WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.276 --> 00:00:06.799 Bankless Nation, it is the third week of September. 2 00:00:06.819 --> 00:00:08.541 It is bullish once again. 3 00:00:08.981 --> 00:00:11.564 Clarity died, but all the crypto prices are higher. 4 00:00:12.185 --> 00:00:22.196 Just 21 hours later, after Clarity dies, the SEC ships the Innovation Exemption, a legal lane for tokenized stocks, effective immediately. 5 00:00:22.957 --> 00:00:24.018 So crypto lost. 6 00:00:24.995 --> 00:00:25.555 But we're winning. 7 00:00:25.655 --> 00:00:26.656 We still are winning. 8 00:00:26.716 --> 00:00:27.817 The tokens are up. 9 00:00:27.877 --> 00:00:29.278 We're getting what we wanted. 10 00:00:29.298 --> 00:00:31.819 It is a bullish season in crypto. 11 00:00:32.519 --> 00:00:38.083 It was actually double bearish news last week for crypto, and yet prices are up-ish. 12 00:00:38.523 --> 00:00:39.604 The Fed also hiked. 13 00:00:39.624 --> 00:00:44.927 This is the first time since 2022 Fed Chair Warsh moved the rates up. 14 00:00:45.767 --> 00:00:48.810 My question coming to this week was, how mad was Trump about this? 15 00:00:49.291 --> 00:00:50.091 We'll talk about that. 16 00:00:50.232 --> 00:00:54.816 Also, David, you think options might be the next big thing in DeFi? 17 00:00:55.016 --> 00:00:56.077 I want you to tell us why. 18 00:00:56.258 --> 00:00:57.239 Potentially, yes. 19 00:00:57.659 --> 00:01:01.162 And then Kraken is bringing hyperliquid to America. 20 00:01:01.923 --> 00:01:06.145 via a compliant front end for Hyperliquid onshore. 21 00:01:06.265 --> 00:01:09.746 Basically Hyperliquid with a CFTC license in front of it. 22 00:01:09.906 --> 00:01:13.228 Is this how perps make it onshore in the United States? 23 00:01:13.628 --> 00:01:15.429 That and so much more to talk about. 24 00:01:15.889 --> 00:01:19.791 But I think, Ryan, I think the way to summarize the last week in crypto 25 00:01:20.651 --> 00:01:23.234 is just very strong confirmation of a bull market. 26 00:01:23.375 --> 00:01:30.724 And the reason why is that good news is making prices go up and bad news is not mattering. 27 00:01:31.284 --> 00:01:33.587 And then we saw this in the two things we talked about. 28 00:01:33.607 --> 00:01:36.651 We had the rate hike, we had the clarity failing, 29 00:01:37.412 --> 00:01:42.976 Prices are either flat or higher than both of those events prior. 30 00:01:43.457 --> 00:01:51.523 And so this is just a telltale sign of the bull market is that we are, the market is sensitive to good news and it is insensitive to bad news. 31 00:01:52.124 --> 00:01:57.468 And I think that that is just even further confirmation that we are in the earliest innings of a bull market. 32 00:01:57.888 --> 00:02:00.970 Well, Eric Conner, crypto investor, agrees with you, David. 33 00:02:01.010 --> 00:02:01.770 This was his tweet. 34 00:02:01.850 --> 00:02:07.773 Kind of nice to flush the double bad news of no clarity and rate hike in the same day, to be honest. 35 00:02:08.474 --> 00:02:10.955 Yeah, I think I see that, especially clarity. 36 00:02:10.995 --> 00:02:13.456 Although one might argue to push on that a little bit. 37 00:02:13.896 --> 00:02:15.837 Both were kind of priced in. 38 00:02:15.857 --> 00:02:19.159 I mean, who in crypto actually thought clarity would pass? 39 00:02:19.499 --> 00:02:20.480 And then as to rate hikes. 40 00:02:20.500 --> 00:02:20.620 Yeah. 41 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:27.642 I mean, the market was expecting rate hikes to actually increase. 42 00:02:28.082 --> 00:02:30.563 And so maybe no surprise there. 43 00:02:30.583 --> 00:02:35.925 It's not like QQQ or S&P took a nosedive on the back of this news. 44 00:02:36.885 --> 00:02:47.253 There is a price band that TDR, Michael Nadeau, is watching for confirmation of the early bull market. 45 00:02:47.894 --> 00:02:49.035 And he's got two numbers here. 46 00:02:49.715 --> 00:02:57.861 Basically, if we stay trading in these two numbers, he feels like we are pretty close to confirming the crypto bull market. 47 00:02:57.881 --> 00:02:59.323 And this is Bitcoin price numbers. 48 00:02:59.823 --> 00:03:02.205 So the number, you don't like this, David, 69.9K. 49 00:03:02.345 --> 00:03:02.725 All right. 50 00:03:02.805 --> 00:03:03.065 Nice. 51 00:03:03.125 --> 00:03:03.486 Yeah. 52 00:03:05.828 --> 00:03:15.115 So if we stay from 69.9K to 80.4K, we stay in that band, we should be good to go. 53 00:03:15.455 --> 00:03:17.517 Both those numbers represent moving averages. 54 00:03:17.617 --> 00:03:20.319 So 69.9K, that's the 200-day moving average. 55 00:03:20.900 --> 00:03:23.502 And the 80K number, that's the 50-week. 56 00:03:23.862 --> 00:03:24.783 We stay in that band. 57 00:03:24.803 --> 00:03:25.904 We're still undecided. 58 00:03:26.084 --> 00:03:27.805 It's not breaking bearish. 59 00:03:27.945 --> 00:03:30.748 If we go up higher and we start 60 00:03:31.900 --> 00:03:44.359 breaking the 50-week in a decisive direction, and we sustain that over multiple weeks, he thinks from a price momentum perspective, that's kind of early bull market confirmed. 61 00:03:44.379 --> 00:03:46.922 So we're in this middle period of like, we don't know yet. 62 00:03:48.025 --> 00:03:48.605 Oh, interesting. 63 00:03:48.685 --> 00:03:48.885 Okay. 64 00:03:48.905 --> 00:03:54.907 So he is saying that so long as we don't go down, we are allowed to be bullish. 65 00:03:55.087 --> 00:04:02.530 And then he's waiting and patiently waiting for us to break through $80,400 on Bitcoin to confirm a bull market. 66 00:04:02.770 --> 00:04:05.431 But he's saying that like, if we hold, it's still bullish? 67 00:04:06.371 --> 00:04:16.863 He's saying if we hold and we don't break down, then the probability points that the low was in on June 30th of this year. 68 00:04:16.883 --> 00:04:17.003 I see. 69 00:04:17.023 --> 00:04:18.585 And we're not going to lower lows. 70 00:04:19.265 --> 00:04:19.425 I see. 71 00:04:19.466 --> 00:04:19.586 I see. 72 00:04:20.270 --> 00:04:26.294 I did invite Ben Cowan on the podcast for when he gets back from New Zealand because I want to ask him this exact same question. 73 00:04:26.314 --> 00:04:28.836 It's like we bounced off the 200 week. 74 00:04:29.137 --> 00:04:30.197 Bitcoin bounced off the 200 week. 75 00:04:30.297 --> 00:04:31.558 It does that all the time in bear markets. 76 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:33.520 Sometimes it does it twice. 77 00:04:34.200 --> 00:04:39.544 And if it does it a second time, that means we are going down to the high 60s, I believe. 78 00:04:39.564 --> 00:04:48.150 65,000, 66,000, which I think at least the participants on crypto Twitter are not positioned for that move. 79 00:04:49.131 --> 00:04:53.616 One thing you observed to me is that blue chips on the week, they were somewhat flats. 80 00:04:53.656 --> 00:04:56.960 They're not down on this double dose of bad news. 81 00:04:57.661 --> 00:05:05.089 But actually, we've had some non-blue chip coins massively outperform lately, particularly on the week. 82 00:05:05.109 --> 00:05:06.891 So Zcash, all-time highs. 83 00:05:07.072 --> 00:05:07.772 Am I correct in that? 84 00:05:08.597 --> 00:05:15.823 Yeah, Zcash all-time highest broke $1,500, and it was just $1,200 last week. 85 00:05:16.003 --> 00:05:19.366 So the momentum behind Zcash is just absolutely astounding. 86 00:05:19.406 --> 00:05:22.008 And was this like absolutely, there's like no reason why? 87 00:05:22.108 --> 00:05:25.271 Was there something about the clarity vote that was bullish Zcash? 88 00:05:25.671 --> 00:05:27.313 No clarity vote. 89 00:05:27.333 --> 00:05:28.514 We're going to buy Zcash. 90 00:05:29.686 --> 00:05:30.807 There's two different takes. 91 00:05:30.847 --> 00:05:37.172 My initial first reaction was that this is Zcash moving higher on no news whatsoever. 92 00:05:37.392 --> 00:05:38.794 It's just momentum. 93 00:05:39.074 --> 00:05:43.558 Like Zcash earned momentum because it's an insurance on Bitcoin. 94 00:05:43.618 --> 00:05:47.361 Like the fundamental reasons why you would buy Zcash. 95 00:05:47.521 --> 00:05:49.543 You know, it's an insurance on privacy on Bitcoin. 96 00:05:49.563 --> 00:05:50.724 Like Naval likes it. 97 00:05:51.124 --> 00:05:52.005 Like all this kind of stuff. 98 00:05:52.685 --> 00:06:01.052 Then there's another take, which is that actually the crypto market participants are doing the normal thing of like the Fed hike was actually bullish. 99 00:06:01.112 --> 00:06:02.312 It's actually good for crypto. 100 00:06:03.133 --> 00:06:08.277 And Zcash is the way that the crypto market is expressing that trade because it's a faster horse than Bitcoin. 101 00:06:08.317 --> 00:06:14.382 So one, if you are particularly bullish on Zcash, you would say that Zcash is actually stealing Bitcoin's thunder. 102 00:06:14.402 --> 00:06:14.802 Yeah. 103 00:06:15.770 --> 00:06:23.813 This is a bit abnormal behavior because Bitcoin is supposed to go first and then altcoins follow in most early bull phases. 104 00:06:24.013 --> 00:06:32.575 And the fact that Zcash outperformed during the bear market and continues to outperform is somewhat abnormal from previous cycles that we've seen. 105 00:06:32.695 --> 00:06:33.736 It's not the only one, right? 106 00:06:34.136 --> 00:06:37.937 I think Hyperliquid, you mentioned, hit all-time highs near as at $3. 107 00:06:37.997 --> 00:06:39.577 I'm not sure if that's an all-time high yet. 108 00:06:39.978 --> 00:06:40.678 That's doing well, too. 109 00:06:40.698 --> 00:06:40.878 No, no. 110 00:06:41.558 --> 00:06:48.329 Nier has been around for forever, so they have the 2021 God candles that they have to recover, which was like $30. 111 00:06:49.631 --> 00:06:49.831 2021. 112 00:06:49.871 --> 00:06:52.114 Those times. 113 00:06:52.175 --> 00:06:55.480 Those times of rational bull market behavior in crypto, right? 114 00:06:56.175 --> 00:07:00.756 Yeah, but as far as near goes, like $3 is the highest it's seen in quite a while. 115 00:07:00.796 --> 00:07:02.137 And it's had like a lot of momentum. 116 00:07:02.157 --> 00:07:04.817 I think like last week or two weeks ago, it was at $2. 117 00:07:05.418 --> 00:07:09.879 And so you probably remember me six months ago, 12 months ago. 118 00:07:09.899 --> 00:07:14.220 I would just talk about like the middle of the market is drying out. 119 00:07:14.380 --> 00:07:17.241 We have meme coins and the blue chip barbells. 120 00:07:17.281 --> 00:07:18.561 Blue chips are doing well. 121 00:07:18.781 --> 00:07:19.822 Meme coins are doing well. 122 00:07:19.842 --> 00:07:20.942 But the middle of the market is... 123 00:07:21.242 --> 00:07:22.803 which is people's jobs. 124 00:07:23.224 --> 00:07:24.204 That's the startups. 125 00:07:24.505 --> 00:07:26.426 That's people doing BD efforts. 126 00:07:26.486 --> 00:07:28.308 That has just been drying up. 127 00:07:29.068 --> 00:07:34.612 It seems to be that this is, we are having a middle of the market recovery in this era of crypto. 128 00:07:34.913 --> 00:07:44.720 Not globally, like not every middle of the market token, but the tokens that have deserved to do well are like living under their own weight, are growing, are doing well. 129 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:49.764 So it is really nice and optimistic to see the middle of the market recover. 130 00:07:49.784 --> 00:07:49.984 Yeah. 131 00:07:50.224 --> 00:07:54.495 NIR specifically is just seeing adoption of their confidential intense products. 132 00:07:54.535 --> 00:07:59.046 So $30 billion crossed by NIR in their confidential intense, which is 133 00:07:59.952 --> 00:08:04.576 I kind of put it shoulder to shoulder with Zcash in the privacy angle of things. 134 00:08:04.596 --> 00:08:10.680 Like this is $30 billion of confidential private cross-chain transactions facilitated by Near. 135 00:08:11.081 --> 00:08:14.864 And they also have $70 million in Near TVL. 136 00:08:14.884 --> 00:08:20.648 So these are the numbers that like Near has pushed recently that are doing well, that show adoption. 137 00:08:21.168 --> 00:08:25.532 And it's also along in like the whole privacy trade, privacy tailwinds. 138 00:08:25.832 --> 00:08:32.335 Yeah, the pivot to privacy and the pivot to perps has been a major theme during this bear market. 139 00:08:32.636 --> 00:08:37.698 And I guess it's worth maybe doubling down on the winners for the bull market. 140 00:08:37.738 --> 00:08:40.260 At least that's what investors seem to think on this week. 141 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:45.182 Speaking of doubling down, not one to ever not double down is Tom Lee. 142 00:08:45.782 --> 00:08:50.105 And he had some predictions for trad markets for the S&P 500. 143 00:08:50.185 --> 00:08:51.445 Let's hear what he has to say. 144 00:08:52.026 --> 00:08:53.627 Yeah, I think post midterms, 145 00:08:55.005 --> 00:09:05.668 Because this year has been very challenging, and I know it's not been fun for a lot of viewers, I think the fourth quarter could be one of the biggest rallies, and I think it continues to next year to one of the biggest rallies of our lifetime. 146 00:09:05.728 --> 00:09:07.609 What's a real number, do you think? 147 00:09:07.869 --> 00:09:12.170 We're at 75-85 on the S&P as we have this conversation. 148 00:09:13.130 --> 00:09:14.430 there's not that much of the year left. 149 00:09:15.111 --> 00:09:17.771 What seems reasonable to you between now and then? 150 00:09:18.231 --> 00:09:21.932 I think we could easily be above 8,200 by the end of the year. 151 00:09:22.112 --> 00:09:24.873 And that's because tech is going to be doing a lot of heavy lifting. 152 00:09:24.893 --> 00:09:28.214 The MAG-7, as you mentioned earlier today, are starting to come back to life. 153 00:09:28.874 --> 00:09:31.975 And the software names, which have been important names to be held, are doing better. 154 00:09:32.615 --> 00:09:37.876 So as long as the AI trade isn't extinguished, which we don't expect, I think it's going to come out of this correction. 155 00:09:38.376 --> 00:09:39.776 We've got a big rally into your end. 156 00:09:43.217 --> 00:09:46.180 the biggest rallies of our lifetime, in a quote. 157 00:09:46.800 --> 00:09:48.101 I wouldn't feel great about it. 158 00:09:48.262 --> 00:09:50.984 I'd feel like, but like, it's just the way he says it. 159 00:09:51.204 --> 00:09:53.986 Tom Lee has this like calm demeanor. 160 00:09:54.086 --> 00:09:58.190 And when he says bullish stuff, I'm just like, oh yeah, I could see that, Tom. 161 00:09:58.630 --> 00:09:59.511 Sounds like that could happen. 162 00:09:59.851 --> 00:10:01.392 It's something about the tone of his voice. 163 00:10:01.432 --> 00:10:03.234 Maybe he's not like emotionally invested. 164 00:10:04.675 --> 00:10:07.738 My parasympathetic nervous system just loves Tom Lee. 165 00:10:09.923 --> 00:10:16.035 It was like Tom Lee is just like reaching around my portfolio and just giving it the most comforting hug. 166 00:10:16.055 --> 00:10:18.280 I was like, hey, man, that's a great seat. 167 00:10:18.300 --> 00:10:20.124 $8,200 by the end of the year. 168 00:10:22.682 --> 00:10:23.923 Well, thanks for the hug, Tom. 169 00:10:24.123 --> 00:10:27.324 Maybe Tom could go hug the bond market, okay? 170 00:10:27.364 --> 00:10:32.707 Because yields are going up, whereas Besant, of course, he's been a war on bonds. 171 00:10:33.147 --> 00:10:35.168 He wants yields to go down. 172 00:10:35.188 --> 00:10:36.769 This is the tweet. 173 00:10:37.049 --> 00:10:40.251 The U.S. 10-year treasury yield breaks 5%. 174 00:10:40.411 --> 00:10:43.012 First time it's done that in a while. 175 00:10:43.032 --> 00:10:46.394 I mean, not in forever, to be fair, but in a while. 176 00:10:46.434 --> 00:10:47.314 And it keeps ratcheting up. 177 00:10:47.334 --> 00:10:48.295 Like mile-hour lifetimes. 178 00:10:48.455 --> 00:10:49.556 No, no, not the 10-year. 179 00:10:49.616 --> 00:10:51.857 The 10-year was like just a few years ago. 180 00:10:51.897 --> 00:10:52.838 Here's a chart of the 10-year. 181 00:10:55.219 --> 00:10:58.181 Well, no, this is- 2008, 2007. 182 00:10:58.421 --> 00:10:59.121 Okay, yeah. 183 00:10:59.722 --> 00:11:00.382 It's been a while. 184 00:11:00.682 --> 00:11:02.383 I was playing Runescape back then. 185 00:11:02.403 --> 00:11:04.124 I was not paying attention to broad markets. 186 00:11:04.144 --> 00:11:05.585 This is really the 10-year? 187 00:11:05.645 --> 00:11:10.808 Okay, and the 30-year as well, a little down on the week. 188 00:11:10.828 --> 00:11:11.169 5.4% it touched. 189 00:11:11.189 --> 00:11:12.649 Yeah, it touched 5.4%. 190 00:11:12.709 --> 00:11:14.030 Yeah, it's got more high though. 191 00:11:14.270 --> 00:11:16.532 It's been trending up in a very dangerous way. 192 00:11:17.230 --> 00:11:34.867 So, you know, the scoreboard, I guess, this week is, I don't know if Besant won or Bonds won, but it feels like Bonds are continuing to win, whereas Besant is, you know, he did $6 billion last week in buying the long end there and not really quelling bond market yields at all. 193 00:11:35.628 --> 00:11:39.889 Yeah, I think for a moment, people were like, no, Scott Besson, he's the house. 194 00:11:39.969 --> 00:11:41.010 Here's the money printer. 195 00:11:41.070 --> 00:11:42.610 Well, he said he was the house. 196 00:11:42.790 --> 00:11:43.891 He said he was the house. 197 00:11:43.911 --> 00:11:46.611 And then people realized, oh, this guy is tiny. 198 00:11:46.831 --> 00:11:50.413 He's a tiny man going up against the gargantuan barn market. 199 00:11:50.473 --> 00:11:51.533 He's not the house. 200 00:11:52.544 --> 00:11:52.824 I don't know. 201 00:11:52.844 --> 00:11:53.465 He's kind of the house. 202 00:11:53.765 --> 00:11:54.205 He does. 203 00:11:54.225 --> 00:11:55.686 He is kind of the house. 204 00:11:55.746 --> 00:11:57.587 He could be the house if he wanted to be the house. 205 00:11:57.607 --> 00:11:58.448 The market is the house. 206 00:11:58.528 --> 00:12:02.451 No, not if he's like trickling in $4 billion. 207 00:12:02.511 --> 00:12:07.174 He needs to like 100x that to actually have durable impacts on the market. 208 00:12:07.194 --> 00:12:07.834 He might do it, David. 209 00:12:07.854 --> 00:12:08.414 You never know. 210 00:12:08.454 --> 00:12:09.075 He could do it. 211 00:12:09.175 --> 00:12:09.435 Okay. 212 00:12:09.735 --> 00:12:12.057 If he does that, then the debasement trade. 213 00:12:12.097 --> 00:12:14.318 My God, Bitcoin will be $2 million. 214 00:12:14.338 --> 00:12:14.518 Ha ha. 215 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:16.639 He's threatening to do it. 216 00:12:16.660 --> 00:12:32.806 I think there's a question that I've had every week of this bond market war is, is this more debasement or is this more just a hot economy and cost of capital going up because of investment in infrastructure and AI data centers and all of these things? 217 00:12:33.706 --> 00:12:36.469 And I'm not sure I'm fully resolved on that. 218 00:12:36.910 --> 00:12:40.714 Of course, the debasement narrative has been pretty hot the past four to five weeks. 219 00:12:40.754 --> 00:12:43.817 And they've seen, obviously, crypto had that repricing event. 220 00:12:44.258 --> 00:12:47.401 Gold was up a bit and people were like, ah, it's debasement once again. 221 00:12:47.941 --> 00:12:52.727 But I'm not sure that's the real reason for the yield rising. 222 00:12:53.087 --> 00:12:55.049 I think the real reason might just be 223 00:12:56.090 --> 00:13:00.231 back to the 1980s, we are in a hot economy. 224 00:13:00.952 --> 00:13:03.772 GDP is humming, at least from a nominal perspective. 225 00:13:03.892 --> 00:13:06.293 Yes, inflation is still high. 226 00:13:06.673 --> 00:13:07.974 We'll talk more about that in a second. 227 00:13:08.474 --> 00:13:12.575 But the economy's doing pretty well, at least in the US as well. 228 00:13:13.155 --> 00:13:18.437 And I don't think people are used to that type of investing environment, right? 229 00:13:18.457 --> 00:13:24.679 Because they haven't seen it in their investing career very often and certainly not within the last 15 years. 230 00:13:25.894 --> 00:13:29.555 I'm trying to get a grasp on, is it all of the economy? 231 00:13:29.615 --> 00:13:32.396 Is it like all of America is doing well? 232 00:13:32.836 --> 00:13:36.918 Or is it just like the capitalist side, like investment is doing well? 233 00:13:36.958 --> 00:13:41.059 If you're an investor, you are trying to get your hands on capital to invest it. 234 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:43.660 Maybe that's trickling down to Main Street. 235 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:47.241 But is like globally all U.S. citizens doing well? 236 00:13:47.261 --> 00:13:49.502 Because inflation is also still hot. 237 00:13:49.522 --> 00:13:54.524 And so we have a hot economy and hot inflation and a hot bond market. 238 00:13:55.764 --> 00:13:59.286 All of these things, I don't know how to interpret all three of these things like coming together. 239 00:13:59.346 --> 00:14:06.650 This is why, by the way, David, I think you should have Michael Howell on the podcast on the main feed because he has takes on all of these things. 240 00:14:06.750 --> 00:14:18.537 And largely he does think that what he calls Treasury QE, the regime we're entering, is going to be more bullish for Main Street than it will be for Wall Street asset prices. 241 00:14:19.237 --> 00:14:28.468 Okay, so he sees a real shift towards the real economy and Main Street with the shift from Fed QE to Treasury QE. 242 00:14:28.749 --> 00:14:32.333 And I think you should get him to explain why to the bankless audience. 243 00:14:32.393 --> 00:14:35.257 He's got lots of reasons for it and interesting takes. 244 00:14:36.126 --> 00:14:37.726 I'm not used to the Main Street winning. 245 00:14:38.126 --> 00:14:41.007 Usually always Main Street gets the short end of the stick. 246 00:14:42.127 --> 00:14:45.608 Can good things happen because of downstream of the stock market? 247 00:14:45.988 --> 00:14:49.269 Yeah, that is still a question in this era. 248 00:14:49.309 --> 00:14:50.869 So it's an unresolved question. 249 00:14:52.310 --> 00:14:54.330 The Fed funds rate also went up. 250 00:14:54.370 --> 00:14:56.470 This is for the first time since 2023. 251 00:14:56.510 --> 00:14:56.931 So Warsh... 252 00:14:59.231 --> 00:15:06.635 We thought, David, we were speculating that the new Fed chair Trump appointed would be, I think in your words, Cuddy McCutface. 253 00:15:07.255 --> 00:15:09.517 Well, he is not Cuddy McCutface, OK? 254 00:15:10.057 --> 00:15:14.559 He was Cuddy McCutface while he was presenting to Donald Trump. 255 00:15:14.599 --> 00:15:16.460 He was presenting as Cuddy McCutface. 256 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:17.021 Oh, wait, wait, wait. 257 00:15:17.061 --> 00:15:17.841 Did he trick Trump? 258 00:15:17.861 --> 00:15:18.942 Was this a bait and switch? 259 00:15:19.222 --> 00:15:19.582 Yeah. 260 00:15:20.512 --> 00:15:25.959 Well, the thought is that he did not want to explicitly bait and switch Trump. 261 00:15:25.979 --> 00:15:35.950 So he did the thing by removing forward guidance and not having all the Fed governors fall in line so that there could be a diffuse set of people who think that we should cut, think we should hold. 262 00:15:36.331 --> 00:15:37.853 So he's passed on the buck. 263 00:15:38.313 --> 00:15:39.474 So it's like, don't look at me. 264 00:15:39.714 --> 00:15:41.336 I'm just one of the Fed governors. 265 00:15:41.536 --> 00:15:43.298 Also, we're a democratic institution. 266 00:15:43.758 --> 00:15:48.703 It's a decentralizing of the Fed while Donald Trump comes in and demands Cuddy McCutface. 267 00:15:49.084 --> 00:15:53.368 You know what's hilarious is Trump might be buying that, actually. 268 00:15:53.748 --> 00:15:56.489 the narrative that you just spun up, he might be buying it. 269 00:15:56.549 --> 00:16:00.231 So I should say the target rate is now 3.75% to 4%. 270 00:16:00.251 --> 00:16:07.734 And it was a open FOMC committee vote, of course. 271 00:16:07.754 --> 00:16:08.874 That's who decides these things. 272 00:16:09.355 --> 00:16:10.055 12 to zero. 273 00:16:10.475 --> 00:16:13.076 Wasn't even one dissenter in order to raise rates. 274 00:16:13.096 --> 00:16:14.377 So 12 to zero. 275 00:16:14.857 --> 00:16:18.678 And yeah, I was kind of expecting Trump to just be like, I was tricked. 276 00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:20.579 It's the new Powell, Warsh. 277 00:16:20.819 --> 00:16:22.000 Like, you know, 278 00:16:23.020 --> 00:16:24.021 Bring those rates down. 279 00:16:24.221 --> 00:16:24.842 What are you doing? 280 00:16:25.302 --> 00:16:26.604 But Trump kind of covered for him. 281 00:16:26.764 --> 00:16:29.286 He was like, yeah, the vote does even matter. 282 00:16:29.687 --> 00:16:31.969 It's a 12 person, you know, vote. 283 00:16:32.369 --> 00:16:34.351 So Warsh may as well have voted. 284 00:16:35.252 --> 00:16:38.275 He does think, though, he said this on Truth Social, I believe. 285 00:16:39.136 --> 00:16:39.737 What's the quote? 286 00:16:40.177 --> 00:16:43.279 You might as well vote with the board because it's not going to matter. 287 00:16:43.400 --> 00:16:44.841 The board is very hostile. 288 00:16:44.881 --> 00:16:46.582 He's talking about the FOMC board. 289 00:16:46.922 --> 00:16:53.487 But he did say interest rates in the U.S. should be 1% or less because we are the best credit in the world by far. 290 00:16:54.088 --> 00:16:59.452 So I guess he still thinks that, but he seemed fine with worth raising rates. 291 00:17:00.512 --> 00:17:02.294 Should we screen him out? 292 00:17:02.354 --> 00:17:03.555 Is this just noise from Trump? 293 00:17:04.912 --> 00:17:05.433 I don't know. 294 00:17:05.473 --> 00:17:10.196 There was a prediction market about whether Trump would call Kevin Warsh a name, like a bad name. 295 00:17:10.977 --> 00:17:17.461 And like, use that, you know, on truth social, Trump throws Kevin Warsh under the bus like he did with Fed chair Jerome Powell. 296 00:17:17.821 --> 00:17:18.282 He did not. 297 00:17:18.602 --> 00:17:20.543 He did not call Kevin Warsh a bad name. 298 00:17:21.244 --> 00:17:21.464 Wow. 299 00:17:21.884 --> 00:17:22.564 What explains this? 300 00:17:22.585 --> 00:17:25.627 I have no idea. 301 00:17:28.390 --> 00:17:34.356 I wonder if Trump can actually rationalize why it no longer matters if Warsh is making the decision. 302 00:17:34.616 --> 00:17:35.197 This is Warsh. 303 00:17:35.217 --> 00:17:39.981 Maybe because like Warsh and Trump and Scott Besson are taking meetings. 304 00:17:40.422 --> 00:17:41.182 Yeah. 305 00:17:41.323 --> 00:17:44.606 They are talking to each other seemingly collaboratively. 306 00:17:44.766 --> 00:17:50.371 And so maybe Warsh isn't like bending the knee, but it seems to be that they are up to something. 307 00:17:51.292 --> 00:17:58.797 So you think maybe there's a bit of coordination behind the scenes where Besson's like, yeah, you know, Warsh has got to do this, Trump. 308 00:17:58.857 --> 00:17:59.718 We got it covered. 309 00:17:59.758 --> 00:18:01.119 We're all kind of synchronized. 310 00:18:01.139 --> 00:18:03.620 Whereas Powell was a bit more independent. 311 00:18:03.820 --> 00:18:07.743 Because, yeah, that's one interpretation of things that they're all kind of coordinating. 312 00:18:07.763 --> 00:18:08.844 That's why Trump is fine with it. 313 00:18:09.244 --> 00:18:13.327 Another interpretation is just if you just kind of read the letter of what's happening. 314 00:18:13.727 --> 00:18:15.488 Oh, no, this is Haseeb's take. 315 00:18:15.788 --> 00:18:17.710 This proves Fed independence. 316 00:18:18.110 --> 00:18:21.292 They're not just going to do whatever the president says. 317 00:18:21.372 --> 00:18:27.196 This proves that the Fed and FOMC works because it's not going to bend to the politics of the day. 318 00:18:27.717 --> 00:18:32.660 It's going to optimize for its own goals. 319 00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:33.901 So you could interpret it that way, too. 320 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:35.060 Yeah. 321 00:18:35.641 --> 00:18:36.122 Yeah. 322 00:18:36.262 --> 00:18:41.049 If we're going back to the conversation of like, is this a hot economy or is this a debasement trade? 323 00:18:41.169 --> 00:18:47.618 You have to take the bit of evidence out that this is a corrupt Fed out of the debasement trade. 324 00:18:48.339 --> 00:18:50.022 The Fed is legitimate. 325 00:18:50.462 --> 00:18:56.669 It's not bending to the fiscal policy of Congress and what the president wants is remaining sovereign. 326 00:18:57.010 --> 00:19:00.353 And that it should be good for the soundness of the dollar. 327 00:19:00.774 --> 00:19:06.881 And so if you take that variable out of the wire bonds going up, you would it would actually point further to it's a hot economy. 328 00:19:07.361 --> 00:19:15.389 Well, it does lend evidence to the fact that the Fed is serious about fighting inflation because this is totally the reason Warsh said he was doing it. 329 00:19:15.829 --> 00:19:27.780 He said that this was a sober decision, a serious decision, a responsible decision, and that the plain fact is that inflation is too high and has been for too long. 330 00:19:28.421 --> 00:19:30.722 So this is the U.S. fighting inflation. 331 00:19:31.262 --> 00:19:32.783 Now, what do you think? 332 00:19:32.963 --> 00:19:36.324 Is this good or bad for crypto? 333 00:19:36.505 --> 00:19:44.088 I think in previous eras, whenever kind of the generic investor take is, if Fed funds rate is going up, 334 00:19:44.668 --> 00:19:47.970 that bleeds risk on capital out of markets. 335 00:19:48.030 --> 00:19:50.332 And so risk on assets go down. 336 00:19:51.012 --> 00:19:58.797 And yeah, crypto is somewhat of a debasement trade, partially, but it's also a risk on asset class as well. 337 00:19:59.457 --> 00:20:03.600 And so risk on goes down if Fed fund rate is going up. 338 00:20:04.780 --> 00:20:07.362 Do you think that simple explanation is valid moving forward? 339 00:20:08.602 --> 00:20:18.667 I mean, if we go back to the fundamental, like, simple bull case for Bitcoin, it's that we print more money than we take in as revenue. 340 00:20:18.687 --> 00:20:20.248 So, like, there's always debasement. 341 00:20:20.268 --> 00:20:21.569 There's always inflation. 342 00:20:22.389 --> 00:20:28.933 And if you cut yields to zero, then people move just down the risk spectrum because there's more capital out there. 343 00:20:29.353 --> 00:20:32.475 But if you raise rates, then the government can't pay its debts. 344 00:20:32.775 --> 00:20:33.996 And so there's going to be debasement. 345 00:20:34.016 --> 00:20:35.877 So, like, Bitcoin wins either way. 346 00:20:36.737 --> 00:20:40.284 And so if he asks a question, it's like, okay, we raise rates. 347 00:20:40.344 --> 00:20:41.806 Is this bullish or bearish for Bitcoin? 348 00:20:41.866 --> 00:20:44.952 You know, to your point, it makes risk capital harder to access. 349 00:20:45.032 --> 00:20:47.837 But the government's debt comes due faster. 350 00:20:49.125 --> 00:20:49.806 I don't really know. 351 00:20:49.926 --> 00:20:50.947 I'm not sure I care. 352 00:20:51.147 --> 00:20:53.470 All I know is that we raised rates and crypto prices went up. 353 00:20:53.830 --> 00:20:58.074 And so I've been saying this on Twitter, I'll say it here again. 354 00:20:58.715 --> 00:21:01.177 Good news is good and bad news doesn't matter. 355 00:21:01.358 --> 00:21:03.200 That's just the phase of the market that we're in. 356 00:21:03.620 --> 00:21:07.224 Well, we are in the heads I win, tails you lose regime, I guess. 357 00:21:07.744 --> 00:21:08.145 David. 358 00:21:08.645 --> 00:21:11.908 Speaking of losing, we got to talk about the Clarity Act next. 359 00:21:11.968 --> 00:21:15.851 So it failed, but before it failed, it seemed like some good news. 360 00:21:16.371 --> 00:21:17.112 What happened there? 361 00:21:17.412 --> 00:21:24.577 And I know you've had some conversations with representatives at the SEC about, what is it? 362 00:21:24.657 --> 00:21:25.698 Did they drop some? 363 00:21:25.718 --> 00:21:28.260 Innovation exemption that was dropped this morning. 364 00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:30.302 The innovation exemption. 365 00:21:30.322 --> 00:21:34.465 So I'm wondering, does Paul Atkins love crypto more than Gary Gensler hated it? 366 00:21:34.885 --> 00:21:35.586 What's he going to give us? 367 00:21:35.606 --> 00:21:36.206 What are the goodies? 368 00:21:36.226 --> 00:21:37.287 We'll talk about all that and more. 369 00:21:37.327 --> 00:21:40.750 But before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible. 370 00:21:58.306 --> 00:21:59.287 And I've never really found it. 371 00:21:59.307 --> 00:22:03.330 And I'm just always switching wallets, juggling gas fees, or getting eaten by slippage. 372 00:22:03.510 --> 00:22:06.332 But near.com feels fundamentally different to me. 373 00:22:06.412 --> 00:22:10.755 I can do anything I want from any chain and keep all of my activity confidential. 374 00:22:10.855 --> 00:22:12.977 Crypto, tokenized assets, perps, payments. 375 00:22:13.157 --> 00:22:15.239 I can even earn yield confidentially. 376 00:22:15.419 --> 00:22:18.521 One account, over 30 chains, confidential by default. 377 00:22:18.641 --> 00:22:20.403 It's the way that crypto ought to work. 378 00:22:20.543 --> 00:22:26.067 And it's powered by Near, which has moved over $30 billion cross-chain, uses post-quantum signatures, 379 00:22:26.207 --> 00:22:28.908 And that's run over five years on mainnet with zero downtime. 380 00:22:29.088 --> 00:22:32.388 Near.com is the best way to be on chain and be in control. 381 00:22:32.608 --> 00:22:37.930 Get 20% of your trading fees back on near.com using the bankless link in the show notes, not investment advice. 382 00:22:38.110 --> 00:22:39.730 Bankless Nation, we've built something for you. 383 00:22:39.890 --> 00:22:41.670 Introducing the Bankless MCP. 384 00:22:41.790 --> 00:22:52.773 ChatGPT and Claude are great at a lot of things, but ask them anything beyond the basics of crypto about protocol mechanics, tokenomics, or just what happened last week in crypto, and the gaps will start to show. 385 00:22:52.873 --> 00:22:53.813 The problem is context. 386 00:22:54.013 --> 00:22:58.940 Bankless, on the other hand, has spent almost a decade building one of the deepest archives of crypto data anywhere. 387 00:22:59.080 --> 00:23:05.310 More than 2,000 podcast transcripts, 10,000 articles, and countless conversations with the people actually building this industry. 388 00:23:05.510 --> 00:23:08.695 And now we've structured all of that data into the Bankless MCP. 389 00:23:08.995 --> 00:23:09.195 Thank you. 390 00:23:31.775 --> 00:23:35.958 your crypto queries to your AI, LLM, whatever you use, will get a thousand times better. 391 00:23:36.098 --> 00:23:36.759 So go check it out. 392 00:23:36.859 --> 00:23:38.039 There is a link in the show notes. 393 00:23:38.099 --> 00:23:42.282 And once you become a Bankless Premium member, you can hop into the Bankless Discord and let me know how you like it. 394 00:23:42.703 --> 00:23:42.983 Cheers. 395 00:23:43.263 --> 00:23:50.188 So early this week, it was announced that Trump actually agreed to the updated Clarity Act Ethics Provision. 396 00:23:50.328 --> 00:23:54.931 which was considered to be the final obstacle to getting the Clarity Act passed. 397 00:23:54.971 --> 00:23:55.791 This was a surprise. 398 00:23:56.212 --> 00:23:57.713 Everyone on Twitter got really excited. 399 00:23:58.253 --> 00:24:01.355 Odds of the Clarity Act passing on Polymarket doubled. 400 00:24:01.915 --> 00:24:03.936 Bitcoin jumped from 77 to 79. 401 00:24:04.076 --> 00:24:06.578 ETH jumped from 2,400 to 2,500. 402 00:24:06.918 --> 00:24:08.259 Things were looking pretty good. 403 00:24:08.299 --> 00:24:11.441 We were thinking about getting a surprise Clarity Act. 404 00:24:11.841 --> 00:24:19.646 Then the Senate procedural vote came on Tuesday, and it seemed that the compromises from Trump and the Republicans were just not enough for 405 00:24:19.966 --> 00:24:22.428 All Democrats voted no to the procedural vote. 406 00:24:22.448 --> 00:24:26.912 The final tally fell 11 votes short of the supermajority needed to proceed. 407 00:24:27.413 --> 00:24:33.158 Okay, so why did all the Democrats vote no if Trump relented on the ethics thing? 408 00:24:33.218 --> 00:24:34.559 I thought that's what they said they needed. 409 00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:37.882 Give us ethics provisions and we'll vote yes. 410 00:24:39.763 --> 00:24:44.605 I think that the Democrats feel like they're in a very strong position to win the midterms. 411 00:24:44.965 --> 00:24:47.126 And so they don't need to compromise. 412 00:24:47.666 --> 00:24:52.387 And the Clarity Act passing is a Republican win, no matter what. 413 00:24:52.727 --> 00:24:55.248 Like, it's not a it's not a bipartisan win. 414 00:24:55.428 --> 00:24:57.729 It is a partisan win for the Republicans. 415 00:24:58.309 --> 00:25:00.390 And so like why the Democrats? 416 00:25:00.570 --> 00:25:01.310 Why give them a win? 417 00:25:01.930 --> 00:25:03.431 Why give them a win at all? 418 00:25:03.551 --> 00:25:04.431 It's not their bill. 419 00:25:04.512 --> 00:25:05.652 It's not their constituents. 420 00:25:05.832 --> 00:25:06.573 They don't care. 421 00:25:06.913 --> 00:25:09.354 And they're just going to wait this one out until they control the House. 422 00:25:09.574 --> 00:25:10.915 And so they're just not motivated. 423 00:25:10.995 --> 00:25:13.456 There's no carrot for them to vote. 424 00:25:13.837 --> 00:25:21.861 Also, I think a lot of the provisions here and the specifics of the ethics provisions was Trump agreeing to things on a go forward basis. 425 00:25:22.401 --> 00:25:29.525 So the deal didn't really touch the $1.4 billion of all of the Trump family crypto dealings in the past. 426 00:25:30.365 --> 00:25:33.747 You mean like trying to claw back money from the hands of the Trump family? 427 00:25:33.927 --> 00:25:34.247 Right. 428 00:25:34.387 --> 00:25:45.671 So from a cynics perspective, right, if you're just like optimizing for Trump, then you could be like, oh, we already got the things we wanted out of crypto. 429 00:25:45.691 --> 00:25:49.813 So we're fine with signing something that talks about ethics for moving forward. 430 00:25:49.873 --> 00:25:52.874 But like there's no way you're touching what we already have. 431 00:25:53.374 --> 00:25:55.595 So they weren't really losing anything either, were they? 432 00:25:55.615 --> 00:25:56.055 Yeah. 433 00:25:56.315 --> 00:25:57.396 Yeah, yeah, that's fair. 434 00:25:57.476 --> 00:26:10.106 I will say that I do think Donald Trump does have a very large role in why the Clarity Act did not pass by just not agreeing to the ethics provision and doing all the grifting in the first place. 435 00:26:10.306 --> 00:26:12.368 Like imagine a world where he didn't do any of that. 436 00:26:12.888 --> 00:26:13.229 None of it. 437 00:26:13.269 --> 00:26:13.609 Totally. 438 00:26:13.729 --> 00:26:14.770 Do you think it would have passed? 439 00:26:15.335 --> 00:26:18.318 I think a lot of crypto Twitter is blaming the Democrats for voting no. 440 00:26:18.578 --> 00:26:23.644 And I think we should also be blaming Donald Trump for just making this such a big issue in the first place. 441 00:26:23.684 --> 00:26:26.066 Like Donald Trump is the biggest reason why Clarity Act did not pass. 442 00:26:26.086 --> 00:26:27.007 That is a true statement. 443 00:26:27.668 --> 00:26:32.352 And yet, David, and yet his administration with Paul Atkins and Mike Selig... 444 00:26:33.013 --> 00:26:43.855 continues to deliver on promises for crypto, not in a legislative way because they can't, because they are regulators, but in a way that also matters with some of these proposed rules. 445 00:26:43.935 --> 00:26:46.696 So this is Mike Selig on the back of this. 446 00:26:46.716 --> 00:26:49.797 He is the chairman of the CFTC. 447 00:26:50.277 --> 00:26:53.618 And of course, he had this tweet, I'm sure, primed to go. 448 00:26:53.858 --> 00:26:55.038 Primed to go, that's right. 449 00:26:55.278 --> 00:26:57.519 He said the outcome of yesterday's Senate vote was unfortunate. 450 00:26:57.539 --> 00:27:03.682 Americans deserve regulatory clarity, legal certainty, and consumer protections in crypto asset markets. 451 00:27:04.322 --> 00:27:08.404 And he continues to say the U.S. is and will remain the crypto capital of the world. 452 00:27:09.744 --> 00:27:14.766 Paul Atkins made similar statements when it was announced that clarity was not going to pass. 453 00:27:14.806 --> 00:27:18.408 He said, I have been unequivocal with or without legislation. 454 00:27:18.828 --> 00:27:23.330 We will act decisively within the SEC's statutory policy. 455 00:27:23.710 --> 00:27:28.112 authority to deliver certainty for American investors, shaping the future. 456 00:27:29.532 --> 00:27:33.614 And then he ends the tweet with stay tuned in bold. 457 00:27:34.434 --> 00:27:37.195 And so the crypto industry did stay tuned. 458 00:27:37.595 --> 00:27:43.497 First, I think Haseeb put out a tweet that I did, I think did a very good job talking about, okay, we're not getting clarity. 459 00:27:43.918 --> 00:27:44.918 What can we get? 460 00:27:45.458 --> 00:27:48.200 What can we get from the SEC and the CFTC? 461 00:27:48.821 --> 00:27:51.203 He says nothing stops them from doing rulemaking now. 462 00:27:51.403 --> 00:27:53.124 Rules aren't as durable as a law. 463 00:27:53.365 --> 00:27:53.665 True. 464 00:27:54.025 --> 00:27:58.549 But the best defense against a hostile future administration isn't a law or regulation. 465 00:27:59.009 --> 00:28:00.010 It's adoption. 466 00:28:00.470 --> 00:28:02.612 Did he see wrote that or AI wrote that? 467 00:28:04.586 --> 00:28:06.787 This is what protected Uber and Airbnb. 468 00:28:06.847 --> 00:28:08.167 Fantastic examples. 469 00:28:08.547 --> 00:28:10.548 Adoption is now the mandate for the industry. 470 00:28:10.568 --> 00:28:13.029 And so he lists out what agencies can do. 471 00:28:13.729 --> 00:28:15.089 Exemptive relief. 472 00:28:15.349 --> 00:28:18.050 So like carving out exceptions for things. 473 00:28:18.570 --> 00:28:23.092 No action letters like telling companies, hey, we're not going to come after you if you go do this thing. 474 00:28:23.712 --> 00:28:26.513 Registration pathways, project crypto and rulemaking. 475 00:28:26.633 --> 00:28:27.654 Those are like the big things. 476 00:28:27.975 --> 00:28:34.944 So when Paul Atkins at the SEC says, stay tuned in bold at the end of his tweet, what are we staying sued for? 477 00:28:35.185 --> 00:28:35.946 Yes. 478 00:28:36.026 --> 00:28:42.014 So this morning, the day of recording, September the 17th, this morning, the SEC releases the innovation exemption 479 00:28:43.093 --> 00:28:53.561 This is an exemption for allowing tokenized stocks to trade on AMMs and other DEXs on public permissionless blockchains. 480 00:28:53.902 --> 00:29:02.509 Now, this is unique and not the same as Robinhood tokenized stocks, you know, Kraken, X stocks or Bakkt or Ondo. 481 00:29:02.889 --> 00:29:06.852 Those are tokenized stocks in like kind of backdoor-y ways. 482 00:29:06.952 --> 00:29:12.457 These like tokenized debt securities, things that have one-to-one economic representation of the stock. 483 00:29:12.937 --> 00:29:37.792 What the SEC is talking about is things that are truly one-to-one tokenized stocks that have KYC and whitelisting, and they are giving an exemption to DEXs, things like Uniswap, things like Aerodrome, so that those DEXs, those trading facilities, those exchanges are not considered exchanges as broker-dealers. 484 00:29:37.932 --> 00:29:39.493 So these are not dealers. 485 00:29:39.953 --> 00:29:41.374 Uniswap is not a dealer. 486 00:29:41.394 --> 00:29:45.238 Aerodrome is not a dealer because that's what this exemption says. 487 00:29:45.318 --> 00:29:46.139 They're a TSV. 488 00:29:46.399 --> 00:29:48.181 They're a trading venue. 489 00:29:48.841 --> 00:29:50.082 They are a trading venue. 490 00:29:50.363 --> 00:29:51.684 What's the TSV stand for again? 491 00:29:52.442 --> 00:29:52.882 No clue. 492 00:29:53.042 --> 00:29:57.524 The SEC added a bunch of acronyms onto our acronyms. 493 00:29:57.824 --> 00:29:59.425 The TSV, I think, is like a DEX. 494 00:29:59.825 --> 00:30:00.626 Okay. 495 00:30:00.666 --> 00:30:00.866 Okay. 496 00:30:01.006 --> 00:30:01.666 It's like a DEX. 497 00:30:02.146 --> 00:30:10.390 And so some of the, I guess, would these be brokers that might be first users of the exemption could be... 498 00:30:11.090 --> 00:30:18.394 a Securitize or a Coinbase or a Denari or a Robinhood or an Ondo or all the tokenized stock providers that we've talked about in the past, right? 499 00:30:18.674 --> 00:30:21.055 Those could be users of this exemption. 500 00:30:21.236 --> 00:30:21.696 Is that right? 501 00:30:22.316 --> 00:30:22.896 That is correct. 502 00:30:22.936 --> 00:30:23.417 That is correct. 503 00:30:23.457 --> 00:30:30.961 Now, if you go and look at the Securitize asset price on the public stock market, because they went public a few months ago, Securitize is up like 504 00:30:31.621 --> 00:30:44.204 30% today on this news because Securitize specifically is best enabled by this because they are trying to do the one-to-one actual tokenization of a real equity as opposed to just economic rights. 505 00:30:44.264 --> 00:30:46.685 And so this is like a, this is onshore and offshore. 506 00:30:47.045 --> 00:30:57.307 And so all of the tokenized stocks that we're talking about being paired with meme coins on Robinhood chain or the tokenized stocks from Ondo that have been online for forever, those are offshore. 507 00:30:57.587 --> 00:30:59.027 Those are offshore instruments. 508 00:30:59.147 --> 00:31:02.789 Those are not impacted, not relevant to this exemption. 509 00:31:03.089 --> 00:31:04.029 Those will still run. 510 00:31:04.189 --> 00:31:05.389 Those will still exist. 511 00:31:06.110 --> 00:31:16.493 With this exemption, we have the first foot in the door to onshore versions of these things that are KYC, whitelisted, governance rights, economic rights, all that stuff. 512 00:31:16.713 --> 00:31:24.215 And that the exemption allows them to trade on things like Uniswap and Aerodrome and other exchange facilities on public permissionless blockchains. 513 00:31:24.455 --> 00:31:30.918 No, you told me that was actually, you found that out because that was your first question to the SEC after you got a call from what, Washington, D.C.? 514 00:31:31.739 --> 00:31:34.420 You got a call from the SEC, David, but in a good way? 515 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:35.800 Yeah, in a good way. 516 00:31:36.001 --> 00:31:42.444 I got a call from the SEC yesterday saying, hey, we're hosting a little Q&A session for people like you to ask questions like this. 517 00:31:42.864 --> 00:31:47.006 And so I was asking, Laura Shin took my question and like... 518 00:31:47.546 --> 00:31:48.786 drill down even further. 519 00:31:49.107 --> 00:31:54.208 Like, we're still cool with the offshore tokenized stocks. 520 00:31:54.628 --> 00:32:00.470 And I was like, does this pertain to the existing tokenized stock things that we already have? 521 00:32:00.670 --> 00:32:01.611 And they were like, no, no, no. 522 00:32:01.631 --> 00:32:04.592 So those are offshore and United States investors are not allowed to access those. 523 00:32:04.612 --> 00:32:06.372 We pretend they don't exist, right? 524 00:32:06.412 --> 00:32:07.793 It's like tender or something. 525 00:32:07.913 --> 00:32:12.334 This is about getting all of that activity onshore in a compliant and regulated way. 526 00:32:12.975 --> 00:32:14.115 And that's great. 527 00:32:15.335 --> 00:32:21.077 I think the KYC whitelisting burden is going to be just a non-negotiable to the market. 528 00:32:21.117 --> 00:32:23.517 The market doesn't want a whitelisted tokenized stock. 529 00:32:23.677 --> 00:32:27.578 It wants a permissionless tokenized economic rights. 530 00:32:27.638 --> 00:32:28.638 No one cares about voting. 531 00:32:28.658 --> 00:32:30.039 You kind of want both. 532 00:32:30.059 --> 00:32:30.759 And we already have those. 533 00:32:30.979 --> 00:32:35.160 But there's no way a company wants a permissionless... 534 00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:44.202 There's no way an actual company with shareholders wants token holder, shareholder votes in the hand of some hacker from North Korea. 535 00:32:44.842 --> 00:32:45.603 That's probably true. 536 00:32:45.823 --> 00:32:46.023 Yeah. 537 00:32:46.183 --> 00:32:55.891 So that's why these more legitimate tokenized like shares with all of the shareholder rights, including governance votes. 538 00:32:56.651 --> 00:33:04.638 That's why the SEC is going to bless those and the others will be available for offshore non-US participants. 539 00:33:05.693 --> 00:33:10.739 There's also some language in here in innovation exemption, which, by the way, innovation exemption. 540 00:33:11.019 --> 00:33:17.225 It sounds a lot like Hester Peirce's innovation sandbox idea that she's been talking about for like seven years. 541 00:33:17.605 --> 00:33:19.888 This is Hester Peirce's efforts coming to fruition. 542 00:33:20.008 --> 00:33:20.829 Thank you, Hester. 543 00:33:21.169 --> 00:33:23.712 People don't remember enough and thank her enough. 544 00:33:24.072 --> 00:33:25.654 Permission also... 545 00:33:26.414 --> 00:33:35.745 I guess for the TSV to receive this exemption, the AMM has to be on a permissionless public blockchain. 546 00:33:36.406 --> 00:33:43.074 I think there's some language in the actual provision about this, in the actual token exemption. 547 00:33:43.895 --> 00:34:00.522 smart contracts, here's some language, smart contracts must be auditable, public, and deployed on a public, permissionless, distributed ledger, which kind of implies a walled garden chain where there's not a distributed validator base would fail that test. 548 00:34:00.982 --> 00:34:08.085 And so wouldn't be eligible, the AMM on that chain would not be eligible for this type of exemption. 549 00:34:08.145 --> 00:34:09.125 Was that covered in your call? 550 00:34:10.515 --> 00:34:13.336 That is a really good question that was not asked or covered. 551 00:34:14.056 --> 00:34:18.917 The definition around what is a public permissionless ledger was not specifically hashed out. 552 00:34:19.457 --> 00:34:21.618 Because we haven't hashed it out in crypto, have we? 553 00:34:21.658 --> 00:34:23.518 Like, we know Bitcoin is permissionless. 554 00:34:23.558 --> 00:34:25.219 We know Ethereum is permissionless. 555 00:34:25.479 --> 00:34:28.180 We kind of think Solana is, right? 556 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:28.580 Yeah. 557 00:34:28.940 --> 00:34:29.140 Uh-huh. 558 00:34:29.740 --> 00:34:31.862 What about Canton Network? 559 00:34:32.222 --> 00:34:34.443 What about single sequencer L2s? 560 00:34:35.104 --> 00:34:35.884 What about base? 561 00:34:35.984 --> 00:34:37.185 What about Robinhood chain? 562 00:34:37.505 --> 00:34:38.386 Who decides that? 563 00:34:38.946 --> 00:34:40.507 Some more gray area to work through, right? 564 00:34:40.527 --> 00:34:40.707 Yeah. 565 00:34:41.088 --> 00:34:45.090 Uncertain these questions will need to be hashed out as this comes online. 566 00:34:45.771 --> 00:34:54.697 There was also something I found, I guess, somewhat sandboxy, but also still somewhat annoying or a little bit of cold water splashed on this is there's going to be caps too. 567 00:34:54.717 --> 00:34:54.817 Yeah. 568 00:34:55.597 --> 00:35:07.464 So for a given asset, there can't be more than 0.25% of daily volume or else it kind of breaks the exemption here. 569 00:35:08.085 --> 00:35:24.855 So the way that that works is that if there is a thousand shares traded on a day in the normal public equity stock market, then in this version with the exemption on chain, only 25 shares can trade as a volume cap per day. 570 00:35:25.095 --> 00:35:25.435 Yikes. 571 00:35:26.196 --> 00:35:30.580 I mean, that makes it like so you can have size, you can have large institutions. 572 00:35:31.261 --> 00:35:34.964 It really limits this to kind of a small retail type environment. 573 00:35:34.984 --> 00:35:38.427 So truly as a sandbox, and this is not going to be massive volume. 574 00:35:40.309 --> 00:35:44.792 Like, I mean, even compared to perps, you can't really get massive volume if you're only 0.25% of trading volume daily. 575 00:35:46.810 --> 00:35:53.415 Yeah, yeah, this is, like, I think the offshore permissionless ones are going to work. 576 00:35:53.575 --> 00:35:55.476 And this is like, I'm sorry, I don't want this. 577 00:35:55.676 --> 00:35:56.657 I don't want a KYC. 578 00:35:56.857 --> 00:35:58.478 I want to be able to go straight to Uniswap. 579 00:35:58.759 --> 00:36:00.460 And I don't want to be capped on the volume. 580 00:36:01.020 --> 00:36:04.603 And, like, size is not size here. 581 00:36:05.649 --> 00:36:06.049 Yeah. 582 00:36:06.089 --> 00:36:17.339 So are you somewhat worried that, yes, they've legitimized this approach, but this got too many rules and handcuffs to make it actually practical versus Tradify? 583 00:36:17.359 --> 00:36:20.081 It's the expected approach. 584 00:36:20.181 --> 00:36:24.905 Like they were like the SEC is never going to do away with KYC for tokenized equities. 585 00:36:25.345 --> 00:36:30.708 It's just like they're competing with some of the fundamental properties of what makes a blockchain a blockchain. 586 00:36:30.828 --> 00:36:35.550 Permissionlessness, global access, instant settlement. 587 00:36:36.010 --> 00:36:39.732 And the current versions of the offshore tokenized stocks have all of those things. 588 00:36:40.532 --> 00:36:45.414 And the KYC Onshore compliant ones are strictly an inferior product. 589 00:36:45.894 --> 00:36:51.036 Maybe I say that as like a retail participant and somebody at BlackRock can come and tell me why I'm dumb and wrong. 590 00:36:51.096 --> 00:36:56.538 But like I know me and all my friends what our answer is, to which product we prefer. 591 00:36:57.939 --> 00:37:01.981 Nick Drossi has a take that might signify this is just a sign of things to come. 592 00:37:02.161 --> 00:37:09.024 He said this, I think there are a number of politicians who are going to wish they passed Clarity Act by the time regulators are done pushing crypto forward. 593 00:37:09.324 --> 00:37:18.868 So what he's saying is basically all the people that voted no because they don't want tokenization or don't want crypto infused into the traditional finance system. 594 00:37:19.428 --> 00:37:27.291 Well, it would have been much more conservative for them to pass the Clarity Act because regulators are just full steam ahead now on everything. 595 00:37:27.631 --> 00:37:31.957 It's almost like Atkins and Selig just got out their capes and they're like, we'll save the day. 596 00:37:32.157 --> 00:37:34.740 We'll do clarity and we'll do even more than clarity. 597 00:37:35.060 --> 00:37:38.264 We'll go above and beyond is what Jirasi is saying here. 598 00:37:39.192 --> 00:37:40.533 We have an early rumor. 599 00:37:40.553 --> 00:37:44.537 This didn't get any sort of official press release by the CFTC, not one that I found yet. 600 00:37:44.637 --> 00:37:46.718 But Justin, this is from Watcher Guru. 601 00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:54.145 CFTC permits developers to build passive derivative software without registering as brokers, including for crypto markets. 602 00:37:54.305 --> 00:37:58.128 And so the CFTC also has their thing ready to go. 603 00:37:58.549 --> 00:37:59.389 Same with the SEC. 604 00:37:59.810 --> 00:38:06.735 And there's also this roundtable for 24-hour trading that's happening as well from the SEC. 605 00:38:07.942 --> 00:38:08.723 Yeah, that's happening today. 606 00:38:08.743 --> 00:38:20.169 There's a discussion with industry participants from the crypto side, but also from the TradFi side, simply to discuss what 24-7, 365 trading looks like in market structure. 607 00:38:20.350 --> 00:38:21.430 And so things are moving. 608 00:38:21.510 --> 00:38:21.971 Balls are moving. 609 00:38:22.251 --> 00:38:29.255 This also might be a type of answer to the concern that the AMC CEO had last week with Bitcoin. 610 00:38:29.455 --> 00:38:34.622 the fact that AMC stock was tokenized in some form on Robinhood chain. 611 00:38:35.823 --> 00:38:37.285 He clarified his concern, by the way. 612 00:38:37.345 --> 00:38:44.254 He said his biggest concern was that Robinhood stocks lack the voting rights that token holders had. 613 00:38:44.995 --> 00:38:47.116 So that was the thing. 614 00:38:47.296 --> 00:38:50.738 He really wants his token holders to have voting rights. 615 00:38:50.958 --> 00:38:58.022 He's very disappointed that the people buying AMC shares on Robin Hood chain aren't able to vote in AMC governance. 616 00:38:58.182 --> 00:38:59.142 That's what he's concerned about. 617 00:38:59.162 --> 00:39:01.524 That's what it came down to once pressed. 618 00:39:01.864 --> 00:39:02.164 All right. 619 00:39:02.204 --> 00:39:05.406 Remember he had all of these paragraphs of tweets about how much he hated it. 620 00:39:05.466 --> 00:39:06.266 Lots of words. 621 00:39:06.506 --> 00:39:08.287 How vile and disgusting it was. 622 00:39:08.347 --> 00:39:09.468 And it came down as... 623 00:39:10.288 --> 00:39:14.730 So right before hopping on to record with you, I was talking to Johan from Robin Hood. 624 00:39:14.930 --> 00:39:15.150 Yeah. 625 00:39:15.390 --> 00:39:16.211 I brought this up. 626 00:39:16.231 --> 00:39:20.152 I brought it to like the AMCA CEO called you guys like vile and contemptible. 627 00:39:20.172 --> 00:39:20.872 What do you think about that? 628 00:39:20.912 --> 00:39:24.714 Well, he thinks an asset without any voting rights is just disgusting. 629 00:39:24.774 --> 00:39:25.734 It's just like vile. 630 00:39:26.074 --> 00:39:29.256 It's just like should not be allowed to exist. 631 00:39:29.776 --> 00:39:34.298 Anyway, it's interesting because the SEC exemption... 632 00:39:35.348 --> 00:39:36.428 also says the same thing. 633 00:39:36.749 --> 00:39:42.931 All of the SEC exempted tokens would also include shareholder voting rights. 634 00:39:42.951 --> 00:39:44.352 So he gets it that way. 635 00:39:44.752 --> 00:39:47.073 Also, Vlad said that he would do that too, right? 636 00:39:47.773 --> 00:39:56.317 Yeah, so he's just making, so Vlad said Robinhood tokenized stocks, the offshore ones, will also have in-kind redemption and voting for Robinhood stock tokens. 637 00:39:56.517 --> 00:39:56.937 Okay. 638 00:39:56.957 --> 00:40:03.580 So like, we're basically approaching feature parity with real equities, except for the KYC, which like, 639 00:40:04.505 --> 00:40:05.125 Cry me a river. 640 00:40:05.305 --> 00:40:05.926 I don't want that. 641 00:40:08.527 --> 00:40:10.288 It's a feature to not have KYC. 642 00:40:10.809 --> 00:40:13.150 Well, I guess that's resolved then. 643 00:40:13.310 --> 00:40:16.192 I don't know what the AMC CEO was so worried about. 644 00:40:16.212 --> 00:40:18.893 It almost feels like a big attention hijacking game. 645 00:40:19.273 --> 00:40:24.476 You think this was like an underground thing to put some more light on Robinhood tokens? 646 00:40:24.496 --> 00:40:26.918 It was like a PR campaign to have the AMC CEO. 647 00:40:27.038 --> 00:40:27.918 I don't think so. 648 00:40:28.078 --> 00:40:29.199 I don't think so. 649 00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:30.279 It's just so weird. 650 00:40:30.500 --> 00:40:32.401 We are in the very early stages of... 651 00:40:33.101 --> 00:40:45.165 Something that may never manifest, but something that could manifest is like all of these tokenized stocks coming on chain and then DGEN is doing weird things with them and then grabbing the attention of the relevant CEO in question. 652 00:40:46.085 --> 00:40:51.647 If like crypto ever got big in a cycle once again, like that would be a fantastic movie to watch. 653 00:40:51.747 --> 00:40:52.627 And I hope it plays out. 654 00:40:53.228 --> 00:40:53.928 What's coming up next? 655 00:40:54.823 --> 00:40:59.707 Coming up next, I'm going to give a take about why options might be the next meta in the crypto industry. 656 00:40:59.727 --> 00:41:01.668 A lot of attention is going on options these days. 657 00:41:01.748 --> 00:41:03.229 It's actually a pretty competitive field. 658 00:41:03.289 --> 00:41:04.630 Hyperliquid is trying to build options. 659 00:41:05.091 --> 00:41:06.412 Lighter is trying to build options. 660 00:41:06.712 --> 00:41:09.654 Derive is already building options and already got options. 661 00:41:10.034 --> 00:41:14.378 And options are kind of like the last derivative that we haven't really produced on the crypto industry. 662 00:41:14.398 --> 00:41:15.098 So we're going to talk about that. 663 00:41:15.118 --> 00:41:17.540 We're going to talk about Hyperliquid coming to the United States. 664 00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:20.983 We're going to talk about growth in Venice and also the ARC chain launch. 665 00:41:21.043 --> 00:41:23.885 But first, let's hear about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. 666 00:41:24.145 --> 00:41:29.630 Some exciting news, we are launching a new podcast to help people figure out the crypto cycle, how to navigate it. 667 00:41:29.730 --> 00:41:33.553 The best crypto cycle investor I know, his name is Michael Nato, he runs the DeFi Report. 668 00:41:33.613 --> 00:41:38.377 This is the guy that sent me a sell alert before the 1010 price drop happened. 669 00:41:38.557 --> 00:41:41.019 His cycle analysis has been absolutely on point. 670 00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:42.440 I've been following him for years. 671 00:41:42.600 --> 00:41:46.023 And this year we started recording weekly podcast episodes. 672 00:41:46.183 --> 00:41:53.946 Each one, we get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and where we are in the cycle. 673 00:41:54.046 --> 00:41:56.447 There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday. 674 00:41:56.507 --> 00:41:57.247 They're 30 minutes. 675 00:41:57.307 --> 00:41:57.768 They're short. 676 00:41:57.808 --> 00:41:58.448 They're punchy. 677 00:41:58.568 --> 00:42:00.949 I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most. 678 00:42:01.189 --> 00:42:02.429 So let's do it together. 679 00:42:02.570 --> 00:42:03.790 Go subscribe to this podcast. 680 00:42:03.830 --> 00:42:06.431 Search The DeFi Report wherever you get your podcasts. 681 00:42:06.491 --> 00:42:09.552 YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find the link in the show notes. 682 00:42:09.692 --> 00:42:11.253 There's a new episode waiting for you now. 683 00:42:11.513 --> 00:42:19.635 Okay, we've had perps in crypto for a while, decentralized perps, hyperliquid, lighter, they have popularized that, massive successful products. 684 00:42:20.336 --> 00:42:25.017 We've never had successful options in crypto. 685 00:42:25.297 --> 00:42:29.959 I mean, previously it's been like illegal, but there have been a lot of teams that have really tried to do this. 686 00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:30.979 Nothing has taken off. 687 00:42:31.698 --> 00:42:35.579 There has been a graveyard of startups trying to build options in crypto. 688 00:42:35.659 --> 00:42:37.399 And so, you know, but maybe. 689 00:42:37.780 --> 00:42:38.560 This time is different. 690 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:40.560 This time is different. 691 00:42:41.580 --> 00:42:43.741 And so I recorded with the Drive team. 692 00:42:44.241 --> 00:42:45.501 That episode came out on Monday. 693 00:42:45.902 --> 00:42:49.482 And I asked them this question, like, why haven't options worked in crypto? 694 00:42:49.522 --> 00:42:51.783 The perpetual has worked so incredibly well. 695 00:42:52.163 --> 00:42:53.103 We have other derivatives. 696 00:42:53.123 --> 00:42:53.603 We have other. 697 00:42:53.623 --> 00:42:54.144 Why not options? 698 00:42:54.224 --> 00:42:54.584 Yeah. 699 00:42:56.164 --> 00:42:58.086 And his answer, I thought, was actually pretty good. 700 00:42:58.106 --> 00:43:05.952 Like for the first time, you need a pretty diverse set of market participants with different directional opinions that all cross in a double coincidence of wants. 701 00:43:06.292 --> 00:43:10.295 But you need like a large set of very diversified opinions. 702 00:43:10.395 --> 00:43:11.696 And we don't really have that yet. 703 00:43:11.736 --> 00:43:16.039 We've really just had kind of concentrated retail and then crypto native funds. 704 00:43:17.420 --> 00:43:24.342 The claim now from Nick is that we are finally in an era in crypto where we have a sufficiently large set of market participants. 705 00:43:24.782 --> 00:43:39.745 And then also, this was also probably the most interesting take of that episode that he gave me, was that 1010 showed a lot of perp traders how much extra risk encumbrance a perpetual position has that an option does not. 706 00:43:40.125 --> 00:43:40.385 Okay. 707 00:43:40.566 --> 00:43:46.487 And so an option, you pick your asset, you pick your price point, you pick your date of expiry, 708 00:43:47.307 --> 00:43:48.108 And that's it. 709 00:43:48.488 --> 00:43:50.970 You don't get liquidated along the way. 710 00:43:51.050 --> 00:43:56.274 So with a perpetual, you can be directionally right, but still get liquidated due to volatility. 711 00:43:57.034 --> 00:44:05.340 Whereas an option, you can be directionally right and not get liquidated along the way because you can go deep out of the money, deep in the red. 712 00:44:05.740 --> 00:44:12.105 But so long as you have time left in your option contract, you can wait it out in a way that a perpetual can't. 713 00:44:12.645 --> 00:44:17.628 And so you also remove yourself from risk from the platform itself. 714 00:44:17.988 --> 00:44:18.268 Yeah. 715 00:44:18.328 --> 00:44:26.753 So like if your platform goes down or there's contagion or ADLing or whatever, if you own an options contract, you don't have that worry. 716 00:44:27.673 --> 00:44:30.595 And so- That was like my big question going in. 717 00:44:30.795 --> 00:44:32.936 It's just like, why do we need options when we have perps? 718 00:44:33.096 --> 00:44:33.997 Aren't perps better? 719 00:44:34.357 --> 00:44:37.839 But Nick's answer was that they're different. 720 00:44:37.859 --> 00:44:39.160 This almost reminds me of like, 721 00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:42.442 the gang learns about options, right? 722 00:44:42.643 --> 00:44:44.024 That's exactly what's going on. 723 00:44:45.625 --> 00:44:49.128 Oh, that's why options exist in TradFi. 724 00:44:49.629 --> 00:44:50.269 Oh, okay. 725 00:44:50.329 --> 00:44:51.751 So perps can't do everything. 726 00:44:51.811 --> 00:44:53.492 It's like a different product. 727 00:44:53.832 --> 00:44:56.395 Because Drive also has perps as well. 728 00:44:56.955 --> 00:44:57.435 In a small way? 729 00:44:57.455 --> 00:44:58.295 They also have perps as well. 730 00:44:58.375 --> 00:44:58.976 Yeah, they are. 731 00:44:59.036 --> 00:44:59.756 They are dominant. 732 00:44:59.816 --> 00:45:02.717 Ironically, they dominate on hype options. 733 00:45:03.117 --> 00:45:07.178 And so the most liquid hype options volume is on Derive. 734 00:45:07.598 --> 00:45:07.838 Okay. 735 00:45:07.898 --> 00:45:11.499 So the Derive token has done incredibly well this last week. 736 00:45:11.779 --> 00:45:15.901 It is up 150% in the last month and 50% in the last two weeks. 737 00:45:16.521 --> 00:45:20.382 And so I kind of think this is like a starting pistol for the options race. 738 00:45:21.062 --> 00:45:23.943 Lighter is definitely trying to get into the options world. 739 00:45:24.083 --> 00:45:25.864 Hyperliquid has enabled options. 740 00:45:26.084 --> 00:45:31.246 So they are like, Derive is kind of like this, David versus Goliath versus Hyperliquid. 741 00:45:31.446 --> 00:45:36.367 I don't know if Lighter counts as a Goliath yet, but there are three players in the options world. 742 00:45:36.467 --> 00:45:41.189 And I think like the options meta could be like a theme for the rest of the year. 743 00:45:41.209 --> 00:45:43.510 It's like everyone is converging into on-chain Robinhood. 744 00:45:43.710 --> 00:45:46.371 Even Robinhood is converging into on-chain Robinhood. 745 00:45:46.391 --> 00:45:46.831 That's right. 746 00:45:47.171 --> 00:45:47.571 That's right. 747 00:45:47.791 --> 00:45:48.152 That's right. 748 00:45:49.392 --> 00:46:01.155 Meanwhile, still on the hyperliquid front, Kraken is bringing perps to the onshore U.S. market via a compliant KYC permissioned HIP3 marketplace. 749 00:46:01.755 --> 00:46:12.878 And so onshore U.S. citizens and entities are going to be able to trade perps that basically route through, that are hyperliquid, but through Kraken as a front end. 750 00:46:13.118 --> 00:46:13.578 Wait a second. 751 00:46:13.618 --> 00:46:14.198 That's pretty cool. 752 00:46:14.298 --> 00:46:18.839 Is this similar to the Leiter and Robinhood relationship or is it different? 753 00:46:18.859 --> 00:46:18.999 Yes. 754 00:46:21.224 --> 00:46:25.575 different in the sense that that was not Robinhood core app. 755 00:46:25.615 --> 00:46:26.838 That was Robinhood wallet. 756 00:46:27.821 --> 00:46:30.362 And I think that's only available to people in the EU. 757 00:46:30.442 --> 00:46:32.143 I could be wrong about that. 758 00:46:32.364 --> 00:46:40.008 But this is like the Kraken exchange, whereas Leiter and Robinhood was on the Robinhood wallet app, which is everyone wants to be in the Robinhood core. 759 00:46:40.788 --> 00:46:41.028 Wow. 760 00:46:41.248 --> 00:46:41.549 Okay. 761 00:46:41.669 --> 00:46:42.469 So that's a big deal. 762 00:46:42.489 --> 00:46:43.590 It's a big deal. 763 00:46:43.850 --> 00:46:47.572 Onshore perps, hyperliquid, decentralized, coming to the U.S. Yep. 764 00:46:47.592 --> 00:46:48.592 That's right. 765 00:46:48.893 --> 00:46:49.173 That's right. 766 00:46:50.127 --> 00:46:56.589 The other cool bullish chart that I saw was this chart from Eric Voorhees talking about the rate of token consumption on Venice. 767 00:46:57.249 --> 00:46:58.249 It is a accelerating. 768 00:46:58.269 --> 00:46:58.790 Wait, wait, wait. 769 00:46:58.810 --> 00:46:59.010 Tokens. 770 00:46:59.410 --> 00:47:00.010 Which tokens? 771 00:47:00.670 --> 00:47:01.510 Which tokens? 772 00:47:01.550 --> 00:47:02.771 We talking about you. 773 00:47:02.851 --> 00:47:05.372 AI token consumption on Venice. 774 00:47:05.772 --> 00:47:09.273 And so I was just like kind of loosely did some math on this chart. 775 00:47:09.833 --> 00:47:12.494 The chart is doubling every two months. 776 00:47:12.774 --> 00:47:17.035 So it was like six months ago, it was at 50 million tokens a day or is that billion? 777 00:47:18.351 --> 00:47:22.494 50 billion tokens a day, and we are now at 250 billion tokens a day. 778 00:47:22.975 --> 00:47:28.639 So I think like the game is, can you model the growth of Venice token consumption to VVV? 779 00:47:28.680 --> 00:47:36.166 Because it's like reductively one-to-one in terms of token consumption versus VVV value capture. 780 00:47:36.946 --> 00:47:43.392 And so if this continues to accelerate up into the right, you would see like a repricing of VVV to account for like this accelerated growth. 781 00:47:43.712 --> 00:47:43.852 Wow. 782 00:47:44.172 --> 00:48:00.314 I'm really hoping for some superstar tokens to just like that have strong value accrual properties investor alignment to just dissolve the current narrative and token curse that all of these things are lemons. 783 00:48:01.275 --> 00:48:02.996 And they can't be owned. 784 00:48:03.016 --> 00:48:03.996 They're uninvestable. 785 00:48:04.336 --> 00:48:06.057 We have to make tokens investable again. 786 00:48:06.197 --> 00:48:15.441 And what that requires is tokens like VVV, tokens like Hype, tokens like Lit, value accrual tokens to be successful. 787 00:48:15.501 --> 00:48:18.542 It even takes 25% of their fees to buy the token. 788 00:48:19.442 --> 00:48:20.443 That's the model. 789 00:48:20.663 --> 00:48:27.568 And we need to have some successes, huge successes there, not just one or two, more than a handful. 790 00:48:28.088 --> 00:48:31.731 You have like a dozen, two dozen kind of just successes there. 791 00:48:32.091 --> 00:48:34.413 Then you got the market back and you have the asset class back. 792 00:48:34.493 --> 00:48:38.056 And that's what it's going to take to rebuild from the sins of our past. 793 00:48:38.956 --> 00:48:45.061 Speaking of rebuilding from the sins of our past, Archchain has launched with about 100 meme coin launch pads on day one. 794 00:48:45.101 --> 00:48:45.421 Yeah. 795 00:48:45.621 --> 00:48:46.001 Oh, wait. 796 00:48:46.521 --> 00:48:47.662 Doesn't seem very rebuildy. 797 00:48:47.682 --> 00:48:51.384 That's a corpo L1 with a... That's a current sin, maybe. 798 00:48:51.544 --> 00:48:52.324 Isn't it kind of a... 799 00:48:52.404 --> 00:49:01.088 Isn't it oxymoronic to have ARK, the USCC basically Fed coin chain, launch with like 100 meme coin launch pads? 800 00:49:01.208 --> 00:49:03.289 You got to give the people what they want, David. 801 00:49:03.309 --> 00:49:04.970 How are you going to get product market fit? 802 00:49:04.990 --> 00:49:06.091 That's what we do here. 803 00:49:07.181 --> 00:49:20.853 So I was kind of wondering, like, is ARK going to take the tempo path and like integrate into e-commerce websites, optimize for payments, just like not compete in the Alt Layer 1 landscape? 804 00:49:21.914 --> 00:49:23.955 Or is it going to try and compete in the Alt Layer 1 landscape? 805 00:49:24.055 --> 00:49:26.838 And the answer is firmly it's trying to compete in the Alt Layer 1 landscape. 806 00:49:27.236 --> 00:49:29.798 And I don't think they should be competing there at all. 807 00:49:29.818 --> 00:49:31.199 That is not their arena. 808 00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:39.787 It's interesting because it seems like they're doing the Robinhood play, but they don't have the Robinhood distribution. 809 00:49:39.807 --> 00:49:40.828 Distribution, that's right. 810 00:49:40.848 --> 00:49:43.290 Or the Robinhood front-end user interface. 811 00:49:44.090 --> 00:49:47.593 At its core, USDC is a back-end... 812 00:49:48.554 --> 00:50:01.245 asset and back end bank plumbing and it doesn't have the front end experience so it seems a little follower-y like fast follower-y to try to do this. 813 00:50:01.265 --> 00:50:05.249 The Venn diagram between USEC as a product and ARK as a product 814 00:50:06.973 --> 00:50:07.933 overlap very little. 815 00:50:08.394 --> 00:50:17.700 I get that all tech companies want to have a second season, a second act, but I don't get what ARC really adds to the mix. 816 00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:19.381 You could just say it's permissionless. 817 00:50:19.441 --> 00:50:21.622 This is what permissionless things do. 818 00:50:22.643 --> 00:50:26.286 That hot, bubbling vapor is going to boil off 819 00:50:26.906 --> 00:50:38.316 And once it boils off, then we'll have all of the infrastructure for agenic economic workflows and trading and liquidity and payments and settlement and tokenized assets. 820 00:50:39.317 --> 00:50:43.020 All of the things that ARK is advertising that they want to do in the future. 821 00:50:43.080 --> 00:50:47.464 So it's just a short term speculation thing that allows them to build the plumbing for later. 822 00:50:48.405 --> 00:50:48.665 Okay. 823 00:50:49.706 --> 00:50:50.667 It's hard to build a layer one. 824 00:50:51.287 --> 00:50:52.428 It's really hard to build. 825 00:50:52.448 --> 00:50:53.329 It's hard to build a layer one. 826 00:50:53.810 --> 00:50:53.910 Yeah. 827 00:50:53.930 --> 00:50:54.030 Yeah. 828 00:50:55.757 --> 00:50:57.439 Last bit of news before we close these things out. 829 00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:00.562 S&P Global acquires OpenZeppelin. 830 00:51:00.782 --> 00:51:06.308 OpenZeppelin, probably some of the best smart contract writers and auditors in crypto. 831 00:51:06.328 --> 00:51:07.570 They've been around for forever. 832 00:51:08.431 --> 00:51:10.913 Purchased, bought by S&P Global. 833 00:51:10.933 --> 00:51:11.554 Do we know how much? 834 00:51:12.515 --> 00:51:12.635 No. 835 00:51:13.610 --> 00:51:14.311 There's a number here. 836 00:51:14.711 --> 00:51:19.194 It's 37 trillion, but that is not the number they were purchased for. 837 00:51:19.234 --> 00:51:22.877 That is 37 trillion in value transferred from OpenZepelin. 838 00:51:22.897 --> 00:51:24.098 You know what? 839 00:51:24.198 --> 00:51:25.719 That's how you know we're at the end of the episode. 840 00:51:27.882 --> 00:51:40.688 A headline like this, though, seriously, would have blown my mind, I think, in original bankless thesis, decentralized finance, circa 2021. 841 00:51:40.708 --> 00:51:46.771 And if you gave me the headlines for, you know, September 17th, September 18th. 842 00:51:47.992 --> 00:51:57.365 2026, and you said Bankless was reporting that S&P has acquired OpenZeppelin, I'd be like, wow, we have really made it. 843 00:51:57.865 --> 00:51:59.347 I'm glad ETH is at 10K. 844 00:51:59.587 --> 00:52:00.509 That's fantastic. 845 00:52:03.984 --> 00:52:05.824 I was about to ask you, does it feel like we made it? 846 00:52:06.505 --> 00:52:09.825 You get, you know, like one or two of those at least. 847 00:52:10.085 --> 00:52:11.505 We've kind of made it. 848 00:52:11.605 --> 00:52:14.886 And that feels very much like crypto in 2026, doesn't it? 849 00:52:14.946 --> 00:52:16.486 It feels like we kind of made it. 850 00:52:17.186 --> 00:52:20.047 We didn't like make it, make it, but we kind of made it. 851 00:52:20.607 --> 00:52:21.287 We kind of made it. 852 00:52:21.607 --> 00:52:21.927 Yeah. 853 00:52:22.107 --> 00:52:27.668 We made it in a way that's a little bit different than I think the... We made it in a way that kind of hurts. 854 00:52:28.428 --> 00:52:29.849 And took longer. 855 00:52:29.869 --> 00:52:31.289 And took longer, yeah. 856 00:52:31.309 --> 00:52:31.669 Yeah. 857 00:52:32.209 --> 00:52:33.609 But that doesn't mean we can't make it more. 858 00:52:33.629 --> 00:52:35.810 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 859 00:52:36.450 --> 00:52:43.892 I think that's a big question, I think, for me, as we close out September and move to Q4, is what the fuck are the blue chips going to do? 860 00:52:44.852 --> 00:52:45.633 Where are the blue chips going? 861 00:52:45.933 --> 00:52:46.673 I know where they're going. 862 00:52:46.873 --> 00:52:50.854 If it's the early bull market, we stay in that band, they're going up, David. 863 00:52:52.098 --> 00:52:52.318 Okay. 864 00:52:52.979 --> 00:52:53.219 All right. 865 00:52:54.019 --> 00:52:54.640 I'll see you in a week. 866 00:52:55.140 --> 00:52:56.761 Bankization, you guys know the deal. 867 00:52:56.801 --> 00:52:59.003 Crypto is risky, but not risky enough. 868 00:52:59.023 --> 00:53:02.065 The institutions have landed, so we are going even further west. 869 00:53:02.325 --> 00:53:02.965 This is Frontier. 870 00:53:03.125 --> 00:53:06.408 It's not for everyone, but we are glad you are with us on the Bankless Journey. 871 00:53:06.468 --> 00:53:06.868 Thanks a lot.