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This is Marketing Uncomplicated.

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Hi, everybody, and welcome back.

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Today, I'm joined by Leah Nurick, co-founder and CEO of Brandy AI, an AI visibility and generative engine optimization platform helping brands understand how they show up in an AI-generated world.

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As search discovery and content continue to shift, Leah is working in one of the most important areas of marketing right now, helping brands stay visible, trusted and relevant in AI's first channels.

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In this episode, we're going to uncomplicate what AI visibility actually means, why GEO matters, how brands can adapt as search changes and what marketers need to understand as generative AI becomes part of the customer journey.

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Leah, welcome to the show.

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It's so good to have you.

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Thanks so much for having me, Sasha.

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Thanks.

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Happy to be here.

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So let's set the stage a little bit.

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Let's start with the big shift.

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What is changing about the way people discover brands today?

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Well, before it used to be, right, you would go on Google and we would do a search and we get a blue link that would come back.

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And now more than 80% of the time, if you're searching on Google or on Bing or something, you'll get like a synthesized response, right?

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In addition to that, people are moving increasingly into the LLM.

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So yeah.

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They might use ChatGPT or Cod or Perplexity to do their bio research.

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But why does that matter is because regardless of the platform, whether you're still in a traditional search paradigm like a Google toolbar or you're in Perplexity or ChatGPT, there is a different algorithm at play that actually is intending to decipher your intent

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in order to serve up a synthesized response that has a whole bunch of meat in the answer that's not just a blue link anymore.

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I love how we're calling Google and Bing traditional in the world today.

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For people that are just hearing this for the first time, can we break down what generative engine optimization so GEO actually means?

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Yeah.

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So, um, a lot of digital marketers used to talk about SEO, so search engine optimization, and that was the practice of getting that blue link.

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If you were, you know, your company's blue link to the top of a Google page listing, right?

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Like, so that your blue link was at the top.

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Generative engine optimization is very different from that in the sense that, yes, you want to, you want to get your brand mentioned in the answer.

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So, you know, your brand mentioned in the answer, but.

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You also want to influence the synthesis and the way that the market as well as your offerings are represented.

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So it's not just about the click.

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It's also about how is the narrative of your market or the brand narrative of your unique brand represented in the answer.

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And when we, you know, there was actually an article that came out months ago when this

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not months ago, like a while ago when GEO was just, you know, kind of hitting the market and everybody was talking about it.

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And there was an article that came out in the New Yorker, funny enough, written by a non-marketer that was saying, oh my God, SEO is dead.

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And you know, I really want to cut through that because it's not that SEO is dead.

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It's that SEO has evolved and there is an additional component, which is GEO.

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Would that be an accurate statement?

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Yeah, I think so.

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I mean, I always shy away from anybody who's claiming, you know, like the Wicked Witch is dead or SEO is dead or whatever.

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Because print has been dead for like the last 25 years, right?

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Yeah, it's dead, except that the New York Times Sunday edition shows up on my porch every week.

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But yeah, so I mean...

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Everything evolves, but what's really different about GEO as compared to how people used to define SEO is that it involves more storytelling.

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So, you know, a lot of marketers and entrepreneurs, they tell the story of what the brand is, what the promise is, what the impact is on people's lives in a positive manner and how it's moving the world in a more positive direction.

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Seo didn't do that.

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It returned a blue link for somebody to click on.

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Right.

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And now what you're talking about is you're talking about how do I take my story around my brand and the value propositions of the products or services that I bring to market and how do I get that reflected?

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in a synthesized answer, like, Hey, what's the best, what are the best candles for people with allergies or something like that?

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And like, you want that you want a brand to come back, but you also want to say, yeah, this is why people with allergies suffer from these types of candles, right?

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When they're burning.

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So it is a much more narrative development and optimizing for brand recognition in that answer.

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Yeah.

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It was almost like when you were like, what's the best candles for allergies?

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That was almost like the long form SEO where the AI sort of breaks it down from the variety of different keywords.

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And like you said, sort of further enhances and expands on what somebody is actually looking for.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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There's a thing called like, it's called fan out query.

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So basically what happens is this, these AI models, like if I ask it every, every time I light a candle, I sneeze.

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what's going on.

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It's going to try to determine my intent, like, well, okay, she doesn't like, well, obviously she doesn't like sneezing, but it's going to break it down sometimes.

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Like we see some of the models can break it down into 70 questions in order to try to decipher what Leah's intent is in asking that.

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So there's a lot of different questions that happen that, and it's a completely different way that the model quote thinks than a traditional kind of matching like syntax versus semantic, right?

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So I'm matching a pattern of here's a keyword and another keyword and it matches.

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Okay.

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Put it to the top of the list, right?

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Where this is more about like, Hey, what's the intent of the person who's searching and

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solutions to that problem that I can serve up, which is very different.

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But it's not like SEO is great, better than, or GEO is better than SEO.

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It's just the algorithms have changed and SEO still plays a role.

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It's different.

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Yeah.

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And SEO still plays a role.

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Cause if I like to think about like the definition of SEO, like technical structure, you know, can it be found because an LLM can't read what you write or a piece of

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media coverage or the notes in the podcast, you know, that you're going to post to YouTube unless it can be found.

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So in that sense, the indexability, the category matching, the technical structure, all that that are the foundations of SEO is still important.

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But then how do you get the reflection of the brand purpose, the values?

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How do you connect empathetically with the person who's going to be getting that response?

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That's a whole different game.

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Yeah, no, absolutely.

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So you launched Brandy AI after recognizing that generative AI was creating that visibility gap for brands.

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What was the gap that you saw in the market?

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Okay, so yeah, before I started Brandy AI, I ran a PR firm for like 14 years that was mostly focused on B2B tech.

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And we would be talking to prospective clients or our clients and we'd start trying to, you know, they'd start talking to us like, okay, if I invest in doing PR programs or own content, how's that actually going to affect how I come back in the new AI?

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responses.

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So, and that was, you know, that was, oh my gosh, 18 months ago.

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It's so long ago, but the world moves so quick now.

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So, so that was kind of it like, wow, you know, how does all this awesome earned media coverage that we're getting for these people, is it actually making a difference and impact in this new AI first marketing world?

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So that's how we saw the problem.

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And then, and then we fixed it and built this great software platform.

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And here we are.

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off to the races.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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A whole bunch of things, 18 months later.

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So I love it.

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It's crazy.

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Yeah.

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I know 18 months.

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Like you said, it's moving so much faster than what it would have done a long time ago.

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Yeah.

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And customers like,

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B2C companies, product companies, professional services companies, super technical robotics companies, pharmaceutical companies, like everybody needs it at any stage.

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So like, you know, your audience, if you're an entrepreneur and you're starting, if you're just starting or you are, you know, you're more mature and your business is, you know, making a good buck and all that.

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The world has changed.

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So you, somebody, you got to figure out a geo, right?

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Like it's, it's going to be just standard and all marketing budgets.

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It's a question of how do you solve that?

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And there's lots of different ways to solve it.

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There's some great agencies out there that can help them solve the problem.

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You can do some stuff on your own.

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But it's early days.

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And if you get started now in trying to optimize your presence across all channels, because it's not just the web, right?

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It pulls in things from like user-generated content, social platforms, like I said, or in media coverage, that you'll start to future-proof your brand.

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in trying to think geo first, even if you're not ready to go all in, just starting to think about what that looks like now with every piece of content you put out is pretty important to future-proofing your brand.

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Yeah, no, absolutely.

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Let's talk a little bit about the structure of how you build out, you know, getting found on AI.

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So I mean, my question is when an AI tool recommends a product and service or a company or,

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or category leader, what factors influence whether a brand appears or doesn't appear?

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So as opposed to some other digital things, there's no tricking the AI.

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I highly recommend don't try to trick it, right?

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So for an entrepreneurial group that might be listening to this podcast, those brands who are true to their brand promise, who are really trying to build products that make a difference, they will win, right?

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So why do I say that?

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I say that because the AI looks for credibility.

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So it looks for authority and credibility.

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So the more you have a presence out there that is authoritative and credible, whether that is reviews, whether that's earned media coverage, whether it's social posts from third parties, and then that it's perception of those reviews being matched and underscored by your own message validates that the truth is out there and it's the right truth.

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So once it begins to trust the brand, then it will return it.

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So what that means is, I mean, there's a lot of different ways to do that.

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There's like structured content, but also you can't underestimate that there are domains you do not own that are going to influence what the AI thinks about you in your setting.

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So is it more, I mean, SEO was always about, you know, content and having that structure on your website.

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Would this be similar in terms of like content, PR, technical structure, brand positioning, or is it all of the above?

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Well, SEO wasn't really highly influenced by like earned media coverage, unless there were like link backs and things like that.

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Most media organizations stopped doing that, the links to the site, because they didn't want to be gamed.

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So, but yes, to your point,

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's a lot of that.

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It's about structured content on your own site, but it's the other stuff too.

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Like, how do I look at, do I do syndicated content on the domains that are showing that tend to be cited the most?

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So when people think about GEO, they think about it like, okay, well, I just want to get mentioned in the answer, right?

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Like, I just want to come back.

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But when you think about it, how are you going to come back?

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You're going to come back,

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what other people are saying about you too.

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So the citation component, when we get a response and like, like even if you're looking at Google AI overview on the right side, sometimes you'll see all the links.

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Most people don't go and look at the links unless they're like, huh, that answer is weird.

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Where is it getting that from?

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Like, click on that.

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But those citations, think about it, like the citations are what informs the response.

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So it's looking at all that going, huh, you know, is this valid?

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Is it not?

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And now I'm going to cite it because it believes it's valid.

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So it's not only like if I ask about a brand, it's not only going to cite that brand, it's going to cite.

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user reviews, it's gonna cite media, it's gonna cite social posts, it's gonna cite a whole bunch of different things.

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So understanding which domains are the most authoritative in your market

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gives you the ability then to like reach out to those domains, potentially pitch those domains for press coverage, maybe identify influencers, all of that.

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So you have a cohesive multi-touch messaging campaign that comes together in an AI response.

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But I was just gonna ask you about, you know, how brands can think about authority.

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So that sort of helped, but do we wanna take that a little further in terms of digging into it?

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Sure.

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Do you wanna?

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I'm sorry to say that.

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I mean, how should brands be thinking about authority in the AI age?

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Yeah, so you know, like, I spent my whole career in marketing.

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I wrote a lot of marketing, fluffy, fluffy marketing.

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Yeah, I think everyone did back then.

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We're pioneering, you know, blah, blah, blah.

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Right.

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Like this kind of thing.

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Right.

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So the best platform that ever was, you know, this kind of thing.

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Don't do that anymore.

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Those don't do that.

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That's like number one.

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Don't do it.

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Like, right.

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Like, like, that's why I always talk about brand promise, like.

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We shouldn't all be going, not to sound like Pollyanna, Miss Naivete, but we probably shouldn't be going to work every day trying to hack it together just to get a paycheck.

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We all need to eat food, but we should probably be doing things that we care about.

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And companies that are out there hurting turtles or having fast fashion getting thrown into landfills eventually, and they aren't necessarily fulfilling a brand promise of what it is,

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in order to truly connect with who their demographic should be, that it's like a tricky, tricky kind of thing, you're not going to win.

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So the reason you're not going to win is because you can't control every channel.

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You can't control every perception.

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So the number one thing you can do if you want to be represented accurately and in a positive way in AI is really do be a good steward of your business and of your customer relationships.

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That's for off domain, right?

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So that's one thing.

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Then the other things you can do to actually, that you can measure besides customer retention and things like that, is you can speak honestly and transparently about what it is you're doing.

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You can be utility driven.

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Like I'm actually creating blog content on my website that actually helps to solve a problem that maybe somebody has.

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And then the AI will read that and it will summarize it.

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It will see it as credible instead of like trickery.

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And it may use that.

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So like, let's say that, you know, I created the best pen.

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I, you know, I believed in this pen, these new types of pens, they write upside down.

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They're made from sustainable material.

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They never run out of ink.

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They're good for my hand.

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If I had arthritis in my wrist, like all these things, right?

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Like the reason that Leah made this pen is because Leah believes that this is really good for people.

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Right?

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So what I would say is, you know, maybe I'd create blog content that was around like, you know, what,

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what arthritis sufferers can do when writing or something like that.

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Things that actually people are searching for, because probably if you had arthritis, you're probably searching for like, what's the best pen for people with arthritis?

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Like if I like to journal.

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As simple as that.

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Yeah.

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I like to journal.

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Yeah.

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00:16:42.692 --> 00:16:43.952
But I have arthritis.

210
00:16:44.633 --> 00:16:45.313
What do I do?

211
00:16:45.373 --> 00:16:46.893
Chat GPT, right?

212
00:16:47.173 --> 00:16:50.034
I don't like to journal and I don't have arthritis, but you get my point, right?

213
00:16:50.054 --> 00:16:54.715
So I was creating these, a pen that did that.

214
00:16:54.735 --> 00:16:56.356
Like I, that's what I should be doing.

215
00:16:56.396 --> 00:16:57.776
I should be creating that content.

216
00:16:57.816 --> 00:17:06.879
I mean, not to plug Brandy, but one of the things that Brandy does is Brandy identifies what the real customer pain points are of people within your market.

217
00:17:07.363 --> 00:17:10.445
So it gives you ideas about the things that you should write.

218
00:17:10.465 --> 00:17:16.009
That's one part of the product, because it can go out and actually identify what are the problems?

219
00:17:16.029 --> 00:17:19.411
Like if I had made this pen, like what are, what are people searching for?

220
00:17:19.451 --> 00:17:25.075
Like, what are their emotional triggers that like causes them to get me frustrated or not have their lives good or.

221
00:17:25.582 --> 00:17:27.924
whatever it is, and then it will identify that.

222
00:17:28.024 --> 00:17:42.816
So if you can find something like that, even if you're not ready to buy a platform, but even if you're doing it anecdotally, if you have customer research, it tells you what it is that people, that your customers really care about, then that's the kind of stuff that you should be creating.

223
00:17:44.197 --> 00:17:44.597
I love it.

224
00:17:45.158 --> 00:17:50.042
What today are the biggest misconceptions that companies have about AI visibility?

225
00:17:50.262 --> 00:17:51.483
They think they can trick it.

226
00:17:52.624 --> 00:17:53.705
You talked about that, yeah.

227
00:17:54.177 --> 00:18:11.910
They think it's like, I mean, because back when the SEO times, like a lot of times, a lot of it, you know, not everybody, but a lot of it was like, you know, press the button and do the tricking and whatever, and it'll come up and then the models would change and then everybody be on their heels like, oh God, I lost my first page ranking.

228
00:18:11.930 --> 00:18:12.591
What do I do now?

229
00:18:13.131 --> 00:18:13.711
Just don't do that.

230
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.180
Like, don't try to do that with GEO.

231
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:18.941
It's not like, we've already seen it with the model changes.

232
00:18:18.961 --> 00:18:21.522
They deprioritize content, like just don't do it.

233
00:18:21.702 --> 00:18:23.863
Like it's not, it's not good for your brand.

234
00:18:24.243 --> 00:18:25.463
So that's one thing.

235
00:18:25.943 --> 00:18:32.985
The second thing is, is that I think that a lot of organizations, they think it's still only digital.

236
00:18:33.765 --> 00:18:35.966
And what we're seeing is, is that the people.

237
00:18:37.663 --> 00:18:42.908
everybody in the marketing organization affects how you come back.

238
00:18:42.928 --> 00:18:53.656
So PR people who are out securing earned media coverage or trying to get people on your podcast, the way that that goes, that highly influences a brand.

239
00:18:54.037 --> 00:18:58.340
So earned media, we know 80% within our data set of Brandy, 80% of

240
00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:05.021
throughout our whole platform, 80% of them are from unpaid sources.

241
00:19:05.581 --> 00:19:08.821
So that can be earned media, that can be customer reviews.

242
00:19:09.421 --> 00:19:27.504
So don't underestimate the role that all the people within your marketing organization can play because PR and comps, content, product marketing, all of these folks, anything that they put out there or secure is actually is making an impact as well.

243
00:19:27.624 --> 00:19:31.065
It's not just about your own website and it's not just about digital.

244
00:19:31.857 --> 00:19:32.077
Yeah.

245
00:19:32.277 --> 00:19:40.623
Do you think, and I kind of love this question because I think it forces the founder or the entrepreneur to be thinking about this as well.

246
00:19:41.043 --> 00:19:52.431
But maybe there's an aspect of AI forcing brands to get clear about who they are and what they want to be known for by digging in a little deeper to actually get found.

247
00:19:52.531 --> 00:19:57.575
Because it's a way, to your point, as you're saying, it synthesizes brands.

248
00:19:58.182 --> 00:20:03.188
the response back versus just sending like a blue link, which is what we were used to in the past.

249
00:20:04.089 --> 00:20:04.369
Yeah.

250
00:20:04.689 --> 00:20:07.372
I like to say, well, I stole it from my dad.

251
00:20:07.633 --> 00:20:09.094
My dad used to say this all the time.

252
00:20:09.114 --> 00:20:09.775
He was a teacher.

253
00:20:10.235 --> 00:20:13.139
He'd say, unclear writing is a function of unclear thinking.

254
00:20:14.140 --> 00:20:16.142
And we'd be like, oh God, there he goes again.

255
00:20:16.505 --> 00:20:19.047
But the point is, is that it's true, right?

256
00:20:19.107 --> 00:20:20.088
Exactly what you said.

257
00:20:20.168 --> 00:20:25.051
Like, if you're not consistent in what you're saying, you don't appear credible.

258
00:20:25.311 --> 00:20:26.712
You don't appear authoritative.

259
00:20:27.033 --> 00:20:29.655
And you're inconsistent in how you're going to come back.

260
00:20:30.215 --> 00:20:37.420
So it might describe you one day as the company that makes the best pens for people with wrist arthritis.

261
00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.423
And the next day, it's going to describe you as the cheap pen company that's

262
00:20:41.763 --> 00:20:45.066
that, you know, is a throwaway and you're like, no, that's not who we are.

263
00:20:45.446 --> 00:20:46.948
Well, who do you want to be?

264
00:20:47.468 --> 00:21:01.219
Be consistent, be clear, and then be consistent in all the communications that you have from your own writing to the press coverage that you secure to even the messaging on your performance marketing pages and all of that.

265
00:21:01.580 --> 00:21:04.422
And you'll, I mean, so yeah, to your point, super valid.

266
00:21:05.477 --> 00:21:05.697
Yeah.

267
00:21:05.877 --> 00:21:10.959
So you work with CMOs, product marketers, digital strategists, and so on.

268
00:21:10.979 --> 00:21:17.242
I mean, content creators and even PR, how should these teams be working together differently now?

269
00:21:18.263 --> 00:21:18.603
Yeah.

270
00:21:18.823 --> 00:21:21.544
Like it's has to be incredibly collaborative.

271
00:21:22.264 --> 00:21:28.227
So like, you know, a lot of marketing organizations, there used to be like, you know, everybody's just kind of looking at the digital person.

272
00:21:28.247 --> 00:21:29.548
Like, why do they get all the budget?

273
00:21:29.708 --> 00:21:29.968
Right.

274
00:21:30.168 --> 00:21:31.148
I don't get anything budget.

275
00:21:31.188 --> 00:21:31.409
Right.

276
00:21:31.769 --> 00:21:34.610
I was at a conference last week speaking and I said, Hey guys, like,

277
00:21:35.305 --> 00:21:41.108
it's time to reach across the aisle and hug it out because this is not like, like the budget.

278
00:21:41.148 --> 00:21:42.809
I hope sales was in that room.

279
00:21:42.989 --> 00:21:43.449
I know, right?

280
00:21:43.609 --> 00:21:44.249
No, it's your fault.

281
00:21:44.269 --> 00:21:44.849
It's your fault.

282
00:21:45.590 --> 00:21:45.890
Yeah.

283
00:21:45.950 --> 00:21:51.332
Yeah, but no, I mean that it really has to be a cross collaborative exercise.

284
00:21:51.773 --> 00:22:03.078
And so if you can find a platform or a piece of technology that enables everybody to work within it, regardless of role, if you're the CMO or the founder and you,

285
00:22:03.425 --> 00:22:17.752
you know, if you're the entrepreneur that's running marketing, you can actually see like, you know, maybe I hired a PR firm and they're going in there and they're logging all their results and they're utilizing, you know, if you're using Brandy, you're utilizing it for optimizations and ideation of ideas.

286
00:22:18.112 --> 00:22:24.896
And then, and they're putting it all in there and you can actually see the impact like, oh, my firm took these actions.

287
00:22:25.036 --> 00:22:27.337
It resulted in this and that resulted in

288
00:22:27.877 --> 00:22:31.819
an X percent increase in me coming back in the answer.

289
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:36.561
So like we never had those metrics before as marketing leaders and now you do.

290
00:22:37.081 --> 00:22:45.004
So having everybody do what they do and talk about it together to collaborate will help very much.

291
00:22:45.364 --> 00:22:46.445
And we see it all the time.

292
00:22:48.386 --> 00:22:49.486
Everybody plays a role.

293
00:22:49.706 --> 00:22:54.808
And so, you know, I like to think about AI, like, you know what, we're all scared about, we're scared about losing their jobs.

294
00:22:55.348 --> 00:22:56.569
But the thing is, is that,

295
00:22:57.060 --> 00:22:58.441
That's not happening in marketing.

296
00:22:58.481 --> 00:23:02.202
We see it like human driven content is absolutely crucial to being found.

297
00:23:02.242 --> 00:23:02.902
That's another thing.

298
00:23:02.922 --> 00:23:08.044
You can't press a button and just generate a bunch of AI slop and hope that it's going to make a difference.

299
00:23:08.424 --> 00:23:09.405
There's a lot of that now.

300
00:23:10.085 --> 00:23:13.626
There is so much of that and the models change and guess what happens?

301
00:23:13.826 --> 00:23:15.207
All of that stuff goes away.

302
00:23:15.827 --> 00:23:22.110
So what does last is really good connecting unique content.

303
00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:23.110
Yeah.

304
00:23:24.260 --> 00:23:24.480
Yeah.

305
00:23:24.760 --> 00:23:24.940
So.

306
00:23:25.641 --> 00:23:30.383
So does AI visibility then connect to the demand creation of this whole content play?

307
00:23:30.563 --> 00:23:32.504
Like, yeah.

308
00:23:32.564 --> 00:23:43.109
So I, so what we're seeing from a demand standpoint is like, you know, most companies have experienced a huge drop off in traffic in the past two years and everybody's freaking out, right?

309
00:23:43.169 --> 00:23:51.714
Because what used to be like, you know, the click stream, like click, click, click, click, click, you come here, you have, you know, I'm shooting for X, X conversion rate on my website to purchase.

310
00:23:52.354 --> 00:23:52.574
Well.

311
00:23:52.947 --> 00:23:53.227
Okay.

312
00:23:53.388 --> 00:23:58.294
If your traffic tanked by 30, you better improve your click, your conversion rate.

313
00:23:58.815 --> 00:24:07.386
But what we see now with our customers is that they see a drop-off in keyword generated traffic because nobody's, you know, clicking on a blue link anymore.

314
00:24:07.606 --> 00:24:09.889
And what they see is an increase in direct traffic.

315
00:24:10.610 --> 00:24:10.850
Why?

316
00:24:11.388 --> 00:24:19.071
Because if I go and I search for the pen and it comes back with Leah's pen company, nobody clicks on the Leah's pen link, even if it's cited.

317
00:24:19.272 --> 00:24:23.353
Sometimes they do and you see some AI referral traffic, but the majority of it becomes direct.

318
00:24:23.714 --> 00:24:27.055
They just type in, okay, Leah's pen company, and they go there.

319
00:24:27.115 --> 00:24:30.977
And so then what you see is you see a much higher conversion rate to...

320
00:24:31.577 --> 00:24:35.998
purchase from direct traffic than we've ever seen before in digital.

321
00:24:36.178 --> 00:24:36.419
Yeah.

322
00:24:36.479 --> 00:24:39.820
Because they're already super duper qualified, incredibly qualified.

323
00:24:39.860 --> 00:24:40.880
Cause they already did their research.

324
00:24:40.900 --> 00:24:44.801
Like what's Leah's pen versus Bic pen, which one's better for arthritis.

325
00:24:44.901 --> 00:24:45.121
Right.

326
00:24:45.441 --> 00:24:53.724
And so by the time they go, maybe they go visit two, two different, um, Amazon listings or two different websites.

327
00:24:53.864 --> 00:24:59.566
And then they convert at a much higher rate because they've already done their research through the paradigm of the AI chat experience.

328
00:25:00.646 --> 00:25:01.286
Yeah.

329
00:25:01.446 --> 00:25:05.328
How often should brands be checking how they show up in AI generated answers?

330
00:25:05.348 --> 00:25:07.688
Like what is, what does the data look like on that?

331
00:25:08.929 --> 00:25:09.069
Yeah.

332
00:25:09.109 --> 00:25:13.370
I mean, so at Brandy, we do that as part of the platform and we do it.

333
00:25:13.450 --> 00:25:18.332
We've made a very clear, we have a very clear point of view that we run it on a daily basis.

334
00:25:20.239 --> 00:25:29.705
So there are other companies who they run it, like they give you like a bunch of credits and you say, okay, pull the data now and it'll pull it.

335
00:25:30.165 --> 00:25:34.067
But our data shows that the answers are different the majority of the time, like every day.

336
00:25:34.087 --> 00:25:35.048
For sure.

337
00:25:35.728 --> 00:25:36.609
Every second, really.

338
00:25:36.709 --> 00:25:37.970
I'm almost positive.

339
00:25:38.528 --> 00:25:42.009
Well, and also you want to see the impact, like, hey, I did all this work to increase it.

340
00:25:42.109 --> 00:25:45.491
So is my new blog getting cited?

341
00:25:45.591 --> 00:25:47.632
Is that press release I put out, is it doing anything?

342
00:25:48.052 --> 00:26:03.378
So if I just push the button once a week, is that really, in my opinion, like we made this decision, you know, it was a philosophical decision that we wanted the data to be as reflect as accurately as possible at that moment of time.

343
00:26:04.018 --> 00:26:05.999
of what the actual state of the world is.

344
00:26:06.239 --> 00:26:14.984
Because if I just pull it for reporting like once a month or twice a month or something, I feel like I'm just doing that so I can give my boss a report.

345
00:26:15.784 --> 00:26:16.985
It's not actually true.

346
00:26:17.345 --> 00:26:19.546
It's just that moment in time, right?

347
00:26:19.626 --> 00:26:22.267
So I want it to be more reflective of daily.

348
00:26:22.467 --> 00:26:26.529
So I would say daily, other people would say, oh, it's fine.

349
00:26:26.549 --> 00:26:27.810
You can check it once a week.

350
00:26:28.403 --> 00:26:29.864
or twice a month.

351
00:26:30.104 --> 00:26:35.347
I wouldn't say that because I'm a bit of a data nerd and I'd like to know that the data I have is the most up-to-date.

352
00:26:36.608 --> 00:26:49.116
And just to clarify, if somebody is to sign on to Brandy, to mybrandy.ai, are they managing this on their own or is this something that you guys manage on the backend?

353
00:26:50.017 --> 00:26:52.278
No, we're not a services company, we're a software company.

354
00:26:52.458 --> 00:26:55.060
So yeah, the way it works is,

355
00:26:55.639 --> 00:26:58.762
Some companies have internal teams and they do it themselves.

356
00:26:58.982 --> 00:27:04.807
And because I guess everybody can, there's multiple like personas that log in and use the product.

357
00:27:05.215 --> 00:27:19.401
But then a lot of times we also have a lot of agencies that purchase our product and they do it for their clients or the agent or the brand would buy the product and then they would give their agency a login.

358
00:27:20.001 --> 00:27:27.284
So if you have like a digital agency or a PR agency or marketing agency, a lot of the time they might be doing your GEO.

359
00:27:27.845 --> 00:27:33.607
That's why we have a partner program, an agency partner program, and everybody in our partner program is certified in GEO.

360
00:27:34.051 --> 00:27:40.577
So they have to go through training and like education in order to be certified to actually service brandy customers.

361
00:27:41.838 --> 00:27:47.122
Well, what if they, what if a small business doesn't have a huge marketing team or budget and they wanted to get started on this?

362
00:27:47.162 --> 00:27:49.004
What's the simplest way to begin thinking?

363
00:27:49.024 --> 00:27:54.609
Excuse me, to begin thinking about it, you know, and like, how would they start?

364
00:27:55.049 --> 00:27:58.312
Is this something that, is this a platform that they could jump into and use?

365
00:27:59.488 --> 00:28:00.268
Yeah, you can.

366
00:28:00.308 --> 00:28:05.351
We have companies that are like one or two marketing people who use the platform.

367
00:28:05.531 --> 00:28:15.715
I would suggest that if you do want to do that, you should, you know, say that to yourself, like the GEO is an actual, like real objective for you.

368
00:28:16.236 --> 00:28:25.080
If you're getting the majority of your business from like, you know, on-site sales of conferences or farmer's markets or something like that, it's not.

369
00:28:25.100 --> 00:28:25.380
Yeah.

370
00:28:25.954 --> 00:28:33.078
Not the right platform for you, but if you have a digital presence and you have a person who could focus on it, it would be.

371
00:28:33.798 --> 00:28:44.224
If you only care about like monitoring and not really taking action, like you just want to know, okay, what's happening, but you don't necessarily want to do anything to make it better right away.

372
00:28:44.765 --> 00:28:46.746
You know, Brandy is probably not the right platform for you.

373
00:28:46.766 --> 00:28:50.968
You might go with like a light tool, like a very lighter tool.

374
00:28:51.008 --> 00:28:54.230
Like SEMrush has like a very light tool and...

375
00:28:55.999 --> 00:29:00.281
Yeah, there's like some other like cheap, like not cheap, but they're more affordable and they're cheaper.

376
00:29:00.321 --> 00:29:00.561
Yeah.

377
00:29:01.181 --> 00:29:02.462
Cost effective, we should say.

378
00:29:02.822 --> 00:29:06.263
Cost effective, light tactical monitoring.

379
00:29:06.303 --> 00:29:08.484
Like, hey, okay, I've got 20 prompts.

380
00:29:08.584 --> 00:29:10.305
How is my company coming back in there?

381
00:29:11.566 --> 00:29:12.226
Yeah, yeah.

382
00:29:13.186 --> 00:29:16.027
Where do you think AI visibility is going over the next few years?

383
00:29:16.107 --> 00:29:18.568
I shouldn't even say few years, next couple of months.

384
00:29:19.349 --> 00:29:19.989
You mean tomorrow?

385
00:29:20.869 --> 00:29:22.150
Yeah, exactly.

386
00:29:23.660 --> 00:29:28.084
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of potential for brands.

387
00:29:28.144 --> 00:29:40.974
Like I think that AI can be like AI search can actually be the great democratizer for entrepreneurs, because if you're telling an authentic, credible story and you're doing it consistently, you can beat anybody.

388
00:29:41.635 --> 00:29:51.663
So if you're trying to unseat like a behemoth that's been around for 30 years and you're first to answer the question and you're being authoritative and credible, it,

389
00:29:52.098 --> 00:29:53.939
it democratizes access to customers.

390
00:29:54.420 --> 00:30:01.144
So that's pretty cool because it's like, you know, you don't have to go knock on every single door anymore.

391
00:30:01.364 --> 00:30:03.005
So that's pretty neat.

392
00:30:03.205 --> 00:30:09.109
I do think that ads are going to make their way in and they're already kind of starting to, and we don't, nobody really knows how that's going to shake out.

393
00:30:09.509 --> 00:30:13.832
It's kind of interesting because these platforms, they have so much trust to lose.

394
00:30:14.052 --> 00:30:20.537
If, you know, they have so much to gain from keeping the trust, but they also have so much trust to lose that if they make it like,

395
00:30:21.437 --> 00:30:29.267
if it feels icky and snake oily when you get an ad and it's embedded in the answer, like you're gonna be like, ew, right?

396
00:30:29.307 --> 00:30:30.348
Like, do I even want this?

397
00:30:30.388 --> 00:30:31.069
Do I trust it?

398
00:30:31.469 --> 00:30:36.456
Because what we see is most searchers now, they actually trust a lot of the answer they get.

399
00:30:36.996 --> 00:30:38.478
And so that's pretty cool.

400
00:30:38.923 --> 00:30:39.163
Right?

401
00:30:39.223 --> 00:30:40.023
Like that's right.

402
00:30:40.223 --> 00:30:41.604
They have to make a decision about that.

403
00:30:41.764 --> 00:30:43.304
So we'll see what happens with ads.

404
00:30:43.985 --> 00:30:45.685
The models will continue to change.

405
00:30:45.705 --> 00:30:48.026
They'll start prioritizing different channels.

406
00:30:48.566 --> 00:31:01.850
What's important, you know, like if you want a future proof is to figure out a way that you can partner with a technology provider or an agency or something who you have confidence that they have the insight into model changes.

407
00:31:02.310 --> 00:31:08.652
It's like for a brandy, we have hundreds of millions, no joke data points in our product.

408
00:31:09.867 --> 00:31:10.767
And it's excellent.

409
00:31:11.728 --> 00:31:12.068
Yeah.

410
00:31:12.088 --> 00:31:18.931
So we're able to like crunch them, like look at it, like, okay, the model changed what's different, what's different about it.

411
00:31:19.051 --> 00:31:26.214
And then we can, you know, update our product and our optimizers, and we can give insight to our customers about actions they should take that are different.

412
00:31:26.714 --> 00:31:30.075
So that's going to be crucial because things change, like you said, very quickly.

413
00:31:30.516 --> 00:31:35.718
So keeping on top of what's cool now, isn't going to be what's cool and resonates later.

414
00:31:36.098 --> 00:31:37.939
The one thing I think that will remain the same.

415
00:31:38.873 --> 00:31:48.260
Credibility, authority, brand purpose, transparency, authenticity, like everything your mother told you when you went to kindergarten for the first day.

416
00:31:48.280 --> 00:31:49.321
It's still the same.

417
00:31:49.661 --> 00:31:49.861
Yeah.

418
00:31:50.202 --> 00:31:56.907
What excites you and makes you feel concerned about in this new era of marketing?

419
00:31:57.107 --> 00:32:01.690
What excites me is that brand, mission-driven brands will succeed.

420
00:32:02.891 --> 00:32:03.732
I think that's awesome.

421
00:32:04.496 --> 00:32:09.985
think that everybody's like I said, should go to work doing stuff they actually really care about and not be trying to trick people into just giving them money.

422
00:32:10.526 --> 00:32:16.395
So the fact that AI right now, and hopefully in the future is rewarding those brands,

423
00:32:17.523 --> 00:32:18.383
I think that's awesome.

424
00:32:18.423 --> 00:32:22.924
I think that's good for humanity and I think it's good for the consumer and I think it's great.

425
00:32:22.944 --> 00:32:23.945
So that excites me.

426
00:32:24.365 --> 00:32:36.568
The other thing that excites me is that storytelling's back and that you have to actually have a unique perspective and you have to actually care about connecting with your buyers and the people that are searching.

427
00:32:37.248 --> 00:32:43.636
So, so many of us creatives and writers and stuff, we all thought we were out of a job and AI was the oogie boogie boogie man.

428
00:32:44.337 --> 00:32:48.922
If you worked in marketing, and it turns out it's not, it's actually elevating the creative.

429
00:32:49.122 --> 00:32:52.647
And that's awesome for all of us liberal arts majors out there.

430
00:32:52.667 --> 00:32:53.067
Yeah.

431
00:32:54.362 --> 00:33:07.597
I think another thing that's really exciting is that the pursuit of critical thinking as an educational skill, you know, like for so long people are like, oh, it's all about vocation and vocation is vocational education is super important.

432
00:33:08.699 --> 00:33:18.523
For those of us who like to talk about ideas and critical thinking and dissect abstraction, that's awesome.

433
00:33:18.783 --> 00:33:25.046
You're gonna have a job for a really long time because the people who write prompts, they're not just the engineers.

434
00:33:25.066 --> 00:33:33.109
Like people who can solve problems can write prompts that can just cascade impact across so many different industries.

435
00:33:33.629 --> 00:33:35.570
So the ability to think,

436
00:33:37.288 --> 00:33:38.789
back and elevated again.

437
00:33:39.149 --> 00:33:44.711
So all of that creativity, higher level thinking, classic education.

438
00:33:45.111 --> 00:33:45.431
Love it.

439
00:33:45.771 --> 00:33:46.572
I'm excited about that.

440
00:33:47.752 --> 00:33:49.673
What scares me is bias.

441
00:33:49.913 --> 00:34:01.718
Is are the AI models going to develop bias and are they going to be a closed system that, and that they're not watching that on themselves and do they care about whether it's by they have bias.

442
00:34:02.230 --> 00:34:04.212
And I think that we need to be cautious of that.

443
00:34:04.733 --> 00:34:10.038
Also, what scares me is, or not scares me, something that I guess.

444
00:34:10.839 --> 00:34:12.501
Crazed you?

445
00:34:12.541 --> 00:34:12.821
Yeah.

446
00:34:14.023 --> 00:34:15.404
Is that, I don't know.

447
00:34:15.885 --> 00:34:16.726
What was I going to say?

448
00:34:17.146 --> 00:34:17.386
Yeah.

449
00:34:17.466 --> 00:34:20.690
I mean, I guess what I'm saying is, is that bias?

450
00:34:20.870 --> 00:34:21.251
Oh yeah.

451
00:34:21.411 --> 00:34:22.172
And that also.

452
00:34:23.555 --> 00:34:27.758
If they're not mission-driven, like I said, they have all this trust to lose.

453
00:34:28.678 --> 00:34:43.567
If they only pursue monetization and commoditization of advertising without thinking about the larger impact on the stories that they're telling and how it affects the world, that sucks.

454
00:34:43.727 --> 00:34:44.588
There's concerns there.

455
00:34:45.210 --> 00:34:45.790
But we'll see.

456
00:34:46.231 --> 00:34:47.492
I'm not convinced either way yet.

457
00:34:47.792 --> 00:34:49.713
Leah, this has been truly informative.

458
00:34:49.794 --> 00:34:56.178
I really appreciate, you know, all the insights into, you know, really digging into something that a lot of us are just like, huh?

459
00:34:56.339 --> 00:35:01.142
Even for some marketers, you know, that are like CMOs that know enough to be dangerous.

460
00:35:01.202 --> 00:35:02.984
It's just, you know, this big question mark.

461
00:35:03.004 --> 00:35:04.125
And how do we navigate it?

462
00:35:04.205 --> 00:35:05.846
And, you know, how do we unfold it?

463
00:35:05.886 --> 00:35:06.967
But before I let you go.

464
00:35:07.647 --> 00:35:11.149
We have a signature ending, which is our closing rapid fire.

465
00:35:11.229 --> 00:35:14.151
And so whatever word comes to mind, just go ahead.

466
00:35:14.371 --> 00:35:16.993
One word that defines the future of brand visibility.

467
00:35:18.334 --> 00:35:18.734
Brandy.

468
00:35:18.954 --> 00:35:19.434
I get it.

469
00:35:19.454 --> 00:35:22.796
One habit every marketer should build in the AI age.

470
00:35:23.097 --> 00:35:25.638
One habit listening to customers.

471
00:35:25.898 --> 00:35:29.781
One myth about AI, SEO, or GEO that people need to stop believing.

472
00:35:30.761 --> 00:35:31.522
There are no tricks.

473
00:35:32.803 --> 00:35:33.423
Don't trick it.

474
00:35:33.543 --> 00:35:34.283
Don't try to trick.

475
00:35:34.383 --> 00:35:35.164
No tricky tricky.

476
00:35:35.904 --> 00:35:36.645
You're not going to win.

477
00:35:37.630 --> 00:35:38.631
Right.

478
00:35:38.691 --> 00:35:39.952
Tricks are not for marketers.

479
00:35:41.232 --> 00:35:41.492
Yeah.

480
00:35:42.313 --> 00:35:43.234
Leah, thank you so much.

481
00:35:43.274 --> 00:35:44.254
This has been wonderful.

482
00:35:44.314 --> 00:35:45.555
We really appreciate your time.

483
00:35:46.035 --> 00:35:46.255
Yeah.

484
00:35:46.296 --> 00:35:46.936
Thanks, Sasha.

485
00:35:46.956 --> 00:35:47.596
Thanks for having me.

486
00:35:47.616 --> 00:35:48.217
I appreciate it.