WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.131 --> 00:00:07.395 If you want to grow something really cool and big, you should just resign to the fact that you're going to fail a lot along the way and that that's okay. 2 00:00:07.535 --> 00:00:08.816 Like that's part of the journey. 3 00:00:08.916 --> 00:00:10.217 I think it was Elon Musk recently. 4 00:00:10.257 --> 00:00:13.279 He just said, I think entrepreneurs, it's like just the highest pain tolerance. 5 00:00:13.319 --> 00:00:15.700 Like you just have a higher pain tolerance or something like that. 6 00:00:15.740 --> 00:00:16.661 Something to that effect. 7 00:00:16.801 --> 00:00:17.882 And I was like, it's so true. 8 00:00:18.842 --> 00:00:26.307 Welcome to Hitting the Ceiling, the show for entrepreneurs and leaders who refuse to let a ceiling become the end of their story. 9 00:00:27.425 --> 00:00:33.030 We start with the night in Florida when Shannon Badger and her husband, Jonathan, were barely speaking. 10 00:00:33.190 --> 00:00:44.259 They went to a movie so they could just not have to talk to each other, then sat on a park bench from about 9 p.m. to 2 a.m. deciding whether to quit the business or find a way forward. 11 00:00:44.559 --> 00:00:48.002 Shannon is not just the managing partner of a fast-growing CPA firm. 12 00:00:48.282 --> 00:00:54.888 She's the integrator in a husband and wife founder story where the company nearly became too expensive personally. 13 00:00:55.208 --> 00:01:11.820 Badger CPA began as a leap toward flexibility and meaningful work, then became a 65-person, $11 million firm serving small and mid-sized businesses through outsource accounting, fractional controllers, CFO, tax, compliance, and advisory services. 14 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.122 The real story is what growth exposed. 15 00:01:15.462 --> 00:01:24.249 Unclear founder roles, marriage strain, payroll pressure, bad fit revenue, and now a ceiling around systems, AI, and data hygiene. 16 00:01:25.110 --> 00:01:27.512 Shannon, welcome to Hitting the Ceiling Podcast. 17 00:01:27.812 --> 00:01:28.173 Awesome. 18 00:01:28.193 --> 00:01:29.053 Thank you for having me, Mark. 19 00:01:29.353 --> 00:01:30.134 Thanks for being here. 20 00:01:30.154 --> 00:01:36.659 So we're just going to dive right in because at EOS, we work with a lot of family businesses. 21 00:01:36.739 --> 00:01:39.762 There's a lot of husband and wife teams. 22 00:01:40.182 --> 00:01:50.250 When you think about your journey, what are some of the issues that you ran into trying to manage both sides of family life, of business life? 23 00:01:50.350 --> 00:01:52.572 And what were some of your discoveries through that journey? 24 00:01:52.756 --> 00:01:57.760 Well, I feel like when you first start a company, you're usually pretty good at doing a thing of some kind. 25 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:00.943 So you might be a really good electrician or plumber or accountant. 26 00:02:01.043 --> 00:02:07.148 And so you jump thinking that you have these skills and you're going to be able to build something really great with these skills that you have. 27 00:02:07.268 --> 00:02:09.230 And so I think the piece that entrepreneurs do 28 00:02:09.795 --> 00:02:19.419 aren't aware of is that in that first few years of business, there's, you know, 20 tools or skills that you really don't have that you have to learn really quickly. 29 00:02:19.839 --> 00:02:23.601 And so there's just a lot of failure and mistakes that happen. 30 00:02:23.681 --> 00:02:33.025 And so we were not equipped for hiring and firing and creating infrastructure and accountability and just all of these other things that they just weren't tools in our belt yet. 31 00:02:33.125 --> 00:02:35.566 And so it creates a lot of pain and a lot of stress. 32 00:02:35.766 --> 00:02:36.787 But I think that was the biggest 33 00:02:39.448 --> 00:02:42.951 as we went was just kind of how little we actually knew. 34 00:02:44.452 --> 00:02:44.712 Right. 35 00:02:45.192 --> 00:02:50.456 So you feel like you're kind of failing on a daily basis, which I think is just really difficult mentally. 36 00:02:50.496 --> 00:02:58.382 And then it puts a strain on marriage as well because you don't feel like you're winning in the business and it creates financial strain and relational strain and all these other things can come from it. 37 00:02:58.622 --> 00:03:03.786 Now, talk to me a little bit about failure generally because I tend to think that, 38 00:03:04.546 --> 00:03:18.092 The difference between entrepreneurs and really people who get what they want from their business, from their life, is the way they approach failure and risk, just generally speaking. 39 00:03:18.392 --> 00:03:24.055 What is your mindset around failure and how do you think it's different than other people? 40 00:03:24.315 --> 00:03:25.756 I think that's a great point. 41 00:03:26.156 --> 00:03:32.841 And we still joke all the time that the entrepreneurs that are still around are just people that were too stubborn to quit. 42 00:03:33.222 --> 00:03:43.289 Like you just have this ridiculous amount of resilience, for lack of a better word, and also just kind of that getting back up again that we all think about. 43 00:03:43.309 --> 00:03:46.191 It's like, when you fall, you should get back up again and over and over. 44 00:03:46.351 --> 00:03:50.695 And I really think that is a huge part of the entrepreneurial journey that a lot of people don't 45 00:03:51.435 --> 00:03:51.915 talk about. 46 00:03:52.015 --> 00:04:06.843 And so it's not meaning keep doing the same wrong things over and over again and not learning from your mistakes, but it's also how quickly you can digest a failure, learn from it and move forward and just doing that over and over for a long period of time. 47 00:04:07.003 --> 00:04:14.026 And so I think a lot of entrepreneurs just have this optimism that everything will get better and it's going to be awesome. 48 00:04:14.266 --> 00:04:19.169 And so I think you have to have this kind of optimistic, not really daunted by failure, right? 49 00:04:19.409 --> 00:04:21.870 And even now, like we have a failure, like, oh, that didn't go so well. 50 00:04:21.910 --> 00:04:22.610 And then we pivot. 51 00:04:22.730 --> 00:04:27.652 And so I think that memory of a goldfish, I think, from Ted Lasso, right? 52 00:04:27.692 --> 00:04:30.313 You just have to like learn what you can from it. 53 00:04:30.353 --> 00:04:32.734 Don't keep doing the wrong things over and over. 54 00:04:32.934 --> 00:04:40.918 But if you just sit with it and marinate in it and you can't move forward, you're just not going to be able to build and you're not going to be productive at that point. 55 00:04:40.998 --> 00:04:43.719 And so there's this like self-loathing thing. 56 00:04:44.739 --> 00:04:48.780 aspect of failure that you have to, I think, mentally move past. 57 00:04:49.080 --> 00:04:53.781 You can't sit around having a pity party because you have a team and other people that are counting on you. 58 00:04:53.901 --> 00:04:58.062 And I think your recovery time from failure gets better and better. 59 00:04:58.342 --> 00:05:01.143 I equate it to a professional athlete. 60 00:05:01.283 --> 00:05:07.304 You learn how to recover and you learn how to move past failures quicker once you're more experienced. 61 00:05:07.364 --> 00:05:09.345 And I think it's very similar in business. 62 00:05:09.365 --> 00:05:11.365 Your first two, three years for us, 63 00:05:14.646 --> 00:05:23.611 Lots of shame and other things that people don't talk about that come like feeling like you're not winning and it's embarrassing and all these other things that can come up. 64 00:05:23.671 --> 00:05:27.093 But then once you've been doing it a while, you're like, okay, it doesn't define me personally. 65 00:05:27.153 --> 00:05:29.875 Like, you know, I am who God says I am. 66 00:05:29.955 --> 00:05:33.377 Like, I'm not only defined by this business and how the business is doing. 67 00:05:33.677 --> 00:05:35.938 That doesn't mean I'm a bad person because I made a mistake. 68 00:05:35.998 --> 00:05:40.281 And so I think your recovery time just gets shorter over time as you get more reps. 69 00:05:40.656 --> 00:05:41.817 But yeah, the first few years are rough. 70 00:05:42.377 --> 00:05:43.518 People don't talk about that enough. 71 00:05:43.898 --> 00:05:45.319 It's like, first few years are tough. 72 00:05:45.859 --> 00:05:46.940 You know, that's normal. 73 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:49.901 It's like, I think somebody, if I just had someone tell me like, that's normal. 74 00:05:49.921 --> 00:05:52.443 Like that's sometimes that's all you need to hear is like, it's supposed to be hard. 75 00:05:52.463 --> 00:05:53.864 If it wasn't, everybody would do it. 76 00:05:54.124 --> 00:05:55.285 What do you think about 77 00:05:56.245 --> 00:05:59.247 You know, sticking with it in the face of that failure. 78 00:05:59.287 --> 00:06:00.247 Yes, it's hard. 79 00:06:00.868 --> 00:06:03.189 You talk about some shame there. 80 00:06:03.209 --> 00:06:14.015 I have to imagine feelings of inadequacy and just not having the necessary tools to break through the ceiling to get to where you want to go. 81 00:06:14.335 --> 00:06:22.459 What makes a person able to weather that storm and turn that failure into something positive? 82 00:06:22.599 --> 00:06:25.481 Because it either drives you or it demoralizes you, I think. 83 00:06:26.016 --> 00:06:28.518 I don't have like a, probably a singular answer. 84 00:06:28.538 --> 00:06:43.047 I think it's a combo of things, but I do think there's a faith aspect and a journey of that around just prayer and really praying for clarity and vision because I have seen entrepreneurs where the right decision might be to quit and to stop. 85 00:06:43.388 --> 00:06:52.834 Maybe the business is putting their family at too much financial risk and strain and they're not able to like overcome some of these things where they're needing to pray about some really hard decisions. 86 00:06:54.229 --> 00:07:00.593 So I think part of it is just like a faith and trying to pray around wisdom and what's the next right step. 87 00:07:00.793 --> 00:07:06.617 But then I also think surrounding yourself with mentors or coaches and community is a huge thing. 88 00:07:07.636 --> 00:07:11.618 part of that as well, because it can be really isolating running a company. 89 00:07:11.718 --> 00:07:17.221 I was fortunate that I had my husband where we were doing it together, which was a gift. 90 00:07:18.101 --> 00:07:20.022 But a lot of entrepreneurs, they start by themselves. 91 00:07:20.142 --> 00:07:26.445 And yes, you have a team, but a lot of that weight in the water is like, you're still carrying a lot of it and it can be really isolating. 92 00:07:26.565 --> 00:07:27.266 And so I think... 93 00:07:27.966 --> 00:07:35.469 Joining peer groups, other business groups where you can be around like-minded people that can encourage and support, I think is also really important. 94 00:07:35.549 --> 00:07:37.110 And just finding mentors. 95 00:07:37.290 --> 00:07:42.532 There are so many people out there that are more experienced than us, that are more experienced than everybody that starts. 96 00:07:42.612 --> 00:07:43.632 It's like, go find them. 97 00:07:43.712 --> 00:07:50.855 A lot of women that I met through this business organization called NABO, two of them had been running CPA firms for 20 years. 98 00:07:50.935 --> 00:07:53.436 So it's like, I latched onto them like white on bright. 99 00:07:53.496 --> 00:07:55.557 I was like, can I take you to coffee? 100 00:07:55.597 --> 00:07:55.977 Can I... 101 00:07:56.377 --> 00:07:57.819 Can I take you to lunch? 102 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:08.871 And just trying to find those relationships because a lot of entrepreneurs are really happy to spend that time and to like share and encourage and give you those tools and give you feedback. 103 00:08:08.951 --> 00:08:15.338 So I think part of it is just surrounding yourself with the right people and then also kind of praying for wisdom on what your next steps should be. 104 00:08:15.558 --> 00:08:18.141 There's a lot in there to sort of unpack. 105 00:08:18.201 --> 00:08:28.151 And the first thing that comes to mind for me, reflecting on your journey, is a friend of mine, Jonathan Smith, EOS implementer. 106 00:08:28.591 --> 00:08:31.354 He wrote a book called Optimize for Growth. 107 00:08:31.394 --> 00:08:33.116 It's been rewritten since then. 108 00:08:33.136 --> 00:08:35.979 But the Optimize for Growth model is... 109 00:08:36.339 --> 00:08:43.045 is that in order to grow in scale yourself as a human or as an entrepreneur, you need three things. 110 00:08:43.105 --> 00:08:45.147 You need an operating system. 111 00:08:45.247 --> 00:08:50.572 There's a way of being, a way of doing, that is consistent, that compounds over time. 112 00:08:50.592 --> 00:08:51.893 So you need an operating system. 113 00:08:52.514 --> 00:09:03.937 The second thing that you need is a peer group, a group of people who are on the journey, either maybe they're one or two chapters ahead of where you are, but you're sharing ideas. 114 00:09:03.957 --> 00:09:11.218 You're coming together on a regular basis to pick each other up, and you're just going through this learning process together with a peer group. 115 00:09:11.678 --> 00:09:13.379 And then the third thing is a coach. 116 00:09:15.099 --> 00:09:24.352 Someone to challenge you, to hold you accountable, to give you some insights into yourself to hold up that mirror when necessary. 117 00:09:25.093 --> 00:09:32.103 And I'm curious when you think about those three things, how have those helped your journey? 118 00:09:32.643 --> 00:09:35.265 break through the ceiling, which the ceiling is inevitable, right? 119 00:09:35.285 --> 00:09:37.286 You're going to come to those points of frustration. 120 00:09:37.306 --> 00:09:39.767 You're going to fail over and over and over again. 121 00:09:39.827 --> 00:09:43.189 As you said, you're just getting faster at recovery. 122 00:09:43.249 --> 00:09:49.272 You're getting faster at learning from that, recognizing that that failure is not permanent. 123 00:09:49.612 --> 00:09:53.074 It's not, you know, sometimes it doesn't even phase you. 124 00:09:53.134 --> 00:09:56.736 And other people are like, you should be rocking back and forth in a corner right now. 125 00:09:56.776 --> 00:09:58.937 But instead you're like, man, okay, that's no problem. 126 00:09:58.977 --> 00:09:59.478 What did we learn? 127 00:09:59.498 --> 00:09:59.798 Let's go. 128 00:09:59.838 --> 00:10:00.598 So I'd love to hear your 129 00:10:01.999 --> 00:10:06.282 And I haven't heard it put like in those three, but I think that's really spot on. 130 00:10:06.442 --> 00:10:13.146 And early on in the business, so we were pretty good about finding peer groups and mentors or coaches really quick. 131 00:10:13.266 --> 00:10:18.109 And so I think that's something that we did do well was we kind of immediately joined peer groups. 132 00:10:18.249 --> 00:10:21.331 We immediately had kind of the facilitators, coaches for those peer groups. 133 00:10:21.851 --> 00:10:25.514 And then one thing that was hugely helpful was we engaged in like a CPA firm, a CPA firm, 134 00:10:26.134 --> 00:10:47.883 coach program when we were about three years in and we were in that program for a couple of years and that really helped John and I calibrate around kind of vision execution what are the priorities things like that and so it was me Jonathan and then our third partner who's our COO now who's wonderful Crystal and the three of us would go every quarter and just say okay like what are we what are we focused on this quarter and so 135 00:10:48.663 --> 00:10:59.752 It wasn't EOS at the time, but it was starting to bring in some kind of strategic planning and prioritizing because we were definitely in the like shiny object syndrome a little bit. 136 00:11:00.112 --> 00:11:01.393 Everything felt like a fire. 137 00:11:01.514 --> 00:11:05.136 So it was really hard to calibrate around what's really the priority for the quarter. 138 00:11:05.156 --> 00:11:05.637 Yeah. 139 00:11:05.977 --> 00:11:10.619 And my husband being a visionary, it was really helpful to commit to like, these are the things we're focused on. 140 00:11:10.719 --> 00:11:12.660 And so we're not shifting. 141 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:15.541 And it gave us a framework for prioritizing and communicating. 142 00:11:15.561 --> 00:11:16.341 So it was really helpful. 143 00:11:16.741 --> 00:11:21.303 But around year four or five, it was working. 144 00:11:21.583 --> 00:11:30.546 But what was not working was the internal accountability side around team members and roles and responsibilities and scorecards and things like that. 145 00:11:31.146 --> 00:11:32.327 And I remember... 146 00:11:33.187 --> 00:11:38.552 very vividly just being like, there's not like an out of the box operating system. 147 00:11:38.612 --> 00:11:46.379 Like I'd not heard of EOS, but it was like really the challenge that we're having is we don't have a system and a structure that we're operating from. 148 00:11:47.220 --> 00:11:50.083 And it was like, I was trying to figure out what the issue was. 149 00:11:50.163 --> 00:11:54.567 It was like, we don't have a framework for these things and we don't have scorecards. 150 00:11:54.607 --> 00:11:54.647 We 151 00:11:56.028 --> 00:11:56.849 expectations. 152 00:11:56.869 --> 00:11:59.410 Like we have job descriptions, but not quite the same thing. 153 00:11:59.450 --> 00:12:08.277 And so when I was introduced to EOS, I felt like that was a big light bulb moment because it was like, oh my gosh, this is exactly what we've been looking for. 154 00:12:08.597 --> 00:12:12.519 And so it creates a very basic framework that you can start. 155 00:12:12.820 --> 00:12:14.021 And I say basic because... 156 00:12:14.821 --> 00:12:17.142 it can stay with you as your business gets more complicated. 157 00:12:17.182 --> 00:12:21.103 But what I love about it is even if your business is small, the concepts are still valid. 158 00:12:21.123 --> 00:12:21.723 They're still true. 159 00:12:22.303 --> 00:12:27.244 And it was funny because very typical visionary integrator, I really like the traction book. 160 00:12:27.304 --> 00:12:28.385 It's like, this is a textbook. 161 00:12:28.425 --> 00:12:29.825 This is how we're executing this thing. 162 00:12:30.285 --> 00:12:34.466 And my husband liked the get a grip where it was like the fable and like the story. 163 00:12:34.486 --> 00:12:36.527 And he starts reading the story of the get a grip book. 164 00:12:36.547 --> 00:12:38.207 And he's like, oh my gosh, that's us. 165 00:12:39.127 --> 00:12:40.828 It's like the very beginning when they're like... 166 00:12:41.588 --> 00:12:42.308 Totally added. 167 00:12:42.328 --> 00:12:46.010 And I think it has the guy comes in the room is like, let's just blow it up and start over. 168 00:12:46.090 --> 00:12:48.892 And his business partner is like, what are you talking about? 169 00:12:48.972 --> 00:12:53.474 And we're laughing because even the way in which it was clicking for us. 170 00:12:53.494 --> 00:12:55.095 So we wanted to do that system was different. 171 00:12:55.115 --> 00:12:58.197 Like, once we committed to that, and we started implementing it, 172 00:12:59.218 --> 00:12:59.939 it was huge for us. 173 00:13:00.259 --> 00:13:07.449 And I do think it kind of, it gets harder maybe in the first year when you're truly implementing because it roots out a lot of problems. 174 00:13:07.509 --> 00:13:12.696 And so some people, you know, I've heard feedback on, well, I implemented EOS and everything felt like it kind of got worse. 175 00:13:12.716 --> 00:13:14.919 And I'm like, well, yeah, because you're bringing in 176 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.601 structure, accountability, expectations, all these things. 177 00:13:18.661 --> 00:13:26.224 And it really forces you to deal with team members that are in the wrong seats, people that shouldn't be on your bus at all, things that are vague and don't make any sense. 178 00:13:26.324 --> 00:13:31.485 And so I think it forces, it kind of roots out, you know, let's say 30 issues right out of the gate. 179 00:13:31.505 --> 00:13:34.306 And you're just like, oh my gosh, like, I feel like my life got harder. 180 00:13:34.866 --> 00:13:39.188 But it really is just forcing you to address and deal with the things that... 181 00:13:39.648 --> 00:13:40.628 that you couldn't see before. 182 00:13:40.708 --> 00:13:41.809 And so for us, it's been huge. 183 00:13:41.829 --> 00:13:44.209 We've been on it, I think, for around eight years now. 184 00:13:44.810 --> 00:13:47.531 And one thing that's really exciting is like, my husband was visionary. 185 00:13:47.591 --> 00:13:48.371 I was an integrator. 186 00:13:48.751 --> 00:13:51.592 We had a crystal, our third partner, head of client service. 187 00:13:51.952 --> 00:13:54.873 Like, so everything that touches clients is under her purview, which is a lot. 188 00:13:55.393 --> 00:14:00.734 And so right now I have head of client service and I have a controller, HR, sales, marketing, and IT under me. 189 00:14:01.115 --> 00:14:08.717 And so we're actually working through like now our roadmap to move her into a full integrator position, which I think is going to be awesome. 190 00:14:08.857 --> 00:14:10.037 Because she's truly gifted. 191 00:14:10.117 --> 00:14:12.738 Like she is an integrator, like in her wiring. 192 00:14:13.278 --> 00:14:17.539 John and I joke that I was an integrator because I was just like less bad at it than him. 193 00:14:18.179 --> 00:14:21.062 We're both, I think, have more of a visionary bent. 194 00:14:21.402 --> 00:14:28.788 And so like, we're really excited about that because, you know, five years ago, I wouldn't have thought we would have grown to this size or made that shift. 195 00:14:28.828 --> 00:14:33.372 But now we're working through like a, you know, nine month kind of a plan to start making those changes. 196 00:14:33.392 --> 00:14:34.393 And I think it's going to be awesome. 197 00:14:34.513 --> 00:14:45.362 It's interesting because I think that most people don't recognize that some of the best companies in the world have an intentional process around succession planning. 198 00:14:45.827 --> 00:14:48.849 And it's often put off to the side. 199 00:14:49.409 --> 00:14:55.773 People, CEOs, visionaries, integrators, presidents, they just don't want to talk about it. 200 00:14:56.714 --> 00:15:03.558 And it can kind of strike fear into the teams like, oh, you know, the owner is going to leave, we're going to be sold off. 201 00:15:03.658 --> 00:15:08.842 The most successful businesses, those that have 100 year thinking, they're going to be 202 00:15:09.482 --> 00:15:11.683 they're always thinking about succession planning. 203 00:15:11.703 --> 00:15:17.286 So what you're describing there, at least to me, is an intentional process of succession planning. 204 00:15:17.867 --> 00:15:33.175 And I think it's even more important as a family-run business, not always the next generation wants to take over the firm, not always someone in there is an obvious choice for the next layer of success. 205 00:15:33.355 --> 00:15:33.875 leadership. 206 00:15:34.275 --> 00:15:41.437 But it's an important thing because then you're preparing the business, you're structuring the business to be handed off, whether you do or don't is kind of irrelevant. 207 00:15:41.537 --> 00:15:41.777 Yeah. 208 00:15:42.198 --> 00:15:52.481 Well, I think it's difficult when you're an entrepreneur or founder, I will say a lot of your life satisfaction and worth and value can come from like what you're doing on a daily basis in your company. 209 00:15:52.641 --> 00:16:00.583 And so I think it's a really challenging needle to thread in the sense of like, it brings me a lot of purpose, like doing all these things that 210 00:16:00.743 --> 00:16:04.226 But it also might not be what's best for my company is like me doing all these things. 211 00:16:04.506 --> 00:16:12.892 And so I think that's something that I'm always kind of recalibrating around is, you know, what am I working on that my team is really capable of working on? 212 00:16:12.932 --> 00:16:16.975 But I think if we're not careful, like our own refusal to let things go can really... 213 00:16:18.216 --> 00:16:19.937 keep our team from developing and growing. 214 00:16:20.517 --> 00:16:21.878 And that's not really fair to them. 215 00:16:22.098 --> 00:16:30.682 And so as your team is growing and their skills are increasing, if the founder owner is very dead set on like, well, I'm going to keep all these things forever. 216 00:16:30.702 --> 00:16:34.944 Well, at some point, they're like, well, I would like more leadership responsibilities. 217 00:16:34.984 --> 00:16:36.024 I would like to do other things. 218 00:16:36.084 --> 00:16:41.287 And so I think something my husband and I have been talking about, because as we are making these shifts, he's 219 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:44.921 And kind of like, okay, well, what am I doing on a daily basis? 220 00:16:44.981 --> 00:16:46.301 And like, what does that look like for us? 221 00:16:46.381 --> 00:16:52.902 And so we have been trying to recalibrate our vision because our kind of our big hairy goal was to get to 10 million. 222 00:16:52.922 --> 00:16:55.783 And then once we got there, we were like, oh, well, now what are we doing? 223 00:16:55.823 --> 00:17:01.304 And for us, like the revenue number isn't super motivating because it's not really about just being bigger. 224 00:17:01.424 --> 00:17:03.625 I think it's about a quality of work. 225 00:17:04.133 --> 00:17:08.683 and standard of service that we're able to provide clients and then also the environment that we're creating for our people. 226 00:17:09.204 --> 00:17:12.351 And so we've struggled a little with EOS as like, 227 00:17:13.425 --> 00:17:20.068 How can we create a really clear vision for trying to make this a really great place to work where people can develop and serve wonderful clients? 228 00:17:20.088 --> 00:17:24.550 And then we're also like constantly elevating our client service and making it better and better. 229 00:17:24.610 --> 00:17:30.032 And so we sort of settled on this, like we really want to just run a world-class organization. 230 00:17:30.132 --> 00:17:32.593 We think the size is kind of irrelevant. 231 00:17:32.673 --> 00:17:35.294 The market will demand that you grow if you're providing a great service. 232 00:17:35.334 --> 00:17:39.096 Like I think the growth will come from it, but that's not what we really want to be doing. 233 00:17:39.536 --> 00:17:40.197 like the goal. 234 00:17:40.357 --> 00:17:41.658 The goal is not to just be bigger. 235 00:17:42.098 --> 00:17:45.600 It's to just provide world-class service to like our team and our clients. 236 00:17:45.820 --> 00:17:48.542 But John and I now we're like, oh, like maybe, maybe we'll start a podcast. 237 00:17:48.582 --> 00:17:51.564 Maybe we, maybe we'll go start acquiring some other firms. 238 00:17:51.604 --> 00:17:57.388 And so trying to kind of even reignite our own vision of, well, what is, what is next? 239 00:17:57.448 --> 00:17:58.689 And I, and I think that is kind of hard. 240 00:17:58.709 --> 00:18:03.413 It's like, once you've been chasing a goal and then you obtain it, you're kind of like, well, like we never thought we would be here. 241 00:18:04.153 --> 00:18:06.335 Like when we first start, we did not buy an existing firm. 242 00:18:06.355 --> 00:18:08.597 So I mean, we literally grew it from zero revenue all the way. 243 00:18:08.737 --> 00:18:14.082 And so we would have never thought we would have 60 team members and be the size that we're at now. 244 00:18:14.182 --> 00:18:21.930 It's like been really cool because you're just executing your basics very consistently for a very long period of time. 245 00:18:22.590 --> 00:18:27.896 And now that we've been doing it about 14 years, you start to see just a lot of fruit from that. 246 00:18:28.016 --> 00:18:30.559 But it's really just been consistent behavior over a long period of time. 247 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:35.684 It's like not been heroic efforts or anything, you know, especially mind-blowing. 248 00:18:35.884 --> 00:18:37.746 And so I do think succession planning is important. 249 00:18:37.766 --> 00:18:39.789 It's something that we work with our clients on is... 250 00:18:40.369 --> 00:18:41.991 If something happens to you, then what? 251 00:18:42.711 --> 00:18:45.774 And that's a question that CPAs should be asking their clients. 252 00:18:46.294 --> 00:18:48.656 A lot of the time, nobody's having those conversations with them. 253 00:18:48.776 --> 00:18:52.339 But it's like, if something happens to you, what's going to happen to that business? 254 00:18:52.579 --> 00:18:54.981 And for a lot of people, that business is their... 255 00:18:55.802 --> 00:18:56.603 largest asset. 256 00:18:56.683 --> 00:18:58.204 It's their family's largest asset. 257 00:18:58.224 --> 00:19:09.652 And it's where most of their net worth and their value is, is in that company, which is a very illiquid asset, which means you have to take care of it and you have to be able to transfer and transition it appropriately. 258 00:19:10.113 --> 00:19:14.316 And so we want to know, okay, if something happens to dad, what's going to happen to the company? 259 00:19:14.436 --> 00:19:15.657 Does mom want to run it? 260 00:19:16.137 --> 00:19:18.919 Do we have a COO or someone that can step into that? 261 00:19:18.979 --> 00:19:22.302 And how do we get all that documented in kind of a succession plan if something happens? 262 00:19:22.782 --> 00:19:24.704 There was an entrepreneur recently in Austin. 263 00:19:24.744 --> 00:19:28.626 It was really sad, but he passed away in a car accident, excuse me, an airplane crash. 264 00:19:28.747 --> 00:19:30.208 And it was just devastating. 265 00:19:30.248 --> 00:19:33.410 And, but it's like, I wonder, you know, well, what happens to his companies? 266 00:19:33.470 --> 00:19:34.931 What happens to his employees? 267 00:19:34.991 --> 00:19:40.955 And so from a very practical matter of just like keeping your affairs in line, I think succession planning is really important. 268 00:19:40.995 --> 00:19:43.717 And, and I feel very confident because we have done all that work. 269 00:19:43.737 --> 00:19:50.062 Like if something happens to us, like there's very clear instructions on what goes to Crystal, how it happens, like how she takes over. 270 00:19:50.542 --> 00:19:52.524 And all of that mechanism, it's all in place. 271 00:19:52.604 --> 00:19:56.247 And so I think we owe it to our family and to our team to have all that sorted. 272 00:19:56.588 --> 00:20:09.399 The term failure, just generally speaking, most people, when you say, oh, that failed, they almost put this permanent connotation to it where it's not reversible. 273 00:20:09.579 --> 00:20:12.442 Do you think that's the right term for people to be using? 274 00:20:12.914 --> 00:20:13.334 I don't know. 275 00:20:13.454 --> 00:20:16.515 I think we attach a lot of things to the word failure. 276 00:20:17.055 --> 00:20:18.935 And like you said, kind of this permanency. 277 00:20:19.095 --> 00:20:23.776 But I mean, a more appropriate word is probably just a learning or like a setback. 278 00:20:24.296 --> 00:20:38.979 Because if you're trying to do really great things, and I try to explain this to my kids, I'm like, if you live a very safe life, and you just do the very safe things, there's kind of this line and you kind of are just choosing to stay below this line because it's a safer place to operate in. 279 00:20:39.557 --> 00:20:43.520 which means you probably make less mistakes because you're only doing things you know how to do. 280 00:20:43.760 --> 00:20:47.603 You're probably meeting less people because you're not putting yourself out there. 281 00:20:47.623 --> 00:20:49.364 You're probably in a very safe job. 282 00:20:49.384 --> 00:20:54.508 You're maybe not finding new opportunities and other things because it's just a safer way to live. 283 00:20:54.548 --> 00:20:58.571 And you will fail less in theory, I think, if you choose to live that way. 284 00:20:59.540 --> 00:21:17.144 But if you want to really live life big and, and on the assumption that God has this really big, cool plan for you with your faith and that you have the ability to like have a big God-sized vision, you are going to have these layers, you know, it's like rungs on a ladder. 285 00:21:17.204 --> 00:21:23.766 It's like, you're going to fail so much and then you're going to learn and then you're going to fail more going to the next level and learn. 286 00:21:23.966 --> 00:21:28.367 It's like, if I was trying to run a firm 10 times our size now, like I don't have those 287 00:21:29.767 --> 00:21:32.729 now, but I do have skills now to run a $10 million firm. 288 00:21:33.049 --> 00:21:38.833 But if we chose to grow to 20, like I'm going to have all these learnings and failures probably along the way to even get to there. 289 00:21:38.893 --> 00:21:42.035 Cause those are just new skills I'm going to have to acquire and I'm going to have to learn. 290 00:21:42.055 --> 00:21:46.838 And the reality is that as you're learning them, you're going to make mistakes because you don't know how to do it yet. 291 00:21:47.038 --> 00:21:47.819 And so I don't know. 292 00:21:47.939 --> 00:21:54.123 And not to use a sports analogy also again, but it's also, you know, if you're, if you're shooting basketball, like the only way 293 00:21:59.186 --> 00:22:04.913 And your percentage goes up over time, but you miss a lot of shots, like a lot. 294 00:22:05.093 --> 00:22:06.795 You know, I try to encourage my kids, like take risks. 295 00:22:06.815 --> 00:22:13.742 Like there's so few doors in life that if you walk through the wrong one, you can't just like walk back through and like make a different decision. 296 00:22:13.963 --> 00:22:16.846 And God goes with you through all those doors. 297 00:22:16.906 --> 00:22:17.106 Like 298 00:22:18.187 --> 00:22:25.088 If you have two jobs to pick from, as an example, it's not like God goes with you through one door and there's like an option A and option B. 299 00:22:25.128 --> 00:22:31.550 And if you make a mistake, your whole life is going to fall out and you're going to truly like God goes with you through. 300 00:22:31.570 --> 00:22:36.231 So if you don't overthink it, sometimes it's like, I'm just going to faithfully make a decision. 301 00:22:36.251 --> 00:22:37.171 I'm going to move forward. 302 00:22:37.231 --> 00:22:39.331 If it's not the right thing, I'll just pivot. 303 00:22:39.651 --> 00:22:41.552 We joke a lot about is the friends episode. 304 00:22:41.572 --> 00:22:42.012 That's like, 305 00:22:42.252 --> 00:22:43.634 We pivot very fast. 306 00:22:43.674 --> 00:22:46.798 In our organization, we implement things very quickly and we pivot quickly. 307 00:22:46.858 --> 00:22:50.203 Like if we're trying something and it does not work, we move on from it. 308 00:22:50.283 --> 00:22:55.129 And we are not married to like sticking to old ways of doing things that are no longer serving us. 309 00:22:55.450 --> 00:22:57.092 And I think that's just over time, 310 00:22:57.853 --> 00:22:59.916 you have to be okay with like, oh, that didn't work so well. 311 00:22:59.976 --> 00:23:01.118 Like I'm moving on to the next thing. 312 00:23:01.158 --> 00:23:03.200 That doesn't mean that I'm, doesn't mean I'm dumb. 313 00:23:03.220 --> 00:23:04.442 It doesn't mean I'm not good willed. 314 00:23:04.482 --> 00:23:06.585 It doesn't mean that I'm not a capable person. 315 00:23:06.685 --> 00:23:10.130 It just means that we made the best decision, what we thought was right and it wasn't. 316 00:23:10.150 --> 00:23:12.132 And now we're gonna do something different. 317 00:23:12.273 --> 00:23:13.895 And so I just think you have to over time 318 00:23:14.856 --> 00:23:15.957 develop that mentality. 319 00:23:16.337 --> 00:23:23.763 But if you want to grow something really cool and big, you should just resign to the fact that you're going to fail a lot along the way and that that's okay. 320 00:23:24.163 --> 00:23:25.444 Like that's part of the journey. 321 00:23:26.025 --> 00:23:27.666 And I think it was Elon Musk recently. 322 00:23:27.706 --> 00:23:30.748 He just said, I think entrepreneurs, it's like just the highest pain tolerance. 323 00:23:30.788 --> 00:23:33.150 Like you just have a higher pain tolerance or something like that. 324 00:23:33.210 --> 00:23:34.131 Something to that effect. 325 00:23:34.511 --> 00:23:35.452 And I was like, it's so true. 326 00:23:35.872 --> 00:23:38.315 And now everything runs really well. 327 00:23:38.356 --> 00:23:41.159 And I think sometimes we're almost like, everything's kind of running so good. 328 00:23:41.179 --> 00:23:45.765 It seemed, it almost feels like we're not striving enough to, 329 00:23:46.633 --> 00:23:48.674 because the business now is very stable. 330 00:23:48.734 --> 00:23:55.078 Like we're kind of past our teenager mode and we're into this more stable growth, systematized thing. 331 00:23:55.719 --> 00:23:59.221 And we almost don't know how to operate in that because we're so used to chaos for so long. 332 00:23:59.241 --> 00:24:01.603 We're like, oh my gosh, like things are predictable. 333 00:24:01.643 --> 00:24:02.703 We're hitting our scorecards. 334 00:24:02.743 --> 00:24:04.244 We know like what our forecast is. 335 00:24:04.284 --> 00:24:05.105 We know what's happening. 336 00:24:05.125 --> 00:24:06.806 We don't have a lot of surprises anymore. 337 00:24:07.346 --> 00:24:10.008 But I mean, that's been a lot of work over a lot of time to build that. 338 00:24:10.348 --> 00:24:13.531 So I think my husband, the visionary now is like, what's the new messy thing that we're going to do? 339 00:24:13.831 --> 00:24:15.113 This is boring. 340 00:24:16.975 --> 00:24:18.316 I'm like, but boring is good. 341 00:24:18.356 --> 00:24:22.320 Like to have a successful company, if it's fires all the time, like that's not a good thing. 342 00:24:22.658 --> 00:24:24.099 But it is grow or die, right? 343 00:24:24.199 --> 00:24:26.661 You do have to push the edges all the time. 344 00:24:27.642 --> 00:24:34.648 And what I often do find is that Dan Sullivan has, you know, he's very, very good. 345 00:24:34.688 --> 00:24:39.332 If you're familiar with strategic coach and Dan Sullivan, he's very good at one liners. 346 00:24:39.352 --> 00:24:46.398 And he basically says two things that if you're always putting out fires, you have to ask yourself who the arsonist is. 347 00:24:46.843 --> 00:24:47.544 Yes. 348 00:24:47.644 --> 00:24:51.269 Dan Martel has a thing where he calls them grenades. 349 00:24:51.329 --> 00:24:59.441 Like that business owners almost sabotage themselves because they get bored and then they just want to like throw a grenade so that then they can go like clean it up. 350 00:24:59.561 --> 00:25:01.283 And so we try to be aware of 351 00:25:02.505 --> 00:25:03.265 not doing that. 352 00:25:03.345 --> 00:25:12.408 But... And I think, too, honestly, where I'm at individually is just really enjoying a little bit less chaos for a season and spending time with my children. 353 00:25:12.468 --> 00:25:14.908 Like, they're all still young and at home. 354 00:25:15.769 --> 00:25:19.630 And I'm thankful that it's in a more stable place where I'm not on the phone... 355 00:25:20.490 --> 00:25:24.035 all evening and up working late at night and all of those things. 356 00:25:24.075 --> 00:25:30.845 And then it's a season where I can be strategic about where I'm spending my time and I can like be with my kids in the evening and things like that. 357 00:25:30.885 --> 00:25:34.911 And so I think we're just wanting to lean into just being really present parents, like, 358 00:25:35.412 --> 00:25:36.092 for a season. 359 00:25:36.152 --> 00:25:37.653 And that's great. 360 00:25:37.913 --> 00:25:44.097 And that's the other part too, is even mentally, when you feel like, oh, I could grow bigger, I could do more, I could do whatever. 361 00:25:44.277 --> 00:25:46.058 And it's like, are we striving enough? 362 00:25:46.098 --> 00:25:46.958 Are we doing enough? 363 00:25:47.098 --> 00:25:50.080 I think that kind of like, it's never good enough. 364 00:25:50.660 --> 00:25:57.224 It can drive a business to do great things, but also personally being aware of like, that's not necessarily what God's calling you to do in that season. 365 00:25:57.264 --> 00:25:59.885 Like, yes, we could work more and yes, we could build more. 366 00:25:59.965 --> 00:26:03.367 But like, is that where we should be spending our time right now? 367 00:26:03.627 --> 00:26:10.269 you know, when our oldest is in high school now, like he won't be here, you know, four years from now, like a lot of that's really sobering. 368 00:26:10.329 --> 00:26:15.191 It's like, we want to be present parents and we don't want to be just striving and chasing. 369 00:26:15.211 --> 00:26:17.432 Like at some point it's like, when's it enough? 370 00:26:17.632 --> 00:26:21.653 And not meaning you don't want to have a business that's growing, but like, there's still a cost. 371 00:26:21.813 --> 00:26:26.095 And I think that you have to have the maturity to really evaluate it, you know, logically. 372 00:26:26.395 --> 00:26:34.982 Like, cause the whole point of this, like in the rich life, Gino Wickman, it's like doing things you love with people you love with enough spare time to do things, you know, that you enjoy. 373 00:26:35.002 --> 00:26:38.785 And, and I think you have to be aware of, of all those pieces. 374 00:26:39.095 --> 00:26:42.378 And that's been just a lot of conversation we've been having is like, what is this next season for us? 375 00:26:42.438 --> 00:26:43.359 Like, what is it? 376 00:26:43.399 --> 00:26:46.201 Like, do you go acquire a bunch of things and busy yourself up? 377 00:26:46.261 --> 00:26:53.527 Or do you enjoy like, like I'm coaching Sarah's volleyball team and Jonathan's coaching soccer and where we have time to do other things that we love. 378 00:26:53.747 --> 00:26:54.568 And that's a gift. 379 00:26:54.608 --> 00:26:55.969 We didn't have that time five years ago. 380 00:26:56.149 --> 00:27:00.673 You know, very rarely do I meet entrepreneurs that don't want to have more time with their family. 381 00:27:00.913 --> 00:27:02.775 They just don't see how... 382 00:27:03.834 --> 00:27:13.317 they can do what the business requires and keep things moving and meet the needs that the business has while also being at home. 383 00:27:13.357 --> 00:27:18.898 Because there is just a volume of stuff that you have to get through, especially in the first five years. 384 00:27:18.978 --> 00:27:20.199 It's just the reality of it. 385 00:27:20.939 --> 00:27:28.801 And I met an entrepreneur, started a company a couple years in, and a lot of the conversation was just like, well, we really want a nicer house. 386 00:27:28.821 --> 00:27:30.081 And we really want new cars. 387 00:27:30.121 --> 00:27:31.022 And we really want to go on these 388 00:27:32.617 --> 00:27:35.119 you know, I'm frustrated that we can't do all these things. 389 00:27:35.199 --> 00:27:43.366 And I remember talking to my husband and just being like, they're not going to make it because if you're not willing to sacrifice, like... 390 00:27:44.402 --> 00:27:45.542 you've got to be all in. 391 00:27:45.682 --> 00:27:46.743 We remortgaged our house. 392 00:27:47.363 --> 00:27:49.923 Like, that's like, which we laugh. 393 00:27:49.944 --> 00:27:51.224 We're like, we're like nuts. 394 00:27:51.284 --> 00:27:52.064 Like we were totally nuts. 395 00:27:52.344 --> 00:27:58.366 We were like, we're going to remortgage our house so that we can like live off of this while we're trying to build this. 396 00:27:58.446 --> 00:27:59.486 Like we were all in. 397 00:27:59.566 --> 00:28:01.647 And at one point we were like, we'll sell our house. 398 00:28:01.687 --> 00:28:03.207 We'll move into a smaller home. 399 00:28:03.567 --> 00:28:04.888 We couldn't really afford vacations. 400 00:28:04.988 --> 00:28:07.688 So we were doing a home exchanges, kind of like the holiday movie. 401 00:28:07.708 --> 00:28:09.829 We would find families that wanted to exchange homes. 402 00:28:10.509 --> 00:28:15.290 And we would just like trade houses in the summer so we could go do trips with our family. 403 00:28:15.370 --> 00:28:17.411 And my husband is just very creative. 404 00:28:17.511 --> 00:28:21.732 Like he can figure things out on very minimal resources and he's not risk averse at all. 405 00:28:21.992 --> 00:28:25.773 And so a lot of it, it's like, we're still gonna have a big fun summer with the kids. 406 00:28:25.793 --> 00:28:27.194 We're still gonna do all these things. 407 00:28:27.214 --> 00:28:30.675 We're just gonna be really creative and maybe non-conventional on how we do them. 408 00:28:31.195 --> 00:28:33.516 And so I don't feel like our kids missed out in that regard. 409 00:28:33.836 --> 00:28:36.636 We started the business right when I had my third son. 410 00:28:36.837 --> 00:28:38.237 And I feel like his first... 411 00:28:39.077 --> 00:28:48.501 five years of life, we were working so hard and we were working from home a lot because we're accountants, but like not present, like you're there, but you're not present. 412 00:28:48.561 --> 00:28:51.582 And you're always distracted on the phone, totally overwhelmed. 413 00:28:51.602 --> 00:28:53.763 It was just a very overwhelming season of life. 414 00:28:54.003 --> 00:28:58.945 And I feel like in those younger years, we really missed intentional time with him. 415 00:28:58.985 --> 00:29:00.566 Like when he was around age... 416 00:29:01.166 --> 00:29:05.507 four or five, like we were having some behavioral challenges and some other things. 417 00:29:05.907 --> 00:29:10.489 And my husband and I do kind of like respite care through foster, but you do a lot of foster training. 418 00:29:10.569 --> 00:29:17.090 But they were talking about this like secure attachment phenomenon and how like you really have to have a secure attachment with your parent. 419 00:29:17.731 --> 00:29:23.352 And we left that meeting really understanding like three out of our four kids have a secure attachment. 420 00:29:23.412 --> 00:29:24.353 And then we have this one 421 00:29:26.515 --> 00:29:29.161 feel like he's, you know, fully integrated into the family. 422 00:29:29.181 --> 00:29:33.751 And we really, with intention and honestly, a lot of God's grace, like, 423 00:29:35.074 --> 00:29:40.057 within a few years of just really intentional time, like now he's thriving and doing wonderful. 424 00:29:40.457 --> 00:29:43.579 But I remember as a mother, just feeling like we kind of missed it. 425 00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:44.920 And it wasn't on purpose. 426 00:29:44.980 --> 00:29:46.540 It was just the season of overwhelm. 427 00:29:46.580 --> 00:29:47.861 And also it's like the third kid. 428 00:29:47.901 --> 00:29:49.662 So you think, well, they're playing with their siblings. 429 00:29:49.682 --> 00:29:50.423 We got this now. 430 00:29:50.823 --> 00:29:52.144 They're all playing with each other. 431 00:29:52.224 --> 00:29:53.104 Like they're fine. 432 00:29:53.945 --> 00:29:55.665 But just not getting enough time with us. 433 00:29:55.866 --> 00:30:00.508 And so we look back and we're like, that was a big miss and like a big thing. 434 00:30:00.628 --> 00:30:02.269 But God redeemed it, you know? 435 00:30:02.309 --> 00:30:03.550 And I think some of that too is, 436 00:30:05.141 --> 00:30:09.324 I still get a little teary talking about it, but it's like holding shame and regret. 437 00:30:09.424 --> 00:30:10.925 It's not super productive. 438 00:30:10.985 --> 00:30:16.649 It's like, yes, that's something I think in hindsight, we would have made some different choices, but... 439 00:30:17.877 --> 00:30:21.879 you know, God redeemed it and he's thriving and everyone's doing amazing. 440 00:30:21.919 --> 00:30:26.060 And so that's been really good, but there are other sacrifices that you make. 441 00:30:26.100 --> 00:30:27.021 And I think it's hard. 442 00:30:27.241 --> 00:30:31.822 Not meeting full potential is also a fear, but then also not spending time with loved ones. 443 00:30:31.882 --> 00:30:41.986 And I think sometimes those feel like competing interests because you want to meet your full potential, which means you want to work hard, build things, do the things, which can sometimes directly compete with spending time with the people that you love. 444 00:30:42.026 --> 00:30:43.567 And so I think that's the tension that 445 00:30:44.067 --> 00:30:47.709 that entrepreneurs have to hold and try to navigate, which is hard. 446 00:30:48.169 --> 00:30:48.469 It's hard. 447 00:30:48.849 --> 00:30:51.250 Because how do you meet your full potential if you're not always working? 448 00:30:51.570 --> 00:30:55.292 And how do you spend time with the people you love if you're trying to meet a full potential in a company? 449 00:30:55.312 --> 00:30:59.854 And so I think that's where you have to think through, what does meeting your full potential mean? 450 00:30:59.934 --> 00:31:02.795 Because I'm not just an entrepreneurial business owner. 451 00:31:02.815 --> 00:31:06.816 I'm also a mother, and I'm a wife, and I'm a daughter, and I'm a friend. 452 00:31:07.537 --> 00:31:10.638 And so meeting your full potential doesn't just mean... 453 00:31:11.303 --> 00:31:11.824 the company. 454 00:31:11.984 --> 00:31:15.730 There's all these other areas of you, I think, that you have to think about. 455 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:31.444 The question I have for you in terms of that, which is, I think we end up getting stuck in, we have these issues, we have these objectives, the goals, the desires, the wants, and thinking that you can't have it all. 456 00:31:32.185 --> 00:31:36.266 And we're also trained that the only answer to every problem is to work harder. 457 00:31:37.266 --> 00:31:44.588 So for you, what's the one problem that you should never even attempt to solve by working harder? 458 00:31:45.156 --> 00:31:50.397 Oh man, I think it's, it comes down to some of the systems work. 459 00:31:50.617 --> 00:31:53.738 My husband naturally thinks that way, which is his gifting. 460 00:31:53.778 --> 00:31:58.339 But I remember one time, cause I tend to move towards the, like, I have to work harder and I have to do more. 461 00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:00.559 Like that tends to be my default. 462 00:32:00.819 --> 00:32:11.481 I remember my husband, it was not that long ago actually, cause I think I was trying to jump in to help with some time sensitive issue, but he's like, there's 40,000 hours of time or something like that 463 00:32:14.989 --> 00:32:23.214 Do you think if there's like a system breakdown or a system issue somewhere, it's like you working harder is like not going to move the needle. 464 00:32:23.274 --> 00:32:24.494 It's like a drop in the bucket. 465 00:32:24.654 --> 00:32:25.555 And he's right. 466 00:32:25.775 --> 00:32:37.922 It's like, yeah, there might be an instance where you feel like you have to come in to help and support, but like very quickly, you should be looking at like, what's the breakdown that caused this and how do we not do this again? 467 00:32:37.942 --> 00:32:40.003 And most time with entrepreneurs, you know, 468 00:32:41.030 --> 00:32:45.834 I would say 80% of the time, it's a people issue that they're not willing to deal with. 469 00:32:46.114 --> 00:32:47.055 At least that we see. 470 00:32:47.155 --> 00:32:54.180 It's usually a toxic employee, somebody that's a family member, somebody where we're just, we're not willing to make a hard decision. 471 00:32:54.200 --> 00:33:00.785 So we're all going to go in circles and, you know, over-function to allow this person to continue to exist in the business. 472 00:33:01.025 --> 00:33:06.990 So I would say the people issues is one area where I'm like, I will not work hard or over-function for people issues like anymore. 473 00:33:07.230 --> 00:33:09.332 I used to, I used to do that, but I won't do it anymore. 474 00:33:09.512 --> 00:33:10.933 Because you end up getting leverage, right? 475 00:33:10.953 --> 00:33:13.655 I mean, what you're really talking about is... Is leverage, absolutely. 476 00:33:13.675 --> 00:33:14.295 You have leverage. 477 00:33:14.595 --> 00:33:26.884 You have one of your hours times all the hours that the people who work for you, if you can harness that human energy, get it growing in one direction, you can accomplish amazing things by that leverage. 478 00:33:27.224 --> 00:33:27.724 Absolutely. 479 00:33:27.825 --> 00:33:29.065 Well, and right now, like even... 480 00:33:29.426 --> 00:33:32.768 So if I spend an hour of my time reviewing client's tax return, for example, which... 481 00:33:33.242 --> 00:33:35.383 we have amazing team members that are capable of doing that. 482 00:33:35.563 --> 00:33:41.184 Like this week we were working on using AI to automate some of like our pricing and our proposal flow. 483 00:33:41.424 --> 00:33:43.265 Very, you know, much better hour spent. 484 00:33:43.705 --> 00:33:48.986 And so I think entrepreneurs, we, you get kind of just addicted to being busy and like the dopamine hits of it all. 485 00:33:49.827 --> 00:33:55.708 And you're not really thinking about the leverage and like where the time should be, should be spent. 486 00:33:55.808 --> 00:34:00.930 And honestly, leverage now for me, it is around like this AI and automation and like, 487 00:34:01.670 --> 00:34:04.393 really helping with some of this R&D and like building things. 488 00:34:04.413 --> 00:34:08.756 And then also like podcasts and external facing things and like strategic relationships. 489 00:34:08.837 --> 00:34:13.340 It's like, if it's not in that area, I should probably not be spending time with it. 490 00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:17.144 And then like large client relationships, I still like to touch base and things like that. 491 00:34:17.164 --> 00:34:19.446 But like my role is a lot more defined now. 492 00:34:20.547 --> 00:34:27.573 And I can firefight, like if the deadline has to be, like I have the skills to do that, but that's no longer what serves the business the best either. 493 00:34:27.733 --> 00:34:29.413 And honestly, like my people are awesome. 494 00:34:29.633 --> 00:34:37.035 I think inadvertently when we jump in and we think we're, we're quote, helping someone, we're actually communicating that we don't think they're capable of doing it themselves. 495 00:34:37.955 --> 00:34:48.118 And I think over time as, as leaders, we're training people how they should treat us in the sense of when you mentioned like, they're not allowed to make a decision. 496 00:34:48.178 --> 00:34:50.538 Like we're training them that they're not allowed to make a decision. 497 00:34:50.558 --> 00:34:54.999 We're also training them that they're allowed to upward delegate work to us and that they don't have to figure it out. 498 00:34:57.820 --> 00:34:59.661 They can hand it back to us and that we will take it. 499 00:35:00.461 --> 00:35:05.383 And so we have these like patterns of behavior over time where we're creating habits. 500 00:35:05.563 --> 00:35:09.524 And then we wonder, we look around, we're like, why is this all being upward delegated to me? 501 00:35:09.584 --> 00:35:11.385 Like, why do I still have all this on my plate? 502 00:35:11.425 --> 00:35:15.426 And it's like, well, you've established a standard that that's like acceptable behavior. 503 00:35:15.506 --> 00:35:17.847 It's like, well, when things are hard, I give it back to the owner. 504 00:35:18.508 --> 00:35:24.329 or when things are a little bit nuanced, I give it back to the owner because I don't have the authority to problem solve or make decisions. 505 00:35:24.430 --> 00:35:26.730 So it turns into this like loop. 506 00:35:26.830 --> 00:35:29.591 And then the owner is frustrated because they can't figure out how to get out of it. 507 00:35:29.651 --> 00:35:34.132 But at some point, you have to say like, you're empowered to make the decision or teach them how to make the decision. 508 00:35:34.612 --> 00:35:39.033 Or just the best question is, what do you propose we do about it and make them come to you with solutions. 509 00:35:39.053 --> 00:35:41.814 And then you can say yes or no, while they're working on their muscle. 510 00:35:41.874 --> 00:35:41.994 But 511 00:35:42.294 --> 00:35:43.695 I feel like I've made every mistake under the sun. 512 00:35:43.735 --> 00:35:44.555 I'm like, yeah, I did that. 513 00:35:44.575 --> 00:35:44.995 I did that. 514 00:35:45.015 --> 00:35:45.415 I did that. 515 00:35:45.455 --> 00:35:47.536 Like all these things I've done myself. 516 00:35:47.576 --> 00:35:48.636 I just do them less now. 517 00:35:48.856 --> 00:35:50.877 Not saying I never do them, but I do them less now. 518 00:35:50.937 --> 00:35:52.457 Or I'm more aware when I'm doing it. 519 00:35:52.497 --> 00:35:54.998 Like I'll know this is not a great use of my time. 520 00:35:55.078 --> 00:35:56.579 I'm going to help because it's a big client. 521 00:35:56.599 --> 00:35:57.179 It's a fire. 522 00:35:57.279 --> 00:35:59.560 But then I'm going to make sure that I'm not doing it again. 523 00:36:00.424 --> 00:36:01.265 Right, right. 524 00:36:01.465 --> 00:36:11.132 What's one of the things that you think founders, maybe not one thing, maybe a list of things, that you think founders wait entirely too long to spend the money on? 525 00:36:11.312 --> 00:36:17.897 I think they spend a lot of money on like marketing and other things they struggle to measure, but then they don't spend money on hiring entrepreneurs 526 00:36:18.477 --> 00:36:19.980 just good people that can support them. 527 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.443 You know, I was working with an entrepreneur recently. 528 00:36:22.564 --> 00:36:26.269 They really need like a COO type and they have a kind of office manager type. 529 00:36:26.289 --> 00:36:27.551 That's what I was saying. 530 00:36:27.591 --> 00:36:33.080 What you get for like $70,000 is so much different than what you get for $100,000, what you get for $150,000. 531 00:36:33.901 --> 00:36:37.842 And this is a business that is making the money to afford a hire like that. 532 00:36:38.002 --> 00:36:45.845 But I do think there's this like belief of like, I don't want to invest in expensive people or I don't want to invest in people that might be better than me at doing the thing. 533 00:36:45.865 --> 00:36:52.287 And so actually, you know, if you were a plumber, I'll just say, you know, there's better plumbers out there than you. 534 00:36:52.827 --> 00:36:54.908 Like there's better engineers out there. 535 00:36:54.948 --> 00:36:57.108 There's better accountants than me out there. 536 00:36:57.328 --> 00:36:58.869 So like, why would you not go hire them? 537 00:36:59.029 --> 00:37:05.091 But I think there is this wanting to be maybe the smartest person in your own little kingdom that you're making. 538 00:37:05.471 --> 00:37:07.472 And so I think you have to get out of that. 539 00:37:07.552 --> 00:37:12.134 And you have to be like, I'm going to hire the best support person that I can to help with client execution. 540 00:37:12.174 --> 00:37:13.354 And I want them to be better than me. 541 00:37:13.374 --> 00:37:14.574 And I'm willing to invest in that. 542 00:37:14.614 --> 00:37:16.175 And I'm going to train them, set my expectation. 543 00:37:16.615 --> 00:37:17.215 And they're going to do it. 544 00:37:17.235 --> 00:37:19.576 But I think there's this fear around what if they leave? 545 00:37:19.596 --> 00:37:20.456 What if, what if, what if? 546 00:37:20.696 --> 00:37:21.837 But what if you don't make that hire? 547 00:37:22.217 --> 00:37:23.777 What if you don't do it? 548 00:37:23.817 --> 00:37:25.177 You're going to be stuck here forever. 549 00:37:25.337 --> 00:37:29.639 And so I actually think hiring capable people is an area people don't invest enough in. 550 00:37:29.659 --> 00:37:32.319 And I think that's something that we've done well. 551 00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:38.621 And I think because our kids were young, it forced me to make that decision, I think, a little bit earlier than most entrepreneurs. 552 00:37:38.641 --> 00:37:41.402 Because I was like, I have to spend time with my kids. 553 00:37:41.462 --> 00:37:43.022 I don't want to negotiate that. 554 00:37:43.062 --> 00:37:44.243 So I'm going to hire... 555 00:37:45.063 --> 00:37:45.943 the role early. 556 00:37:45.983 --> 00:37:46.744 I'm not going to wait. 557 00:37:47.144 --> 00:37:52.766 I think that that was one area I feel like we did well in was we did build infrastructure and we hired people early. 558 00:37:52.846 --> 00:37:59.528 So we've always had a leadership team in place that could handle, I would say, 20% more capacity than where we're at now. 559 00:37:59.548 --> 00:38:01.329 We've always been hiring ahead. 560 00:38:01.529 --> 00:38:02.749 But most businesses don't do that. 561 00:38:02.769 --> 00:38:03.770 They have no infrastructure. 562 00:38:03.790 --> 00:38:09.312 It's like a $10 million company and a lot of lower level people and there's no mid-level management. 563 00:38:09.352 --> 00:38:09.852 There's no... 564 00:38:10.612 --> 00:38:11.813 Nobody with real authority. 565 00:38:11.873 --> 00:38:13.414 And then the owner is totally burned out. 566 00:38:13.594 --> 00:38:14.955 Like we see that on a regular basis. 567 00:38:15.396 --> 00:38:16.437 Yeah. 568 00:38:16.557 --> 00:38:26.084 Now I love that you pointed out, you know, having that mid manager layer and making sure that they're great, hiring them to be better than you are. 569 00:38:26.104 --> 00:38:29.607 I always call it like your people tend to build fences around themselves. 570 00:38:29.627 --> 00:38:29.847 Yeah. 571 00:38:29.952 --> 00:38:32.073 Well, I think the fear is what if they leave, right? 572 00:38:32.093 --> 00:38:35.754 I think that's where people get nervous, but there's a lot of talented people out there. 573 00:38:36.354 --> 00:38:47.038 And then that spirals into making it a great place for them to work, which I also feel like is the founder's job is creating a great work environment that's not toxic, that recognizes people. 574 00:38:47.118 --> 00:38:50.039 Because yeah, you can recruit great people, but now can you retain them? 575 00:38:50.059 --> 00:38:51.000 Right, right. 576 00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:57.503 One of my last questions for you is around that mid-manager layer. 577 00:38:57.523 --> 00:38:57.983 Yeah. 578 00:38:58.403 --> 00:39:16.672 And what I find, and I'd love to hear your experience and your approach to this, which is there's very low incentive for a mid-manager to be great, to lead, manage, and build their own team to be a world-class team. 579 00:39:17.252 --> 00:39:24.915 Because they're usually, you know, they're doers, they're in that role, they've been elevated to a leader of a team because of their own skill set. 580 00:39:25.155 --> 00:39:31.918 The desire to be disciplined, to be focused is a rarity, I think. 581 00:39:31.998 --> 00:39:37.681 And so how do you think about, you know, you've been running on EOS for eight years. 582 00:39:38.161 --> 00:39:42.203 I don't know to what degree the tools have been rolled out to the business. 583 00:39:42.783 --> 00:39:43.024 Yeah. 584 00:39:43.364 --> 00:39:45.709 But how are you thinking about what are the incentives? 585 00:39:45.749 --> 00:39:51.902 How do you align all those mid managers to use the tools to execute, to build great teams? 586 00:39:52.130 --> 00:39:52.930 It's a great question. 587 00:39:53.051 --> 00:40:15.164 We've been on EOS for eight years, but let's say like in the, you know, associate senior manager, kind of in that area of our business, like the biggest metrics in a, you know, service client service business really is like your utilization percentage, like how much of your time you're spending serving clients, and then also like meeting your client deadlines, right? 588 00:40:15.825 --> 00:40:20.849 And then we've got the third, which is realization, which is like, can we bill the clients for the work that you're doing? 589 00:40:20.909 --> 00:40:27.934 Meaning we're not wasting a lot of time or having to do a lot of write-offs because we took 20 hours to do something that should have taken five kind of thing. 590 00:40:27.974 --> 00:40:32.157 And so we've got this utilization, managing your deadlines, and we're not wasting a lot of time 591 00:40:32.257 --> 00:40:33.458 And then realization. 592 00:40:33.658 --> 00:40:37.741 And so we had all these, like the scorecard, and we're like reporting on them every week. 593 00:40:38.362 --> 00:40:39.282 Everyone can see it. 594 00:40:39.322 --> 00:40:41.644 We implemented a workflow system that's awesome. 595 00:40:41.884 --> 00:40:45.947 It's called Carbon, and it manages, like, it tracks everything, like you can see it all. 596 00:40:46.167 --> 00:40:51.611 And so we're thinking, well, we're going to give all these people this data, and then the expectation. 597 00:40:51.752 --> 00:40:56.975 And we had a charge hour, you know, kind of like realization, utilization targets, and we're publishing them every month. 598 00:40:57.356 --> 00:41:01.559 And we're thinking that that will solve, like, that will be enough, right? 599 00:41:01.839 --> 00:41:06.942 And so then we're like a year in and we're looking at utilization and we're like half the team's not even hitting their utilization target. 600 00:41:07.003 --> 00:41:09.244 Like, what are we doing about this? 601 00:41:09.404 --> 00:41:21.092 And so when we really double clicked on it, what was happening to your point was, one, we don't have those clearly defined in people's performance reviews, which in hindsight now I'm like, well, that feels silly. 602 00:41:21.652 --> 00:41:27.036 And no knock on EOS, but we had the like GWC and then we had the core values. 603 00:41:27.216 --> 00:41:28.276 it was almost too high level. 604 00:41:28.316 --> 00:41:34.259 It was like, do they, you know, do they GWC their job and do they meet the core values plus minus or plus minus whatever. 605 00:41:34.539 --> 00:41:36.920 And so it was just almost like too simplified. 606 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:45.723 So then we went back and then instead of GWC, we took their five key functions and then we made really clear like metrics and expectations around all the functions. 607 00:41:45.783 --> 00:41:51.785 So now our performance reviews, what they look like is we have the observable behaviors for every core value. 608 00:41:52.386 --> 00:41:55.687 We have the measurable objectives of the functions 609 00:41:56.267 --> 00:42:01.110 So it's like 20 checkboxes because you have your five core values, your five functions, you have five for each. 610 00:42:01.350 --> 00:42:03.391 Like that's what you're getting evaluated on every quarter. 611 00:42:03.451 --> 00:42:11.936 It's like, so if humility is a core value and part of that is that I'm listening to others and I'm willing to accept feedback, like then the supervisor is going over that with you. 612 00:42:12.076 --> 00:42:13.257 It's either a yes or a no. 613 00:42:14.024 --> 00:42:17.907 And then each core value, you're getting kind of your rating, like you got four out of five or three out of five. 614 00:42:18.188 --> 00:42:25.914 We changed that, which I think made a big difference because in hindsight, like I said, having utilization was not really in their performance review, which is ridiculous. 615 00:42:26.635 --> 00:42:28.096 So we made all these changes. 616 00:42:28.156 --> 00:42:34.481 And then also things like putting your time in on time is now part of your metric because results matter as a core value. 617 00:42:34.501 --> 00:42:34.741 Well... 618 00:42:35.442 --> 00:42:40.227 putting in your time on time and managing client budgets and all these things, like they are part of all of this. 619 00:42:40.247 --> 00:42:42.169 So now we kind of tied it all into performance reviews. 620 00:42:42.209 --> 00:42:45.232 So that's one thing is people actually see it and they're talking about it. 621 00:42:45.432 --> 00:42:50.357 And then the other thing we did is we implemented manager incentives financially to, 622 00:42:50.717 --> 00:43:00.448 where we do quarterly bonuses now, if the manager's team hits utilization and realization targets that quarter, then the manager gets a bonus. 623 00:43:00.929 --> 00:43:04.292 And that bonus is tied to the amount of revenue their team is managing. 624 00:43:04.312 --> 00:43:06.074 Because the other thing we were trying to solve for 625 00:43:06.855 --> 00:43:09.656 is wanting people to want to take more clients because it's tempting. 626 00:43:09.676 --> 00:43:12.317 If you're managing a team, you're kind of humming along and there's a new client. 627 00:43:12.677 --> 00:43:18.919 Well, why are you incentive to grow your team unless you're just someone who likes to have more, which not everyone's like that. 628 00:43:19.259 --> 00:43:22.440 We're like, but we want our managers to want to manage more clients. 629 00:43:23.141 --> 00:43:26.422 So we also tied the incentive into like how much revenue are they managing? 630 00:43:26.522 --> 00:43:30.683 So now it's quarterly incentive if your team's hitting the metrics and it's based on how much revenue you manage. 631 00:43:30.723 --> 00:43:34.925 And so the first year we implemented that, the performance was like, 632 00:43:35.785 --> 00:43:37.006 night and day difference. 633 00:43:37.226 --> 00:43:40.968 And the managers every quarter are like, you know, am I going to hit my bonus? 634 00:43:41.148 --> 00:43:43.109 And, or they're raising their hand too. 635 00:43:43.129 --> 00:43:44.409 They're like, this contract's terrible. 636 00:43:44.489 --> 00:43:48.211 My realization is going to be bad because the contract that they don't have control over that. 637 00:43:48.231 --> 00:43:54.534 So they're escalating things immediately because they know that this client contract is going to mess up their realization and they want support. 638 00:43:54.994 --> 00:43:58.356 with like calling the client and fixing the fee structures and things like that. 639 00:43:58.396 --> 00:44:04.378 So I really truly believe like the performance review structure and also incentive and comp structure is like so important. 640 00:44:04.459 --> 00:44:12.022 And we implemented these, like I said, a couple years ago, and the just the overall performance has been night and day, like night and day difference. 641 00:44:12.102 --> 00:44:20.588 Which makes a lot of sense because in my conversation, I'm like, man, you can find great mid managers in the U.S. military. 642 00:44:21.689 --> 00:44:36.480 And if you think about how much they spend, I had the opportunity to be at the Pentagon and they wanted to make sure that the world of entrepreneurs knew that it takes 10 years and five million dollars to make a major. 643 00:44:36.860 --> 00:44:45.926 So a major in the U.S. Army, someone poured 10 years and $5 million into training that person to be a great mid-manager. 644 00:44:46.246 --> 00:44:51.049 How much money and time do we spend on training our mid-managers? 645 00:44:51.309 --> 00:44:53.210 I think it could always be more intentional. 646 00:44:53.490 --> 00:45:00.454 And our kind of account managers is like our managers and our controllers, they're just so wonderful. 647 00:45:00.695 --> 00:45:05.898 And I think if you look at the organization and where the water is really carried, it's really at that level. 648 00:45:06.458 --> 00:45:06.738 level. 649 00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:14.183 And so I do think that making sure they have the tools to be successful, like if you're short staffed, address it. 650 00:45:14.203 --> 00:45:15.804 If they don't have the training, address it. 651 00:45:15.884 --> 00:45:20.567 Like I do feel like it's the organization's job to make sure they have the resources to be successful. 652 00:45:20.907 --> 00:45:26.610 So many organizations just expect people to know like what they're supposed to be doing and what it's supposed to look like. 653 00:45:26.650 --> 00:45:28.091 And we think that it's common sense. 654 00:45:28.111 --> 00:45:29.252 And that's the other thing like 655 00:45:29.872 --> 00:45:33.113 I think the nugget you learn along the way is you're like, oh, like common sense. 656 00:45:33.653 --> 00:45:35.033 That's not a thing in the business world. 657 00:45:35.073 --> 00:45:36.714 Like you have to build everything. 658 00:45:37.214 --> 00:45:43.555 And we think, oh, everyone should just want to work hard and take on more clients and like do more work because like they should be motivated like we are. 659 00:45:43.695 --> 00:45:47.096 And I think the reality is that that's not how most people function. 660 00:45:47.416 --> 00:45:48.696 And that does not mean that they're lazy. 661 00:45:49.016 --> 00:45:50.857 That does not mean that they're not wonderful people. 662 00:45:51.037 --> 00:45:55.638 It means that you have not clearly defined like the expectations and what success looks like. 663 00:45:56.058 --> 00:46:03.525 So like my question entrepreneurs sometimes when they're complaining about a person or whatever is like, does this person know, like, are they clear on what success looks like? 664 00:46:03.545 --> 00:46:06.508 Like if I asked them, what is being successful in your role? 665 00:46:06.528 --> 00:46:07.228 Like, what does it mean? 666 00:46:07.829 --> 00:46:08.630 Like, would they know? 667 00:46:09.290 --> 00:46:11.673 And most of the time, it's like, not really. 668 00:46:11.993 --> 00:46:13.214 Like, they wouldn't really know. 669 00:46:13.855 --> 00:46:16.217 And I still think this is an area we can always improve in. 670 00:46:16.257 --> 00:46:18.279 Like, we've never, like, we haven't arrived yet. 671 00:46:18.839 --> 00:46:24.284 But I do think that my managers would say like, meeting my deadlines, utilization, and realization. 672 00:46:24.404 --> 00:46:28.308 Like, I think that they would know, like that's what success means in the position. 673 00:46:28.448 --> 00:46:30.590 And three years ago, they would not have had that clarity. 674 00:46:30.690 --> 00:46:31.631 And that's on me. 675 00:46:31.691 --> 00:46:32.732 That's not on them. 676 00:46:32.752 --> 00:46:33.133 That's on me. 677 00:46:33.353 --> 00:46:39.879 I think just taking ownership for things that are creating ambiguity and like not setting people up for success is important. 678 00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:42.321 And then if you are really clear and then they're still not doing it, 679 00:46:43.265 --> 00:46:43.685 move on. 680 00:46:43.725 --> 00:46:45.326 Like, let them be successful somewhere else. 681 00:46:45.406 --> 00:46:46.126 Like, that's okay. 682 00:46:46.146 --> 00:46:47.787 I had a mentor one time. 683 00:46:47.807 --> 00:46:50.428 He said, you are not the provider for people. 684 00:46:50.549 --> 00:46:52.489 Like, God is the provider for people. 685 00:46:52.650 --> 00:46:55.051 And so in work, you're not their mother. 686 00:46:55.071 --> 00:46:55.911 You're not their father. 687 00:46:56.411 --> 00:46:58.993 Like, providing for everyone is not your responsibility. 688 00:46:59.053 --> 00:47:00.794 Like, God did not mean for you to carry that. 689 00:47:00.814 --> 00:47:01.554 That is not yours. 690 00:47:01.594 --> 00:47:07.777 But being a steward of the company that God gave you and making sure it's run well, and then making sure that people that are there are 691 00:47:08.237 --> 00:47:14.182 are cared for and have the resources to be successful and can work in a good environment, I think is your responsibility. 692 00:47:14.222 --> 00:47:22.468 Like, you know, take responsibility for those things, but all the guilt and shame around letting someone go that if it's not the best fit for them, you're not doing them a favor, keeping them there forever. 693 00:47:22.548 --> 00:47:23.789 They'll be happier somewhere else. 694 00:47:23.989 --> 00:47:24.930 And that's okay. 695 00:47:25.230 --> 00:47:25.830 Yeah, for sure. 696 00:47:26.191 --> 00:47:30.613 All right, Shannon, I appreciate you coming on hitting the ceiling. 697 00:47:31.053 --> 00:47:45.421 Before we go, as you think about the audience of companies running on EOS, of entrepreneurs who are just trying to get what it is that they want from their business, what is one piece of advice that you would give them? 698 00:47:45.848 --> 00:47:53.078 I think especially if you're going to do EOS specifically, it would be that you need to be all in and really committed to following the process. 699 00:47:53.659 --> 00:47:57.284 So like a partial implementation of EOS does not work. 700 00:47:57.484 --> 00:48:02.191 And then I think the overarching is just around like systems and discipline and just how... 701 00:48:02.731 --> 00:48:06.452 It really is the founder's role to set up the systems, the structure and the disciplines. 702 00:48:06.552 --> 00:48:15.995 And that means we have to show up and have that kind of discipline on a daily basis to set that cadence and not get shiny object syndrome, not drag the org in a bunch of different directions and all those kinds of things. 703 00:48:16.035 --> 00:48:25.957 And so I think if you're going to commit to it and you want to run a world class business, like you commit to EOS and then you implement it like full force, like with conviction and you're all in, you know, all in. 704 00:48:26.137 --> 00:48:26.497 All right. 705 00:48:26.797 --> 00:48:27.057 Love it. 706 00:48:27.378 --> 00:48:28.258 Thanks, Shannon. 707 00:48:28.318 --> 00:48:28.958 Thank you for having me. 708 00:48:29.530 --> 00:48:34.776 If this conversation gave you something to think about, I'd love to keep that going. 709 00:48:35.276 --> 00:48:47.609 I write a newsletter called Clarity Break Thoughts, where I share simple ideas, questions, and reminders to help you step back, think clearly, and lead with more intention. 710 00:48:48.270 --> 00:48:52.975 You can subscribe at eosworldwide.com slash claritybreakthoughts. 711 00:48:53.475 --> 00:48:58.020 Again, that's eosworldwide.com slash claritybreakthoughts.