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More and more people are getting prenups.

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You said to me that a lot of people contact you these days asking for you to help with prenups.

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One of the interesting things we were talking about before we started filming was it's really uncomfortable to turn to your partner and ask them for a prenup.

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I know a lot of people say that, and I think it's a question of how you enter the conversation.

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Again, like, you know, I guess because I get paid to talk, and I'm used to talking sometimes about difficult things with a judge or revealing, you know, things that are hard to reveal about someone and trying to make sure that they're not viewed negatively, even though they might have behaved negatively.

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So I think prenup, it's all about how you bring up the conversation.

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And my preferred entry point for a prenup when I talk to someone is every single person who gets married has a prenup.

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It's either written by the government or it's written by the two people who love each other more than the other eight billion people in the world.

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I personally think that the two people in a marriage are better qualified to create the rule set of their marriage than politicians they don't know, especially when you consider the nature of politicians.

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They won a popularity contest.

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They managed to offend as few people as possible, and they change constantly.

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So you're signing up for the most legally significant thing you're ever going to do other than die with a rule set that no one ever explains to you in advance and that can be changed by people who don't know you based on who won a popularity contest.

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Okay?

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That seems smart to you?

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Or, or...

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do the two of you decide what the rules are going to be?

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And then starting from the beginning, which is where you are if you're doing a prenup because you're about to get married, okay?

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Then you live your life in accordance with that rule set together.

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And when one of you is deviating from it or when a red flag goes up, like you go, hey, how come you're doing it that way?

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Remember we have that rule set.

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And so I like that.

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I think prenups, even having a conversation about a prenup,

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I think, is a very healthy exercise for a couple.

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I cannot tell you how many people since our first conversation have stopped me on the streets of New York City and said, I got into the coolest conversation with my girlfriend about prenups and marriage after I saw you and Steven talking.

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I've had probably like two people a week say that to me.

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It's a very, I always say to these people, I'm like, you do weird stuff in bed.

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Like you're watching Diary of a CEO in bed.

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It's because you know there's other stuff.

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Like I'm not great on the shower thing, but I'm in bed.

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You know, I like Steven too, but that's not the time maybe.

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It is.

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But I guess it is.

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Anytime is a good time.

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Please turn.

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But no, I'm not trying to hurt you.

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I know you broke 7 million.

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I don't want to screw it up.

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But I do think that there is something to this conversation.

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And I do think sometimes like, you know, look, you're in a relationship.

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You've had a hard conversation with your partner.

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Yeah.

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And when you're in it,

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It's not fun.

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And you kind of go like, how are we ever going to get out of this?

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Is this how it's going to be now?

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We have this feeling, and it's awkward, and it's weird.

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And then you make it through it.

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And then the next morning you wake up, and maybe things are still a little weird or something.

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But like, oh yeah.

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I like to believe that then there's this feeling of like, hey, we did that thing.

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Like that thing was a little weird.

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It was a little hard.

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We lost the plot.

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But then we got it back and we're still here.

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Look at us.

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Yeah, look at us.

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Like, yay, go us, you know?

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I think there's real value in that.

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I think that, again, the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are usually the same thing.

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It's hard to talk about when this ends.

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It's actually the thing I'm proud of most of my relationship is exactly what you just described there.

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I'm not proud of our relationship being perfect, because it's not.

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I'm proud of how imperfect it is and how we continually resolve the conflict without coming out the other side resenting each other.

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We come out the other side proud of each other.

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We're like, you know that meme where the, I think it was the Hot Ones meme where they're like, look at us, who would have thought?

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And that's like the thing that my girlfriend turns to me and says continually is, I'm so proud of...

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how much shit we've got through.

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Because she refers to it like the roots have got even longer.

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And going back to your conversation about prenups, it reminds me of what we were talking about before we started recording.

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This idea that people don't want to confront it, because you tried to get a stand at a wedding convention as a divorce lawyer.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So I want to say one thing about what you said before that, because your verbiage is very interesting to me.

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Because you said, you know, in my relationship, you know, it's not perfect, but I'm proud of X, Y, and Z.

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And I have to tell you, like, I don't know, that sounds pretty perfect.

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Like, I think that things are imperfect.

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Like, and that's perfect.

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Like, there's no such thing as a perfect relationship.

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Like, ever.

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And that's perfect.

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Like, it's perfect.

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Like, I genuinely believe we're perfect.

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Like, I think we're all flawed and we're perfect.

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Like, because we're authentic, we're real.

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So I think that's a really important, if people, if perfection is the standard, we will all fall short.

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I think the reality is that we are all perfectly imperfect and that's really beautiful.

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But yes, the wedding, so in the United States, I don't know in the UK, but in the United States, we have these things, they're called wedding bazaars or wedding expos or wedding fairs.

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And somebody came up with this and it's a brilliant business move, which is you rent a gigantic hall or a small hall, depending on where, some of them are done at like giant convention centers.

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And, you know, people who are associated with the wedding industrial complex, you know, they pay to have a booth.

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So there's photographers, there's bakers, there's—and, you know, every table has, like, something.

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The photographers have different pictures.

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The cake people might have, like, little samples of cake—

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You know, there's all the little grab bags and things that people give out as wedding gifts.

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There's, you know, different travel things related to your honeymoon and where you might go.

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There's different websites for, you know, your registry.

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Like, there's so many wedding-related, wedding-adjacent businesses.

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This is a multibillion-dollar industry.

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So I reached out to, like, four or five different smaller and bigger wedding expos.

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And I said, in some in substance...

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I'd like to get a table.

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And they said, great, photographer, baker, what do you do?

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And I said, oh, I'm a lawyer, and I do divorce and family law, but it's just going to be themed around prenups.

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It's not going to be in any way negative about marriage.

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It's going to be, you know, just a congratulations on your engagement.

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Have you talked about a prenup?

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And then I'll have brochures and things, and you can, you know, make sure that they pass muster, that I don't say anything that would be offensive to anyone.

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I don't want anyone to be uncomfortable, any other vendors to be uncomfortable.

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But there's literally hundreds of vendors at this thing.

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So there's no reason—

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Not one wedding expo would rent a table to me.

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They refused my money.

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They would not take it.

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They would not take it.

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No matter how flowery I said I'd make the language, no matter how respectful to the institution of marriage I said I would be, they would not let me buy a table.

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They wouldn't take my money.

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And those tables are not cheap.

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It's thousands of dollars to get a table at a wedding expo.

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They would not take my money.

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Even though almost 60% of people end in divorce.

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And it's like almost an inevitability.

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The probability is there's going to be a conversation about how we separate.

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As I've said before, every single marriage ends.

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It ends in death or divorce.

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The majority of them end in divorce.

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The majority of them end in divorce.

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Why wouldn't you allow me to have a table that just says...

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If you'd like to have a prenup, here.

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I'm not even trying to sell a prenup on you, like you're getting engaged, you need a prenup.

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It's just, have you talked about a prenup?

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And information about that, they would not even let me in the room.

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And because it shatters the illusion, it's reality.

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They don't like reality.

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They don't see reality.

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as what it is, which I think, by the way, is quite romantic.

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I think there's something very nice about talking to your partner about, you know what I'm afraid of?

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Losing you.

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I don't want to lose you to death, even though I know someday I have to.

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But I don't want to lose you to divorce either.

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But man, almost 60% of marriages end in divorce.

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And if we got divorced...

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Like, what would we be?

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Like, I hope we wouldn't hate each other.

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Like, I hope I'd still love you and care about you, or I'd still want you to be well.

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Even if you left me, I wouldn't hate you.

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Like, I don't have one ex-girlfriend that I go, man, I hate that person.

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Like, I wish all of them joy.

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I hope they're all happy.

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Like, our chapter together ended, but I wish all of them joy.

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People don't like to go into things...

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without optimism, though.

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And the conversation around, should we get a prenup, almost sounds like, I think we're gonna break up someday.

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I think you can hear it that way.

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But I don't think it has to be that.

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I agree with you about the optimism.

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I think people would prefer to look at the bright side of things and to be optimistic.

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And I am not suggesting, like,

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I don't believe in fairy tales.

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I'm a realist.

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That doesn't mean I get up every day just thinking about nothing but death and divorce and how it's like, life is beautiful and life's meant to be lived.

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And like, you don't wanna sit, I'm not gonna sit at a wedding and be like, do you know how many percentage of this people are gonna get divorced?

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I don't view it that way.

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I think it's wonderful.

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But be realistic about things.

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Like I don't wanna get ill, but I have a physical every year.

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I go to the doctor every year.

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Like, I like to know what's going on.

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I like to be a realist.

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I like to, I don't plan on crashing my car, but I like knowing that I have a seatbelt and an airbag.

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And by the way, if my seatbelt and airbag aren't working, I would like to know in advance, because I'm driving as if they're going to work.

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If you told me, by the way, Jim, your seatbelt and your airbag aren't working, I would drive very, very, very carefully.

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Right.

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So I think it's the same thing.

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Like, just we can't have an honest conversation and be optimistic.

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Divorce in the U.S. is very different from divorce in the U.K. And I actually learned what I think it is.

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I learned this from watching several things.

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But one video comes to mind from a couple of weeks ago.

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You'll know the case.

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There's a black actor who is currently posting a lot on his social media about how his wife is like chasing him down for child support.

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Oh, yes.

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Yes.

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Yes, I don't remember his name.

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I'm bad at celebrity names.

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I'm bad at celebrity names.

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Unless I represent them.

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But yes, I know who he is.

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And he said on a couple of shows, but he went on his Instagram and said, like, my wife, who I've broken up with, who, like, basically doesn't really have a job at the moment or is making some money from some Instagram work, is she's got this, like, pack of lawyers who email me and demand to see my bank statements because...

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I've been doing well lately.

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I've got a couple of new movies and stuff, and she wants to make sure she gets more money for me and the kids based on his success.

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And I never realized it was like that.

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I never realized that.

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Oh, yeah.

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Oh, yeah, it's modifiable.

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It's modifiable.

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Child support, for example, is modifiable every three years when there's a 30% change in income up or down.

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So if I have a wife, and then we have four kids, and then I break up with her, and when I break up with her, I'm making a million dollars a year.

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And then I'm making $100 million a year.

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Goes up.

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Child support goes up.

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To like what?

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What are the numbers?

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Depends on the percentages.

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In New York, one child is 17%, two is 25%, three is 29%, and four is 31% of your gross income.

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Of my gross income?

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Your gross income.

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Less FICA, 0.0765.

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Social Security and Medicare.

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If my gross income is $100 million.

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So theoretically, there are caps on the combined parental income.

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Everywhere.

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Yes, pretty much.

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But...

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Judges have a tremendous amount of discretion based on a variety of factors, including things like what was the lifestyle of the children during the marriage?

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What are the reasonable needs of the children?

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Like celebrity divorces, I will tell you, there are some legitimate separate needs that celebrities, the children of celebrities need.

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Like they, you know, security, for example.

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What's the biggest child support payments you've ever heard of?

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Well, I mean, Diddy had, I think it was $20,000 a month for a period of time.

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He's kind of a well-known one, and it was very well publicized.

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The most I've ever had in a case is I had a client who got $65,000 a month in child sports.

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But it covered a lot of things.

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It covered a portion of private school tuition.

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It covered a security detail.

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It covered, you know, these were very, very high net worth, you know, public figures.

223
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What kid needs $65,000 a month?

224
00:12:58.449 --> 00:12:59.629
Well, the kid doesn't get the money.

225
00:12:59.689 --> 00:13:01.790
The parent who has primary physical custody gets the money.

226
00:13:01.891 --> 00:13:03.231
And they can do with it whatever they want.

227
00:13:03.391 --> 00:13:03.712
Correct.

228
00:13:03.752 --> 00:13:05.152
So they could go spend it in Vegas?

229
00:13:05.593 --> 00:13:05.953
Correct.

230
00:13:05.993 --> 00:13:06.913
That's not fair.

231
00:13:06.933 --> 00:13:08.234
You should have to provide receipts.

232
00:13:08.514 --> 00:13:17.620
Well, what I've always said is, I mean, first of all, the system is complicated enough without people having to provide receipts to check the math of a person and what they're spending the child support on.

233
00:13:17.640 --> 00:13:20.702
Like, it's already overwhelming enough and it's already difficult enough.

234
00:13:20.762 --> 00:13:25.746
Like, listen, what you're proposing would create a lot of additional work for me, so I appreciate it.

235
00:13:26.286 --> 00:13:31.730
But it is, from my perspective, it is a potentially very...

236
00:13:32.552 --> 00:13:33.433
Dangerous thing.

237
00:13:33.613 --> 00:13:41.358
What I always tell people is getting married without a prenup is a fairly risky activity.

238
00:13:42.258 --> 00:13:55.627
Having a child with someone is the most risky activity in relationships in terms of the amount of emotional and financial damage a person can do to you.

239
00:13:55.687 --> 00:13:56.408
Have a kid with them.

240
00:13:57.270 --> 00:13:59.713
Having a kid with somebody, they can weaponize that child.

241
00:13:59.753 --> 00:14:01.135
They can alienate that child.

242
00:14:01.515 --> 00:14:06.101
They can use that child's needs to piggyback onto financial needs.

243
00:14:06.161 --> 00:14:10.166
There's so much stuff a person can do to torture you if they have a kid with you.

244
00:14:10.606 --> 00:14:14.331
And there's so much legal wrangling and rambling to do.

245
00:14:14.731 --> 00:14:15.572
And what I'll tell you is it…

246
00:14:18.266 --> 00:14:33.531
You know, I have a client who spent somewhere in the realm of $100,000 in legal fees arguing over whether Thanksgiving should begin on Wednesday and end on Sunday or whether it would begin on Thursday morning and end on Thursday evening.

247
00:14:34.291 --> 00:14:38.392
Now, that person's worth, you know, $700,000 or $800,000,000.

248
00:14:38.632 --> 00:14:40.453
So $100,000 to them is not a lot of money.

249
00:14:42.071 --> 00:14:45.475
Most people, myself included, I'd just eat turkey another day.

250
00:14:45.855 --> 00:14:49.458
Like, it's not worth that amount of money, right, to have that argument.

251
00:14:51.100 --> 00:14:58.547
That's why having a kid with someone, you're opening up the door to potentially tremendous amount of battles.

252
00:14:58.988 --> 00:14:59.648
Whereas...

253
00:15:00.575 --> 00:15:08.040
If you're arguing over a $50,000 bank account and you spend $30,000 in legal fees, even if you won, you only won $20,000.

254
00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:09.881
If you lost, you lost significant.

255
00:15:10.141 --> 00:15:13.943
So it forces a certain rationality into the transaction.

256
00:15:14.203 --> 00:15:19.046
Whereas your time with your kids, people could attribute whatever value they want to that.

257
00:15:19.086 --> 00:15:24.390
I've had clients who fought over minuscule things about children that to me would be minuscule.

258
00:15:24.590 --> 00:15:26.191
To them were incredibly important.

259
00:15:26.863 --> 00:15:30.556
You said that the two big reasons why people divorce are infidelity and money.

260
00:15:30.937 --> 00:15:31.117
Yeah.

261
00:15:31.645 --> 00:15:33.386
Is it a loss of money, a lack of money?

262
00:15:33.426 --> 00:15:35.187
The person goes poor?

263
00:15:35.487 --> 00:15:36.588
That's a big piece of it.

264
00:15:36.968 --> 00:15:43.552
Losing money, gambling money or losing money unexpectedly, bad business and investment decisions.

265
00:15:43.572 --> 00:15:51.497
There was a period of time where I did a lot of divorces because people decided they were going to try to be day traders and all of a sudden people, you know, they were like barring against retirement accounts.

266
00:15:51.517 --> 00:15:52.037
Crypto?

267
00:15:52.057 --> 00:15:57.260
Yeah, they were learning the hard way that if you short stocks, there's almost no limit to how much money you can lose.

268
00:15:58.120 --> 00:15:58.861
Crypto divorces?

269
00:15:58.961 --> 00:15:59.761
Crypto's big.

270
00:15:59.801 --> 00:16:00.702
I did a couple of crypto.

271
00:16:01.022 --> 00:16:14.161
where crypto became very important and whether it was on a hard wallet or whether it was, I mean, hiding money with crypto very, some years ago when crypto was first sort of on the scene, when I really should have been buying Bitcoin because it was like, you know, $3 or $5.

272
00:16:16.464 --> 00:16:22.509
There was a period of time where most divorce lawyers and most judges didn't understand what crypto even was.

273
00:16:22.629 --> 00:16:35.420
I mean, try to explain to a 75-year-old judge who has an AOL email address what cryptocurrency was and the difference between Ethereum and Bitcoin, like, and why you're concerned that they might have these funds on a hard wallet at all.

274
00:16:35.520 --> 00:16:39.165
And they're looking at you going like, well, I have no idea what this is.

275
00:16:39.185 --> 00:16:40.907
So it's tricky.

276
00:16:40.947 --> 00:16:46.335
I mean, these are the things we, as a divorce lawyer, one of the things that makes it a very exciting job is that we're constantly –

277
00:16:47.553 --> 00:16:49.936
we're getting an education in all of these things.

278
00:16:50.016 --> 00:17:01.068
Like I represent, I remember I represented a surgeon and I learned everything about how surgeons get paid, how they make money, how they hide money, what their expenses might be.

279
00:17:01.568 --> 00:17:03.971
And so then the next time I did a surgeon, I'm like, oh, I know this.

280
00:17:04.191 --> 00:17:07.835
You know, the first time I represented someone who owned a hedge fund or was a partner in a hedge fund.

281
00:17:08.135 --> 00:17:12.419
I had to learn about how capital accounts work and how people are paid and where you might be able to hide money.

282
00:17:12.439 --> 00:17:21.367
Have you ever seen that where someone is like publicly thought to be a billionaire and then you look at their bank statements during a divorce and you realize that they've basically managed to hide everything.

283
00:17:21.387 --> 00:17:22.467
So they're basically broke.

284
00:17:22.508 --> 00:17:23.568
It's all in someone else's name.

285
00:17:24.049 --> 00:17:26.191
Well, yeah, there's two permutations of that.

286
00:17:26.451 --> 00:17:34.198
One is people who are publicly incredibly wealthy and then in reality, they're leveraged to the Hilton broke, like way broke.

287
00:17:35.078 --> 00:17:38.421
That happens a lot and that happens a lot with celebrities.

288
00:17:38.461 --> 00:17:47.009
Celebrities are very often leveraged to the hilt because they had a hit record or they had a hit movie or two and then they think, Oh, everything I do is gonna be like this.

289
00:17:47.469 --> 00:17:57.798
And so they just go out and buy tons of stuff and there's always people who loan you money, you know, especially if you're a public figure and you have some money, right, a couple of million bucks, you can get a couple million more real easy.

290
00:17:58.298 --> 00:18:01.160
So, and then it just very rapidly, and they buy everybody else.

291
00:18:01.180 --> 00:18:07.465
They have, you know, there's always clingers around the person, you know, the whole entourage that a lot of whom are siphoning money off of people.

292
00:18:07.505 --> 00:18:12.408
So there's a lot of people that look very wealthy and are dead broke.

293
00:18:12.588 --> 00:18:13.889
And I have a lot of those.

294
00:18:13.969 --> 00:18:19.853
How does that play out in court when the wife finds out that their partner or the husband finds out that their wife was implicated?

295
00:18:19.873 --> 00:18:20.594
They're not happy.

296
00:18:21.815 --> 00:18:22.695
They're not happy.

297
00:18:23.016 --> 00:18:23.396
And...

298
00:18:25.017 --> 00:18:28.239
And it's hard because they think they have proof of something.

299
00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:32.121
Like they're like, but look, here's a picture of him with a Ferrari.

300
00:18:32.141 --> 00:18:36.684
And it's like, right, I can show you the papers that he doesn't, he leases that Ferrari.

301
00:18:36.744 --> 00:18:38.385
Like it's this much of a car payment.

302
00:18:38.465 --> 00:18:44.169
Like I had a guy who had like three Bentleys and a couple of, you know, like McLaren, he had crazy cars.

303
00:18:44.229 --> 00:18:46.130
And yeah, it was all leveraged to the hilt.

304
00:18:46.190 --> 00:18:47.911
It was not, he didn't own them, you know.

305
00:18:47.931 --> 00:18:49.472
What's the second permutation of that?

306
00:18:49.612 --> 00:18:52.114
The second permutation is when someone,

307
00:18:55.488 --> 00:18:56.248
When they've hidden the money?

308
00:18:56.568 --> 00:18:57.108
Yeah.

309
00:18:57.548 --> 00:19:16.515
I'm trying to find the right adjective, that they're enough of a sociopath, that they're enough of a malignant narcissist, or they're enough of a careful planner that they have created structures that make it almost impossible for their spouse to get anything in the divorce.

310
00:19:17.375 --> 00:19:19.676
So some of the things that people do

311
00:19:23.032 --> 00:19:30.184
in the ultra-high net worth space for generational wealth preservation and tax avoidance

312
00:19:32.327 --> 00:19:36.168
have second order effects when they get divorced, right?

313
00:19:36.328 --> 00:19:38.749
So a lot of wealthy people don't own very much of anything.

314
00:19:39.429 --> 00:19:54.192
They own companies that own properties and they have an interest in a trust for the benefit of their great grandchildren that owns companies that own properties that they then borrow against.

315
00:19:54.292 --> 00:19:56.633
Like there's their whole structure

316
00:19:57.573 --> 00:20:04.800
is a very complex, and they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to trusts and estates attorneys and accountants, so they pay almost nothing in taxes.

317
00:20:05.381 --> 00:20:08.965
And so that they will have no estate issues, they will have intergenerational wealth.

318
00:20:09.005 --> 00:20:18.715
Well, those things make a lot of sense from a wealth preservation and estate planning perspective, but they make a divorce really complicated.

319
00:20:19.175 --> 00:20:21.516
because it's no longer marital money.

320
00:20:21.956 --> 00:20:30.919
It's owned by this trust, it's owned by this corporation, it's owned by, I only have this percent interest in this thing, which is why we both benefited from the taxation of it.

321
00:20:31.239 --> 00:20:45.404
So that's where it gets like a little, what I do is a fascinating job because we work with, very brilliant forensic accountants who kind of go in and try to recreate whether something was done

322
00:20:46.264 --> 00:20:57.534
as a fraudulent transfer in contemplation of divorce, or whether something was done for good faith reasons and, you know, was done in a way that was designed to benefit the marriage as opposed to as divorce planning.

323
00:20:57.654 --> 00:21:00.016
There must be scenarios where someone goes into a divorce.

324
00:21:00.456 --> 00:21:01.917
I think I'm divorcing you, let's say.

325
00:21:02.358 --> 00:21:04.640
And I think in divorcing you, I'm going to get a big payout.

326
00:21:04.660 --> 00:21:07.882
But it turns out in divorcing you that you get a big payout because I've got more money than you.

327
00:21:07.902 --> 00:21:08.543
Yeah, it happens a lot.

328
00:21:08.643 --> 00:21:09.284
That happens a lot.

329
00:21:09.524 --> 00:21:16.829
I've actually, I wrote an article for one of the women's magazines called The Last Remaining Feminist Taboo.

330
00:21:17.590 --> 00:21:22.254
And it talks about a lot of female clients who are paying alimony to their husbands.

331
00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:24.760
And it stings.

332
00:21:25.261 --> 00:21:31.563
You know, you could have a woman who's like a Bella Abzug, like Gloria Steinem level feminist.

333
00:21:32.303 --> 00:21:36.304
And when she gets told, you know, that like, yeah, you gotta pay him alimony.

334
00:21:36.324 --> 00:21:37.865
They're like, I'm sorry, what?

335
00:21:38.225 --> 00:21:40.025
Like, no, he's a man, he could work.

336
00:21:40.345 --> 00:21:42.666
Like he can work, he's the men who get alimony.

337
00:21:42.706 --> 00:21:47.948
And you're like, no, gender is a construct and sex is actually, you know, a construct socially.

338
00:21:48.868 --> 00:21:56.613
You're a CFO of a company, and he's a really cute, long-haired musician who you married because he's, like, fun, you know?

339
00:21:56.713 --> 00:22:04.878
Like, and you earn 4,000 times what he earns annually, and so you have to pay him alimony because it's just math.

340
00:22:04.938 --> 00:22:06.039
It's God's gender blind.

341
00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:06.820
It's just math.

342
00:22:06.840 --> 00:22:09.641
And they're like, yeah, no, I am not paying alimony.

343
00:22:09.681 --> 00:22:10.182
He's a man.

344
00:22:10.202 --> 00:22:11.042
He's got a strong back.

345
00:22:11.062 --> 00:22:11.683
Tell him to get a job.

346
00:22:12.063 --> 00:22:16.666
By the way, I've had men in that situation go, yeah, I'm not taking alimony.

347
00:22:17.030 --> 00:22:17.310
Really?

348
00:22:17.350 --> 00:22:17.851
They won't take it?

349
00:22:17.891 --> 00:22:18.532
They won't take it.

350
00:22:18.832 --> 00:22:20.574
Alimony is like the... Spousal support.

351
00:22:20.955 --> 00:22:23.598
Okay, like child support?

352
00:22:23.658 --> 00:22:27.282
No, it's to maintain the marital lifestyle.

353
00:22:27.402 --> 00:22:30.826
It's in order to rehabilitate your earnings so that you can be...

354
00:22:30.846 --> 00:22:35.571
So, for example, I marry a woman from the UK who's a physician.

355
00:22:35.591 --> 00:22:36.072
Yeah.

356
00:22:36.172 --> 00:22:39.693
And now she's coming to the United States because we're in love and she's marrying me.

357
00:22:40.293 --> 00:22:45.834
And she is going to lose her license to practice medicine because she's coming to the United States and it's a different licensure.

358
00:22:46.214 --> 00:22:52.555
Okay, so now she moves here in reliance on us being married and we're married for a couple of years and then we divorce.

359
00:22:53.195 --> 00:23:01.196
She's going to need, because I now make a lot more money than her, she's going to need some money to get her back to a place where she's back to her earning capacity.

360
00:23:01.556 --> 00:23:04.677
So if I married Taylor Swift and we're together for 20 years, do I get half?

361
00:23:05.353 --> 00:23:07.935
You do not get half usually, no, no.

362
00:23:07.955 --> 00:23:11.177
I mean, first of all, she has too many good lawyers, I'd imagine if you're able to get half.

363
00:23:11.597 --> 00:23:16.440
But you would certainly, I mean, there was a- How much could you get me?

364
00:23:17.020 --> 00:23:18.621
How much could I get you from Taylor Swift?

365
00:23:18.641 --> 00:23:20.062
I'd have to know how much Taylor Swift has.

366
00:23:20.142 --> 00:23:22.804
I also don't think she's, she's never made it down the aisle yet, has she?

367
00:23:22.904 --> 00:23:27.387
But if I take her down the aisle and then we stay together 20 years and I come back to her and say, James, it's time.

368
00:23:27.767 --> 00:23:28.448
Here's what I'm going to tell you.

369
00:23:28.468 --> 00:23:29.789
I'm going to get you as much as possible.

370
00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:34.252
I can't promise you anything, but I am promising you I'm going to get you as much as I can.

371
00:23:34.272 --> 00:23:36.294
I mean, you know, I'd have to know.

372
00:23:36.374 --> 00:23:38.216
I'd have to know what the finances are.

373
00:23:38.376 --> 00:23:38.856
Billion dollars.

374
00:23:38.896 --> 00:23:39.377
I would have to.

375
00:23:39.437 --> 00:23:40.398
She has a billion dollars.

376
00:23:40.438 --> 00:23:40.818
In cash.

377
00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:44.061
Billion dollars in cash acquired during the marriage or prior to the marriage?

378
00:23:44.081 --> 00:23:44.721
During the marriage.

379
00:23:45.061 --> 00:23:46.423
All acquired during the marriage, you get in half.

380
00:23:47.323 --> 00:23:48.204
You get in half.

381
00:23:48.324 --> 00:23:48.964
You get in half.

382
00:23:49.024 --> 00:23:52.127
Listen, Adele's ex-husband did very well.

383
00:23:53.168 --> 00:23:55.469
Kelly Clarkson's ex-husband did very well.

384
00:23:55.529 --> 00:23:57.070
It depends on how quite well.

385
00:23:58.011 --> 00:23:58.452
Look it up.

386
00:23:58.492 --> 00:23:59.012
It's out there.

387
00:23:59.072 --> 00:24:00.773
I don't remember the exact numbers, but it's out there.

388
00:24:01.394 --> 00:24:02.955
The reality is, is those were people.

389
00:24:03.115 --> 00:24:07.458
She had her most successful tour at the time during the marriage.

390
00:24:07.498 --> 00:24:10.961
She had her most successful album at the time during the marriage.

391
00:24:11.221 --> 00:24:13.163
It's all a question of where things land in...

392
00:24:13.823 --> 00:24:15.563
in the trajectory of someone's life.

393
00:24:15.824 --> 00:24:24.145
If you marry someone when they're on the come up, like Jeff Bezos, great example, like largest divorce settlement probably paid in history was to his ex-wife.

394
00:24:24.205 --> 00:24:24.506
Why?

395
00:24:24.786 --> 00:24:28.947
Because Amazon wasn't a thing when they got together, right?

396
00:24:29.247 --> 00:24:32.247
So that was, she was there for the whole trajectory.

397
00:24:32.587 --> 00:24:37.889
If he got remarried now, she's not going to get half because she wasn't there.

398
00:24:37.929 --> 00:24:41.029
There's a premarital component to that that is significant.

399
00:24:41.049 --> 00:24:43.210
If you got me 500 million from Taylor Swift then,

400
00:24:43.910 --> 00:24:45.170
Would you take like a commission?

401
00:24:45.190 --> 00:24:46.371
No, it doesn't work that way.

402
00:24:46.391 --> 00:24:48.351
We're prohibited from doing that.

403
00:24:48.371 --> 00:24:49.231
We get paid by the hour.

404
00:24:49.371 --> 00:24:50.011
You're prohibited.

405
00:24:50.031 --> 00:24:51.452
I am an hourly wage earner.

406
00:24:51.472 --> 00:24:52.652
Like if I worked at McDonald's.

407
00:24:53.052 --> 00:24:54.212
Who prohibits you?

408
00:24:54.952 --> 00:24:55.332
The rules.

409
00:24:55.352 --> 00:24:56.033
The rules that govern.

410
00:24:56.473 --> 00:24:57.753
And by the way, rightfully so.

411
00:24:58.093 --> 00:24:58.293
Why?

412
00:24:58.613 --> 00:25:09.555
Because you otherwise would create an incentive for the lawyer to maximize recovery for their client rather than the recovery that makes sense for their client.

413
00:25:09.715 --> 00:25:11.716
So like I've had cases where...

414
00:25:12.616 --> 00:25:25.199
the cash payout I get for my client is lower because I want to get them more support, like child support or spousal support, or I want to get them more of the real estate rather than the payout.

415
00:25:25.779 --> 00:25:32.560
So really what we're supposed to do as lawyers is not be invested in the percentage of the result.

416
00:25:32.600 --> 00:25:35.421
Personal injury lawyers, like you slip and fall, that's different.

417
00:25:35.761 --> 00:25:38.161
Last question for me is regarding me and my partner.

418
00:25:38.341 --> 00:25:41.662
I never want to end up in your consultation room.

419
00:25:42.992 --> 00:25:43.893
We never want to go there.

420
00:25:45.134 --> 00:25:52.539
If you were to give me one piece of advice to prevent, and it can't be don't get married, to prevent me and my partner ever ending up in your consultation room.

421
00:25:52.679 --> 00:25:54.080
It wouldn't be don't get married.

422
00:25:54.180 --> 00:25:55.301
Oh, OK. What would it be?

423
00:25:55.821 --> 00:25:56.342
Pay attention.

424
00:25:56.902 --> 00:25:57.602
Just pay attention.

425
00:25:57.883 --> 00:25:59.003
Right now you're paying attention.

426
00:25:59.844 --> 00:26:00.785
Like you're paying attention.

427
00:26:00.965 --> 00:26:01.906
She's important to you.

428
00:26:01.926 --> 00:26:02.786
You're important to her.

429
00:26:03.246 --> 00:26:04.828
You're interested and you're interesting.

430
00:26:05.488 --> 00:26:10.712
You know, I would say pay attention and pay attention to three things.

431
00:26:10.732 --> 00:26:10.992
One.

432
00:26:12.058 --> 00:26:14.880
The you, the me, and the we.

433
00:26:15.441 --> 00:26:16.882
Because those are three different things.

434
00:26:17.423 --> 00:26:20.966
Like, you be you because you're who she fell in love with.

435
00:26:21.366 --> 00:26:23.748
And don't let you go too far from shore.

436
00:26:23.908 --> 00:26:25.229
Like, you be you.

437
00:26:25.790 --> 00:26:32.756
Don't let anything in the world, don't let her, don't let the we, don't let any of it stop you from being you because you're who she fell in love with.

438
00:26:34.036 --> 00:26:35.717
And the she, right?

439
00:26:35.817 --> 00:26:36.318
Who she is.

440
00:26:36.338 --> 00:26:37.699
So there's you, there's me, there's we.

441
00:26:38.159 --> 00:26:40.481
So her, remember who she is.

442
00:26:40.541 --> 00:26:41.302
Let her be her.

443
00:26:41.742 --> 00:26:43.724
Like, make sure that she takes time to be her.

444
00:26:43.744 --> 00:26:47.066
Make sure you give space for her to be her because that's who you fell in love with.

445
00:26:47.586 --> 00:26:51.209
And let that person change, just like you might change sometimes from time to time.

446
00:26:51.229 --> 00:26:54.272
And if things change too much, I'm not saying resist it.

447
00:26:54.812 --> 00:26:55.913
But note it.

448
00:26:56.133 --> 00:26:56.773
Pay attention.

449
00:26:57.153 --> 00:26:58.314
Say, hey, this is going on.

450
00:26:58.374 --> 00:26:59.355
Is that a good thing?

451
00:26:59.375 --> 00:27:00.115
Is it a bad thing?

452
00:27:00.135 --> 00:27:01.616
Like, you know, let's just notice it.

453
00:27:01.636 --> 00:27:02.457
Let's just pay attention.

454
00:27:02.797 --> 00:27:03.437
And then the we.

455
00:27:03.658 --> 00:27:04.878
Like, the you, the me, and the we.

456
00:27:04.978 --> 00:27:07.160
Like, talk about, you know, pay attention to the we.

457
00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:08.641
Make sure we're watering the plant.

458
00:27:09.141 --> 00:27:11.943
Like, make sure that... That would be the only advice I'd ever give to anybody.

459
00:27:11.983 --> 00:27:13.724
It has nothing to do with marriage.

460
00:27:13.764 --> 00:27:14.985
It has to do with connection.

461
00:27:15.365 --> 00:27:16.465
It has to do with love.

462
00:27:16.546 --> 00:27:17.906
It has to do with...

463
00:27:18.447 --> 00:27:19.788
There's a reason why...

464
00:27:20.688 --> 00:27:22.289
You found the we, right?

465
00:27:22.389 --> 00:27:26.031
Like you can be you all by yourself and she can be her all by herself.

466
00:27:26.532 --> 00:27:31.595
But there's value in being we and seeing each other's blind spots.

467
00:27:31.895 --> 00:27:36.397
And if there's value in that, treat it like something valuable.

468
00:27:36.678 --> 00:27:42.801
Don't let the world, don't let your own strengths and weaknesses, don't let anything pull you off of that.

469
00:27:42.861 --> 00:27:43.582
Pay attention.

470
00:27:44.202 --> 00:27:47.124
to you, the me, and the we, and don't be afraid.

471
00:27:47.164 --> 00:27:50.226
The hard thing to do and the right thing to do are usually the same thing.

472
00:27:50.526 --> 00:27:53.248
So if it's harder to talk about it, it's harder to point it out.

473
00:27:53.288 --> 00:27:55.770
It's harder to say, hey, are we okay?

474
00:27:55.890 --> 00:27:56.610
Is everything good?

475
00:27:56.690 --> 00:27:59.632
Like, you know, if that's harder, do that, lean into that.

476
00:28:02.334 --> 00:28:06.757
What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode.

477
00:28:06.897 --> 00:28:10.059
If you want to listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below.

478
00:28:10.239 --> 00:28:11.059
Check the description.

479
00:28:11.360 --> 00:28:11.700
Thank you.