WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.070 --> 00:00:14.379 When I sit down with CEOs, founders and working parents on this podcast, one thing that comes up again and again is the more you have to juggle, the more important it is that home and shopping for it isn't adding to that load. 2 00:00:14.520 --> 00:00:20.285 This moment's episode is sponsored by Wayfair, who understand that the spaces around us should support how we live. 3 00:00:20.505 --> 00:00:25.349 Here is Nicola Kilner talking about some of the systems that she's built to make work and home fit together better. 4 00:00:25.830 --> 00:00:26.330 What's your... 5 00:00:27.191 --> 00:00:49.801 opinion now on university when your children get to that age where they're about to make that decision you've got two young children when they get to 18 years old and if they said mommy i want to be entrepreneur like you what advice would you give them based on your experience so i actually would always probably recommend doing a few years in a corporate because i have to say at boots i learned so much 6 00:00:50.865 --> 00:00:53.027 you know, you learn the things that they do really well. 7 00:00:53.247 --> 00:00:59.452 You learn the things that they do, not necessarily wrong, but just the drawbacks of being such a big organization. 8 00:01:00.073 --> 00:01:07.519 So I think, you know, more than going to university, like those two, the two placement years I did at Boots, I learned incredibly so much. 9 00:01:08.160 --> 00:01:18.128 And depending on the kind of person you are, you know, if you go to a big corporate, it's so difficult to impact the culture there because there's just so many people, there's so much history. 10 00:01:19.309 --> 00:01:28.231 And if you are someone who's kind of got this strong drive to make a change, then, you know, entrepreneurship, I think, is just an incredible area. 11 00:01:28.251 --> 00:01:34.052 And even if it's not your idea, but going to join a startup, it's just incredible energy. 12 00:01:34.072 --> 00:01:37.193 I mean, it just would always be what I would recommend. 13 00:01:37.593 --> 00:01:48.015 At that point, if there was a key skill or a key set of skills that you took from your time working in a corporate app boots that then proved to be incredibly valuable as you went on, 14 00:01:49.070 --> 00:01:50.150 What were those skills? 15 00:01:52.271 --> 00:02:05.734 So when I graduated, I then stayed on and I was an assistant buyer to begin with, and then I got promoted to be a buying manager for them, which was really around relationships. 16 00:02:05.834 --> 00:02:07.194 It was about collaboration. 17 00:02:07.294 --> 00:02:17.597 It was about looking around the world, seeing new technologies, finding the innovation, new brands, and then really hand-holding those, which mainly were entrepreneurs, 18 00:02:18.137 --> 00:02:21.438 to come into Boots to actually show them, look, this is how we could launch. 19 00:02:22.058 --> 00:02:24.058 You know, we had a stand, it was called Latest Spines. 20 00:02:24.098 --> 00:02:30.040 We would launch a new innovation for a period of three months as a trial to see if it would work. 21 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:31.820 Would Boots consumers like this? 22 00:02:32.420 --> 00:02:34.961 If it did, they would get a listing with Boots kind of long term. 23 00:02:35.801 --> 00:02:40.862 And that just really suited my skill set because it was a very entrepreneurial role. 24 00:02:41.563 --> 00:02:42.623 Because actually, you know, I... 25 00:02:43.363 --> 00:02:47.866 I very much guided them with PR agencies and actually how to build the plan. 26 00:02:48.546 --> 00:02:54.010 And, you know, we used to have the saying of like launch and love because actually it's one thing to get a listing of boots. 27 00:02:54.210 --> 00:02:57.532 It's another thing for your product to actually be picked and taken off the shelf. 28 00:02:58.032 --> 00:03:01.815 Like the listing is just the first thing, you know, you you have to drive consumers. 29 00:03:01.835 --> 00:03:03.396 You have to have that entire plan. 30 00:03:04.156 --> 00:03:11.440 And I think it was just a really good way of actually learning from working with supply chain, working with finance, doing the checks with legal. 31 00:03:11.460 --> 00:03:12.120 Can we do this? 32 00:03:12.160 --> 00:03:13.001 What can we say? 33 00:03:13.521 --> 00:03:24.127 It was a really good sense of actually working with so many different departments and actually starting to understand, I think, consumer goods, learning demand, learning how to create it. 34 00:03:24.307 --> 00:03:26.789 So I feel like that role was created now. 35 00:03:27.629 --> 00:03:30.950 which really just suited my skill set incredibly well. 36 00:03:30.970 --> 00:03:32.191 And I'm very fortunate for that. 37 00:03:32.211 --> 00:03:34.011 And then that's also how I met Brandon. 38 00:03:34.372 --> 00:03:38.133 So actually it had a huge impact and obviously my next stage too. 39 00:03:38.613 --> 00:03:43.855 And Brandon was a business you were maybe, he had a business you were maybe looking at? 40 00:03:43.895 --> 00:03:47.176 Yeah, so he was with his previous business, which was called Indeed Labs. 41 00:03:47.697 --> 00:03:51.158 And we launched a couple of their products through this program, Latest Finds. 42 00:03:51.618 --> 00:03:53.299 So I'd worked with him and I remember 43 00:03:54.419 --> 00:04:01.170 And actually, this sounds alien now so many years ago, but you couldn't check your emails when you left the office. 44 00:04:01.811 --> 00:04:05.697 So often every morning I'd come in and I was dealing with a lot of international entrepreneurs. 45 00:04:06.138 --> 00:04:08.902 So I'd always come into like an inbox full of emails. 46 00:04:09.583 --> 00:04:14.467 I always remember like looking for his name because his email was always so full of energy. 47 00:04:15.248 --> 00:04:22.654 He always signed off Smiles Brandon, you know, just someone whose positivity, his passion just kind of really shone through that. 48 00:04:22.674 --> 00:04:25.316 I'd always go straight to his emails, kind of open it. 49 00:04:25.376 --> 00:04:32.763 And, you know, the launches that we did with Brandon and Indeed Labs were some of the most successful we did through the through the innovation program. 50 00:04:33.803 --> 00:04:41.289 And he was just, you know, when he used to come to the Boots head office in Nottingham, just it was bouncing off the walls with kind of this infectious energy. 51 00:04:41.309 --> 00:04:55.921 And I remember just from the day I met him thinking, gosh, I always want this person in my life because he just had this aurora and just someone who you knew wanted to actually also make the world a better place and kind of really cared about doing good and doing things differently. 52 00:04:55.941 --> 00:04:56.041 Yeah. 53 00:04:56.812 --> 00:05:03.498 And at some point you start having a conversation with him privately about launching a business, your own business, and then he's launching his business, right? 54 00:05:03.678 --> 00:05:04.238 Yeah. 55 00:05:04.299 --> 00:05:07.021 So I remember he suddenly left Indeed Labs. 56 00:05:07.361 --> 00:05:09.483 Now, Indeed Labs, he founded it. 57 00:05:09.603 --> 00:05:10.504 It was a rocket ship. 58 00:05:10.564 --> 00:05:12.005 It was kind of doing super well. 59 00:05:12.586 --> 00:05:18.391 I remember getting this message from him that he left and just being like shocked as in like, what has happened? 60 00:05:18.411 --> 00:05:19.352 Yeah. 61 00:05:20.719 --> 00:05:23.101 So then when he was next in London, I met up with him. 62 00:05:24.121 --> 00:05:26.403 And obviously he told me about his reasons for leaving. 63 00:05:26.743 --> 00:05:28.164 He was going to do this next thing. 64 00:05:28.644 --> 00:05:32.386 And I'd always kind of had this viewpoint of wanting to do my own business. 65 00:05:33.267 --> 00:05:39.751 And ever since I worked in beauty, I found that, you know, I always had friends, family, everyone asking what's the best mascara, what's the best foundation? 66 00:05:39.771 --> 00:05:45.314 And just how we'd go to TripAdvisor, you know, to look at kind of ratings and reviews for restaurants and hotels. 67 00:05:45.775 --> 00:05:48.897 I wanted to create the same thing for beauty that actually ranked the products. 68 00:05:49.717 --> 00:05:51.660 So I told Brandon my idea and said, I want to do this. 69 00:05:52.301 --> 00:05:53.042 Like, what do you think? 70 00:05:53.062 --> 00:05:54.003 Do you have any advice? 71 00:05:54.264 --> 00:05:58.670 And he told me he wanted to start something called Deciem, which was from the Latin word for the number 10. 72 00:05:59.230 --> 00:06:02.074 And it wasn't designed to be a beauty engineer at that time. 73 00:06:02.976 --> 00:06:04.538 There was a beauty concept, but there was a, 74 00:06:04.878 --> 00:06:21.436 technology concept there was a food concept so kind of just lots of different ideas generating but with this viewpoint of doing 10 things at once so we said why don't you come and help do desi in with me and i'll help do the the beauty we went on to call it beauty wise with you 75 00:06:22.637 --> 00:06:28.839 So then obviously I made the decision to leave Boots, which obviously I was at the age of 24, 23, 24. 76 00:06:28.859 --> 00:06:34.581 And I remember telling mum and everyone's like, oh, like you're in a really good business. 77 00:06:34.621 --> 00:06:37.142 You've got a good like you're already achieving things. 78 00:06:37.603 --> 00:06:40.163 But I just knew that I wasn't meant to be there forever. 79 00:06:40.524 --> 00:06:44.185 So I, yeah, I left 10 years ago and then it was the start of Desium. 80 00:06:45.182 --> 00:06:54.431 I've got to say this idea of doing 10 brands at once seems like it's counterintuitive to all anything you might read in a business book that speaks to the importance of focus. 81 00:06:55.572 --> 00:06:57.834 Was there any sense in that in your view? 82 00:06:58.114 --> 00:07:06.441 So in actually our office in Melbourne, we used to have on the wall focus is overrated because everyone does tell you not to do 10 things at once. 83 00:07:07.298 --> 00:07:10.880 And actually, there were so many benefits to doing 10 things at once. 84 00:07:11.300 --> 00:07:19.203 So first of all, was this viewpoint of trying to create this ecosystem of, you know, how do we have our own manufacturing, do our own comms in-house? 85 00:07:19.244 --> 00:07:26.647 Because, and again, it takes funds to set up that ecosystem, but also, you know, so many entrepreneurs which... 86 00:07:28.885 --> 00:07:32.809 I understand why they're in this situation, but so many entrepreneurs have to outsource everything. 87 00:07:32.829 --> 00:07:36.753 They go to the PR agency, they go to a lab, they go to someone to do your R&D. 88 00:07:37.313 --> 00:07:50.186 And then you're really just coordinating all of those efforts rather than, I mean, so it was a privilege we could build this whole ecosystem because then at the table, everyone sat there, everyone's generating ideas. 89 00:07:50.726 --> 00:07:53.148 And again, you know, if I think around like doing comms in-house, 90 00:07:53.849 --> 00:07:55.270 It's a lot for one brand to pay. 91 00:07:55.290 --> 00:07:59.674 But if you've got 10 brands, suddenly you can look at it as 10% of everyone's salary. 92 00:08:00.235 --> 00:08:05.239 If I'm flying to Australia to meet a buyer, well, do I want to present one brand or do I present 10 brands? 93 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:12.646 And also just this, you know, area of you don't know what's going to until if you're in consumer brand. 94 00:08:12.686 --> 00:08:12.786 Yeah. 95 00:08:13.727 --> 00:08:16.448 Until it starts selling, you don't really know what's going to be. 96 00:08:16.468 --> 00:08:19.589 You can do all the research and all the insights in the world. 97 00:08:20.130 --> 00:08:22.871 Until something gets traction, you don't really know what's going to work. 98 00:08:23.311 --> 00:08:26.752 So it also just set up this incredible structure that we could fail. 99 00:08:27.112 --> 00:08:28.353 We could keep trying things. 100 00:08:28.773 --> 00:08:33.555 We could fail relatively cheaply, quickly and kind of start the next thing. 101 00:08:33.815 --> 00:08:36.496 What's the downside, though, of doing 10 Brands? 102 00:08:36.871 --> 00:08:42.894 So I'd say the downside in the later years is because the ordinary has become such a huge success. 103 00:08:43.554 --> 00:08:52.898 When the ordinary took off, the other brands got pushed aside because it's very difficult if you have one brand that's really driving such a huge portion of your revenues. 104 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:57.641 When everyone is, you know, facing high workload that always gets prioritized. 105 00:08:58.121 --> 00:09:02.263 So then you end up ignoring the other brands versus if they had to dedicate a team in. 106 00:09:03.003 --> 00:09:06.804 It's something now we want to actually restart our incubator engine. 107 00:09:06.844 --> 00:09:10.884 And actually, the only way we can do that is by having a dedicated team to that. 108 00:09:10.904 --> 00:09:12.385 So there are downsides. 109 00:09:12.405 --> 00:09:21.306 I think the other thing that made a huge difference for us, because we didn't have much money as a startup and we obviously wanted to hire all of these people, we couldn't afford experience. 110 00:09:21.786 --> 00:09:29.188 So everyone who was hired was pretty much straight out of university, straight out of college, just applied for their first job. 111 00:09:30.228 --> 00:09:35.911 And actually that meant no one really had preconditioned ideas about the beauty industry, about the way things should be. 112 00:09:36.471 --> 00:09:40.894 Everyone was approaching it just with a, almost a very practical viewpoint. 113 00:09:41.934 --> 00:09:45.736 And I think that made a big difference too with actually this, how do we think differently? 114 00:09:45.796 --> 00:09:48.018 How do we do what others aren't doing? 115 00:09:48.538 --> 00:09:55.582 It was almost never something that had to be discussed because people hadn't worked for the other conglomerates for all the years. 116 00:09:57.874 --> 00:09:59.795 Soon after you become co-CEOs with Brandon. 117 00:10:00.255 --> 00:10:00.715 Yeah. 118 00:10:01.155 --> 00:10:08.757 I always think about co-founder relationships and people being yin and yang and what the kind of right balance is for co-founders. 119 00:10:09.357 --> 00:10:12.898 In your case, the way that you came together was quite unique. 120 00:10:12.938 --> 00:10:16.499 It wasn't necessarily, there wasn't an initial interest in being co-founders. 121 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:18.039 You were both gonna do two separate things. 122 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:19.740 You then kind of got drawn towards each other. 123 00:10:21.108 --> 00:10:24.972 If I put your personality on this side and Brandon's here, what are the differences? 124 00:10:25.713 --> 00:10:28.056 How are they complementary but also uncomplimentary? 125 00:10:28.937 --> 00:10:30.599 So Brandon was eccentric. 126 00:10:30.899 --> 00:10:32.360 Yeah, it sounds like it. 127 00:10:32.380 --> 00:10:36.225 He was, you know, I'd say we're both very passionate 128 00:10:37.620 --> 00:10:41.804 He was a lot more eccentric and I'm a lot more calm, I think would be a big difference. 129 00:10:42.344 --> 00:10:49.031 But I guess also from a skill set, you know, he was he was so into this like he was a genius when it came to science. 130 00:10:49.691 --> 00:10:52.053 And he was a tech person originally. 131 00:10:52.153 --> 00:10:55.416 So he came from things with a very he didn't understand gray. 132 00:10:55.557 --> 00:10:56.517 It was black and white. 133 00:10:57.018 --> 00:11:01.062 And actually, that was quite a good way to actually approach the science, I think, behind beauty products. 134 00:11:01.742 --> 00:11:04.744 And he was at time short tempered. 135 00:11:05.745 --> 00:11:10.968 I'd be the kind of smoothing things out and he would kind of be a little bit more hot headed. 136 00:11:11.028 --> 00:11:14.731 But again, I think it was, you know, a startup culture is not for everyone. 137 00:11:14.771 --> 00:11:17.473 But for me, those first few years were incredible. 138 00:11:18.313 --> 00:11:22.136 But he also just had this amazing way of making things fun. 139 00:11:22.997 --> 00:11:27.901 You know, like when we would plan trips to go on meetings, he would be prioritizing which restaurants we were going to. 140 00:11:28.141 --> 00:11:29.382 Where's got the best ice cream? 141 00:11:29.722 --> 00:11:30.923 What are we going to go and do here? 142 00:11:31.464 --> 00:11:34.046 And actually the work was something that came alongside it. 143 00:11:34.826 --> 00:11:37.989 He also had this, you know, he had this philosophy. 144 00:11:38.029 --> 00:11:39.370 He wanted to build a family. 145 00:11:39.390 --> 00:11:39.490 Yeah. 146 00:11:40.751 --> 00:11:43.533 He'd had, you know, a troubled upbringing. 147 00:11:44.414 --> 00:11:53.319 I think he'd always, you know, he'd actually had this pattern, I think, of always leaving a business when it kind of just went on the verge of success. 148 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:55.881 Desiem was his fourth business. 149 00:11:55.901 --> 00:12:00.384 He had a tech business and he had two beauty businesses, Uoko, then Indeed before Desiem. 150 00:12:01.985 --> 00:12:06.609 And each time what hurt him was actually leaving the relationships and the people behind. 151 00:12:07.289 --> 00:12:13.233 So his viewpoint of Decian was actually, how do we build a family, like a work family? 152 00:12:13.614 --> 00:12:16.876 But I think he, it was never work. 153 00:12:17.377 --> 00:12:23.401 And I think that's what so many of us felt weekends, evenings, like we wanted to be doing Decian because we were all friends. 154 00:12:23.461 --> 00:12:25.002 We were all eating together. 155 00:12:25.022 --> 00:12:27.144 We were going to Niagara Falls on the weekend. 156 00:12:27.164 --> 00:12:28.685 We were going to a theme park in Toronto. 157 00:12:28.705 --> 00:12:31.267 Like we were just having fun whilst we were doing everything. 158 00:12:32.928 --> 00:12:38.269 The part you said about he wanted to build a family because he had a sort of troubled upbringing. 159 00:12:38.589 --> 00:12:44.770 I'm trying to understand how his upbringing, you believe, shaped his perspective on how you assemble a company. 160 00:12:45.130 --> 00:12:52.012 It sounds there like he was building the family he might not have had, or there's clearly some attachment challenges there if he wants to sell the brands but not the people. 161 00:12:52.752 --> 00:12:57.172 And again, the heartbreak associated with leaving these companies was all about losing relationships. 162 00:12:57.192 --> 00:13:00.113 A lot of that speaks to something that must have happened earlier. 163 00:13:01.342 --> 00:13:07.536 Yeah, so I think it was around building a family of, he never wanted anyone to leave him. 164 00:13:08.458 --> 00:13:08.578 And 165 00:13:10.933 --> 00:13:14.276 He wanted Desiem to be a place of belonging. 166 00:13:14.836 --> 00:13:18.359 And actually, even now we have belonging as our kind of North Star. 167 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:23.744 The most important thing anyone in our team should feel is that they belong at Desiem. 168 00:13:24.645 --> 00:13:28.368 Whoever they are, whatever they believe in, there is a place for them at Desiem. 169 00:13:28.868 --> 00:13:31.551 And I think that really comes from this sense of family. 170 00:13:32.211 --> 00:13:32.752 And I think... 171 00:13:33.952 --> 00:13:49.770 And, you know, again, like I even look at my husband's world, I do think startups, because you're working in a very intense environment, it does build relationships far deeper than, well, I ever experienced at Bootson that I think would exist in corporates. 172 00:13:50.851 --> 00:13:52.513 So this sense of family, I think, you know, 173 00:13:54.208 --> 00:13:56.029 we would have taken a bullet for each other. 174 00:13:56.229 --> 00:14:02.931 And I think even now, like within Desi, we're 1500 people now, but we still have so many of those early team members. 175 00:14:02.951 --> 00:14:03.952 It sounds like a cult. 176 00:14:04.412 --> 00:14:06.553 It is, but actually a very happy one. 177 00:14:06.573 --> 00:14:07.913 You can't say that, yeah. 178 00:14:08.133 --> 00:14:11.254 This morning I did a talk and I said, listen, I'm gonna say something here, which might get me in trouble. 179 00:14:11.274 --> 00:14:13.735 I'm like, you've got to scale from a cult. 180 00:14:14.096 --> 00:14:16.476 I was like, I always have to disclaimer it and explain. 181 00:14:16.496 --> 00:14:19.478 Cults are really bad, of course, and you know, they manipulate people, but this is not what I mean. 182 00:14:19.518 --> 00:14:21.518 It's that sense of dedication. 183 00:14:21.538 --> 00:14:22.699 We're all in this together. 184 00:14:23.479 --> 00:14:31.129 inspirational founder, mission you all believe in, and you believe you're right, regardless of what the outside world says, you're on a mission, you're sleeping under the tape, you know? 185 00:14:31.430 --> 00:14:39.060 Yeah, well it's, they always say that, you know, you can, you can like complain about your parents, but if anyone else says a bad word about your parents, 186 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.661 Like, no, like, even if they're saying the same thing you've said. 187 00:14:42.221 --> 00:14:50.083 And Destian's like that, you know, like, you can come, like, internally, like, maybe there's not this process, but if anyone says a bad word, you come straight to the defense. 188 00:14:50.464 --> 00:14:52.844 But I think it was just so much love and passion. 189 00:14:52.884 --> 00:14:54.865 And again, Brandon cared for all of us. 190 00:14:54.905 --> 00:14:57.946 Like, he had so much love that you gave it back. 191 00:14:58.566 --> 00:15:04.328 And that's where it was so difficult, you know, when we went through the unthinkable and things became so difficult because… 192 00:15:05.288 --> 00:15:29.510 it wasn't a colleague, like you've just lived this incredible journey of us all traveling together, building something so special, like just this such a sense of we're all in this together, like even when times are hard, like we've got each other's backs and things may not work out, but actually let's just have fun, let's learn things and let's just keep trying, like let's never be afraid to fail and let's just do it together. 193 00:15:30.420 --> 00:15:34.564 People hear that and they see the outcome. 194 00:15:34.584 --> 00:15:36.306 So everything you've described there is the outcome. 195 00:15:36.326 --> 00:15:40.369 You've got this great culture, people are dedicated, they're loyal, they're on this mission. 196 00:15:41.482 --> 00:15:46.165 what people will be thinking, because they'll be sat in their offices now working somewhere, or they'll be building a company of their own. 197 00:15:46.285 --> 00:15:51.428 In fact, this young lady came up to me this morning and asked me this question when I was doing this talk. 198 00:15:51.448 --> 00:15:55.350 She said, I've got this small team and I'm trying to create exactly what you've described. 199 00:15:55.911 --> 00:16:00.833 That kind of real dedicated kind of cult-like company culture where everyone's in it. 200 00:16:03.015 --> 00:16:03.315 How? 201 00:16:05.545 --> 00:16:06.766 How does one create it? 202 00:16:06.826 --> 00:16:09.508 It's actually quite difficult to explain how it comes together. 203 00:16:09.948 --> 00:16:14.611 Because in many cases, from what I've observed, it's not necessarily intentional. 204 00:16:15.651 --> 00:16:16.412 I.e. 205 00:16:16.492 --> 00:16:21.855 it wasn't like a strategic, drawn up plan to make people really care. 206 00:16:21.935 --> 00:16:26.358 It was quite a natural thing that resulted in that sort of deep sense of care from the team members. 207 00:16:27.118 --> 00:16:31.681 I'll offer up one thing, which you said, which I thought was spot on, which people often overlook, which is fun. 208 00:16:32.322 --> 00:16:32.542 Yeah. 209 00:16:33.022 --> 00:16:35.868 People think of, you know, people think, well, we'll give perks and this. 210 00:16:36.149 --> 00:16:41.560 But it's all the things that happen outside of the work that seem to do most of the work in creating that cult. 211 00:16:42.331 --> 00:16:51.155 And you come up with the best ideas when you're doing something on the weekend and you're not in that kind of Monday to Friday, nine till five zone. 212 00:16:51.635 --> 00:16:53.696 That's when that creativity I think happens. 213 00:16:53.816 --> 00:17:01.400 And I think, you know, people spend so long in the workplace and that's why it's so important that actually people enjoy coming in. 214 00:17:02.280 --> 00:17:09.424 The one thing that I say like, it's definitely been like a purposeful shift is, I look back at early startup culture 215 00:17:10.164 --> 00:17:12.486 And I don't know if it's always kind. 216 00:17:13.146 --> 00:17:15.187 There's very high expectations. 217 00:17:15.688 --> 00:17:18.470 And again, if you're working, you know, I'm calm. 218 00:17:18.830 --> 00:17:22.653 Brandon is very high passion, high expectations. 219 00:17:23.213 --> 00:17:27.396 You know, there's this people feel like they need to work on the weekends and the evenings. 220 00:17:27.456 --> 00:17:28.937 And is that healthy? 221 00:17:29.237 --> 00:17:30.138 Even though actually... 222 00:17:31.402 --> 00:17:32.763 It's trying to get that balance. 223 00:17:32.983 --> 00:17:47.452 And I think it'd be interesting, you know, and again, with my husband, who's a different stage of startup, I always just find it interesting around like, I think especially in today's world, like we're so much more aware about mental health and burnout and actually how to be much more respectful of balance. 224 00:17:48.573 --> 00:17:59.856 Which I don't know if we necessarily had back then, but equally I feel like, again, we were pretty much a bunch of young 20 year olds with Brandon, you know, being a little bit older, who were all just happy and loved what we were doing. 225 00:17:59.956 --> 00:18:06.418 And when you start creating things and you start to see the results of your work, then that drives you even further. 226 00:18:06.438 --> 00:18:12.380 And then that makes it even more exciting because, you know, you can see what you're achieving is actually meaning something. 227 00:18:13.102 --> 00:18:25.169 Do you think you could have achieved the success with Deciem and The Ordinary and the other brands if you didn't have that lack of balance and early cult-like culture? 228 00:18:25.489 --> 00:18:25.669 No. 229 00:18:26.230 --> 00:18:30.812 And again, I think in the early days, everyone's around the same table. 230 00:18:31.252 --> 00:18:35.155 You've got Predvi, who's making formulations, Dion, who's doing comms and brand. 231 00:18:35.595 --> 00:18:38.797 Everyone's just there talking, coming up with ideas. 232 00:18:39.497 --> 00:18:42.760 And that collaboration is so special. 233 00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:46.163 And you're in WhatsApp groups and you're like, have you seen this? 234 00:18:46.183 --> 00:18:46.843 Let's do this. 235 00:18:47.424 --> 00:18:54.089 And also I think the other thing in the early days, being agile is so important and everyone was okay. 236 00:18:54.109 --> 00:19:02.076 You could work on something and the next day, there'd be a change of decision or someone had a different view and you're like, oh, actually let's go in that direction now. 237 00:19:02.576 --> 00:19:07.140 That gets harder I think as you get bigger and actually there are many more teams and there's more people involved. 238 00:19:08.357 --> 00:19:10.098 So that's interesting. 239 00:19:11.098 --> 00:19:14.419 I have to say, I agree with any business I've ever been in. 240 00:19:15.080 --> 00:19:22.823 I look back at those first 10, 20 people and the way they behaved, and that's ultimately what we scaled, but it's that energy enthusiasm that got us from like zero to one. 241 00:19:23.443 --> 00:19:35.808 Does that therefore mean that there's a certain type of person you should be looking to hire at that early phase that maybe can afford to have more of an unbalanced life? 242 00:19:39.505 --> 00:19:42.488 is you need someone who's prepared to wear every hat. 243 00:19:43.068 --> 00:19:45.251 So in our early days, we would say yes to it. 244 00:19:45.611 --> 00:19:47.733 Like, we'd get an order from Boos. 245 00:19:47.973 --> 00:19:52.017 If we didn't think we could fulfill it, we would say yes and we'd figure it out afterwards. 246 00:19:52.537 --> 00:19:54.700 And that would often mean, Brandon, myself, like... 247 00:19:55.320 --> 00:19:59.462 all of the whoever was working in the office at the time, we'd go and work in the factory. 248 00:19:59.742 --> 00:20:02.923 We would pull all nighters making the products. 249 00:20:02.963 --> 00:20:09.706 And back then, I can remember with hand chemistry, we had like a hand crimping machine that would be in, but it didn't seal that well. 250 00:20:09.926 --> 00:20:12.727 And about one in 10 actually exploded if you squeeze too hard. 251 00:20:12.747 --> 00:20:16.689 So we'd be like, no, like making them, squeezing them, like, okay, they can pass. 252 00:20:17.549 --> 00:20:22.393 So you have to have people that are prepared to get on production line, to pack the boxes. 253 00:20:22.433 --> 00:20:32.802 And again, like, you know, my even later on, like when it was, you know, times around November, Black Friday, which, you know, more recently we boycotted and we, well, we have Slovember our campaign. 254 00:20:33.242 --> 00:20:37.866 But those periods where it's busy, everyone gets into the warehouses and they help ship the products out. 255 00:20:38.387 --> 00:20:44.792 So I think the ability to wear whichever hat is needed for you at that moment is the most important skill set. 256 00:20:45.797 --> 00:20:48.318 What do you think of this concept of work-life balance? 257 00:20:49.278 --> 00:21:04.042 You know, I had someone on the podcast the other day, and it's called Alex Amozzi, and he was saying that he was like, people need to stop having a conversation around work-life balance, because it kind of assumes that there is such a thing as a universal balance that we should all be striking. 258 00:21:04.082 --> 00:21:06.703 Whereas as you described it, you were happy. 259 00:21:07.673 --> 00:21:12.380 And you, okay, your life might have been slightly one-dimensional, but you are happy. 260 00:21:12.520 --> 00:21:14.583 And surely that happiness is the most important thing. 261 00:21:14.603 --> 00:21:16.266 And Alex Homozi says, listen, I do two things. 262 00:21:16.566 --> 00:21:17.668 I work and I play video games. 263 00:21:17.948 --> 00:21:18.409 That's it. 264 00:21:19.010 --> 00:21:19.571 I know I'm happy. 265 00:21:19.631 --> 00:21:21.814 So stop telling me to do work-life balance. 266 00:21:21.994 --> 00:21:22.435 I'm happy. 267 00:21:22.735 --> 00:21:24.417 Yeah, 100% agree. 268 00:21:24.437 --> 00:21:28.260 And I think, you know, it comes down to what's the right balance to you. 269 00:21:28.820 --> 00:21:30.842 And it changes at different periods of your life. 270 00:21:31.283 --> 00:21:37.588 So I was in my 20s, I was fine on my maybe sacrifice nights out and kind of doing other things. 271 00:21:37.968 --> 00:21:44.814 But I was so happy being traveling all the time, being in this kind of desium bubble, creating all of this magic. 272 00:21:44.854 --> 00:21:44.955 Yeah. 273 00:21:45.635 --> 00:21:51.919 And to me, that's such a powerful concept around how do we achieve balance at different periods of your life? 274 00:21:52.379 --> 00:21:56.301 We're all going to have periods where we can be working every hour and we love it. 275 00:21:56.321 --> 00:21:59.563 And actually, it's our work, but also it's our hobby. 276 00:21:59.603 --> 00:22:01.964 It's our downtime because we just love it so much. 277 00:22:02.405 --> 00:22:07.548 Then you have another period of your life where, you know, maybe you have an elderly parent that needs your support. 278 00:22:07.568 --> 00:22:09.969 Maybe you're going through some challenges. 279 00:22:10.069 --> 00:22:11.190 You've got young children. 280 00:22:12.030 --> 00:22:15.412 How do we step up and support each other to say, you know what, I've got you here. 281 00:22:15.852 --> 00:22:16.652 You do this bit. 282 00:22:16.812 --> 00:22:21.234 I'll cover those bits for you because in another few years, maybe it switches around. 283 00:22:21.775 --> 00:22:26.477 And again, that's something that I think is so unique to when we say a family culture. 284 00:22:27.137 --> 00:22:30.879 That to me is an example of kindness that I think really actually demonstrates it. 285 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:34.864 There has been a debate, hasn't there, about the use of the word family in the corporate world. 286 00:22:34.924 --> 00:22:38.768 People think it means it kind of asserts that there's a lack of boundaries. 287 00:22:38.928 --> 00:22:43.432 And these are not, you know, Netflix's whole culture document, which is like, we're not a family, we're a high-performance team. 288 00:22:44.133 --> 00:22:48.077 And I think I have struggled to... 289 00:22:49.098 --> 00:22:50.418 figure out where I sit on it. 290 00:22:50.758 --> 00:22:54.579 Because there are many elements of the family culture that I always want in my businesses. 291 00:22:54.999 --> 00:23:02.561 That sort of care, that going above and beyond, the way, you know, a deeper sense of relationship that's non-transactional. 292 00:23:03.581 --> 00:23:07.642 And then also, on the other hand, you don't fire your family. 293 00:23:09.522 --> 00:23:14.223 You know, so what is that balance between family and high performance team? 294 00:23:14.955 --> 00:23:22.778 So for me, family is about belonging and everyone just really feeling like they have a safe place to be and that they are loved. 295 00:23:23.498 --> 00:23:27.040 I think kindness sometimes is mistaken for weakness. 296 00:23:27.700 --> 00:23:32.162 And also I think there's a conflict between the words being kind and being nice. 297 00:23:33.142 --> 00:23:36.987 Being nice is kind but can be superficial. 298 00:23:37.047 --> 00:23:39.491 You see a stranger on the street, you're like, hi, how are you? 299 00:23:39.511 --> 00:23:40.352 You open the door. 300 00:23:41.013 --> 00:23:43.556 It's nice, but do you truly mean like, how are you? 301 00:23:43.616 --> 00:23:44.898 Or are you just kind of passing it? 302 00:23:46.099 --> 00:23:51.847 If someone's not performing at work, it's not necessarily a nice thing to have that conversation with them. 303 00:23:52.588 --> 00:24:02.743 But it is the kind thing because if your intention is to help them and the help may be, this is maybe a different role that we see in the company, which we think you're more suited for. 304 00:24:03.223 --> 00:24:07.607 It may be that we think you need this coaching, this training to get to where you need to be. 305 00:24:08.167 --> 00:24:12.510 And it may be that, look, you're in this role, but we're not seeing the delivery here. 306 00:24:13.211 --> 00:24:15.913 We actually think the better option for you is outside. 307 00:24:15.953 --> 00:24:20.317 And now when we've done terminations, you know, we've done things around like, how do we do counselling? 308 00:24:20.337 --> 00:24:25.821 We're actually, it helps someone to look for another career, depending on kind of what role it is and the reasons why we're leaving. 309 00:24:26.542 --> 00:24:30.465 Because to me, then that's a kind of way we're actually trying to help that person. 310 00:24:31.185 --> 00:24:32.026 And the other thing, you know, 311 00:24:34.284 --> 00:24:38.907 Our business, we were like kind of this and we had a rocket ship kind of boomed. 312 00:24:38.927 --> 00:24:42.170 And then we came to a dim just after kind of COVID. 313 00:24:42.770 --> 00:24:47.613 It hit me when I realized if our numbers don't pick up again, we're going to have to let people go. 314 00:24:48.334 --> 00:24:51.336 Because actually that is the consequence of business. 315 00:24:51.376 --> 00:24:53.517 Like you're there to kind of, 316 00:24:54.538 --> 00:25:19.827 do many things but ultimately like one factor of that is is to be a business and to make money and if you start to not hit your numbers ultimately like you can't lose money for long people will start to say you have to save money where does that come from headcount and I think that then hit me again that okay we have to perform so to be kind to everyone we have to be a performing team so again I think you can be high performing 317 00:25:20.981 --> 00:25:34.186 But by being kind, I think you can make everyone feel safe and trusted that, again, if you have to make the hard decision, you're going to do it in the way to be as kind as possible and actually, you know, have the action to try and help. 318 00:25:34.786 --> 00:25:40.348 I heard you say something, which was that you're the least qualified CEO ever. 319 00:25:40.368 --> 00:25:41.168 Yeah. 320 00:25:42.230 --> 00:25:43.951 You don't sound like the least qualified CEO ever. 321 00:25:44.931 --> 00:25:46.071 I guess you've been through some shit. 322 00:25:48.292 --> 00:25:48.872 I definitely am. 323 00:25:48.892 --> 00:25:52.314 And again, you know, you have to, I was there from the beginning. 324 00:25:53.474 --> 00:26:02.137 And being someone who can, you know, play a leader for an organization of 10 people, 20 people, 100 people is a very different skill set. 325 00:26:03.101 --> 00:26:05.122 So, you know, we are 1500 people. 326 00:26:05.622 --> 00:26:10.365 We now have a majority ownership from SA Law to companies who are a public company. 327 00:26:11.285 --> 00:26:12.806 Our whole world has changed. 328 00:26:14.227 --> 00:26:20.530 And rightly so, because being a much bigger organization, we have to be far more organized and planning. 329 00:26:21.151 --> 00:26:23.812 And I wouldn't say those are necessarily my skill sets. 330 00:26:24.573 --> 00:26:31.977 And again, when, you know, the kind of dip I mentioned was a very difficult period because we'd just been on this rocket ship of, you know, 331 00:26:32.837 --> 00:26:39.383 Even when things were difficult, the one thing that always, we were always ahead of budget, targets, whatever anyone set for us. 332 00:26:39.883 --> 00:26:44.427 We always were just overachieving, which feels incredible when you're in business. 333 00:26:44.487 --> 00:26:47.509 Like if you hit numbers and everything else just falls into place. 334 00:26:48.630 --> 00:26:50.891 And I remember like, you lose confidence. 335 00:26:51.092 --> 00:26:57.755 And I remember actually saying to Stefan, who is, we were putting to it, ELC, who's like an incredible person. 336 00:26:58.416 --> 00:27:02.138 But each time when I used to say, oh, like, you know, this is not going right. 337 00:27:02.258 --> 00:27:04.960 And I said like, I'll resign, like I'm not the person. 338 00:27:06.140 --> 00:27:07.381 But dad was like, I need help. 339 00:27:07.401 --> 00:27:08.622 Like, I was like, I can't do this. 340 00:27:08.642 --> 00:27:10.483 Like, I'm not the CEO who, 341 00:27:11.805 --> 00:27:14.586 understands numbers in the right way, who plans, like I changed my mind. 342 00:27:14.606 --> 00:27:21.370 And again, like you think about all the things as a startup, you can do things quickly, you can change. 343 00:27:21.790 --> 00:27:30.775 If you change your mind on a decision, when you now have many more people working on it, you demotivate people, you become, chaos is fun in a startup. 344 00:27:31.475 --> 00:27:34.637 In a large organization, chaos can become demotivating. 345 00:27:36.297 --> 00:27:38.699 So then I was very fortunate that we did bring in 346 00:27:40.699 --> 00:27:44.722 a very incredible general manager who joined us about a year ago. 347 00:27:44.742 --> 00:27:52.748 And he has had such a transformation on the company because he can't believe just the basics we didn't have in place. 348 00:27:53.309 --> 00:28:07.540 And because we'd grown so quickly, and it's now to get that balance between, you know, there's areas we don't want any experience but decions when it comes to like brand and innovation, our values, things that we are so passionate about. 349 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:12.804 When it comes to supply chain and scaling and new markets, we need experience. 350 00:28:13.524 --> 00:28:26.795 So actually having the GM come in that actually could kind of take control of those and then actually allow me to focus on the areas which I'm much more passionate about, which is the brand area, our people, culture, belonging, social impact. 351 00:28:27.415 --> 00:28:29.457 It's just made a huge difference to the business. 352 00:28:29.877 --> 00:28:37.463 So two things there, you offering up your essentially resignation from your role when things were a little bit tricky 353 00:28:39.796 --> 00:28:41.097 It's giving me imposter syndrome. 354 00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:47.503 I like to think more just like a realist of- Have you ever had imposter syndrome? 355 00:28:48.824 --> 00:28:53.148 Because, you know, saying this quote here about being the least qualified CEO ever. 356 00:28:53.609 --> 00:28:55.110 From a traditional perspective. 357 00:28:55.511 --> 00:29:05.962 For example, if I went now to, you know, another company with revenues nearing a billion dollars a year with 1500 employees, I wouldn't be a good CEO. 358 00:29:06.442 --> 00:29:08.644 I think I could be a good people person. 359 00:29:08.684 --> 00:29:10.887 I think I could help on values, on brand. 360 00:29:12.023 --> 00:29:14.305 Now, obviously there's an argument of like a modern CEO. 361 00:29:14.345 --> 00:29:20.070 And I think especially for, there's no one more qualified for Deciem than me because of the history. 362 00:29:20.551 --> 00:29:23.694 But when I think about just the pure metrics and the size of the business, 363 00:29:25.425 --> 00:29:28.046 It needed someone with some more experience. 364 00:29:28.066 --> 00:29:34.728 And again, I'm a big believer on, you know, anyone who thinks they're the expert at everything, they're not. 365 00:29:35.449 --> 00:29:40.070 And I think I'm a good person at relationships and hopefully bringing people on for the journey. 366 00:29:40.130 --> 00:29:47.693 Hopefully people feeling how appreciative and truly grateful I am that they choose to kind of be a destiny and give their all every day. 367 00:29:48.473 --> 00:29:50.954 But there are many areas that I'm not good at all. 368 00:29:51.514 --> 00:29:54.996 And actually having trusted people to support that is amazing. 369 00:29:55.616 --> 00:30:03.279 And I always do think myself more, you know, it's kind of like the conductor of an orchestra, like being aware, except I'm not very organized. 370 00:30:03.459 --> 00:30:07.561 So the bigger you get, then suddenly you do need someone that maybe has got more technical skills. 371 00:30:08.092 --> 00:30:12.156 It's interesting because when I asked that question about the imposter syndrome thing, I immediately reflected upon it. 372 00:30:12.577 --> 00:30:18.824 And I thought, it's funny how imposter syndrome and self-awareness can sound very, very similar. 373 00:30:19.664 --> 00:30:25.110 And that's in fact, from speaking to some of your team, one of the things they repeatedly said to us was, 374 00:30:25.871 --> 00:30:27.672 was about your self-awareness. 375 00:30:27.812 --> 00:30:33.173 And I even reflect going back early to your time at Boots where you were considering, contemplating, becoming a buyer. 376 00:30:33.733 --> 00:30:38.875 And the first thing you're doing there is saying, does that suit my skillset and what makes me happy? 377 00:30:38.895 --> 00:30:40.195 I mean, your team said it. 378 00:30:40.215 --> 00:30:45.997 They said your quote is that she isn't afraid to tell you and she instinctively knows what her strengths and weaknesses are. 379 00:30:46.780 --> 00:30:48.901 But I think it's the only way to be authentic. 380 00:30:49.681 --> 00:30:56.064 You know, trying to be something that you're not or something that doesn't make you happy is not really good for anyone. 381 00:30:56.744 --> 00:31:04.728 And I actually think like authenticity in today's world, I think is a value that is one of the most important because otherwise you get cooled out. 382 00:31:05.288 --> 00:31:08.810 It'd be crazy for me to say that I'm good at the finance piece. 383 00:31:08.990 --> 00:31:12.752 I'm not, it's not a strength, but we have an incredible VP of finance. 384 00:31:12.772 --> 00:31:15.393 We've got incredible general manager that truly understands it. 385 00:31:15.993 --> 00:31:23.239 So I think actually just playing to your strengths and allowing others to play to their strengths is actually what brings the authenticity. 386 00:31:23.820 --> 00:31:24.861 I should probably read this. 387 00:31:25.301 --> 00:31:27.803 Your team said she delegates a lot and very well. 388 00:31:28.444 --> 00:31:31.626 She very instinctively knows her strengths and her weaknesses. 389 00:31:32.467 --> 00:31:35.770 She isn't afraid to bring on knowledge and talent for those weaknesses. 390 00:31:35.790 --> 00:31:36.030 She doesn't. 391 00:31:37.907 --> 00:31:40.329 Her team says she's incredibly self-aware. 392 00:31:40.810 --> 00:31:43.873 And also, she is literally a ray of sunshine. 393 00:31:44.854 --> 00:31:45.614 How much did you pay? 394 00:31:46.575 --> 00:31:48.357 Jenny in marketing, I'm joking. 395 00:31:48.918 --> 00:31:49.398 It was kind. 396 00:31:49.758 --> 00:31:54.343 This feels especially relevant this time of year, when work picks up and family routines start again. 397 00:31:54.583 --> 00:31:58.405 Wayfair Verified helps to take some of the uncertainty out of what to buy. 398 00:31:58.586 --> 00:32:05.750 It identifies products that have been vetted for quality alongside ratings from real customers, so you can make a more confident choice when life is busy. 399 00:32:05.910 --> 00:32:08.552 Go to wayfair.com to start your home refresh today. 400 00:32:09.092 --> 00:32:13.515 What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode. 401 00:32:13.655 --> 00:32:16.817 If you want to listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below. 402 00:32:16.997 --> 00:32:17.817 Check the description. 403 00:32:18.118 --> 00:32:18.458 Thank you.