're not giving them enough to be curious about.

1172
00:57:48.139 --> 00:57:51.181
What I would ask next time is, are you curious about me?

1173
00:57:52.042 --> 00:57:53.443
Or do you not feel the curiosity?

1174
00:57:54.363 --> 00:57:57.665
Because saying, do you want to know my answer or is it my turn yet?

1175
00:57:57.805 --> 00:58:00.046
Is a way of being like, is there curiosity there?

1176
00:58:01.247 --> 00:58:02.227
I think that's really important.

1177
00:58:02.247 --> 00:58:06.149
Like I think in relational patterns, like there are really conversational patterns that we can have.

1178
00:58:06.169 --> 00:58:08.411
So we're talking a lot about new-ish people.

1179
00:58:09.011 --> 00:58:10.852
But how about the people you've known for a long time?

1180
00:58:11.072 --> 00:58:19.837
My goal, my deepest wish for this podcast is that you will go have a conversation, a cornerstone conversation with someone and ask all nine questions.

1181
00:58:20.657 --> 00:58:41.064
Now, if you're in a conversational rut, and this can happen in friendships, it can happen with people who are used to being the over-talker in their relationship, it can happen in marriages or marriages where you only talk about logistics, this is going to break the rut because the whole point of this is turn-taking.

1182
00:58:41.644 --> 00:58:45.145
So I would be just so curious if you go to dinner with this person and you're like, hey,

1183
00:58:46.200 --> 00:58:49.242
My friend Vanessa came on the pod and she gave us nine questions.

1184
00:58:49.262 --> 00:58:50.183
Do you want to do them together?

1185
00:58:50.884 --> 00:58:51.464
I'll go first.

1186
00:58:52.885 --> 00:58:53.465
Could she do it?

1187
00:58:54.586 --> 00:58:55.147
It's a she, right?

1188
00:58:55.287 --> 00:58:55.447
He.

1189
00:58:55.907 --> 00:58:56.107
He.

1190
00:58:56.328 --> 00:58:56.988
Could he do it?

1191
00:58:57.308 --> 00:58:57.769
Right?

1192
00:58:58.089 --> 00:58:58.589
Could he do it?

1193
00:58:59.150 --> 00:59:00.331
And so that...

1194
00:59:01.339 --> 00:59:04.522
This is how you can break that rut to see if there's actual curiosity there.

1195
00:59:04.562 --> 00:59:07.264
Because I have, I always assume the best in people.

1196
00:59:07.344 --> 00:59:11.187
I'm hoping this person is very well-intentioned, just has deep insecurity.

1197
00:59:11.508 --> 00:59:13.109
It is the case, in my opinion.

1198
00:59:13.249 --> 00:59:17.553
If you were to give a framework, it can sometimes break you out of a conversational rut with someone.

1199
00:59:19.018 --> 00:59:26.800
I remember I think it was you that said to me that the key to great conversations or interactions was being interested, not interesting.

1200
00:59:26.980 --> 00:59:28.081
Yeah, after Dale Carnegie.

1201
00:59:28.101 --> 00:59:29.621
Yes, I wish I had created with it.

1202
00:59:29.661 --> 00:59:35.843
So Dale Carnegie is sort of the person who allowed me to think about being less selfish.

1203
00:59:36.882 --> 00:59:41.766
I think that if you go into a conversation thinking all about yourself, how can I be impressive?

1204
00:59:41.826 --> 00:59:43.387
How can I be smart and funny?

1205
00:59:43.407 --> 00:59:44.488
And how can I get them to like me?

1206
00:59:44.709 --> 00:59:45.369
That's okay.

1207
00:59:45.649 --> 00:59:46.590
But it's quite selfish.

1208
00:59:46.630 --> 00:59:47.871
And it's a lot of pressure.

1209
00:59:47.891 --> 00:59:49.352
It's a lot of pressure.

1210
00:59:49.773 --> 00:59:53.176
When I started thinking, how can I go into conversation putting this person at ease?

1211
00:59:54.314 --> 00:59:56.657
How can I make them feel like they can impress me?

1212
00:59:56.977 --> 00:59:59.580
How can I be interested to make them interesting?

1213
00:59:59.700 --> 01:00:03.164
And hopefully that has a rebound effect of making me interesting.

1214
01:00:04.045 --> 01:00:07.429
That is a very selfless conversational generosity.

1215
01:00:08.652 --> 01:00:12.654
One small goal for the book was to create more conversational generosity.

1216
01:00:13.475 --> 01:00:20.899
That if you're in conversation and someone is over-talking, you can be generous enough to either say, hey, can I have a turn?

1217
01:00:21.839 --> 01:00:25.541
Or to let them entertain you because they're entertainers, or to ask even more questions.

1218
01:00:25.821 --> 01:00:32.405
And you said to me last time that there was a study that found the most liked people were those that were interested in others in conversation.

1219
01:00:32.765 --> 01:00:37.828
The most popular kids were the kids who had the longest list of people they liked.

1220
01:00:37.848 --> 01:00:38.028
Yeah.

1221
01:00:39.933 --> 01:00:46.579
Meaning, if you want to be likable, you have to go around assertively and aggressively liking as many people as possible.

1222
01:00:47.460 --> 01:00:50.022
Because if you go into conversations thinking, how could I like you?

1223
01:00:50.062 --> 01:00:50.723
How could I like you?

1224
01:00:50.743 --> 01:00:51.684
How could I like you more?

1225
01:00:52.625 --> 01:00:53.405
It's less about you.

1226
01:00:53.786 --> 01:00:56.028
And you're asking questions that are setting them up to be likable.

1227
01:00:56.528 --> 01:01:00.792
I wonder, and I wish I could take a crack at this conversational narcissist that you know, but...

1228
01:01:00.932 --> 01:01:10.922
If I were to ask more questions of them, like really set them up to entertain me, to get deep, to actually let them go to level two and maybe even level three if they want to, would they calm down?

1229
01:01:11.964 --> 01:01:17.669
Would their insecurity feel, I'm understood, I'm chosen, I'm loved?

1230
01:01:18.705 --> 01:01:22.008
I think, and this is just, you're an intimidating person, right?

1231
01:01:22.028 --> 01:01:24.450
Like I, thank goodness, have confidence.

1232
01:01:24.470 --> 01:01:26.932
But if I was dinner with you, I think I would feel a little bit nervous too.

1233
01:01:27.232 --> 01:01:27.992
Maybe not anymore.

1234
01:01:28.012 --> 01:01:38.020
But when I first met you for sure two years ago, my guess is that this person doesn't feel liked, doesn't feel understood by you, and doesn't feel chosen by you.

1235
01:01:38.441 --> 01:01:44.145
And the quieter you become, when you're just trying to respect them, the quieter you become, the more they don't feel those three things as they keep talking.

1236
01:01:45.266 --> 01:01:53.594
So I would try to ask better, deeper questions, like lean into it and see if that can get them calm enough to be like, oh, he chose me.

1237
01:01:54.896 --> 01:01:55.496
He loves me.

1238
01:01:55.636 --> 01:02:05.186
What's interesting is I observe with people like that that they step more into the conversational narcissism with certain people.

1239
01:02:05.626 --> 01:02:06.267
Yes, yes.

1240
01:02:06.717 --> 01:02:06.997
Yes.

1241
01:02:07.037 --> 01:02:08.218
So with certain individuals.

1242
01:02:08.298 --> 01:02:21.487
So for example, in this case, if I was a beautiful woman, this individual would be full blown, like word vomit, like it would fully come out.

1243
01:02:21.787 --> 01:02:21.907
Oh.

1244
01:02:22.347 --> 01:02:22.627
You know?

1245
01:02:22.647 --> 01:02:23.108
Yeah.

1246
01:02:23.328 --> 01:02:29.732
Or just women generally, even if it's a platonic relationship, becomes even more like intent on...

1247
01:02:30.272 --> 01:02:33.974
Wants to be understood, chosen, and loved by that beautiful woman.

1248
01:02:34.034 --> 01:02:34.275
Yeah.

1249
01:02:34.575 --> 01:02:34.735
Right?

1250
01:02:34.755 --> 01:02:35.996
Like, such a deep desire.

1251
01:02:36.016 --> 01:02:41.219
And so I wonder if you could disengage it with actually answering those three questions for them, like putting them at ease.

1252
01:02:42.319 --> 01:02:52.766
I also think it's important to talk about an aspect of bad conversation is making the driver of the conversation feel like they're a bad driver.

1253
01:02:54.327 --> 01:02:54.487
Right?

1254
01:02:54.547 --> 01:02:56.248
This person is driving conversation, right?

1255
01:02:56.268 --> 01:02:58.149
Like, they know they're an overtalker and they're driving.

1256
01:02:58.549 --> 01:02:59.930
And all the passengers are like, fuck.

1257
01:03:01.789 --> 01:03:02.569
And what does a bad driver do?

1258
01:03:02.589 --> 01:03:03.470
They get even more tense.

1259
01:03:04.471 --> 01:03:05.311
They get even worse at it.

1260
01:03:05.651 --> 01:03:08.413
And so the flip side of that is how can you make them feel like a better driver?

1261
01:03:08.433 --> 01:03:12.015
And one way that we accidentally – the opposite of dream building is dream killing.

1262
01:03:12.716 --> 01:03:15.297
So dream killing is when we shut down a dream.

1263
01:03:15.777 --> 01:03:16.958
We make someone feel not liked.

1264
01:03:17.318 --> 01:03:18.459
We make them feel not understood.

1265
01:03:19.059 --> 01:03:25.323
I think that very smart people have an accidental effect where they dream kill with – Logic.

1266
01:03:25.763 --> 01:03:26.084
Mm-hmm.

1267
01:03:26.364 --> 01:03:26.544
Yeah.

1268
01:03:26.916 --> 01:03:31.800
You know, I call it my lovely smart leader is I say you're fact checking, not gut checking.

1269
01:03:33.001 --> 01:03:44.870
If you're fact checking all the time, if you're, you know, trying to accuracy kill, but they're not there yet, you're actually creating a conversational scarcity that's going to make them feel like, oh, I have to prove myself.

1270
01:03:44.890 --> 01:03:45.611
I have to dig in.

1271
01:03:45.631 --> 01:03:47.792
Now I'm going to talk more because I want to convince you.

1272
01:03:48.653 --> 01:03:51.434
And so I think the opposite of dream building is dream killing.

1273
01:03:51.814 --> 01:03:55.234
And very smart people tend to dream kill by accident, and it shuts down connection completely.

1274
01:03:55.434 --> 01:03:59.835
Like not only will you not get to level two, you'll bounce down to level one, or you won't have a relationship with that person.

1275
01:04:00.155 --> 01:04:05.256
I was just thinking about in my previous company, we interviewed somebody, and they were extremely, extremely intelligent.

1276
01:04:05.777 --> 01:04:07.597
And it was really obvious to me how intelligent they were.

1277
01:04:07.797 --> 01:04:08.537
Like unbelievable.

1278
01:04:08.637 --> 01:04:09.817
Their credentials, unbelievable.

1279
01:04:10.057 --> 01:04:16.959
And then they went through the interview process, and the interview feedback from the people that met them was like neutral or negative.

1280
01:04:17.699 --> 01:04:19.220
I remember thinking, do you know what it is?

1281
01:04:19.260 --> 01:04:25.944
This person is so obsessed with the pursuit of truth that they put being liked or being pleased or whatever to the side.

1282
01:04:26.004 --> 01:04:28.086
They just care if what you're saying is true or not.

1283
01:04:28.106 --> 01:04:28.466
That's it.

1284
01:04:29.126 --> 01:04:32.208
And that in some respects might hold them back.

1285
01:04:32.248 --> 01:04:34.429
It's also like why I think that this person is amazing.

1286
01:04:35.410 --> 01:04:40.153
But getting through like an interview process or those sort of social dynamics would be really tough, right?

1287
01:04:40.354 --> 01:04:42.855
And this takes us back to why conversation is essential.

1288
01:04:43.716 --> 01:04:47.979
Very smart people think all about their ideas, their knowledge, the facts.

1289
01:04:48.499 --> 01:04:50.661
But you can be the smartest person in the room.

1290
01:04:51.061 --> 01:04:53.963
But if people don't feel connected to you, they don't believe you're smarts.

1291
01:04:54.764 --> 01:04:56.205
That comes directly from the research.

1292
01:04:56.845 --> 01:05:00.408
Competence without warmth is likely to leave us feeling suspicious.

1293
01:05:01.726 --> 01:05:09.291
So you could be incredibly smart, but if you cannot manage the mechanics of connective conversation, people feel suspicious.

1294
01:05:09.372 --> 01:05:12.854
It literally triggers a part of their brain that goes, I don't know about this person.

1295
01:05:13.254 --> 01:05:17.698
And so the reason why level one is so critical, but we can't skip it, is what we're doing is we're trying to create ease.

1296
01:05:18.138 --> 01:05:19.739
That's another way of saying warmth, right?

1297
01:05:19.759 --> 01:05:21.881
We're trying to make it so someone feels like they can be understood with us.

1298
01:05:22.161 --> 01:05:23.422
And then if they're understood, they're chosen.

1299
01:05:23.742 --> 01:05:25.263
And if they're chosen, they're loved, right?

1300
01:05:25.283 --> 01:05:26.064
Like it's a three.

1301
01:05:26.504 --> 01:05:29.346
And this actually brings me to the third.

1302
01:05:29.366 --> 01:05:30.427
I'm so bad at this.

1303
01:05:30.467 --> 01:05:30.707
Let's see.

1304
01:05:31.386 --> 01:05:31.866
I would love that.

1305
01:05:32.167 --> 01:05:35.850
So I struggled with this, what are we on, sixth question.

1306
01:05:36.270 --> 01:05:40.014
Because, by the way, I started this research with over 100 questions.

1307
01:05:40.614 --> 01:05:41.355
And I was touching them.

1308
01:05:41.415 --> 01:05:44.118
I mean, I was making everyone try every different kind.

1309
01:05:44.158 --> 01:05:45.459
I was using my students.

1310
01:05:45.479 --> 01:05:46.099
They were trying them.

1311
01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:46.480
I was teaching.

1312
01:05:46.560 --> 01:05:48.301
Also, I wanted to make sure they worked at work.

1313
01:05:48.962 --> 01:05:50.563
They worked at home and they worked with kids.

1314
01:05:51.303 --> 01:05:55.086
You can do a lot of these and you have to alter them slightly, but I want to make sure they work across the board.

1315
01:05:55.946 --> 01:05:58.948
And the sixth question is actually a signature question.

1316
01:05:59.668 --> 01:06:04.871
So this is taking a step back and thinking, what do you love to talk about?

1317
01:06:05.712 --> 01:06:07.313
What do you love to talk about in conversation?

1318
01:06:07.413 --> 01:06:08.874
What do you love to talk about in conversation?

1319
01:06:10.154 --> 01:06:10.795
When you're talking.

1320
01:06:11.475 --> 01:06:12.636
What do I love to talk about?

1321
01:06:12.676 --> 01:06:14.657
Yeah, not hear about necessarily, but talk about.

1322
01:06:15.300 --> 01:06:15.700
Oh, gosh.

1323
01:06:15.820 --> 01:06:17.081
We're going to reverse engineer it.

1324
01:06:17.181 --> 01:06:19.181
This sixth question is about reverse engineering your love.

1325
01:06:19.782 --> 01:06:22.683
I like to talk about psychology of people and stuff.

1326
01:06:22.903 --> 01:06:23.463
Okay, okay.

1327
01:06:23.483 --> 01:06:24.003
So great.

1328
01:06:24.043 --> 01:06:28.345
Okay, so you would want to reverse engineer questions about how and why.

1329
01:06:28.845 --> 01:06:32.606
If you love psychology and behavior, you're going to want to ask someone, why did you make that choice?

1330
01:06:33.246 --> 01:06:34.807
You know, what made you choose that path?

1331
01:06:35.147 --> 01:06:36.567
You're going to want to ask more behavioral questions.

1332
01:06:36.847 --> 01:06:39.428
Even in an interviewing perspective, let's talk about this for a second.

1333
01:06:39.448 --> 01:06:41.609
So I believe in behavioral interviewing.

1334
01:06:41.849 --> 01:06:43.550
I believe in interview questions that actually...

1335
01:06:44.530 --> 01:06:46.912
Let you know about someone's behavior, not just their opinions.

1336
01:06:47.553 --> 01:06:52.056
So, for example, interviewers will make the mistake of asking, what's your greatest weakness?

1337
01:06:53.437 --> 01:06:56.740
It's not a good question because they're going to answer with a prepared answer.

1338
01:06:57.480 --> 01:06:58.181
It's not going to be real.

1339
01:06:58.401 --> 01:06:59.222
It's not going to tell you much.

1340
01:06:59.662 --> 01:07:04.486
I would rather you ask, what would your last manager say is your greatest weakness?

1341
01:07:06.355 --> 01:07:07.376
That's a very different question.

1342
01:07:07.436 --> 01:07:09.557
First of all, it's not going to be as practiced.

1343
01:07:09.817 --> 01:07:10.958
Maybe after now it will be.

1344
01:07:11.779 --> 01:07:14.000
But you're asking the person to step outside themselves.

1345
01:07:14.120 --> 01:07:20.364
From a behavior perspective, when we step outside of ourselves and think about someone else's opinion, we see different things, even about ourselves.

1346
01:07:21.065 --> 01:07:23.827
And likely, they're going to call your previous manager.

1347
01:07:24.707 --> 01:07:24.827
Right?

1348
01:07:24.847 --> 01:07:26.769
So they can confirm that in a phone call.

1349
01:07:26.789 --> 01:07:31.492
And you could even say, you know, when I call your previous manager, what would your previous manager say is your greatest weakness?

1350
01:07:31.512 --> 01:07:31.972
Right.

1351
01:07:32.485 --> 01:07:33.806
you're going to get a juicy answer, right?

1352
01:07:33.826 --> 01:07:34.766
And then you can go verify it.

1353
01:07:35.686 --> 01:07:44.830
Another behavioral technique, which is why I like behavior so much, is not just asking, tell me about a recent time that you managed a project, right?

1354
01:07:44.850 --> 01:07:46.290
We always ask for examples in an interview.

1355
01:07:47.051 --> 01:07:50.072
That's okay, but not great because they're going to pick the best one.

1356
01:07:50.692 --> 01:07:55.034
What you're better off saying is, tell me about the most recent time you managed a project.

1357
01:07:56.038 --> 01:08:00.279
It should be in the last three months, two months, not a year or two ago.

1358
01:08:00.939 --> 01:08:03.439
So asking for recency, asking for other people's opinions.

1359
01:08:04.200 --> 01:08:09.040
The reason why I say this is because that would be crafting a type of answer that you want.

1360
01:08:09.701 --> 01:08:13.281
Trying to craft information about a previous experience that is real and not rehearsed.

1361
01:08:13.781 --> 01:08:20.083
So for you, you'd be wanting to ask more behavior questions when you're at dinner, when you're here, obviously, because that's what you love.

1362
01:08:20.603 --> 01:08:21.963
Many success people have...

1363
01:08:22.859 --> 01:08:23.620
Signature questions.

1364
01:08:23.640 --> 01:08:28.224
Like I know Amy Poehler at the end of her podcast, she always asks, what are you laughing about?

1365
01:08:28.364 --> 01:08:29.665
What's making you laugh recently?

1366
01:08:29.786 --> 01:08:30.927
That's her signature question.

1367
01:08:31.707 --> 01:08:39.995
Example I use in the book is Ginny Urich has a challenge a thousand hours outside, which is spending a thousand hours with her kids outside, playing more outside off of screens.

1368
01:08:40.416 --> 01:08:44.319
And she asks everyone in her podcast, what was your favorite outdoor memory?

1369
01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:47.662
Because she loves talking about outdoors and childhood nostalgia.

1370
01:08:48.363 --> 01:08:51.466
So the sixth question is inviting, what do you love to talk about?

1371
01:08:51.947 --> 01:08:56.211
How can we engineer that in your conversations by looking for opportunities to bring it up?

1372
01:08:58.097 --> 01:09:03.820
At this stage, I would turn to somebody when I feel like I've got that depth with them and I'd say, what do you love to talk about?

1373
01:09:04.240 --> 01:09:06.402
And they might say, you know, I really love talking about sports.

1374
01:09:06.822 --> 01:09:11.324
And then are you saying that opens a door and gives me a clue as to how to connect with them?

1375
01:09:11.344 --> 01:09:16.107
So future conversations with them should orientate towards sports or psychology, whatever their answer was.

1376
01:09:16.447 --> 01:09:18.908
No, it would be, you can ask, what do you love to talk about?

1377
01:09:19.109 --> 01:09:21.950
It would be, you, Stephen, love to talk about behavior.

1378
01:09:22.310 --> 01:09:24.772
So you are going to ask more behavioral questions of them.

1379
01:09:25.820 --> 01:09:27.662
So you get to create your sixth question.

1380
01:09:28.703 --> 01:09:28.863
Right.

1381
01:09:28.883 --> 01:09:34.688
So like right now, because I'm talking about conversation, my signature question is, what's your favorite conversation starter?

1382
01:09:35.208 --> 01:09:35.509
Okay.

1383
01:09:35.849 --> 01:09:35.969
Right.

1384
01:09:35.989 --> 01:09:39.732
When I was researching cues, it was, who's the most charismatic person you know?

1385
01:09:40.913 --> 01:09:44.356
When I was researching captivate, it was, what's your favorite body language cue?

1386
01:09:44.817 --> 01:09:44.937
Right.

1387
01:09:44.957 --> 01:09:46.138
Or do you ever think about body language?

1388
01:09:46.418 --> 01:09:49.381
So it can change based on your interest, but you're creating it for yourself.

1389
01:09:49.541 --> 01:09:49.741
Okay.

1390
01:09:49.761 --> 01:09:50.762
So this one's a bespoke one.

1391
01:09:50.782 --> 01:09:52.464
You get to write this one yourself.

1392
01:09:52.504 --> 01:09:53.324
Yes, exactly.

1393
01:09:53.364 --> 01:09:53.745
Exactly.

1394
01:09:54.165 --> 01:09:54.465
Got you.

1395
01:09:54.665 --> 01:09:55.806
So I'm interested in psychology.

1396
01:09:55.826 --> 01:09:58.789
So this one would be psychology related topics for me.

1397
01:09:58.969 --> 01:09:59.129
Right.

1398
01:09:59.249 --> 01:10:00.790
Or like what drives you.

1399
01:10:00.810 --> 01:10:03.832
I actually think that some of the level three questions might interest you, but I'm curious.

1400
01:10:04.193 --> 01:10:04.333
Okay.

1401
01:10:04.353 --> 01:10:04.693
Let's see.

1402
01:10:04.913 --> 01:10:05.113
All right.

1403
01:10:05.133 --> 01:10:05.494
Level three.

1404
01:10:05.534 --> 01:10:05.954
Are you ready?

1405
01:10:06.294 --> 01:10:07.095
Wait, before we do level three.

1406
01:10:07.115 --> 01:10:07.355
Yes.

1407
01:10:07.475 --> 01:10:08.636
Just want to close off on this.

1408
01:10:08.896 --> 01:10:10.117
Do you talk too much test?

1409
01:10:10.637 --> 01:10:10.878
Okay.

1410
01:10:10.898 --> 01:10:14.380
So I have a, do you talk too much test in the book?

1411
01:10:14.440 --> 01:10:14.881
It's right here.

1412
01:10:14.901 --> 01:10:16.142
So you're going to ask yourself.

1413
01:10:16.991 --> 01:10:20.034
I leave a conversation realizing I don't know much about the other person.

1414
01:10:20.674 --> 01:10:20.894
Okay.

1415
01:10:21.194 --> 01:10:23.336
That's a secret curiosity question.

1416
01:10:23.757 --> 01:10:25.018
So there's five questions here.

1417
01:10:26.097 --> 01:10:30.338
And if you answer often more than three times, you're probably an overtalker.

1418
01:10:30.398 --> 01:10:30.778
That's it.

1419
01:10:31.218 --> 01:10:34.679
And all of them secretly, Stephen, are saying, are you curious enough?

1420
01:10:34.699 --> 01:10:35.520
Okay.

1421
01:10:35.540 --> 01:10:35.660
Right?

1422
01:10:35.680 --> 01:10:37.500
Because we know that curiosity is the antidote.

1423
01:10:37.920 --> 01:10:42.281
So I put this right at the end of level one, because you really can't go to level two if you're talking too much.

1424
01:10:42.902 --> 01:10:43.162
Okay.

1425
01:10:43.342 --> 01:10:44.122
You're not curious enough.

1426
01:10:44.262 --> 01:10:45.162
You're not going to learn their dream.

1427
01:10:45.562 --> 01:10:46.122
So question one.

1428
01:10:46.142 --> 01:10:51.044
So if I say yes to three of these, then I'm probably an overtalker.

1429
01:10:51.084 --> 01:10:51.384
Correct.

1430
01:10:51.404 --> 01:10:54.945
So first one is I leave a conversation realizing I didn't know much about the other person.

1431
01:10:55.025 --> 01:10:55.385
Mm-hmm.

1432
01:10:56.182 --> 01:10:56.722
I'd say rarely.

1433
01:10:57.563 --> 01:11:00.505
After I finish speaking, people nod politely but don't always respond.

1434
01:11:02.226 --> 01:11:02.626
Sometimes.

1435
01:11:03.007 --> 01:11:03.127
Oh.

1436
01:11:03.547 --> 01:11:07.470
I love telling long, detailed stories, especially when people are too polite to interrupt.

1437
01:11:08.791 --> 01:11:10.452
Do you ever tell a long, detailed story?

1438
01:11:10.612 --> 01:11:13.234
Only when I'm on stage and someone has paid me to.

1439
01:11:13.254 --> 01:11:13.774
That doesn't count.

1440
01:11:13.994 --> 01:11:14.254
Okay.

1441
01:11:14.274 --> 01:11:14.655
Doesn't count.

1442
01:11:15.115 --> 01:11:15.795
Sometimes, I'd say.

1443
01:11:16.416 --> 01:11:19.558
I've been told gently or not so gently that I talk a lot.

1444
01:11:19.578 --> 01:11:19.818
Okay.

1445
01:11:21.298 --> 01:11:21.598
Rarely.

1446
01:11:21.878 --> 01:11:22.978
I've never been told that.

1447
01:11:22.998 --> 01:11:26.299
Number five, while I'm mid-story, I notice people glance around the room.

1448
01:11:26.979 --> 01:11:27.379
Sometimes.

1449
01:11:28.059 --> 01:11:28.820
So you pass.

1450
01:11:29.220 --> 01:11:29.460
Okay.

1451
01:11:29.740 --> 01:11:31.920
Now, I could have told you that also, but yeah, you pass.

1452
01:11:32.480 --> 01:11:32.680
Okay.

1453
01:11:32.700 --> 01:11:38.341
So it's really important because it might be creating conversational friction, right, especially at work.

1454
01:11:38.942 --> 01:11:42.102
And the best muscle you can do is asking more, talking less.

1455
01:11:42.842 --> 01:11:45.143
And a challenge, a very specific challenge...

1456
01:11:46.243 --> 01:11:47.925
please do a yap challenge.

1457
01:11:48.045 --> 01:11:49.166
Do you know what a yap challenge is?

1458
01:11:49.486 --> 01:11:50.246
Ooh, a yap challenge.

1459
01:11:50.267 --> 01:11:56.392
A yap challenge is you open up your phone camera and you teach something or share an opinion about something without notes.

1460
01:11:57.673 --> 01:11:58.333
And you hit record.

1461
01:11:59.174 --> 01:12:02.397
If you go naturally 15 or 30 seconds, you're probably good.

1462
01:12:03.057 --> 01:12:04.559
If you're hitting 45 seconds, that's the max.

1463
01:12:04.619 --> 01:12:06.981
If you're up to a minute or two minutes, you probably talk too much.

1464
01:12:08.056 --> 01:12:08.736
Hmm.

1465
01:12:08.757 --> 01:12:17.422
About yourself or just about yourself, but like that, that your typical answering length is longer than conversationally appropriate to a question about you.

1466
01:12:17.442 --> 01:12:21.845
A yap challenge could be share your opinion about veganism.

1467
01:12:23.026 --> 01:12:23.286
Damn.

1468
01:12:23.326 --> 01:12:25.087
I didn't think I could get that done in 15 seconds.

1469
01:12:26.768 --> 01:12:27.509
What's your answer?

1470
01:12:27.589 --> 01:12:28.349
No, not to veganism.

1471
01:12:28.369 --> 01:12:31.371
Just generally like if it's an idea, everything in my head is a story first.

1472
01:12:31.391 --> 01:12:32.312
So it's like, you know what though?

1473
01:12:32.552 --> 01:12:33.133
Introverts can

1474
01:12:34.215 --> 01:12:35.736
Introverts absolutely can.

1475
01:12:35.756 --> 01:12:36.776
And they'll often go too short.

1476
01:12:37.216 --> 01:12:37.617
Okay.

1477
01:12:37.637 --> 01:12:40.038
Like, for example, I'll give you a yap challenge that I was just thinking about the other day.

1478
01:12:40.058 --> 01:12:41.298
And we're going to do it on social media.

1479
01:12:41.378 --> 01:12:42.199
We'll do it together.

1480
01:12:42.999 --> 01:12:43.719
Yap challenge.

1481
01:12:44.460 --> 01:12:48.621
Someone recently asked my friend out by asking for her Instagram handle, not her number.

1482
01:12:49.142 --> 01:12:49.902
Agree or disagree.

1483
01:12:52.393 --> 01:12:53.013
It depends.

1484
01:12:53.634 --> 01:12:53.794
On?

1485
01:12:54.794 --> 01:12:56.355
Her vibe.

1486
01:12:56.816 --> 01:12:58.597
What energy was she giving and what was the context?

1487
01:12:58.797 --> 01:12:59.997
Was that after a two-hour date?

1488
01:13:00.057 --> 01:13:01.578
Was that... Just meeting her on the street.

1489
01:13:01.598 --> 01:13:02.359
Rolled up on the street?

1490
01:13:02.659 --> 01:13:03.479
I think it's actually...

1491
01:13:03.580 --> 01:13:04.140
I agree then.

1492
01:13:04.340 --> 01:13:06.581
Because it's less invasive.

1493
01:13:07.382 --> 01:13:09.203
It's like, I will earn your number.

1494
01:13:10.664 --> 01:13:11.364
Oh, wow.

1495
01:13:11.444 --> 01:13:13.125
Give me the chance to earn your number.

1496
01:13:13.305 --> 01:13:14.186
Okay, you just convinced me.

1497
01:13:14.506 --> 01:13:15.126
That's interesting.

1498
01:13:15.146 --> 01:13:17.127
So, by the way, I think that was, what, 12 seconds?

1499
01:13:17.407 --> 01:13:18.028
Okay, yeah, maybe.

1500
01:13:18.208 --> 01:13:18.368
Right?

1501
01:13:18.388 --> 01:13:19.589
So, like, you're keeping it tight.

1502
01:13:19.609 --> 01:13:19.809
Yeah.

1503
01:13:20.672 --> 01:13:22.894
I disagree, but that is an interesting nuance.

1504
01:13:24.436 --> 01:13:26.998
I'm not going to give you my Instagram because my Instagram is performative.

1505
01:13:27.198 --> 01:13:28.599
Everyone's Instagram is performative.

1506
01:13:29.340 --> 01:13:33.284
If you are looking at my Instagram, it's like saying, I don't want to get to know you through conversation.

1507
01:13:33.364 --> 01:13:36.727
I'm going to look through everything and know everything about you before I decide if I want to take you out.

1508
01:13:38.077 --> 01:13:40.179
And you take the joy out of discovery.

1509
01:13:40.920 --> 01:13:43.342
If I'm with you and I'm like, do you have any pets?

1510
01:13:44.082 --> 01:13:45.363
And you're like, yeah, I have a dog.

1511
01:13:45.744 --> 01:13:47.225
Then I can say, oh, how'd you get the dog?

1512
01:13:47.405 --> 01:13:48.206
What's the dog's name?

1513
01:13:48.386 --> 01:13:49.307
How'd you choose that name?

1514
01:13:49.587 --> 01:13:52.810
Versus, oh, look, she has a dog named Stewie.

1515
01:13:53.974 --> 01:13:58.115
But, you know, your number is reserved for people in your like personal, professional life.

1516
01:13:58.135 --> 01:14:04.516
So what you're saying, if you roll up on the street, is you're saying, let me in to your personal and professional environment, stranger.

1517
01:14:05.276 --> 01:14:11.978
Whereas the public environment, which is Instagram, is, I think, a much more socially appropriate place to invite oneself into.

1518
01:14:12.278 --> 01:14:13.298
Okay, let's fight about this.

1519
01:14:13.478 --> 01:14:13.698
Okay.

1520
01:14:14.418 --> 01:14:17.139
If you do that, your conversation is going to be more awkward on your first date.

1521
01:14:17.869 --> 01:14:18.349
Because?

1522
01:14:18.569 --> 01:14:20.870
Because you feel like you've already learned about the person.

1523
01:14:21.730 --> 01:14:28.472
So maybe you're discovering more of their public persona, but you've seen their kind of friends, where they hang out, what they do on the weekends.

1524
01:14:28.492 --> 01:14:29.372
Do they hike or not?

1525
01:14:29.392 --> 01:14:30.233
Do they have any pets?

1526
01:14:30.273 --> 01:14:31.313
Oh, look, there they are at Thanksgiving.

1527
01:14:31.333 --> 01:14:32.273
They have lots of siblings.

1528
01:14:32.933 --> 01:14:39.615
This is, I think, why we're having awkward first date conversations, why first dates have gotten even worse, is because you're on the first date.

1529
01:14:39.635 --> 01:14:41.776
You've already discovered all level one stuff that you think you know.

1530
01:14:42.596 --> 01:14:47.279
So now, even though you have your very first conversation, you kind of have to go to level two.

1531
01:14:48.160 --> 01:14:50.341
It's so much harder and it's unnatural.

1532
01:14:51.121 --> 01:14:57.345
It's unnatural to know all this information that wasn't transmitted human to human, that was done in a performative way.

1533
01:14:57.926 --> 01:14:59.307
And then you have to get in person and...

1534
01:15:00.167 --> 01:15:03.268
It's harder to come up with conversation starters because you already know a lot.

1535
01:15:03.909 --> 01:15:09.511
I also think what I would say is if someone were to, I'm not single, I haven't been single a long time, but if someone would say, can I have your Instagram?

1536
01:15:09.971 --> 01:15:13.833
I would say, you know, I have one for just friends and family, but maybe you can get there one day.

1537
01:15:14.812 --> 01:15:15.452
You would say that?

1538
01:15:15.512 --> 01:15:15.933
Yeah, I would.

1539
01:15:16.373 --> 01:15:18.634
If I could, I would never.

1540
01:15:18.734 --> 01:15:21.275
Because I want you to chat me, right?

1541
01:15:21.295 --> 01:15:23.136
Like, I don't want to show you my Instagram.

1542
01:15:23.156 --> 01:15:24.116
You're going to see everything.

1543
01:15:24.136 --> 01:15:26.557
And like, I'd rather like, like, let's banter.

1544
01:15:26.577 --> 01:15:27.478
Like, let's chat.

1545
01:15:27.498 --> 01:15:27.998
Are you funny?

1546
01:15:28.018 --> 01:15:30.019
Are you going to ask me good questions?

1547
01:15:30.179 --> 01:15:31.679
Are you going to be a confrontational narcissist?

1548
01:15:31.699 --> 01:15:34.601
And then ask me after dinner if it's going well over text or over the phone.

1549
01:15:35.767 --> 01:15:39.088
So you think less context results in better conversations?

1550
01:15:39.128 --> 01:15:48.511
So just having their WhatsApp or their iMessage is gonna result in more interesting conversations than me knowing that you like hiking and puppies, and me being able to be like, have you got a Labradoodle too?

1551
01:15:48.591 --> 01:15:52.113
Oh my God, my Labradoodle is just giving birth to a couple of triplets.

1552
01:15:52.413 --> 01:15:52.653
Yes.

1553
01:15:53.413 --> 01:15:55.293
and less performative context.

1554
01:15:55.834 --> 01:15:58.854
Like our social feeds are not 100% real.

1555
01:15:59.314 --> 01:16:02.615
So it's not like you were listening to me talk about something.

1556
01:16:03.015 --> 01:16:06.136
It's a curated highlight reel of my life.

1557
01:16:06.576 --> 01:16:07.916
So you feel like you know me.

1558
01:16:07.956 --> 01:16:14.718
Like people who follow me on Instagram, like they might feel like they know me, but my life is quite different than my Instagram in the sense of I show a very small piece of what I do.

1559
01:16:14.778 --> 01:16:15.838
Same right with you, right?

1560
01:16:16.298 --> 01:16:18.559
And so I know I'm not single, but if I was

1561
01:16:23.960 --> 01:16:31.583
I would have no casual level one banter with them that is critical, socially critical for me to understand their basics.

1562
01:16:32.084 --> 01:16:35.345
And so when we skip level one, we do damage to our potential connection later.

1563
01:16:35.445 --> 01:16:37.506
We create more awkwardness and more friction for ourselves.

1564
01:16:38.226 --> 01:16:42.528
So my challenge for single people is stop asking for handles and ask for numbers.

1565
01:16:44.069 --> 01:16:45.129
Are people going to get mad at me?

1566
01:16:46.957 --> 01:16:48.858
Well, a lot of them are meeting via dating apps now.

1567
01:16:48.918 --> 01:16:49.218
For sure.

1568
01:16:49.258 --> 01:16:51.058
And I think that's okay.

1569
01:16:51.118 --> 01:16:53.239
A dating app is much more limited than an endless feed.

1570
01:16:53.259 --> 01:16:57.480
It's like, I don't know how many photos are on dating apps these days, but that's like the most performative.

1571
01:16:57.500 --> 01:16:58.600
It's like, look at me at the gym.

1572
01:16:58.620 --> 01:16:59.701
Look at this car that I bought.

1573
01:16:59.741 --> 01:17:00.561
But it's not forever.

1574
01:17:00.581 --> 01:17:03.182
Like, you can't go back to someone's Instagram since they were in high school.

1575
01:17:03.522 --> 01:17:03.642
Right?

1576
01:17:03.662 --> 01:17:06.482
Like, you know it's six images or ten images.

1577
01:17:06.502 --> 01:17:08.363
You have these pre-subscribed questions.

1578
01:17:08.383 --> 01:17:09.483
Like, I'm actually okay with that.

1579
01:17:09.503 --> 01:17:10.183
I love dating apps.

1580
01:17:10.203 --> 01:17:12.344
I think that actually they can really connect people very quickly.

1581
01:17:12.604 --> 01:17:13.844
But you don't know everything about you.

1582
01:17:13.864 --> 01:17:15.525
You don't feel like you know everything about me.

1583
01:17:15.805 --> 01:17:17.486
I feel like people on dating apps hate dating apps.

1584
01:17:17.786 --> 01:17:18.446
Of course.

1585
01:17:19.587 --> 01:17:20.027
Of course.

1586
01:17:20.067 --> 01:17:23.729
But how else are we going to meet people if we have our AirPods in all the time?

1587
01:17:24.510 --> 01:17:25.790
You're not going to meet people if you're at the gym.

1588
01:17:25.810 --> 01:17:26.591
We talked about this last time.

1589
01:17:26.891 --> 01:17:30.313
If you have your AirPods in at the gym and someone wants to hit on you, you're not going to hear it.

1590
01:17:31.324 --> 01:17:32.446
So we have to use dating apps.

1591
01:17:32.486 --> 01:17:33.948
I think they're the only way that we'll be able to connect.

1592
01:17:33.968 --> 01:17:35.850
So I'm actually, I'm pro dating app.

1593
01:17:36.231 --> 01:17:41.918
Of course, I would love for people to approach in person, but I'm not pro not talking first.

1594
01:17:42.519 --> 01:17:46.204
And I think if someone asks for your handle, you're fair to say, it's just for my friends and family.

1595
01:17:46.264 --> 01:17:46.985
Let's try to get there.

1596
01:17:47.385 --> 01:17:48.487
Okay, I concede.

1597
01:17:50.247 --> 01:17:51.348
No, I think it makes sense.

1598
01:17:51.408 --> 01:17:51.868
It doesn't make sense.

1599
01:17:51.888 --> 01:17:52.248
Okay, we did it.

1600
01:17:52.288 --> 01:17:53.089
It's hard to repeat.

1601
01:17:53.109 --> 01:17:57.251
Okay, so this is a wonderful level, but it's reserved for your most important people.

1602
01:17:58.132 --> 01:18:09.559
I think a mistake that people make is they are afraid of going too deep too quickly, and they're afraid of going deep in conversation because it feels scary to be vulnerable.

1603
01:18:10.179 --> 01:18:10.760
And are they right?

1604
01:18:11.400 --> 01:18:11.880
They are right.

1605
01:18:11.900 --> 01:18:12.561
Okay.

1606
01:18:13.241 --> 01:18:19.105
If we go too deep too quickly, especially at work, and I wrote this book with work in mind, people are going to think you're weird.

1607
01:18:19.125 --> 01:18:19.465
Right.

1608
01:18:20.853 --> 01:18:23.034
If we share too much too quickly, it's going to be weird.

1609
01:18:23.654 --> 01:18:26.075
And there is such a thing as vulnerability regret.

1610
01:18:26.875 --> 01:18:31.916
Vulnerability regret is you shared something too vulnerable and it wasn't a safe space or it wasn't received well.

1611
01:18:32.556 --> 01:18:35.297
And the heartache that you get from that is soul crushing.

1612
01:18:35.657 --> 01:18:38.718
And if you share something to do or you ask something to do too quickly, you're like, why did I do it?

1613
01:18:38.818 --> 01:18:39.578
It's painful.

1614
01:18:39.778 --> 01:18:41.339
Does that happen to you or no, you don't share.

1615
01:18:43.283 --> 01:18:47.884
No, I've walked away from situations and thought, actually, maybe that wasn't the appropriate situation to share that.

1616
01:18:47.924 --> 01:18:54.626
But I've also been in situations, I immediately thought of a meeting I had two weeks ago where I was interviewing someone.

1617
01:18:54.726 --> 01:19:03.208
And the first 25 minutes of the interview, they shared some really, really personal things about their very early childhood that I...

1618
01:19:04.628 --> 01:19:12.192
I almost had to adjust myself to, you know, I thought I was going into an interview to like meet them and ask them about work stuff.

1619
01:19:12.292 --> 01:19:17.414
But I almost felt myself pivoting away being like, oh my gosh, I have to be more of a counselor or something.

1620
01:19:17.514 --> 01:19:17.674
Yeah.

1621
01:19:17.854 --> 01:19:20.015
And so I think that we actually have to gate level three.

1622
01:19:20.556 --> 01:19:20.676
Right.

1623
01:19:20.696 --> 01:19:21.556
I think we actually have to gate.

1624
01:19:21.976 --> 01:19:26.419
And it's been a little confusing culturally because I think that we are loving vulnerability and that's really good.

1625
01:19:26.559 --> 01:19:28.860
And vulnerability and authenticity, there's a very fine line there.

1626
01:19:29.652 --> 01:19:36.433
Like being authentic is great, but being too vulnerable too quickly is very awkward and sometimes not safe.

1627
01:19:37.193 --> 01:19:41.614
So I really share, when we talk about level three, I want you to reserve it for your most important people.

1628
01:19:42.094 --> 01:19:42.274
Okay.

1629
01:19:42.994 --> 01:19:44.595
So level three is called your self-narrative.

1630
01:19:45.115 --> 01:19:48.475
Your self-narrative is the story you tell yourself about yourself.

1631
01:19:49.536 --> 01:19:52.956
It is how you make sense of your journey and purpose in life.

1632
01:19:54.216 --> 01:19:56.917
And the story you tell yourself about yourself is self-creating.

1633
01:19:57.828 --> 01:20:06.915
Meaning, if you have a narrative of hardship and being unlucky, you are probably going to see more hardship and create more bad luck for yourself.

1634
01:20:07.676 --> 01:20:11.339
And they've proven that this, there's actually two types of self-narratives.

1635
01:20:12.019 --> 01:20:15.662
There's a contamination narrative and a redemption narrative.

1636
01:20:16.583 --> 01:20:25.568
People with a redemption narrative, they have a frame around the facts of their life of no matter what they do, no matter what comes their way, they're going to overcome.

1637
01:20:26.468 --> 01:20:29.710
With hard work and grit and resilience, they can overcome anything.

1638
01:20:30.390 --> 01:20:35.113
And what's interesting about this in our research is this narrative, it holds across their life.

1639
01:20:35.833 --> 01:20:44.818
Yes, they're facts of their life, but their work, their love, their parenting, they repeat that same redemption narrative in everything they do.

1640
01:20:45.638 --> 01:20:48.043
The other kind of narrative is a contamination narrative.

1641
01:20:48.824 --> 01:20:50.587
People with a contamination narrative...

1642
01:20:51.701 --> 01:20:57.765
They feel that all the hardship and all the challenge and all the struggle has happened to them and they can't make it through.

1643
01:20:57.945 --> 01:20:58.786
They can't overcome.

1644
01:20:59.326 --> 01:21:03.769
That no matter how hard they've worked their grit, their strength, their resilience, they're a victim of circumstance.

1645
01:21:04.269 --> 01:21:06.751
They typically feel very unlucky and very out of control.

1646
01:21:07.612 --> 01:21:15.617
And when you have that kind of narrative, it's less about the facts of your life and more about the frames of your life, how you're seeing those facts, how you're seeing those facts.

1647
01:21:15.858 --> 01:21:27.681
When you have a contamination narrative or you're in a relationship with someone with a contamination narrative, the only way that I think we can change that, because our narratives are changeable, these are not fixed personality traits, is via conversation.

1648
01:21:28.601 --> 01:21:36.043
So my secret hope with Level 3 conversation is when you're in a safe relationship, when you can truly share who you are, when you feel understood—

1649
01:21:36.763 --> 01:21:38.784
you can maybe rewrite your narrative.

1650
01:21:39.304 --> 01:21:44.546
You can maybe flip from a contamination narrative the frame of how you've seen your facts into redemption.

1651
01:21:44.846 --> 01:21:46.067
And that is my secret goal here.

1652
01:21:48.628 --> 01:21:49.328
So how do we do that?

1653
01:21:49.892 --> 01:21:50.152
Okay.

1654
01:21:50.573 --> 01:21:54.857
The first thing is beginning to uncover what your narrative is and what someone else's narrative is.

1655
01:21:55.618 --> 01:21:58.420
So the first thing we have to understand is how our brain works.

1656
01:21:58.561 --> 01:21:59.782
Our brains are storytellers.

1657
01:22:00.522 --> 01:22:01.383
That's why we love story.

1658
01:22:01.403 --> 01:22:03.045
In level one, it was kind of a warm-up.

1659
01:22:03.065 --> 01:22:08.150
Like when we're telling a story about our passions and our side hustles, we're also telling a story about ourselves all the time.

1660
01:22:08.951 --> 01:22:10.692
And so we've told a story about ourselves.

1661
01:22:11.253 --> 01:22:13.795
And there are what I call narrative hints.

1662
01:22:14.992 --> 01:22:18.194
In conversation, people will leak the kind of narrative that they have.

1663
01:22:18.214 --> 01:22:21.796
So they might say, oh, everyone always zigs and I zag.

1664
01:22:22.817 --> 01:22:24.558
Gosh, everything bad always happens to me.

1665
01:22:24.778 --> 01:22:26.900
Oh, of course, of course, yet another thing.

1666
01:22:28.050 --> 01:22:35.174
If people have superlatives, always, never, they tend to be more of a contamination person.

1667
01:22:35.735 --> 01:22:39.797
People who are in that contamination narrative space, they tend to see things as very black and white.

1668
01:22:39.817 --> 01:22:45.381
They tend to see things as permanent versus redemption people tend to leak positive hints and they feel very lucky.

1669
01:22:45.401 --> 01:22:48.883
They say, oh, good things always happen to me or there's always a silver lining.

1670
01:22:49.463 --> 01:22:50.724
Oh, yeah, you know, just my luck.

1671
01:22:50.764 --> 01:22:51.284
I got it.

1672
01:22:51.304 --> 01:22:51.844
Right?

1673
01:22:51.864 --> 01:22:54.526
They're saying things about how it's happening.

1674
01:22:54.546 --> 01:22:55.827
They're leaking their narratives.

1675
01:22:55.907 --> 01:22:56.047
Right?

1676
01:22:56.168 --> 01:22:58.109
Who ends up being more successful, happy, and healthy?

1677
01:22:58.470 --> 01:23:00.471
Absolutely people with redemptive narratives.

1678
01:23:00.851 --> 01:23:07.556
They have found that people with redemption narratives, they live longer, they have better immune systems, they have better connections, they feel happier.

1679
01:23:07.856 --> 01:23:10.238
And that is because they feel they can handle whatever is thrown at them.

1680
01:23:10.258 --> 01:23:12.639
They have a great internal locus of control.

1681
01:23:12.679 --> 01:23:15.321
They feel that no matter what comes at them, they can handle it.

1682
01:23:15.821 --> 01:23:17.603
And the good news is this is learnable, right?

1683
01:23:17.623 --> 01:23:23.607
If we begin to talk about our narratives with our children, with our partners, we can begin to teach them actually you have growth here.

1684
01:23:23.627 --> 01:23:25.168
You have agency over your narrative.

1685
01:23:25.408 --> 01:23:31.090
This internal locus of control thing is something that I learned about when I was probably 16 or 17 in psychology class.

1686
01:23:31.130 --> 01:23:31.330
Yeah.

1687
01:23:31.870 --> 01:23:35.592
And what does it mean and what does the study say about the importance of it?

1688
01:23:35.852 --> 01:23:40.494
So an internal locus of control means that you feel that you're in control.

1689
01:23:40.534 --> 01:23:48.157
You have agency over your decisions, over what happens to you, that things can happen to you in your life, but you can decide how you interact with them.

1690
01:23:48.177 --> 01:23:49.477
You can decide how you behave.

1691
01:23:50.017 --> 01:23:53.979
People with an external locus of control get their worth from outside sources.

1692
01:23:54.959 --> 01:23:58.343
They feel validated when someone else tells them they look good.

1693
01:23:58.643 --> 01:24:01.045
They feel good when someone else tells them they're doing good.

1694
01:24:01.386 --> 01:24:04.249
They're looking for external ways to feel better.

1695
01:24:04.269 --> 01:24:10.115
They look more like, for example, vanity metrics, their likes or their follows, how many friends they have, how often they're invited.

1696
01:24:10.495 --> 01:24:11.596
Are they getting compliments?

1697
01:24:12.617 --> 01:24:17.762
The analogy I was thinking of then is it's almost like you either think you're a bird or you think you're on a roller coaster.

1698
01:24:18.483 --> 01:24:19.023
Tell me more.

1699
01:24:19.224 --> 01:24:21.145
You know, a roller coaster has a fixed track.

1700
01:24:21.305 --> 01:24:21.485
Uh-huh.

1701
01:24:21.725 --> 01:24:23.186
Really irrespective of what you do.

1702
01:24:23.246 --> 01:24:24.867
It's going to go up, down, left, right.

1703
01:24:24.887 --> 01:24:25.128
Boopy.

1704
01:24:25.168 --> 01:24:26.148
Spin.

1705
01:24:26.408 --> 01:24:28.230
And you're just holding on and going with it.

1706
01:24:28.450 --> 01:24:32.393
Whereas a bird feels like it has the agency to go anywhere.

1707
01:24:32.573 --> 01:24:32.853
No rail.

1708
01:24:32.893 --> 01:24:34.454
No rail, yeah.

1709
01:24:34.474 --> 01:24:37.836
And some people, I think, do think that they're on a roller coaster.

1710
01:24:37.876 --> 01:24:38.076
Yeah.

1711
01:24:38.457 --> 01:24:38.897
On a track.

1712
01:24:38.917 --> 01:24:44.221
I mean, look, I don't want to get too deep, but if we were in a normal conversation, I would ask you about fate.

1713
01:24:44.261 --> 01:24:44.361
Yeah.

1714
01:24:45.021 --> 01:24:50.284
You know, I think there's questions that can begin to uncover someone's level three.

1715
01:24:50.704 --> 01:24:51.405
Do you believe in luck?

1716
01:24:51.585 --> 01:24:52.365
Do you believe you're lucky?

1717
01:24:53.326 --> 01:24:54.226
Do you believe in fate?

1718
01:24:54.787 --> 01:25:02.831
I think if you believe in fate, you're more likely to believe that you're on a roller coaster, that you're on a ride that is predetermined, and now it's up, and then it's going to go down, and they're going to have a loop.

1719
01:25:03.352 --> 01:25:13.697
So I wonder, I don't know, if someone has a high belief in faith or predetermined fate, if they would feel an external locus of control, and maybe that wouldn't be as good for their mental health.

1720
01:25:14.038 --> 01:25:14.338
I wonder.

1721
01:25:15.764 --> 01:25:19.667
I've done almost 700 interviews with some of the most interesting people in the world.

1722
01:25:19.727 --> 01:25:25.192
And one of the things you learn, which is unexpected, is that vulnerability is the doorway to connection.

1723
01:25:25.212 --> 01:25:30.096
And after sitting here for two, three hours with a guest, I feel a deep sense of connection to them.

1724
01:25:30.216 --> 01:25:36.461
And as they leave, what I get them to do is to write a question in the diary of a CEO.

1725
01:25:36.541 --> 01:25:39.063
We've taken all of the questions from the diary of a CEO.

1726
01:25:39.203 --> 01:25:41.064
We have put the question...

1727
01:25:41.890 --> 01:25:44.991
here on this card with the name of the person that wrote it.

1728
01:25:45.111 --> 01:25:49.672
So you can sit at home as I do with my fiance and my colleagues at work and other people in my life.

1729
01:25:49.992 --> 01:25:54.054
Whenever we get a minute, we play the Diary of a CEO conversation cards.

1730
01:25:54.214 --> 01:25:56.634
And it is incredible what happens.

1731
01:25:56.714 --> 01:25:58.795
These are great if you're in a romantic relationship.

1732
01:25:59.015 --> 01:26:00.296
and you want to connect your partner more.

1733
01:26:00.316 --> 01:26:03.719
These are also great if you're in a team and you want to bond your team together.

1734
01:26:03.939 --> 01:26:14.568
And I have to say, they're also great for families that want to learn more about each other and that need a good excuse to spend some time in a digital world, in the analog environment, connecting human to human.

1735
01:26:14.808 --> 01:26:18.932
It is remarkable what the right question at the right time can do.

1736
01:26:19.092 --> 01:26:23.836
Go to thediary.com and you can get these conversation cards right now.

1737
01:26:25.237 --> 01:26:27.739
So going back to this idea of these contaminators.

1738
01:26:28.059 --> 01:26:32.541
So we're listening for narrative hints and we can ask questions like, are you lucky?

1739
01:26:33.322 --> 01:26:39.645
By the way, if you ask this question, it's a sneaker because it sounds so casual when you ask, are you lucky?

1740
01:26:40.326 --> 01:26:41.526
But their answer really matters.

1741
01:26:42.267 --> 01:26:44.708
Either there's three answers for are you lucky?

1742
01:26:45.169 --> 01:26:45.849
One, oh, yes.

1743
01:26:46.489 --> 01:26:47.130
Yes, I feel lucky.

1744
01:26:47.230 --> 01:26:49.031
When I asked you this last time, you said yes.

1745
01:26:49.822 --> 01:26:55.203
Yeah, I think I can't look at, I feel like I have so much privilege in my life that I feel like I am lucky.

1746
01:26:55.403 --> 01:26:56.384
Yes, yes.

1747
01:26:56.404 --> 01:26:56.924
I feel the same.

1748
01:26:57.024 --> 01:27:01.125
I'm so grateful that I get to have this super unique career.

1749
01:27:01.585 --> 01:27:02.405
So I feel lucky, you feel lucky.

1750
01:27:02.425 --> 01:27:05.866
So yes, if someone says yes right away, that tells you a lot about them.

1751
01:27:06.446 --> 01:27:09.307
That means they probably have a high amount of gratitude.

1752
01:27:09.787 --> 01:27:13.007
They probably have a high amount of control or agency.

1753
01:27:13.348 --> 01:27:15.328
And they also have confidence.

1754
01:27:15.888 --> 01:27:17.949
The quickness, the speed of their answer matters here.

1755
01:27:20.889 --> 01:27:21.309
what?

1756
01:27:21.870 --> 01:27:24.510
No, I don't think I'm lucky.

1757
01:27:25.691 --> 01:27:27.791
Now, this is a really important thing to know about them.

1758
01:27:27.951 --> 01:27:30.252
And I don't think you should try to change it, right?

1759
01:27:30.272 --> 01:27:34.353
Like I think that that's a version of toxic positivity telling someone, oh, but you're so lucky.

1760
01:27:34.373 --> 01:27:37.014
You know, think of all the things that you should be grateful for.

1761
01:27:37.034 --> 01:27:38.934
Usually that actually makes someone dig in.

1762
01:27:38.954 --> 01:27:40.335
It makes them feel very misunderstood.

1763
01:27:41.015 --> 01:27:44.076
You're the best thing you can do if someone says they don't feel lucky is to understand it.

1764
01:27:45.027 --> 01:27:45.367
Why?

1765
01:27:45.988 --> 01:27:46.808
What are the forces?

1766
01:27:47.149 --> 01:27:48.049
When did that happen?

1767
01:27:48.289 --> 01:27:49.871
Did you ever feel lucky before?

1768
01:27:50.611 --> 01:27:54.254
Sometimes people can flip from lucky to unlucky with a very bad circumstance.

1769
01:27:54.334 --> 01:27:57.656
And it is crucial that you understand that before you judge it.

1770
01:27:58.297 --> 01:28:00.038
So curiosity gets engaged.

1771
01:28:00.058 --> 01:28:03.861
If someone says they're unlucky, I think that's an opportunity to really reach out and meet someone where they're at.

1772
01:28:03.881 --> 01:28:05.282
Because in that moment, they might.

1773
01:28:06.519 --> 01:28:07.699
Are you going to disagree with me?

1774
01:28:07.719 --> 01:28:08.120
No, no, no.

1775
01:28:08.140 --> 01:28:14.882
I was just thinking about how wonderful of a question that is for when you first meet someone in an interview or a first date.

1776
01:28:15.202 --> 01:28:19.003
I was like, maybe I should ask people in an interview, do you think you're lucky?

1777
01:28:19.624 --> 01:28:19.944
You should.

1778
01:28:19.964 --> 01:28:21.464
Because what is that revealing?

1779
01:28:21.584 --> 01:28:24.745
If they say yes, it's revealing… Multitudes, right?

1780
01:28:25.166 --> 01:28:28.107
Their gratitude, their perspective on life, their internal locus of control.

1781
01:28:28.127 --> 01:28:28.967
They're an optimist.

1782
01:28:29.518 --> 01:28:30.438
Often, not always, but often.

1783
01:28:30.458 --> 01:28:31.319
Sometimes it can be realists.

1784
01:28:31.579 --> 01:28:31.819
Okay.

1785
01:28:31.959 --> 01:28:32.159
Right?

1786
01:28:32.199 --> 01:28:35.780
Like, I am objectively lucky because I have all these things that can be realists too.

1787
01:28:36.200 --> 01:28:37.621
But man, you're going to learn a lot.

1788
01:28:37.821 --> 01:28:39.842
The whole point of level three is predicting behavior.

1789
01:28:40.842 --> 01:28:43.823
If you know their luck, you're going to be able to predict behavior.

1790
01:28:44.177 --> 01:28:48.359
A lot of how they are in a relationship, how they are as a friend, how they are going to be at work.

1791
01:28:48.699 --> 01:28:48.879
Right?

1792
01:28:49.619 --> 01:28:51.620
Fate, I think, is an interesting one to ask someone.

1793
01:28:52.200 --> 01:28:56.442
And then there's other questions that seem silly but actually have tremendous meaning.

1794
01:28:56.542 --> 01:28:58.363
And level three is all about meaning.

1795
01:28:58.723 --> 01:29:05.145
Okay, so the third answer for Lucky Thank You is that person who is afraid to answer.

1796
01:29:05.165 --> 01:29:08.046
And I have asked this question of thousands of people.

1797
01:29:08.246 --> 01:29:12.188
And you get this bucket of, um, well...

1798
01:29:13.853 --> 01:29:14.534
Kind of.

1799
01:29:15.615 --> 01:29:19.838
Now, this is very interesting because this tells you they're probably not that introspective.

1800
01:29:20.278 --> 01:29:21.079
So it's one of two things.

1801
01:29:21.500 --> 01:29:22.460
They actually don't know.

1802
01:29:23.581 --> 01:29:25.303
They literally have not ever thought about it.

1803
01:29:25.323 --> 01:29:27.565
And they will say to you, I've never thought about it.

1804
01:29:27.585 --> 01:29:31.408
And they're literally sitting in front of you, reanalyzing their entire life, trying to answer this question for you.

1805
01:29:31.448 --> 01:29:32.309
They've never considered it.

1806
01:29:32.349 --> 01:29:33.610
So that's also helpful.

1807
01:29:33.890 --> 01:29:34.971
That's helpful.

1808
01:29:35.011 --> 01:29:37.353
If you're in a relationship and someone's not that introspective, that's good to know.

1809
01:29:37.633 --> 01:29:40.155
Not good or bad, just good to know, especially if you value that.

1810
01:29:40.195 --> 01:29:40.355
Like,

1811
01:29:41.156 --> 01:29:42.898
introspection is one of my core values.

1812
01:29:42.978 --> 01:29:45.140
So, you know, it might not bode well for me.

1813
01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:48.222
Or second, they don't feel safe with you yet.

1814
01:29:49.443 --> 01:29:52.166
It can be a hint that you went too fast.

1815
01:29:53.287 --> 01:30:01.654
If someone says, I kind of, or I'm not sure, you might have jumped to level three too quickly and they are not ready to share or they are embarrassed about something.

1816
01:30:02.374 --> 01:30:08.300
They have shame or they have something in their past that they feel is very unlucky, but they don't feel ready to share it.

1817
01:30:09.217 --> 01:30:11.578
Have they done studies on this particular question?

1818
01:30:11.798 --> 01:30:12.758
I think only we have.

1819
01:30:13.318 --> 01:30:13.858
Only you have.

1820
01:30:14.438 --> 01:30:18.719
Richard Wiseman has done a lot of research on luck specifically.

1821
01:30:19.219 --> 01:30:21.960
And there's like a luck test you can give someone.

1822
01:30:22.400 --> 01:30:23.780
We did this in our lab.

1823
01:30:24.140 --> 01:30:27.261
So it's an official luck test to see how lucky you think you are.

1824
01:30:27.281 --> 01:30:28.961
It's like a 10-question diagnostic.

1825
01:30:29.002 --> 01:30:31.142
And it asks all these different variations of that question.

1826
01:30:31.502 --> 01:30:32.722
So it is academically studied.

1827
01:30:33.042 --> 01:30:35.003
But I don't think what's studied, at least not yet, is luck.

1828
01:30:35.743 --> 01:30:38.005
how your answer is going to dictate your life.

1829
01:30:38.646 --> 01:30:43.730
Like, I would love to know, and maybe future research in our lab is, if you consider yourself very lucky, do you make more money?

1830
01:30:43.750 --> 01:30:45.552
Do you make less money?

1831
01:30:45.572 --> 01:30:46.452
Is there any income?

1832
01:30:47.133 --> 01:30:47.753
Are you older?

1833
01:30:48.014 --> 01:30:48.694
Are you younger?

1834
01:30:48.714 --> 01:30:52.798
Are you a child of privilege or not?

1835
01:30:53.819 --> 01:30:55.360
So I think it's coming.

1836
01:30:55.380 --> 01:30:58.443
I mean, I think that's where this excitement kind of comes from.

1837
01:30:58.483 --> 01:31:00.925
At least it gets me excited as a behavior researcher.

1838
01:31:01.972 --> 01:31:05.374
I was just looking at that study by Dr. Richard Wiseman.

1839
01:31:05.414 --> 01:31:12.317
He discovered that people who answer, yes, I am lucky, actually generate their own good fortune by acting in very specific ways.

1840
01:31:12.717 --> 01:31:13.898
They have lower anxiety.

1841
01:31:14.358 --> 01:31:15.779
They have higher extroversion.

1842
01:31:16.039 --> 01:31:19.360
They tend to talk to lots of people and make lots of friendships and relationships.

1843
01:31:19.620 --> 01:31:20.841
High openness to experience.

1844
01:31:20.941 --> 01:31:22.082
Relentless optimism.

1845
01:31:23.142 --> 01:31:24.562
That's very, very interesting.

1846
01:31:24.803 --> 01:31:33.005
I have considered, I've really considered this doing a luck workshop, where all I do in the workshop is help you harvest your own feelings of luck.

1847
01:31:33.885 --> 01:31:36.526
It is so healing.

1848
01:31:36.926 --> 01:31:37.647
It is so...

1849
01:31:38.742 --> 01:31:43.546
fulfilling to feel lucky, to wake up in the day and feel lucky, it's better than gratitude, right?

1850
01:31:43.586 --> 01:31:45.208
Gratitude is sort of shaming in its own way.

1851
01:31:45.228 --> 01:31:46.729
I'm like kind of anti-gratitude.

1852
01:31:47.049 --> 01:31:50.733
But feeling like you're really, really lucky is so empowering.

1853
01:31:50.773 --> 01:31:59.180
And so I've thought about creating Luck Labs, like a little luck workshop where you can come and we're going to convince you that you're lucky because it's that good of an investment in your feelings of happiness.

1854
01:31:59.500 --> 01:32:00.960
I would like to ask the audience.

1855
01:32:00.980 --> 01:32:01.961
I'm just super interested.

1856
01:32:02.121 --> 01:32:06.402
I would like to ask all the people listening now, do you guys feel lucky?

1857
01:32:07.002 --> 01:32:09.122
And I would like honest answers in the comments section.

1858
01:32:09.762 --> 01:32:14.463
And I know you just heard us say that lucky people are going to have better lives.

1859
01:32:15.344 --> 01:32:16.384
Just be completely honest.

1860
01:32:16.584 --> 01:32:18.004
Just for pure research purposes.

1861
01:32:18.224 --> 01:32:18.684
And do you know what?

1862
01:32:18.764 --> 01:32:20.385
I know people that don't feel lucky are going to be honest.

1863
01:32:20.865 --> 01:32:21.205
Because...

1864
01:32:21.545 --> 01:32:22.085
They're going to be honest.

1865
01:32:22.105 --> 01:32:22.666
They're going to be honest.

1866
01:32:22.686 --> 01:32:23.527
And they're going to tell you exactly why.

1867
01:32:23.547 --> 01:32:23.647
Yeah.

1868
01:32:23.667 --> 01:32:26.289
And they're going to get really mad at us because they're going to say that something really bad happened to them.

1869
01:32:26.309 --> 01:32:27.530
And how dare we tell them that luck is good.

1870
01:32:28.030 --> 01:32:29.552
That's what's going to happen because I've heard them do it.

1871
01:32:30.072 --> 01:32:31.353
Can you get mad at Vanessa and not me?

1872
01:32:31.873 --> 01:32:32.994
No, get mad at him.

1873
01:32:33.014 --> 01:32:33.455
No, it's fine.

1874
01:32:33.475 --> 01:32:33.975
You can get mad at me.

1875
01:32:33.995 --> 01:32:34.215
It's fine.

1876
01:32:34.235 --> 01:32:35.436
I have no shell.

1877
01:32:35.496 --> 01:32:41.321
But this is why I'm asking because I want to, I want to, I'm coming from one perspective, from one experience that I've had in my life.

1878
01:32:41.361 --> 01:32:43.543
And I feel like I am grateful and I've been very privileged.

1879
01:32:44.103 --> 01:32:47.126
So I would like to understand why other people do not feel lucky in their lives.

1880
01:32:47.506 --> 01:32:47.746
And...

1881
01:32:48.717 --> 01:32:55.326
You know, I guess it would also be surprising to hear that some people have been through objectively horrific things, but some of them might still feel lucky.

1882
01:32:55.526 --> 01:32:56.528
So that would be interesting as well.

1883
01:32:56.548 --> 01:32:57.509
So I'll be reading the comments.

1884
01:32:57.830 --> 01:32:59.272
And that is also fact versus frame.

1885
01:32:59.772 --> 01:32:59.953
Okay.

1886
01:33:00.890 --> 01:33:07.493
So the way that we begin to rewrite our story, and I believe so much in self-authorship, right?

1887
01:33:08.493 --> 01:33:12.175
Yes, there's a story you tell yourself about yourself, but you also are the author of your own life, right?

1888
01:33:12.195 --> 01:33:13.555
You're the author of your own narrative.

1889
01:33:14.296 --> 01:33:21.799
The way that we begin to take up the pen, like become the author of our own life, is we ask ourselves questions about, why do I have that idea?

1890
01:33:22.339 --> 01:33:23.580
What is the evidence for that idea?

1891
01:33:24.460 --> 01:33:26.841
The facts might be there, but our frame of them is different.

1892
01:33:26.861 --> 01:33:28.002
So, for example, let's take a breakup.

1893
01:33:28.122 --> 01:33:33.225
And I can almost always find out someone's contamination or redemption narrative if I ask them about a breakup.

1894
01:33:34.105 --> 01:33:37.787
People with contamination narratives will almost always say, the breakup nearly destroyed me.

1895
01:33:39.525 --> 01:33:40.466
I don't trust men anymore.

1896
01:33:40.486 --> 01:33:41.546
I don't trust women anymore.

1897
01:33:41.806 --> 01:33:43.847
You know, it just took from me.

1898
01:33:43.947 --> 01:33:45.368
I feel like a shell of myself.

1899
01:33:46.248 --> 01:33:47.148
And it stays that way.

1900
01:33:47.448 --> 01:33:54.952
Everyone has a period of a bad breakup time, but they never get through that, that they feel like that breakup fundamentally changed them for the worse.

1901
01:33:55.572 --> 01:34:02.975
Whereas someone with a positive redemption narrative, even if it was a horrific breakup, they'll say, I will never do that again.

1902
01:34:04.269 --> 01:34:05.130
That made me stronger.

1903
01:34:05.210 --> 01:34:05.950
It was horrible.

1904
01:34:05.970 --> 01:34:07.492
It was one of the worst times of my life.

1905
01:34:07.932 --> 01:34:10.614
But I know now who not to choose and I know who to choose.

1906
01:34:11.015 --> 01:34:11.795
It made me feel stronger.

1907
01:34:11.815 --> 01:34:13.296
It's that anti-fragile piece.

1908
01:34:14.357 --> 01:34:20.782
Would you give someone a second date if on the first date they turned to you and when you asked them the question, are you a lucky person?

1909
01:34:20.802 --> 01:34:22.023
They went, absolutely not.

1910
01:34:22.204 --> 01:34:22.764
I probably wouldn't.

1911
01:34:24.806 --> 01:34:26.167
You're going to be so mad.

1912
01:34:26.187 --> 01:34:26.988
You are so cooked.

1913
01:34:27.708 --> 01:34:28.829
They are going to get you.

1914
01:34:28.949 --> 01:34:29.590
Get out, guys.

1915
01:34:30.230 --> 01:34:31.011
You are so cooked.

1916
01:34:31.131 --> 01:34:31.852
I'm not single.

1917
01:34:32.372 --> 01:34:32.892
You are so cooked.

1918
01:34:32.912 --> 01:34:33.253
It's hard.

1919
01:34:35.089 --> 01:34:36.070
It was a trap.

1920
01:34:36.110 --> 01:34:36.690
That's what it was.

1921
01:34:36.710 --> 01:34:39.512
You're so mean.

1922
01:34:39.652 --> 01:34:41.993
You're like, let's throw us into the fire.

1923
01:34:42.313 --> 01:34:42.814
Oh, don't worry.

1924
01:34:42.834 --> 01:34:46.115
I got a wine bottle coming.

1925
01:34:47.316 --> 01:34:47.937
I was thinking.

1926
01:34:47.957 --> 01:34:48.557
I was thinking.

1927
01:34:48.597 --> 01:34:49.297
No, would you?

1928
01:34:49.317 --> 01:34:51.078
Gosh, I'm asking you now.

1929
01:34:51.358 --> 01:34:55.121
If someone, if I was on the first date and I said, are you a lucky person?

1930
01:34:55.201 --> 01:34:58.843
And they said to me, absolutely not.

1931
01:35:00.007 --> 01:35:01.009
Okay, I'd be curious.

1932
01:35:01.469 --> 01:35:02.171
Sure, of course.

1933
01:35:02.191 --> 01:35:03.072
And I want to hear what they meant.

1934
01:35:03.092 --> 01:35:03.533
I wouldn't leave.

1935
01:35:03.613 --> 01:35:04.534
I wouldn't leave the date.

1936
01:35:04.574 --> 01:35:12.487
But if they were then just like extremely pessimistic, I would probably arrive at this assumption that this is probably not going to be a match because that's not my inclination.

1937
01:35:12.647 --> 01:35:14.611
And it doesn't, it takes too much energy out of me.

1938
01:35:15.359 --> 01:35:20.582
And that is also because I think this is a beautiful bridge to the next concept.

1939
01:35:21.182 --> 01:35:30.688
Once you begin to uncover these narrative hints, okay, you're talking about luck, you're talking about redemption or contamination narrative, I believe, and this is more art than science, that there are five archetypes of these stories.

1940
01:35:31.028 --> 01:35:36.071
So I have harvested hundreds, I wouldn't say thousands, hundreds of narratives.

1941
01:35:36.091 --> 01:35:39.353
It's actually quite hard to ask someone, what is your self-narrative?

1942
01:35:39.893 --> 01:35:44.456
It's a very hard question, but there are questions that we can begin to talk about that do harvest it.

1943
01:35:45.036 --> 01:35:45.817
I notice patterns.

1944
01:35:46.617 --> 01:35:49.119
They're the same narratives over and over again, and there are about five of them.

1945
01:35:49.860 --> 01:35:51.561
I think that we share an archetype.

1946
01:35:52.082 --> 01:35:52.742
I think we do.

1947
01:35:52.802 --> 01:35:53.923
Now maybe I'm flattering myself.

1948
01:35:54.083 --> 01:36:00.028
So the first archetype is the ambitious hero, and I think this is us, but you'll tell me.

1949
01:36:00.048 --> 01:36:06.053
So the ambitious hero has had challenges and obstacles, but they feel that their grit and resilience they've been able to overcome.

1950
01:36:06.714 --> 01:36:10.377
They struggle because they are never satisfied.

1951
01:36:10.837 --> 01:36:12.699
And what is an archetype?

1952
01:36:13.000 --> 01:36:14.081
Sorry, I got excited.

1953
01:36:14.461 --> 01:36:14.641
Yes.

1954
01:36:14.822 --> 01:36:17.405
So this is not like a personality type.

1955
01:36:17.485 --> 01:36:18.946
It's not like Meyer Briggs or Enneagram.

1956
01:36:19.026 --> 01:36:20.288
Those are quite like stable.

1957
01:36:20.688 --> 01:36:24.352
This is a fluid archetype of how you're seeing your story in this moment.

1958
01:36:24.973 --> 01:36:30.880
For example, I might ask you, if you had to write a memoir, what would the title of your memoir be?

1959
01:36:31.335 --> 01:36:33.760
And this is going to impact how I have conversations with people.

1960
01:36:33.820 --> 01:36:39.611
This is going to impact how you have conversations with people, how you behave interpersonally, so how you act at work.

1961
01:36:39.651 --> 01:36:43.278
Like an ambitious hero is going to act very, very differently at work than a contented pragmatist.

1962
01:36:43.650 --> 01:36:46.951
And is it going to impact who I'm attracted to platonically and romantically?

1963
01:36:47.051 --> 01:36:47.531
Absolutely.

1964
01:36:47.551 --> 01:36:49.111
It dictates your relationship patterns.

1965
01:36:49.351 --> 01:36:49.551
Okay.

1966
01:36:49.771 --> 01:36:49.891
Right.

1967
01:36:49.911 --> 01:36:53.052
Your conversational patterns, how you converse, how you bond, how you connect.

1968
01:36:53.512 --> 01:36:59.353
And more importantly, since I'm so interested in work conversations, how you work, how you view effectiveness, how you view efficiency.

1969
01:36:59.793 --> 01:37:03.834
My founders, right, ambitious hero founders are going to have the same struggles over and over again.

1970
01:37:03.854 --> 01:37:06.034
They're going to be very different than the contended pragmatist founder.

1971
01:37:06.215 --> 01:37:08.395
So the ambitious hero, what's their sort of internal monologue?

1972
01:37:08.615 --> 01:37:10.497
Their internal monologue is, I got this.

1973
01:37:10.577 --> 01:37:11.137
I can do this.

1974
01:37:11.177 --> 01:37:12.058
Hustle, hustle more.

1975
01:37:12.858 --> 01:37:15.040
More, bigger, more, bigger, bigger, more.

1976
01:37:15.200 --> 01:37:15.941
I can do that better.

1977
01:37:16.001 --> 01:37:17.562
I can do that bigger, right?

1978
01:37:18.142 --> 01:37:23.767
It's like we, I get, you know, shiny object syndrome is like one of the nicer ways to talk about ambitious heroes.

1979
01:37:23.787 --> 01:37:24.808
You know, shiny object syndrome?

1980
01:37:25.068 --> 01:37:25.248
No.

1981
01:37:25.848 --> 01:37:31.193
It's like a founder who won't stop trying new initiatives and keeps throwing new ideas on the table when they haven't finished their first one.

1982
01:37:31.253 --> 01:37:31.533
Yeah.

1983
01:37:31.813 --> 01:37:31.993
Yeah.

1984
01:37:32.554 --> 01:37:33.154
Okay.

1985
01:37:33.314 --> 01:37:33.995
Do you have that?

1986
01:37:34.015 --> 01:37:34.255
Yeah.

1987
01:37:34.375 --> 01:37:41.080
Well, yes, but I have put systems in place to make sure that it doesn't sink the company.

1988
01:37:41.140 --> 01:37:44.042
As Jeff Bezos said, Jeff Bezos said, I've got enough ideas to sink the company.

1989
01:37:44.783 --> 01:37:48.105
And he has to learn to release them at a cadence that the company can tolerate.

1990
01:37:48.265 --> 01:37:49.746
So that's what I've learned.

1991
01:37:50.087 --> 01:37:51.888
And that's beautiful because that's self-knowledge.

1992
01:37:52.088 --> 01:37:53.789
And everything that we're talking about is self-knowledge, right?

1993
01:37:53.809 --> 01:37:56.931
If you're able to talk this through, you have self-knowledge to go to your team.

1994
01:37:57.411 --> 01:37:59.933
When I come to you with a new idea next week, say no.

1995
01:38:00.453 --> 01:38:01.013
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1996
01:38:01.153 --> 01:38:02.134
Don't let me do that.

1997
01:38:02.394 --> 01:38:03.515
It's too much, right?

1998
01:38:03.975 --> 01:38:10.159
So behaviorally, if you are the ambitious hero, you know you dream big, you can burn out because you dream so big.

1999
01:38:10.879 --> 01:38:13.422
I tend to – like work almost regulates me.

2000
01:38:13.502 --> 01:38:16.686
Like when I'm working, I'm like, I'm being so productive.

2001
01:38:16.786 --> 01:38:17.647
We are helping people.

2002
01:38:17.687 --> 01:38:18.328
Help more people.

2003
01:38:18.548 --> 01:38:19.329
Help all the people.

2004
01:38:19.409 --> 01:38:19.850
Right?

2005
01:38:20.931 --> 01:38:21.892
Like it's too much.

2006
01:38:22.293 --> 01:38:24.976
And so we can burn out from a productivity perspective.

2007
01:38:25.396 --> 01:38:26.117
We have shiny objects.

2008
01:38:26.137 --> 01:38:30.402
And in conversation and relationships, people sometimes don't always understand our drive.

2009
01:38:31.103 --> 01:38:32.425
Like we're so driven.

2010
01:38:32.645 --> 01:38:34.547
We get accused of hustle culture a lot.

2011
01:38:34.967 --> 01:38:39.252
We can burn other people out by trying to bring them with us on how fast we want to work, how long we want to work.

2012
01:38:39.512 --> 01:38:42.976
You know, those are not necessarily bad things, but they're traits.

2013
01:38:42.996 --> 01:38:43.877
They're behavioral traits.

2014
01:38:44.748 --> 01:38:44.928
Okay.

2015
01:38:44.968 --> 01:38:47.729
And by the way, so this is number one, the ambitious hero.

2016
01:38:48.810 --> 01:38:54.472
One way that you can kind of suss these out is asking the question, what character are you most like?

2017
01:38:54.792 --> 01:38:56.973
What book, movie, or TV character are you most like?

2018
01:38:57.193 --> 01:39:01.035
Not look like, life choices, personality, core values.

2019
01:39:01.055 --> 01:39:02.996
And I said pursuit of happiness, which is, yeah.

2020
01:39:03.116 --> 01:39:03.276
Yeah.

2021
01:39:03.816 --> 01:39:04.136
Which is?

2022
01:39:05.017 --> 01:39:05.617
Ambitious hero.

2023
01:39:06.260 --> 01:39:08.021
Yeah, but why did you choose that character?

2024
01:39:08.161 --> 01:39:09.002
Because he...

2025
01:39:10.703 --> 01:39:18.708
The reason why I chose the character was because when I was 18, 19 years old, and I was literally shoplifting food to feed myself, I watched that movie randomly.

2026
01:39:18.908 --> 01:39:21.990
And I was in bed that day, and it really made me feel like...

2027
01:39:22.710 --> 01:39:26.473
Like the journey I was on, you know, when he was in the, he was in the like disabled toilet with his kid.

2028
01:39:26.493 --> 01:39:27.673
The toilet scene.

2029
01:39:27.833 --> 01:39:28.074
Yeah.

2030
01:39:28.514 --> 01:39:32.296
And I remember like my life in shades felt a little bit like that at the moment.

2031
01:39:32.376 --> 01:39:43.003
Just, you know, kind of doing things to feed myself that would, you know, and keep the lights on and swerving these landlords because my rent was five months late and all the kind of games I played to try and just survive.

2032
01:39:43.484 --> 01:39:44.945
And then he went on to be successful.

2033
01:39:44.985 --> 01:39:46.346
So it was, it gave me a lot of hope.

2034
01:39:47.126 --> 01:39:48.227
So, and he's also black.

2035
01:39:48.247 --> 01:39:48.507
Yeah.

2036
01:39:49.327 --> 01:39:54.749
So it was really important in that interaction that I didn't assume about that character.

2037
01:39:55.630 --> 01:40:00.171
I asked you why, and then you told me a story about what you saw and when you saw it.

2038
01:40:00.771 --> 01:40:10.035
A really critical part of this exercise is that you ask someone about the character and then you say why, what traits, because the traits that they say next are going to tell you every single thing about that person.

2039
01:40:11.095 --> 01:40:14.636
For example, if I ask someone, you know, what person are you most like?

2040
01:40:14.656 --> 01:40:16.437
And they say, Mother Teresa.

2041
01:40:16.877 --> 01:40:19.078
I say, oh, you know, why?

2042
01:40:19.558 --> 01:40:21.639
You know, I might not agree with them.

2043
01:40:21.719 --> 01:40:22.479
Maybe I don't see that.

2044
01:40:22.519 --> 01:40:26.720
But whatever they say next is going to tell me a lot about how they view themselves, whether it's true or not.

2045
01:40:27.221 --> 01:40:30.962
And this is the hardest part about Level 3, and it's the most inconvenient part of Level 3.

2046
01:40:31.362 --> 01:40:32.362
You probably won't agree.

2047
01:40:32.382 --> 01:40:33.163
Okay.

2048
01:40:34.263 --> 01:40:37.304
There's a lot of times where people in my life have told me self-narratives, and I'm like,

2049
01:40:38.652 --> 01:40:39.154
What's yours?

2050
01:40:39.414 --> 01:40:40.999
What character are you most like and why?

2051
01:40:41.280 --> 01:40:45.773
Okay, so I relate most with Claire Dunphy from Modern Family.

2052
01:40:46.690 --> 01:40:52.571
Especially in her entrepreneurial years, most people would be surprised to actually identify first as a mother, not an entrepreneur.

2053
01:40:53.291 --> 01:40:54.732
Most of my day is with my kids.

2054
01:40:55.452 --> 01:40:56.212
I'm a little awkward.

2055
01:40:56.252 --> 01:40:57.152
I'm very neurotic.

2056
01:40:58.193 --> 01:41:00.253
And so I resonate most with her.

2057
01:41:01.073 --> 01:41:07.114
And that ambitious working mom is sort of what I'm constantly struggling with.

2058
01:41:07.975 --> 01:41:08.435
Constantly.

2059
01:41:08.915 --> 01:41:09.075
Yeah.

2060
01:41:09.595 --> 01:41:12.697
Especially as an ambitious hero because I want to do both perfectly and I cannot.

2061
01:41:14.418 --> 01:41:21.261
So by the way, if you're having trouble with this question, this is the one way that I think AI can help.

2062
01:41:21.341 --> 01:41:26.284
I have my own relationship with AI, but AI can be a great brainstorm partner.

2063
01:41:26.504 --> 01:41:28.365
It can be a great conversational practice partner.

2064
01:41:28.385 --> 01:41:29.805
It can be a great role-playing partner.

2065
01:41:30.206 --> 01:41:31.486
And this is actually one way that I like it.

2066
01:41:31.546 --> 01:41:34.028
So if you're not sure, if you're like, Vanessa, I don't know.

2067
01:41:34.088 --> 01:41:35.248
I don't know what character I am.

2068
01:41:35.588 --> 01:41:36.509
Go to AI and ask this.

2069
01:41:37.926 --> 01:41:45.368
What book, movie, or TV character is most like me in the way that I treat you, especially if you have a relationship with your AI?

2070
01:41:46.608 --> 01:41:48.548
I am fill in the blank.

2071
01:41:48.868 --> 01:41:52.289
So for me, it was mom, entrepreneur, neurotic.

2072
01:41:54.350 --> 01:41:57.650
My personality is, how do you describe a personality?

2073
01:41:58.291 --> 01:42:00.131
My core values are?

2074
01:42:02.300 --> 01:42:03.521
What character is most similar to me?

2075
01:42:03.621 --> 01:42:06.742
And it will pull a bunch of characters that are those traits.

2076
01:42:06.942 --> 01:42:09.284
So this is the one way that it can help you sometimes brainstorm.

2077
01:42:10.904 --> 01:42:11.144
Okay.

2078
01:42:11.445 --> 01:42:12.165
The ambitious hero.

2079
01:42:12.465 --> 01:42:12.585
Right?

2080
01:42:12.605 --> 01:42:13.125
We started with that.

2081
01:42:13.265 --> 01:42:13.426
Yeah.

2082
01:42:13.886 --> 01:42:14.506
Architect number one.

2083
01:42:15.106 --> 01:42:17.307
The second one is called the content.

2084
01:42:17.448 --> 01:42:19.128
I called it the contented pragmatist.

2085
01:42:19.148 --> 01:42:20.489
Again, these are a little more art than science.

2086
01:42:21.249 --> 01:42:25.712
The contented pragmatist is somebody who likes it as it is.

2087
01:42:27.043 --> 01:42:30.684
They're quite content, very happy with where things are.

2088
01:42:31.284 --> 01:42:33.405
They don't really need to change it if it's not broken.

2089
01:42:34.225 --> 01:42:38.406
They are not very ambitious because they're very grounded in where they are.

2090
01:42:38.526 --> 01:42:40.906
They love habit and ritual and tradition.

2091
01:42:41.807 --> 01:42:47.448
In conversation, relationally, they struggle when people push them to try harder or do more.

2092
01:42:48.640 --> 01:42:50.241
Because they're like, I'm good.

2093
01:42:51.042 --> 01:42:51.803
Life is good.

2094
01:42:52.263 --> 01:42:53.444
Why would we change things?

2095
01:42:53.864 --> 01:43:00.510
I have two very specific people in my life who are very annoyed by me as the ambitious hero because I have a new goal every month.

2096
01:43:00.590 --> 01:43:05.134
And I'm constantly like, they're like, I love smoothies or they make great granola.

2097
01:43:05.154 --> 01:43:07.956
And I'm like, you should bottle it up and sell it at farmer's markets.

2098
01:43:08.496 --> 01:43:09.837
And they're like, but why?

2099
01:43:10.038 --> 01:43:11.179
And I'm like, but why not?

2100
01:43:12.159 --> 01:43:12.339
Right.

2101
01:43:12.359 --> 01:43:17.083
So relationally, they're often seen as unambitious, but actually they're just quite content.

2102
01:43:17.684 --> 01:43:17.824
Mm-hmm.

2103
01:43:18.944 --> 01:43:19.344
Interesting.

2104
01:43:19.624 --> 01:43:20.725
Do you know someone like that?

2105
01:43:20.785 --> 01:43:20.925
I do.

2106
01:43:20.945 --> 01:43:28.869
I was just thinking also about just business generally and how when you're hiring teams or even in relationships, you can get a contented pragmatist holding back an ambitious hero.

2107
01:43:28.929 --> 01:43:34.232
And I've often had friends come to me and say, like, I've got this big startup idea that I want to launch, but my girlfriend and my husband is...

2108
01:43:35.072 --> 01:43:35.312
Yeah.

2109
01:43:35.573 --> 01:43:37.035
Telling me to be realistic.

2110
01:43:37.175 --> 01:43:39.378
And they tend to be a little bit more fear-based.

2111
01:43:39.678 --> 01:43:44.886
It's not that they're negative, but they are so contented that they're very, very hyper-practical.

2112
01:43:45.426 --> 01:43:50.433
I also think on a team, it is important to know what role will be best served by this.

2113
01:43:51.314 --> 01:43:58.260
ambitious roles, growth roles, rainmaker roles, leaders who are in an industry of change.

2114
01:43:58.560 --> 01:44:04.525
Some like fiduciary, you know, I do a lot of finance conferences and I work with a lot of folks in banking.

2115
01:44:05.106 --> 01:44:09.490
Sometimes the ambitious heroes can really be crushed in those roles because there isn't a lot of

2116
01:44:10.010 --> 01:44:11.851
fast-moving growth in those companies.

2117
01:44:12.551 --> 01:44:20.076
A contended pragmatist can do really well in a very stable traditional industry with a lot of regulation because they are very happy to live in that regulation.

2118
01:44:20.556 --> 01:44:21.677
You might want someone might.

2119
01:44:21.717 --> 01:44:28.180
I say might because it really depends on your company, but in a corporate culture, you know, you might want a contended pragmatist running your books.

2120
01:44:29.801 --> 01:44:31.061
They're quite conservative.

2121
01:44:31.382 --> 01:44:33.342
They're not going to make a big leap here, right?

2122
01:44:33.442 --> 01:44:36.003
And they're also, they're like, let's keep it as it is.

2123
01:44:36.043 --> 01:44:37.084
Let's know what we're doing.

2124
01:44:37.244 --> 01:44:38.964
Don't break, don't change if it's not broken, right?

2125
01:44:38.984 --> 01:44:40.405
So you have to think about your roles.

2126
01:44:40.805 --> 01:44:44.686
In a hiring manager, it depends on what your company is like.

2127
01:44:45.166 --> 01:44:50.088
And in terms of conversation tips, are there different tips for different archetypes?

2128
01:44:50.348 --> 01:44:58.471
An ambitious hero, they are going to get so much dopamine talking about goals, talking about new, talking about progress.

2129
01:44:59.311 --> 01:45:02.933
They are juiced by progress and they want to hear about progress too.

2130
01:45:03.353 --> 01:45:07.575
So not only are they wanting to like, you know, I, when someone asks me, how are you?

2131
01:45:08.195 --> 01:45:10.676
It takes everything in me to not share my metrics.

2132
01:45:11.257 --> 01:45:12.877
Like, I know that's not socially acceptable.

2133
01:45:12.897 --> 01:45:14.718
So I have to be like, I'm doing great.

2134
01:45:14.758 --> 01:45:15.999
The business is exploding.

2135
01:45:16.479 --> 01:45:17.399
And then I just stop, right?

2136
01:45:17.419 --> 01:45:22.002
Because it would be weird if I was like, we have 305% growth on Instagram, you know, like, right?

2137
01:45:22.022 --> 01:45:23.102
Because we love ambition.

2138
01:45:23.162 --> 01:45:24.383
I also love ambition in others.

2139
01:45:24.403 --> 01:45:24.983
Oh my God.

2140
01:45:25.943 --> 01:45:29.204
When I hear about my friend's side hustle that's growing, that's all my text.

2141
01:45:29.284 --> 01:45:32.245
All my check-in text, I'm just thinking about you, is how's the biz?

2142
01:45:33.005 --> 01:45:33.906
How's the traffic?

2143
01:45:33.926 --> 01:45:34.486
How are the book sales?

2144
01:45:34.526 --> 01:45:35.766
How are the movie sales?

2145
01:45:35.926 --> 01:45:36.747
I want to hear about growth.

2146
01:45:37.407 --> 01:45:39.647
A contended pragmatist, they want to talk about ritual.

2147
01:45:40.328 --> 01:45:41.408
They want to talk about what works.

2148
01:45:41.828 --> 01:45:43.749
They want to savor life's pleasures.

2149
01:45:43.809 --> 01:45:44.849
They're very good at savoring.

2150
01:45:45.209 --> 01:45:48.090
And by the way, this can be a wonderful relationship sometimes.

2151
01:45:48.690 --> 01:45:51.291
Because sometimes the contended pragmatist reminds the ambitious hero—

2152
01:45:52.668 --> 01:45:52.788
it.

2153
01:45:53.529 --> 01:45:54.109
Enjoy it.

2154
01:45:54.709 --> 01:45:58.011
You've worked so hard, like just taking the view for a moment.

2155
01:45:58.631 --> 01:46:00.633
And so they love gratitude.

2156
01:46:00.653 --> 01:46:02.153
They love habit, ritual routine.

2157
01:46:02.734 --> 01:46:05.015
They love to be honored for what works.

2158
01:46:05.455 --> 01:46:16.742
They're the ones who will make a beautiful Thanksgiving dinner and they want to have that three hour dinner and savor it and not talk about next year and not talk about goals and just savor this moment and talk about what they did last year and the year before that.

2159
01:46:17.522 --> 01:46:18.122
A little bit different.

2160
01:46:18.343 --> 01:46:18.543
Okay.

2161
01:46:19.383 --> 01:46:22.906
Okay, this is, I think, the most important one to talk about, actually.

2162
01:46:23.006 --> 01:46:27.569
I think it's the least understood of all the archetypes, which is the selfless helper.

2163
01:46:27.589 --> 01:46:32.292
Okay, this is such a clear narrative.

2164
01:46:32.392 --> 01:46:35.394
I almost always can predict it within the first few minutes of conversation.

2165
01:46:36.275 --> 01:46:40.038
And that is because selfless helpers, their entire story is about giving.

2166
01:46:40.938 --> 01:46:44.039
Their entire reason for being is being of service.

2167
01:46:44.559 --> 01:46:47.700
They almost always pick careers that are of service.

2168
01:46:47.800 --> 01:46:53.261
They almost always pick careers, teachers, coaches, trainers, nurses, doctors.

2169
01:46:53.541 --> 01:46:57.762
And that is because they are so ingrained that to have worth is to help.

2170
01:46:59.003 --> 01:47:07.305
And oftentimes where they can sometimes get into trouble is they don't feel worthy if they are not helping.

2171
01:47:08.251 --> 01:47:10.894
And so they help so much that there's nothing left.

2172
01:47:11.835 --> 01:47:17.442
They have compassion burnout or compassion fatigue because they are giving and giving and giving and giving.

2173
01:47:17.502 --> 01:47:18.283
They cannot say no.

2174
01:47:19.523 --> 01:47:23.845
In a relationship, they are beautiful to be in a relationship with because they are givers, right?

2175
01:47:23.965 --> 01:47:24.866
They are nurturers.

2176
01:47:24.886 --> 01:47:25.466
They are giving.

2177
01:47:26.506 --> 01:47:31.529
A lot of parents can flip into self-helpers once they become a parent.

2178
01:47:31.549 --> 01:47:33.830
I've seen this happen with both moms and dads.

2179
01:47:34.130 --> 01:47:39.793
The moment they have a baby, they flip into self-help because all of a sudden their purpose is theirs to take care of this little person.

2180
01:47:40.800 --> 01:47:43.962
The problem is that they have a really hard time saying no.

2181
01:47:44.302 --> 01:47:44.962
That people pleases.

2182
01:47:45.422 --> 01:47:46.303
Yeah.

2183
01:47:46.823 --> 01:47:47.703
They struggle with boundaries.

2184
01:47:48.184 --> 01:47:49.184
They say yes to too much.

2185
01:47:49.744 --> 01:47:50.785
And they put themselves last.

2186
01:47:52.005 --> 01:47:53.746
Can be both good and bad in a relationship.

2187
01:47:53.866 --> 01:47:58.689
And so if you're in a relationship with them, sometimes half of it is just letting them stand up to protect themselves.

2188
01:47:59.449 --> 01:48:00.249
To not give too much.

2189
01:48:00.630 --> 01:48:07.453
And I mentioned this very briefly earlier, but I've had many friends who are selfless helpers and they attract takers.

2190
01:48:08.912 --> 01:48:11.573
They attract high-conflict people.

2191
01:48:12.313 --> 01:48:13.834
You know what I mean by high-conflict?

2192
01:48:13.854 --> 01:48:14.394
Oh, okay.

2193
01:48:14.434 --> 01:48:14.754
Yeah.

2194
01:48:15.575 --> 01:48:17.976
A high-conflict person is Bill Eddy's work.

2195
01:48:18.836 --> 01:48:22.238
He estimates that 10% of the population is a high-conflict person.

2196
01:48:23.618 --> 01:48:25.479
A high-conflict person is someone who...

2197
01:48:27.198 --> 01:48:28.259
Thrives with drama.

2198
01:48:29.040 --> 01:48:31.844
They create difficulty in their relationships.

2199
01:48:32.365 --> 01:48:34.908
They almost like to have difficult conversations.

2200
01:48:34.928 --> 01:48:36.710
They thrive with that kind of drama.

2201
01:48:37.471 --> 01:48:38.593
They see an absolute.

2202
01:48:38.873 --> 01:48:40.595
So they often speak in like black or white.

2203
01:48:41.116 --> 01:48:42.157
They see no nuance.

2204
01:48:42.898 --> 01:48:44.100
They weaponize emotions.

2205
01:48:45.655 --> 01:48:53.804
These days, they often sometimes use psychology to their advantage by taking advantage of people.

2206
01:48:54.405 --> 01:49:03.535
And the worst high conflict people, and this is where I've noticed it in my work when I was listening and reading Bill Eddy's work, I was like, they actually are enablers.

2207
01:49:03.575 --> 01:49:05.337
They can get other people to do their dirty work for them.

2208
01:49:06.673 --> 01:49:12.659
So they can sometimes put a seed in a selfless helper's ear and the selfless helper will go, oh, how dare they?

2209
01:49:12.739 --> 01:49:13.700
And they'll go fight for you.

2210
01:49:14.261 --> 01:49:21.669
And so sometimes selfless helpers, they're roped into things that are not necessarily what they should be doing because they are standing up for the person they care about.

2211
01:49:22.509 --> 01:49:25.492
And so if you're dealing with a selfless helper in terms of conversation.

2212
01:49:25.793 --> 01:49:26.053
Yes.

2213
01:49:26.694 --> 01:49:29.797
Sometimes they even think talking about themselves is taking advantage.

2214
01:49:30.177 --> 01:49:30.277
Okay.

2215
01:49:30.617 --> 01:49:33.500
So you might sometimes in conversation, like you're asking them a question.

2216
01:49:33.520 --> 01:49:34.121
They're like, oh, no, no.

2217
01:49:34.161 --> 01:49:34.701
Enough about me.

2218
01:49:34.721 --> 01:49:35.722
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2219
01:49:35.922 --> 01:49:36.683
Oh, let's talk about you.

2220
01:49:36.703 --> 01:49:37.003
Yeah.

2221
01:49:37.164 --> 01:49:37.904
Oh, I want to help you.

2222
01:49:37.944 --> 01:49:38.545
How can I help you?

2223
01:49:38.585 --> 01:49:39.005
It's so funny.

2224
01:49:39.025 --> 01:49:45.672
Like my friends who are selfless helpers, I cannot get them to tell me what I can help them with because all they want to do is check in on me.

2225
01:49:46.052 --> 01:49:47.973
I'm like, no, no, I really do want to hear about you.

2226
01:49:48.473 --> 01:49:51.074
So sometimes they won't take the ball because they're worried it's selfish.

2227
01:49:51.834 --> 01:49:56.976
And so sometimes getting them to open up can be hard because they feel like their needs are not important, but their needs are very important.

2228
01:49:57.096 --> 01:49:58.396
Like they're such beautiful people.

2229
01:49:58.956 --> 01:50:04.058
So I think in conversation, the greatest gift we can give a selfless helper is letting them know that you're understood.

2230
01:50:04.978 --> 01:50:05.659
I value you.

2231
01:50:05.939 --> 01:50:08.259
And getting to know you is not taking from me.

2232
01:50:08.340 --> 01:50:09.160
It's giving to me.

2233
01:50:10.087 --> 01:50:13.549
I have to tell my friends, it makes me feel good to help you.

2234
01:50:13.869 --> 01:50:16.090
It makes me feel good to hear about what's going on for you.

2235
01:50:16.310 --> 01:50:19.532
You're actually giving to me by telling me about yourself, not taking from me.

2236
01:50:20.372 --> 01:50:22.133
So we have to gift to them.

2237
01:50:22.453 --> 01:50:24.754
I think we have to be extremely conversationally generous with them.

2238
01:50:25.535 --> 01:50:26.455
Do you know anyone?

2239
01:50:26.495 --> 01:50:26.876
Yes, I do.

2240
01:50:27.236 --> 01:50:27.816
Oh, lovely.

2241
01:50:28.216 --> 01:50:28.616
Yeah.

2242
01:50:28.636 --> 01:50:30.497
And it all tracks with everything you said.

2243
01:50:30.737 --> 01:50:33.359
And corporate, all these apply to work.

2244
01:50:34.737 --> 01:50:46.499
These are great if you have, not always, but often managers can do great things as selfless helpers because they're so attuned to others that they are very good at bringing out performance.

2245
01:50:46.859 --> 01:50:57.522
Not always, but I've seen really, really amazing managers who they know the ROI, they know metrics, like they're following their KPIs, but they're so good at finding how does this person need to be helped?

2246
01:50:57.862 --> 01:50:59.062
How could this person be their best selves?

2247
01:50:59.442 --> 01:51:00.942
Oh, that person has a great expert power.

2248
01:51:01.322 --> 01:51:04.403
They're so good at that that they bring up performance in everyone.

2249
01:51:04.743 --> 01:51:06.805
But they might avoid that difficult conversation.

2250
01:51:08.547 --> 01:51:11.370
These people tend to be a little bit conflict avoidant.

2251
01:51:11.650 --> 01:51:17.576
They can be conflict avoidant, but they're very good at framing everything as we're in this together.

2252
01:51:18.909 --> 01:51:27.993
So yes, they can be conflict avoidant, but the really good managers who are excellent conversationalists, they are able to frame bad news and hard feedback as, I want to help you.

2253
01:51:28.834 --> 01:51:31.875
The reason I'm giving you this feedback is because I so want you to succeed.

2254
01:51:32.155 --> 01:51:34.376
And the person on the receiving end goes, I trust you.

2255
01:51:34.436 --> 01:51:34.917
I know that.

2256
01:51:34.997 --> 01:51:35.357
Okay.

2257
01:51:36.317 --> 01:51:38.919
So yes, if they're not excellent conversationalists, it's true.

2258
01:51:38.959 --> 01:51:40.039
They can be avoidant.

2259
01:51:40.399 --> 01:51:47.523
But if they learn how to be assertive, and by the way, learning, you know, you can be assertive, then they're tremendous in conversation because people trust them.

2260
01:51:48.083 --> 01:51:49.064
Because they come from a good place.

2261
01:51:50.265 --> 01:51:50.545
Okay.

2262
01:51:51.606 --> 01:51:52.467
The creative disruptor.

2263
01:51:53.889 --> 01:51:57.492
So the creative disruptor, this is my most challenging archetype.

2264
01:51:57.712 --> 01:52:00.795
So I'm really going to try to talk about this archetype in a positive way.

2265
01:52:02.016 --> 01:52:03.738
Creative disruptors do not like rules.

2266
01:52:04.859 --> 01:52:06.741
Their entire ethos is...

2267
01:52:08.372 --> 01:52:09.253
breaking things.

2268
01:52:09.593 --> 01:52:10.734
They want to disrupt.

2269
01:52:10.834 --> 01:52:12.835
They want to go anti-norm.

2270
01:52:12.855 --> 01:52:14.396
They want to be countercultural.

2271
01:52:14.896 --> 01:52:16.957
They're the ones who are like, I don't need a blueprint.

2272
01:52:18.578 --> 01:52:22.261
And they, them and me in conversation is not always the best.

2273
01:52:22.281 --> 01:52:27.204
They're probably the ones in the comments who are like, well, this doesn't apply to me because of all these reasons.

2274
01:52:27.384 --> 01:52:29.285
Because they want to push.

2275
01:52:29.385 --> 01:52:30.426
They want to challenge.

2276
01:52:30.946 --> 01:52:35.529
And this is wonderful because they often are the really creative thinkers, right?

2277
01:52:35.649 --> 01:52:35.829
Right.

2278
01:52:36.249 --> 01:52:38.951
They often are the ones who are thinking outside the box the most.

2279
01:52:39.331 --> 01:52:42.132
They're often the ones who are willing to challenge the way something has always been done.

2280
01:52:43.473 --> 01:52:45.854
The problem is, is sometimes that can rub people the wrong way.

2281
01:52:46.414 --> 01:52:50.957
And sometimes these folks can thrive over conflict in the way of it's just it's fun for them.

2282
01:52:51.297 --> 01:52:52.417
Like it's fun to negotiate.

2283
01:52:52.437 --> 01:52:53.578
It's fun to push.

2284
01:52:53.638 --> 01:52:59.401
Litigators, my litigators who are watching, I find that my litigators tend to fall into this into this category.

2285
01:53:00.481 --> 01:53:02.022
or very disruptive entrepreneurs.

2286
01:53:03.043 --> 01:53:04.524
I know there's ones on this show.

2287
01:53:04.564 --> 01:53:07.226
I've listened to the interviews with them, and I go, oh, that's a creative disruptor.

2288
01:53:07.646 --> 01:53:12.550
It's someone who they're not only building something, but they're not quite an ambitious hero because they want to break things.

2289
01:53:12.570 --> 01:53:13.831
They want to build it and break it.

2290
01:53:14.051 --> 01:53:17.513
They want to reinvent the entire system, and they're doing it.

2291
01:53:18.914 --> 01:53:26.300
Edward Snowden is one of the examples I give in the book of, he wanted to change something, and also he wanted to stick it to the man.

2292
01:53:26.320 --> 01:53:28.421
He wanted to break the system that he was in.

2293
01:53:28.441 --> 01:53:28.882
Yeah.

2294
01:53:29.660 --> 01:53:29.820
Hmm.

2295
01:53:30.401 --> 01:53:30.681
Okay.

2296
01:53:30.781 --> 01:53:31.902
Do you struggle with this?

2297
01:53:31.922 --> 01:53:32.543
Do you like this?

2298
01:53:32.883 --> 01:53:34.785
In interviews, they're very interesting.

2299
01:53:34.965 --> 01:53:35.886
They're really good in interviews.

2300
01:53:35.906 --> 01:53:37.628
I actually interviewed someone the other day that was like that.

2301
01:53:38.108 --> 01:53:38.769
So interesting.

2302
01:53:38.889 --> 01:53:41.031
Because they have a contrarian view by nature.

2303
01:53:41.051 --> 01:53:42.872
Everything they say is like deeply contrarian.

2304
01:53:43.733 --> 01:53:49.198
But I think having people like that that are challenging around, their like default is challenge is quite useful.

2305
01:53:49.439 --> 01:53:49.619
Yes.

2306
01:53:49.779 --> 01:53:52.822
It helps me be sort of refine my own points of view.

2307
01:53:53.082 --> 01:53:54.103
And they live as dream killers.

2308
01:53:54.583 --> 01:53:54.804
Yeah.

2309
01:53:55.004 --> 01:53:55.945
They live as dream killers.

2310
01:53:56.485 --> 01:53:58.006
It can be amazing, but it can be exhausting.

2311
01:53:58.467 --> 01:54:03.211
So in conversation, it's good to go in prepared to know, ah, I need this.

2312
01:54:03.251 --> 01:54:04.052
I want to get stronger.

2313
01:54:04.072 --> 01:54:05.152
I want to be anti-fragile.

2314
01:54:05.172 --> 01:54:06.634
They'll break for you to make you stronger.

2315
01:54:07.254 --> 01:54:09.076
Or like, I'm a delicate flower right now.

2316
01:54:09.096 --> 01:54:10.977
I cannot do the dream killing.

2317
01:54:10.998 --> 01:54:11.738
I'm exhausted by it.

2318
01:54:11.838 --> 01:54:13.580
It's a fine line between that and like pessimism.

2319
01:54:14.787 --> 01:54:17.308
Not always, but sometimes they are pessimistic.

2320
01:54:17.329 --> 01:54:17.709
Not always.

2321
01:54:17.969 --> 01:54:24.052
We have a creative disruptor friend who I did an Instagram post about this.

2322
01:54:24.112 --> 01:54:27.414
And I said, you know, I have a friend who always says, I hate everything.

2323
01:54:28.855 --> 01:54:29.375
I hate everything.

2324
01:54:29.395 --> 01:54:29.956
I hate everything.

2325
01:54:30.036 --> 01:54:32.997
And Instagram knew it was him and served him the video.

2326
01:54:33.037 --> 01:54:33.738
And he texted me.

2327
01:54:33.758 --> 01:54:34.538
He's like, is this me?

2328
01:54:34.578 --> 01:54:36.159
And I was like, yes.

2329
01:54:36.219 --> 01:54:37.400
Instagram knew it was him.

2330
01:54:39.188 --> 01:54:42.952
Okay, the last one is one we've actually already touched on, which is the unlucky struggler.

2331
01:54:43.373 --> 01:54:45.475
So this is someone with a contamination narrative.

2332
01:54:45.995 --> 01:54:50.560
And they feel that no matter what they've done, they are unlucky.

2333
01:54:51.101 --> 01:54:51.842
They are struggling.

2334
01:54:52.042 --> 01:54:53.143
They often feel stuck.

2335
01:54:53.644 --> 01:54:54.845
They often feel misunderstood.

2336
01:54:55.526 --> 01:54:57.248
They often feel overlooked.

2337
01:54:58.520 --> 01:55:04.462
And the problem with Unlucky Strugglers, the character you want to think of is like George Costanza from Seinfeld.

2338
01:55:04.742 --> 01:55:04.882
Right?

2339
01:55:04.902 --> 01:55:06.803
Like, oh, everything is bad for me.

2340
01:55:07.643 --> 01:55:09.984
They can be hilarious, but they are tortured.

2341
01:55:11.184 --> 01:55:11.904
They are tortured.

2342
01:55:12.525 --> 01:55:13.545
And in conversation –

2343
01:55:14.929 --> 01:55:19.032
It's really hard for ambitious heroes to not try to convince them they're not unlucky.

2344
01:55:19.052 --> 01:55:28.218
Like my biggest challenge with my unlucky strugglers in my life is to not try to flip them into something that they're not or try to convince them that they're actually lucky.

2345
01:55:29.972 --> 01:55:32.114
They also in conversation can be very funny.

2346
01:55:32.595 --> 01:55:34.476
They can make fun of themselves.

2347
01:55:34.516 --> 01:55:36.238
They're so humble.

2348
01:55:36.298 --> 01:55:37.860
They're low self-esteem.

2349
01:55:38.500 --> 01:55:40.582
Some of the best comedians are unlucky strugglers.

2350
01:55:40.702 --> 01:55:43.165
And so they're beautiful to be around.

2351
01:55:43.245 --> 01:55:48.470
But sometimes you wish that they had more confidence in the confidence you see in them.

2352
01:55:49.010 --> 01:55:49.571
They had it too.

2353
01:55:50.178 --> 01:55:54.462
If you're in a conversation with one of these people that you don't gel with, is there a...

2354
01:55:55.143 --> 01:56:00.108
I mean, you talk about it a little bit in the book, but what are the ways to get out of a bad conversation without offending people?

2355
01:56:00.168 --> 01:56:00.768
Oh, my goodness.

2356
01:56:01.089 --> 01:56:02.009
It's called a graceful exit.

2357
01:56:02.650 --> 01:56:09.777
So there's a behavior concept, the peak end effect, that we remember the first few minutes of a conversation and the last few minutes of conversation, which...

2358
01:56:09.857 --> 01:56:11.559
But we tend to focus a lot on the first impression.

2359
01:56:11.899 --> 01:56:12.940
Peak end.

2360
01:56:12.960 --> 01:56:16.784
Like, so when you're remembering something, you remember the peak of a conversation and the end of the conversation.

2361
01:56:16.804 --> 01:56:17.084
Okay.

2362
01:56:17.184 --> 01:56:17.325
Yeah.

2363
01:56:17.425 --> 01:56:19.827
But we also, of course, the first impressions are incredibly important as well.

2364
01:56:20.228 --> 01:56:22.350
We tend to over-index on the first impression.

2365
01:56:22.530 --> 01:56:27.575
So we think a lot about our first few minutes, our opening line, maybe the highlight, but we don't really think about the end.

2366
01:56:27.675 --> 01:56:29.257
But actually, that's what we leave people with.

2367
01:56:29.797 --> 01:56:30.938
So I have a formula.

2368
01:56:31.098 --> 01:56:31.939
You know I love a formula.

2369
01:56:31.959 --> 01:56:32.480
Yeah.

2370
01:56:32.920 --> 01:56:36.562
This calms my anxiety when I'm in a conversation, it's time to go.

2371
01:56:36.862 --> 01:56:41.524
Either we're not feeling it, like we're just not clicking, or we got to go.

2372
01:56:41.604 --> 01:56:42.625
First is a future cue.

2373
01:56:42.725 --> 01:56:45.366
So it's future cue plus compliment or action.

2374
01:56:45.627 --> 01:56:50.029
So a future cue is when you ask about or mention something coming in the future.

2375
01:56:50.629 --> 01:56:55.251
The reason for this is it's a subtle way to shift the brain into not here, later.

2376
01:56:55.271 --> 01:56:56.332
Okay, so let's role play.

2377
01:56:56.412 --> 01:56:56.872
Yeah, let's do it.

2378
01:56:56.892 --> 01:56:57.953
We're at a party.

2379
01:56:57.993 --> 01:57:01.014
We're having some wine and things get a little bit awkward.

2380
01:57:01.034 --> 01:57:02.195
We ran out of things to say to each other.

2381
01:57:02.575 --> 01:57:04.116
Do you have any fun plans coming up this weekend?

2382
01:57:04.176 --> 01:57:05.057
Do you have any fun?

2383
01:57:05.117 --> 01:57:07.199
It's good because there's this wine bar across town that I'm really into.

2384
01:57:07.239 --> 01:57:09.261
So I'm probably just going to go there, I think, with some friends.

2385
01:57:09.681 --> 01:57:10.101
Oh, my gosh.

2386
01:57:10.122 --> 01:57:11.182
Well, I hope it's lovely.

2387
01:57:11.202 --> 01:57:11.863
Make sure to try.

2388
01:57:11.883 --> 01:57:13.404
I love a Chardonnay.

2389
01:57:13.424 --> 01:57:15.026
I don't know if you like white wine.

2390
01:57:15.046 --> 01:57:15.806
Be sure to try it.

2391
01:57:16.627 --> 01:57:17.188
Future Q.

2392
01:57:17.208 --> 01:57:21.411
So I just asked you about a future and I'm going to wish you well on it, which already gets us into future mode.

2393
01:57:21.711 --> 01:57:24.013
And then I'm going to end on a compliment or an action.

2394
01:57:24.434 --> 01:57:26.315
It was so lovely talking to you.

2395
01:57:26.455 --> 01:57:27.997
I hope you have a great time with that wine bar.

2396
01:57:28.017 --> 01:57:29.258
I'm going to go get some more coffee.

2397
01:57:29.656 --> 01:57:31.116
Have you got any fun plans coming up?

2398
01:57:31.576 --> 01:57:32.877
I have so many fun plans coming up.

2399
01:57:33.317 --> 01:57:37.638
My daughter's just started school, and so we're having a celebratory Labor Day weekend this weekend.

2400
01:57:37.658 --> 01:57:38.778
What would you love to talk about?

2401
01:57:38.798 --> 01:57:39.979
I'm going to share that soon.

2402
01:57:40.199 --> 01:57:41.159
That's a signature question.

2403
01:57:41.319 --> 01:57:42.719
What have you always wanted to learn?

2404
01:57:42.799 --> 01:57:44.920
See, what if they just go straight back in, though?

2405
01:57:44.940 --> 01:57:46.660
Because that's happened to me before where I've tried to...

2406
01:57:46.720 --> 01:57:49.821
Okay, this is where the action and the compliment, that second piece.

2407
01:57:49.841 --> 01:57:51.982
So the future cue is we mentioned future, and you're right.

2408
01:57:52.122 --> 01:57:53.242
They might keep going with it.

2409
01:57:53.942 --> 01:57:55.682
The action and compliment is really important.

2410
01:57:55.743 --> 01:58:00.544
So wrapping up the conversation sounds like it's been so wonderful talking to you.

2411
01:58:00.664 --> 01:58:01.644
And I'm using an exit voice.

2412
01:58:01.784 --> 01:58:02.584
Do you hear the exit voice?

2413
01:58:02.984 --> 01:58:04.245
And our tone really matters here.

2414
01:58:04.285 --> 01:58:06.685
So it's been so wonderful talking to you.

2415
01:58:06.825 --> 01:58:08.666
I hope that that goes great this weekend.

2416
01:58:08.726 --> 01:58:10.326
Or be sure to connect with me on LinkedIn.

2417
01:58:10.747 --> 01:58:12.167
I was so happy we were able to trade numbers.

2418
01:58:12.647 --> 01:58:14.868
So you're mentioning the action that's going to come later.

2419
01:58:14.908 --> 01:58:16.448
And it's using that closing voice.

2420
01:58:16.988 --> 01:58:17.748
And then the action.

2421
01:58:18.289 --> 01:58:19.289
I'm going to go grab more coffee.

2422
01:58:19.549 --> 01:58:20.529
I'm going to go say hi to the host.

2423
01:58:20.689 --> 01:58:21.910
I'm going to run to the ladies' room.

2424
01:58:22.290 --> 01:58:23.110
I'm going to head home.

2425
01:58:24.577 --> 01:58:26.598
then they cannot.

2426
01:58:26.638 --> 01:58:27.498
You've ended it then.

2427
01:58:27.578 --> 01:58:29.078
And you also can use nonverbal cues here.

2428
01:58:29.559 --> 01:58:36.941
So the moment I take a step back, the moment I angle my body towards the door, our brain subtly sees, ah, they are literally trying to physically disengage.

2429
01:58:36.961 --> 01:58:41.462
So usually I pair those with those subtle nonverbal cues of a slow backup and an angle towards the door.

2430
01:58:42.402 --> 01:58:44.023
And remember, you can be assertive with this.

2431
01:58:44.803 --> 01:58:48.784
The worst kind of last impression is a lingering awkwardness.

2432
01:58:49.484 --> 01:58:50.905
There is nothing worse than a...

2433
01:58:51.965 --> 01:58:52.846
Well, this has been good.

2434
01:58:53.166 --> 01:58:54.307
It's been good for you.

2435
01:58:54.347 --> 01:58:55.328
It's been good for me.

2436
01:58:55.348 --> 01:59:00.353
Well, so, those are the worst.

2437
01:59:00.713 --> 01:59:01.594
So be assertive with this.

2438
01:59:01.794 --> 01:59:04.116
If you want to end it, if you're feeling it's the end, do it.

2439
01:59:04.797 --> 01:59:05.958
It's been so great talking to you.

2440
01:59:06.258 --> 01:59:07.179
I'm going to grab some more coffee.

2441
01:59:07.199 --> 01:59:08.560
Good luck at the wine bar this weekend.

2442
01:59:08.580 --> 01:59:09.081
Have so much fun.

2443
01:59:10.025 --> 01:59:10.185
Right?

2444
01:59:10.205 --> 01:59:14.129
Like, be assertive with it or else it will linger and that is just kryptonite for charisma.

2445
01:59:14.570 --> 01:59:15.831
On this point of being assertive.

2446
01:59:16.432 --> 01:59:16.672
Oh, yes.

2447
01:59:16.692 --> 01:59:21.337
I was talking to some friends the other day about people that have aura and riz.

2448
01:59:21.777 --> 01:59:22.258
Oh, yeah.

2449
01:59:22.850 --> 01:59:23.591
Who has aura and riz?

2450
01:59:23.671 --> 01:59:24.031
Who does?

2451
01:59:24.271 --> 01:59:24.611
I don't know.

2452
01:59:24.632 --> 01:59:25.752
I don't really know what the words mean.

2453
01:59:25.812 --> 01:59:28.815
I kind of know what aura means, but I don't really know what riz means.

2454
01:59:28.835 --> 01:59:31.317
So I'm curious, like, how you define those terms.

2455
01:59:31.357 --> 01:59:34.199
And, like, how does one cultivate aura and riz?

2456
01:59:34.300 --> 01:59:34.540
Okay.

2457
01:59:35.501 --> 01:59:40.725
I think aura and riz, and the only reason this is front of mind is my daughter asked me.

2458
01:59:40.765 --> 01:59:43.487
She heard one of my YouTube videos, and she said, what is charisma?

2459
01:59:43.827 --> 01:59:44.348
She asked me that.

2460
01:59:44.368 --> 01:59:46.390
And I was like, ooh, like she's eight.

2461
01:59:46.950 --> 01:59:51.374
I said, charisma or riz or aura is someone that you really want to be around.

2462
01:59:52.570 --> 01:59:55.433
It's when they walk into a room, you want to go over and talk to them.

2463
01:59:55.673 --> 01:59:56.714
You want to sit near them.

2464
01:59:57.554 --> 01:59:58.495
You want to listen to them.

2465
01:59:58.775 --> 01:59:59.816
You want to work with them.

2466
01:59:59.836 --> 02:00:01.178
You want to play with them.

2467
02:00:01.198 --> 02:00:03.239
And I said, do you know anyone like that?

2468
02:00:03.259 --> 02:00:04.100
And she goes, oh, yes.

2469
02:00:04.240 --> 02:00:10.286
And she named, so interesting, she named two kids in her class that I had already identified as very charismatic.

2470
02:00:10.886 --> 02:00:14.967
Like I knew, in my mind, I knew who the charismatic kids were in her class.

2471
02:00:15.747 --> 02:00:17.608
I had popped them, right?

2472
02:00:17.688 --> 02:00:18.068
I saw them.

2473
02:00:18.088 --> 02:00:20.308
They're the kids you really wanted to be around.

2474
02:00:20.348 --> 02:00:21.889
They have this aura about them.

2475
02:00:22.269 --> 02:00:24.589
And she named those exact two kids.

2476
02:00:25.009 --> 02:00:26.310
So I think that that definition works.

2477
02:00:26.470 --> 02:00:29.971
It's someone that we are drawn to verbally, physically.

2478
02:00:30.491 --> 02:00:33.971
I think also some of it can be physical and there's something hormonal there as well.

2479
02:00:33.991 --> 02:00:35.972
But it's someone we're drawn to.

2480
02:00:36.152 --> 02:00:44.096
Okay, so based on the 20 years of research you've done, if you were trying to teach me to have aura and riz, what are like the basics?

2481
02:00:45.296 --> 02:00:46.537
Be really easy to talk to.

2482
02:00:46.557 --> 02:00:47.037
Okay.

2483
02:00:47.537 --> 02:00:51.319
Right, so the point of level one is to put someone at ease.

2484
02:00:51.739 --> 02:00:55.721
We like to be around people who are, one, clearly signaling.

2485
02:00:56.662 --> 02:00:59.324
We don't like people who are mute with their body language.

2486
02:00:59.404 --> 02:01:01.226
We don't like people who under signal.

2487
02:01:01.686 --> 02:01:04.028
We like people who clearly like us, right?

2488
02:01:04.068 --> 02:01:06.230
So we have to be very allowed with our liking.

2489
02:01:06.270 --> 02:01:09.192
So saying things like, it's always so fun talking to you.

2490
02:01:09.853 --> 02:01:11.554
Or, oh, you always have the best stories.

2491
02:01:12.174 --> 02:01:13.335
Oh, you always make me laugh.

2492
02:01:13.535 --> 02:01:14.837
I love when you're put on my team.

2493
02:01:15.497 --> 02:01:18.018
So clearly signaling like and verbally.

2494
02:01:18.038 --> 02:01:27.159
I think there's something called signal amplification bias, which is this bias that we have that we think we're being really obvious with our cues, but we are not in fact being obvious.

2495
02:01:27.559 --> 02:01:29.300
We think that people know that we like them.

2496
02:01:29.320 --> 02:01:30.400
Of course they know that we like them.

2497
02:01:30.820 --> 02:01:32.761
But actually people underestimate liking, right?

2498
02:01:32.781 --> 02:01:33.441
The liking gap.

2499
02:01:34.061 --> 02:01:37.341
So we like people who are very clearly broadcasting likes.

2500
02:01:37.422 --> 02:01:38.902
And I have a funny story, if I may.

2501
02:01:39.982 --> 02:01:44.026
So this hit very close, embarrassingly, to home.

2502
02:01:45.328 --> 02:01:51.214
Because of my job, I don't know if this happens to you, my friends often ask me to suss out their partners, like potential partners.

2503
02:01:51.234 --> 02:01:53.256
So like a friend will be like, hey, I met a new guy.

2504
02:01:53.376 --> 02:01:55.138
Can you go out dinner with us and tell me what you think?

2505
02:01:56.460 --> 02:01:57.541
Does that hit you all?

2506
02:01:57.741 --> 02:01:58.402
Absolutely not.

2507
02:01:58.782 --> 02:01:59.823
Oh, my.

2508
02:01:59.863 --> 02:02:01.485
You're like, nobody asks me.

2509
02:02:03.480 --> 02:02:04.200
So I get this a lot.

2510
02:02:04.300 --> 02:02:07.501
And by the way, I'm just a regular person.

2511
02:02:07.521 --> 02:02:10.122
So I'm always like, are you sure you really want to know what I'm – yes.

2512
02:02:10.162 --> 02:02:16.324
So I go on a lot of like second or third little ghosty coffee dates to suss out the guy or gal.

2513
02:02:16.344 --> 02:02:17.804
I bet you love that.

2514
02:02:17.925 --> 02:02:18.805
It makes me feel needed.

2515
02:02:19.345 --> 02:02:20.465
It makes me feel needed.

2516
02:02:20.925 --> 02:02:21.186
Okay.

2517
02:02:21.346 --> 02:02:23.246
I also love eavesdropping on like the date conversation.

2518
02:02:23.266 --> 02:02:25.227
So she said, I really want you to meet this guy.

2519
02:02:26.197 --> 02:02:28.239
Let's call him Schmobbert.

2520
02:02:28.779 --> 02:02:29.059
Okay?

2521
02:02:29.800 --> 02:02:30.060
Okay.

2522
02:02:30.560 --> 02:02:32.262
Okay?

2523
02:02:32.282 --> 02:02:34.444
And so we go on this dinner.

2524
02:02:34.544 --> 02:02:36.085
We have like a Mediterranean platter.

2525
02:02:36.165 --> 02:02:38.947
And, you know, he was okay.

2526
02:02:39.387 --> 02:02:40.608
You know, I was like, okay.

2527
02:02:40.909 --> 02:02:41.609
He's nice.

2528
02:02:41.709 --> 02:02:43.531
But I wasn't like, green flag, green flag, you know.

2529
02:02:44.171 --> 02:02:44.772
It's kind of like, meh.

2530
02:02:45.332 --> 02:02:46.533
So the next day, I get the call.

2531
02:02:46.813 --> 02:02:48.535
She's like, hey, what did you think?

2532
02:02:49.595 --> 02:02:52.918
And I'm about to say, it's only okay when she goes, you know what?

2533
02:02:52.998 --> 02:02:53.859
He just loved you.

2534
02:02:55.268 --> 02:02:55.629
oh, what?

2535
02:02:55.649 --> 02:03:03.017
She said, oh, you know, he thought you were so funny and he already bought your Audible book and he just loved talking to you.

2536
02:03:04.796 --> 02:03:06.858
The most – I started to like him more.

2537
02:03:08.119 --> 02:03:17.167
Like it was so embarrassing because as she was telling me all these things about how he liked me, I was like, you know, that schmaubert, he is a great guy.

2538
02:03:17.247 --> 02:03:17.948
He's clever.

2539
02:03:18.148 --> 02:03:19.509
He's so smart.

2540
02:03:19.569 --> 02:03:21.471
He liked my – he liked my jokes, really?

2541
02:03:22.252 --> 02:03:24.614
She's like, yeah, he just – you know, he just really had a good time with you.

2542
02:03:25.394 --> 02:03:27.576
And I felt like I liked him more in that moment.

2543
02:03:27.596 --> 02:03:29.538
And I was horrified by my own response.

2544
02:03:29.698 --> 02:03:30.959
And I realized –

2545
02:03:31.940 --> 02:03:37.642
We so want to be liked that when someone clearly signals liking, it makes us like them more, right?

2546
02:03:37.702 --> 02:03:39.842
So we can be charismatic.

2547
02:03:40.382 --> 02:03:42.403
One is we send clear signals of liking.

2548
02:03:42.783 --> 02:03:49.825
But also two, and we talked about this a little bit last time, is fundamentally 82% of our impressions of people are based on warmth and competence.

2549
02:03:50.845 --> 02:04:03.614
So people who are first and is first signaling, I'm open, I'm friendly, and then competent, I'm capable, I'm efficient, I'm effective, make us feel like I'm in good hands.

2550
02:04:04.774 --> 02:04:07.856
In this way, every human being we first meet, we're trying to answer two questions.

2551
02:04:08.137 --> 02:04:09.557
Can I trust you and can I rely on you?

2552
02:04:10.298 --> 02:04:14.220
So the second thing that charismatic people are doing is they're signaling, you can trust me.

2553
02:04:15.142 --> 02:04:15.922
And you can rely on me.

2554
02:04:16.023 --> 02:04:16.723
I'm going to get it done.

2555
02:04:17.003 --> 02:04:18.604
I'm going to only speak when I know something.

2556
02:04:19.044 --> 02:04:19.905
I'm going to be assertive.

2557
02:04:20.345 --> 02:04:21.846
I'm going to carry us through this conversation.

2558
02:04:21.866 --> 02:04:27.769
I think that sort of this came after cues in a good way because cues is very much about picking your signals.

2559
02:04:28.369 --> 02:04:31.951
But conversation is about being a bit assertive about the plan.

2560
02:04:32.572 --> 02:04:32.732
Right?

2561
02:04:32.752 --> 02:04:36.094
Like, if you read this book, you are going to feel in control in conversation.

2562
02:04:36.334 --> 02:04:40.076
You're going to feel like you're approaching a conversation and you know what you want to do if you have intention.

2563
02:04:40.776 --> 02:04:41.337
We like that.

2564
02:04:42.557 --> 02:04:43.478
Charismatic people are like...

2565
02:04:44.995 --> 02:04:45.915
They carry us, right?

2566
02:04:45.935 --> 02:04:47.396
Like they're like, we got this.

2567
02:04:47.416 --> 02:04:48.016
We're going to do level.

2568
02:04:48.116 --> 02:04:48.756
I'm going to ask about this.

2569
02:04:48.816 --> 02:04:49.657
I'm going to do dream killing.

2570
02:04:49.677 --> 02:04:51.958
And if I like you, if I like you, we're going to talk about your character.

2571
02:04:53.058 --> 02:04:57.700
And so I think that that plan is a secret door into charisma.

2572
02:04:58.500 --> 02:05:04.682
Is there anything else that, you know, people accidentally do that holds them back from being someone of high aura?

2573
02:05:05.433 --> 02:05:07.714
Yes, they try to be impressive.

2574
02:05:08.335 --> 02:05:21.402
Now I know we talked about this before, but here's what happens when you go into the conversation, trying to sound smart, trying to impress people with your accolades and your background, is you actually end up creating distance.

2575
02:05:22.402 --> 02:05:24.765
I have a story where this felt very, very real.

2576
02:05:24.825 --> 02:05:26.547
So I was living in Austin, Texas.

2577
02:05:26.627 --> 02:05:28.389
I moved since then, but I was in Austin, Texas.

2578
02:05:28.669 --> 02:05:30.291
And I was invited to a VIP party.

2579
02:05:30.311 --> 02:05:31.392
She lives down at the beach in LA.

2580
02:05:31.572 --> 02:05:31.792
I do.

2581
02:05:31.832 --> 02:05:38.660
So if anyone wants to do lunch or dinner or breakfast with Vanessa, I'll share her number in the comments section.

2582
02:05:38.680 --> 02:05:39.200
It'll be pinned.

2583
02:05:39.441 --> 02:05:39.581
Yeah.

2584
02:05:42.423 --> 02:05:43.104
Exactly.

2585
02:05:44.726 --> 02:05:50.111
So I was in Austin and I was invited to this VIP party and I was like, oh man, why am I being invited?

2586
02:05:50.331 --> 02:05:51.192
So imposter syndrome.

2587
02:05:51.812 --> 02:05:55.115
So we get there and I'm like, oh, I know that person's YouTube channel.

2588
02:05:55.135 --> 02:05:55.776
I know that person.

2589
02:05:56.016 --> 02:05:57.758
The people I immediately recognized.

2590
02:05:57.838 --> 02:05:58.659
And I'm like, whoa.

2591
02:05:59.259 --> 02:06:05.465
And then of course, within the first five minutes, the leader of this group says, we're going to get in a circle and we're going to get in a circle and we're going to get in a

2592
02:06:05.745 --> 02:06:07.445
And we are going to introduce ourselves.

2593
02:06:08.006 --> 02:06:08.626
And this is like...

2594
02:06:09.666 --> 02:06:18.228
So we get in a circle, and the first person basically is like, I'm a billionaire, and I invented the internet, or something like that.

2595
02:06:18.968 --> 02:06:20.289
And the second person is like...

2596
02:06:20.769 --> 02:06:21.989
I would love to know what they actually said.

2597
02:06:22.169 --> 02:06:23.329
That's what you heard.

2598
02:06:23.369 --> 02:06:24.110
That's what I heard.

2599
02:06:24.250 --> 02:06:24.870
I was like, great.

2600
02:06:24.910 --> 02:06:27.150
I invented the internet.

2601
02:06:27.510 --> 02:06:29.511
Like, it was so impressive, it hurt, you know?

2602
02:06:29.911 --> 02:06:30.911
And I was like, okay, okay.

2603
02:06:31.091 --> 02:06:32.412
It was the first person, is that right?

2604
02:06:32.752 --> 02:06:33.612
The second person is like...

2605
02:06:34.292 --> 02:06:35.674
I cured cancer, right?

2606
02:06:35.734 --> 02:06:37.515
Like amazing.

2607
02:06:38.036 --> 02:06:39.978
And it was just like person after person.

2608
02:06:39.998 --> 02:06:41.499
It was like getting more and more impressive.

2609
02:06:41.579 --> 02:06:43.061
And like it's slowly coming to me.

2610
02:06:44.482 --> 02:06:47.665
And I was like, everyone was trying to be impressive, right?

2611
02:06:47.685 --> 02:06:52.470
Like they were saying things that were meant to shock and wow and awe you.

2612
02:06:52.670 --> 02:06:54.632
It gets to me and I was like,

2613
02:06:55.542 --> 02:07:02.725
My name is Vanessa, and I'm a recovering awkward person, and I help smart, awkward people with my books and my YouTube channel.

2614
02:07:03.525 --> 02:07:05.026
And everyone laughed and took a deep breath.

2615
02:07:05.326 --> 02:07:10.268
Now, I have other accolades that I could have shared, but I was like, it's nothing in comparison.

2616
02:07:10.308 --> 02:07:16.190
And also, I just wanted to be a little vulnerable, so I said, and I don't know why I was invited to this party.

2617
02:07:16.731 --> 02:07:17.751
And everyone laughed, right?

2618
02:07:18.171 --> 02:07:19.632
There's like a little bit of vulnerability.

2619
02:07:20.452 --> 02:07:23.833
every single person after me said, I'm a recovering awkward person.

2620
02:07:24.213 --> 02:07:25.994
So they also were able to feel awkward.

2621
02:07:26.014 --> 02:07:29.795
So it changed the nature of the rest of the invites, the rest of the introductions.

2622
02:07:30.275 --> 02:07:32.976
And then afterwards, the circle breaks up for networking.

2623
02:07:33.436 --> 02:07:47.260
And most people came over to me, not the billionaire, not the cure of cancer, not the saving the earth climate change guru, but wanted to talk to me about awkwardness and about my YouTube channel and about they're smart, but they feel uncomfortable.

2624
02:07:48.580 --> 02:07:52.843
And I realized, like, I was just the easiest person to talk to in that circle.

2625
02:07:53.264 --> 02:07:54.564
You have aura, Vanessa.

2626
02:07:55.605 --> 02:07:56.106
You have Riz.

2627
02:07:56.446 --> 02:07:58.828
I was the easiest person to talk to in that circle.

2628
02:07:59.408 --> 02:08:01.990
And so I think that if we can... Do you have aura, Vanessa?

2629
02:08:02.410 --> 02:08:03.171
You parlayed that one out there.

2630
02:08:03.191 --> 02:08:04.352
Maybe when my makeup is done.

2631
02:08:05.112 --> 02:08:05.813
Do you have aura?

2632
02:08:06.153 --> 02:08:07.474
When my makeup is done, maybe.

2633
02:08:07.514 --> 02:08:10.295
Maybe when my makeup is done.

2634
02:08:10.315 --> 02:08:10.955
You're deflecting.

2635
02:08:11.035 --> 02:08:14.916
Yeah, I mean, I don't – maybe – I don't know.

2636
02:08:14.937 --> 02:08:15.037
Do I?

2637
02:08:15.137 --> 02:08:17.778
You do have a work, yeah.

2638
02:08:17.798 --> 02:08:23.220
So I think that I just share that because we don't have to put so much pressure on ourselves to be impressive.

2639
02:08:23.440 --> 02:08:25.981
In fact, the really impressive people – I don't know.

2640
02:08:26.001 --> 02:08:27.041
I haven't met that many billionaires.

2641
02:08:27.061 --> 02:08:29.462
But the ones I've met, like most of them are quite humble.

2642
02:08:30.062 --> 02:08:30.703
And they're quite –

2643
02:08:32.190 --> 02:08:34.631
They downplay how successful they are because they've already made it.

2644
02:08:34.711 --> 02:08:38.771
And so I think if we all just put less pressure on ourselves to just connect, that would be easier.

2645
02:08:40.011 --> 02:08:40.712
It does really track.

2646
02:08:40.732 --> 02:08:42.432
I was thinking about the people in my life that have aura.

2647
02:08:42.472 --> 02:08:45.192
And they're not the people that are the most successful, the most accomplished.

2648
02:08:45.252 --> 02:08:49.333
They are the ones that you would most like to spend time with.

2649
02:08:49.393 --> 02:08:50.013
Yeah, they're easy.

2650
02:08:50.033 --> 02:08:50.733
For whatever reason, yeah.

2651
02:08:50.833 --> 02:08:51.394
Yeah, they're easy.

2652
02:08:51.754 --> 02:08:53.034
And by the way, it's back and forth.

2653
02:08:53.074 --> 02:08:55.774
Like you can be introverted or extroverted.

2654
02:08:56.154 --> 02:08:58.895
People, I think, think that master conversationals are extroverted.

2655
02:08:59.715 --> 02:09:00.916
Actually, that's not usually the case.

2656
02:09:00.936 --> 02:09:03.959
Sometimes extroverts fall into their own traps with conversational narcissism.

2657
02:09:04.480 --> 02:09:05.801
Ambiverts, introverts do really well.

2658
02:09:06.061 --> 02:09:12.007
But one of the other sort of definitions of aura is the person who, I don't know, they just seem to take up more space.

2659
02:09:12.527 --> 02:09:18.313
They seem to speak slower and be, you kind of like see them walk across a room.

2660
02:09:19.054 --> 02:09:19.614
What is that?

2661
02:09:19.734 --> 02:09:22.397
And like, how are they cultivating that, like that kind of aura?

2662
02:09:22.857 --> 02:09:24.599
I think there's, this is my guess.

2663
02:09:24.940 --> 02:09:26.061
I have also thought about this.

2664
02:09:26.081 --> 02:09:27.943
Because when someone walks into a room and you're just like.

2665
02:09:28.504 --> 02:09:29.605
Michelle Obama was like that.

2666
02:09:29.705 --> 02:09:31.207
Oh, I've never met her.

2667
02:09:31.287 --> 02:09:31.948
I've never met her.

2668
02:09:31.988 --> 02:09:33.209
But like I can only imagine.

2669
02:09:33.229 --> 02:09:33.810
Right.

2670
02:09:33.830 --> 02:09:34.351
Or becoming.

2671
02:09:34.551 --> 02:09:35.412
Tony Robbins as well.

2672
02:09:36.053 --> 02:09:36.734
He had Sirius.

2673
02:09:37.094 --> 02:09:37.715
For sure.

2674
02:09:38.496 --> 02:09:40.018
I think it's winner energy.

2675
02:09:40.038 --> 02:09:40.418
Yeah.

2676
02:09:41.325 --> 02:09:47.166
I think when certain people walk into a room and they have claimed their space, I think it's internal and external.

2677
02:09:47.186 --> 02:09:56.588
I think physically, and this has been studied, they are physically taking up more space, whether they're short or tall, in that winners, they have more space between their ears and their shoulders.

2678
02:09:57.108 --> 02:09:59.408
They take up more space between their torso and their arms.

2679
02:09:59.688 --> 02:10:01.928
They literally claim more space physically, right?

2680
02:10:01.949 --> 02:10:10.110
So if I were to, like, do the entire interview, and I've seen people do interviews in your chair where they're taking up as little space as possible, you aren't as drawn to this.

2681
02:10:10.930 --> 02:10:11.170
Right.

2682
02:10:11.610 --> 02:10:15.091
And so I think that physical, there's a physical taking up and they're micro movements.

2683
02:10:15.631 --> 02:10:17.912
Like it's not walking in like with my arms up.

2684
02:10:17.992 --> 02:10:18.692
It's micro.

2685
02:10:18.732 --> 02:10:18.872
Right.

2686
02:10:18.892 --> 02:10:21.093
It's like a slight down the shoulder.

2687
02:10:21.133 --> 02:10:22.274
It's a slight up of the head.

2688
02:10:22.674 --> 02:10:24.374
And when I do that, it affects everything about me.

2689
02:10:24.754 --> 02:10:25.955
Like it affects my vocal tone.

2690
02:10:26.815 --> 02:10:29.576
One thing that I think about a lot is maximum resonance point.

2691
02:10:30.616 --> 02:10:41.122
Maximum resonance point is a part of your voice that is the lowest end of your natural range that signifies pride, that signifies calm.

2692
02:10:41.683 --> 02:10:46.746
So, for example, when I'm afraid or a little bit nervous, like I'll tend to go a little bit higher in my vocal voice.

2693
02:10:46.946 --> 02:10:47.286
range.

2694
02:10:47.446 --> 02:10:52.009
And if I were to do the entire presentation in this tone of voice or I was talking to this, it would be horrible, right?

2695
02:10:52.029 --> 02:10:52.770
You would not want to listen to it.

2696
02:10:52.790 --> 02:10:54.911
And that's because I'm tightening my vocal cords.

2697
02:10:54.931 --> 02:10:59.475
And when someone's very anxious, they tighten their shoulders, they tighten their neck, they tighten their chin.

2698
02:10:59.595 --> 02:11:01.276
It's more of a loser feeling, right?

2699
02:11:01.316 --> 02:11:02.977
And you're also speaking a little bit faster then.

2700
02:11:03.338 --> 02:11:04.379
Oh, interesting.

2701
02:11:04.579 --> 02:11:07.841
I didn't even notice it, but yes, I think I was, yeah, brushing, brushing, yeah.

2702
02:11:08.321 --> 02:11:09.061
And I had less breath.

2703
02:11:09.121 --> 02:11:11.603
Like, I'm actually out of breath after doing that.

2704
02:11:11.943 --> 02:11:15.865
So when we don't have breath, speaking too quickly, my vocal cords are tense.

2705
02:11:15.985 --> 02:11:19.587
You can hear it, and they're taking up less even vocal space, right?

2706
02:11:20.228 --> 02:11:22.009
Winners use this maximum resonance point.

2707
02:11:22.049 --> 02:11:23.470
So we can actually try it if you want to.

2708
02:11:23.530 --> 02:11:27.512
So at the very top of your – you're going to take in a deep breath and say hello at the top of your breath.

2709
02:11:27.532 --> 02:11:28.072
So it sounds like this.

2710
02:11:28.733 --> 02:11:29.013
Hello.

2711
02:11:30.669 --> 02:11:36.792
Okay, I'm a little bit sick, hence why my voice might sound a bit different today, so I'm a little bit deeper than normal, but... Hello?

2712
02:11:37.412 --> 02:11:37.793
Horrible.

2713
02:11:37.953 --> 02:11:39.053
Yeah, that was embarrassing.

2714
02:11:39.814 --> 02:11:40.214
Horrible.

2715
02:11:40.254 --> 02:11:40.434
Yeah.

2716
02:11:40.814 --> 02:11:45.997
Right, but I hear, I listen in on Zoom calls, and I hear people, that's their very first word.

2717
02:11:47.048 --> 02:11:50.290
Like they literally hold their breath and they say, good morning.

2718
02:11:50.510 --> 02:11:50.890
Hello.

2719
02:11:51.110 --> 02:11:52.391
Hello, everyone.

2720
02:11:52.631 --> 02:11:52.951
Hi.

2721
02:11:52.971 --> 02:11:53.712
Ooh.

2722
02:11:54.092 --> 02:11:58.054
You are actually giving away your vocal competence because I'm so far away from my maximum resonance point.

2723
02:11:58.074 --> 02:12:01.416
My maximum resonance point is when I speak on the out breath.

2724
02:12:01.776 --> 02:12:03.257
So my vocal cords are relaxed.

2725
02:12:03.317 --> 02:12:04.357
So now listen to the difference.

2726
02:12:04.377 --> 02:12:04.998
So here's the hi.

2727
02:12:05.478 --> 02:12:05.878
Hello.

2728
02:12:06.459 --> 02:12:07.679
Versus hello.

2729
02:12:08.820 --> 02:12:10.721
Both me, but you're going to treat me totally differently.

2730
02:12:10.741 --> 02:12:12.542
So now take a deep breath and say hello on the out breath.

2731
02:12:14.440 --> 02:12:14.720
Hello.

2732
02:12:15.381 --> 02:12:15.601
Right.

2733
02:12:16.062 --> 02:12:19.405
Now, that sounds more like you because you usually use your maximum resonance point.

2734
02:12:19.545 --> 02:12:19.645
Yeah.

2735
02:12:19.945 --> 02:12:20.065
Right?

2736
02:12:20.085 --> 02:12:21.086
You're very good at that.

2737
02:12:21.707 --> 02:12:27.132
And I've noticed that in work culture, people who use their maximum resonance point, they are listened to more.

2738
02:12:27.813 --> 02:12:30.755
They are easy to talk to because we want to listen to them.

2739
02:12:31.276 --> 02:12:33.898
They take up more aura more riz because we're like, ah.

2740
02:12:33.978 --> 02:12:34.139
Yeah.

2741
02:12:34.719 --> 02:12:36.420
Because we can hear their confidence.

2742
02:12:36.460 --> 02:12:38.001
We can hear their relaxation.

2743
02:12:38.462 --> 02:12:41.724
And so vocal cues are such an important aspect of charisma.

2744
02:12:41.744 --> 02:12:43.965
You know, all of these questions are beautiful.

2745
02:12:44.566 --> 02:12:47.387
But how you say your words is just as important as what you say.

2746
02:12:48.228 --> 02:12:53.171
If I were to ask, so, like, what's your personal passion project, I guess?

2747
02:12:55.527 --> 02:12:57.868
I couldn't even do it.

2748
02:12:58.148 --> 02:12:59.828
This stuff is so terrible.

2749
02:13:00.389 --> 02:13:06.050
You know, like my lack of vocal care, you immediately hear and it tunes you out, right?

2750
02:13:06.471 --> 02:13:10.112
So if I don't have good intention here, it does leak out.

2751
02:13:10.132 --> 02:13:12.253
That's why earlier when you asked me, like, does intention matter?

2752
02:13:12.733 --> 02:13:15.734
I said, if you have intention to care and try, it's going to matter.

2753
02:13:16.134 --> 02:13:19.275
But if you're not trying, people will hear it.

2754
02:13:19.755 --> 02:13:20.636
And a lot of that is voice.

2755
02:13:20.656 --> 02:13:26.579
And I think that very charismatic people, they're imbuing their voice with that winning, calm confidence.

2756
02:13:26.619 --> 02:13:27.520
And we want to catch it.

2757
02:13:27.940 --> 02:13:28.920
What about the rest of me?

2758
02:13:29.000 --> 02:13:32.723
So we've talked about some of the specific conversational questions at the three stages.

2759
02:13:32.763 --> 02:13:33.983
We've talked about vocal tone.

2760
02:13:34.544 --> 02:13:37.365
Is there any other part of being a great conversationalist?

2761
02:13:37.405 --> 02:13:41.188
And I'm thinking now about, I guess we talked about hands and taking up space.

2762
02:13:41.208 --> 02:13:43.329
But even eye contact, I think about this a lot.

2763
02:13:43.689 --> 02:13:44.530
It takes a lot of time.

2764
02:13:45.490 --> 02:13:50.932
dare I say, confidence, for me to look you in the eyes like this, Vanessa, and ask you a question.

2765
02:13:51.252 --> 02:13:57.154
That is because when we are making eye contact, chemically, we're producing oxytocin, which is great for connection.

2766
02:13:57.514 --> 02:14:00.175
But also, you are not able to process as much.

2767
02:14:01.015 --> 02:14:08.798
The reason why eye contact is quite complicated, and I think sometimes the clips on social media, I don't like clips very much because it takes off the nuance.

2768
02:14:09.778 --> 02:14:13.361
Eye contact, yes, universally, it's good when we have oxytocin.

2769
02:14:13.841 --> 02:14:16.604
But also, I cannot do complex thinking when I'm doing this with you.

2770
02:14:17.504 --> 02:14:17.625
Right?

2771
02:14:17.645 --> 02:14:19.966
Like when I'm trying to remember something, I immediately look away.

2772
02:14:20.427 --> 02:14:22.549
If you were to ask me a complex math problem, I look away.

2773
02:14:23.029 --> 02:14:26.472
And so in conversation, we actually do not want 100% eye contact.

2774
02:14:26.932 --> 02:14:28.453
We don't even want 70% eye contact.

2775
02:14:28.513 --> 02:14:31.415
60-70% eye contact is more ideal in Western cultures.

2776
02:14:31.935 --> 02:14:39.860
But if someone is deep thinking or they are social processing, you actually do want less eye contact because they're trying to access their memories.

2777
02:14:40.180 --> 02:14:42.421
If I'm doing this, I'm purely focused on the connection.

2778
02:14:42.481 --> 02:14:43.522
But we're in an interview.

2779
02:14:43.542 --> 02:14:45.003
I want to, what does my work say?

2780
02:14:45.023 --> 02:14:45.703
What was the research?

2781
02:14:45.723 --> 02:14:46.343
What was the number?

2782
02:14:46.924 --> 02:14:51.306
And so that is why it can be sometimes uncomfortable is because it's not allowing your brain to think.

2783
02:14:51.426 --> 02:14:52.467
It's just about connection.

2784
02:14:52.487 --> 02:14:52.707
Right?

2785
02:14:52.747 --> 02:14:54.929
But when you're delivering, like I understand the deliberation.

2786
02:14:54.949 --> 02:14:55.870
You look away when you deliver.

2787
02:14:55.910 --> 02:14:56.950
I do that like I'm doing right now.

2788
02:14:56.970 --> 02:14:57.091
Yeah.

2789
02:14:57.291 --> 02:14:58.472
But then when I deliver the point.

2790
02:14:58.752 --> 02:14:59.112
Oh, yeah.

2791
02:14:59.513 --> 02:15:00.013
I come back.

2792
02:15:00.393 --> 02:15:00.653
Is that.

2793
02:15:00.914 --> 02:15:01.394
You know why?

2794
02:15:01.654 --> 02:15:02.935
Because one, yes, you're trying to connect.

2795
02:15:02.955 --> 02:15:07.899
But two, when you are delivering, you want to watch my face to see, do I believe you?

2796
02:15:07.919 --> 02:15:08.600
Mm-hmm.

2797
02:15:08.780 --> 02:15:10.021
Am I raising my eyebrows?

2798
02:15:10.161 --> 02:15:11.663
Am I showing you disgust?

2799
02:15:12.123 --> 02:15:13.444
Am I like, I don't believe it.

2800
02:15:13.484 --> 02:15:14.745
I harden my lower lid.

2801
02:15:15.486 --> 02:15:21.291
So the reason why we'll often like we're processing, we're processing and then we're delivering is because two things are happening at once.

2802
02:15:21.311 --> 02:15:22.092
We're trying to connect.

2803
02:15:22.272 --> 02:15:24.274
I want you to hear my point and feel it with oxytocin.

2804
02:15:24.754 --> 02:15:26.436
But also I want to see, do you believe me?

2805
02:15:27.076 --> 02:15:28.517
Or are you raising your eyebrows?

2806
02:15:29.077 --> 02:15:29.237
Right?

2807
02:15:29.257 --> 02:15:35.041
So I'm making more eye contact with you because I'm trying to see where your interest lies.

2808
02:15:35.361 --> 02:15:35.561
Right?

2809
02:15:35.821 --> 02:15:37.082
Whereas you're looking at your eye package.

2810
02:15:37.102 --> 02:15:38.062
You're trying to get to the next question.

2811
02:15:38.082 --> 02:15:39.343
You want to make sure that we're covering everything.

2812
02:15:39.783 --> 02:15:40.984
That's why this is not natural.

2813
02:15:41.384 --> 02:15:42.845
This doesn't usually have a natural conversation.

2814
02:15:43.265 --> 02:15:43.966
But it's also...

2815
02:15:45.046 --> 02:15:50.748
When you're in conversation, you're better off making eye contact in the first few seconds of an interaction.

2816
02:15:51.249 --> 02:15:57.011
So right when you're on that greeting, oh, it's so good to see you hopping on video or in person because you're giving that burst of oxytocin.

2817
02:15:57.571 --> 02:15:59.472
But then you're okay to look away.

2818
02:15:59.512 --> 02:16:00.593
You're okay to process.

2819
02:16:01.173 --> 02:16:06.095
You might want to make your eye contact most when you're trying to suss out how is this person receiving this?

2820
02:16:06.995 --> 02:16:12.600
That also makes you easy to talk to because if I notice that you're lighting up about something, I can pivot more into that.

2821
02:16:12.661 --> 02:16:17.145
If I notice that you're like, oh, that's horrible, I want to be easy to talk to by pivoting away from it.

2822
02:16:17.425 --> 02:16:23.410
And when you're talking to me, what is the best way to be a good listener?

2823
02:16:24.371 --> 02:16:25.652
Some people go like they interrupt.

2824
02:16:25.692 --> 02:16:27.573
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2825
02:16:27.953 --> 02:16:32.796
And then you've got other people who will like nod and like really sort of encourage and cheerlead when you're talking.

2826
02:16:33.137 --> 02:16:38.460
And then you'll have the like some people that they kind of they don't know they're doing it, but they start to like scowl.

2827
02:16:38.540 --> 02:16:38.860
I know.

2828
02:16:39.060 --> 02:16:39.340
I know.

2829
02:16:39.380 --> 02:16:40.601
Yes, yes.

2830
02:16:40.641 --> 02:16:41.502
That really bothers me.

2831
02:16:42.342 --> 02:16:46.065
But I struggle with that a little bit just personally because I'm a people pleaser.

2832
02:16:46.225 --> 02:16:50.108
So when someone's like, I actually have a friend who defaults to the disgust micro expression.

2833
02:16:50.409 --> 02:16:51.409
He doesn't even realize he's doing it.

2834
02:16:51.429 --> 02:16:52.150
It's a punctuator.

2835
02:16:52.330 --> 02:16:55.052
A facial punctuator is a nonverbal habit.

2836
02:16:55.132 --> 02:16:56.854
It doesn't actually mean anything emotionally.

2837
02:16:56.874 --> 02:16:58.195
It's just how they are at rest.

2838
02:16:58.535 --> 02:17:00.777
I've had to tell myself he doesn't actually feel disgusted.

2839
02:17:01.517 --> 02:17:02.959
So you're talking about warmth.

2840
02:17:03.819 --> 02:17:05.861
All the listening cues are about warmth.

2841
02:17:06.381 --> 02:17:08.803
So listening cues are nodding, triple nod.

2842
02:17:09.763 --> 02:17:13.066
In India, Bulgaria, and Pakistan, nodding is a little bit different, so I always try to make that note.

2843
02:17:13.666 --> 02:17:17.669
A head tilt is a universal warmth signal because we're exposing our ear up to the sky.

2844
02:17:18.429 --> 02:17:18.829
A lean in.

2845
02:17:19.710 --> 02:17:24.512
is warm and competent, both actually, because I'm trying to literally get closer to you to understand more deeply.

2846
02:17:25.152 --> 02:17:27.713
A competent cue where you're listening is a lower lid flex.

2847
02:17:28.214 --> 02:17:31.395
So if I flex my lower lids at you, this is a universal response.

2848
02:17:31.795 --> 02:17:34.276
When we flex our lower lids, we're trying to see something better, right?

2849
02:17:34.296 --> 02:17:35.817
If I say, do you see that over there?

2850
02:17:35.977 --> 02:17:37.017
We harden our lower lids.

2851
02:17:37.357 --> 02:17:43.000
What we're doing biologically is we're hooding our eyes to block the light so I can see more detail.

2852
02:17:43.620 --> 02:17:45.481
So when you're speaking and someone goes,

2853
02:17:47.153 --> 02:17:49.134
They are trying to deeply understand you.

2854
02:17:49.454 --> 02:17:51.134
It is not positive or negative.

2855
02:17:51.194 --> 02:17:53.275
It is a cue of intense focus.

2856
02:17:53.955 --> 02:17:54.456
Take note.

2857
02:17:55.656 --> 02:18:01.238
Because whatever you just said has triggered something in their brain that they're going, what, what, what, what, what, what, what?

2858
02:18:01.899 --> 02:18:02.059
Right.

2859
02:18:02.079 --> 02:18:11.728
So when I'm giving, you know, a presentation to a C-suite and have a couple or, you know, investors or important people and I see someone do a lower lid flex, I have a choice.

2860
02:18:12.428 --> 02:18:17.813
I can take note of what I just said and bookmark it or I can stop and do dynamic presenting.

2861
02:18:18.073 --> 02:18:20.155
We haven't even talked about presenting, but I can.

2862
02:18:20.395 --> 02:18:21.596
Does this make sense?

2863
02:18:22.037 --> 02:18:22.217
Yeah.

2864
02:18:22.317 --> 02:18:22.737
Are we good?

2865
02:18:22.897 --> 02:18:23.558
Any questions here?

2866
02:18:23.898 --> 02:18:25.319
You know, let me give you another example of this.

2867
02:18:26.000 --> 02:18:34.125
So you can also look for these cues, which also makes you a pleasure to listen to because I am so deeply listening that I'm trying to respond to your emotional reaction to what I'm saying.

2868
02:18:34.485 --> 02:18:44.151
I think that is a really, we sort of touched on it earlier, but I think it's a really unappreciated part of being a good conversationalist is being dynamic based on the cues you're getting back.

2869
02:18:44.191 --> 02:18:44.992
Yes, yes.

2870
02:18:45.712 --> 02:18:48.694
Actually, please let's double click on this for a second because I think…

2871
02:18:50.235 --> 02:18:54.991
My planners, my planners who are watching are like, okay, I got a plan, Vanessa, I got it.

2872
02:18:55.011 --> 02:18:56.135
I got my questions.

2873
02:18:57.772 --> 02:19:02.514
What I don't want you to do is have the plan, ask the question, and then check off to the next one.

2874
02:19:03.574 --> 02:19:03.754
Right?

2875
02:19:03.874 --> 02:19:06.675
The whole point of these is actually to be quite dynamic.

2876
02:19:06.815 --> 02:19:10.416
It might be that you ask, what's your personal passion project?

2877
02:19:10.456 --> 02:19:12.817
And you spend hours talking about that.

2878
02:19:13.197 --> 02:19:13.797
What a pleasure.

2879
02:19:13.817 --> 02:19:14.357
What a delight.

2880
02:19:15.338 --> 02:19:19.219
That means you're being dynamic in that, whoa, you both lit up on it.

2881
02:19:19.239 --> 02:19:19.839
You can go there.

2882
02:19:19.859 --> 02:19:20.579
You can dive deep.

2883
02:19:21.220 --> 02:19:24.261
So I want you to have a plan, but I also want you to be dynamic with it.

2884
02:19:24.321 --> 02:19:25.001
Both can be true.

2885
02:19:25.697 --> 02:19:33.591
Vanessa, of all the things that we have discussed, is there anything we haven't talked about that we should have talked about that appears within your new book, Conversation?

2886
02:19:34.071 --> 02:19:37.577
How to connect with anyone and make every interaction count.

2887
02:19:38.683 --> 02:19:47.726
There is one thing that we didn't get to touch on that I think can help you prepare for good conversation, just very practically, which is you are going to be asked boring questions.

2888
02:19:47.986 --> 02:19:48.886
We talked about this earlier.

2889
02:19:49.966 --> 02:19:54.728
I want you to, if you are willing, write down the questions you are asked the most often.

2890
02:19:55.748 --> 02:20:01.090
Everyone kind of gets similar questions depending on their job, their industry, where they are in the world.

2891
02:20:01.690 --> 02:20:03.350
What are the questions you're asked most often?

2892
02:20:03.870 --> 02:20:04.871
And how can you do better?

2893
02:20:05.831 --> 02:20:08.653
And then think of what are gifts to the other person?

2894
02:20:09.614 --> 02:20:11.296
Not just interesting for you, right?

2895
02:20:11.316 --> 02:20:22.525
Like not just like, oh, well, you know, an interesting fact about me, but like what is a story or an anecdote or an answer that's going to let the other person be like, oh, me too, or really?

2896
02:20:22.865 --> 02:20:23.906
Or what got you into that?

2897
02:20:24.086 --> 02:20:25.087
Or why did you do that?

2898
02:20:25.467 --> 02:20:28.129
Because then you're actually, your answer is doing two things.

2899
02:20:29.035 --> 02:20:31.218
It's interesting, but it's also conversationally generous.

2900
02:20:31.758 --> 02:20:32.980
You're not creating a dead end for yourself.

2901
02:20:33.260 --> 02:20:36.504
And this is so true because there is a most interesting thing about everybody.

2902
02:20:36.704 --> 02:20:39.388
And that most interesting thing will beget the same set of questions.

2903
02:20:39.888 --> 02:20:40.088
Yes.

2904
02:20:40.289 --> 02:20:43.753
There's someone that I know, and she has a very interesting career.

2905
02:20:44.133 --> 02:20:46.576
But in one part of her career, she went to Bible school for a couple of years.

2906
02:20:46.596 --> 02:20:46.897
Yeah.

2907
02:20:47.377 --> 02:20:49.298
And I've never met anybody that went to Bible school for three years.

2908
02:20:49.318 --> 02:20:52.180
So I imagine this person always gets asked about Bible school for three years.

2909
02:20:52.581 --> 02:20:53.861
Because everybody wants to know.

2910
02:20:53.881 --> 02:20:54.702
In the three years of her life.

2911
02:20:54.722 --> 02:20:55.342
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2912
02:20:55.783 --> 02:21:01.326
So I remember just thinking then, like, that's the question that everybody, when you introduce it, they were like, Bible school, tell me about it.

2913
02:21:01.386 --> 02:21:01.567
Yeah.

2914
02:21:02.047 --> 02:21:07.550
Or, and I give this example in the book, is my friend Jason, he can't smell or taste.

2915
02:21:08.431 --> 02:21:09.472
And he's always at dinners with people.

2916
02:21:09.492 --> 02:21:10.232
That's all he does all the time.

2917
02:21:10.252 --> 02:21:11.413
He's an editor of Entrepreneur Magazine.

2918
02:21:12.014 --> 02:21:13.335
And so he is always at dinners.

2919
02:21:13.835 --> 02:21:16.377
And he brings up on purpose, people say, what are you ordering?

2920
02:21:16.397 --> 02:21:17.998
Because people ask about food all the time.

2921
02:21:18.018 --> 02:21:20.380
And he goes, well, actually, I have no sense of taste or smell.

2922
02:21:20.660 --> 02:21:21.461
So what's your favorite thing?

2923
02:21:21.501 --> 02:21:22.182
What should I taste?

2924
02:21:22.202 --> 02:21:23.683
If I could taste something, what would you have me taste?

2925
02:21:24.655 --> 02:21:28.937
And it produces incredible conversations, so much so that I was talking to my friend Nicole Lappin.

2926
02:21:29.358 --> 02:21:30.598
She goes, I know Jason.

2927
02:21:31.039 --> 02:21:33.100
And she began to tell me about his interesting stories.

2928
02:21:33.900 --> 02:21:36.221
She remembered his interestingness from that answer.

2929
02:21:36.642 --> 02:21:38.302
So even like where are your settings?

2930
02:21:38.703 --> 02:21:40.664
Are you doing coffees or interesting coffee anecdotes?

2931
02:21:40.744 --> 02:21:42.085
Are you always at meals?

2932
02:21:42.145 --> 02:21:42.665
Are you – right?

2933
02:21:42.705 --> 02:21:46.227
So you can also set yourself up and them up for success with those interesting answers.

2934
02:21:46.866 --> 02:21:52.773
So have a script for the questions that you get asked the most that offer gifts to those that are on the receiving end of that answer.

2935
02:21:53.033 --> 02:21:53.194
Yeah.

2936
02:21:53.474 --> 02:21:55.997
And the last thing I would say is this is a plan.

2937
02:21:56.317 --> 02:22:02.224
And the entire goal of this is for you to feel more in control, for you to feel more confident.

2938
02:22:02.244 --> 02:22:02.665
Yeah.

2939
02:22:02.765 --> 02:22:13.111
You know, I think as someone who wasn't confident for a long time and who had very awkward conversations for a long time, just knowing that I had a good intent helped me a lot.

2940
02:22:13.891 --> 02:22:17.533
So this is the plan, but also feel free to totally deviate from the plan.

2941
02:22:18.094 --> 02:22:20.035
That when you're in the moment, if you're feeling...

2942
02:22:20.895 --> 02:22:23.918
excited and interested and engaged, go with it.

2943
02:22:24.279 --> 02:22:29.544
If you're feeling, I don't like this person, I don't feel this person, we are off, you can lead the conversation.

2944
02:22:30.085 --> 02:22:31.927
Who did you write this book for, Vanessa?

2945
02:22:32.267 --> 02:22:36.752
So if they've gotten to the stage in the conversation and they're thinking, should I get that book or not?

2946
02:22:36.952 --> 02:22:37.713
Who is it for?

2947
02:22:38.674 --> 02:22:42.618
This is for people who want to stop dreading small talk.

2948
02:22:43.713 --> 02:22:50.200
Dread was a real motivation for me because so many of my students would say, oh, I have to go to the networking event.

2949
02:22:50.300 --> 02:22:51.481
I'm dreading talking to my boss.

2950
02:22:51.861 --> 02:22:54.124
I hate those first five minutes of my team call.

2951
02:22:54.524 --> 02:22:55.785
Oh, I don't know what to talk about on a date.

2952
02:22:55.906 --> 02:22:56.827
First dates are horrible.

2953
02:22:57.600 --> 02:23:00.402
First dates can be fun if you have a conversational plan.

2954
02:23:00.462 --> 02:23:02.163
Even if it's not your person, they can still be fun.

2955
02:23:02.783 --> 02:23:04.044
Conversation can be not awkward.

2956
02:23:04.064 --> 02:23:06.365
It can be great at the start of a meeting if you know how to do it.

2957
02:23:06.825 --> 02:23:08.826
And so I would like to get rid of the dread in your life.

2958
02:23:09.206 --> 02:23:14.209
I would like to get rid of the awkwardness in your life because, and the deeper meaning is we're in a loneliness epidemic.

2959
02:23:15.230 --> 02:23:20.292
And I think if we don't remember how good the joy of conversation is, we won't do it.

2960
02:23:20.813 --> 02:23:26.836
And so if I can take away the dread of conversation and give you beautiful conversation with your person or not, you're going to feel less lonely.

2961
02:23:26.856 --> 02:23:26.956
Okay.

2962
02:23:27.702 --> 02:23:28.883
kind of sounds like it's for all of us.

2963
02:23:28.903 --> 02:23:30.463
I think it's for all of us.

2964
02:23:30.783 --> 02:23:31.584
What a wonderful book.

2965
02:23:31.664 --> 02:23:40.048
And what a perfectly timed book at a time when AI and computers are robbing us of the joy of human conversation.

2966
02:23:40.068 --> 02:23:42.489
And I think increasingly kids are going to struggle with conversations.

2967
02:23:42.509 --> 02:23:43.409
I mean, people are saying this already.

2968
02:23:43.429 --> 02:23:44.310
Teachers say to me that...

2969
02:23:44.910 --> 02:23:48.993
you know, they see their kids in class and they don't know the basic skills of how to relate to each other through conversation.

2970
02:23:49.053 --> 02:23:51.174
So a great book, I think, for parents.

2971
02:23:51.194 --> 02:23:52.014
It was meant to be now.

2972
02:23:52.274 --> 02:23:53.035
It was meant to be now.

2973
02:23:53.095 --> 02:23:53.755
It was meant to be.

2974
02:23:53.775 --> 02:23:55.276
It took you a long time, right?

2975
02:23:55.676 --> 02:23:56.277
Many, many years.

2976
02:23:56.437 --> 02:23:56.757
20 years.

2977
02:23:56.797 --> 02:23:57.077
Wow.

2978
02:23:57.157 --> 02:23:58.918
Well, I'm glad it's here.

2979
02:23:59.299 --> 02:23:59.859
Conversation.

2980
02:24:00.139 --> 02:24:03.581
How to connect with anyone and make every interaction count.

2981
02:24:03.721 --> 02:24:06.703
And I'm going to link it below if anyone wants to go and buy it right now.

2982
02:24:07.183 --> 02:24:07.583
Thank you.

2983
02:24:07.603 --> 02:24:08.604
What a wonderful book, Vanessa.

2984
02:24:08.864 --> 02:24:09.505
Congratulations.

2985
02:24:09.525 --> 02:24:10.185
Oh my goodness.

2986
02:24:10.225 --> 02:24:10.565
Thank you.

2987
02:24:10.605 --> 02:24:11.266
Thank you.

2988
02:24:11.326 --> 02:24:12.226
It is finally here.

2989
02:24:12.246 --> 02:24:13.587
Thank you for helping me bring it into the world.

2990
02:24:14.310 --> 02:24:15.051
It's okay.

2991
02:24:15.271 --> 02:24:16.252
You deserve everything.

2992
02:24:16.432 --> 02:24:17.733
You're such a phenom.

2993
02:24:18.093 --> 02:24:18.914
Oh my gosh.

2994
02:24:19.494 --> 02:24:20.095
I hardly.

2995
02:24:20.115 --> 02:24:21.716
I'm obsessed with people.

2996
02:24:21.856 --> 02:24:22.317
That's it.

2997
02:24:22.757 --> 02:24:26.340
We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for.

2998
02:24:27.061 --> 02:24:41.192
And the question left for you is, do you feel like there are things you sacrificed in your personal life to build your success that you regret and wish you could now get back?

2999
02:24:42.373 --> 02:24:42.553
Yes.

3000
02:24:43.678 --> 02:24:46.223
You know, I briefly mentioned that I moved.

3001
02:24:47.445 --> 02:24:48.727
And I moved to be closer to family.

3002
02:24:50.532 --> 02:24:57.535
And that was because I think I sacrificed friendship and family relationship in the hustle.

3003
02:24:58.536 --> 02:25:00.117
You know, we moved to Austin for work.

3004
02:25:00.477 --> 02:25:02.338
I moved to Austin for work and I left my family.

3005
02:25:03.198 --> 02:25:11.542
And I don't regret Austin because I had some great growth there, but I regret being away from my family when my children were very, very little.

3006
02:25:11.742 --> 02:25:15.664
It was really hard to have babies without my mom, without my sister.

3007
02:25:16.564 --> 02:25:20.627
And so I wish I could have figured that out a little bit differently, but I'm here now.

3008
02:25:23.109 --> 02:25:24.550
And what is it you wish you could get back?

3009
02:25:26.111 --> 02:25:28.934
I felt very alone as a new mom.

3010
02:25:30.115 --> 02:25:32.937
And I don't think that helped me or my children.

3011
02:25:33.297 --> 02:25:35.258
I wish I could get back that time to feel more communal.

3012
02:25:35.479 --> 02:25:38.881
You know, having a baby is such a beautiful thing for family and friends.

3013
02:25:38.941 --> 02:25:43.425
And it was very lonely because I just didn't have a lot of people around me.

3014
02:25:44.257 --> 02:25:44.758
And now you're here.

3015
02:25:45.239 --> 02:25:46.000
Now I'm back.

3016
02:25:46.020 --> 02:25:46.762
Down by the beach in LA.

3017
02:25:46.982 --> 02:25:47.363
I'm back.

3018
02:25:48.044 --> 02:25:49.226
My sister is at my house right now.

3019
02:25:49.607 --> 02:25:49.967
Oh, really?

3020
02:25:49.988 --> 02:25:50.929
With my kids, yes.

3021
02:25:51.190 --> 02:25:52.232
It's good to have you in town.

3022
02:25:53.018 --> 02:25:53.499
I'm so excited.

3023
02:25:53.539 --> 02:25:55.500
And I will come, maybe.

3024
02:25:57.402 --> 02:25:58.023
I don't believe you.

3025
02:25:58.043 --> 02:25:59.024
Only if it's good.

3026
02:25:59.144 --> 02:26:00.205
You don't have to say it.

3027
02:26:00.225 --> 02:26:01.226
I'm not going to invite you to anything.

3028
02:26:02.267 --> 02:26:02.767
Conversation.

3029
02:26:03.268 --> 02:26:05.310
How to connect with anyone and make every interaction count.

3030
02:26:05.350 --> 02:26:06.271
Please do go buy this book.

3031
02:26:06.731 --> 02:26:09.353
Very important to Vanessa and also very important to me by way of that.

3032
02:26:09.373 --> 02:26:10.234
And it's a brilliant, brilliant book.

3033
02:26:10.595 --> 02:26:11.315
One I think that we will need.

3034
02:26:11.716 --> 02:26:12.276
Vanessa, thank you.

3035
02:26:12.376 --> 02:26:12.636
We're done.

3036
02:26:12.657 --> 02:26:13.497
Thank you.

3037
02:26:13.517 --> 02:26:13.778
Thanks.