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I'll give you a little anecdote.

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I don't think anecdotes describe the full reality, but it was a moment for me that was very interesting.

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My younger son was in kindergarten.

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He had a very best friend.

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I was convinced he would go into first grade with that same friend.

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No.

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I went to the principal.

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I said, why did you separate them?

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They were getting so long.

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It was such a beautiful friendship that could become, you know, my childhood friend like I have from age six.

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She said, they need to learn to make new friends each time.

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I said, he's not being trained for mobility.

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He's a five-year-old who is being trained for long-term relationships.

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It's not the same.

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And it was really clear.

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That was the idea.

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The idea is not how do you continue a long-standing friendship?

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It's how do you make new friends all the time?

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I thought that was just an amazing cultural encounter.

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Wow.

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So, wow.

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So we're actually training our young to suck it up and get over it and move on.

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The quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives.

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This is an idea that Esther Perel has been trying to instill in us for decades.

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She is the guru of human relationships, and she's been trying to teach us in all of her work how we can have successful romantic relationships.

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I've known Esther for years, and candidly, when we've gone out for dinner, I have definitely taken advantage of our friendship and asked her for relationship advice, and it's always been amazing.

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And we agree on so many things, which is why I was so excited to have her on the podcast.

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Our work overlaps so much.

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We both believe that the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives in our personal lives and the quality of our lives at work.

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Esther believes it so much, she's just launched a new product, a set of question cards called Where Should We Begin at Work?

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So we go deep.

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We talk about relationships, happy relationships, struggling relationships, all the kinds of relationships, and how we learn to navigate relationships, how it will benefit us in our personal lives and in our professional lives.

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lives.

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This is a bit of optimism.

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Esther, you know you're one of my favorite people in the world, right?

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It is a mutual experience.

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You're one of those friends that you and I have known each other a long time.

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I saw you a lot when I lived in New York.

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It's been more difficult since I moved to L.A.

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But you're one of those people, you're one of those friends that we don't talk as often as people think we do.

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But every time we talk, we pick up where we left off.

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That is true.

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It's as if no time has passed every single time.

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Actually, before we talk, we look at each other and we smile.

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A kind of a smile of recognition and complicity.

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You're right.

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Every time I see you, whether it's an event or even just on the screen, you're absolutely right.

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My first reaction is a smile.

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It's like a baby being shown a toy.

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I was thinking this morning as I was getting ready.

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what like I there's actually a very genuine question that I have for you that pretty much you and only you could answer.

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You've been doing what you do for a long time.

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which means you have been helping couples and helping people in relationships and overcome difficulties that they have through many changes of culture and politics and world events.

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I'm so curious what the dynamic of relationships has changed over the course of a career.

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I mean, the arc is very full of changes.

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So I arrived in the United States in 83.

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And we are talking about just a few years since divorce has been legalized, no-fold divorce.

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That in itself is an enormous change to...

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the structure of marriage and family life, because the rate of divorce increases dramatically, primarily spurred by women.

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Women are often economically independent, even on every level of the scale, to decide that relationships and marriages in particular need to be emotionally fulfilling.

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because it's not just a material reliance.

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Contraception has been democratized.

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So child, you know, reproduction is now controlled.

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And reproduction can be...

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technologically assisted and it can be technologically stopped.

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So on both sides, sexuality fundamentally changes its meaning from the sole domain of biology to now becoming socialized and becoming a property of the self, something that you define your sexuality, not just a part of your condition.

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People go from five, six, seven children to one, two potentially, or even the choice of none.

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sexuality shifts from a marital duty and has already been, but now even more to a marital, to, to a sexual duty, to a sexual desire, sorry, from duty to desire.

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So that's, that's just a few small things in the, in the romantic realm work at that time.

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is shifting from, you know, is basically in the midst of what we call the service economy, from the production economy of the land and the agriculture to now a service economy.

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And by the way, so is marriage.

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Marriage becomes a service economy too.

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We want affection.

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We want trust.

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We want...

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Things that have to do with the quality of the emotional connection between the people.

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And from there, gradually, these two units, which are really going parallel, but also cross, we kind of have a dual revolution taking place at the same time.

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Work goes from production to service to identity, an identity economy in which we turn to work together.

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for a host of existential needs that used to be part of our religious lives and our communal lives that now become part of work, purpose, meaning, belonging, community, things that had nothing to do with what we- You and I have both talked about this, how we used to get purpose from church, we used to get community from our neighbors,

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We had bowling leagues for our friends.

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All of the church attendance declines, bowling leagues disappear.

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And now we demand that work fulfill all of those needs.

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And we deferred marriage per se, marriage or committed relationships by 10 years.

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So work is the primary hub for your social connection and for all these other needs.

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It's an amazing thing to observe.

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This is all before still the internet.

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Then comes internet, then comes social media, then comes AI.

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I mean, at every level, relationships change, because I think it's all my work on relationships.

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What were the common, when you arrived in 83 and you started your practice, what were the common themes in the 80s that, again, just common themes of the couples that would come see you in the 80s?

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I mean, themes were always, you know, communication, for example, it's always been a theme or conflict.

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Or basically the origins of couples, this is actually an interesting tease, the origins of couples therapy.

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Originally, people came to see you as a couple because somebody had said that there were issues with the child and that maybe they were not all about the child, but they were actually about the couple.

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But in fact, couples therapy really became a discipline on its own when for the first time, the survival of the family depended on the happiness of the couple.

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Because as long as people were married for life and you couldn't get out and there was no exit, it didn't really matter if you got along, you didn't get along.

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It would be nice.

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But in any case, you were stuck.

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Once you could leave, you needed the relationship to really be much better.

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And that meant that the only way the family will stay together in its original constellation is if the couple is relatively content.

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And so that brought couples more and more to come to couples therapy, be it issues of conflict, addiction, violence, communication, sexuality, sexual incompatibility, you name it.

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You know, in my time around it was the first conversations about family leave.

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Yeah.

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There was no maternity leave or paternity leave in the US.

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The first presentations around infertility and fertility issues and different ways of conception.

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The first conversations in the office, I'm saying the first, not in the general, around issues of non-monogamy and polyamory.

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So all of this and the personal development movement, the growth movement of the 60s that completely seeped into every aspect of the way we think we deserve to be happy.

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This is...

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This is an amazing insight here, which is the correlation between being stuck in something and desire for happiness or pursuit of happiness.

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That when you're stuck in something, happiness is a nice to have, but you don't bother working on it because it doesn't actually matter

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because you can't go anywhere.

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So happiness is not a glue.

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Happiness is a perk where when the ability to leave a relationship becomes now an option or an easier option and there's less legal complications, there's less stigma, all of the things that go with it.

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Now happiness becomes glue

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not a perk.

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Correct.

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And I can't help but compare that to work as well, where, you know, we could argue, a strong argument could be made in the 1950s, for example, where 60s or even 70s, where people gave their whole lives to one company.

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And there was a, you know, there was a better deal where we looked after each other and the company would never think of laying you off.

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And that's all true.

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But the concept of like,

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happy at work.

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I mean, you worked for the company, the company worked for you.

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And it just sort of, I wouldn't call it stuck.

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I would call it stasis.

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But now you get to a modern day.

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And even when I compared the young generation to my generation, where I would never dream when I was starting my career, we would never dream of quitting a job within less than a year because it would destroy your resume.

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Where now young people are very comfortable quitting at any time.

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They're also very comfortable quitting without another job lined up, which for somebody like me is like mind blowing.

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Right.

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And, and I think now, right.

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if the ease of getting out of it has lost the social stigma, it's not going to destroy your resume, et cetera, et cetera, go down the list.

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Now, where happiness was a perk at work, happiness is now a glue at work.

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And the question I'm asking is, are leaders focusing on keeping their people happy?

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And I don't mean giving them free lunch and putting ping pong tables.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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When I say happiness, I don't mean smiles.

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I mean fulfillment.

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I mean calm.

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I mean inspiration.

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And now these things are no longer a nice to have, which I think a lot of older executives actually still believe.

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Yep.

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It's a glue, not a perk.

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So I think that as a whole, if you really even step back a second, there's two ideas that accompany your question that for me give it really a context.

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First of all, for most of history, happiness belonged to the afterlife.

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You know, it was in heaven.

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You suffered well on earth.

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And if you did a good job, you could be rewarded later.

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Right?

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Then it comes down.

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We bring happiness from the heavens to the earth.

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It becomes an option.

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And now it becomes a mandate.

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I deserve to be happy.

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I'm entitled, you know, and in that, in the name of that, a number of major changes occur.

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And I think one of the most important shift that takes place in relationships and that connects with your executive relationship,

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is that, again, for most of history, and still in most parts of the world today, relationships are organized around duty, obligation, loyalty, structure.

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You know that you're happy when you're able to fulfill your duties, when you've been able to fulfill the roles that's expected of you as a father, as a son, as a boss, you know.

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And that is what produces the happiness is the ability to fulfill those tasks.

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And you have a lot of clarity.

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You have very little freedom, if any, and very little personal expression.

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Who cares?

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We switch that to a model where relationships become organized around choice and option.

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And you have more freedom than you've ever had.

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And you are more alone and more confused than you've ever been.

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Because all these decisions now rest on you rather than being passed on through the structures of culture and religion and community.

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And.

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And that is underneath the sentences that the executives will say today about the younger generations, about, you know, people talk about wanting...

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belonging, purpose, meaning, community.

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But, you know, your example of the person who moves every year, how can you have belonging on a rotation of one year or even two?

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How can you have belonging when the notion is that if you leave, you really are a winner?

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Right.

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Because you actually have ambitions, you know, that the people who stay, you know, are the people who don't have enough oomph.

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Do you see that in relationships as well?

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Do you see relationships becoming more disposable amongst younger generations where I'm going to keep moving relationships like I keep moving jobs to find the thing that's better and better and will finally make me happy?

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But to your point, it's a fool's errand.

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I think I see different things.

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I see this, people who, I mean, this is a question people are asking me all the time.

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Do we throw, you know, do we abandon the project too soon?

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Yeah.

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I don't know that I can answer it because I also think that so many people have had to tolerate circumstances of life that really, you know, I would put it that sometimes the people who need to leave stay too long and the people who stay too long shouldn't.

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She needs to leave.

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It's not a flat statement.

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It's that there are people who probably would do better by being a little bit more patient and enduring.

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And there are people who would do better by being a little bit more self-serving.

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That's probably a more nuanced answer to your question.

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But what I do see is a proliferation of creations of new types of bonding.

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Yeah.

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new definitions of what is a circle of care, new micro-communities, new families of choice, new multiple co-parenting arrangements.

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And that I find is very creative, whereas for a long time, the family system was actually not one that received much innovation.

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You know, it kind of followed a certain track all along.

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And now there is really a zeal of creativity around what are other ways to make family, to make couple of them, to make intimacy.

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And in that sense, there are people who then may say, I need to move on.

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So we live what Zygmunt Barman used to call liquid life.

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We went from relationships that were tight knots from which you couldn't extricate yourself to relationships that are loose threads where you can go in and out very fluidly.

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And as a result, you can feel very free and also very disposable and very invisible and very easily ghosted.

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So, yeah.

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Does that make sense?

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It does make sense.

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And again, my understanding from what I've read, I'd love for you to confirm this or not, which is younger people are dating less, they're having sex later.

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Scott Galloway talks about this, there's a lot less experience.

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And even the relationships they're having they're not necessarily engaging in long-term relationships as quickly.

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A, is that true?

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And B, why?

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I think that wherever we go, having just spent quite a few weeks working abroad, we're hearing the same litany, even from Brazil.

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Yeah.

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All the way, I went from country to country hearing the same conversation.

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I think that, and the conversation is about an increasing social atrophy, right?

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That's how I call it.

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It involves the loneliness, but it's more than that.

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It's also self-imposed isolation, as some people talk about.

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It's also a kind of a contactless living.

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I don't need to leave my house, neither to work, neither to exercise, neither to shop for food.

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I mean, I can just stay home.

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In every country, I ask this question that has become really quite significant to me.

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Actually, I asked two.

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One relates to what you said before.

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How many of you have grandparents who lived and worked in the same place their whole life?

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The majority.

217
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Right.

218
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How many of you have parents?

219
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They already moved.

220
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How many of you have changed jobs more than once in the last five years?

221
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Yeah.

222
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And then you begin to see this notion of fluidity.

223
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But the other question I ask is, how many of you grew up playing freely on the street?

224
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And the vast majority of an audience of thousands raised their hands.

225
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They grew up playing freely on the street.

226
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And how many of you know children or have children that are playing freely on the street today?

227
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And you get a sprinkle.

228
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And I find that such an amazing, I see it visually.

229
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It's like, you know, when you draw a chart, this is a human chart in front of you.

230
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The loss of the primary ground.

231
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of social negotiation that we used to grow up with, where you met all kinds of kids, where you negotiate, where you make war, where you make peace, where you create alliances, where you have repair.

232
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All of this specific place where you hone your chops of sociability.

233
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gone.

234
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And I think that that has a major effect.

235
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You know, as you were saying this, my mind immediately went to a nature documentary where you watch lion cubs and they fight with each other.

236
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And the mom lets them fight with each other and slap each other around.

237
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And what they're doing is they're learning to hunt.

238
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They're learning to hunt as cubs fighting.

239
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And the question, you know, and it raises the question, we're mammals.

240
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We're supposed to learn all the things that we need to survive as a species when we're younger.

241
00:19:53.993 --> 00:19:54.614
Yep.

242
00:19:54.874 --> 00:20:02.156
And to your point, on the playground, we had war, we had peace, we had fights, we had negotiations, we had heartbreak, we had anger, we had success.

243
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And it was all a safe microcosm of life.

244
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By the way, and this is the mammal stories that we all learn this stuff through play.

245
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We all learn this stuff through play.

246
00:20:13.313 --> 00:20:19.518
And when we're taking the play away, and when you and I are talking about play, we mean very specifically interpersonal play.

247
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Yes.

248
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When we take the interpersonal play away, it raises the question, where are we as homo sapiens, where are we as human beings going to learn these essential life skills?

249
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And the essential life skills we're talking about are not how to code, how to prompt.

250
00:20:35.251 --> 00:20:38.934
We're talking about essential life skills, like how to make a friend, how to ask for help,

251
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how to say I'm struggling, how to fight, how to make peace, all of these things that are essential.

252
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And now we're just looking to the machine, to AI, to fill those gaps.

253
00:20:51.126 --> 00:20:55.310
But the gaps they're filling should never need to be filled in the first place.

254
00:20:55.390 --> 00:20:59.654
Or they should be small gaps filled rather than huge, big chasms.

255
00:21:01.551 --> 00:21:02.411
I totally agree.

256
00:21:02.451 --> 00:21:04.232
I mean, you were asking about the workplace.

257
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I people sometimes ask me, how did you get to be involved in the workplace?

258
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You're this couples therapist, you're this family.

259
00:21:10.695 --> 00:21:12.195
And I'm like, I didn't change.

260
00:21:12.435 --> 00:21:18.478
I mean, but work understood that relationships are no longer just soft skills.

261
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Yeah.

262
00:21:19.478 --> 00:21:23.760
You know, and forever soft skills meant that they're not part of the promotion.

263
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They're not part of the evaluation.

264
00:21:25.361 --> 00:21:31.023
You don't get anything for being a good mediator, a good negotiator, a good peacemaker on your team.

265
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None.

266
00:21:31.844 --> 00:21:34.605
This is not what are considered useful skills.

267
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It's, you know, relational skills used to be feminine skills.

268
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Yes.

269
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Nice.

270
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Nice to have idealized in principle and disregarded in reality.

271
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This is like now

272
00:21:46.730 --> 00:21:50.698
I think that the workplace actually, interestingly, because of AI,

273
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is understand and because of tech in general, you know, that this is actually the cutting edge.

274
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This is the competitive edge.

275
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This is the stuff that people need a tremendous amount of help with.

276
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My hope is that people not only go to AI to ask how to write an apology letter, because you can get a very nice apology letter these days and have no idea if the person experienced an ounce of remorse to begin with.

277
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Yeah, yeah.

278
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It's not the letter, it's the accountability.

279
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Of course.

280
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And this is where I think most people don't realize that since you and I met, one of the reasons we get along so well is you and I are not talking about romantic relationships and you and I are not talking about work.

281
00:22:39.730 --> 00:22:41.972
You and I are talking about human beings in every-

282
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You know that you helped me actually formulate what became the primary credo of my entire body of work.

283
00:22:53.322 --> 00:22:58.446
I remember this when we very early on you did with me a what, you know, what's what?

284
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A Y Discovery?

285
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A Y Discovery?

286
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Yes.

287
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And we were in the basement.

288
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I mean, Jack just reminded me this.

289
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And you said, what is it you are doing?

290
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Like, what is behind?

291
00:23:11.593 --> 00:23:12.533
Why are you doing this?

292
00:23:12.573 --> 00:23:13.254
Why are you doing this?

293
00:23:13.714 --> 00:23:19.277
And I blurted out because it is the quality of our relationships that determines the quality of our lives.

294
00:23:19.377 --> 00:23:19.757
Amen.

295
00:23:20.377 --> 00:23:25.263
And you looked at me and I thought, I finally said it in one sentence.

296
00:23:25.283 --> 00:23:25.623
That's it.

297
00:23:25.663 --> 00:23:29.107
And this was with you, but I forgot who it was with today.

298
00:23:29.147 --> 00:23:30.308
Well, I'll take all the credit.

299
00:23:30.348 --> 00:23:31.069
Thank you very much.

300
00:23:31.089 --> 00:23:31.890
I did.

301
00:23:32.030 --> 00:23:32.991
I think that's fun.

302
00:23:33.071 --> 00:23:36.956
And this is why you and I, like you happen to come up through, um, uh,

303
00:23:38.177 --> 00:23:40.159
psychology and couples counseling.

304
00:23:40.179 --> 00:23:41.620
And I happen to come through the corporate world.

305
00:23:41.660 --> 00:23:48.927
But fundamentally, you and I meet in the middle where we both believe that the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives.

306
00:23:49.347 --> 00:23:50.489
I'll tell you a quick funny story.

307
00:23:50.949 --> 00:23:51.810
So I did a...

308
00:23:53.311 --> 00:24:01.098
something called a glycan age recently, where they basically take blood and they, I can't remember exactly what they do, but they look at, they look at inflammation in the body.

309
00:24:01.138 --> 00:24:04.682
They're looking at the cell coding and they can tell the inflammation.

310
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And, you know, inflammation is this insidious thing inside us that if you have it, it is a precursor to all kinds of health problems later in life.

311
00:24:13.869 --> 00:24:20.073
And so if you have less inflammation, what they call a glycan age, you're younger than your chronological age.

312
00:24:20.473 --> 00:24:28.098
And what they're telling me is that if you're eight years younger, if your glycan age is eight years younger than your chronological age, they consider that very healthy.

313
00:24:28.679 --> 00:24:32.701
I found out that I'm 22 years younger than my chronological age.

314
00:24:33.041 --> 00:24:34.582
And they go through my lifestyle and everything.

315
00:24:34.602 --> 00:24:36.664
Now, I exercise, not obsessively.

316
00:24:36.944 --> 00:24:39.065
Sometimes I don't exercise at all for quite a while.

317
00:24:39.445 --> 00:24:42.748
You know, I eat well mostly, but, you know,

318
00:24:43.528 --> 00:24:44.069
Not great.

319
00:24:44.849 --> 00:24:47.332
I talk to one of the counselors and they go through all of the markers with me.

320
00:24:47.672 --> 00:24:51.636
But fundamentally, I want to be happy and I want to spend time with my friends.

321
00:24:52.570 --> 00:24:59.633
And those things that I do things for the, I wanna have fun when I do things and I wanna spend a lot of time with my friends, it reduces stress.

322
00:25:00.233 --> 00:25:10.698
And you look at the health obsessed people, like the longevity obsessed people, they're putting themselves through such extreme stress by freaking out about the metrics every day.

323
00:25:10.718 --> 00:25:18.661
And they're doing cold plunges and a hard workout and intermittent fasting, which all of those things are healthy by themselves.

324
00:25:18.681 --> 00:25:20.362
But when you start stacking the stress,

325
00:25:21.202 --> 00:25:26.184
it actually makes, it actually creates inflammation and actually reduces lifespan.

326
00:25:26.444 --> 00:25:29.365
I learned that elite athletes actually don't live long.

327
00:25:31.045 --> 00:25:45.730
And so basically when we say, when you say, the quality of your relationships determines the quality of your life, that is biologically true more than just what you eat, how much exercise you do, and whether you do intermittent fasting or not.

328
00:25:46.830 --> 00:25:49.591
I mean, you know, first you're describing

329
00:25:51.550 --> 00:26:05.024
what the Harvard longitudinal study on men, by the way, that has been going on for decades, it's absolutely clear that relationships and meaningful relationships is the number one bar none for happiness.

330
00:26:05.064 --> 00:26:08.847
That doesn't necessarily mean that you live longer, but you live better.

331
00:26:09.308 --> 00:26:11.991
I wanna live a long, happy life, not just a long life.

332
00:26:12.311 --> 00:26:12.972
What we know,

333
00:26:14.242 --> 00:26:22.764
is that all people who arrive at a certain age, as one of the great physicians said to me, I have yet to meet a man in his nineties who is alive alone.

334
00:26:24.865 --> 00:26:26.165
Oh, so good.

335
00:26:26.505 --> 00:26:31.746
Everybody who is there a long time is there because they have somebody right next to them.

336
00:26:31.766 --> 00:26:37.307
Doesn't have to be a spouse, but there are people right next to them that say, oh, it looks like you're limping a bit.

337
00:26:37.768 --> 00:26:39.908
Oh, you don't seem to be hearing me as well.

338
00:26:40.328 --> 00:26:43.209
Oh, have you considered getting eye surgery?

339
00:26:44.109 --> 00:26:49.395
Whatever, people look at you and are saying, I see you, how are you doing?

340
00:26:50.195 --> 00:27:07.033
They know, for example, a propos relationships and health, that the growth of the lats, the living apart together, the fastest growing configuration of couples in America today is actually correlated with the decline in health.

341
00:27:07.975 --> 00:27:11.658
especially in men who often don't pay attention to this.

342
00:27:11.998 --> 00:27:19.584
And so who they, male partners or female partners, but it means in partnership, somebody says, should go see a doctor.

343
00:27:19.724 --> 00:27:24.208
Even Dan Buettner's work, you know, the Blue Zones, which is wonderful work and he's fantastic.

344
00:27:24.668 --> 00:27:41.682
And he does talk about it, but a lot of the people, what they take from his work is walk every day, drink olive oil, eat vegetables, and they completely ignore the fact that these blue zones, that they live in commune, they live together, they eat together, they work together, they do things together, they walk together.

345
00:27:42.222 --> 00:27:44.044
And to your point, they're like, you're limping.

346
00:27:44.484 --> 00:27:45.485
You're not listening to me.

347
00:27:46.446 --> 00:27:47.206
And they...

348
00:27:48.467 --> 00:27:50.928
They know how to have effective confrontation.

349
00:27:50.948 --> 00:27:52.428
They know how to resolve.

350
00:27:52.508 --> 00:27:58.070
All those human skills that we talk about that should be learned in the playground, they learn them and they're using them into their old age.

351
00:27:58.751 --> 00:28:09.654
You're 100%- Isn't it amazing that we need to be reminded of this, that we are social beings, that we are mammals, that we survive by the connection we have to others, that we are born to connect with people.

352
00:28:10.214 --> 00:28:11.895
I'll give you a little anecdote.

353
00:28:11.955 --> 00:28:17.397
I don't think anecdotes describe the full reality, but it was a moment for me that was very interesting.

354
00:28:19.437 --> 00:28:21.078
My younger son was in kindergarten.

355
00:28:21.098 --> 00:28:22.580
He had a very best friend.

356
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:26.164
I was convinced he would go into first grade with that same friend.

357
00:28:27.324 --> 00:28:29.245
No, I went to the principal.

358
00:28:29.285 --> 00:28:30.826
I said, why did you separate them?

359
00:28:31.206 --> 00:28:32.287
They were getting so long.

360
00:28:32.307 --> 00:28:37.610
That was such a beautiful friendship that could become, you know, my childhood friend like I have from age six.

361
00:28:37.870 --> 00:28:40.912
She said, they need to learn to make new friends each time.

362
00:28:41.232 --> 00:28:43.353
I said, he's not being trained for mobility.

363
00:28:43.614 --> 00:28:47.736
He's a five-year-old who is being trained for long-term relationships.

364
00:28:48.016 --> 00:28:48.817
It's not the same.

365
00:28:49.877 --> 00:28:50.938
And it was really clear.

366
00:28:50.958 --> 00:28:51.779
That was the idea.

367
00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:55.202
The idea is not how do you continue a longstanding friendship?

368
00:28:55.383 --> 00:28:57.665
It's how do you make new friends all the time?

369
00:28:58.546 --> 00:29:02.009
I thought that was just an amazing cultural encounter.

370
00:29:02.289 --> 00:29:02.890
Wow.

371
00:29:03.190 --> 00:29:04.512
So, wow.

372
00:29:04.892 --> 00:29:08.656
We're actually training our young to suck it up and get over it and move on.

373
00:29:08.676 --> 00:29:08.776
Yeah.

374
00:29:09.212 --> 00:29:11.133
Yeah, I mean, it's not seen this way.

375
00:29:11.153 --> 00:29:16.136
It's seen as having the competence, the quality of being able to make new friends wherever you go.

376
00:29:16.156 --> 00:29:19.618
And there is value to that too.

377
00:29:19.638 --> 00:29:32.425
But at five, I'm thinking, you can see a value system that occurs two decades later and how it seeps into the mentality of early childhood, basically.

378
00:29:32.845 --> 00:29:41.074
One of the things we don't think about until, you know, we're looking in the rearview mirror is what are the experiences we have when we're children that mold us into the adults that we become?

379
00:29:41.435 --> 00:29:44.358
And like we know the generation that grew up during lockdown.

380
00:29:45.019 --> 00:29:50.785
We're not sure what the impact is yet, but like like our grandparents who grew up during the war.

381
00:29:51.406 --> 00:30:02.569
you know, and during rations, you know, for the rest of their lives, they saved every little piece of tin foil and reused every jam jar, you know, and they would never, they would, they hated waste.

382
00:30:02.949 --> 00:30:04.890
And the reason is it's not, there's nothing mentally wrong with them.

383
00:30:04.910 --> 00:30:09.351
It's because they grew up during a time of depression and war, you know?

384
00:30:09.491 --> 00:30:12.832
And so it marks them for the rest of their lives as an entire generation.

385
00:30:13.132 --> 00:30:15.553
I think that you have two things happening right now.

386
00:30:16.233 --> 00:30:16.333
One,

387
00:30:17.273 --> 00:30:21.315
is that we all understand that people come to work with two CVs.

388
00:30:22.115 --> 00:30:23.135
They have two resumes.

389
00:30:23.515 --> 00:30:26.797
They have their work resume and they have their relationship history.

390
00:30:27.717 --> 00:30:43.023
Everybody comes to work with a relationship CV in which that determines your relationship to authority, to power, to powerlessness, to boundaries, to boundaryless, to communication, to conflict, to...

391
00:30:43.964 --> 00:30:45.666
to implosion, to explosion.

392
00:30:45.846 --> 00:30:54.137
Every aspect of relationship takes place in the workplace and it has a resonance to the early relationships where we learn things.

393
00:30:54.517 --> 00:30:56.400
Family, community, cultural.

394
00:30:57.573 --> 00:31:04.415
In addition to that, you have now a whole generation that is basically learning to live with predictive technologies.

395
00:31:04.815 --> 00:31:25.179
And these predictive technologies will tell you where to go, what to eat, what to watch, you know, are giving you specific answers to every question that you have, erasing all complexity, erasing nuance, erasing the idea that in the realm of life, many problems are not problems that you solve, but paradoxes that you learn to manage.

396
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:36.024
have learned, have transposed their expectations of how the apps respond to them to how people should respond to them.

397
00:31:36.384 --> 00:31:41.027
They want the same kind of smooth, frictionless, polished perfection.

398
00:31:41.407 --> 00:31:47.970
And when there is an obstacle or a frustration or a conflict, they are often stumped and they don't know what to do.

399
00:31:48.330 --> 00:31:51.532
And that entire thing is now entering the workplace.

400
00:31:51.812 --> 00:32:00.335
especially places that are tech oriented, where this is constantly on a reinforcement on a daily, with a daily doses.

401
00:32:02.116 --> 00:32:20.823
This is what most people, I mean, I think they've appreciate now in this conversation, which is you and I both have our own brand of Trojan horse, which is you fundamentally believe that if you can teach people to resolve conflict and learn these human skills in their relationships, it'll fundamentally benefit everything that happens at work and all the relationships at work.

402
00:32:21.283 --> 00:32:28.945
And my Trojan horse is if I can teach people the human skills of conflict resolution and asking for help at work, it'll fundamentally improve their relationships and friendships outside of work.

403
00:32:29.245 --> 00:32:33.706
Because at the end of the day, what you and I peddle in is human relationships.

404
00:32:33.986 --> 00:32:39.087
It actually is irrelevant, whether they're personal relationships or work relationships, they're relationships.

405
00:32:39.748 --> 00:32:43.849
And the reason your friends love you is the same reason your clients and colleagues love you.

406
00:32:44.049 --> 00:32:44.869
It's because it's you.

407
00:32:45.289 --> 00:32:49.450
And if one of those places you act differently than in one of those places, you're lying.

408
00:32:50.847 --> 00:32:56.153
And the goal is to, and again, I'm agnostic as to where somebody learns the skills.

409
00:32:56.634 --> 00:33:03.461
I don't care if they learn them in couples therapy, and I don't care if they learn them in a listening class that their office gives them.

410
00:33:03.622 --> 00:33:04.282
I don't care.

411
00:33:04.482 --> 00:33:06.505
Just learn the damn skills somewhere, please.

412
00:33:08.652 --> 00:33:10.713
For the benefit of all your human relationships.

413
00:33:10.733 --> 00:33:15.557
And as we're learning, it's the quality of our relationships that determines the quality of our lives.

414
00:33:16.137 --> 00:33:19.159
And, you know, our work lives.

415
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.561
These are all modern constructions that we're talking about.

416
00:33:21.841 --> 00:33:24.543
The way that the relationship exists, the way that the work life exists.

417
00:33:24.863 --> 00:33:32.208
But fundamentally, since the dawn of humankind, it's human beings who have to cooperate with other human beings in order to survive and thrive as a species.

418
00:33:32.508 --> 00:33:32.808
Correct.

419
00:33:32.868 --> 00:33:36.450
The rest of the stuff is just is just is just is the context.

420
00:33:36.830 --> 00:33:40.091
It's the specific context and that matters and it shapes things.

421
00:33:40.151 --> 00:33:42.872
But the fundamental dimension is universal.

422
00:33:43.572 --> 00:33:55.497
So, you know, we haven't talked in a while and you and I, because we're friends, we've both cheated in our lives, meaning I should probably elaborate.

423
00:33:57.078 --> 00:34:00.304
I'm like, where is he going?

424
00:34:00.464 --> 00:34:01.446
Where is he going with this?

425
00:34:01.506 --> 00:34:01.967
Exactly.

426
00:34:02.027 --> 00:34:02.728
Nobody knows.

427
00:34:04.611 --> 00:34:09.961
What I mean is, just as you said that I helped you with articulate the meaning of your work.

428
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:21.649
So too, when you and I would go out for dinner, you know, I'd get free relationship counseling, you know, and, and you and I would, because you and I are genuinely interested in each other's work and in our own work.

429
00:34:21.689 --> 00:34:24.532
And so, you know, we, we, we open up to each other.

430
00:34:24.552 --> 00:34:27.434
It gets our relationship, our conversations be quite personal.

431
00:34:27.915 --> 00:34:29.096
And so I haven't talked to you in a while.

432
00:34:29.116 --> 00:34:30.137
So I need to give you an update.

433
00:34:30.157 --> 00:34:30.277
Yeah.

434
00:34:31.767 --> 00:34:35.169
So what better place to give you an update than on a public broadcast?

435
00:34:35.749 --> 00:34:42.892
I had a huge profound shift in my thinking about my own relationships that I hope I think will make you proud.

436
00:34:44.353 --> 00:34:51.375
which is I haven't had many long-term relationships in my life and I've never been married.

437
00:34:51.915 --> 00:34:58.817
And in my dating life, very often, especially on a first date, a woman will say to me, what's wrong with you?

438
00:34:58.857 --> 00:34:59.898
Because they'll start quizzing me.

439
00:35:00.278 --> 00:35:01.498
What's your longest relationship?

440
00:35:01.538 --> 00:35:02.358
You know, they're quizzing me.

441
00:35:02.378 --> 00:35:04.419
They're going through whether I'm capable.

442
00:35:05.683 --> 00:35:07.863
You know, and I'm honest.

443
00:35:08.523 --> 00:35:12.044
And then they literally, they say, well, how come you haven't been married?

444
00:35:12.204 --> 00:35:13.444
Or what's wrong with you?

445
00:35:13.584 --> 00:35:15.105
Are you relationship phobic?

446
00:35:15.165 --> 00:35:16.165
Or are you commitment phobic?

447
00:35:16.805 --> 00:35:18.865
And, you know, it didn't sound right.

448
00:35:19.765 --> 00:35:22.746
But the empirical evidence would demonstrate that maybe I am.

449
00:35:22.786 --> 00:35:26.227
And I started to believe the evidence, even though it didn't feel right to me.

450
00:35:26.607 --> 00:35:28.147
And it caused me great insecurity.

451
00:35:28.887 --> 00:35:32.368
And then I started to realize when somebody says, how come you haven't been married yet?

452
00:35:32.388 --> 00:35:33.188
The answer was obvious.

453
00:35:33.248 --> 00:35:34.268
I haven't met the right person yet.

454
00:35:35.858 --> 00:35:45.486
But more important than that, more important than that was, is, is that I've recognized that I have focused on friendships, and I have a very fulfilled and happy life.

455
00:35:46.087 --> 00:35:52.733
And I get a lot of what other people get from relationships, I get from very, very deep and meaningful friendships.

456
00:35:53.373 --> 00:35:57.297
And I have a friend, she, she was in a 16 year relationship.

457
00:35:58.528 --> 00:36:02.549
And she will freely admit that she should have been in that relationship for one year.

458
00:36:02.709 --> 00:36:07.711
It was very unhealthy, very toxic, and mostly unhappy.

459
00:36:08.972 --> 00:36:13.913
And she says, I should have been in the relationship for one year, but she stayed in it for 16 years.

460
00:36:14.394 --> 00:36:17.575
And society looks at her and says, she did it right.

461
00:36:18.935 --> 00:36:19.775
That is correct.

462
00:36:20.096 --> 00:36:26.758
And society looks at me, where I didn't have one monogamous relationship, and they say, something's wrong with you.

463
00:36:28.225 --> 00:36:30.727
And I've exercised those demons.

464
00:36:31.067 --> 00:36:43.816
And I've recognized that so long as I am in happy, healthy, fulfilling relationships, the exact dynamics, whether it fits society's definition of what I should or shouldn't be doing, is irrelevant.

465
00:36:44.037 --> 00:36:44.677
Am I happy?

466
00:36:45.518 --> 00:36:46.458
Do people love me?

467
00:36:46.558 --> 00:36:47.499
Do I love people?

468
00:36:47.799 --> 00:36:49.781
Do I feel that I can go to someone and say I'm struggling?

469
00:36:49.801 --> 00:36:51.142
Is there someone to say you're limping?

470
00:36:51.182 --> 00:36:51.782
Go to the doctor.

471
00:36:51.802 --> 00:36:52.683
There's something in your teeth.

472
00:36:52.903 --> 00:36:55.425
Do I have those friends that are unafraid?

473
00:36:57.080 --> 00:37:12.106
And I think we, especially in this modern context, where the definition of relationships have changed so much, to your point, which is whether we're in these long-term healthy monogamous relationships has become yet another stressor in our lives.

474
00:37:12.767 --> 00:37:15.368
And the question is, are you in happy relationships

475
00:37:16.528 --> 00:37:27.395
whether they're work relationships or romantic relationships, do you have successful relationships that you know how to manage and they too have the skills of having?

476
00:37:27.715 --> 00:37:35.400
And I've recognized whether it's just me because I'm a weirdo, maybe it's society, but I'm much more at peace with the fact that there's nothing wrong with me.

477
00:37:37.361 --> 00:37:43.665
So I'm gonna, if you allow me, I would, the personal one we'll do at dinner.

478
00:37:44.497 --> 00:38:03.542
But the broader one, I think, is a very relevant question, which is kind of what I was addressing earlier when I said there is a proliferation of new emphasis, new creations of social bonds, new definitions of what is family, what is a family of choice, what is a circle of care.

479
00:38:04.182 --> 00:38:07.603
And I think that what you're describing among your friends is that.

480
00:38:08.003 --> 00:38:08.243
Yeah.

481
00:38:08.663 --> 00:38:23.725
What you're saying, if I understand it well, is that we have over-indexed on the romantic partnership as it being the one and only, the be-all, the central one, the one that everybody needs to have one and fulfil,

482
00:38:24.606 --> 00:38:33.952
And it also happens to be a model in which one person has to be able to provide you what an entire village used to provide.

483
00:38:34.652 --> 00:38:52.003
And that means that you have to experience with the same person the sense of belonging, apropos what we described about work, a sense of belonging, of continuity, of safety, of predictability, and also of adventure and of novelty and of playfulness and risk, all of this in one relationship.

484
00:38:52.583 --> 00:38:56.165
I think there are three models, actually, in that sense.

485
00:38:56.185 --> 00:39:06.270
There is a relationship model that is romantic and intimate in which people do experience the joy from the relationship itself.

486
00:39:06.930 --> 00:39:16.655
Then there are people, maybe this woman that you described, for whom marriage or committed intimate relationships or relationships are scaffolding.

487
00:39:17.255 --> 00:39:21.698
They basically provide a structure that enables you to go elsewhere

488
00:39:22.948 --> 00:39:28.942
and find different sources of meaning, activities, shared interests, purpose, you name it.

489
00:39:30.033 --> 00:39:44.886
desire, you know, but basically friends, because people find that if they are in the structure of a couple, they have fulfilled the norm and it enables them to go and make friendship and things like that outside.

490
00:39:44.966 --> 00:39:55.195
And then there are people who basically are blessed with multiple friendships and multiple binds and bonds and connections, and they don't necessarily...

491
00:39:56.156 --> 00:40:00.321
see the intimate relationship as the primary relationship to be in.

492
00:40:01.142 --> 00:40:01.942
And you are right.

493
00:40:02.143 --> 00:40:10.532
They are often seen from a normative point of view as the ones who didn't fulfill, you know, what's expected, the code of conduct.

494
00:40:11.653 --> 00:40:12.434
When in fact,

495
00:40:13.796 --> 00:40:19.580
Not everybody finds the best of themselves in an intimate romantic relationship.

496
00:40:19.700 --> 00:40:27.545
Some people are way better as managers, as mentors, as friends, as teachers than they are as life partners.

497
00:40:27.885 --> 00:40:31.247
It's really for me about stress, which is I love being in a relationship.

498
00:40:31.527 --> 00:40:35.030
I love having a romantic partner and a life partner.

499
00:40:35.110 --> 00:40:36.751
I really love being in a relationship.

500
00:40:37.291 --> 00:40:41.894
And in my last relationship... That's why I answered it less personal.

501
00:40:41.994 --> 00:40:43.075
And I want another one.

502
00:40:43.716 --> 00:40:52.165
But you don't want to be made to feel like there's something wrong with me because I'm not in one or because I don't have a history of a marriage.

503
00:40:52.645 --> 00:40:55.007
And that's the those are the demons that I've exercised.

504
00:40:55.027 --> 00:41:00.533
Yes, that is the measurement stick that is used across the globe.

505
00:41:00.553 --> 00:41:04.056
It goes right back to the beginning of this conversation, which is the norm.

506
00:41:04.537 --> 00:41:05.137
The norm.

507
00:41:05.898 --> 00:41:10.742
may have been developed not because it was out of desire, but because people were stuck.

508
00:41:11.503 --> 00:41:15.406
And as you said, happiness was a... We discussed happiness was a perk, not a glue.

509
00:41:16.227 --> 00:41:29.518
And it was the being stuck in something that defined the rules and roles and responsibilities of that relationship, that when the flexibility to be unstuck changes the rules, roles, and responsibility in the relationship.

510
00:41:29.538 --> 00:41:29.978
Correct.

511
00:41:30.379 --> 00:41:32.941
And so I think...

512
00:41:34.562 --> 00:41:37.543
As I said, for me, it's not a question that I want to...

513
00:41:37.863 --> 00:41:43.024
I absolutely want a relationship, but I don't feel there's anything wrong with me anymore.

514
00:41:43.044 --> 00:41:52.266
I believed the very sort of judgy questions that were asked to me over dinner, and I now can smile and say, it's obvious why I haven't been married.

515
00:41:52.286 --> 00:41:53.246
I haven't met the right person yet.

516
00:41:53.346 --> 00:41:54.466
It's such a stupid question.

517
00:41:54.526 --> 00:41:55.126
Isn't that obvious?

518
00:41:55.646 --> 00:42:03.308
I think what you're highlighting, because that's the lesson for many people,

519
00:42:05.750 --> 00:42:06.751
we need connection.

520
00:42:07.192 --> 00:42:07.953
We need connection.

521
00:42:08.193 --> 00:42:11.918
And my friendships leave me not lonely.

522
00:42:12.318 --> 00:42:13.560
Yes, yes, yes, exactly.

523
00:42:13.580 --> 00:42:22.211
And very fulfilled while at the same time, of course I'm meeting people and would like what, and the other thing that's changed is I would meet people and be like, try and make this person my girlfriend.

524
00:42:22.471 --> 00:42:23.072
Okay, it didn't work.

525
00:42:23.292 --> 00:42:24.932
Try and make this person my girlfriend.

526
00:42:25.373 --> 00:42:29.434
And of course I'm putting pressure on myself and the poor other person.

527
00:42:29.754 --> 00:42:33.375
It's destined for failure because of this construction that I'm trying to force.

528
00:42:33.735 --> 00:42:38.576
Now, everyone I meet, my only goal is see if there's a friendship here.

529
00:42:39.056 --> 00:42:40.837
See if there's a friendship here, foster friendship.

530
00:42:41.057 --> 00:42:45.498
And if one of those friendships blossoms into something more, then I'm open-minded to that.

531
00:42:45.758 --> 00:42:47.118
But build friendship first.

532
00:42:47.138 --> 00:42:48.479
But you know what you're highlighting.

533
00:42:48.499 --> 00:42:49.539
Force it into a relationship.

534
00:42:49.879 --> 00:42:54.324
What you're highlighting, which is very interesting, is the difference between belonging and fitting in.

535
00:42:55.304 --> 00:42:55.705
Say more.

536
00:42:56.165 --> 00:42:58.187
I mean, you wanted to try to fit in.

537
00:42:58.568 --> 00:43:01.190
You want to try to fit the person into the mold.

538
00:43:01.430 --> 00:43:04.413
You know, romantic love is fantastic.

539
00:43:04.493 --> 00:43:06.576
It's one of the greatest inventions we have.

540
00:43:06.996 --> 00:43:11.941
But it doesn't come at the expense of every other type of bonding and relationship.

541
00:43:12.461 --> 00:43:12.601
Right.

542
00:43:13.222 --> 00:43:18.227
I mean, what I have been saying for quite a while now is we need the spread of it.

543
00:43:18.727 --> 00:43:19.948
We need the mentorship.

544
00:43:20.388 --> 00:43:21.309
We need the teacher.

545
00:43:21.349 --> 00:43:23.311
We need the creative pair.

546
00:43:23.691 --> 00:43:25.093
We need the deep friendships.

547
00:43:25.153 --> 00:43:27.214
We need the peripheral friendships.

548
00:43:27.555 --> 00:43:28.756
We need the work friends.

549
00:43:29.096 --> 00:43:29.637
We need...

550
00:43:30.761 --> 00:43:44.037
Because we don't have these ready-made, all-encompassing communities that we used to be part of, in which one community determined every aspect of our lives, as it is still in many other parts of the world, but not here.

551
00:43:44.557 --> 00:43:46.099
We need to create this.

552
00:43:46.540 --> 00:43:47.921
And this is a real...

553
00:43:48.702 --> 00:43:59.189
creative endeavor actually, but it demands practice, it demands routines, it demands rituals, it demands continuity on a daily basis.

554
00:43:59.770 --> 00:44:03.172
You're right that your friends make you not lonely, hopefully.

555
00:44:03.492 --> 00:44:14.800
And you're right that many people who are in committed marriages or romantic relationships may often really experience a lack of friends and a deep loneliness while there's somebody living right next to them.

556
00:44:15.100 --> 00:44:15.260
Yep.

557
00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:22.831
It's not the numbers and the constellation that guarantees the quality of your connection and the internal feeling.

558
00:44:23.834 --> 00:44:41.738
You know, I got interested, you know, I mean, I've written and spoken about this for decades on the personal front, but I got very interested in it, in the workspace, because when we began, I said there is a kind of a dual revolution happening at once.

559
00:44:42.118 --> 00:44:52.561
The business terms have entered the romantic and the intimate relationships, but the psychology and the language of intimate relationships has entered the business world.

560
00:44:53.041 --> 00:44:55.385
authenticity, vulnerability,

561
00:44:57.540 --> 00:44:59.241
Trust, psychological safety.

562
00:44:59.261 --> 00:45:10.864
I mean, an entire vocabulary has entered the workplace and especially the business world that, you know, in the same breath, we talk about psychological safety as we talk about performance indicators.

563
00:45:10.924 --> 00:45:14.785
And we totally see the syncretism as normal.

564
00:45:14.845 --> 00:45:25.889
And so from that place, I thought, oh, maybe I can also, within the workplace, address not just our relationship to work, but our relationships at work.

565
00:45:26.149 --> 00:45:26.409
Yeah.

566
00:45:26.729 --> 00:45:37.336
And I started to create the card games and I started to create experiences of interaction when people know that storytelling is the bridge for connection.

567
00:45:37.596 --> 00:45:42.139
How do I make people share of themselves in that context?

568
00:45:42.820 --> 00:45:45.402
Because now we need as many contexts as we can.

569
00:45:46.250 --> 00:45:55.737
I wonder if the group that's at highest risk is the young people, but but not kids in school, because kids, you know, the question is, do they play in the street?

570
00:45:55.838 --> 00:45:57.759
Maybe not, but they still play in the playground.

571
00:45:57.779 --> 00:46:04.044
They still go to school and more and more schools are taking the phones away or at least restricting their use.

572
00:46:04.064 --> 00:46:07.967
So there's still common experience at school and they still have fights on the playground.

573
00:46:08.507 --> 00:46:10.848
The post high school or the post college?

574
00:46:11.368 --> 00:46:20.532
I think the highest risk is college and post college, where they start to have some independence and especially post, you know, when they enter the entry level workforce.

575
00:46:20.952 --> 00:46:22.153
Entry level workforce is...

576
00:46:22.193 --> 00:46:28.475
I think entry level workforce, that population is the most at risk, especially with the concept of remote work.

577
00:46:29.036 --> 00:46:29.396
Because...

578
00:46:30.368 --> 00:46:32.529
If they don't have to come to work, they don't want to come to work.

579
00:46:33.149 --> 00:46:34.689
If there will be work for them.

580
00:46:34.789 --> 00:46:35.830
It's a job bloodbath.

581
00:46:35.950 --> 00:46:37.050
If there will be work for them.

582
00:46:37.130 --> 00:46:50.754
And the idea of the lion cubs learning the skills they need for adulthood, I would argue that first level workforce, that entry level workforce, entry level sucks.

583
00:46:51.314 --> 00:46:53.016
You know, you have to be good at everything.

584
00:46:53.797 --> 00:46:54.898
It's not about your unique talent.

585
00:46:54.918 --> 00:46:56.480
You think you have to be good at everything.

586
00:46:56.500 --> 00:46:58.062
You have to think you have to be good at everything.

587
00:46:58.082 --> 00:47:03.888
But, and you have to, and you're asked to do things you, like I, when I was entry level, they wanted me to be very organized.

588
00:47:04.368 --> 00:47:05.530
That's hilarious.

589
00:47:06.191 --> 00:47:07.812
But I had, I had to do it.

590
00:47:08.093 --> 00:47:10.255
And it's the stresses and strains that,

591
00:47:10.355 --> 00:47:16.657
And I had to learn who are my friends and who are my enemies because there were people who stabbed me in the back for their promotion.

592
00:47:17.097 --> 00:47:19.458
And you can't just stab them back.

593
00:47:19.478 --> 00:47:20.838
You have to learn to navigate.

594
00:47:21.339 --> 00:47:25.540
But it happened, the playground, the street was the office.

595
00:47:26.903 --> 00:47:35.871
and the politics and the egos and the insecurities, mine and theirs and the ambitions, and all of this came into the pot that was the office place.

596
00:47:36.332 --> 00:47:47.722
And I fear that because it feels nice not to come to work and it feels nice to have all that freedom, that as you described the liquidity, the liquid work-life balance,

597
00:47:48.583 --> 00:47:55.746
That the rigidity and the structure, even to the point where companies are saying, we'd like you to come back to work, and it's not just for us, it's also for you.

598
00:47:56.107 --> 00:48:04.811
There's such a harsh pushback amongst particularly, I think, younger populations, because it feels nice not to come in.

599
00:48:05.131 --> 00:48:06.391
But the question is, is it good for you?

600
00:48:07.032 --> 00:48:14.035
When I've spoken about this, the comments in the sections are like, you're just saying that because you're an exploitive employer and all of this stuff.

601
00:48:15.055 --> 00:48:17.717
And I really am thinking about those lion cubs.

602
00:48:18.517 --> 00:48:24.421
I'm really thinking about the time, because you can't, when you're senior and you screw something up, it can be really bad.

603
00:48:24.441 --> 00:48:27.263
When you're a junior, you're not going to bring the company down.

604
00:48:27.523 --> 00:48:34.027
I am who I am today, in large part, because I was really lucky to have a really shitty boss when I started my career.

605
00:48:34.167 --> 00:48:41.251
And then I got a really good boss, and I learned how not to do things and how to do things that had significant molding and influence.

606
00:48:41.832 --> 00:48:46.555
One of my favorite cards is actually, I still remember the manager who...

607
00:48:47.538 --> 00:48:58.200
And what you hear is often either the best manager, the one that I adore, that trained me, that believed in me, that I want to emulate.

608
00:48:58.380 --> 00:49:08.802
Either it's the manager, like the boss that you're talking about, the shitty manager who really made me sweat and who I learned from that person what never to do.

609
00:49:09.222 --> 00:49:11.283
It's an amazing revelatory car.

610
00:49:11.343 --> 00:49:11.683
Yeah.

611
00:49:13.003 --> 00:49:17.004
I also like the piece of feedback I wish I had received sooner.

612
00:49:17.184 --> 00:49:23.286
That too, because it goes back to your beginnings and what people did and did not tell you.

613
00:49:23.506 --> 00:49:38.430
I think instead of polarizing between remote work and physically present at work, the question for me at this moment, I don't want to engage with that conversation the way where people can then be invited to

614
00:49:39.636 --> 00:49:44.860
You know, I combine, I do my podcast online.

615
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:48.862
It is a technology where people can listen live to sessions.

616
00:49:49.403 --> 00:49:51.264
I also see patients in person.

617
00:49:51.744 --> 00:49:53.145
I see patients on a walk.

618
00:49:53.706 --> 00:49:55.167
I see patients on a screen.

619
00:49:55.827 --> 00:50:08.076
I try to alternate it and I try to teach my students to not do their entire work on the screen because some of the young therapists have never seen anybody work and have never been seen working.

620
00:50:08.396 --> 00:50:08.616
Yeah.

621
00:50:09.305 --> 00:50:14.611
And that I think is problematic because supervision is the way you learn in my field.

622
00:50:14.631 --> 00:50:18.396
That's your feedback session with the manager is a supervision session.

623
00:50:18.596 --> 00:50:18.957
Yeah.

624
00:50:20.492 --> 00:50:24.777
I would say what is important is how we help people connect.

625
00:50:25.418 --> 00:50:27.681
It's what people used to say, like meet them where they are.

626
00:50:28.261 --> 00:50:29.883
How do you elicit curiosity?

627
00:50:30.284 --> 00:50:35.690
How do you make people appear like they are three-dimensional people behind that screen?

628
00:50:36.251 --> 00:50:37.973
You know, what's going on in their life?

629
00:50:38.774 --> 00:50:39.254
How do you...

630
00:50:40.816 --> 00:50:41.517
Can we?

631
00:50:41.617 --> 00:50:51.745
Because what happens today is you open the screen, even us, we open the screen and we basically started within a minute, you know, because I couldn't say, can I get you a coffee?

632
00:50:52.105 --> 00:51:00.272
Or you say to me, can I get, you know, that whole ritual of welcoming, of entering into each other's spheres of saying, how have you been?

633
00:51:00.292 --> 00:51:02.894
You know, that smile that we were talking about.

634
00:51:03.054 --> 00:51:03.875
It's so exciting.

635
00:51:04.735 --> 00:51:05.476
task oriented.

636
00:51:05.496 --> 00:51:06.417
It's transactional.

637
00:51:06.497 --> 00:51:07.858
It's transactional.

638
00:51:07.918 --> 00:51:12.883
And again, I agree with you, and I'm not making the for or against in-person versus online work either.

639
00:51:12.903 --> 00:51:19.169
I mean, I've had a virtual company before virtual companies were a thing, and I still do.

640
00:51:19.890 --> 00:51:22.672
My team is spread all over the country, if not all over the world.

641
00:51:23.413 --> 00:51:31.921
I'm making the case that it's not one or it's one end that, that I I'm asking employers to be flexible, but I'm asking employees to be flexible too.

642
00:51:32.201 --> 00:51:37.466
That it, that neither side should be saying it's this or that both sides should be saying, we would like it blended.

643
00:51:37.846 --> 00:51:41.149
Even if some of it makes me uncomfortable because I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert, whatever.

644
00:51:41.509 --> 00:51:43.270
Because it's not just about, well, I'm an introvert.

645
00:51:43.290 --> 00:51:43.991
I want to stay at home.

646
00:51:44.431 --> 00:51:45.952
Well, think about your extrovert colleagues.

647
00:51:46.012 --> 00:51:46.753
They want to see you.

648
00:51:46.833 --> 00:51:49.134
So sometimes we have to make a little sacrifice for each other.

649
00:51:49.154 --> 00:51:52.537
This goes back to what it means to be in tribe.

650
00:51:52.557 --> 00:52:00.822
It means to be in relationship, which is we do things for each other so that we can grow, not just that I can be happy, but that we can be happy and we do things for each other.

651
00:52:01.243 --> 00:52:04.425
And so I, like even my virtual company, like I.

652
00:52:04.905 --> 00:52:05.305
Do you meet?

653
00:52:06.885 --> 00:52:08.646
Do you have off-sites?

654
00:52:08.786 --> 00:52:09.066
We do.

655
00:52:09.106 --> 00:52:10.106
We do an annual off-site.

656
00:52:10.626 --> 00:52:15.808
I like when the team meets up as smaller groups throughout the year as well.

657
00:52:16.008 --> 00:52:16.608
That happens.

658
00:52:17.168 --> 00:52:18.648
And I want it to happen more, if I'm honest.

659
00:52:19.228 --> 00:52:22.229
But the value of the in-person cannot be replicated.

660
00:52:22.349 --> 00:52:26.350
And I think what you and I are both espousing is flexibility, not dogma.

661
00:52:26.870 --> 00:52:29.171
And flexibility, but also...

662
00:52:30.031 --> 00:52:32.352
I think that in person and then what?

663
00:52:32.972 --> 00:52:44.775
So I say, when I bring people in person, I want to create connections that are fun, meaningful, elicit the desire for more.

664
00:52:44.875 --> 00:52:48.116
So, you know, any activity is good.

665
00:52:48.256 --> 00:52:53.818
I happen to do it with storytelling because I think that we are storytellers and relationships are stories.

666
00:52:54.558 --> 00:53:02.666
I think that one of our biggest challenges is how do you deal in relationships with the fact that somebody has a completely different story about the same relationship as you?

667
00:53:03.567 --> 00:53:06.169
And that's where a lot of conflict comes in.

668
00:53:06.189 --> 00:53:07.050
That's not what happened.

669
00:53:07.150 --> 00:53:10.914
I'll tell you what happened because my brain is more accurate than yours.

670
00:53:11.615 --> 00:53:14.297
Oh, that's worth repeating because it's just so funny and so true.

671
00:53:14.337 --> 00:53:15.358
That's not what happened.

672
00:53:15.759 --> 00:53:16.860
I'll tell you what happened.

673
00:53:17.200 --> 00:53:18.841
Oh my God, we've all done it.

674
00:53:18.861 --> 00:53:19.861
We've definitely all thought.

675
00:53:19.881 --> 00:53:20.661
Of course, I know.

676
00:53:21.762 --> 00:53:23.643
You know, my brain works, yours doesn't.

677
00:53:23.743 --> 00:53:29.425
And I do it, you know, with the courses, I do it with the podcast, I do it with the card game.

678
00:53:29.605 --> 00:53:35.968
But the concept behind it is, how do I help people who don't go out enough

679
00:53:36.688 --> 00:53:40.811
and don't speak enough in serendipitous, impromptu situations.

680
00:53:41.551 --> 00:53:42.572
Know what to say.

681
00:53:42.993 --> 00:53:44.053
Ask questions.

682
00:53:44.874 --> 00:53:45.835
Learn to listen.

683
00:53:46.335 --> 00:53:48.496
Learn to tell stories about themselves.

684
00:53:48.596 --> 00:53:53.780
Realize what it means to be revealing of oneself within limits, in the workplace.

685
00:53:54.240 --> 00:53:57.203
And I think one of the things that the Lions did...

686
00:53:57.943 --> 00:53:58.684
is play.

687
00:53:59.064 --> 00:54:00.986
So a card game is play.

688
00:54:01.166 --> 00:54:15.158
I wanted to use play to create these meaningful connections, which I know for fact improve the relationship culture in the workplace, which therefore for facts improves performance in the workplace.

689
00:54:15.358 --> 00:54:17.679
I mean, I think you said it best, and I think it's a nice place.

690
00:54:17.779 --> 00:54:27.405
It's a nice button for us to conclude, which is which is play doesn't necessarily mean, you know, a game of of foosball or ping pong or something.

691
00:54:27.945 --> 00:54:32.207
Play is just is bringing some sort of lighthearted interaction.

692
00:54:32.227 --> 00:54:36.910
When you and I go out for dinner, you and I have sometimes very intense conversations.

693
00:54:36.930 --> 00:54:37.510
Yeah.

694
00:54:37.650 --> 00:54:40.113
we disagree sometimes, sometimes we pick at each other.

695
00:54:40.433 --> 00:54:47.162
And at the end of every time we get together, the end of every dinner, we both leave and say, I had such so much fun, I had such a good time.

696
00:54:48.443 --> 00:54:49.925
And I think because this is what play means.

697
00:54:49.945 --> 00:54:52.508
You know what is play is when risk is fun.

698
00:54:55.291 --> 00:54:59.553
And what you described was a concern about comfort and discomfort.

699
00:54:59.673 --> 00:54:59.793
Yeah.

700
00:55:00.334 --> 00:55:05.376
I am less on the spending side, making sure people are not uncomfortable and all of that.

701
00:55:05.616 --> 00:55:05.776
Yeah.

702
00:55:05.876 --> 00:55:14.460
I spend more time at this moment helping people take risks because, you know, we tend to say that only when you trust can you take risks.

703
00:55:14.781 --> 00:55:19.403
But it is also true that when you can take risks, it increases your ability to trust.

704
00:55:19.643 --> 00:55:21.664
your abilities and other people.

705
00:55:22.084 --> 00:55:34.547
And when we can understand that we treat work as play and relationships as play, and all of these things that don't have fixed rules and agreed upon outcomes, agreed upon finish lines, that the mindset must be play.

706
00:55:35.427 --> 00:55:45.829
And that in turn, to your point, reduces stress, increases productivity, increases the quality of our relationships, gets us to see each other as contributors rather than competitors.

707
00:55:48.817 --> 00:55:52.080
And it just makes cultures, relationships work better.

708
00:55:52.421 --> 00:55:57.165
When you view as many aspects of your life as play, you're playing the infinite game.

709
00:55:57.486 --> 00:55:59.688
Another way for play would be engagement.

710
00:56:00.949 --> 00:56:01.249
100%.

711
00:56:01.269 --> 00:56:01.470
100%.

712
00:56:02.731 --> 00:56:03.692
It's that.

713
00:56:03.712 --> 00:56:10.278
For those of us who don't like the word play, I just think replace it with engagement and this will make a tremendous amount of sense.

714
00:56:10.459 --> 00:56:10.939
I like it.

715
00:56:11.059 --> 00:56:11.760
I like it a lot.

716
00:56:12.104 --> 00:56:18.628
What's the number one relationship skill Gen Z should master before starting their first job?

717
00:56:20.589 --> 00:56:21.550
Talk to strangers.

718
00:56:23.431 --> 00:56:24.792
Ooh, say more.

719
00:56:24.832 --> 00:56:25.732
Didn't expect that one.

720
00:56:25.872 --> 00:56:28.234
I mean, when you spend all your time like this...

721
00:56:29.344 --> 00:56:30.985
You don't notice who's around you.

722
00:56:31.245 --> 00:56:32.865
You don't talk to people on a plane.

723
00:56:32.885 --> 00:56:34.546
You don't talk to people in a queue.

724
00:56:34.586 --> 00:56:37.447
You don't talk to people while you're waiting for your coffee.

725
00:56:37.467 --> 00:56:38.987
I mean, you don't talk to strangers.

726
00:56:39.848 --> 00:56:48.831
And talking to strangers is improvisation, spontaneity, serendipity, surprise, novelty, you know, an active engagement with the unknown.

727
00:56:49.991 --> 00:56:54.657
which is actually one of the definitions that Rachel Botsman gives to what is trust.

728
00:56:54.817 --> 00:56:57.039
Trust is an active engagement with the unknown.

729
00:56:57.460 --> 00:56:59.862
If you don't know to talk to strangers, you have less trust.

730
00:57:01.084 --> 00:57:04.788
And entering the workplace is talking to strangers.

731
00:57:06.250 --> 00:57:20.855
If you just came out of whatever school you've done or not done and done any other preparation, but any first job is a series of conversations with strangers without knowing what they really want from you, without knowing how they look at you, without understanding the codes.

732
00:57:21.255 --> 00:57:23.136
You know, you've just been 12 years in school.

733
00:57:23.156 --> 00:57:25.276
You kind of figured out what's the deal.

734
00:57:25.517 --> 00:57:26.557
What are the social norms?

735
00:57:26.737 --> 00:57:29.578
You find yourself in any job, any kind of job.

736
00:57:29.618 --> 00:57:30.218
You're looking around.

737
00:57:30.238 --> 00:57:31.539
It's like moving to a new country.

738
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:32.279
Yeah.

739
00:57:33.050 --> 00:57:40.873
Which further highlights what we're saying about, which is the biggest at risk population is not little kids.

740
00:57:41.633 --> 00:57:43.053
It's entry level employees.

741
00:57:43.673 --> 00:57:47.755
Now, I will add, talking to strangers is sometimes a lot of fun.

742
00:57:48.818 --> 00:57:50.299
and sometimes uncomfortable.

743
00:57:50.820 --> 00:57:53.782
And the discomfort piece is a part of life.

744
00:57:54.482 --> 00:57:58.505
The only way you deal with it is by repeating until it becomes practice.

745
00:57:58.645 --> 00:58:01.828
Any skill you will learn at first has an element of discomfort.

746
00:58:02.408 --> 00:58:07.432
I think that we've put comfort and discomfort so much in the center of life at this moment,

747
00:58:07.752 --> 00:58:12.433
Because all these apps are supposed to give us frictionless life that is so comfortable.

748
00:58:12.933 --> 00:58:17.994
And we bring those very expectations to places where that is not the norm.

749
00:58:18.395 --> 00:58:21.215
Life is complex and it is all of these other things.

750
00:58:21.595 --> 00:58:26.556
So I think talking to strangers, which is a thing that often parents say, don't talk to strangers.

751
00:58:26.636 --> 00:58:27.417
No, no, no.

752
00:58:27.577 --> 00:58:29.497
Absolutely talk to strangers.

753
00:58:30.657 --> 00:58:31.278
So good.

754
00:58:32.378 --> 00:58:32.958
So good.

755
00:58:33.989 --> 00:58:40.065
What's one daily habit that leaders can use to stay true to their priorities when work and home demands collide?

756
00:58:41.509 --> 00:58:42.492
Oh, that's a beautiful one.

757
00:58:45.291 --> 00:58:51.053
What is one thing that leaders can be when they experience the tension between home and work?

758
00:58:51.873 --> 00:58:58.014
I think for some people, it's 10 minutes of meditation in the morning, 20, whatever.

759
00:58:58.034 --> 00:59:01.835
I mean, just quiet by themselves where you have to accomplish nothing.

760
00:59:01.855 --> 00:59:04.256
You don't have to meet the needs of home or work.

761
00:59:04.836 --> 00:59:12.078
You just have to be in your breath in the moment, you know, in thoughts or without thoughts, depending on the practice of meditation.

762
00:59:12.538 --> 00:59:14.819
But the meditation can also be movement.

763
00:59:14.879 --> 00:59:15.739
It can be biking.

764
00:59:15.799 --> 00:59:17.179
It can be walking.

765
00:59:17.239 --> 00:59:19.840
It can be, you know, so it's.

766
00:59:19.960 --> 00:59:22.561
It's active disengagement from the.

767
00:59:22.901 --> 00:59:24.581
From the responsibility.

768
00:59:24.701 --> 00:59:26.082
From the responsibility.

769
00:59:26.182 --> 00:59:26.442
Yeah.

770
00:59:26.662 --> 00:59:31.344
You know, it's a moment where you don't have to answer anything.

771
00:59:31.424 --> 00:59:33.304
You don't have to solve any problem.

772
00:59:33.344 --> 00:59:34.945
You don't have to be accountable.

773
00:59:35.365 --> 00:59:39.627
And if it's only five minutes because of the reality of your life, let it be five minutes.

774
00:59:39.927 --> 00:59:49.050
But to have a moment that is in a third space away from the obligations, the duties, the responsibility, the accountability of each one.

775
00:59:49.410 --> 00:59:51.371
And it's how it pinges on you.

776
00:59:52.472 --> 00:59:58.337
And for people who are uncomfortable with the concept of meditation or don't know how to do it, it doesn't matter what you do.

777
00:59:58.637 --> 01:00:04.862
The way I do it every single morning, I sit in bed, I do Wordle, I do connections, and I do the crossword puzzle in that order.

778
01:00:04.882 --> 01:00:07.905
Wordle, crossword, puzzle, end?

779
01:00:08.205 --> 01:00:09.986
Wordle, connections, and then crossword.

780
01:00:10.467 --> 01:00:11.868
And always in that order.

781
01:00:12.300 --> 01:00:15.043
You know, I think meditation can be totally in movement.

782
01:00:15.483 --> 01:00:20.027
I'm using the word more metaphorically than in its literal sense.

783
01:00:20.388 --> 01:00:22.610
I think connecting is very important.

784
01:00:22.650 --> 01:00:37.583
I mean, I've asked many people high into tech and AI, you know, to connect with one person every day, different people if need be, but just brief and with voice, not just with text, even if it's a voice message.

785
01:00:37.944 --> 01:00:38.064
Yeah.

786
01:00:38.084 --> 01:00:38.184
Yeah.

787
01:00:38.404 --> 01:00:42.446
I think that we need to really hear the voice is the first thing we hear in utero.

788
01:00:42.466 --> 01:00:44.366
We need to listen to the voice of people.

789
01:00:44.406 --> 01:00:49.428
We will be misinterpreting each other a lot less if we hear the voice.

790
01:00:50.048 --> 01:00:58.692
But in all, every one of my examples... That's how you fix 55 misinterpretations on an email that escalates, is you have one phone call and it's resolved in five minutes.

791
01:00:58.712 --> 01:00:58.912
Please.

792
01:00:59.812 --> 01:01:00.312
Please.

793
01:01:02.213 --> 01:01:02.573
Yes.

794
01:01:02.713 --> 01:01:11.636
You are one of the most, you are one of the wisest, lucid, clearest commentators on the world as we know it today.

795
01:01:11.656 --> 01:01:12.756
Oh, wow.

796
01:01:13.056 --> 01:01:14.957
And I think, I hope,

797
01:01:15.397 --> 01:01:28.343
I know that your current work is bringing what you've learned from years of relationship therapy into the workplace, which, as we've already determined, is irrelevant in terms of the context because it's about human relationships.

798
01:01:28.363 --> 01:01:32.265
The quality of your relationships determine the quality of your life.

799
01:01:32.485 --> 01:01:34.165
At work and at home.

800
01:01:34.486 --> 01:01:35.606
And at work and at home.

801
01:01:36.246 --> 01:01:37.087
And you are...

802
01:01:37.767 --> 01:01:39.309
You are the OG.

803
01:01:39.349 --> 01:01:41.011
You are the Mac Daddy.

804
01:01:41.391 --> 01:01:41.972
You are the best.

805
01:01:42.032 --> 01:01:45.736
I'm such a fan of you, your work, and I'm so glad I get to call you friend.

806
01:01:45.756 --> 01:01:47.959
It's mutual.

807
01:01:48.039 --> 01:01:49.140
And thank you so much.

808
01:01:50.541 --> 01:01:50.862
I love you.

809
01:01:50.882 --> 01:01:51.523
I'll talk to you soon.

810
01:01:51.543 --> 01:01:52.444
Bye-bye.

811
01:01:53.134 --> 01:02:01.336
A Bit of Optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius and Devin Johnson.

812
01:02:02.136 --> 01:02:10.618
If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more.

813
01:02:11.318 --> 01:02:16.920
And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help.

814
01:02:17.440 --> 01:02:19.360
Simply go to simonsynic.com.

815
01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:22.981
Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.

816
01:02:23.041 --> 01:02:23.108
you