WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.558 --> 00:00:03.919 A listener production. 2 00:00:04.940 --> 00:00:05.440 A warning. 3 00:00:05.940 --> 00:00:11.665 This episode contains descriptions of violent crime and suicidal ideation. 4 00:00:12.265 --> 00:00:13.766 Please listen with care. 5 00:00:14.747 --> 00:00:19.190 They call themselves outlaw motorcycle gangs for a particular reason, because they are outlaws. 6 00:00:19.911 --> 00:00:31.319 They have the outlaw appearance of, you know, just good blokes, just knock-a-bound blokes who, you know, drive motorbikes and hang out together, where, in fact, they are one of the best organised criminal gangs on the planet. 7 00:00:32.275 --> 00:00:44.938 Australia's outlaw motorcycle gangs have long cast a shadow over the country's criminal landscape, marked by violent turf wars, drug trafficking and a fiercely guarded code of loyalty. 8 00:00:46.019 --> 00:00:50.160 The prospects are those who will carry guns for the club members. 9 00:00:50.660 --> 00:00:54.141 They will run, you know, shipment of drugs from one side of the city to another. 10 00:00:55.021 --> 00:00:59.542 And often they're deliberately set up so that they will attract police attention. 11 00:01:00.678 --> 00:01:03.700 If they're arrested, then they'll be judged on how well they shut up. 12 00:01:04.221 --> 00:01:05.722 Just shut their mouths, they say nothing. 13 00:01:06.262 --> 00:01:07.303 That proves their word. 14 00:01:08.144 --> 00:01:23.576 Former detective Keith Banks spent three years leading the outlaw motorcycle gang intelligence section with Queensland Police, pursuing some of the most notorious networks, including the Hells Angels, Rebels and Black U-Lands. 15 00:01:24.397 --> 00:01:28.420 There's an old saying that you don't catch crooks in bingo halls, you meet them in pubs. 16 00:01:29.292 --> 00:01:34.593 We spent a fair bit of time drinking, getting to know people, to just get snippets. 17 00:01:35.293 --> 00:01:39.494 Intelligence analysis is just getting snippets of information and then trying to fit them together. 18 00:01:39.934 --> 00:01:41.394 It's like a giant jigsaw puzzle. 19 00:01:42.314 --> 00:01:57.297 In today's episode, get an insight into what it's like to come face-to-face with these gangs, the intelligence work behind the scenes, and the challenges of dealing with some of Australia's most dangerous criminal organisations. 20 00:01:58.057 --> 00:02:05.425 Spoke to the president, I said, look, this is who I am, this is what I do, I understand what you guys are doing, however, the cops have got a job to do. 21 00:02:05.905 --> 00:02:09.369 And I said, I don't want to see it all go badly here, because it's got the potential to. 22 00:02:09.409 --> 00:02:13.173 And he said, you're the first deaf and cop that I'm talking to that's got some sense. 23 00:02:13.213 --> 00:02:14.394 And I said, well, I appreciate that, mate. 24 00:02:15.273 --> 00:02:30.664 Keith also takes us through what it was like to work in the era of corrupt policeman Tony Murphy and a group known as the Rat Pack, a crew whose names later became synonymous with corruption within Queensland police. 25 00:02:31.425 --> 00:02:34.867 And I remember a senior constable I was working with telling me about Murphy. 26 00:02:35.848 --> 00:02:39.030 It was bizarre because it was one o'clock in the morning or around me. 27 00:02:39.750 --> 00:02:43.213 And suddenly he lowered his voice as if we'd be overheard from someone. 28 00:02:43.895 --> 00:02:46.636 about this guy Murphy, who was just feared. 29 00:02:46.936 --> 00:02:50.698 He was rumoured to have killed two people that was off the books. 30 00:02:51.198 --> 00:02:53.759 He was rumoured to have done all various things. 31 00:02:54.339 --> 00:02:56.120 He was just terrifying. 32 00:02:58.165 --> 00:03:12.873 I'm former police officer Brent Sanders, and for the past 25 years, I've dedicated myself to sharing what I've learned on the force to the Australian public, so they can better protect themselves from falling victim to crime. 33 00:03:13.893 --> 00:03:30.527 So with the help of some of the most respected current and former detectives and high-ranking law enforcement agents, we're going to pull back the curtain on what life is like on the force and what they've learned about how crime and criminals really work. 34 00:03:31.527 --> 00:03:35.831 These are real stories from real detectives. 35 00:03:38.720 --> 00:03:45.686 Keith, during your time policing in Queensland over two decades, at one point you led the Bikie Gang Intelligence section. 36 00:03:46.187 --> 00:03:55.355 For three years, you worked closely with members of notorious outlaw motorcycle gangs such as the Rebels, the Black Oolans and Hells Angels, amongst others. 37 00:03:56.076 --> 00:04:02.522 Can I take you back to that time, Keith, and discuss what that was like and your involvement in those organisations? 38 00:04:03.290 --> 00:04:10.391 Yeah, that was in the days of the Bureau of Criminal Intelligence and each police force had its own BCI around Australia. 39 00:04:11.331 --> 00:04:14.932 And all intelligence was centralised in Canberra with the Australian BCI. 40 00:04:15.552 --> 00:04:19.113 So within the BCI office, there were a number of desks. 41 00:04:19.253 --> 00:04:28.294 There were Italian organised crime, pedophilia, drug deals, you know, drug dealing in certain sectors, etc., painters and dockers. 42 00:04:28.694 --> 00:04:32.155 And the other desk was called wing clipping, so the bikey desk. 43 00:04:32.868 --> 00:04:45.653 Wing clipping, the term originated from, I think the Hells Angels still do have, or their famous logo is a flame in the back of the skull, and bikies adorn their vests with wings of various things. 44 00:04:45.974 --> 00:04:50.155 So obviously some wit came up with the idea that we'd clip their wings. 45 00:04:50.736 --> 00:05:00.860 So when I moved from the tactical team into the VCI, did my surveillance course, and I sort of weren't betrayed in the surveillance area because we ran surveillance teams as well. 46 00:05:01.690 --> 00:05:08.696 And then I think within maybe a couple of months, the boss spoke to me and asked me if I was interested in taking over the wind clipping desk. 47 00:05:09.637 --> 00:05:19.525 And I'd actually had involvement with bikey gangs, particularly the Black Yulans at that stage, which was the biggest criminal, well, most vocal gang in Queensland. 48 00:05:20.247 --> 00:05:25.549 And I'd had experience with them in the task force before the tactical world as a detective, etc. 49 00:05:25.929 --> 00:05:29.530 Because we arrested a number of bikies for various criminal activities. 50 00:05:30.110 --> 00:05:42.314 So I was intrigued and particularly given, I think, about two or three years before that, my tactical team had been involved in a raid on the Fintz motorcycle gang in Coomera on the Gold Coast. 51 00:05:43.034 --> 00:05:44.895 And the threat was quite substantial. 52 00:05:45.075 --> 00:05:51.038 And we then engaged the use of nine squadron, the RAAF, Iroquois helicopters. 53 00:05:51.659 --> 00:05:54.320 So we flew in, again, you know, boys' own stuff. 54 00:05:54.420 --> 00:05:55.241 Flew in at dawn. 55 00:05:55.621 --> 00:06:02.365 Didn't have the Flight of the Valkyries playing, but, you know, flew in at dawn in five choppers and hit the clubhouse and the surrounds. 56 00:06:02.525 --> 00:06:04.446 And, you know, these guys came out. 57 00:06:04.466 --> 00:06:07.327 They weren't armed or they didn't bring any weapons with them. 58 00:06:08.308 --> 00:06:08.968 Good thing to them. 59 00:06:09.509 --> 00:06:11.850 And so we landed, took control and flew out again. 60 00:06:12.683 --> 00:06:14.526 I'd arrested bikies variously. 61 00:06:14.586 --> 00:06:16.228 You know, I'd had experiences with them. 62 00:06:16.989 --> 00:06:17.850 I knew some of them. 63 00:06:18.571 --> 00:06:22.096 When I say personally, I knew some of them from an occupational perspective. 64 00:06:22.918 --> 00:06:26.442 And I was intrigued by the entire culture of outlaw motorcycle gangs. 65 00:06:27.315 --> 00:06:29.056 So I said yes, resounding yes. 66 00:06:29.777 --> 00:06:32.339 And I started looking at all the intelligence files we had. 67 00:06:32.379 --> 00:06:36.742 And gathering intel in those days was not a technology-based role. 68 00:06:37.003 --> 00:06:52.335 It was more about assessing what was going on, speaking to police on the ground, speaking to detectives who'd arrested either members of gangs or prospects of gangs or associates of gangs, and getting as much connection between people as you could. 69 00:06:52.415 --> 00:06:55.137 So there's a whole science behind intelligence analysis. 70 00:06:55.773 --> 00:07:01.099 You gather facts, you gather reports, you draw an inference based on what you see. 71 00:07:01.119 --> 00:07:07.405 So a trained intelligence analyst will be able to look at various factors and draw together a conclusion or what we call an inference. 72 00:07:08.046 --> 00:07:16.115 So you draw an inference and then that becomes a premise later and then that can be the cornerstone of a criminal investigation or arrest team. 73 00:07:17.193 --> 00:07:33.280 In essence, it's a bit of a best-guess thing as well, because you may have information that someone's acting in a certain way, and as a good example, there was a civilian employee at police headquarters who was working in the Information Bureau. 74 00:07:33.620 --> 00:07:35.601 I won't identify their gender, I'll call them they. 75 00:07:36.361 --> 00:07:42.784 That person had been put in through that public service by a patched member of the Black Units. 76 00:07:44.002 --> 00:07:51.827 So they had worked their way through as a public servant into the information section, which was where all classified police documentation was kept. 77 00:07:52.948 --> 00:07:54.088 We started working on that. 78 00:07:54.108 --> 00:08:03.054 We had some information that may be the case, and then we went through the records of everybody in that section, their length of tenure, their associates, their behaviours. 79 00:08:03.414 --> 00:08:13.761 So it sounds a little bit big brotherish, but it was a defined method of investigation to gather enough intelligence to create an inference on the premise that this person was involved. 80 00:08:14.558 --> 00:08:15.079 And they were. 81 00:08:15.459 --> 00:08:20.603 They had been placed there deliberately in what we call, and you'd be familiar with the term, clean skin. 82 00:08:21.404 --> 00:08:24.146 So a clean skin is someone with no criminal record at all. 83 00:08:24.807 --> 00:08:27.128 This person had been put in there for that specific purpose. 84 00:08:27.929 --> 00:08:41.060 It then became apparent to us a couple of years down the track of it that bikie gangs were also recruiting clean skin young men particularly and having them apply for the police force. 85 00:08:42.045 --> 00:08:51.053 putting their own mould in to the police force with the objective of having them reach certain ranks where they could be very, very helpful to a criminal organisation. 86 00:08:51.753 --> 00:08:56.137 So I used to laugh at people who would tell me that, you know, not all bikies are bad. 87 00:08:56.197 --> 00:09:02.462 They donate toys once a year to the children's hospital and, you know, they're just misunderstood guys who like to ride around in motorbikes. 88 00:09:03.143 --> 00:09:04.744 And it's far from it. 89 00:09:05.626 --> 00:09:12.829 The entire culture of OMGs is that you start hanging around, literally, people who are patched members. 90 00:09:12.869 --> 00:09:15.651 And patched members are those who have the top rocker. 91 00:09:16.711 --> 00:09:18.252 Let's say, make it easy, the Hells Angels. 92 00:09:18.872 --> 00:09:24.195 And the bottom rocker is the chapter they're located in, and let's say Sydney or Mount George or something. 93 00:09:24.815 --> 00:09:29.437 And in the middle is the club logo, and the Hells Angels have the flaming skull. 94 00:09:30.298 --> 00:09:35.080 Now, in order to become patched, you need to prove your loyalty and your trustworthiness. 95 00:09:36.211 --> 00:09:36.791 through the club. 96 00:09:37.752 --> 00:09:43.615 And the club will start you, or they'll start, I suppose, identifying people who hang around the club. 97 00:09:43.935 --> 00:09:45.235 And they're literally called hangarounds. 98 00:09:45.736 --> 00:09:47.116 They put seconds of thought into these things. 99 00:09:47.657 --> 00:09:51.158 And the hangaround is the one that will go on rides with them. 100 00:09:51.178 --> 00:09:52.219 They'll do all the shit with it. 101 00:09:52.875 --> 00:09:54.356 they will organise things for them. 102 00:09:54.376 --> 00:09:57.019 They can then work their way into becoming a prospect. 103 00:09:57.659 --> 00:10:12.172 And a prospect, if you see a patch member or you see a bike gang riding, you'll see that some of them don't have the centrepiece, so that the floating skull or the logo of the club, they simply have the top locker and the bottom locker. 104 00:10:13.013 --> 00:10:13.674 They're prospects. 105 00:10:14.154 --> 00:10:15.555 They haven't yet proven themselves. 106 00:10:15.595 --> 00:10:19.619 They haven't yet shown that they're capable of being a patch member. 107 00:10:20.618 --> 00:10:26.183 They do even more shit work, to use the term, than the hangarounds do. 108 00:10:26.623 --> 00:10:31.167 The prospects are those who will carry guns for the club members. 109 00:10:31.507 --> 00:10:33.229 They'll carry drugs for the club members. 110 00:10:33.709 --> 00:10:38.373 They will run a packet of, you know, shipment of drugs from one side of the city to another. 111 00:10:39.194 --> 00:10:41.255 And often they're tested this way. 112 00:10:41.275 --> 00:10:45.179 They're deliberately set up so that they will attract police attention. 113 00:10:46.049 --> 00:10:50.232 If they're arrested, then they'll be judged on how well they show up. 114 00:10:50.252 --> 00:10:51.913 They just shut their mouths, they say nothing. 115 00:10:52.333 --> 00:10:53.374 That proves their worth. 116 00:10:54.195 --> 00:10:55.276 It's a twofold thing. 117 00:10:55.316 --> 00:11:04.162 It proves their worth to the club, and it also eliminates undercover police, because police aren't permitted unless there's certain circumstances to commit a criminal act. 118 00:11:05.163 --> 00:11:06.463 So it's a way to scream that out. 119 00:11:06.684 --> 00:11:07.584 It doesn't always work. 120 00:11:08.085 --> 00:11:12.428 Particularly in the USA, there have been some fantastic undercover operations where... 121 00:11:13.088 --> 00:11:21.938 ATF agents and FBI agents and police agents have actually infiltrated the Hells Angels and become patch members and become sergeants in arms. 122 00:11:23.140 --> 00:11:26.163 So it's a really interesting role over there. 123 00:11:26.684 --> 00:11:33.472 But the clubs themselves, they call themselves outlaw motorcycle gangs for a particular reason, because they are outlaws. 124 00:11:34.413 --> 00:11:44.839 They refuse to follow convention, they refuse to obey the law, and within those clubs there is always a cadre of organised criminals. 125 00:11:45.979 --> 00:11:58.206 So they have the outward appearance of, you know, just good blokes, just knock-a-bound blokes who, you know, drive motorbikes and hang out together, where in fact they are one of the best organised criminal gangs on the planet. 126 00:11:59.492 --> 00:12:05.878 When I was working in that area, I think the Canadians, yeah, it was the Canadians, who had the risk factors of organised crime. 127 00:12:06.478 --> 00:12:10.922 The mafia, we're all familiar with the mafia, that was ranked as the number two criminal threat. 128 00:12:11.923 --> 00:12:19.069 The top criminal threat were outlaw motorcycle gangs because they had the opportunity, they still do them, they go on things called runs. 129 00:12:20.563 --> 00:12:23.026 So it'll be a compulsory run. 130 00:12:23.126 --> 00:12:32.979 So you will have to turn up the clubhouse with your bike, load your swag and whatever on the back, and they will ride from, let's make it up, Melbourne to Perth on an organised run. 131 00:12:34.055 --> 00:12:43.961 What they say is that's just all of us getting together, meeting up with our brothers in other states and having drinks and bringing in strippers and just having a good time and just meeting. 132 00:12:44.521 --> 00:12:56.868 When in fact, the sole purpose or the underlying purpose of a run is to meet and talk about drug territory, talk about channels of distribution, talk about the methods of either cooking or importation. 133 00:12:57.709 --> 00:13:01.271 And that happens, I think a run would probably happen twice a year. 134 00:13:02.051 --> 00:13:03.495 So we were aware of all of that. 135 00:13:04.216 --> 00:13:12.395 The other interesting thing for me was that anybody who looks from the outside, I suppose, or watches something like Sons of Aniky, which I quite like, 136 00:13:12.980 --> 00:13:17.763 This whole mythology that patch members are brothers for life and they'll never turn on each other. 137 00:13:18.483 --> 00:13:20.705 And that's just completely far from the truth. 138 00:13:21.645 --> 00:13:29.691 There were a couple of situations where I recruited, I suppose, two patched members from two different clubs. 139 00:13:29.751 --> 00:13:35.074 And I won't identify the clubs because even all these years later, revenge is at the forefront of minds of Vikings. 140 00:13:35.654 --> 00:13:37.375 These two guys were patched. 141 00:13:37.696 --> 00:13:39.116 One had been in a club for three years. 142 00:13:39.136 --> 00:13:41.538 The other had been, from memory, around 11 years. 143 00:13:42.342 --> 00:13:44.304 and they'd been screwed over by the club. 144 00:13:44.544 --> 00:13:50.969 They'd had their bikes taken, they'd been bashed on the word of someone else that accused them of disloyalty. 145 00:13:51.529 --> 00:14:00.736 So within a bikie club, there are all these, just like any other organisation, I suppose, there's all these political movements and backstabbing and power plays and whatever. 146 00:14:01.376 --> 00:14:10.043 So they'd been treated pretty badly and they rolled over, and I debriefed them over a course of weeks, and I gained incredibly valuable intelligence about it. 147 00:14:10.830 --> 00:14:21.081 what the alliances were between clubs, who was the mover, who was the shaker, who was actually calling the plays, and criminal activities that they were up to. 148 00:14:21.742 --> 00:14:26.588 And I'm not talking about just, you know, going out and drink driving or stealing something from DJs. 149 00:14:26.908 --> 00:14:31.333 These were organised drug runs, and they made a fortune. 150 00:14:32.621 --> 00:14:37.983 One of the things that they would do quite effectively in those days was each club would run a rock concert. 151 00:14:38.343 --> 00:14:42.525 So the Hells Angels ran the famous rock concert at Bordford in Victoria every year. 152 00:14:43.585 --> 00:14:53.229 They would declare a certain amount of tickets had been sold and probably overstate that by 25,000 tickets, I guess, and then launder cash through that. 153 00:14:53.409 --> 00:15:01.772 It's a beautiful way to launder drug money because long before mobile phones and QR codes and internet banking existed, 154 00:15:02.296 --> 00:15:03.176 It was all about cash. 155 00:15:03.837 --> 00:15:05.898 So the way to launder it was to hold a rock concert. 156 00:15:06.058 --> 00:15:14.782 And the rock concerts were attended by all these people who thought bikies were just good blokes and it was a ton of fun and they were on a great show and they had some pretty good acts. 157 00:15:15.222 --> 00:15:17.243 But it was more a way to launder money. 158 00:15:18.363 --> 00:15:21.725 So I'd been working there for maybe two years, I suppose. 159 00:15:22.185 --> 00:15:26.707 The other thing, sorry, just to backtrack, if you see a bikie vest or colours they call it, 160 00:15:27.530 --> 00:15:32.352 And there's a little patch that's a 1%, literally 1 with a percentage symbol. 161 00:15:32.933 --> 00:15:34.434 That denotes the wearer is an outlaw. 162 00:15:34.574 --> 00:15:37.395 That denotes the wearer is actually probably an organised criminal. 163 00:15:38.315 --> 00:15:41.997 And that came from a Senate inquiry after World War II. 164 00:15:42.037 --> 00:15:44.519 I think it was the early 50s in California. 165 00:15:45.259 --> 00:15:57.085 A small town called San Bernardino, I think it was, was taken over by bikers and basically raped and pillaged and people were bashed and women were assaulted, all that sort of stuff. 166 00:15:57.925 --> 00:16:10.122 And there was a Senate inquiry into the activity, and the head of the then American Motorcycle Writers Association made evidence and said 99% of people ride motorbikes are law-abiding. 167 00:16:10.843 --> 00:16:14.188 So, of course, then the outlaws jumped on that, well, we're the 1% that aren't. 168 00:16:15.547 --> 00:16:19.730 So they openly declare their criminality, which again just amazes me. 169 00:16:20.410 --> 00:16:28.436 So all of that just continued to engender this real fascination is probably one of a good descriptors of how it felt about it. 170 00:16:28.456 --> 00:16:32.819 I was fascinated by the fact that they are organized criminals and they're so overt. 171 00:16:33.657 --> 00:16:34.017 about it. 172 00:16:34.638 --> 00:16:38.221 And I think because they, for a long time, hadn't been touched. 173 00:16:38.241 --> 00:16:40.343 A lot of police didn't regard them as a threat. 174 00:16:41.003 --> 00:16:58.899 A lot of police fell into the, ah, they're just a bunch of blokes who ride blokes, they're harmless, until we started, when I say we in Australian BCIs, started to gather some pretty serious intel about them and started to then really generate some criminal investigations that sent a lot of these guys to jail. 175 00:16:59.832 --> 00:17:00.652 I'll give you an example. 176 00:17:00.672 --> 00:17:03.454 In Melbourne, this would have been in the early 80s, I think. 177 00:17:04.414 --> 00:17:13.379 The Hells Angels, one or two of them went to the States, and I think they spent time with the Banditos from memory, and came back with a recipe to cook up methamphetamine. 178 00:17:14.819 --> 00:17:18.101 Very, very new in those days, and they made millions of dollars out of it. 179 00:17:18.968 --> 00:17:23.452 And they were then targeted by Victoria Police. 180 00:17:23.472 --> 00:17:24.513 A couple were arrested. 181 00:17:24.914 --> 00:17:26.635 The main cook was arrested, et cetera. 182 00:17:27.436 --> 00:17:38.687 And then the response to that was a hitman was flown in from the USA, a Hells Angels hitman, to murder the detective inspector in charge of the whole intelligence area. 183 00:17:40.088 --> 00:17:43.170 Thankfully, the police were alerted to this. 184 00:17:43.930 --> 00:17:48.513 And in the good old days of policing, you could take some action you probably couldn't get away with now. 185 00:17:49.133 --> 00:17:56.837 They met this bloke at the airport and had a very assertive conversation with him in an interview room and put him on a plane and sent him home again. 186 00:17:57.878 --> 00:18:05.402 There wasn't any physical violence, but it was enough of a conversation that the hitman went, okay, I'm done, I'll get the picture, I'm not going to do any of this. 187 00:18:06.315 --> 00:18:14.794 But that just showed this one example of the lengths that Viking gangs went to and would probably, no wrong, and still go to, to deal with opposition. 188 00:18:15.825 --> 00:18:29.055 In about, I think it would have been, I went there in 89, so probably, oh yeah, it would have been 1990 and 91, a national task force was started to disrupt the Hells Angels world run. 189 00:18:29.716 --> 00:18:36.321 So to think about what I mentioned about having a run and a run is organising a meeting to organise criminal activities and lines of distribution. 190 00:18:36.862 --> 00:18:42.366 The Hells Angels were having a world run in Adelaide and I think it was set to take place in 1994. 191 00:18:43.867 --> 00:18:44.528 or not extreme. 192 00:18:45.168 --> 00:18:50.572 We were tasked with gathering sufficient intelligence to disrupt it, in other words, to prevent it from happening. 193 00:18:51.432 --> 00:19:02.860 I worked for probably two years as part of that national task force in addition to what I was doing locally, and went to every rock concert, every event around the country. 194 00:19:03.560 --> 00:19:05.962 We would stand on the roadblocks with the police. 195 00:19:05.982 --> 00:19:07.863 So the police would roadblock everybody who went in. 196 00:19:08.464 --> 00:19:10.165 They'd take details of who they were. 197 00:19:10.185 --> 00:19:13.287 They'd search vehicles if there was reasonable grounds to do it, et cetera. 198 00:19:13.928 --> 00:19:18.091 And rather than being covert, we stood there and we photographed overtly. 199 00:19:18.151 --> 00:19:20.853 We took details and made ourselves known. 200 00:19:21.413 --> 00:19:28.718 You know, even though in those days I had a shoulder-linked hair and an earring and, you know, all that cool stuff, they knew exactly who we were. 201 00:19:29.558 --> 00:19:31.760 And we knew that they knew exactly who we were. 202 00:19:31.780 --> 00:19:34.642 So it became a little bit of a mind game. 203 00:19:35.202 --> 00:19:36.163 Some of them spoke to us. 204 00:19:36.503 --> 00:19:38.604 Most of them told us in no uncertain terms to go away. 205 00:19:39.305 --> 00:19:39.845 But we... 206 00:19:40.885 --> 00:19:48.011 There are some people who, you know, you took a business card to someone and he'd give you some information because there might have been something in it for him. 207 00:19:48.912 --> 00:19:51.254 So again, the loyalty is not blanket. 208 00:19:51.755 --> 00:19:58.360 But after that two years, we gathered sufficient intel to put a massive report into the Attorney-General. 209 00:19:59.221 --> 00:20:04.946 And the Attorney-General listened, was briefed via the Australian BCI in Canada. 210 00:20:05.647 --> 00:20:08.509 One of the representatives was with us for these two years as well. 211 00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:15.936 And in essence, the Attorney-General made a decision to recuse the visas of all of those Hells Angels who applied to come to Australia for that run. 212 00:20:16.556 --> 00:20:17.597 That was the disruptor. 213 00:20:18.057 --> 00:20:19.259 They simply couldn't get here. 214 00:20:19.939 --> 00:20:22.261 So that whole world run didn't eventually. 215 00:20:23.002 --> 00:20:25.804 So apologies to any Hells Angels out there who may be listening. 216 00:20:25.964 --> 00:20:26.485 Sorry, boys. 217 00:20:27.528 --> 00:20:36.671 That was an incredibly interesting part of my career, is just the exposure to a culture that I hadn't been really aware of before. 218 00:20:37.691 --> 00:20:41.773 And part of my role was to travel the state and educate police about it as well. 219 00:20:42.496 --> 00:20:44.317 So, you know, I'd start at the academy. 220 00:20:44.337 --> 00:20:49.399 I'd talk to every recruit intake and explain what outlaw motorcycle gangs are all about. 221 00:20:50.040 --> 00:21:04.567 I visited or went around, a bit of a junket, went around to the major regional areas in Queensland to literally educate cops, to try to change that mindset about bikies being not much of a threat to a substantial criminal organisation. 222 00:21:05.147 --> 00:21:08.449 So that was, gee whiz, 30 years ago, which is scary. 223 00:21:09.097 --> 00:21:17.682 And I look now at the activities of outlaw mysackel gangs throughout the country, and I fear we really missed our chance to disrupt them. 224 00:21:18.202 --> 00:21:28.848 Because regardless of what the BCI wing clipping operators tried to do, the message didn't really get through to those in command of police forces, which is quite sad. 225 00:21:29.648 --> 00:21:37.793 There was a resurgence of wing clipping investigations back in the late 90s after I'd resigned from the policing, and they did some pretty good work. 226 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.409 But, you know, as I say, I fear our opportunity is lost. 227 00:21:41.755 --> 00:21:43.276 Keith, it's such a wonderful insight. 228 00:21:43.396 --> 00:21:49.820 And goodness me, there's a lot of old terms that you're popping up there that bring back some memories for me, you know, patch members, prospects and that type of thing. 229 00:21:50.620 --> 00:21:53.001 You and I have chatted before and we've chatted off air. 230 00:21:53.022 --> 00:21:56.504 You know, I was in the Police New Zealand the same time as you were serving there in Queensland. 231 00:21:56.544 --> 00:22:01.566 Of course, New Zealand has a very well-known massive gang issue, population fact. 232 00:22:01.606 --> 00:22:09.311 Interestingly, mate, I had a chap on a chief inspector from New Zealand a year or so back saying the gang numbers in New Zealand increased 75% in the last five years. 233 00:22:09.331 --> 00:22:09.451 Wow. 234 00:22:11.232 --> 00:22:13.493 It's interesting to hear you talk about this. 235 00:22:13.593 --> 00:22:15.774 I know it's different, but it's the same. 236 00:22:16.155 --> 00:22:23.698 I was in a riot unit for two years, like a rap door thing that they set up here in New South Wales, and it was a sort of a zero tolerance with the gangs. 237 00:22:23.738 --> 00:22:25.880 And then they sort of pulled back a bit from that. 238 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:33.824 And I'm just listening to what you're saying, and I can't help but think there are some real parallels there that took the foot off the throat a little bit and... 239 00:22:34.684 --> 00:22:40.186 You know, these young guys that get attracted into these gangs as prospects and then, you know, they've got to do their time. 240 00:22:40.206 --> 00:22:41.466 They become patch members. 241 00:22:41.806 --> 00:22:44.527 You know, these are often boys, 15, 16, 17. 242 00:22:44.927 --> 00:22:52.390 I know New Zealand, they throw $10,000 at them and a Harley Davidson and suddenly they're committed to this organisation for life. 243 00:22:52.970 --> 00:22:55.992 Prior to this, you were an undercover operative yourself. 244 00:22:56.032 --> 00:22:59.353 In fact, one of the first undercover operatives in Queensland. 245 00:22:59.393 --> 00:23:03.455 And I was wondering, you see police inside the gangs. 246 00:23:03.716 --> 00:23:05.697 That is such a long, slow process. 247 00:23:06.437 --> 00:23:15.222 But were you getting any intel at all from, I know we wouldn't have had any police members within the gang, but you're getting any intel from associates and things. 248 00:23:15.242 --> 00:23:17.903 Is any of that, would that have been feeding through for you? 249 00:23:18.421 --> 00:23:18.941 Yeah, we did. 250 00:23:19.422 --> 00:23:21.563 We had informants who were on the fringes. 251 00:23:22.104 --> 00:23:26.827 There were a couple of patch members who rolled over, but that was their own reasons. 252 00:23:26.987 --> 00:23:28.488 They felt slighted and hard done by. 253 00:23:28.508 --> 00:23:32.351 But we had people just giving us information. 254 00:23:32.751 --> 00:23:35.793 And you'd spend a lot of time in the field. 255 00:23:36.454 --> 00:23:40.557 And there's an old saying that you don't catch crooks in bingo halls, you meet them in pubs. 256 00:23:41.423 --> 00:23:53.638 And we spent a fair bit of time drinking, getting to know people, not declaring ourselves all the time, as in declaring ourselves to be cops all the time, but certainly enough to just get snippets. 257 00:23:53.678 --> 00:23:56.441 And the intelligence area, again, it's a fascinating field. 258 00:23:57.182 --> 00:24:01.386 Intelligence analysis is just getting snippets of information and then trying to fit them together. 259 00:24:01.786 --> 00:24:07.190 Some don't fit, you discard them, but you'd be surprised at how many things it's like a giant jigsaw puzzle. 260 00:24:07.871 --> 00:24:10.213 So you get information from someone about the rebels. 261 00:24:10.253 --> 00:24:16.378 You get some information from someone about, oh, the black urans I know this guy from the urans is meaning someone from the rebels. 262 00:24:16.867 --> 00:24:21.888 And you go, okay, it's interesting because three months ago, they were at each other's strokes. 263 00:24:22.489 --> 00:24:24.129 So there's a shifting in alliance. 264 00:24:24.289 --> 00:24:26.770 It was always about drugs, always about money. 265 00:24:27.230 --> 00:24:29.511 So you'd be able to see the alliances. 266 00:24:29.611 --> 00:24:33.572 And in fact, we disrupted a black Ulan's motorcade 267 00:24:34.183 --> 00:24:35.884 I think it was when they were at war with the Rebels. 268 00:24:36.324 --> 00:24:42.408 And they were driving from Brisbane to the Sunshine Coast to go to the Rebels clubhouse and shoot it up. 269 00:24:43.148 --> 00:24:46.230 And so we got them intercepted by the tactical guys. 270 00:24:46.731 --> 00:24:50.773 And they had a German 9mm Schmeiser submachine gun. 271 00:24:50.993 --> 00:24:53.955 If you watch the old war movies, they were a beautiful bit of kit. 272 00:24:54.415 --> 00:24:55.796 An M60 that was stolen. 273 00:24:55.836 --> 00:24:58.978 So a machine gun would have been stolen from the Army, from an Army Reserve Depo. 274 00:24:59.639 --> 00:25:00.499 They had explosives. 275 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:01.320 They had handguns. 276 00:25:01.580 --> 00:25:03.121 And they were on the way to do war. 277 00:25:03.981 --> 00:25:12.350 And we were able to intercept and disrupt that because of information from someone who was on the fringes combined with some other things. 278 00:25:12.950 --> 00:25:15.873 So, yeah, it's a really interesting field. 279 00:25:15.893 --> 00:25:19.537 And as I've said before, mate, it still fascinates me because I just watch it now as it's been in. 280 00:25:19.977 --> 00:25:22.480 The way that alliances chop and change, you know? 281 00:25:22.940 --> 00:25:29.245 The Black Oolans, now that's the gang that folks would probably, and particularly outside of Queensland, may not even be aware of. 282 00:25:29.285 --> 00:25:32.147 They've sort of dissolved and disappeared. 283 00:25:32.187 --> 00:25:37.831 But this is a gang that were very front and centre during your time, though, founded in Queensland. 284 00:25:37.851 --> 00:25:37.991 And... 285 00:25:38.631 --> 00:25:46.936 Back in the day, one of, if not the wealthiest outdoor motorcycle gang in Australia, they had a 15-year reign as Australia's largest supplies of methamphetamine. 286 00:25:47.396 --> 00:25:51.318 Now, this is a motorcycle gang that a huge percentage of the country probably never heard of. 287 00:25:51.798 --> 00:26:03.105 They weren't massive in numbers, but the amount of money that was going through, and I always smile like you do, Keith, when we see Comanche Heroes Rebels going on these... 288 00:26:03.765 --> 00:26:06.829 drives with teddy bears and stuff to drop them at the children's hospital. 289 00:26:06.869 --> 00:26:12.335 And it's a wonderful piece of PR on their part because people say, oh, goodness me, you know, they're not that bad. 290 00:26:12.876 --> 00:26:22.287 There would be very, very few class A and B drugs on the street of any major city in Australia today that doesn't have the fingerprints of motorcycle gangs all over it. 291 00:26:22.547 --> 00:26:23.128 For sure. 292 00:26:23.328 --> 00:26:27.191 And you look at what's happening now with tobacconists being firebombed, et cetera. 293 00:26:27.211 --> 00:26:29.072 That's got biky fingerprints all over it. 294 00:26:29.553 --> 00:26:36.098 And, you know, tattoo parlours being shot up, people being bashed, people being shot in car parks of gyms. 295 00:26:36.318 --> 00:26:37.499 It's all biky activity. 296 00:26:38.300 --> 00:26:48.168 And the thing that, you know, really used to amuse us as well was that every time you have a clubhouse rated, so we'd always send the tactical guys in. 297 00:26:48.348 --> 00:26:49.329 I used to be one of them, of course. 298 00:26:49.930 --> 00:26:51.231 Send them in first, then we'd go in. 299 00:26:51.997 --> 00:26:54.978 and gather whatever intel we could, any documentation, all under warrant. 300 00:26:55.919 --> 00:27:09.184 You would always see posters on the wall, like the wild ones, the Marlon Brando movie that was made after the riot in California, or Godfather posters, or all of this gangster stuff. 301 00:27:09.204 --> 00:27:09.884 Can you just go... 302 00:27:10.475 --> 00:27:13.137 These guys are living in a little bit of a strange world. 303 00:27:13.257 --> 00:27:17.840 They actually think that they're gangsters and they think they're, you know, all these real hard, tough guys. 304 00:27:18.401 --> 00:27:25.145 And it's interesting that very often in my experience, when they were confronted, they were very, very compliant. 305 00:27:25.746 --> 00:27:30.329 They would not be like that in the public eye, but they were certainly very compliant with us. 306 00:27:31.169 --> 00:27:36.033 So it's just that whole paradox, you know, with the tough gangs and so on. 307 00:27:36.433 --> 00:27:37.614 And I notice now that, 308 00:27:38.350 --> 00:27:45.194 It has been a real move, particularly in Sydney, to recruit young men into gangs, into clubs, that don't ride motorbikes. 309 00:27:46.315 --> 00:27:51.478 They're there because of their connections or because of, I would think, the young guys, because they're expendable. 310 00:27:52.119 --> 00:28:02.405 You know, as I said before, you'd show money at a young guy and money, girls, bike, whatever, my style, and they fall right into that, and then that's it, they're endangered for the rest of their lives. 311 00:28:02.633 --> 00:28:04.255 And that's the other side to it too, isn't it? 312 00:28:04.335 --> 00:28:14.288 As we well know, Keith, you know, these young blokes that go in as prospects and maybe get patched up, it's not like they can do a year or two and then go and see the boss and say, look, mate, I'm done here. 313 00:28:14.308 --> 00:28:15.950 I'm going to go and get a plumbing apprenticeship. 314 00:28:16.631 --> 00:28:19.094 You're in there until such time as they tell you you're not. 315 00:28:19.875 --> 00:28:33.044 I used to find too, the guys that were probably most cooperative with the police were the guys in their 40s who'd probably been in the gang for 25 years and they just, they couldn't be bothered with all the drama. 316 00:28:33.645 --> 00:28:39.469 We also found with the gangs that were really up to their neck in the drugs, they were 317 00:28:39.629 --> 00:28:47.373 They wanted to decrease their presence on the street, so they didn't want to be turned over by the police. 318 00:28:47.393 --> 00:28:52.856 They didn't want to all be congregating, 100, 150 of them at a pub, right, police come through and all that. 319 00:28:53.336 --> 00:29:01.060 The more successful they became with regards to the income and money they were making, the more sort of low profile they became. 320 00:29:01.600 --> 00:29:04.442 I thought that was an interesting aspect of that environment as well. 321 00:29:05.135 --> 00:29:06.676 Yeah, absolutely, mate. 322 00:29:06.696 --> 00:29:10.358 We saw that in the late 80s and the early 90s start to take effect. 323 00:29:10.858 --> 00:29:19.282 They'd fly from Brisbane to Cairns on drug runs and wear long-sleeve shirts to cover the tats, take off the necklaces and the paraphernalia and just try to blend in. 324 00:29:19.962 --> 00:29:29.167 And it's interesting, when you said guys have been in a club 25 years, it reminded me there was a Gypsy Jokers run from Adelaide to Brisbane and far north, I think. 325 00:29:30.028 --> 00:29:35.912 And the Gypsy Jokers are a notorious club based in Adelaide, and they're one of the most violent clubs, or they were. 326 00:29:36.472 --> 00:29:44.198 I was happily sitting in my office and police headquarters, you know, and one of the guys came in and said, oh, mate, there's about 150 or so Gypsy Jokers on their way to Brisbane. 327 00:29:44.818 --> 00:29:46.139 I thought, okay, that's going to be interesting. 328 00:29:46.199 --> 00:29:55.845 So I strolled down, but before I left the office, I put a 9mm pistol just in my waistband under a, you know, the shirt was sort of tucked out so it wasn't obvious, just in case. 329 00:29:56.366 --> 00:29:58.807 So I walked down to where they were and they'd been stopped by police. 330 00:30:00.272 --> 00:30:01.293 and trouble was brewing. 331 00:30:01.333 --> 00:30:02.554 It was about to get ugly. 332 00:30:03.315 --> 00:30:07.698 And I thought, shit, you know, and I had a pair of jeans and a shirt and whatever, long hair. 333 00:30:08.299 --> 00:30:12.963 So I walked over and discreetly got my badge out and discreetly spoke to someone who said, where's the president? 334 00:30:13.904 --> 00:30:15.885 And, you know, as usual, who the F wants to know? 335 00:30:15.945 --> 00:30:17.487 And I said, mate, just trust me. 336 00:30:17.507 --> 00:30:18.527 I need to talk to the president. 337 00:30:19.228 --> 00:30:27.375 At that stage, I was a detective sergeant, so I'd been in the job, you know, six seasons, I suppose, mid-30s or whatever, so I wasn't a kid. 338 00:30:28.192 --> 00:30:29.292 and spoke to the president. 339 00:30:29.312 --> 00:30:30.653 I said, look, this is who I am. 340 00:30:30.893 --> 00:30:31.653 This is what I do. 341 00:30:31.933 --> 00:30:33.474 I understand what you guys are doing. 342 00:30:33.954 --> 00:30:37.115 I understand you just want to go on your run and be uninterrupted. 343 00:30:37.195 --> 00:30:39.236 However, the cops have got a job to do. 344 00:30:39.256 --> 00:30:43.218 And I said, I don't want to see it all go badly here because it's got the potential to. 345 00:30:43.258 --> 00:30:46.999 And he said, you're the first effing cop that I'm talking to that's got some sense. 346 00:30:47.059 --> 00:30:48.259 And I said, well, I appreciate that, mate. 347 00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:53.241 Pretty much brokered a deal between him and the commissioned officer in charge of the scene. 348 00:30:53.982 --> 00:30:57.243 I reflected on this only a little while ago because I came across a photo. 349 00:30:58.058 --> 00:31:05.826 After it all calmed down, I was talking to a guy probably 15 years older than me who had this really cool Socktail Harley. 350 00:31:05.846 --> 00:31:10.991 Because working on biker gangs, I developed a bit of a taste for Harleys, which is quite ironic. 351 00:31:11.452 --> 00:31:13.975 And so I'm looking at the bike and having a chat to him about it. 352 00:31:14.495 --> 00:31:16.435 And I said, mate, any chance of a photo? 353 00:31:16.656 --> 00:31:17.456 And he said, sure. 354 00:31:17.816 --> 00:31:29.418 So I've got this photo of this gypsy joker, who'd probably done his fair share of time, with his arm around the shoulder of a detective sergeant who's running the bikey wing clipping desk with the avowed mission to, you know, bring them all down. 355 00:31:29.879 --> 00:31:31.339 And it is a cracker of a photo. 356 00:31:31.659 --> 00:31:34.000 You know, we're both bringing it to the camera and so on. 357 00:31:34.040 --> 00:31:44.222 And I found it the other day going through some things and thought, that sort of says it all about the ability of police to just diffuse stuff just by talking. 358 00:31:44.942 --> 00:31:49.106 and having a little bit of humble pie, you know, not going in and going, right, we run this place, you don't. 359 00:31:49.566 --> 00:31:51.027 There's a time and a place for that too. 360 00:31:51.587 --> 00:31:56.991 But I just remember thinking, shit, if this kicks off, it's not going to be good for either side. 361 00:31:57.592 --> 00:31:58.713 And we all parted friends. 362 00:31:59.815 --> 00:32:01.857 It's such a valid point that you make too, Keith, isn't it? 363 00:32:01.877 --> 00:32:11.989 Because whether it's the young beat cop, you know, just out of the academy or like you say, a seasoned sort of de-sergeant, the key to successful or effective policing is communication, isn't it? 364 00:32:12.549 --> 00:32:15.512 You're dealing with guys who have been through the ringer that many times. 365 00:32:15.593 --> 00:32:20.298 You know, you couldn't have a discussion like that with a prospect because they're just, that's not where their heads are. 366 00:32:20.658 --> 00:32:23.821 But the guy you're talking to, he's been in the gang 20-odd years, mate. 367 00:32:23.841 --> 00:32:25.923 He doesn't need to spend another night in the cells. 368 00:32:26.023 --> 00:32:28.625 And they want that path of least resistance. 369 00:32:29.206 --> 00:32:31.448 And nothing will have changed in that world, Keith. 370 00:32:31.488 --> 00:32:33.510 I mean, you've been out of the job for a little while. 371 00:32:34.050 --> 00:32:35.151 These gangs are still around. 372 00:32:35.172 --> 00:32:38.895 You know, common sheroes, rebels, they're everywhere, Hells Angels. 373 00:32:39.355 --> 00:32:46.242 Do we still have a fair bit of intelligence going on, still a fair bit of police resources devoted to the gangs up there in Queensland? 374 00:32:46.791 --> 00:32:48.633 In Queensland, for sure, yeah. 375 00:32:48.833 --> 00:32:57.761 Victoria went to a stage where Christine Nixon, I'm happy to use her name, she was appointed commissioner of the Victoria Police some years ago. 376 00:32:57.781 --> 00:33:03.026 And unfortunately, she had a position that there was no such thing as a criminal gang in Victoria. 377 00:33:03.587 --> 00:33:04.467 That was her policy. 378 00:33:05.208 --> 00:33:14.891 So she disbanded the VCI, disbanded all investigations into organised criminal bikey gangs, and Victoria became known as Twitsman in that culture. 379 00:33:14.911 --> 00:33:23.894 So bikeys would come from Adelaide, from New South Wales, from Queensland to Victoria to do all their stuff with the knowledge that they just weren't going to be targeted. 380 00:33:24.674 --> 00:33:29.815 And fortunately, when she left, that gang investigation was resurrected. 381 00:33:30.316 --> 00:33:33.377 But again, I think she was in a job for four or five years. 382 00:33:33.397 --> 00:33:34.537 There was a lot of damage done then. 383 00:33:35.354 --> 00:33:38.817 But in Queensland, on the other hand, had written legislation. 384 00:33:38.837 --> 00:33:45.202 So legislation was written by a friend of mine, actually, who I used to work with in the VCI, who was in that particular part of the police force. 385 00:33:45.883 --> 00:33:50.507 He wrote legislation to do something about the bikies, and it was passed by Parliament. 386 00:33:51.107 --> 00:33:58.954 It was after a riot on the Gold Coast, I believe, where warring gangs were bashing each other in a restaurant in front of normal, nice people. 387 00:33:59.455 --> 00:34:01.035 So the government of those who have had enough. 388 00:34:01.575 --> 00:34:03.796 So the legislation was groundbreaking. 389 00:34:04.496 --> 00:34:15.038 It banned the wearing of colours, banned the wearing of patches, all of that stuff, banned Mikey Club members from associating with each other in groups of more than three. 390 00:34:15.858 --> 00:34:28.720 It banned them going to clubhouses, and it basically broke the back of those outlaw motorcycle gangs in Queensland for quite some time because they just weren't allowed to associate with each other, and there were mandatory jail sentences for the member. 391 00:34:29.431 --> 00:34:33.815 And this particular guy was at home and he rang me and he said, hey, guess what I've been up to? 392 00:34:34.135 --> 00:34:36.577 And he was giving me a rundown on the legislation he was writing. 393 00:34:36.597 --> 00:34:37.598 And I thought, wow. 394 00:34:37.998 --> 00:34:42.422 And he said, I have to tell you, mate, I thought about you as I was putting some of this together as well. 395 00:34:43.182 --> 00:34:44.183 I just thought it was brilliant. 396 00:34:44.203 --> 00:34:56.153 You know, you take away those outward symbols of power, which is what they are, take away the ability for them to associate, you take away the ability for them to go to a clubhouse, which is their sanctuary, 397 00:34:58.035 --> 00:34:59.096 to break the back of a game. 398 00:34:59.696 --> 00:35:01.217 So a lot of them left Queensland. 399 00:35:01.897 --> 00:35:08.840 A lot of them actually went to police stations and handed in their colours, which was unheard of, and then left Queensland and moved to New South Wales and Victoria. 400 00:35:13.293 --> 00:35:17.734 Keith, look, Queensland police historical corruption is well documented. 401 00:35:18.014 --> 00:35:20.355 Numerous royal commissions, countless investigations. 402 00:35:21.435 --> 00:35:35.580 You yourself as a serving officer in Queensland, you cross paths with a member of the somewhat infamous Queensland police rat pack, Tony Murphy, whose name will bring back all sorts of memories for all the wrong reasons for a lot of folks going back to that time. 403 00:35:35.600 --> 00:35:36.180 Yeah. 404 00:35:36.380 --> 00:35:46.468 I'm just interested in hearing your recollection as a serving officer in Queensland at a time where there was some of this sort of stuff that was going on just below the surface. 405 00:35:47.428 --> 00:35:48.850 They were interesting days, mate. 406 00:35:48.910 --> 00:36:02.500 And it's funny, when you work in an organisation that had corrupt influences, and I have to, I always say the vast majority of men and women I worked with were straight good coppers, but there were sufficient people in positions of authority. 407 00:36:03.196 --> 00:36:08.778 who were corrupt, who ran corrupt rings, to have a major impact on what you did on a daily basis. 408 00:36:09.478 --> 00:36:16.401 For instance, I was in uniform in mobile patrols, and we were directed not to go near them. 409 00:36:16.421 --> 00:36:19.282 I think there might have been three or four brothels in our patrol division. 410 00:36:19.903 --> 00:36:29.466 We were directed not to go near them, because we used to spend some time looking to see what was going on, who was going in, make sure everything was, you know, nothing violent was happening or whatever. 411 00:36:29.947 --> 00:36:30.967 Normal police patrolmen. 412 00:36:31.549 --> 00:36:33.170 And at that stage, brothels were illegal. 413 00:36:33.210 --> 00:36:41.296 We knew they were illegal, but we just were told that they were tolerated for various reasons well above our pay grade. 414 00:36:41.496 --> 00:36:42.157 So no problem. 415 00:36:42.717 --> 00:36:45.339 You just accept what you can and can't do again. 416 00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:57.427 But in this particular time, we were told to stay well away from them, and I never knew why until the revelations of our Royal Commission came out, and that was because people were going in there and collecting grafts, collecting money. 417 00:36:58.681 --> 00:37:02.606 Just like biker gangs, I had a couple of working girls as informers as well. 418 00:37:03.206 --> 00:37:08.553 And, you know, my experience was they treated them respectfully as human beings and didn't judge or look down on them. 419 00:37:08.593 --> 00:37:10.495 They were a valuable source of information. 420 00:37:11.316 --> 00:37:12.738 That's just one example. 421 00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:18.545 Tony Murphy was detective superintendent, I think, when I first heard of him. 422 00:37:19.388 --> 00:37:28.912 And his name was literally whispered, literally whispered, on night work generally when there were no one else around to hear what you were saying. 423 00:37:29.512 --> 00:37:36.075 And I remember a senior constable I was working with who probably had 15 years' service or so, was telling me about Murphy. 424 00:37:37.035 --> 00:37:40.256 It was bizarre because it was 1 o'clock in the morning or around me. 425 00:37:40.957 --> 00:37:44.418 And suddenly he lowered his voice as if we'd be overheard from someone. 426 00:37:45.103 --> 00:37:47.844 about this guy, Murphy, who was just feared. 427 00:37:48.144 --> 00:37:52.305 He was rumoured to have killed two people that was off the books. 428 00:37:52.826 --> 00:37:55.346 He was rumoured to have done all various things. 429 00:37:55.947 --> 00:38:01.128 And I remember Stan saying to me, if ever you come across Murphy, do not have eye contact with him. 430 00:38:01.768 --> 00:38:06.390 Get away from him as quickly as possible because if you're here in Mendel's shoe, that's not going to be good. 431 00:38:07.142 --> 00:38:10.044 And I didn't understand what he meant again until some time later. 432 00:38:10.544 --> 00:38:18.450 And Murphy, if he decided that you weren't beneficial to him or you were some sort of threat to him, your career was over. 433 00:38:19.150 --> 00:38:28.177 And I know of young men who were transferred literally overnight from Brisbane to the far out reaches of the state, you know, as punishment or whatever. 434 00:38:29.017 --> 00:38:34.581 And ironically, when Ray Whitrod was appointed commissioner before Terry Lewis, and Terry Lewis was one of the other back now, 435 00:38:35.181 --> 00:38:42.127 I was a cadet in the academy and Wichlod was appointed from South Australia as a reformer commissioner. 436 00:38:42.167 --> 00:38:48.112 He was well aware of what was happening and he was prepared to turn the place to the ground and get rid of the stench of corruption. 437 00:38:48.612 --> 00:38:54.597 So he transferred Murty from Brisbane to Longreach out in the outback of Queensland. 438 00:38:55.097 --> 00:38:58.360 He transferred Lewis to Charleville in the outback of Queensland. 439 00:38:59.087 --> 00:39:06.069 And they both then mounted a campaign against him and campaigned misinformation to the then Premier, Joby Ockie-Peterson. 440 00:39:06.869 --> 00:39:12.870 And Joby Ockie-Peterson promoted Terry Lewis from inspector to assistant commissioner, so he jumped about three ranks. 441 00:39:13.730 --> 00:39:15.671 And that, for which Rod, was the end of it. 442 00:39:15.931 --> 00:39:17.191 That was the final story. 443 00:39:17.211 --> 00:39:20.052 He just said, I can't change this place. 444 00:39:21.052 --> 00:39:24.433 And Lewis was then promoted to commissioner quite quickly after that. 445 00:39:25.165 --> 00:39:31.907 Murphy was brought back from the outback into the folds of Brisbane and headed the Metro Criminal Investigation Branch. 446 00:39:31.927 --> 00:39:33.227 So he was in charge of all of it. 447 00:39:33.887 --> 00:39:46.191 And it was then just this environment of, I wouldn't say despair, but certainly, wow, what the hell is going to happen to this police force now? 448 00:39:46.211 --> 00:39:46.571 Yeah. 449 00:39:47.070 --> 00:39:56.854 But having said that, we tended to find other people that shared our values and weren't corrupt cops, and you just did the best you can to work with people you could trust. 450 00:39:57.755 --> 00:39:59.035 There were things that occurred. 451 00:39:59.235 --> 00:40:12.441 There were things that happened where investigations were stopped without explanation, or a particular identity could walk into the foyer of police headquarters without being challenged, 452 00:40:13.345 --> 00:40:20.668 walk straight through the security offices at the front, get into the lift and go straight to the commission's office any time he wanted. 453 00:40:21.508 --> 00:40:26.370 And that particular identity was reputed to have imported substantial mass drugs. 454 00:40:27.151 --> 00:40:32.693 So, you know, you'd look at that and go, wow, oh, well, I guess there's nothing I can do about it, so I'll just... 455 00:40:33.446 --> 00:40:35.127 try to work around it or try to ignore it. 456 00:40:35.907 --> 00:40:48.252 And, you know, there was a bit of a culture with some police who executed search warrants on drug dealers' houses and steal their money, arresting robbers and steal their money, you know, all of that stuff. 457 00:40:48.773 --> 00:40:51.834 It was quite bizarre to me and still is because it was joked about. 458 00:40:52.832 --> 00:40:58.538 You're having a beer in the police pub and overhear a conversation about how a couple of guys have ripped off a drug dealer for $100,000. 459 00:40:58.598 --> 00:40:59.258 It was a big joke. 460 00:40:59.979 --> 00:41:07.326 And that's when you learn as a young cop just to shut your mouth, pretend that you haven't heard anything, and move on and get back to work. 461 00:41:08.167 --> 00:41:13.592 I came across something after I'd finished undercover and I went back to, or went to this criminal investigation world. 462 00:41:14.433 --> 00:41:20.681 And I was brought into the Great Kineta Squad, which is one of the elite squads, I suppose, that was operating then. 463 00:41:20.721 --> 00:41:22.824 And it was quite an honour that we asked to come and work there. 464 00:41:23.545 --> 00:41:25.167 Must have liked something I did. 465 00:41:25.883 --> 00:41:36.386 And I came across something that was a parcel of drugs that I'd executed as first one of families, this massive amount of drugs, with an exhibit tag inside it. 466 00:41:36.986 --> 00:41:43.989 So the exhibit tag meant they had been seized by a detective who clearly then had put him back on the street. 467 00:41:44.909 --> 00:41:48.410 And the genius had forgotten to take the exhibit tag out with his name on it. 468 00:41:49.181 --> 00:41:51.263 So I grabbed my sergeant and said, we'd need to go and have a chat. 469 00:41:51.443 --> 00:41:53.746 And I said, look, I'm not comfortable with this at all. 470 00:41:53.926 --> 00:41:55.307 In fact, this is really pissing me off. 471 00:41:55.668 --> 00:41:56.749 I'll never do something about it. 472 00:41:57.390 --> 00:42:00.233 He said, all right, mate, let's go and have a beer and talk this through. 473 00:42:00.893 --> 00:42:02.875 And he said, look, he said, I understand. 474 00:42:03.816 --> 00:42:05.078 I don't have a problem with it. 475 00:42:05.278 --> 00:42:08.682 I understand this is all corruption, et cetera, and you want to do something about it. 476 00:42:09.222 --> 00:42:09.983 He said, bust. 477 00:42:10.838 --> 00:42:23.127 If you go to internal investigations, as it was then known, and you talk to the wrong boss, because the internal investigations detectives were all commissioned officers or detective inspectors. 478 00:42:23.648 --> 00:42:29.772 If you talk to the wrong boss and he's connected with someone, then you're going to find yourself in the ship. 479 00:42:30.433 --> 00:42:33.355 He said, you might come home and there'll be an ounce of heroin in your house. 480 00:42:34.247 --> 00:42:35.568 someone will be waiting with a search warrant. 481 00:42:36.388 --> 00:42:40.730 Or you might open your garage, there'll be a heap of stolen TVs in there, they'll be waiting with a search warrant. 482 00:42:41.130 --> 00:42:43.331 So have a good think, mate, about what you want to do. 483 00:42:44.131 --> 00:42:56.837 And that conversation chilled me because I thought, well, if I try to do something about some corrupt activity that I think is completely wrong, then I'm going to potentially be the victim. 484 00:42:57.848 --> 00:43:02.556 So that encouraged a culture of just shutting up and getting on with it. 485 00:43:03.117 --> 00:43:10.510 It was almost compartmentalised where half of us were good straight coppers and the other half were in it for themselves. 486 00:43:11.854 --> 00:43:20.799 So there was a level of distrust between the two camps because those corrupt cops, they were just as conscious of the fact that they wanted people who thought like they did. 487 00:43:21.059 --> 00:43:23.661 But if you were a straight cop, there was a demeaning phrase. 488 00:43:24.141 --> 00:43:26.623 So they preferred to associate with their own. 489 00:43:27.323 --> 00:43:32.446 And all of this stuff went on while Murphy was still in the job and Lewis was the commissioner. 490 00:43:32.966 --> 00:43:40.991 And then after our corruption or during our corruption inquiry, he suddenly found these corrupt police running for cover. 491 00:43:41.834 --> 00:43:48.199 I think there was at least one suicide, maybe two, where they just realised they were going to go to jail and kill themselves. 492 00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:56.326 There were people being arrested and charged that just blew me away because I thought they were good straight cops, and they weren't. 493 00:43:57.066 --> 00:44:04.573 And when the evidence came out of that commission of inquiry, a lot of them were subject to peer pressure to take the money. 494 00:44:05.416 --> 00:44:10.339 And in fact, one senior police officer was saying he'd never spent any of the cash he had that he'd been given. 495 00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:17.064 He hid it in cavity bricks in his house and just hid it there and it just built up over the years and he had no idea what to do with it. 496 00:44:17.925 --> 00:44:26.471 You know, and that's quite sad that you didn't feel that you had the ability to stick to your moral compass and your integrity and say no. 497 00:44:27.171 --> 00:44:29.553 It was quite a bizarre time and Murphy was feared. 498 00:44:29.853 --> 00:44:31.114 He was literally feared. 499 00:44:31.700 --> 00:44:39.929 You know, if you went to the police club, which was a licensed bar, and you saw Murphy was in there drinking, you'd just quietly exit stage right and go somewhere else. 500 00:44:40.570 --> 00:44:43.713 You know, in the event that you incurred his loss for some reason. 501 00:44:44.534 --> 00:44:46.696 And it was just, yeah, it was a bizarre time, mate. 502 00:44:47.557 --> 00:44:52.683 Even when he resigned, he still exerted a lot of power in his process. 503 00:44:53.304 --> 00:45:00.107 You mentioned that, you know, a lot of this started to turn back on itself as a result of the, which was the Royal Commission, mate? 504 00:45:00.147 --> 00:45:03.789 Which was the one that really brought this to a head and which one was that? 505 00:45:04.070 --> 00:45:05.130 The Fitzgerald Inquiry. 506 00:45:05.210 --> 00:45:06.431 The Fitzgerald Inquiry. 507 00:45:06.731 --> 00:45:08.351 Tony Fitzgerald was a QC, I think. 508 00:45:08.531 --> 00:45:09.251 What year was that? 509 00:45:09.511 --> 00:45:13.712 That was 1987, and it concluded in 1989. 510 00:45:14.112 --> 00:45:19.054 And so I guess the obvious question, Tony Murphy, Terry Lewis, I mean, goodness me. 511 00:45:19.394 --> 00:45:20.974 Like you said, you're a young copper. 512 00:45:20.994 --> 00:45:22.514 Murphy's a detective chief super. 513 00:45:22.534 --> 00:45:23.695 I mean, that's a hell of a rank. 514 00:45:23.735 --> 00:45:24.315 He's right up there. 515 00:45:24.335 --> 00:45:27.515 And then Lewis goes to the rank of commissioner, top of the tree. 516 00:45:28.176 --> 00:45:30.216 What happened to these guys as a result of all that? 517 00:45:30.576 --> 00:45:31.396 Did they get locked up? 518 00:45:31.416 --> 00:45:32.137 Did they do time? 519 00:45:32.177 --> 00:45:33.917 Or what happened to the likes of Tony Murphy? 520 00:45:34.797 --> 00:45:39.398 Lewis went to jail for, I think he was sentenced to 14 years for official corruption. 521 00:45:39.418 --> 00:45:41.579 They've served 11 or 12. 522 00:45:41.879 --> 00:45:48.760 So, yeah, there are still some police in Queensland who'd leaked his defence, probably because he was a personable, applicable guy. 523 00:45:49.480 --> 00:46:02.043 And that's why, if you look at any conversations or literature around the Rat Pack, so Murphy, Hallahan and Lewis, it was their plan all along to have Lewis installed as a commissioner because he was a better public face for it. 524 00:46:03.052 --> 00:46:06.154 Murphy was the strategist and this guy Hallahan was the muscle. 525 00:46:06.835 --> 00:46:16.542 Hallahan, even in the bad old days when it was really difficult to be charged and convicted of anything, he was charged with corruption by some straight police. 526 00:46:16.622 --> 00:46:17.123 So he left. 527 00:46:17.923 --> 00:46:27.170 Murphy, during the whole inquiry, you know, the chief witness who was a corrupt cop who organised all of the payoffs gave evidence and he spoke about Murphy a lot. 528 00:46:27.751 --> 00:46:29.092 But nothing ever happened to him. 529 00:46:30.128 --> 00:46:36.373 Murphy died some years ago, always denying that he was corrupt and it was all just a fit up and, you know, he's just a good bloke, etc. 530 00:46:37.214 --> 00:46:42.978 No witnesses came forward with sufficient information to have Murphy charged. 531 00:46:43.859 --> 00:46:49.844 I look back at it and a lot of the cops of my vintage share the same opinion, is that he was just terrifying. 532 00:46:50.842 --> 00:46:52.664 No one was prepared to give evidence against him. 533 00:46:53.004 --> 00:46:53.565 Lewis, yeah. 534 00:46:53.865 --> 00:46:54.426 Murphy, no. 535 00:46:55.126 --> 00:46:55.807 No, just that. 536 00:46:56.267 --> 00:46:59.430 It's almost impossible to explain the presence the man had. 537 00:47:00.111 --> 00:47:08.139 You know, and he was a very effective investigator, a very good detective, just like Roger Rogerson, a corrupt criminal. 538 00:47:08.695 --> 00:47:13.899 Did you ever meet Murphy personally or did you have those sort of fleeting into the bar, he was there, out type of thing? 539 00:47:13.919 --> 00:47:21.426 No, I met him a couple of times just through jobs that had happened and he'd walk into the office and want to know what was going on. 540 00:47:22.134 --> 00:47:28.316 And I never knew it was because we'd arrested someone who was associated with him or whether he was just wanting to keep his finger on the pulse. 541 00:47:28.956 --> 00:47:34.618 Or possibly he was actually doing his job as a boss, you know, which would have been fine. 542 00:47:35.018 --> 00:47:37.499 But he just had this intimidating presence. 543 00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:41.621 He seemed to be always around, if that makes sense. 544 00:47:41.641 --> 00:47:45.622 You know, you might be on a 2 to 10 shift, locking a cook up, doing interviews, etc. 545 00:47:45.922 --> 00:47:48.223 And suddenly Mercury would materialise from the corridor. 546 00:47:48.963 --> 00:47:51.904 The first time he used my name, I thought, oh, Jesus, what do you know my name? 547 00:47:52.520 --> 00:48:00.244 You know, and as I say, mate, that could have been because he was doing his job or it could have been that he was just wanting to know what was going on and who he could manipulate. 548 00:48:01.024 --> 00:48:02.425 It's just quite a bizarre time. 549 00:48:03.269 --> 00:48:05.070 But I had little to do with him, thank God. 550 00:48:05.390 --> 00:48:09.492 And you mentioned more of a charismatic sort of a character like a Terry Lewis. 551 00:48:09.853 --> 00:48:15.076 It's interesting how, you know, and you've mentioned also Roger Rodson, who was the New South Wales copper. 552 00:48:15.416 --> 00:48:17.137 Those who met him said a very similar thing. 553 00:48:17.617 --> 00:48:19.098 Extremely charismatic. 554 00:48:19.498 --> 00:48:23.900 A very good police officer when he chose to be, you know, working on the right side of the ledger. 555 00:48:24.301 --> 00:48:26.862 To this day, some still bat for him. 556 00:48:27.522 --> 00:48:28.383 It's interesting, isn't it? 557 00:48:28.939 --> 00:48:29.920 Yeah, it is. 558 00:48:29.980 --> 00:48:35.862 I met Roger a couple of times when I was in Sydney on extradition jobs or something else. 559 00:48:36.483 --> 00:48:41.845 And I remember the first time I met him, detectives in those days would have a big lunch at least once a week. 560 00:48:42.486 --> 00:48:48.869 And there was a table of, God, 15 or 20 coppers, all detectives, and Roger was sitting at the head of the table holding court. 561 00:48:49.543 --> 00:48:54.827 And I remember thinking, boy, this guy, because I had very little knowledge of what he was like then. 562 00:48:55.328 --> 00:48:56.169 This is a good guy. 563 00:48:56.529 --> 00:48:59.912 Talking about catching crooks, you know, he's obviously known to his two people. 564 00:48:59.952 --> 00:49:00.232 Love him. 565 00:49:00.272 --> 00:49:02.074 I thought, wow, what an impressive man. 566 00:49:02.554 --> 00:49:06.938 And then within 12 months, he'd organized the attempted murder of McGurray and some other things came out. 567 00:49:07.610 --> 00:49:10.192 Just one of those, yeah, one of those striking personalities. 568 00:49:10.553 --> 00:49:13.775 Whereas Lewis, Lewis was the affable guy. 569 00:49:14.216 --> 00:49:15.016 He was your mate. 570 00:49:15.056 --> 00:49:15.997 He was friendly. 571 00:49:16.438 --> 00:49:22.223 He remembered your name, you know, and he toured Queensland and did some good work. 572 00:49:22.243 --> 00:49:23.684 You know, he upgraded police stations. 573 00:49:23.724 --> 00:49:26.626 He did some various things, but all the time he was taking money. 574 00:49:27.388 --> 00:49:28.470 you know, on a regular basis. 575 00:49:28.991 --> 00:49:35.681 But he just had that almost self-deprecating approach, whereas Murphy, you could feel the air of menace. 576 00:49:36.382 --> 00:49:41.711 With Lewis, it was like, I just felt like your uncle, you know, and it was very clever, very clever. 577 00:49:42.387 --> 00:49:50.771 You look at a Murphy, a character of that type, he's probably on a psychiatrist couch, a bloody borderline psychopath, you know, and probably was when he went into the job. 578 00:49:51.692 --> 00:50:02.137 You wonder about a Terry Lewis as a 19-year-old or younger going into the academy and coming out with all the, you know, the dreams of young blokes coming out. 579 00:50:02.157 --> 00:50:03.678 You wonder just what happened there, don't you? 580 00:50:03.698 --> 00:50:04.258 You wonder what... 581 00:50:04.418 --> 00:50:05.999 Yeah, what the turning point was, yeah. 582 00:50:06.260 --> 00:50:13.426 And where it got to the point where he couldn't turn back and, you know, lights of Murphy and stuff have them in their pocket and it's an interesting one, isn't it? 583 00:50:13.726 --> 00:50:16.228 Yeah, it's the power of personality and all that stuff, I guess. 584 00:50:16.309 --> 00:50:20.592 And, yeah, and, you know, Lewis always denied until he died that he was corrupt. 585 00:50:20.632 --> 00:50:22.974 Murphy denied until he died that he was corrupt. 586 00:50:23.315 --> 00:50:27.719 And that's the thing, yeah, that was part of your education as a cop and we'd nothing deny everything. 587 00:50:28.279 --> 00:50:29.160 You know, demand proof. 588 00:50:30.042 --> 00:50:30.883 Make counter allegations. 589 00:50:30.903 --> 00:50:32.925 I think there's four of them. 590 00:50:33.226 --> 00:50:34.548 And that was the culture. 591 00:50:34.568 --> 00:50:36.150 I'm not going to say a thing. 592 00:50:37.051 --> 00:50:40.075 And so, sadly, the truth will never come out. 593 00:50:40.115 --> 00:50:44.942 But there's sufficient men and women around in those days who would tell the same story I'm telling. 594 00:50:45.516 --> 00:50:48.697 Keith, it's always such a pleasure to get back chatting to you. 595 00:50:48.717 --> 00:50:56.881 I know we've done an interview before and we spoke then, Keith, that you did 20 odd years in the job, retired, 95. 596 00:50:57.281 --> 00:50:59.682 You said at the time you've made no secret of it. 597 00:51:00.122 --> 00:51:06.505 You suffered terribly from post-traumatic stress even before a time and we even had a label for it and it wasn't even diagnosed. 598 00:51:06.525 --> 00:51:07.045 And it was some... 599 00:51:07.465 --> 00:51:10.987 I think 24 years later that you got your formal diagnosis. 600 00:51:11.267 --> 00:51:13.589 You know, you lost a lot of skin in the job, Keith. 601 00:51:13.949 --> 00:51:20.933 On the flip side to that, I know that you've written a couple of books and one particularly looks at that battle that sadly so many police experience. 602 00:51:21.453 --> 00:51:28.057 Can you just tell us a little bit about, you know, those couple of books that you've written and the folks listening can still pick those up somewhere? 603 00:51:28.756 --> 00:51:29.897 Sure, yeah, yeah. 604 00:51:30.397 --> 00:51:39.644 So the first one I wrote was drugs, guns and lies about undercover, working deep undercover back in those interesting days of corruption and so on. 605 00:51:40.304 --> 00:51:47.430 Then I wrote the second one about literally the second half of my career where it's called Gun to the Head, so it's metaphorical and physical. 606 00:51:47.830 --> 00:51:55.996 And that was about a particular gun battle that I'd been involved in and some other things as well that really just sent me down a path of just darkness and, you know, just... 607 00:51:56.516 --> 00:52:05.378 incredibly bloody joyless and sad and self-medicating and full of anger and all of those things that I didn't realize were a condition. 608 00:52:06.219 --> 00:52:12.600 And I struggled with that for, it was around 30 years from the time of that gun battle until my diagnosis. 609 00:52:13.120 --> 00:52:14.661 So I've written very openly about that. 610 00:52:14.961 --> 00:52:15.661 I've written about 611 00:52:16.319 --> 00:52:20.782 recovery and the fact that there is hope and there is light at the end of the tunnel. 612 00:52:21.502 --> 00:52:26.925 And what the publication of those books has allowed me to do is to get into a keynote speaking space. 613 00:52:27.545 --> 00:52:30.387 I don't market myself, but it's organic growth, I guess. 614 00:52:30.767 --> 00:52:36.150 And I talk to organisations, some emergency services, but a lot of non, a lot of 615 00:52:36.450 --> 00:52:44.398 corporations about what it is to have strong mental health, what works for me, the journey I've been through. 616 00:52:44.718 --> 00:52:45.980 And again, I'm quite open about it. 617 00:52:46.220 --> 00:52:52.727 There was a stage where I sat at home and put a gun in my mouth and thought about killing myself and it was just, the pain was just so intense. 618 00:52:53.347 --> 00:52:54.628 And so I talk about all of that. 619 00:52:55.269 --> 00:52:57.191 What I love is the reaction of people. 620 00:52:57.231 --> 00:52:59.053 I'm then contacted by... 621 00:52:59.837 --> 00:53:04.239 God, scores of people after these things to say thanks for being so open about it. 622 00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:06.360 You've helped me understand some things. 623 00:53:06.980 --> 00:53:13.864 Or my partner heard you speak today and he came home and, wow, he's a different guy because now he wants to get help. 624 00:53:13.884 --> 00:53:14.844 He admits he's got a problem. 625 00:53:15.284 --> 00:53:16.645 So I think all of that's really valuable. 626 00:53:16.945 --> 00:53:19.186 It's become my passion in my later life, I guess. 627 00:53:19.246 --> 00:53:27.250 And if I can help someone understand way earlier than I did what is happening, why it's happening, and how you can recover from it, 628 00:53:27.790 --> 00:53:28.471 then that's great. 629 00:53:28.491 --> 00:53:30.152 That's what I want the rest of my life to be. 630 00:53:30.632 --> 00:53:33.234 So the books themselves are still available on Amazon. 631 00:53:33.814 --> 00:53:34.695 I check it every now and then. 632 00:53:35.095 --> 00:53:38.397 So Amazon, Booktopia, and still in some bookstores. 633 00:53:38.957 --> 00:53:42.159 I still pinch myself about the fact that they're still out there selling. 634 00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:46.262 If a person who's never had anything to do with the police reads my books, 635 00:53:46.898 --> 00:53:52.740 At the end of reading those books and they say, wow, I didn't realise there was a lot more in it than writing traffic tickets. 636 00:53:52.781 --> 00:53:59.163 I'm going to change my attitude and actually start respecting or applauding or thanking cops for what they do. 637 00:53:59.783 --> 00:54:01.384 And again, you know, I've achieved a mission. 638 00:54:02.164 --> 00:54:04.305 And also, current cops who read it. 639 00:54:04.385 --> 00:54:10.508 I was at a National Police Remembrance Day celebration or commemoration in Canberra for the last two days. 640 00:54:11.258 --> 00:54:21.447 And a number of young police turned up, and again, it's kind of cool that they know who I am, and they've come up and shaken their hand and said, you know, thanks for what you do, and I've got a lot out of it, read your books, love them, et cetera. 641 00:54:22.048 --> 00:54:23.289 So it's a twofold thing. 642 00:54:23.449 --> 00:54:30.255 It's for people who've never been in policing that it's also just as importantly supporting those who are, because I still think it's the best job in the world. 643 00:54:30.578 --> 00:54:33.461 Keith, mate, it's always such a great pleasure to catch up. 644 00:54:33.501 --> 00:54:39.307 I know we're doing it sort of virtually for you up there in Queensland, in the Sydney studio, but I could chat to you all day, mate. 645 00:54:39.447 --> 00:54:43.411 Thank you again for your service to the good people of Queensland over the 20 years there. 646 00:54:43.731 --> 00:54:52.140 But also, you know, you're still a tireless advocate for the work that you do and spreading the word and talking about stuff that was never spoken about when you and I were there. 647 00:54:52.580 --> 00:54:55.181 went through the job and you've got to put sunlight on these things, mate. 648 00:54:55.261 --> 00:54:57.622 And, and you're doing that better than anybody. 649 00:54:57.682 --> 00:54:59.523 So Keith, great to have you, mate. 650 00:54:59.583 --> 00:55:01.383 I'd love to do it again down the track. 651 00:55:01.743 --> 00:55:04.685 Thanks so much for coming in and really enjoyed our chat as always. 652 00:55:05.045 --> 00:55:05.525 Thanks, Brent. 653 00:55:05.545 --> 00:55:07.085 I really appreciate it myself. 654 00:55:07.246 --> 00:55:10.387 I really enjoyed it myself and appreciate being offered and asked, mate. 655 00:55:10.407 --> 00:55:10.947 So thank you. 656 00:55:12.728 --> 00:55:16.729 Join us next week for another episode of Crime Insiders Forensics. 657 00:55:17.409 --> 00:55:21.491 I'm Brent Sanders with sound design by Niall Fernandez. 658 00:55:22.340 --> 00:55:26.291 This series was recorded and produced on Gadigal land.