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AI is not smart.

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AI doesn't know the consequences of its actions.

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It doesn't have inherent ethics.

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Those companies keep on borrowing and spending more money in order to power all of the AI, but they're borrowing more than they're making.

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We literally could get into a debt bubble.

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You do think we're in a bubble, don't you?

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Yeah.

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What causes it to burst?

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I'll tell you this.

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So what are the most sort of foundational things I need to understand, the Mark Cuban that we've all grown to love, from the Shark Tank and the businesses and the Dallas Mavs?

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So business was an area where I was always ahead of the curve, no matter how old I was.

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Growing up, I went door-to-door in the neighborhood selling garbage bags, and that probably catapulted me more than anything, because if you can go door-to-door and sell, you can do anything.

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like on a shark tank.

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When somebody walked in and told me about their company, I knew exactly how I would sell it.

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What are the sort of consistent themes amongst all people that become an entrepreneur?

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Well, you've gotta find one thing and be great at it.

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And then find a way to turn that something into a business.

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Next, if you're gonna do anything with technology, media, whatever it may be, you better be ahead of the curve because business is like a sport.

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If you don't keep on getting better and improving your game, you're not gonna be able to compete.

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But what we don't talk about is what do I suck at?

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Suck at it.

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And one of the biggest mistakes I made was I was a jerk.

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I would yell.

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I would scream.

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And I found that I got a lot further by being nice than by being a dick.

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The last thing I wanted to ask you about is your more recent decisions around leaving Shark Tank, selling the Mavs.

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I'll tell you this.

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That tells you all you need to know.

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Got some wonderful photos here that we... Yeah, that's my brother Brian.

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Brian, he wrote you a letter.

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Oh, my god.

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I'll probably start crying.

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Guys, I've got a favour to ask before this episode begins.

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The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed.

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So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know.

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And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button.

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But also, it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make the show better.

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And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button.

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.

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There are so many things happening in the world at the moment, and just specifically focusing in on business and technology and AI.

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One of the remarkable things I often reference about you is in spite of your success, you continue to self-educate.

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And I've watched this in you over multiple cycles of technology.

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When crypto became a thing, when AI showed up, one of the first things I see on my timeline is Mark Cuban going back to school.

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Yeah, for sure.

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What's going on in your head at the moment?

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To me, business is like a sport.

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And if you don't keep on getting better and improving your game, you're not going to be able to compete.

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And if you're going to do anything with technology, media, whatever it may be, you better be ahead of the curve.

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Otherwise, there's going to be some kid in high school somewhere who's going to kick your ass.

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And I want to be the one doing the ass kicking instead of getting their ass kicked.

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What are the most sort of foundational things I need to know about your earliest context to understand the Mark Cuban that we've all grown to love and know from the Shark Tank and the businesses and the Dallas Mavs?

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I think I just grew up in a regular family and just had the piss and vinegar in me to always want to compete, like I said, and I was able to turn an idea into a business and be successful.

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And you had very formative parents by the sounds of things?

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Yeah, I mean, I had great upbringing.

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My dad did upholstery on cars, pure blue collar.

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My mom did odd jobs.

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Yeah, that's my grandparents, my mom.

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My mom was only 20 when I was born.

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You've got some more wonderful photos here.

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That's my brother Brian, who's the middle brother, and my dad.

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That's when we lived on Meadowlark in Pittsburgh.

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Yeah.

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Your father never made more than $40,000 in his life?

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Never.

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No.

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He would be up at work and gone by the time we were leaving for school.

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He actually lost an eye when he was doing upholstery.

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There was a staple that broke when I was in sixth grade, but he just always was a grinder and just, they're amazing.

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I miss him.

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You miss him?

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I miss them both.

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Everywhere we went, he always had friends.

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And if he didn't know people there, they quickly became his friends.

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And I think that set a great example for my brothers and I more than anything.

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What are some of those sort of high-level lessons that you always reference come from him?

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You know, he would say things that, like, you don't live in the world you were born into.

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You know, today's the youngest you'll ever be.

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That big thing where, you know, no matter what hustle I had going on, he was always supportive.

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Always.

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And what did you think you were going to be when you were older at that age in those photos?

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Oh, a baseball player.

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Really?

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Yeah, I was good, but not good enough.

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But then after that, it became apparent that I was going to be a business guy.

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I mean, I think it was apparent from your... Yeah, selling baseball cards when I was a kid.

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Yeah.

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Oh my God, you got some good ones.

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I mean, you also started selling some of these, I hear, as well.

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Yeah, so what I would do is... Yeah, so when I was like nine or ten years old, I would go to the local pharmacy and they would sell packs of baseball cards.

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Yeah.

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And I would buy a bunch of them with my allowance.

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And then I would repackage them using, like, the comics and everything from the paper.

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Buy these for, like, it cost me like a quarter.

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Buy them for 50 cents.

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You're guaranteed to get a Pittsburgh Pirate, like Roberto Clemente or Willie Stargell.

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And I would sell them and make money.

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Then I'd go and turn it around and make more.

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Yeah.

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And that literally was my first start in hustling.

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And then one day, my dad was playing poker with his buddies.

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You know, they'd rotate to each other's houses.

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And they were at our house.

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And I went in there to grab a donut.

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And I was like, Dad, I want a new pair of basketball shoes.

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And he looks at my feet and he goes, those shoes work.

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When you have a job, you can buy whatever you want.

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I'm like, Dad, I'm 12.

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And one of his buddies who had to have been drunk was like, hey, I got something you can sell.

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I've got boxes of garbage bags that I'll sell to you for $3 and you can sell them for $6.

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And literally, I went door to door in the neighborhood and I'll be like, hi, I'm your neighbor, Mark.

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Do you use garbage bags?

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Easy sell, right?

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And that probably catapulted me more than anything because if you can go door to door and sell,

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You can do anything.

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This idea of selling is sort of very top of mind for you in terms of one of the ultimate skills of building, becoming an entrepreneur.

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And it's so funny because I spent a lot of time in call centers when I was younger doing cold calls.

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But I always say that the best sales experience is door-to-door sales.

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Or call centers, right?

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Every no gets you closer to a yes, right?

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Just knowing how to deal with people telling you no and how to deal with objections and how to respond quickly.

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It just trains your mind to be quick.

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And once you can sell, I mean, you have a job for life.

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Why is selling so important as it relates to becoming an entrepreneur?

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No business has ever succeeded without sales.

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And if you don't think your product or service is so good that you're dying to sell it, that you think that by talking to somebody about whatever product it is, you're not helping them, right?

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Because that's the whole point of sales.

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You know, when you were in that call center, what did you sell?

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Right.

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Yeah, everything.

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Windows, doors, conservatories, double glazing.

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Right, right.

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And it was all about helping them.

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And you'd have the objections.

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And I'd go sell it.

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I was selling magazines door to door.

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Once you learn how to sell, once you learn how to deal with objections, once your mind is spinning, waiting, and reacting, just like you did in a call center, what can't you sell?

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Are there any principles of being a good salesperson?

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Or even on Shark Tank, when you see someone come in and they're great at sales, what are those principles?

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You care.

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Yeah.

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you know your product, you want to help people.

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You're not trying to convince them to do something against their interests.

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You're trying to understand and learn their interests and help them achieve their goals or whatever your product may happen to do.

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It may be, hey, you don't have to go to the store and pick up a back, or it may be when you're selling something, you know, Windows,

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You know, you don't want to look through those dirty windows.

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You know, you know there's a crack.

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You know your electricity bill is up way too high because of your windows, and we're here to replace them.

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And for only $17 a month, we'll save you, you know, it'll more than pay for itself in the electricity bill, right?

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Like on a shark tank, when somebody walked in and told me about their company, I knew exactly how I would sell it or could not sell it.

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And once you can do that...

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you're always going to be able to get a job.

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And if you are an entrepreneur or want to be an entrepreneur and you find something that you love and a product or service you love, then selling it's easy.

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You know, oftentimes we hear about people becoming wildly successful, billionaires, because they came up with some tech idea.

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It was their first thing, like a Zuckerberg.

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Right.

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And it becomes this huge success.

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And they're like 25.

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Right.

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So sometimes when we're like 32...

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We missed the boat, right?

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Yeah, we missed the boat.

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But then when I read your story, I think you were like 31 years old, 32 years old, and your first business was sold for $2 million, which is a... Well, it sold for five.

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I netted two.

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You netted two, okay.

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What is the big misconception that young people these days have about what it takes, whether it's in terms of sacrifice or time or patience or compounding skills?

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Because they are incredibly impatient, I think.

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Yeah, I mean, I was just as impatient, but...

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I think it really depends on your personal circumstances.

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Like, I had nothing to lose.

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I was broke.

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You know, I had gotten fired from a job.

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So starting microsolutions was an easy choice.

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I was living six guys in a three-bedroom apartment, didn't have my own bedroom.

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So it was like, why not?

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Why not?

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And I remember being terrified and thinking, okay, I've been in business one month.

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That's a win.

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Three months, six months, nine months.

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I have $15,000 in accounts receivable.

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You know, I'm on my way of moving out of this shithole I live in.

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So it really depends on your personal circumstances.

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But I always tell young entrepreneurs, like, if you're broke and you've got nothing to lose,

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You know, even if you're working a job, like I was working as a bartender and, you know, go out and do what you got to do and start what you've got to start.

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I think one of the big misconceptions is, A, you have to raise money.

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And B, if you do raise money, hitting big sales numbers is like the ultimate end-all be-all as opposed to being profitable.

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For Microsolutions, our entire eight-year existence, we were profitable every single month.

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I mean, we made sure that we sold enough and kept our costs in line so that I was going to be able to stay alive and keep on moving forward.

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And I think kids today, they hear the stories about the Zuckerbergs and, you know, Sam Altmans, and it's like billions of dollars by the time you're, you know,

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12.

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And they think, okay, that's the way I'll do it.

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They went out to Silicon Valley and they raised all this money.

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And they don't even realize that the greatest number of successful people aren't the billionaires, right?

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It's the people that have made a few million, 5 million, 10 million, 25, 50, a hundred million dollars.

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There's a multiple number of people in that, those set of circumstances.

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And I'm not saying it's easy to get there, but

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But it's doable, right?

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It's not a Silicon Valley dream.

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It's the American dream.

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And it's where you are and what you can do and what skills you have to accomplish it that makes the difference when you get started.

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What are, if I'm trying to become a millionaire, let's say, what are the sort of consistent things

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themes amongst all people that become millionaires, 10, you know, a 10 millionaire, a hundred millionaire.

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Is there like certain principles that you're going to need regardless of what industry you're playing in?

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Of course.

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So we talked about sales.

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Yeah, sales, obviously.

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But, you know, to be a millionaire, I think you've just got to be really good at something.

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and then find a way to turn that something into a business.

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It may be sales.

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It may be programming.

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It may be tinkering.

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It may be drawing.

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It may be being a creator, whatever it may be.

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But if you're not good at it,

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There's no business that you start that's going to make you a millionaire.

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You know, you got to be good at something.

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This brings me to the point about focus, because lots of entrepreneurs, I'm sure you get this a lot in Shark Tank, but outside of the tank, is they think that having three ideas or three things...

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Is increasing their odds.

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Right.

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No, that's ridiculous.

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Or they say, I want to be an entrepreneur.

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What should I do?

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What business should I start?

223
00:12:19.873 --> 00:12:21.314
I'm like, oh, my God.

224
00:12:21.755 --> 00:12:24.417
No, you've got to find one thing and be great at it.

225
00:12:24.817 --> 00:12:27.739
Because once you're great at something, doors open up wide.

226
00:12:28.099 --> 00:12:32.222
Because if it's not your company, then they got to keep you because you're great.

227
00:12:32.883 --> 00:12:40.491
And whoever you compete with in that company, they're looking and saying, wow, you know, Stephen's great, you know, or Mark's great.

228
00:12:40.832 --> 00:12:42.674
And then you're like, I'm great at this.

229
00:12:42.714 --> 00:12:46.598
Maybe if I want to be an entrepreneur, I can start a business about what I'm great at.

230
00:12:46.659 --> 00:12:48.781
What are you most likely to become great at?

231
00:12:49.041 --> 00:12:49.962
Where you spend your time.

232
00:12:50.663 --> 00:12:52.604
Like people think it's about passion.

233
00:12:52.824 --> 00:12:53.625
Oh, I'm passionate.

234
00:12:54.065 --> 00:12:55.646
I was passionate to be a baseball player.

235
00:12:56.427 --> 00:12:57.207
Basketball player.

236
00:12:57.608 --> 00:12:59.589
Didn't help me at all, right?

237
00:13:00.109 --> 00:13:05.212
And I think when you realize where you're spending your time is where you find things that you like to do.

238
00:13:05.633 --> 00:13:13.217
And when you like to do something, if it's convertible to a business at all, then you keep on getting better and better and better.

239
00:13:13.237 --> 00:13:18.141
Because it's like anything else, whether it's tech, selling windows, right?

240
00:13:18.181 --> 00:13:19.902
Whatever it is, installing windows.

241
00:13:21.009 --> 00:13:25.574
When you start realizing you're better than the people around you, your confidence goes up.

242
00:13:25.974 --> 00:13:27.976
Your willingness to learn more goes up.

243
00:13:28.016 --> 00:13:31.980
You want to find how you can be even better so you could be the absolute best.

244
00:13:32.300 --> 00:13:38.026
When those things happen, you can start a company and there's no limit to what you can do.

245
00:13:38.458 --> 00:13:42.500
I've spent a lot of time recently thinking about long-termism as an idea.

246
00:13:42.540 --> 00:13:49.722
And what I mean by this is, it's just interesting that when you take a longer-term view to almost anything, like you have in many sort of endeavors in your career.

247
00:13:49.742 --> 00:13:51.323
Yeah, right.

248
00:13:51.723 --> 00:13:53.364
I was thinking about the mouse there.

249
00:13:53.464 --> 00:13:53.644
Yep.

250
00:13:54.144 --> 00:13:57.626
It's interesting how today's decisions change and how that creates a moat.

251
00:13:58.507 --> 00:14:03.971
Because we live in a world, I think, where people plan sometimes in quarterly cycles or sometimes they plan their lives in five-year seasons.

252
00:14:04.371 --> 00:14:09.734
But there's a couple of entrepreneurs that I look out into the world and think, oh, they were thinking like 10, 20 years.

253
00:14:09.754 --> 00:14:10.435
That wasn't me.

254
00:14:10.955 --> 00:14:11.276
Oh, really?

255
00:14:11.296 --> 00:14:12.137
Yeah.

256
00:14:12.397 --> 00:14:14.159
What about with the Mavs, though?

257
00:14:14.199 --> 00:14:17.022
So when I got into the, with the Mavs and I bought the Mavs.

258
00:14:17.182 --> 00:14:18.404
Which is a basketball team for anyone.

259
00:14:18.444 --> 00:14:19.405
Basketball team, yeah.

260
00:14:19.745 --> 00:14:20.306
In the NBA.

261
00:14:20.366 --> 00:14:23.269
And so I was a basketball junkie, right?

262
00:14:23.289 --> 00:14:26.894
And I was a season ticket holder and went to a game and I was like, wait.

263
00:14:27.753 --> 00:14:29.214
maybe I could buy this team, right?

264
00:14:29.234 --> 00:14:30.575
Because I just made all this money.

265
00:14:30.595 --> 00:14:32.256
And I was like, that sounds fun.

266
00:14:32.456 --> 00:14:38.160
And I did it not because it was a business, not because I saw this long, you know, horizon of owning the team.

267
00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:40.942
I thought this could just really be fun.

268
00:14:41.422 --> 00:14:46.786
And what could be better than, you know, going and shooting baskets with Dirk Nowitzki or Steve Nash and Michael Finley.

269
00:14:46.806 --> 00:14:48.067
So that's what got me into it.

270
00:14:48.627 --> 00:14:50.708
But I didn't even really look at it as a business.

271
00:14:50.748 --> 00:14:50.768
I

272
00:14:53.270 --> 00:14:55.432
an intellectual endeavor, right?

273
00:14:55.452 --> 00:14:56.593
An intellectual challenge.

274
00:14:56.933 --> 00:15:04.999
Can I take a team that was awful and got voted the worst professional sports franchise of the previous decade and turn it into a winning team?

275
00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:07.121
And that was my goal.

276
00:15:07.702 --> 00:15:12.165
And for a long time, it was stressful because I'm so competitive losing a game.

277
00:15:12.465 --> 00:15:14.447
It would take me two days to get over a loss.

278
00:15:14.987 --> 00:15:18.890
But then it got to the point, you know, not long before I sold where I'm,

279
00:15:19.851 --> 00:15:23.914
In my opinion, it went from being about basketball to being about valuations.

280
00:15:24.494 --> 00:15:32.800
And it went from, hey, I love basketball and this is all about basketball to the NBA being more about, OK, how much are these teams worth?

281
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:38.544
And the conversation is not being about how can we make the game better, but how can we make it more valuable?

282
00:15:38.764 --> 00:15:39.265
And to me...

283
00:15:40.065 --> 00:15:47.208
That just created more stress, you know, because in order to compete, you had to be good at real estate and things that had nothing to do with basketball.

284
00:15:47.228 --> 00:15:56.312
So I wish I could tell you that I was like, okay, I have this 25-year horizon, but I can't tell you, I never thought I would sell, but then things changed around me.

285
00:15:56.332 --> 00:15:58.813
And I guess, you know, having kids changed me as well.

286
00:15:59.193 --> 00:16:00.774
You bought the team for, is it $200 million?

287
00:16:00.794 --> 00:16:00.994
285, yeah.

288
00:16:01.014 --> 00:16:01.514
And you sold it for?

289
00:16:01.534 --> 00:16:01.614
4.3.

290
00:16:01.634 --> 00:16:01.955
Billion.

291
00:16:01.975 --> 00:16:02.195
Yeah.

292
00:16:02.215 --> 00:16:02.335
Yeah.

293
00:16:06.708 --> 00:16:11.931
What I find interesting is the point you just made about you'll become great at the things where you want to spend your time on them.

294
00:16:12.472 --> 00:16:18.996
And again, the point you made before that was entrepreneurs, when they come to you and say, I want to be an entrepreneur, and then they go looking for an idea, tend to fail.

295
00:16:19.416 --> 00:16:25.920
This is a prime example of you doing exactly what you described, where it was somewhere you wanted to spend your time, which meant that you became good at it.

296
00:16:25.961 --> 00:16:26.641
I loved it, yeah.

297
00:16:26.861 --> 00:16:27.161
Yeah.

298
00:16:27.742 --> 00:16:32.445
I saw how the team's performance drastically improved over the years that were...

299
00:16:32.985 --> 00:16:40.632
You were the majority owner, but also some of the things you implemented around data and performance and technology into the mouse.

300
00:16:41.412 --> 00:16:42.794
And it becomes a great business.

301
00:16:43.674 --> 00:16:45.336
Not a bad business, yeah.

302
00:16:45.356 --> 00:16:46.837
It turned out a big great business, yeah.

303
00:16:46.877 --> 00:16:47.518
You just don't know.

304
00:16:47.538 --> 00:16:49.399
But when you're doing something you love, right?

305
00:16:49.459 --> 00:16:52.342
It's the old cliche, you know, you don't work a day in your life, but it's true.

306
00:16:52.542 --> 00:16:54.023
How do you define success?

307
00:16:54.464 --> 00:16:57.566
Waking up in the morning with a smile on your face, excited about the day.

308
00:16:57.907 --> 00:16:58.047
Mm-hmm.

309
00:16:58.267 --> 00:16:58.948
And that's hard.

310
00:16:59.809 --> 00:17:01.111
Most people can't do that.

311
00:17:01.472 --> 00:17:03.435
Most people look and they say, okay, I got to go to work.

312
00:17:04.136 --> 00:17:05.097
You know, I got to do this.

313
00:17:05.117 --> 00:17:08.503
I've got these five things I got to get done or, you know, whatever.

314
00:17:09.003 --> 00:17:13.530
I always, even when I was broke, I was fired up, you know, and the Mavs,

315
00:17:14.472 --> 00:17:19.316
you know, got me, it was, it was amazing because sports are so much different than every other business.

316
00:17:19.796 --> 00:17:22.679
You can work for a company like Google and they have the best quarter ever.

317
00:17:22.719 --> 00:17:23.580
They set records.

318
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:26.262
You know, Apple becomes the most valuable company in the world.

319
00:17:26.642 --> 00:17:27.643
Nobody throws a parade.

320
00:17:28.624 --> 00:17:40.073
If you win a championship, the whole city's on fire and they're throwing parades and a half a million, a million people converge on downtown and a hundred degrees heat to scream at the players and everybody.

321
00:17:40.093 --> 00:17:41.294
So that's just so different.

322
00:17:41.375 --> 00:17:42.916
And that's what made the map special.

323
00:17:43.958 --> 00:17:46.539
Is that amongst your best days in your life, winning the championship?

324
00:17:47.180 --> 00:17:48.440
Business-wise, yeah, for sure.

325
00:17:48.800 --> 00:17:53.603
Yeah, and I'll tell you this, you know, it was so anticlimactic internally for me.

326
00:17:54.143 --> 00:17:58.145
I've seen so many games where we thought we were going to win and ended up losing them.

327
00:17:58.765 --> 00:18:01.507
And they had LeBron and, you know, et cetera.

328
00:18:01.567 --> 00:18:02.247
And I was like...

329
00:18:02.667 --> 00:18:06.650
okay, we're up by 10 points with 30 seconds to go.

330
00:18:06.930 --> 00:18:08.651
There's no chance that we're losing this.

331
00:18:09.072 --> 00:18:10.012
And then they hit a three.

332
00:18:10.052 --> 00:18:11.353
I'm like, oh, shut the fuck up, Mark.

333
00:18:11.413 --> 00:18:11.653
Right.

334
00:18:12.054 --> 00:18:13.595
And then we got to the point where we won.

335
00:18:13.655 --> 00:18:17.757
I'm like, okay, the clouds should open up and the sun should shine.

336
00:18:17.837 --> 00:18:20.019
And I just realized, oh, this is great.

337
00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:21.260
I'm screaming and yelling, but

338
00:18:22.309 --> 00:18:22.749
Now what?

339
00:18:23.369 --> 00:18:23.690
Oh, shit.

340
00:18:23.730 --> 00:18:24.750
What comes next?

341
00:18:24.950 --> 00:18:30.772
And it wasn't so much how I felt and hugging all the guys and hugging everybody, but it was how the city felt.

342
00:18:31.493 --> 00:18:44.537
And that's what really made it special when I would take the trophy to schools, I would take it to bars, I would take it to restaurants, I would take it to my kids' events, whatever it was, and to see their eyes light up.

343
00:18:44.598 --> 00:18:48.039
Just that communal joy, that's what made it special.

344
00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.023
You said there's many people that are listening that are basically trapped.

345
00:18:52.344 --> 00:18:53.105
Well, they feel trapped.

346
00:18:53.125 --> 00:18:57.530
They feel stuck in a nine-to-five job, living paycheck to paycheck.

347
00:18:57.770 --> 00:18:58.271
I've been there.

348
00:18:58.351 --> 00:18:58.892
You've been there.

349
00:19:00.414 --> 00:19:01.715
What advice would you have for them?

350
00:19:01.935 --> 00:19:02.516
They might have...

351
00:19:03.422 --> 00:19:04.642
$1,000 in savings.

352
00:19:05.342 --> 00:19:06.903
And they're trying to get out of that situation.

353
00:19:07.043 --> 00:19:08.743
Is there some type of life raft?

354
00:19:08.783 --> 00:19:10.303
Are there principles of how to escape?

355
00:19:10.803 --> 00:19:13.064
I say this to new college graduates all the time.

356
00:19:13.484 --> 00:19:16.424
Don't go get the best job, because that's the hardest to find.

357
00:19:16.804 --> 00:19:19.325
Don't get the perfect job, because those are hard to find.

358
00:19:19.545 --> 00:19:20.825
Just get a job.

359
00:19:21.245 --> 00:19:24.366
And when you have a job, just work to be really good at it.

360
00:19:24.806 --> 00:19:27.166
The second part of that is you have to be brutally honest with yourself.

361
00:19:27.386 --> 00:19:30.227
Because nobody looks at the job they're doing and says, I suck, right?

362
00:19:30.487 --> 00:19:31.787
They're like, oh, I'm great at this.

363
00:19:31.807 --> 00:19:32.987
They just don't realize it.

364
00:19:33.247 --> 00:19:35.528
No, you have to be honest and talk to people around you.

365
00:19:35.889 --> 00:19:39.310
But when you're really good at something, that's when doors do open up.

366
00:19:39.511 --> 00:19:56.620
And even in the worst possible job, you know, you could be working at a McDonald's, at a Dairy Queen, but there's a path, you know, and if you understand how to move up that path, even though your life mission isn't to be the manager of a McDonald's or a Dairy Queen or whatever, the fact that you can show a future employer that you're going to be

367
00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:58.122
that you moved up the line.

368
00:19:58.383 --> 00:20:02.489
And then when they asked for a reference, they said, Stephen was incredibly valuable.

369
00:20:02.529 --> 00:20:04.752
We're really sorry that he's leaving.

370
00:20:04.772 --> 00:20:05.674
We tried to keep him.

371
00:20:07.065 --> 00:20:07.826
That's what you need.

372
00:20:07.846 --> 00:20:09.366
And that can happen in two, three years.

373
00:20:09.406 --> 00:20:11.568
It's just most people don't want to think like that.

374
00:20:12.008 --> 00:20:14.850
You know, you get in your head and you get inside yourself.

375
00:20:14.870 --> 00:20:17.711
It's just like, oh, this is miserable, yada, yada, yada.

376
00:20:18.092 --> 00:20:27.157
And it's funny looking backwards on journeys like yours where it's often jobs that most people wouldn't think are glamorous that end up being the most sort of important or formative to your skill stack.

377
00:20:27.257 --> 00:20:27.417
Yeah.

378
00:20:27.417 --> 00:20:28.918
You were talking about door-to-door salespeople.

379
00:20:28.938 --> 00:20:29.098
Yeah.

380
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:31.401
You mentioned what's the Dairy Queens there, or like McDonald's.

381
00:20:31.841 --> 00:20:38.447
I think I remember that Jeff Bezos worked at McDonald's, and this is really where he learned about this sort of like customer obsession, customer service.

382
00:20:38.467 --> 00:20:38.647
Yes.

383
00:20:39.107 --> 00:20:40.549
You start to understand.

384
00:20:41.189 --> 00:20:42.571
Yeah, boy, Molly's Pub.

385
00:20:44.692 --> 00:20:49.094
But, yeah, you learn how to deal with people, how to deal with customers.

386
00:20:49.494 --> 00:20:50.934
That can happen in any job.

387
00:20:51.114 --> 00:20:52.915
It's just, I read this book in high school.

388
00:20:53.075 --> 00:20:54.676
It was called Why Men Rebel.

389
00:20:55.296 --> 00:20:58.618
And it said most people have aspirations that are up here.

390
00:20:59.258 --> 00:21:03.100
And when their real lives they feel like are down here, here, they're not.

391
00:21:04.600 --> 00:21:10.424
A lot of people won't just accept it, okay, because no one wants to think I'm not going to do or not to accomplish anything.

392
00:21:10.844 --> 00:21:18.388
So that's when they start fighting and rebelling and joining groups that are counter to what's happening in society.

393
00:21:18.788 --> 00:21:26.073
And I think understanding that in yourself, you have to be at least self-aware a little bit to understand that,

394
00:21:26.873 --> 00:21:30.457
It's okay to be frustrated, but you can't let it overtake your life.

395
00:21:30.837 --> 00:21:36.923
You've got to be able to put yourself in a position to at least feel better about yourself, even if it's not perfect.

396
00:21:37.143 --> 00:21:37.784
Did you rebel?

397
00:21:39.286 --> 00:21:40.407
Oh, my whole life.

398
00:21:40.447 --> 00:21:42.269
Yeah, I was always counterculture.

399
00:21:44.103 --> 00:21:49.664
I remember being in high school and I was four inches shorter, 25 pounds heavier.

400
00:21:49.684 --> 00:21:52.745
You can't tell here, but these two teeth are caps.

401
00:21:53.425 --> 00:21:56.685
And because my parents didn't have any money, I ran into a bicycle.

402
00:21:56.785 --> 00:22:02.586
It broke my teeth and I got caps that were aluminum, steel.

403
00:22:02.746 --> 00:22:03.247
That's what they were.

404
00:22:03.267 --> 00:22:03.887
They were steel.

405
00:22:04.087 --> 00:22:05.507
And I'm 16 years old.

406
00:22:05.567 --> 00:22:06.307
Wow.

407
00:22:06.327 --> 00:22:09.348
And people were like, my friends would be like, ah, the reflection.

408
00:22:10.048 --> 00:22:10.968
But you just...

409
00:22:12.734 --> 00:22:14.016
You just have to find your path.

410
00:22:14.076 --> 00:22:15.197
You can't get down on yourself.

411
00:22:16.178 --> 00:22:23.547
One of the things that a lot of people who feel stuck are probably thinking about is they're probably trying to weight mentally the amount of sacrifice it's going to take.

412
00:22:23.947 --> 00:22:30.555
And when I've heard you talk about hard work and the sacrifices that you had to take to build yourself from this sort of 22-year-old who...

413
00:22:31.976 --> 00:22:37.659
is in Pittsburgh, I believe at the time, to starting your first business, which ended up being acquired, Micro Solutions.

414
00:22:38.100 --> 00:22:39.360
What does the sacrifice look like?

415
00:22:39.380 --> 00:22:48.505
If I was a fly on the wall, when you were, presumably you had a job at that time, and then you started building the business, what would I have seen in terms of your, how did your life look?

416
00:22:49.086 --> 00:22:50.687
So when I got to Dallas,

417
00:22:51.447 --> 00:22:53.169
Moved in with, like I said, five roommates.

418
00:22:53.409 --> 00:22:54.170
Didn't have a bed.

419
00:22:54.470 --> 00:22:55.491
I just slept on the floor.

420
00:22:55.952 --> 00:22:58.655
I mean, that's an example of sacrifice, living in a shithole.

421
00:22:59.055 --> 00:23:04.301
Got a job working at night as a bartender, but then almost immediately got a job working at a software store.

422
00:23:04.801 --> 00:23:09.667
And that was going to be, for me, my first step into a real job, right, where I could have a future.

423
00:23:10.027 --> 00:23:11.328
But I got fired nine months later.

424
00:23:12.009 --> 00:23:12.209
Cool.

425
00:23:12.229 --> 00:23:12.490
Yeah.

426
00:23:13.050 --> 00:23:18.952
I wanted to move out of the shithole I lived in, and I was going to be looking at a $1,500 commission, which would have done it for me.

427
00:23:18.972 --> 00:23:22.593
So I called my boss, and I'm like, I need to go pick up this check.

428
00:23:22.654 --> 00:23:23.334
You'll make money.

429
00:23:23.394 --> 00:23:24.014
I'll make money.

430
00:23:24.314 --> 00:23:27.095
And I have somebody to cover opening up the retail store that I worked in.

431
00:23:27.735 --> 00:23:29.296
And he was like, no, I need you in the store.

432
00:23:30.436 --> 00:23:36.639
And I made the executive decision to go pick up the check, thinking when I brought it in, everything would be well.

433
00:23:36.679 --> 00:23:37.619
He fired me on the spot.

434
00:23:38.782 --> 00:23:42.403
fired me, and I'm like, okay, you know, I suck as an employee.

435
00:23:43.203 --> 00:23:44.223
This is not what I want.

436
00:23:44.243 --> 00:23:45.503
I'm going to start my own company.

437
00:23:45.603 --> 00:23:50.724
And I don't know if I'd call it sacrifice, but I'd call it deferring immediate gratification.

438
00:23:51.485 --> 00:23:57.866
You know, I knew that it was going to take time for me to get any level of success to move out of that apartment.

439
00:23:58.386 --> 00:24:01.967
I was going to have to sell hard, learn stuff I didn't understand.

440
00:24:02.247 --> 00:24:05.747
This was the early days of the PC revolution when PCs were starting to happen.

441
00:24:06.208 --> 00:24:08.068
I don't know this shit, but either does anybody else.

442
00:24:08.848 --> 00:24:17.550
In my mind, when it came to software, there was only going to be one person who understood any given software better than me, and that would be the person who wrote it.

443
00:24:18.391 --> 00:24:21.992
And that if I busted my ass, I was tied for second, right?

444
00:24:22.012 --> 00:24:26.773
When that's new program like Lotus 1-2-3, if you remember that one kid, no, shut up.

445
00:24:28.133 --> 00:24:30.714
It was the second spreadsheet that was a big spreadsheet.

446
00:24:31.075 --> 00:24:39.038
And so anyways, my idea was I was going to put in the time to learn that software, however many software packages that is, more than everybody.

447
00:24:39.438 --> 00:24:47.801
And I literally would stay in that retail store overnight or I'd take the computer back to the shithole apartment and just sit there and teach myself and teach myself.

448
00:24:48.222 --> 00:24:53.444
Read the manuals over and over because if I can get ahead of everybody else to be in second by myself...

449
00:24:54.004 --> 00:24:59.409
I would have a huge edge over everybody else in my, you know, for micro solutions.

450
00:24:59.789 --> 00:25:00.710
It's the same with AI.

451
00:25:01.271 --> 00:25:04.834
New AI comes out, new model comes out, new software comes out.

452
00:25:05.394 --> 00:25:07.696
There's the creator and everybody else is tied for second.

453
00:25:08.137 --> 00:25:10.459
And I'm going to kick their ass by learning it faster, better.

454
00:25:11.267 --> 00:25:14.028
And AI is obviously like the term of the moment in business.

455
00:25:14.668 --> 00:25:16.388
How significant do you think this is?

456
00:25:17.188 --> 00:25:18.909
I mean, I've been in the tech business a long time.

457
00:25:19.349 --> 00:25:22.509
This dwarfs everything else in aggregate.

458
00:25:22.689 --> 00:25:23.930
Yeah, this is so much bigger.

459
00:25:24.170 --> 00:25:27.130
With AI, you can just say, hey, I need to learn more about Stephen Bartlett.

460
00:25:27.150 --> 00:25:28.451
Tell me everything there is to know.

461
00:25:28.891 --> 00:25:30.831
It's able to make me a lot more productive.

462
00:25:31.271 --> 00:25:33.172
And I think it can make anybody more productive.

463
00:25:33.212 --> 00:25:36.632
And I think that's the beauty of artificial intelligence.

464
00:25:36.732 --> 00:25:39.433
And from an educational perspective of done right,

465
00:25:40.153 --> 00:25:41.934
It's a democratizer of information.

466
00:25:42.294 --> 00:25:46.976
You have access to every library, every book, every speech everywhere.

467
00:25:47.456 --> 00:25:50.757
And so if you're interested, there's nothing you can't learn.

468
00:25:51.478 --> 00:25:55.259
Everywhere I go around the world, people are asking me whether this technology is the real deal.

469
00:25:55.619 --> 00:26:00.261
And business owners and entrepreneurs are asking how they should be responding in a moment like this.

470
00:26:00.722 --> 00:26:05.363
Because in my life, I'm 34 years old now, there's almost no precedence of such a disruptive technology.

471
00:26:05.844 --> 00:26:08.645
It can be quite threatening to many people because it...

472
00:26:09.225 --> 00:26:13.347
there's this sort of process of, they call it creative destruction, where it like rips down the old way of doing things.

473
00:26:13.807 --> 00:26:17.789
And in that, it could be ripping down your identity, your degree, your job.

474
00:26:18.449 --> 00:26:29.415
And so there was a psychologist called Leon Festinger that coined a term called cognitive dissonance, which even hearing the term helped me understand myself and my feelings, which is the discomfort you feel when something sort of threatens or conflicts with what you know.

475
00:26:29.955 --> 00:26:31.756
The whole world is experiencing this right now.

476
00:26:32.496 --> 00:26:33.437
All at once globally.

477
00:26:33.457 --> 00:26:33.517
And

478
00:26:34.197 --> 00:26:43.213
And what people are doing, some people are doing, is they, you know, an attempt to alleviate the dissonance, bury their heads in the sand, deny it, it won't come for me, I'll be fine.

479
00:26:43.434 --> 00:26:43.634
Right.

480
00:26:43.654 --> 00:26:45.016
Yeah, that's not going to happen.

481
00:26:45.575 --> 00:26:46.916
Yeah, not going to happen.

482
00:26:46.976 --> 00:26:49.617
Like for me with AI, I see it as an opportunity.

483
00:26:49.637 --> 00:26:51.058
Wherever there's change, there's opportunity.

484
00:26:51.638 --> 00:26:53.139
You know, something's changing.

485
00:26:53.499 --> 00:26:59.042
And to your point, the cognitive dissonance, people are avoiding it and not dealing with it at all.

486
00:26:59.522 --> 00:27:02.644
And then there's others who are picking up on it and saying, let's go.

487
00:27:03.044 --> 00:27:03.424
Let's go.

488
00:27:03.444 --> 00:27:07.707
And that's always been my approach because, you know, most people aren't going to do the work.

489
00:27:08.007 --> 00:27:08.207
Yeah.

490
00:27:09.231 --> 00:27:12.632
You know, there was an old basketball coach, Bobby Knight, from Indiana University.

491
00:27:13.272 --> 00:27:16.753
And when I was in college, he was on 60 Minutes, and he had this one line.

492
00:27:17.274 --> 00:27:18.174
And my jaw just dropped.

493
00:27:18.194 --> 00:27:19.954
I'm like, oh, shit, that's it.

494
00:27:20.115 --> 00:27:20.835
That's my line.

495
00:27:21.175 --> 00:27:22.855
He goes, everybody's got the will to win.

496
00:27:23.476 --> 00:27:26.877
But it's only those with the will to prepare that actually do win.

497
00:27:27.957 --> 00:27:29.758
And I'm like, bingo.

498
00:27:29.778 --> 00:27:30.458
That's all I needed.

499
00:27:30.478 --> 00:27:34.479
You know, you get one little line as a kid in your head, and I'm just like, let's go.

500
00:27:34.819 --> 00:27:36.480
Problem is you never see people prepare.

501
00:27:37.533 --> 00:27:38.354
You may not see it, right?

502
00:27:38.374 --> 00:27:38.995
Yeah, you never see it.

503
00:27:39.015 --> 00:27:40.616
So there's no role model preparation, right?

504
00:27:40.656 --> 00:27:44.961
No one gets to see you going and taking the software from the store and taking it home to the shop apartment because there was no cameras.

505
00:27:44.981 --> 00:27:46.182
There was no interest at that point.

506
00:27:46.723 --> 00:27:53.870
So we almost don't appreciate that that's part of the win, but they probably saw you on the double-decker bus with the trophy with the Mavs.

507
00:27:53.951 --> 00:27:54.391
Yeah, right.

508
00:27:54.411 --> 00:27:57.594
So, you know, this is the illusion of success, I guess, in this context.

509
00:27:58.225 --> 00:27:59.606
That's why we have conversations like this.

510
00:27:59.646 --> 00:27:59.886
Yeah.

511
00:28:00.106 --> 00:28:00.906
Yeah, to convey that.

512
00:28:01.187 --> 00:28:02.447
That's why you've been so successful.

513
00:28:02.767 --> 00:28:10.872
Well, no, but this is why I love having these conversations because it's almost counter-narrative to Instagram to hear that you've spent years- Oh, it's even worse, right?

514
00:28:10.992 --> 00:28:11.572
It's even worse.

515
00:28:11.632 --> 00:28:14.173
Okay, so my 16-year-old son, 17-year-old just turned, right?

516
00:28:14.754 --> 00:28:19.576
Drove me nuts because you know how the algorithms work, right?

517
00:28:19.876 --> 00:28:21.737
Whatever you see, you get more of.

518
00:28:21.817 --> 00:28:25.219
And each of us have our own unique algorithm on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, right?

519
00:28:25.539 --> 00:28:26.700
Nobody sees the same stuff.

520
00:28:27.280 --> 00:28:33.285
And obviously he was interested in business because he would come up to me and show me these get rich quick schemes.

521
00:28:33.705 --> 00:28:35.186
You know, you're going to drop ship.

522
00:28:35.246 --> 00:28:37.368
You're going to do, you know, shoe drops.

523
00:28:37.668 --> 00:28:42.652
Even there was one where they had a blaster, you know, water blaster so you can clean sidewalks.

524
00:28:42.712 --> 00:28:45.334
And I'm like, no, right?

525
00:28:45.415 --> 00:28:48.497
If those were good businesses, they wouldn't be telling you about them.

526
00:28:48.517 --> 00:28:51.860
They would just be doing them or make all this money in the stock market.

527
00:28:52.100 --> 00:28:54.602
Nobody who has an edge in the stock market is selling it.

528
00:28:55.022 --> 00:28:55.803
They're using it.

529
00:28:56.344 --> 00:28:58.492
And the point of all that is,

530
00:28:59.377 --> 00:29:05.059
People, particularly now in this social media world where you just get more of what you want, they get misled.

531
00:29:05.679 --> 00:29:14.261
Section 230, the protections on the Internet and the fact that that protects algorithms, I think, really is a big part of holding kids back these days.

532
00:29:14.861 --> 00:29:21.663
Because that's why you talk about not seeing people do the preparatory work, you know, not seeing what happens behind the scenes.

533
00:29:22.203 --> 00:29:27.205
Because that doesn't get more views or more engagement on Instagram or TikTok.

534
00:29:27.525 --> 00:29:27.665
Mm-hmm.

535
00:29:27.945 --> 00:29:30.666
No one's going to, okay, Mark's looking at this, reading a manual.

536
00:29:32.106 --> 00:29:32.947
No, right?

537
00:29:33.247 --> 00:29:35.287
And it's tougher for society today.

538
00:29:35.688 --> 00:29:38.568
You know, we talk about socialism or capitalism.

539
00:29:39.469 --> 00:29:41.189
No one knows what it actually means.

540
00:29:41.309 --> 00:29:48.352
They just, whatever is presented to them in, you know, a 10-second bite and you see it enough, you presume it must be true.

541
00:29:48.672 --> 00:29:55.274
That's why I think I asked about long-termism is because I'm trying to figure out what the sort of, you know, you said earlier, you said, you know, most people won't do it.

542
00:29:55.294 --> 00:29:55.394
Yeah.

543
00:29:56.194 --> 00:30:03.018
And right now with algorithms and a certain sort of online narrative, I think there becomes like a winning opportunity to do the opposite.

544
00:30:03.058 --> 00:30:04.559
So get rich quick schemes.

545
00:30:04.579 --> 00:30:13.023
The opposite of that is like taking a long-term approach, doing the preparation, mastering a skill, and setting yourself a tenure time horizon as opposed to like, I'm going to be rich next year.

546
00:30:13.043 --> 00:30:14.904
Even Charlie Munger used to say it all the time, right?

547
00:30:15.225 --> 00:30:17.066
There's no delayed gratification anymore.

548
00:30:17.606 --> 00:30:17.866
Never.

549
00:30:18.486 --> 00:30:23.049
And if you don't realize you have to do the work first, you're not going to get the gratification.

550
00:30:23.069 --> 00:30:23.189
Right.

551
00:30:23.269 --> 00:30:26.711
And Charlie and Warren are obsessed with compounding.

552
00:30:27.111 --> 00:30:27.691
Oh, yeah, for sure.

553
00:30:27.711 --> 00:30:29.332
And they were the kings of it.

554
00:30:29.352 --> 00:30:30.133
Yeah, for sure.

555
00:30:30.493 --> 00:30:38.017
That's one of the things I always found fascinating about them when I started reading about why they were such great investors is that I read that there'd be like a couple of years where they wouldn't invest any money at all.

556
00:30:38.037 --> 00:30:38.457
No, no.

557
00:30:38.997 --> 00:30:39.738
What the fuck?

558
00:30:40.399 --> 00:30:42.041
No, and I've tried to do the same thing.

559
00:30:42.061 --> 00:30:46.307
And again, just trying to not, don't just jump into the market, jump in the market.

560
00:30:46.748 --> 00:30:48.550
There's always going to be a bear market.

561
00:30:48.630 --> 00:30:49.752
And that's where the money was made.

562
00:30:49.772 --> 00:30:53.657
During COVID, you know, that's, I just started buying up everything when it hit.

563
00:30:53.697 --> 00:30:53.957
And I, I,

564
00:30:54.558 --> 00:30:55.078
crushed it.

565
00:30:55.498 --> 00:30:58.219
You know, you can say that's wrong in some respects, right?

566
00:30:58.259 --> 00:31:05.020
But now it's just like you see these stocks and everything just, you know, AI related stuff just going to the moon and all this debt.

567
00:31:05.380 --> 00:31:06.661
I'm like, just be patient.

568
00:31:06.681 --> 00:31:12.142
You can invest a little bit for the fun of it, but be patient, have some cash because at some point it's going to turn.

569
00:31:12.462 --> 00:31:16.503
And when that happens, that's when the real magic happens and the real money is made.

570
00:31:17.083 --> 00:31:18.225
The delayed gratification.

571
00:31:18.505 --> 00:31:19.747
You do think we're in a bubble, don't you?

572
00:31:19.767 --> 00:31:20.488
I heard you talk about this.

573
00:31:20.568 --> 00:31:26.456
I think we're in a bubble, but not the same as the internet bubble back in 2000, 2001.

574
00:31:26.977 --> 00:31:31.323
I think what's different now is everything's a meme stock.

575
00:31:32.524 --> 00:31:34.945
Bitcoin is a meme stock, right?

576
00:31:35.245 --> 00:31:39.346
Pick Micron, you know, pick Google, Apple, they're meme stocks.

577
00:31:39.766 --> 00:31:45.768
And the reason I say that is by watching how stocks move with just a little bit of news.

578
00:31:46.189 --> 00:31:52.571
So a company might miss earnings by a penny or only beat by a penny, and their stock will be down 18%.

579
00:31:54.517 --> 00:31:57.158
The intrinsic value of that company hasn't changed 18%.

580
00:31:57.498 --> 00:32:08.662
It's just that buyers and sellers move in and move out very quickly based off of anticipated information as opposed to the net present value of the future cash flows and all that.

581
00:32:09.022 --> 00:32:10.423
We're trading them like baseball cards.

582
00:32:11.223 --> 00:32:12.944
You know, there's no intrinsic value to this.

583
00:32:13.004 --> 00:32:14.064
It's just perceived value.

584
00:32:14.344 --> 00:32:16.045
And what do you think somebody else will pay for it?

585
00:32:16.465 --> 00:32:20.327
And I think we're in a bubble for that very reason.

586
00:32:20.967 --> 00:32:22.627
What causes it to burst?

587
00:32:22.848 --> 00:32:23.568
I have no idea.

588
00:32:24.168 --> 00:32:27.390
Because we said, you know, this technology, AI is without precedents.

589
00:32:28.271 --> 00:32:33.454
You know, it is quite tempting for someone like me to put, you know, put a couple of dollars into the NVIDIA.

590
00:32:33.794 --> 00:32:34.514
Yeah, for sure.

591
00:32:34.675 --> 00:32:36.916
Because you think maybe this is the last technology.

592
00:32:36.936 --> 00:32:42.419
Right, because even, you know, I don't think it'll be the last technology because it'll always, something will always happen.

593
00:32:42.439 --> 00:32:45.221
There'll always be somebody smarter than the AI, I believe.

594
00:32:45.701 --> 00:32:47.743
But look at Dell and Amazon.

595
00:32:48.423 --> 00:32:54.332
They were companies whose stocks went from way up high, got crushed when the internet bubble burst.

596
00:32:54.752 --> 00:32:56.655
Amazon was losing money hand over foot.

597
00:32:57.095 --> 00:33:00.560
I mean, people used to give them a hard time because they were losing so much money.

598
00:33:01.567 --> 00:33:02.788
Now they're worth trillions of dollars.

599
00:33:02.808 --> 00:33:05.749
And if you were just stuck it out with them, so there will be winners.

600
00:33:06.449 --> 00:33:07.770
I just don't know which company.

601
00:33:07.790 --> 00:33:08.730
Is it Anthropic?

602
00:33:08.810 --> 00:33:10.010
Is it OpenAI?

603
00:33:10.251 --> 00:33:10.571
I don't know.

604
00:33:10.911 --> 00:33:12.812
You think there'll always be someone smarter than the AI?

605
00:33:12.912 --> 00:33:13.532
Yeah, for sure.

606
00:33:14.132 --> 00:33:14.732
What do you mean by that?

607
00:33:14.752 --> 00:33:15.293
I've never heard that.

608
00:33:15.573 --> 00:33:23.276
Take a model from Anthropic, AI model for Anthropic, or Google Gemini, or ChatGPT, OpenAI, right?

609
00:33:23.636 --> 00:33:24.356
It gets released.

610
00:33:24.716 --> 00:33:25.617
It's immediately out of date.

611
00:33:26.725 --> 00:33:27.125
Immediately.

612
00:33:27.585 --> 00:33:33.767
The brilliance of this conversation is not incorporated in any model anywhere, right?

613
00:33:33.887 --> 00:33:34.827
AI is not smart.

614
00:33:35.387 --> 00:33:41.209
It just knows how to use statistics, basically, to predict the next word.

615
00:33:41.309 --> 00:33:42.369
It's predictive.

616
00:33:42.429 --> 00:33:43.509
It's not deterministic.

617
00:33:44.110 --> 00:33:45.190
Meaning if you asked...

618
00:33:45.890 --> 00:33:49.112
four different AIs, the same question, you're going to get four different answers.

619
00:33:49.652 --> 00:33:58.076
If you modify a question to the same AI, just marginally that shouldn't change the meeting, it'll give you a different answer every time.

620
00:33:58.856 --> 00:34:00.397
That doesn't work in the real world.

621
00:34:01.017 --> 00:34:03.139
AI doesn't know the consequences of its actions.

622
00:34:03.539 --> 00:34:05.280
AI doesn't have inherent ethics.

623
00:34:05.840 --> 00:34:10.884
AI, you know, can't take video and consume it or absorb it, at least not yet.

624
00:34:11.304 --> 00:34:20.930
If I'm standing at a four-way intersection and there's cars going back and forth and I have video in my phone and, you know, the best models ever and I have a seeing eye dog right here.

625
00:34:20.950 --> 00:34:21.491
Mm-hmm.

626
00:34:21.831 --> 00:34:25.955
I'm letting the CNI dog take me across the street before I let the AI take me across the street.

627
00:34:26.435 --> 00:34:27.857
It's always going to be behind.

628
00:34:27.877 --> 00:34:29.558
There's always going to be a latency.

629
00:34:29.979 --> 00:34:35.904
And so many things can change in a blink of the eye in this world that there's always going to be a human who says, uh,

630
00:34:37.005 --> 00:34:37.505
You know what?

631
00:34:37.725 --> 00:34:52.529
I can do this better because while all these other companies are competing with their models to try to, you know, hit these benchmarks and outperform in these benchmarks or do recursive self-improvement so it just keeps on training itself more and more, it doesn't have access.

632
00:34:53.130 --> 00:35:01.212
A two-year-old sitting on a high chair with a sippy cup knows that if it pushes the sippy cup off the high chair...

633
00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:05.081
Mom's going to come running and it knows it's going to crack up, right?

634
00:35:05.541 --> 00:35:07.542
AI is not going to figure that out ever.

635
00:35:08.362 --> 00:35:16.847
Do you know, if you think of it as like an exponential technology, this is what I always try and... Because it's tempting to think of it as a sort of a static state.

636
00:35:16.967 --> 00:35:19.809
I'm thinking of like a graph here, like where it kind of goes like this.

637
00:35:20.529 --> 00:35:25.652
But these technologies, from even what I've observed with every new release, seem to be almost like this.

638
00:35:25.672 --> 00:35:25.912
Yeah.

639
00:35:26.850 --> 00:35:27.490
So it's quite hard.

640
00:35:27.530 --> 00:35:29.091
Like, even think about full self-driving.

641
00:35:29.332 --> 00:35:29.472
Yeah.

642
00:35:29.492 --> 00:35:30.632
Like, my Tesla drives itself.

643
00:35:30.833 --> 00:35:34.555
And apparently, the crash rate is significantly lower than if a human was driving.

644
00:35:34.755 --> 00:35:35.095
Of course.

645
00:35:35.295 --> 00:35:41.679
And if I imagine that as an exponential, at some point, this shit's going to be pretty...

646
00:35:42.180 --> 00:35:42.580
Except.

647
00:35:42.940 --> 00:35:43.100
Yeah.

648
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:43.661
Except.

649
00:35:44.741 --> 00:35:47.383
They're just like you see the protests about data centers.

650
00:35:47.563 --> 00:35:47.743
Yeah.

651
00:35:48.724 --> 00:35:53.027
When we talk about why men rebel, a book I haven't thought about since high school, right?

652
00:35:54.147 --> 00:35:54.888
People are going to rebel.

653
00:35:54.908 --> 00:35:55.008
Yeah.

654
00:35:56.389 --> 00:36:02.975
People are going to create their own communities where there is, if it's that dominant, there'll be people say, I don't want that in my life.

655
00:36:03.395 --> 00:36:07.619
There'll be communes and kibbutzes where there's no technology.

656
00:36:07.759 --> 00:36:19.029
There's something called adversarial actions for AI where like with full self-driving, there's certain things that when it sees it, it reacts in the wrong way.

657
00:36:19.910 --> 00:36:30.634
And once you know how to do that and you can cause AI to do things that it doesn't want to do or you don't expect it to do, then you're going to get people who do that all the time.

658
00:36:31.254 --> 00:36:37.936
And you're also seeing it like when I go and talk to hospitals and researchers for cost plus drugs, right?

659
00:36:38.517 --> 00:36:47.500
What I tell them is you're crazy if you publish everything or if you try to patent everything because it's immediately available to every model and you lose control of your intellectual property.

660
00:36:48.200 --> 00:36:52.542
And you're starting to see more and more and more people instead of patenting it, it's a trade secret.

661
00:36:52.922 --> 00:36:56.624
Instead of publishing it, I'll put it in my model or I'll sell it to you.

662
00:36:57.104 --> 00:37:07.769
And so you get this bifurcation with each model where Gemini is not trained on the same data as ChatGPT, as Claude, as Grok, etc.

663
00:37:08.269 --> 00:37:10.150
And if they're all giving you different answers—

664
00:37:11.685 --> 00:37:13.606
kind of defeats the purpose in a lot of respects.

665
00:37:13.966 --> 00:37:17.288
And if they can't deal with live video or they always have latency.

666
00:37:17.788 --> 00:37:21.731
And look, when I say this, I'm not saying AI is useless.

667
00:37:21.811 --> 00:37:22.831
No, exact opposite.

668
00:37:22.871 --> 00:37:23.972
AI is incredible.

669
00:37:24.552 --> 00:37:27.354
But like having four of the smartest people next to you,

670
00:37:28.405 --> 00:37:30.086
They're not all going to give you the same answer.

671
00:37:30.327 --> 00:37:44.598
And you have to have the skill set to be able to ask the right question and ask the right question of multiple sources and be able to take the output from each of them, the responses from each of them, and come to a conclusion that you think is in your best interest or whatever interest that is.

672
00:37:46.259 --> 00:37:51.744
You'd think the former president of Nespresso would be a pretty hard person to convert to a new coffee company.

673
00:37:52.224 --> 00:37:56.848
But just one sip of Commitir Coffee made him invest.

674
00:38:00.437 --> 00:38:01.957
But let me tell you the reason why I became an investor.

675
00:38:02.037 --> 00:38:05.278
So I had a big box of this arrive on my desk in the London office.

676
00:38:05.598 --> 00:38:15.180
And then I'd say within about an hour and a half, the Slack channel that we have starts blowing up with people asking, what the hell is that thing that's been left in the kitchen?

677
00:38:15.580 --> 00:38:16.860
It is unbelievable.

678
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:22.581
So instead of trying to make it yourself at home and balance the flavors, they flash freeze at the perfect moment.

679
00:38:22.601 --> 00:38:28.162
So all you have to do is pop it out of here into a cup, pour hot water on it, and it tastes like nothing you've tasted before.

680
00:38:28.402 --> 00:38:30.964
You can also make delicious iced coffee drinks as well.

681
00:38:31.284 --> 00:38:32.044
Just pour it in.

682
00:38:33.485 --> 00:38:37.027
No machine, no brewing with plastic and all that nasty stuff.

683
00:38:37.508 --> 00:38:43.331
And you can get $30 off your first order at cometeer.com slash Stephen today.

684
00:38:43.511 --> 00:38:46.073
That's cometeer.com slash Stephen.

685
00:38:47.434 --> 00:38:50.377
There's something your business depends on that most of us never even think about.

686
00:38:50.537 --> 00:38:55.202
One thing you realize when you're building your business is just how dependent you become on being connected.

687
00:38:55.382 --> 00:39:02.149
Your team is on video calls, files are in the cloud, payments, customer conversations, teams collaborating across the globe.

688
00:39:02.510 --> 00:39:07.395
So much of the business is happening online and you don't really think about your internet when it's working.

689
00:39:07.755 --> 00:39:09.597
You notice it when it stops working.

690
00:39:09.998 --> 00:39:26.017
T-Mobile is now a sponsor of this show, provided that I've used for the longest time, and they have developed something called Super Broadband, the only nationwide broadband solution to integrate 5G and Starlink, which, by the way, is a lifesaver, for virtually unbreakable connectivity.

691
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692
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693
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694
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695
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696
00:39:54.480 --> 00:40:00.685
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697
00:40:01.988 --> 00:40:09.012
What do you make of all these AICOs saying that it's going to transform how we work and there's not really going to be any jobs left?

698
00:40:09.072 --> 00:40:13.514
Well, it will transform how we work, but I think there'll be creative destruction.

699
00:40:13.674 --> 00:40:19.677
Like, you know, I went to school at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana, and right by Bloomington is Terre Haute, Indiana.

700
00:40:19.717 --> 00:40:27.181
Terre Haute, Indiana used to be the location for RCA Records, which then became CDs, right?

701
00:40:27.241 --> 00:40:28.662
And then they made DVDs.

702
00:40:29.142 --> 00:40:30.583
You probably don't even remember that shit, right?

703
00:40:30.823 --> 00:40:32.504
I remember CDs and DVDs.

704
00:40:32.564 --> 00:40:32.824
Okay.

705
00:40:32.844 --> 00:40:33.344
But cassettes.

706
00:40:33.804 --> 00:40:34.024
Gone.

707
00:40:34.044 --> 00:40:34.285
Yeah.

708
00:40:34.625 --> 00:40:35.785
Gone, right?

709
00:40:36.045 --> 00:40:39.047
But it's not like there aren't people making money on music.

710
00:40:39.567 --> 00:40:41.928
And so there will be creative destruction.

711
00:40:41.968 --> 00:40:46.930
There will be new things that pop up that leverage this new technology that create different kinds of jobs.

712
00:40:47.330 --> 00:40:49.091
Is the path going to be painful for people?

713
00:40:49.131 --> 00:40:49.311
Yeah.

714
00:40:49.331 --> 00:40:50.892
Just like the people in Terre Haute, Indiana.

715
00:40:51.252 --> 00:40:52.052
It's going to be painful.

716
00:40:52.092 --> 00:40:58.375
Because this technology feels so different because when you start to think about how much of our lives run...

717
00:40:59.035 --> 00:41:01.656
both on the internet, but just based on intelligence.

718
00:41:02.096 --> 00:41:06.098
Like driving is not something I considered would be impacted by AI, for example.

719
00:41:06.418 --> 00:41:13.762
And then now I'm experiencing, you know, I heard you talking about your use of AI agents, but I've got, I don't know, 25 AI agents on my phone now going through all of my stuff.

720
00:41:13.822 --> 00:41:14.262
It's great, right?

721
00:41:14.282 --> 00:41:14.802
It's amazing.

722
00:41:14.962 --> 00:41:15.642
It's amazing.

723
00:41:15.722 --> 00:41:17.123
But you go, fuck, oh my God.

724
00:41:18.003 --> 00:41:19.004
But it's not smart.

725
00:41:19.953 --> 00:41:22.715
I hadn't read a nonfiction book in 25 years.

726
00:41:23.436 --> 00:41:32.823
And the only reason I had the time to do it was I had these agents, all the shit that I had on my to-do list that I would have to go search for this, read that, do this,

727
00:41:33.767 --> 00:41:34.047
Boom.

728
00:41:34.287 --> 00:41:37.050
My agents, just like I'm sure you use it for the same thing, right?

729
00:41:37.790 --> 00:41:44.976
All the tedious bullshit work that you didn't want to do or always couldn't get to or thought you had to hire somebody for.

730
00:41:45.536 --> 00:41:47.298
Now you have an agent that does it.

731
00:41:47.618 --> 00:41:52.462
And your biggest decision to use GrokBot, to use Dot, to use Cowork.

732
00:41:53.042 --> 00:41:56.485
And then you try them all and you see they all give you a different answer.

733
00:41:56.905 --> 00:41:58.006
And then you have to use your brain again.

734
00:41:58.026 --> 00:41:58.186
Right.

735
00:42:00.484 --> 00:42:04.729
But you said that you would have otherwise hired people to do some of those things, right?

736
00:42:05.030 --> 00:42:05.911
Yes, that's true.

737
00:42:06.011 --> 00:42:09.375
But now I can get more done, just like you can get more done.

738
00:42:09.716 --> 00:42:16.024
And when you get more done using your agents, you have better opportunities to use what you know to create other things.

739
00:42:16.524 --> 00:42:18.287
So I might have brought in an intern.

740
00:42:18.667 --> 00:42:24.629
and paid them $15 an hour or $20 an hour, whatever it was, now maybe it creates a new business idea.

741
00:42:25.129 --> 00:42:28.891
And with that new business idea, I need to hire people to do that.

742
00:42:29.431 --> 00:42:31.732
So I'll give you a perfect example of what I use agents for.

743
00:42:32.052 --> 00:42:36.073
For costplusdrugs.com, I'm trying to break the healthcare industry.

744
00:42:36.654 --> 00:42:39.895
And there's these big conglomerates who I think are the real problem.

745
00:42:40.295 --> 00:42:42.796
And now I have an agent, every time they get sued,

746
00:42:43.744 --> 00:42:44.885
It comes to me and tells me.

747
00:42:45.285 --> 00:42:49.648
Every time there's a bid that they're bidding on, right, it comes and the agents tell me.

748
00:42:50.048 --> 00:42:56.893
And I can use the agent to create an email to send to the Open Records Act to get me copies of all those contracts.

749
00:42:56.973 --> 00:43:00.556
I could never have imagined doing before unless I hired somebody.

750
00:43:00.596 --> 00:43:05.179
That meant I had to take the time to hire him and train them and manage them so it never got done.

751
00:43:06.079 --> 00:43:06.940
Now it gets done.

752
00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:13.704
And now I have other types of people that I hired to do it, do different things that are at a completely different level.

753
00:43:14.185 --> 00:43:16.746
And it takes less of my time to do all of that.

754
00:43:17.347 --> 00:43:19.928
And for your son, your son's 16, 17, just turned 17.

755
00:43:20.209 --> 00:43:21.990
When he's, when he's saying, dad, you know,

756
00:43:22.750 --> 00:43:23.552
You know a lot about the future.

757
00:43:23.572 --> 00:43:25.695
You've been able to predict the future several times.

758
00:43:25.735 --> 00:43:28.019
So what should I be focused on, Dad?

759
00:43:28.299 --> 00:43:29.261
He's 17.

760
00:43:29.381 --> 00:43:30.984
My kids are 17, 20, and 23.

761
00:43:31.024 --> 00:43:35.531
The one thing they never say is, Dad, you know a lot about...

762
00:43:36.435 --> 00:43:37.296
fill in the blank.

763
00:43:38.237 --> 00:43:40.519
Never, never, ever.

764
00:43:41.099 --> 00:43:45.643
My oldest daughter, though, when she was at college, I told her she had to learn how to do agents.

765
00:43:45.703 --> 00:43:47.205
And she was like, yeah, whatever, whatever.

766
00:43:47.505 --> 00:43:49.346
And then I went and watched one of her presentations.

767
00:43:49.707 --> 00:43:51.708
And she was like, yeah, I got an agent to do this.

768
00:43:51.789 --> 00:43:52.769
I got an agent to do that.

769
00:43:52.789 --> 00:43:54.491
I was like, proud papa, right?

770
00:43:54.911 --> 00:43:57.534
But yeah, but I tell them, you have to learn this stuff.

771
00:43:57.654 --> 00:44:00.596
Because if you don't, the person who does

772
00:44:01.477 --> 00:44:03.558
is going to be so much more productive than you are.

773
00:44:04.039 --> 00:44:10.443
If you have access to a smartphone or a PC or laptop at the library that has access to Clyde, Gemini, etc.,

774
00:44:12.213 --> 00:44:13.675
There's no question you can't ask.

775
00:44:13.995 --> 00:44:14.876
Does hard work matter?

776
00:44:15.256 --> 00:44:15.997
Yes, of course.

777
00:44:16.317 --> 00:44:18.459
You got to take the time to ask the question.

778
00:44:19.040 --> 00:44:25.366
You have to take the time to consume the information it gives you and get and learn how to ask better and better questions and get better at it.

779
00:44:25.907 --> 00:44:30.351
But people always talk about mentors and having access to a network.

780
00:44:30.852 --> 00:44:31.913
I never had any of that shit.

781
00:44:32.293 --> 00:44:32.493
Right.

782
00:44:32.573 --> 00:44:35.254
I just sat and learned and read and did it by reading.

783
00:44:35.654 --> 00:44:37.375
Now I don't go grab a book.

784
00:44:37.575 --> 00:44:37.835
Right.

785
00:44:37.875 --> 00:44:43.857
I just go right to, you know, Claude or co-work and I'm like, fine, all about this and tell me what Warren Buffett thought about that.

786
00:44:44.657 --> 00:44:45.218
It's insane.

787
00:44:45.558 --> 00:44:48.939
What does the edge become in such a world where everybody has the same information?

788
00:44:49.379 --> 00:44:56.962
Because you've got to know how to take what you've read or seen and integrate it and apply it to what you're trying to accomplish.

789
00:44:56.982 --> 00:44:57.702
Right.

790
00:44:57.847 --> 00:45:02.551
Because it's cool, like, I can say, write me a business plan for this business.

791
00:45:02.931 --> 00:45:05.013
And it'll create all the agents.

792
00:45:05.053 --> 00:45:06.034
It'll create the bots.

793
00:45:06.074 --> 00:45:07.135
It'll do all that stuff.

794
00:45:07.735 --> 00:45:11.559
But I've got to be the one to say, this is right, this is wrong, this is right.

795
00:45:11.839 --> 00:45:19.125
And then I've got to be the one that goes out and sells it or teaches the agents how to sell when we get to that point so that the business could actually work.

796
00:45:19.826 --> 00:45:21.907
AI is not smart.

797
00:45:21.928 --> 00:45:21.988
AI.

798
00:45:22.688 --> 00:45:25.810
It's just grinds and grinds and grinds.

799
00:45:26.151 --> 00:45:30.254
When you hear about the risk profile, the doomers, right?

800
00:45:30.594 --> 00:45:33.896
When I talk to security people, I ask this very specific question.

801
00:45:34.216 --> 00:45:37.459
We're hearing these stories about AI breaking in here or doing that.

802
00:45:37.959 --> 00:45:39.160
Did they invent anything?

803
00:45:39.620 --> 00:45:44.284
Did they come up with a new approach for hacking into this system or for stealing this data?

804
00:45:45.285 --> 00:45:45.465
No.

805
00:45:46.319 --> 00:45:47.520
They didn't do anything new.

806
00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:51.202
What they did was get the same list that every security person has.

807
00:45:51.682 --> 00:45:58.826
And because you can create an unlimited number of agents to go through and try it in every possible combination, it's all brute force.

808
00:45:59.507 --> 00:46:04.850
Where AI has a huge advantage is in doing brute force approaches to things because what

809
00:46:05.310 --> 00:46:17.294
you know, we'd always done security by trying to catch all the problems, knowing that, you know, unless it's a DDoS attack, right, nobody has the resources to do a full brute force to have more resources than we do.

810
00:46:18.155 --> 00:46:18.955
Those days are gone.

811
00:46:18.995 --> 00:46:29.078
But what we don't talk about is using that same brute force on the defense side, that you can go out there and find all the holes in yourself and go be proactive to attack the bad guys.

812
00:46:29.379 --> 00:46:31.319
So I don't think, I'm not a doomer at all.

813
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:32.700
There'll be instances of

814
00:46:33.560 --> 00:46:41.963
shit that happens, but I'm more afraid of what people do because of their concerns and lack of understanding of AI than I am about what AI will do.

815
00:46:42.543 --> 00:46:43.543
AI is not smart.

816
00:46:43.823 --> 00:46:44.003
No.

817
00:46:45.104 --> 00:46:50.185
Even when we call it intelligent, like, remember how we talk about book smart?

818
00:46:51.086 --> 00:46:56.588
Somebody who can read a book, remember what's in it, they're book smart, get A's on tests because they memorize everything.

819
00:46:56.608 --> 00:46:57.588
That's AI.

820
00:46:57.608 --> 00:46:57.768
Yeah.

821
00:46:59.748 --> 00:47:02.529
So what is, I want to be clear on your definition of smart.

822
00:47:02.929 --> 00:47:07.190
Smart is being able to aggregate information and inputs.

823
00:47:07.210 --> 00:47:16.273
Smart is being able to know where to look for the inputs and being able to take them and then aggregate them to solve a problem.

824
00:47:17.574 --> 00:47:20.795
And also being able to identify the problem you're trying to solve.

825
00:47:21.658 --> 00:47:22.638
AI doesn't do that.

826
00:47:23.098 --> 00:47:25.419
And again, you have to be in the real time.

827
00:47:25.439 --> 00:47:26.759
We're having this conversation.

828
00:47:26.779 --> 00:47:29.500
I didn't know what questions you were going to ask, right?

829
00:47:29.540 --> 00:47:31.080
It's just whatever, right?

830
00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:34.561
AI is missing all that.

831
00:47:36.141 --> 00:47:39.962
There's no way to feed AI everything that humans have access to.

832
00:47:40.402 --> 00:47:42.063
Like we talk about replacing doctors.

833
00:47:43.107 --> 00:47:47.450
Okay, if I'm a doctor and Steven's there, this speeds it up.

834
00:47:47.510 --> 00:47:51.373
I have access to every research report, whatever it may be, article.

835
00:47:51.834 --> 00:47:54.095
And then Steven pukes all over me.

836
00:47:55.396 --> 00:47:57.038
AI can't help me with that, right?

837
00:47:57.638 --> 00:47:58.659
Steven, what's wrong?

838
00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:02.282
It's like, I can't say to the AI, what's wrong with Steven?

839
00:48:03.326 --> 00:48:09.369
I have to use my senses, look, you know, take my experience and be smart enough to ask the right question.

840
00:48:09.789 --> 00:48:14.031
Is there a probability that something could happen that changes your mind on this point?

841
00:48:16.132 --> 00:48:23.655
Whether it's the recursive self-improvement that they all talk about where it starts improving itself or some kind, what evidence would you need to see to go to, you know, I think AI is smart.

842
00:48:24.336 --> 00:48:26.717
I think where you take a minimal resource AI.

843
00:48:28.927 --> 00:48:33.288
And it can ask and solve questions with minimal resources.

844
00:48:34.188 --> 00:48:40.050
Meaning you can have a 12-year-old kid who comes from the worst part of the world be brilliant.

845
00:48:41.670 --> 00:48:47.472
No access to resource to seize and figure things out, finds places and sources of information.

846
00:48:48.740 --> 00:49:04.371
Now, when you talk about AI, more GPUs, more power, better algorithms, and whether it's recursive self-improvement or not, where it teaches itself to try to get better, I don't think we reach that point where you can do it with no resources.

847
00:49:05.432 --> 00:49:14.439
Do you think the people like Elon, who talk about how basically working is going to become a choice and how smart this technology is going to be and the humanoid robots that are

848
00:49:17.266 --> 00:49:19.027
Are those forecasts overblown?

849
00:49:19.047 --> 00:49:20.827
You know, Elon's amazing.

850
00:49:20.847 --> 00:49:22.047
He's a brilliant entrepreneur.

851
00:49:22.087 --> 00:49:22.768
Don't get me wrong.

852
00:49:22.808 --> 00:49:25.688
He's the best entrepreneur of our lifetimes for sure.

853
00:49:26.329 --> 00:49:31.350
But he's a sales guy, you know, and he has to raise a lot of money for all the things he likes to do.

854
00:49:31.390 --> 00:49:32.250
And he's good at that.

855
00:49:32.750 --> 00:49:38.152
And so I don't begrudge Elon anything, even though he gives me shit on Twitter or X and I give him shit right back.

856
00:49:38.672 --> 00:49:41.753
But I think he's got to sell what he's got to sell.

857
00:49:42.353 --> 00:49:44.734
And I think that carries the day for Elon.

858
00:49:45.494 --> 00:49:45.654
Hmm.

859
00:49:46.610 --> 00:49:47.030
Oh, yeah.

860
00:49:47.390 --> 00:49:55.495
It's funny because I sit here with so many different people from the world of AI, safety experts, and then some of the frontier labs, you know, team members or CEOs or ex-employees.

861
00:49:55.975 --> 00:49:59.477
And one of the remarkable things is I hear everything.

862
00:50:00.237 --> 00:50:02.659
Yeah, there's no one continuous thing, right?

863
00:50:02.739 --> 00:50:04.219
No two people give you the same answer.

864
00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:06.000
That tells you all you need to know, right?

865
00:50:06.040 --> 00:50:06.601
Yeah, it's fascinating.

866
00:50:06.621 --> 00:50:07.621
Because it should be obvious.

867
00:50:07.821 --> 00:50:13.945
If it was so dominant and there was a destination that everybody understood is where we would get to,

868
00:50:15.009 --> 00:50:17.533
It would be obvious to everybody and we all would see it.

869
00:50:18.214 --> 00:50:28.749
Again, you have to have more power and more GPUs than the history of power and GPUs prior to last year.

870
00:50:30.770 --> 00:50:31.990
That's not intelligence.

871
00:50:32.030 --> 00:50:34.571
There's a reason why you have to have all that.

872
00:50:35.032 --> 00:50:37.553
You know, you have to, it's just brute force.

873
00:50:38.253 --> 00:50:40.554
Computers started a bit like that, didn't they?

874
00:50:40.614 --> 00:50:41.534
No, it's the exact opposite.

875
00:50:41.554 --> 00:50:42.034
Really, they started?

876
00:50:42.054 --> 00:50:43.815
Yeah, because they were minimally capable.

877
00:50:44.395 --> 00:50:51.858
And so it took brilliance to program Fortran on cards and put them into this huge mainframe that didn't have a hundredth of the power of your phone.

878
00:50:52.518 --> 00:50:56.503
So they start off with minimal power and smart people figured out how to encode them.

879
00:50:56.823 --> 00:51:01.308
And then you got Moore's Law and we saw chips, you know, silicon and all this stuff.

880
00:51:01.348 --> 00:51:04.171
And it just got, you know, faster, faster and faster.

881
00:51:04.211 --> 00:51:06.574
Maybe that's why I'm prejudiced in this, right?

882
00:51:06.594 --> 00:51:08.356
Because I've seen computers get...

883
00:51:09.387 --> 00:51:16.311
incrementally faster, faster, faster by the minute, day, and year, and the output and the capabilities that they create.

884
00:51:17.612 --> 00:51:19.613
And so maybe that holds me back, right?

885
00:51:19.673 --> 00:51:20.814
My experience holds me back.

886
00:51:20.834 --> 00:51:29.019
But I think it's indicative of what comes next pretty much all the time with technology, that it's going to get more powerful, for sure.

887
00:51:29.580 --> 00:51:31.801
It's going to get more capable, for sure.

888
00:51:32.361 --> 00:51:35.143
But as long as there's latency, people have the edge.

889
00:51:37.164 --> 00:51:37.745
It's going to get cheaper.

890
00:51:37.765 --> 00:51:37.865
Yeah.

891
00:51:39.202 --> 00:51:40.423
Yeah, it'll get cheaper for sure.

892
00:51:40.443 --> 00:51:43.124
It already is a lot cheaper than it was two weeks ago.

893
00:51:43.704 --> 00:51:53.168
It's getting cheaper because those companies keep on borrowing and spending more money to get more power in order to power all the AI.

894
00:51:53.469 --> 00:52:00.612
I think this is surprising to hear from you because you're someone who built broadcast.com at a moment when we were living in like an exponential era.

895
00:52:00.852 --> 00:52:01.933
Yeah, an analog error.

896
00:52:01.954 --> 00:52:02.134
Yeah.

897
00:52:02.174 --> 00:52:02.354
Yeah.

898
00:52:03.035 --> 00:52:06.660
And, you know, the internet was, I mean, people were skeptical about the internet.

899
00:52:07.200 --> 00:52:13.949
Yeah, when I said we were going to stream or, you know, netcast is what we called it, they were like, you're an idiot, I'll just turn on the TV.

900
00:52:14.290 --> 00:52:15.952
You're an idiot, I'll just turn on the radio.

901
00:52:15.972 --> 00:52:16.132
Yeah.

902
00:52:17.403 --> 00:52:19.944
I just, I'm not a naysayer on AI.

903
00:52:20.104 --> 00:52:22.745
I am the biggest proponent of AI that there is.

904
00:52:23.565 --> 00:52:29.048
But in order to really get the benefit, you have to be, you know, honest about it.

905
00:52:29.908 --> 00:52:34.290
Like I said one time that a lot of these data centers will turn into pickleball courts, right?

906
00:52:34.650 --> 00:52:36.971
As a metaphor, not that literally they'd be pickleball courts.

907
00:52:37.551 --> 00:52:46.338
Because in order for AI to reach the pinnacle that everybody wants to reach it, you have to have less power doing more, not more power doing more.

908
00:52:46.678 --> 00:52:49.861
Because then you run into constraints like we're running into right now.

909
00:52:50.281 --> 00:53:00.729
We literally could get into a debt bubble in the United States of America because there's so much debt being taken out by all these, you know, hyperscalers.

910
00:53:00.789 --> 00:53:01.490
You think that's possible?

911
00:53:01.710 --> 00:53:07.734
Yeah, of course it is, because our deficit keeps on rising in the United States, which means we have to borrow more money.

912
00:53:08.275 --> 00:53:11.497
And the hyperscalers are borrowing more than they're making.

913
00:53:11.898 --> 00:53:17.502
And so they're borrowing more, and that lenders are competing for that business, or they're competing to get lenders to lend to them.

914
00:53:17.982 --> 00:53:19.083
Rates keep on going up.

915
00:53:19.983 --> 00:53:28.650
I mean, if you've got a $40 billion debt and your interest rates keeps on going up, at some point, you can't raise money anymore.

916
00:53:28.670 --> 00:53:28.930
Right.

917
00:53:29.916 --> 00:53:32.219
There's a lot of praying going on right now.

918
00:53:32.740 --> 00:53:39.369
I'm a huge fan of NVIDIA and Jensen Wang, but they're basically subsidizing half the industry because they have the cash to do it.

919
00:53:40.170 --> 00:53:42.333
And you've got, was it Goot?

920
00:53:42.353 --> 00:53:47.260
No, Meta, I think it is, borrowing more than they have in cash flow by a factor of.

921
00:53:49.240 --> 00:53:54.224
I mean, if it were the brilliance of brilliant, it should be the opposite, right?

922
00:53:54.284 --> 00:53:55.665
And at some point, it may get there.

923
00:53:56.485 --> 00:54:03.651
But until then, we're in this private credit debt environment where there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of things can go wrong.

924
00:54:03.671 --> 00:54:09.775
I mean, if you read what Ray Dalio says, you know, Ray says, we've already crossed the curve, right?

925
00:54:09.795 --> 00:54:18.182
We're already past that point where we could be a debt-laden society where our currency becomes, you know, worthless at some point.

926
00:54:18.785 --> 00:54:24.688
Where are we in this at the moment in terms of the symptoms or markers of the next big collapse?

927
00:54:24.728 --> 00:54:27.729
Well, we're over in this vicinity over here.

928
00:54:27.749 --> 00:54:43.356
The U.S., the U.K., a number of other countries are later in that cycle when there's the loss of the things that we've been talking about, over-indebtedness, more over-indebtedness, the loss of power.

929
00:54:43.616 --> 00:54:45.657
So we're in the collapse period of the decline.

930
00:54:45.677 --> 00:54:46.357
Yeah, the decline.

931
00:54:46.377 --> 00:54:48.258
I'll call that the decline.

932
00:54:48.758 --> 00:54:53.823
It's hard to imagine that for America, especially when you're 34 years old, because you've just always seen the dominance of America.

933
00:54:54.123 --> 00:54:54.343
Right.

934
00:54:54.643 --> 00:54:57.766
No, as an American, it's hard to imagine.

935
00:54:57.826 --> 00:54:58.747
You think we'll figure it out.

936
00:54:58.967 --> 00:54:59.148
Yeah.

937
00:54:59.428 --> 00:55:00.689
We'll always figure it out.

938
00:55:01.410 --> 00:55:06.634
And I'm optimistic enough to think that we will, but there'll be pain associated with that.

939
00:55:07.115 --> 00:55:08.917
Our politicians are great at sloganeering.

940
00:55:09.457 --> 00:55:11.159
They're really bad at actually doing things.

941
00:55:11.739 --> 00:55:13.621
And I think that's going to be tough in this country.

942
00:55:13.901 --> 00:55:14.481
In all countries.

943
00:55:14.641 --> 00:55:20.583
I think a lot of people think AI is the life raft out of the debt as well, because if you hear this age of abundance idea.

944
00:55:20.603 --> 00:55:21.023
It's a race.

945
00:55:21.423 --> 00:55:22.703
It's a race, right?

946
00:55:22.843 --> 00:55:29.705
Will lenders lend to AI companies if interest rates hit, you know, now the 10 year is like 5.2%.

947
00:55:30.225 --> 00:55:34.266
If it goes to 6%, 8%, 10%, something's got to give.

948
00:55:35.066 --> 00:55:41.688
And right now at current interest rates, we're paying a trillion dollars in interest every year in this country.

949
00:55:42.556 --> 00:55:42.956
a trillion.

950
00:55:43.716 --> 00:55:52.660
And if the interest rates keep on going up and what we have to borrow keeps on going up, and then you've got all these hyperscalers competing to get access to that money, something gets crowded out.

951
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:54.080
I don't know which or what.

952
00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:58.062
I'm not enough of a financial expert to do that, but something's going to give.

953
00:55:58.342 --> 00:56:00.243
Are you playing defense in any way, just in case?

954
00:56:00.263 --> 00:56:00.483
Yeah.

955
00:56:00.783 --> 00:56:01.043
Yeah.

956
00:56:01.543 --> 00:56:02.383
What does that look like?

957
00:56:02.483 --> 00:56:05.344
I've got money in this country, in that country.

958
00:56:05.765 --> 00:56:06.525
You know, um,

959
00:56:07.844 --> 00:56:09.964
And I haven't invested nearly as much.

960
00:56:10.525 --> 00:56:11.565
It's the old Warren Buffett thing.

961
00:56:11.585 --> 00:56:13.465
I'll wait and see as things happen.

962
00:56:13.485 --> 00:56:22.727
I might lose a little bit because I'm not as protected as I should have been, but I wanna give it some time to see how things play out.

963
00:56:22.847 --> 00:56:33.569
I often wonder for the average person that's listening now, like what is the advice for them when they hear about this AI stuff going on with all these big San Francisco CEOs and this geopolitical race of AI?

964
00:56:34.270 --> 00:56:36.050
They're thinking like, what should I be doing?

965
00:56:36.630 --> 00:56:43.295
And I think some of the advice that springs to mind is what you said earlier on about actually what you can do in these moments is like get good at something.

966
00:56:43.775 --> 00:56:49.359
That feels like the bucket that nobody can sort of unfill is like your skills and your knowledge at the end of the day.

967
00:56:49.399 --> 00:56:49.539
100%.

968
00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:50.800
Yeah, you're exactly right.

969
00:56:50.820 --> 00:56:54.422
And you said it well, because what else are you going to do?

970
00:56:55.383 --> 00:56:56.564
And why would you give up?

971
00:56:58.405 --> 00:57:00.887
And the other thing I think a lot about is people skills.

972
00:57:00.907 --> 00:57:01.387
Yeah.

973
00:57:01.970 --> 00:57:05.671
In a world where, you know, maybe my agent's going to run my computer for me, but I'm still going to have to interfere.

974
00:57:05.691 --> 00:57:06.791
It becomes more valuable, doesn't it?

975
00:57:06.831 --> 00:57:07.372
Yeah, exactly.

976
00:57:07.392 --> 00:57:07.632
Yeah.

977
00:57:07.932 --> 00:57:08.152
Yeah.

978
00:57:08.212 --> 00:57:18.195
I mean, some of the investments I've made, smaller investments are like a company that does silent discos, you know, and it's face-to-face communications.

979
00:57:18.395 --> 00:57:21.435
And that's part of the reason why you've seen sports valuations go up so much.

980
00:57:21.796 --> 00:57:26.657
They think that it's AI proof, but it has other issues.

981
00:57:26.677 --> 00:57:26.777
Yeah.

982
00:57:28.460 --> 00:57:34.726
I've spent the last decade building and investing in companies, and so often the conversation around marketing budgets follows the exact same pattern.

983
00:57:34.826 --> 00:57:37.669
The budget gets approved, but then the results don't come back.

984
00:57:37.789 --> 00:57:41.352
And most of the time, the creative pitch and the offer is fine.

985
00:57:41.673 --> 00:57:43.254
The problem lies with the audience.

986
00:57:43.555 --> 00:57:46.858
Ads reach people who will never buy or refer,

987
00:57:47.278 --> 00:57:49.319
nor do they have the power to sign off anything at all.

988
00:57:49.619 --> 00:57:52.181
And this is why so much budget gets wasted.

989
00:57:52.361 --> 00:58:02.027
LinkedIn Ads, who are a sponsor of this podcast, lets you reach them specifically by job title, seniority, company size, industry, the skills that they have, and much more.

990
00:58:02.187 --> 00:58:04.709
You're no longer hoping your ad reaches the right person.

991
00:58:05.109 --> 00:58:07.350
Instead, you're defining exactly who sees it.

992
00:58:07.630 --> 00:58:12.874
And LinkedIn ads drives the highest B2B return on ad spend across all major ad networks.

993
00:58:13.274 --> 00:58:16.576
Give them a try at linkedin.com slash diary.

994
00:58:16.896 --> 00:58:26.042
And if you spend $250 on your first campaign, you'll get a $250 credit for your next one just by going to linkedin.com slash diary.

995
00:58:26.343 --> 00:58:27.023
Keep this to yourself.

996
00:58:27.063 --> 00:58:28.064
Terms and conditions apply.

997
00:58:28.994 --> 00:58:30.956
You mentioned earlier on having your teeth knocked down.

998
00:58:31.717 --> 00:58:36.644
And you were sort of alluding to the fact that this made you a little bit of an insecure young man to some degree.

999
00:58:36.664 --> 00:58:37.685
Yeah, 100%.

1000
00:58:37.805 --> 00:58:44.914
Oftentimes when I interview someone like yourself, the audience and me will assume that you are...

1001
00:58:46.101 --> 00:58:49.024
very intentionally, consciously driven.

1002
00:58:49.505 --> 00:58:52.848
But the more I've interviewed people, sometimes you figure out that sometimes they're a little bit dragged.

1003
00:58:53.228 --> 00:58:53.529
Oh, yeah.

1004
00:58:53.809 --> 00:58:54.630
By their insecurities.

1005
00:58:54.650 --> 00:58:56.252
Oh, 100%, right?

1006
00:58:56.272 --> 00:58:57.913
I was the fat kid, right?

1007
00:58:58.194 --> 00:58:59.315
And I would do anything.

1008
00:58:59.475 --> 00:59:02.638
Like, I literally wore a shirt to school that said bullshit.

1009
00:59:02.658 --> 00:59:04.060
My mom's like, you're going to get suspended.

1010
00:59:04.080 --> 00:59:04.440
Yeah.

1011
00:59:04.700 --> 00:59:10.245
20 minutes after I got there, I had a pair of jeans that I ripped up from the bottom all the way up to my hip.

1012
00:59:10.605 --> 00:59:13.487
And then I stapled it together just to stand out and get attention.

1013
00:59:13.507 --> 00:59:20.113
Because I like, like after I became famous, people went back to my high school peers, you know, kids in my class.

1014
00:59:20.353 --> 00:59:21.514
They had no idea who I was.

1015
00:59:23.756 --> 00:59:24.816
My friends did, right?

1016
00:59:24.836 --> 00:59:26.378
The people I was close to, but nobody.

1017
00:59:26.638 --> 00:59:31.462
And I saw something where somebody took one of the pictures from my high school yearbook and they circled it as being me.

1018
00:59:32.663 --> 00:59:33.323
It wasn't me.

1019
00:59:34.083 --> 00:59:41.565
So yeah, I was not somebody who stood out or was considered to be, you know, most likely to be successful at all.

1020
00:59:41.885 --> 00:59:45.085
Was that sort of shame insecurity part of your drive?

1021
00:59:45.305 --> 00:59:46.445
Oh yeah, for sure.

1022
00:59:46.766 --> 00:59:47.746
Just to prove people wrong.

1023
00:59:48.046 --> 00:59:49.626
That's one of the reasons I went to Indiana.

1024
00:59:49.926 --> 00:59:54.407
And I remember getting to IU and saying, you know, here's my chance for a fresh start.

1025
00:59:54.627 --> 00:59:57.067
I get to be whoever I want to be, act like it.

1026
00:59:57.487 --> 01:00:00.128
Did you think becoming successful and or famous would

1027
01:00:00.988 --> 01:00:04.891
fix the insecurity, the thing that was invalidating you at some level?

1028
01:00:04.951 --> 01:00:07.052
I didn't think, no, I didn't think about it that directly.

1029
01:00:07.112 --> 01:00:08.553
I didn't, you know, one or the other.

1030
01:00:08.673 --> 01:00:10.795
I just thought I hated being broke.

1031
01:00:11.435 --> 01:00:13.857
You know, I wanted to control my own destiny.

1032
01:00:14.157 --> 01:00:15.038
That was a big thing.

1033
01:00:15.638 --> 01:00:17.819
And I wanted to be able to control my own time.

1034
01:00:18.160 --> 01:00:25.184
Like after I sold micro solutions, I didn't immediately say, I'm going to take this money, invest it, and I'm going to go out there and make as much money as I can.

1035
01:00:25.505 --> 01:00:26.505
I did the exact opposite.

1036
01:00:26.525 --> 01:00:28.427
I bought a lifetime pass on American airlines.

1037
01:00:28.507 --> 01:00:28.987
I heard about this.

1038
01:00:29.267 --> 01:00:35.710
And my mission was to go out there and get as fucked up as possible with as many people as possible and as many countries as possible.

1039
01:00:36.110 --> 01:00:39.651
And just to enjoy, like, I have an iWatch now because all the data.

1040
01:00:40.072 --> 01:00:47.855
And the day I sold MicroSolutions, I took off my watch and I said, I'm never going to wear a watch again because that means I'm working on somebody else's time.

1041
01:00:48.435 --> 01:00:51.899
When by not having a watch, by being successful, it's my time.

1042
01:00:52.419 --> 01:00:53.380
Why I don't get dressed up?

1043
01:00:53.420 --> 01:00:54.781
Why I won't wear a tie?

1044
01:00:54.801 --> 01:00:57.324
It's like swag isn't how you dress.

1045
01:00:57.744 --> 01:01:01.028
Swag is being able to tell somebody else how they dress, you know?

1046
01:01:01.208 --> 01:01:04.291
And I just want to control my own destiny and my own time.

1047
01:01:04.531 --> 01:01:07.333
And you made a couple million dollars from selling microsolutions as a young man.

1048
01:01:07.633 --> 01:01:11.315
You then start the broadcast.com company in your early 30s?

1049
01:01:11.335 --> 01:01:12.796
37, yeah.

1050
01:01:12.856 --> 01:01:13.697
Oh, you were 37.

1051
01:01:14.457 --> 01:01:18.159
And that sold four years later to Yahoo for $5.7 billion in stock.

1052
01:01:18.219 --> 01:01:18.740
In stock, yeah.

1053
01:01:19.020 --> 01:01:23.303
Which gave you a paper net worth of somewhere between roughly $1.5, $1.7 billion.

1054
01:01:23.503 --> 01:01:24.663
Paper, yeah.

1055
01:01:24.764 --> 01:01:25.944
Did that change anything?

1056
01:01:26.244 --> 01:01:26.685
Oh, yeah.

1057
01:01:27.045 --> 01:01:27.245
Yeah.

1058
01:01:27.285 --> 01:01:28.526
Changed everything, you know.

1059
01:01:28.586 --> 01:01:29.026
Inside.

1060
01:01:29.807 --> 01:01:31.528
Yeah, because it meant instead of...

1061
01:01:32.611 --> 01:01:35.280
hustling and worrying about what came next.

1062
01:01:36.810 --> 01:01:38.531
I got to do whatever the fuck I wanted to do.

1063
01:01:38.992 --> 01:01:40.573
And that was the beauty of the whole thing.

1064
01:01:40.733 --> 01:01:41.974
I mean, buying the maps.

1065
01:01:41.994 --> 01:01:46.738
Never in a million years would have crossed my mind that I would own an NBA team.

1066
01:01:47.478 --> 01:01:51.141
And again, going back to I wanted to control my own time.

1067
01:01:51.161 --> 01:01:53.563
That was something my parents never had the option to do.

1068
01:01:54.043 --> 01:01:56.646
They always were obligated to somebody else.

1069
01:01:57.066 --> 01:01:58.207
They had to show up at work.

1070
01:01:58.247 --> 01:01:59.628
They had to be nice to so-and-so.

1071
01:01:59.648 --> 01:02:00.769
They had to do such-and-such.

1072
01:02:01.269 --> 01:02:05.552
And just being able to come home and eat dinner and watch TV was,

1073
01:02:06.536 --> 01:02:07.538
was their joy.

1074
01:02:08.279 --> 01:02:10.421
Your dad got to see you become a successful man.

1075
01:02:10.442 --> 01:02:10.642
Yeah.

1076
01:02:10.802 --> 01:02:11.303
What did he think?

1077
01:02:11.843 --> 01:02:14.107
Oh, he would just cry and cry and cry.

1078
01:02:14.127 --> 01:02:16.249
We're an emotional family, let's put it that way.

1079
01:02:16.270 --> 01:02:16.670
Yeah.

1080
01:02:16.930 --> 01:02:23.079
Um, he obviously was proud of all of us and he would just shake his head and he goes, I don't know where you got it.

1081
01:02:24.670 --> 01:02:26.291
certainly did come from me or your mom.

1082
01:02:26.471 --> 01:02:33.453
And are there anything, is there anything else that acquiring lots of money has taught you about meaning happiness or what this is all really about?

1083
01:02:33.633 --> 01:02:33.893
Yeah.

1084
01:02:33.973 --> 01:02:37.534
If you're miserable when you're poor, good chance you're going to be miserable when you're rich.

1085
01:02:38.475 --> 01:02:39.715
Money can't change who you are.

1086
01:02:40.135 --> 01:02:42.096
Money can't change your approach to life.

1087
01:02:42.676 --> 01:02:45.217
Money can't change how you feel about yourself.

1088
01:02:45.937 --> 01:02:46.657
It really won't.

1089
01:02:47.237 --> 01:02:47.898
I mean, it's nice.

1090
01:02:48.338 --> 01:02:51.679
I like being rich a whole lot more than I like being broke, but

1091
01:02:52.582 --> 01:02:55.666
I really take pride in the fact that, you know, I still have the same friends.

1092
01:02:56.247 --> 01:02:58.209
You know, my high school buddies are still my high school buddies.

1093
01:02:58.249 --> 01:02:59.371
I'm still close to my brothers.

1094
01:02:59.411 --> 01:03:01.193
I'm still close to my rugby teammates.

1095
01:03:01.233 --> 01:03:04.558
I'm still close to, you know, the same people that always have meant something to me.

1096
01:03:05.399 --> 01:03:06.099
Those are my friends.

1097
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:07.842
Do you have to be ruthless in business?

1098
01:03:08.963 --> 01:03:09.563
Absolutely not.

1099
01:03:09.924 --> 01:03:11.425
That was one of the biggest mistakes I made.

1100
01:03:12.025 --> 01:03:13.886
In microsolutions, I used to scream.

1101
01:03:14.487 --> 01:03:20.130
And then Todd Wagner, my partner at broadcast.com, told me, Mark, people are afraid of you.

1102
01:03:20.430 --> 01:03:21.491
It's counterproductive.

1103
01:03:21.511 --> 01:03:23.032
You have to, you know, chill out.

1104
01:03:23.633 --> 01:03:24.193
And he was right.

1105
01:03:24.633 --> 01:03:28.656
And I found that I got a lot further by being nice than by being a dick.

1106
01:03:29.096 --> 01:03:32.058
This idea of being nice is another lesson that your father was quite clear on.

1107
01:03:32.298 --> 01:03:32.958
Yeah, for sure.

1108
01:03:33.078 --> 01:03:34.599
I mean, he was nice to everybody.

1109
01:03:35.059 --> 01:03:38.101
I can be mad, but it's not going to change anything.

1110
01:03:38.681 --> 01:03:43.044
You know, and if it's not going to change anything and it makes me feel worse by being mad, fuck it.

1111
01:03:43.284 --> 01:03:46.225
But aren't people going to fuck with you if they don't know that you have it in the locker?

1112
01:03:46.525 --> 01:03:47.166
What are they going to do?

1113
01:03:47.746 --> 01:03:56.929
You know, people might, again, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but if people think you're a soft touch, aren't they going to- I'm not writing them checks for nothing, right?

1114
01:03:57.049 --> 01:04:03.111
I'm just not going to be, I mean, look, if you saw me with referees at a basketball game, that was like my outlet, right?

1115
01:04:03.131 --> 01:04:04.531
That's where I got it out of my system.

1116
01:04:04.631 --> 01:04:08.152
But like in business, it's just not worth it, particularly now.

1117
01:04:08.553 --> 01:04:12.194
Like when I was first getting started, I'm in my twenties and I didn't know any better.

1118
01:04:12.214 --> 01:04:13.674
I didn't really, I didn't have any role models.

1119
01:04:13.694 --> 01:04:14.795
I was just learning as I went.

1120
01:04:15.415 --> 01:04:15.655
Then-

1121
01:04:16.315 --> 01:04:17.816
You know, I was a jerk.

1122
01:04:17.856 --> 01:04:18.376
I would yell.

1123
01:04:18.416 --> 01:04:19.136
I would scream.

1124
01:04:19.597 --> 01:04:25.079
But once I got to broadcast.com, audio net, broadcast.com, I got a lot more done.

1125
01:04:25.659 --> 01:04:26.780
And I was happier about it.

1126
01:04:27.220 --> 01:04:28.781
You know, it just made it easier.

1127
01:04:28.801 --> 01:04:31.182
And people, you know, reacted better to me.

1128
01:04:31.242 --> 01:04:32.803
And so it worked out.

1129
01:04:33.704 --> 01:04:36.985
Because we hear about these stories of Steve Jobs and his anger and his rage.

1130
01:04:37.065 --> 01:04:39.607
And I was just reading Ari Emanuel's book about a rage.

1131
01:04:40.007 --> 01:04:40.527
Yeah.

1132
01:04:40.607 --> 01:04:41.467
Ari can let it loose.

1133
01:04:41.507 --> 01:04:41.788
Yeah.

1134
01:04:42.348 --> 01:04:43.128
But everybody's different.

1135
01:04:43.308 --> 01:04:50.151
You know, I mean, what works for you and just for me, like now, why would I get mad at somebody?

1136
01:04:50.951 --> 01:04:51.872
What good does it do me?

1137
01:04:52.272 --> 01:04:53.553
You seem like a very happy person.

1138
01:04:53.753 --> 01:04:54.333
I try to be.

1139
01:04:54.813 --> 01:04:55.093
Right.

1140
01:04:55.133 --> 01:04:59.695
I mean, on and off camera, I felt like you were a very optimistic, happy person.

1141
01:04:59.715 --> 01:05:00.876
Yeah, because why not?

1142
01:05:00.896 --> 01:05:01.016
Yeah.

1143
01:05:01.608 --> 01:05:11.232
It's actually quite rare to meet someone who is a billionaire, who has that positive energy and sort of contentment for some reason.

1144
01:05:11.872 --> 01:05:14.613
Money changed my life, but it didn't change my life.

1145
01:05:15.594 --> 01:05:22.016
You know, things I could buy, not having stress about where I lived or paying the bills, all the stuff that money can do.

1146
01:05:22.857 --> 01:05:27.299
But it didn't make me a better person or a worse person.

1147
01:05:27.739 --> 01:05:29.359
It didn't change my relationship.

1148
01:05:30.720 --> 01:05:33.762
Honestly, being a celebrity was a lot harder than being rich.

1149
01:05:34.202 --> 01:05:34.422
Really?

1150
01:05:34.582 --> 01:05:37.845
Yeah, particularly as social media became more prevalent.

1151
01:05:37.885 --> 01:05:41.667
And when Shark Tank blew up, you know, the Mavs had just won a championship.

1152
01:05:42.047 --> 01:05:45.609
Shark Tank now is at the top, at its peak, ratings and everything.

1153
01:05:46.170 --> 01:05:47.751
And, I mean, celebrities everywhere.

1154
01:05:47.851 --> 01:05:48.952
Oh, I love Shark Tank.

1155
01:05:49.032 --> 01:05:50.232
It's my new favorite show.

1156
01:05:50.272 --> 01:05:51.513
You know how all that stuff goes, right?

1157
01:05:52.274 --> 01:05:54.775
And being rich doesn't give you attention, right?

1158
01:05:54.815 --> 01:05:57.317
It just changes how you deal with things.

1159
01:05:57.737 --> 01:05:58.558
Being a celebrity...

1160
01:05:59.604 --> 01:06:02.008
brings you attention, some good, some bad.

1161
01:06:03.149 --> 01:06:06.093
And you were, you're an older brother of three brothers.

1162
01:06:06.114 --> 01:06:07.055
Yeah, two younger brothers.

1163
01:06:07.095 --> 01:06:08.677
How has that been formative to you?

1164
01:06:08.797 --> 01:06:15.728
Because I, you know, I'm a younger brother of four, but I always think of older brothers as being, I mean, more likely to lead.

1165
01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:18.921
Is that an accurate reflection of what it was like being older brother?

1166
01:06:18.942 --> 01:06:19.522
Yeah, yeah.

1167
01:06:19.542 --> 01:06:21.343
Because they both followed me to Dallas.

1168
01:06:21.363 --> 01:06:22.384
Both super smart guys.

1169
01:06:22.804 --> 01:06:23.264
Great guys.

1170
01:06:23.285 --> 01:06:24.105
We're close.

1171
01:06:24.565 --> 01:06:25.666
But they always copied me.

1172
01:06:26.307 --> 01:06:30.690
And, you know, there's two and a half year difference to Brian, my middle brother, and six year difference.

1173
01:06:31.110 --> 01:06:33.912
So I was gone because I left early for college.

1174
01:06:34.392 --> 01:06:38.495
We weren't as close then because they were super young and I was out of the house.

1175
01:06:38.535 --> 01:06:41.697
But then I went to Indiana and they would come visit me.

1176
01:06:41.777 --> 01:06:45.420
And, you know, then I came after Indiana, I went to Dallas and they came and lived with me.

1177
01:06:45.740 --> 01:06:48.161
Both of them lived with me at some point, and that's when we got close.

1178
01:06:48.862 --> 01:06:51.243
What role do you think you've played in their lives as Big Brother?

1179
01:06:51.263 --> 01:06:54.085
You know, that's a great question.

1180
01:06:54.365 --> 01:06:57.146
I hope I've been able to set a good example.

1181
01:06:57.327 --> 01:06:57.867
You know, I think...

1182
01:06:59.240 --> 01:07:08.665
I've been a double-edged sword for them as a big brother in that I think I've set a good example in many ways, and I tried to be supportive and help them where I could.

1183
01:07:09.305 --> 01:07:12.047
But then, you know what it's like when it comes with celebrity, right?

1184
01:07:12.067 --> 01:07:14.208
That creates a whole different set of pressures.

1185
01:07:14.808 --> 01:07:21.752
And I think, you know, particularly living in Dallas, as things started to really take off for me, it was tough on them, and I could tell.

1186
01:07:22.352 --> 01:07:27.035
You know, it's not that they weren't supportive, but, you know, it's not like Cuban is Smith, right?

1187
01:07:27.115 --> 01:07:32.418
Where, you know, it's like Cuban, oh, you must be related to, or your brother, you know, how are you related to Mark?

1188
01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:36.241
And, I mean, I know that that put a lot of pressure on them.

1189
01:07:36.961 --> 01:07:37.862
Put a lot of pressure on them.

1190
01:07:38.102 --> 01:07:38.342
Yeah.

1191
01:07:39.542 --> 01:07:41.724
Because, you know, well, what are you doing, right?

1192
01:07:41.784 --> 01:07:43.745
Or you just live off your brother or this or that.

1193
01:07:43.785 --> 01:07:47.127
And both of them are smart and both of them have made their own way and done really well.

1194
01:07:47.147 --> 01:07:55.473
But, you know, and we haven't talked about it a lot, but, you know, it was definitely tougher on them as things really started to take off for me.

1195
01:07:56.394 --> 01:07:58.235
Brian struggled.

1196
01:07:58.595 --> 01:07:59.616
Yeah.

1197
01:07:59.636 --> 01:08:00.416
We actually spoke to Brian.

1198
01:08:00.677 --> 01:08:01.057
Oh, you did?

1199
01:08:01.197 --> 01:08:01.877
We did speak to Brian.

1200
01:08:01.897 --> 01:08:02.338
Yeah.

1201
01:08:02.358 --> 01:08:02.498
Yeah.

1202
01:08:03.315 --> 01:08:05.177
And he sort of spoke to some of those struggles.

1203
01:08:05.337 --> 01:08:05.597
Yeah.

1204
01:08:05.937 --> 01:08:08.559
But he also, he wrote you a letter.

1205
01:08:08.840 --> 01:08:09.400
Oh, my God.

1206
01:08:09.420 --> 01:08:12.142
I'll probably start crying.

1207
01:08:12.563 --> 01:08:12.923
Can I read it?

1208
01:08:13.384 --> 01:08:13.584
Yeah.

1209
01:08:13.684 --> 01:08:16.967
I read it, and I found it to be, you know, very emotional.

1210
01:08:16.987 --> 01:08:22.031
Do you want me to read it out loud?

1211
01:08:22.491 --> 01:08:22.631
Yeah.

1212
01:08:23.652 --> 01:08:25.474
We have so many great childhood memories.

1213
01:08:26.114 --> 01:08:26.875
It's hard to pick one.

1214
01:08:29.649 --> 01:08:32.031
So I'll go to the one that feels most personal to me.

1215
01:08:32.111 --> 01:08:35.815
July 2005 is the lowest moment in my life, wanting to end it.

1216
01:08:36.616 --> 01:08:39.018
You and Jeff were there for me, as you both always have been.

1217
01:08:40.179 --> 01:08:42.041
I wouldn't be here today if not for you both.

1218
01:08:42.261 --> 01:08:48.126
As our dad told us growing up, no matter what happens or where you go, always stay in contact with your brothers.

1219
01:08:49.127 --> 01:08:54.852
It's no accident that after so many decades, 1,200 miles from Pittsburgh, we all live within walking distance of each other.

1220
01:08:54.952 --> 01:08:55.373
I love you.

1221
01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:04.965
Yeah, it was not a good time in 2005.

1222
01:09:07.287 --> 01:09:16.596
And again, that goes part and parcel to being my little brother and being out and about in the social scene and...

1223
01:09:17.983 --> 01:09:19.724
You know, I bought the Mavs in 2000.

1224
01:09:19.744 --> 01:09:22.545
You know, I was becoming famous.

1225
01:09:22.766 --> 01:09:25.567
And all of a sudden, it wasn't a burden he chose, right?

1226
01:09:25.587 --> 01:09:26.588
Or it wasn't his choice.

1227
01:09:26.628 --> 01:09:28.569
It was just the way things turned out.

1228
01:09:29.629 --> 01:09:32.471
And, you know, he took a turn.

1229
01:09:32.491 --> 01:09:38.194
I mean, he just had issues, had problems.

1230
01:09:38.334 --> 01:09:40.955
And Jeff called me.

1231
01:09:40.975 --> 01:09:41.736
I was out of town.

1232
01:09:41.756 --> 01:09:42.636
I came back in.

1233
01:09:43.036 --> 01:09:45.338
And we went and got him and put him in rehab.

1234
01:09:45.458 --> 01:09:45.598
And...

1235
01:09:46.556 --> 01:09:49.717
You know, and he's been sober ever since, so thank God for that.

1236
01:09:52.278 --> 01:09:53.738
It puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

1237
01:09:53.758 --> 01:09:54.299
Yeah.

1238
01:09:54.439 --> 01:09:55.459
In so many ways.

1239
01:09:55.819 --> 01:09:59.740
It's crazy because, you know, it's not like we were all best friends and did everything together.

1240
01:10:00.821 --> 01:10:09.804
But we always connected and stayed together, family trips, going places with my dad or my mom or to this day.

1241
01:10:11.028 --> 01:10:19.251
You know, we're texting each other, I don't even know how many times a week, or if there's a Steelers game or Pirates game or something going on, we're still connected.

1242
01:10:20.191 --> 01:10:21.712
Your mother, you mentioned missing your father.

1243
01:10:21.732 --> 01:10:25.893
Your mother and your father passed over 2017 and 2022.

1244
01:10:26.173 --> 01:10:30.895
Did that moment bring the family together or bring your siblings together?

1245
01:10:32.335 --> 01:10:34.316
I mean, in the obvious sense, yes.

1246
01:10:34.436 --> 01:10:35.916
I mean, at that point in time.

1247
01:10:36.816 --> 01:10:38.377
But I think...

1248
01:10:40.482 --> 01:10:43.564
It makes you feel, when your parents pass, it makes you feel your own mortality.

1249
01:10:44.124 --> 01:10:45.905
Everybody's time comes at some point.

1250
01:10:46.946 --> 01:10:48.346
And my dad made it to 92.

1251
01:10:48.366 --> 01:10:49.847
My mom made it to 85.

1252
01:10:49.887 --> 01:10:54.870
And that sounds like a long time until you realize it's not as long as you hope.

1253
01:10:55.230 --> 01:10:58.552
And so, yeah, it definitely connected us.

1254
01:10:59.580 --> 01:11:01.820
even more strongly than we were.

1255
01:11:02.001 --> 01:11:09.362
When I read about some of these things and I thought about some of your more recent decisions around leaving Shark Tank, selling the Mavs, they felt like they were part of the same puzzle.

1256
01:11:09.542 --> 01:11:11.062
100%, yeah, definitely.

1257
01:11:11.082 --> 01:11:23.725
Because, again, when you start feeling your own mortality and you start recognizing what's important, my kids, my family, that next business trip didn't seem nearly as important as it used to.

1258
01:11:24.645 --> 01:11:27.206
And missing a birthday...

1259
01:11:28.197 --> 01:11:33.460
and telling myself, well, I'll be there for the next one, you know, became a mistake.

1260
01:11:33.500 --> 01:11:35.722
And it was just like, okay, what's the point of doing this?

1261
01:11:35.882 --> 01:11:47.969
You know, they were 13, 16, and 19 when I sold the Mavs, and a little bit older when I got out of Shark Tank.

1262
01:11:48.049 --> 01:11:52.232
And, you know, it wasn't going to be all that long until they were on their own.

1263
01:11:52.692 --> 01:11:54.413
And I just wanted to be there as much as I could.

1264
01:11:56.294 --> 01:11:57.295
Should everyone be an entrepreneur?

1265
01:11:58.174 --> 01:12:01.072
No, not everybody's built to be an entrepreneur.

1266
01:12:01.153 --> 01:12:01.696
What are they missing?

1267
01:12:03.125 --> 01:12:07.788
If you have to ask yourself if you can be an entrepreneur, you're probably not an entrepreneur.

1268
01:12:08.329 --> 01:12:15.534
There's something that you want to accomplish or there's a skill that you have that you want to use to your own benefit, financial benefit.

1269
01:12:16.034 --> 01:12:22.138
But not everybody's willing to do the work like we talked about earlier, to do the preparation, to fight the battles.

1270
01:12:22.438 --> 01:12:29.824
And I think a lot of people think that when you become an entrepreneur, you get more control of your life as opposed to being subject to the whims of your bosses.

1271
01:12:30.304 --> 01:12:31.225
It's the exact opposite.

1272
01:12:31.245 --> 01:12:31.765
Hmm.

1273
01:12:32.065 --> 01:12:38.010
You have no control of your life as an entrepreneur because your customers, your employees, there's always something.

1274
01:12:38.510 --> 01:12:50.761
Some employee's child is sick and you have to work it through because particularly, you know, if you have a company that has under 100 employees, everybody's family at some level, you know, and you know everybody.

1275
01:12:50.801 --> 01:12:51.862
You talk to them.

1276
01:12:51.882 --> 01:12:53.323
You know what's happening in your lives.

1277
01:12:53.823 --> 01:12:55.785
People don't expect that when they become an entrepreneur.

1278
01:12:56.065 --> 01:12:58.147
If I start Mark there, 20-year-old Mark here.

1279
01:12:58.167 --> 01:12:59.047
Yeah, programmer Mark.

1280
01:12:59.568 --> 01:13:01.069
Just give me the preface on why I'm asking this question.

1281
01:13:01.189 --> 01:13:03.891
I think that the journey you've been on changes a man.

1282
01:13:04.171 --> 01:13:06.053
You know, in several ways, small ways.

1283
01:13:06.673 --> 01:13:08.335
It's kind of like being pelted by hail.

1284
01:13:09.436 --> 01:13:10.657
Especially if you're a famous person.

1285
01:13:11.417 --> 01:13:18.799
So I think people become clearer on their principles and they learn principles, but they also become clearer on their principles.

1286
01:13:18.819 --> 01:13:28.801
So if I sat 21-year-old Mark there and then you're sat here now, how has this journey being pelted by the world, good and bad, shaped you?

1287
01:13:28.841 --> 01:13:30.081
And like, what's changed?

1288
01:13:30.201 --> 01:13:31.201
That's a great question.

1289
01:13:33.962 --> 01:13:40.083
I mean, I think family obviously changes you the most, but from a business perspective here, and it's great that you brought this picture.

1290
01:13:40.123 --> 01:13:40.623
So you see...

1291
01:13:41.932 --> 01:13:46.074
That poster right there that hadn't been hung up yet says poverty sucks.

1292
01:13:48.116 --> 01:13:48.956
And I used to have it.

1293
01:13:49.276 --> 01:13:50.317
I just moved in the house.

1294
01:13:50.337 --> 01:13:51.618
That's the second bedroom of my house.

1295
01:13:52.058 --> 01:13:55.760
Every house or apartment that I lived in, that was on the wall.

1296
01:13:56.220 --> 01:13:57.041
Poverty sucks.

1297
01:13:57.081 --> 01:13:58.622
And I think that's the big difference.

1298
01:13:59.142 --> 01:14:01.564
You know, this mark was, you know—

1299
01:14:02.576 --> 01:14:09.042
I would sit there for 25, 26 straight hours writing software for customers because I knew I had to do it.

1300
01:14:09.202 --> 01:14:10.763
And you had no degree in software.

1301
01:14:10.823 --> 01:14:12.184
No, I had to teach myself everything.

1302
01:14:12.204 --> 01:14:15.007
So anything I didn't know, I had to learn, teach myself.

1303
01:14:15.727 --> 01:14:16.728
And that's what I would do.

1304
01:14:16.808 --> 01:14:19.230
I literally, I would get a bucket of ribs.

1305
01:14:19.370 --> 01:14:20.752
It's so gross now.

1306
01:14:20.812 --> 01:14:24.355
But I would sit there because I would start concentrating so hard.

1307
01:14:25.015 --> 01:14:27.758
And I would look up thinking it's three or four hours later.

1308
01:14:28.358 --> 01:14:35.502
And it'd be 28 hours later because I was just so consumed by what I was doing because I wanted to get to that next level.

1309
01:14:35.882 --> 01:14:37.803
You found out what you were good at and what you were capable of.

1310
01:14:38.784 --> 01:14:41.325
Did you also find out what you were not capable of and what you were not good at?

1311
01:14:41.485 --> 01:14:41.845
Oh, yeah.

1312
01:14:41.865 --> 01:14:42.786
A lot of stuff.

1313
01:14:43.606 --> 01:14:44.427
What do I suck at?

1314
01:14:44.587 --> 01:14:52.111
I want to just preface this by saying I think this is also really important because sometimes people look at a billionaire, successful businessman like you and go, he must just fucking be.

1315
01:14:52.462 --> 01:14:53.243
Oh, no, no.

1316
01:14:53.263 --> 01:14:54.624
There's a lot of things I'm awful at.

1317
01:14:54.904 --> 01:14:57.666
At Micro Solutions, I had a partner, Martin Woodall.

1318
01:14:58.427 --> 01:14:59.788
Martin Woodall was anal.

1319
01:15:00.168 --> 01:15:02.470
He was just a perfectionist about everything.

1320
01:15:02.910 --> 01:15:03.291
I'm not.

1321
01:15:03.691 --> 01:15:04.632
I'm ready, fire, aim.

1322
01:15:04.972 --> 01:15:06.433
Go, go, go, go, go.

1323
01:15:06.473 --> 01:15:09.035
And if you go out of the baseline, so be it, right?

1324
01:15:09.075 --> 01:15:10.836
If it goes into touch, so be it.

1325
01:15:10.856 --> 01:15:11.797
It doesn't matter, right?

1326
01:15:11.857 --> 01:15:13.238
That's for somebody else to deal with.

1327
01:15:13.278 --> 01:15:16.261
When I got to broadcast.com, Todd Wagner, same way.

1328
01:15:16.681 --> 01:15:18.362
His skill set complemented mine.

1329
01:15:18.703 --> 01:15:20.064
It wasn't that I needed a partner.

1330
01:15:20.084 --> 01:15:20.624
It wasn't.

1331
01:15:20.664 --> 01:15:22.525
is that I needed a partner, you know?

1332
01:15:23.245 --> 01:15:27.186
And recognizing that I never was going to be good at the details.

1333
01:15:27.666 --> 01:15:31.467
Dr. Oshmijanski now, Cost Plus Drugs, very detail-oriented.

1334
01:15:31.687 --> 01:15:36.249
I need that complement to my skill set because I'm awful at the details.

1335
01:15:36.329 --> 01:15:37.049
What about finance?

1336
01:15:37.529 --> 01:15:38.149
Were you good at finance?

1337
01:15:38.169 --> 01:15:39.730
Because you didn't have a finance degree, did you?

1338
01:15:39.950 --> 01:15:42.211
Oh, no, but I had taken finance classes.

1339
01:15:42.231 --> 01:15:43.951
I had taken entrepreneurship classes.

1340
01:15:44.431 --> 01:15:45.452
So, yeah, I get finance.

1341
01:15:45.492 --> 01:15:48.833
I might not be able to structure the most advanced M&A deal, but...

1342
01:15:49.533 --> 01:15:50.694
but I'm going to understand it.

1343
01:15:51.154 --> 01:15:52.374
What about hiring and leadership?

1344
01:15:52.914 --> 01:15:54.275
And that's another thing, right?

1345
01:15:54.335 --> 01:15:55.555
Let's separate hiring and leadership.

1346
01:15:56.036 --> 01:15:57.796
Leadership is one thing I think I'm good at, right?

1347
01:15:58.096 --> 01:15:59.737
Hiring, suck at it.

1348
01:16:00.177 --> 01:16:06.220
As a salesperson, I would see Stephen sitting across from me and Stephen would give me an answer to a question.

1349
01:16:06.240 --> 01:16:06.860
I'm like, I'm not.

1350
01:16:07.420 --> 01:16:08.641
okay, I can help Steven.

1351
01:16:08.782 --> 01:16:09.943
I can make it work.

1352
01:16:10.043 --> 01:16:12.065
I want this guy to be successful at my company.

1353
01:16:12.345 --> 01:16:14.488
And I would hire the worst possible people.

1354
01:16:14.528 --> 01:16:15.509
Why did you hire this guy?

1355
01:16:15.829 --> 01:16:17.271
Well, I thought it's like a Shark Tank deal.

1356
01:16:17.511 --> 01:16:18.332
This company sucks.

1357
01:16:18.372 --> 01:16:19.573
Why were you investing in this guy?

1358
01:16:19.633 --> 01:16:20.554
Oh, I can make it work.

1359
01:16:20.715 --> 01:16:21.335
I can make it work.

1360
01:16:21.796 --> 01:16:23.778
And so people are like, hey, Mark, can I get a job?

1361
01:16:23.798 --> 01:16:24.939
Can I send you my resume?

1362
01:16:24.979 --> 01:16:25.280
I'm like...

1363
01:16:25.933 --> 01:16:26.814
Don't send it to me.

1364
01:16:26.834 --> 01:16:28.475
Because I might hire you.

1365
01:16:28.575 --> 01:16:29.896
I'm awful at it.

1366
01:16:30.557 --> 01:16:33.900
How important is it, though, as a skill in terms of outcomes, do you think?

1367
01:16:34.000 --> 01:16:35.421
Oh, hiring is critical, right?

1368
01:16:35.782 --> 01:16:40.466
I mean, if you don't have the right people and the right culture, the people that fit into that culture, you're going to suck.

1369
01:16:40.606 --> 01:16:43.448
But, you know, we would hire slow, but fire fast.

1370
01:16:43.468 --> 01:16:47.892
So if there's somebody that these guys hired and I'm like, they're not going to work, they're

1371
01:16:48.147 --> 01:16:49.708
they would know and it'd get resolved.

1372
01:16:50.048 --> 01:16:51.229
People, founders don't talk about that.

1373
01:16:51.269 --> 01:16:57.893
And if they talk about like creating a fancy, shiny product that does something awesome, but the actual art of like building the team is more important.

1374
01:16:58.274 --> 01:16:58.494
Yeah.

1375
01:16:58.534 --> 01:16:58.714
Yeah.

1376
01:16:58.734 --> 01:17:00.735
I mean, you got to have the right product, the right service, but...

1377
01:17:00.975 --> 01:17:01.996
It makes me think about this again.

1378
01:17:02.336 --> 01:17:03.177
Yeah, that as well.

1379
01:17:03.217 --> 01:17:03.477
Yeah.

1380
01:17:03.917 --> 01:17:04.818
You've got to have culture.

1381
01:17:05.418 --> 01:17:11.222
And particularly in sports, you can have the most talent, but if they don't fit together as a team...

1382
01:17:13.214 --> 01:17:13.754
They're going to suck.

1383
01:17:13.874 --> 01:17:15.655
Is that what you found when you went into the Mavs originally?

1384
01:17:15.675 --> 01:17:16.015
Oh, yeah.

1385
01:17:16.335 --> 01:17:16.475
Yeah.

1386
01:17:16.515 --> 01:17:18.095
When I got there, nobody wanted to be there.

1387
01:17:19.496 --> 01:17:24.917
I mean, literally people in the office, people on the court, we were just a way station.

1388
01:17:24.957 --> 01:17:28.798
If you couldn't get a job with the Lakers or the Celtics or whoever, right?

1389
01:17:29.158 --> 01:17:29.418
Okay.

1390
01:17:29.438 --> 01:17:30.998
The Mavs will hire you and that's fine.

1391
01:17:31.358 --> 01:17:34.719
So when I got there, it was the most important thing that I focused on.

1392
01:17:34.979 --> 01:17:36.300
I sat there in front of the players.

1393
01:17:36.320 --> 01:17:37.060
I'm like, we're going to win.

1394
01:17:37.958 --> 01:17:39.220
And this train is speeding up.

1395
01:17:39.260 --> 01:17:40.161
It's internet time.

1396
01:17:40.221 --> 01:17:41.182
It's 2000, right?

1397
01:17:41.743 --> 01:17:43.945
And if you want to stay, let me know.

1398
01:17:44.306 --> 01:17:46.849
And if you don't want to stay, let me know and I'll trade you.

1399
01:17:47.409 --> 01:17:49.872
I got no problem with that because we're going to do things differently.

1400
01:17:50.313 --> 01:17:51.334
I expect you to win.

1401
01:17:51.534 --> 01:17:53.316
I'll give you the tools you need to win.

1402
01:17:53.657 --> 01:17:54.858
Like one of the things I did...

1403
01:17:56.480 --> 01:18:04.688
Like when I took over, we had a head coach and like three assistant coaches and they were responsible for all the training and player development.

1404
01:18:04.708 --> 01:18:06.730
And that's the way the entire NBA did it.

1405
01:18:07.271 --> 01:18:12.716
And we were literally spending more money on computer training and support than we were on player development.

1406
01:18:12.736 --> 01:18:14.618
And for players, we paid more than a million dollars.

1407
01:18:15.039 --> 01:18:16.841
So I'm like, this is the dumbest shit I've ever seen.

1408
01:18:17.381 --> 01:18:33.006
And so I asked our general manager and assistant general manager and coaches, I'm like, go find former Mavericks and I want you to bring them in and we're going to assign to each of them one player who has a similar skill set that they had when they were in the NBA and they're going to do nothing but work with them.

1409
01:18:33.626 --> 01:18:33.927
That's it.

1410
01:18:34.247 --> 01:18:35.107
Just work with them.

1411
01:18:36.529 --> 01:18:41.410
That made perfect sense to me because all these former players wanted to get in and we had to play them anything.

1412
01:18:41.430 --> 01:18:42.931
They just wanted to be part of the game again.

1413
01:18:43.511 --> 01:18:53.253
And now all of a sudden, all of our players had somebody focused on them and not only did it improve their skills, but it made them realize that the culture of this organization is to win.

1414
01:18:53.333 --> 01:18:55.454
And we will do whatever it takes to win.

1415
01:18:56.254 --> 01:18:57.615
And, you know, it paid off.

1416
01:18:57.655 --> 01:18:58.855
But the rest of the NBA?

1417
01:18:59.926 --> 01:19:00.607
Oh, my God.

1418
01:19:00.647 --> 01:19:01.247
They hated me.

1419
01:19:01.587 --> 01:19:02.148
They hated me.

1420
01:19:02.468 --> 01:19:03.669
I went out and bought a plane.

1421
01:19:04.169 --> 01:19:11.755
I spent about the same amount on a team plane because I'm like, we leave Oakland, California at 3 in the morning or whatever.

1422
01:19:12.196 --> 01:19:17.940
I don't want us flying on this little ratty plane that they rented or a typical commercial plane when your guy's 7.

1423
01:19:18.140 --> 01:19:19.401
What a guy, Sean Bradley, 7'6".

1424
01:19:20.602 --> 01:19:24.365
He's not, you know, fitting in a regular seat and he's making his living with his body.

1425
01:19:24.725 --> 01:19:24.925
Right.

1426
01:19:24.945 --> 01:19:29.328
So I bought a plane and I told I told the guys, OK, we're going to fuck with everybody.

1427
01:19:29.768 --> 01:19:34.351
I want you to tell everybody that there's a weight room on the plane, a steam room.

1428
01:19:34.371 --> 01:19:35.792
We don't have any of that shit.

1429
01:19:35.812 --> 01:19:35.992
Right.

1430
01:19:36.352 --> 01:19:47.420
And to this day, people ask me about the weight room that we had on the plane and just stuff like that, where it's not only is it effective and improves outcomes, but it sends a message.

1431
01:19:48.040 --> 01:19:50.522
That, hey, this is what we're trying to do.

1432
01:19:50.642 --> 01:19:51.523
This is our culture.

1433
01:19:51.883 --> 01:19:52.564
We're going to win.

1434
01:19:52.604 --> 01:19:53.664
We're going to support each other.

1435
01:19:53.825 --> 01:19:55.686
And I'm going to get you all the tools you need.

1436
01:19:56.126 --> 01:20:00.309
Like even things like a nutritionist or, you know, preparing food for them.

1437
01:20:01.190 --> 01:20:03.072
Things teams didn't do back then.

1438
01:20:04.161 --> 01:20:05.082
And it just made sense to me.

1439
01:20:05.122 --> 01:20:06.823
Did you see the culture changing of the Mavs?

1440
01:20:06.923 --> 01:20:07.704
Oh, like that.

1441
01:20:08.144 --> 01:20:08.825
It was quickly.

1442
01:20:09.105 --> 01:20:09.566
Oh, yeah.

1443
01:20:09.626 --> 01:20:11.848
We went, when I took over, we were 9-23.

1444
01:20:11.868 --> 01:20:13.869
What's that mean?

1445
01:20:14.050 --> 01:20:15.491
Nine wins and 23 losses.

1446
01:20:15.591 --> 01:20:15.971
Oh, damn.

1447
01:20:16.192 --> 01:20:16.472
Yeah.

1448
01:20:16.932 --> 01:20:21.416
And we finished the season, the next 50 games, we were 31-19.

1449
01:20:21.456 --> 01:20:21.576
Wow.

1450
01:20:21.596 --> 01:20:21.696
Yeah.

1451
01:20:24.161 --> 01:20:25.002
The next season.

1452
01:20:25.362 --> 01:20:26.844
No, we're talking about that season.

1453
01:20:26.904 --> 01:20:27.304
That season.

1454
01:20:27.324 --> 01:20:29.906
So when I took over in January, the season runs towards April.

1455
01:20:30.327 --> 01:20:33.130
When I took over, we had nine wins, 23 losses.

1456
01:20:33.630 --> 01:20:38.695
And for the remaining 50 games of that season, we won 31 of them, lost 19 of them.

1457
01:20:40.452 --> 01:20:45.276
Since you took over, the Mavericks had the second highest regular season winning percentage of any NBA team.

1458
01:20:45.436 --> 01:20:49.819
The team went from 39% win rate to almost 60% win rate under you.

1459
01:20:50.379 --> 01:20:53.842
The Mavericks made their first finals but lost to Miami Heat in 2006.

1460
01:20:53.862 --> 01:20:54.542
That was brutal.

1461
01:20:54.643 --> 01:20:54.863
Yep.

1462
01:20:55.563 --> 01:20:58.585
And then the Mavericks won the NBA championship in 2011.

1463
01:20:58.605 --> 01:20:59.366
Yes, sir.

1464
01:20:59.426 --> 01:21:00.607
And you were 53 years old.

1465
01:21:01.067 --> 01:21:02.588
And then you sold the majority ownership.

1466
01:21:02.608 --> 01:21:03.149
2023.

1467
01:21:03.169 --> 01:21:03.369
Yeah.

1468
01:21:04.930 --> 01:21:06.550
But you still have a significant stake.

1469
01:21:06.590 --> 01:21:06.970
27%, yeah.

1470
01:21:07.671 --> 01:21:15.972
I always find teams as like the great analogy for learning about how to build businesses because it is, there's a scoreboard and you get the scores back quick.

1471
01:21:16.032 --> 01:21:19.693
Whereas in business, there can be, it's kind of a bit more vague as to what's happened or the problem is.

1472
01:21:19.713 --> 01:21:21.613
Like there's always a new season in sports.

1473
01:21:21.933 --> 01:21:25.394
You can make trades, you can cut people, you know, replace them.

1474
01:21:25.994 --> 01:21:28.474
In business, it's 24-7 by 365.

1475
01:21:28.554 --> 01:21:33.435
It's the ultimate sport, which is, you know, if you have competitive juices, you know,

1476
01:21:33.655 --> 01:21:36.236
Business is the ultimate way to fill that need.

1477
01:21:36.497 --> 01:21:43.140
Is there anything else you learned from Mavericks, the maths that might be applicable to building businesses or hiring teams or creating teams?

1478
01:21:43.961 --> 01:21:48.323
I think you have to be innovative because it's so competitive.

1479
01:21:49.003 --> 01:21:51.965
Things like, you know, using statistics

1480
01:21:54.342 --> 01:21:54.923
Quick story.

1481
01:21:55.763 --> 01:22:02.968
When I was at Indiana, I snuck into the MBA program when I got there as an 18-year-old, and I started taking MBA classes.

1482
01:22:02.988 --> 01:22:07.972
And the first MBA class I snuck into was a statistics class taught by a guy named Wayne Winston.

1483
01:22:08.132 --> 01:22:15.017
But fast forward six months after I bought the Mavs, whatever it was, and I'm watching Jeopardy on television.

1484
01:22:15.037 --> 01:22:15.597
Wow.

1485
01:22:15.697 --> 01:22:17.578
And he's on there killing it, right?

1486
01:22:17.698 --> 01:22:18.179
Killing it.

1487
01:22:18.539 --> 01:22:21.401
And then weeks later, I'm at Indianapolis.

1488
01:22:21.441 --> 01:22:22.922
We're playing the Indiana Pacers.

1489
01:22:23.242 --> 01:22:25.664
And I hear, Mark, Mark, Mark from the crowd.

1490
01:22:25.804 --> 01:22:31.487
And it's like, if I hadn't watched him on Jeopardy, I wouldn't have recognized him as my professor from when I was 18 years old.

1491
01:22:32.188 --> 01:22:33.248
And we started talking.

1492
01:22:33.569 --> 01:22:36.671
And he started telling me about what he was doing with statistics for sports.

1493
01:22:37.311 --> 01:22:42.896
And I hired him on the spot, and he became the first analytics person in the NBA full-time.

1494
01:22:43.216 --> 01:22:49.161
And that helped us grow our way into winning games and winning championships or a championship.

1495
01:22:49.462 --> 01:22:55.727
And the point, to your question, is you have to keep on innovating in sports like all businesses.

1496
01:22:55.747 --> 01:22:57.309
You can't rest on your laurels.

1497
01:22:57.329 --> 01:22:57.629
Yeah.

1498
01:22:57.969 --> 01:23:04.553
People don't always like the idea of data and statistics because it seems to be a threat against their instinct and judgment and creativity.

1499
01:23:04.613 --> 01:23:05.134
No, it's true.

1500
01:23:05.174 --> 01:23:06.975
Like the eye test versus the numbers.

1501
01:23:07.015 --> 01:23:07.775
And you have to do both.

1502
01:23:08.416 --> 01:23:10.997
You know, you can't exclude one or the other.

1503
01:23:11.017 --> 01:23:16.581
I mean, there are some players that just shoot ugly, don't make as many shots.

1504
01:23:17.021 --> 01:23:22.805
But in aggregate, they impact winning a game and winning championships more than the guys who score 25 points.

1505
01:23:23.605 --> 01:23:23.926
Tiffany.

1506
01:23:24.826 --> 01:23:25.066
Uh-oh.

1507
01:23:25.687 --> 01:23:26.067
Yeah.

1508
01:23:26.890 --> 01:23:27.691
I spoke to Tiffany.

1509
01:23:27.871 --> 01:23:28.091
No.

1510
01:23:28.272 --> 01:23:28.932
I'm joking.

1511
01:23:28.972 --> 01:23:29.633
I didn't really.

1512
01:23:29.773 --> 01:23:30.154
Oh, okay.

1513
01:23:30.254 --> 01:23:34.739
I mean, it wouldn't be bad, but I was just like, okay, I'm surprised she talked to you.

1514
01:23:34.759 --> 01:23:36.360
You nearly choked on your drink.

1515
01:23:37.201 --> 01:23:38.403
Maybe I should have.

1516
01:23:38.743 --> 01:23:41.346
Tiffany, you met Tiffany, I think in a gym when you were 39.

1517
01:23:41.606 --> 01:23:42.707
Yeah, late 30s, let's say, yeah.

1518
01:23:42.968 --> 01:23:43.608
You got married?

1519
01:23:44.229 --> 01:23:45.370
In 2002, so I was 44.

1520
01:23:45.390 --> 01:23:45.450
44.

1521
01:23:47.032 --> 01:23:48.153
Three kids so far.

1522
01:23:48.613 --> 01:23:49.353
So far.

1523
01:23:50.434 --> 01:23:51.114
No, I got snipped.

1524
01:23:51.554 --> 01:23:52.415
Oh, okay.

1525
01:23:52.435 --> 01:23:53.035
So total.

1526
01:23:53.455 --> 01:23:57.117
How does that feed into everything we've talked about around happiness and meaning and purpose and success?

1527
01:23:57.417 --> 01:23:58.478
Oh, it supersedes everything.

1528
01:23:58.738 --> 01:23:58.958
Really?

1529
01:23:59.158 --> 01:23:59.378
Yeah.

1530
01:23:59.438 --> 01:24:04.481
I mean, you've got one part of my brain that is like business, business, business, business, you know, compete, compete, compete.

1531
01:24:04.901 --> 01:24:09.764
And then you've got the better part of me that's my kids, my kids, my kids, and my wife.

1532
01:24:10.104 --> 01:24:13.986
And they've just changed me for the better in a million ways I can't even describe.

1533
01:24:14.006 --> 01:24:14.506
Yeah.

1534
01:24:14.746 --> 01:24:18.848
And there's nothing, you know, more important to me.

1535
01:24:19.248 --> 01:24:19.508
Nothing.

1536
01:24:19.548 --> 01:24:24.431
I may not be great as a dad, don't tell you, you know, but, or a husband, but I do my best.

1537
01:24:25.207 --> 01:24:26.909
Why is that so important?

1538
01:24:26.929 --> 01:24:30.632
So many of us sacrifice relationships in the pursuit of... And I'm not saying I did, right?

1539
01:24:30.652 --> 01:24:35.937
I mean, like, when I had micro solutions, I was dating a woman and it was like, I mean, I was on a mission.

1540
01:24:36.217 --> 01:24:43.564
I didn't settle down immediately in terms of, you know, family in front of business, but I got to that point.

1541
01:24:43.985 --> 01:24:46.267
In hindsight, do you think it would have been possible to do both at the same time?

1542
01:24:46.647 --> 01:24:47.688
Not as well as I did it.

1543
01:24:49.209 --> 01:24:50.890
And I regret that in a lot of ways.

1544
01:24:51.671 --> 01:24:52.551
Which part?

1545
01:24:52.571 --> 01:24:58.976
The fact that I didn't do as many of the little events with my kids as I probably should have.

1546
01:24:59.537 --> 01:25:06.261
I would tell myself, they're too young to remember, you know, and so I would go do what I needed to do with business.

1547
01:25:07.642 --> 01:25:09.544
But in hindsight, I probably would have done more of that.

1548
01:25:09.564 --> 01:25:09.664
Yeah.

1549
01:25:09.964 --> 01:25:11.144
Where does that regret come from?

1550
01:25:11.245 --> 01:25:13.625
Does that come from you or does that come from them?

1551
01:25:13.865 --> 01:25:16.666
No, I mean, they remind me of certain things for sure.

1552
01:25:16.747 --> 01:25:20.428
But I think it's from me, you know, just in hindsight.

1553
01:25:20.648 --> 01:25:22.889
And, you know, it took me a while to get there.

1554
01:25:22.949 --> 01:25:26.010
But that's why I left Shark Tank, why I sold the maps or a big part of it.

1555
01:25:26.650 --> 01:25:27.650
I ask this for my own reasons.

1556
01:25:28.131 --> 01:25:31.032
Obviously, I'm in the season of life where I'm about to have kids hopefully touch wood.

1557
01:25:31.512 --> 01:25:35.233
And I hear over and over again exactly what you've just said from successful people.

1558
01:25:35.653 --> 01:25:36.654
So when I ask, where does it come from?

1559
01:25:36.694 --> 01:25:39.154
I'm like, does it feedback the kids give you when they grow up?

1560
01:25:39.214 --> 01:25:40.775
Or is it just a feeling you have?

1561
01:25:40.935 --> 01:25:41.135
Both.

1562
01:25:41.455 --> 01:25:42.095
Both, yeah.

1563
01:25:42.336 --> 01:25:43.916
I mean, because teenagers are teenagers.

1564
01:25:44.336 --> 01:25:48.318
I mean, I'll never forget when my oldest, like she was 12 years old, I was saying something to her.

1565
01:25:48.638 --> 01:25:48.978
She was like,

1566
01:25:52.050 --> 01:25:53.352
And it's different for them, right?

1567
01:25:53.392 --> 01:25:55.816
I feel bad sometimes because they're under a spotlight.

1568
01:25:55.856 --> 01:26:05.729
And, you know, I would always, with each of them over and over, I would have the conversation, look, if you go out and do something, or if one of your friends goes out and does something stupid, mm-hmm.

1569
01:26:07.619 --> 01:26:08.720
your friend did something stupid.

1570
01:26:09.500 --> 01:26:15.845
If you do something stupid, it's on the front page of the paper and every, you know, social media feed around the world.

1571
01:26:16.346 --> 01:26:19.368
And so I think that puts some unfair pressure on them.

1572
01:26:19.968 --> 01:26:21.730
But I mean, I think they've adapted.

1573
01:26:21.750 --> 01:26:22.490
They're great kids.

1574
01:26:22.550 --> 01:26:23.031
Don't give me a right.

1575
01:26:23.051 --> 01:26:24.972
They are amazing, amazing kids.

1576
01:26:25.673 --> 01:26:31.197
And, you know, I can still tell you with absolute, certainly that my favorite word in the world is dad.

1577
01:26:31.757 --> 01:26:32.618
And they know I'm a crier.

1578
01:26:34.382 --> 01:26:35.803
I can see it gets you emotional just saying it.

1579
01:26:35.843 --> 01:26:36.143
Yeah.

1580
01:26:36.543 --> 01:26:39.905
Yeah, that's like, that means a lot to me.

1581
01:26:40.445 --> 01:26:40.625
Why?

1582
01:26:42.986 --> 01:26:46.808
You know, as you get older, you start to recognize your mortality.

1583
01:26:47.968 --> 01:26:54.751
And like with my parents being gone, I have their pictures, you know, in my closet.

1584
01:26:54.911 --> 01:26:57.333
And I say hi to them every morning and every night.

1585
01:26:58.273 --> 01:27:00.594
And I want my kids to be the same way after I'm gone.

1586
01:27:01.354 --> 01:27:02.475
I want them to be proud of me.

1587
01:27:03.812 --> 01:27:08.673
I want them to, you know, remember me positively as much as possible.

1588
01:27:08.773 --> 01:27:13.775
And I want them to carry on anything that, you know, we all can do together.

1589
01:27:17.016 --> 01:27:17.996
I have no doubt they will be.

1590
01:27:18.656 --> 01:27:19.636
I have no doubt they are.

1591
01:27:20.077 --> 01:27:20.497
Who knows?

1592
01:27:21.737 --> 01:27:22.177
Who knows?

1593
01:27:22.197 --> 01:27:23.558
They're at that age where we can't have that.

1594
01:27:23.758 --> 01:27:25.198
We don't have that conversation yet.

1595
01:27:26.593 --> 01:27:30.574
As you look forward, Mark, you've talked about your mortality.

1596
01:27:30.594 --> 01:27:36.316
You've talked about leaving Shark Tank, which I've just become a guest shark on the show.

1597
01:27:36.336 --> 01:27:36.416
Yes.

1598
01:27:36.696 --> 01:27:37.157
Unfillable shoes.

1599
01:27:37.177 --> 01:27:37.917
They told me you were great.

1600
01:27:37.957 --> 01:27:38.717
Yeah, I'm good.

1601
01:27:39.177 --> 01:27:39.978
Thank you.

1602
01:27:40.178 --> 01:27:40.898
You're 68 now.

1603
01:27:41.498 --> 01:27:42.438
Yeah, no, 48.

1604
01:27:43.939 --> 01:27:45.019
You look 48, to be fair.

1605
01:27:45.059 --> 01:27:45.499
I appreciate it.

1606
01:27:45.519 --> 01:27:45.980
Thank you.

1607
01:27:46.100 --> 01:27:47.500
But you play a lot of sports still, right?

1608
01:27:47.520 --> 01:27:49.861
So I see you playing basketball and stuff like that.

1609
01:27:50.121 --> 01:27:52.242
What do you want to accomplish in this next season of your career?

1610
01:27:52.262 --> 01:27:52.762
Yeah.

1611
01:27:53.120 --> 01:27:56.723
Cost Plus Drugs is this huge... Yeah, Cost Plus Drugs, obviously, I want to change healthcare in America.

1612
01:27:56.863 --> 01:27:57.403
It's a mess.

1613
01:27:57.824 --> 01:28:01.407
And, you know, it was great when, with the Mavs, someone would say, oh, great game or whatever.

1614
01:28:01.527 --> 01:28:09.693
But when somebody walks up to me now and says, yeah, I got my drug from CostPlusDrugs.com, it saves me, you know, $1,000 a month, and now I can afford them.

1615
01:28:10.193 --> 01:28:10.934
I mean, that's...

1616
01:28:10.954 --> 01:28:11.975
It's really something, Mark.

1617
01:28:12.015 --> 01:28:12.555
It's crazy.

1618
01:28:12.755 --> 01:28:16.659
It's crazy that someone like you would commit your life to this, because...

1619
01:28:17.487 --> 01:28:25.189
Regardless of what you've just described there, I think personally the biggest thing you're doing is just shining a massive light on an issue that doesn't want a light on it.

1620
01:28:25.489 --> 01:28:26.209
Oh, and I'll fix it.

1621
01:28:26.689 --> 01:28:32.590
I promise you I will fix it because there are three basically big companies that dominate all of healthcare.

1622
01:28:33.010 --> 01:28:34.871
You know, hundreds of billions in sales.

1623
01:28:35.291 --> 01:28:35.791
It's crazy.

1624
01:28:36.591 --> 01:28:41.792
And you've got 67% of people who get health insurance from their employer.

1625
01:28:41.812 --> 01:28:42.372
Yeah.

1626
01:28:42.432 --> 01:28:44.134
get it through an employer who's self-insured.

1627
01:28:44.394 --> 01:28:54.983
And I bring that up because that means they take all the responsibility for the bills, that employer does, which means it's their responsibility and who they hire to do all their insurance and take care of all that stuff.

1628
01:28:55.363 --> 01:28:59.647
And so I just go door to door with these CEOs and I just give them shit left and right.

1629
01:28:59.967 --> 01:29:06.493
And if I can get them to do the right thing to save themselves money and improve the health of their employees and families,

1630
01:29:08.194 --> 01:29:11.756
I'll get a win there and I'll completely change healthcare in this country.

1631
01:29:11.776 --> 01:29:12.736
And that's the mission.

1632
01:29:13.037 --> 01:29:16.058
You and Trump have had a bit of an interesting relationship, rollercoaster relationship.

1633
01:29:16.178 --> 01:29:19.460
But I saw you stood next to him talking about this initiative recently.

1634
01:29:19.620 --> 01:29:20.581
Trump Rex, yeah.

1635
01:29:20.681 --> 01:29:26.304
Look, anything that makes people healthier and saves them money on their healthcare, that's fine by me.

1636
01:29:26.444 --> 01:29:26.864
I don't care.

1637
01:29:27.284 --> 01:29:28.005
You can give me some shit.

1638
01:29:28.025 --> 01:29:28.145
Yeah.

1639
01:29:29.112 --> 01:29:29.572
I don't care.

1640
01:29:30.052 --> 01:29:31.613
You know, the goal is the goal.

1641
01:29:32.173 --> 01:29:37.616
And the goal is to change health care in this country so that it is what it is, truly a right.

1642
01:29:38.336 --> 01:29:46.840
And in order to do that, we're going to have to, you know, make it so that those big companies no longer dominate the industry.

1643
01:29:47.904 --> 01:29:52.187
We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves the question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for.

1644
01:29:52.407 --> 01:29:52.668
Okay.

1645
01:29:52.908 --> 01:29:54.109
And I only get to read it when I open the book.

1646
01:29:54.949 --> 01:29:58.812
The question left for you is, this is a fucking unbelievable, it's an interesting one.

1647
01:29:59.393 --> 01:30:02.175
What's the hardest question you weren't asked?

1648
01:30:02.495 --> 01:30:04.616
What's the hardest question I wasn't asked?

1649
01:30:05.777 --> 01:30:07.238
I'm not going to ask you the question, just for the record.

1650
01:30:08.339 --> 01:30:15.845
I mean, the family questions you asked, I mean, what hits you most emotionally effectively is the hardest questions that I don't get asked.

1651
01:30:16.794 --> 01:30:17.574
Mark, thank you so much.

1652
01:30:17.594 --> 01:30:38.285
Thank you for many reasons, for being a personal inspiration to me, because I remember multiple times where I stumbled across your life story or your work or your ideas at a critical moment that either gave me a bit more belief, that gave me some patience, that gave me some wisdom, but also, you know, the other layer of context I now have is just having spent some time with you as a person.

1653
01:30:38.365 --> 01:30:43.787
And one of the real things outside of the wisdom that I come away with and outside of the sense of purpose and family is...

1654
01:30:44.928 --> 01:30:52.871
the realization that you can be both very, very successful and you can be a good person and a happy person and a positive person.

1655
01:30:52.891 --> 01:30:53.651
Let's not go too far.

1656
01:30:53.871 --> 01:30:54.972
No, but that's how you feel.

1657
01:30:55.012 --> 01:30:55.812
That's the energy you have.

1658
01:30:55.832 --> 01:30:59.153
And obviously I've sat here with 700 people, so you get to see lots of things.

1659
01:30:59.173 --> 01:31:00.954
So it's been a real pleasure and thank you for the inspiration.

1660
01:31:01.134 --> 01:31:01.434
Thank you.

1661
01:31:01.654 --> 01:31:02.374
Thank you, Stephen.

1662
01:31:02.394 --> 01:31:02.995
I really enjoyed it.

1663
01:31:03.015 --> 01:31:03.335
It was great.

1664
01:31:03.395 --> 01:31:03.755
Amazing.

1665
01:31:03.795 --> 01:31:04.095
Thank you.