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Hey guys, I just want to tell you about something else that Bill Voldemort and I are working on. It's called Living Influence Leadership. It's for business leaders who also happen to be Christians. We think we've got some great stuff that can be amazing in your companies. It wasn't mine. Check us out at livinginfluenceleadership.com.

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Welcome to Living Influence. We're excited to see you again. My name is Scott Boyd, and I'm here with my friend Bill Thrall. Hey, we just want to say a big thank you to everyone that's been viewing our videos, liking our videos, making comments. We're really close to almost 10,000 followers on Instagram, and what a milestone. I'm so excited. When we started this, and when I started this journey with Bill, and it's like, let's go for it.

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What was in my heart was this grace message about our influence and about how God sees us. It's changed my life. I have been so affected by it that for the rest of my days, I want to spend trying to get people to see this different theology that is, it's not in 95% of our churches.

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And so a big thank you to everybody that said hello. And I just, you know, if you haven't followed us, if you haven't subscribed to a channel, please do. It really encourages us. So thank you for that. And today we have...

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We got a letter from a reader, and I wanna read a little bit of this letter, and then I'm gonna ask Bill some questions. He doesn't know the questions I'm gonna ask him, so it'll be kind of fun. We'll see how this goes. Thank you, Scott. You're welcome. So in his letter, he goes, years ago, I was part of a men's small group. It was the start of a couple of my closest friendships, but I can honestly tell you that I would never participate in something like that again.

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It was entirely behavior-based. We would get together and rehash the previous seven days and all the times in the different ways that we had failed, and then we would commit to doing better this week. I have since spoken to several of those friends about how that group functioned, and we pretty much agreed that it was a shame incubator.

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A little bit further on in his letter, because it was a long letter. I just wanted to get a couple of parts out. He goes, while it's true that grace is in my heart, I never really say I understand grace because it's such a huge topic. It boggles my mind and brings tears to my eyes. But it's in my heart. Four decades of legalistic church attendance—

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have made it that I can't imagine getting together as men without behavior being the focus. I want to be able to gather as men. And the purpose of maturing into who God created us to be more than just challenging each other to behave in a more Christianly manner. So if you could give me some insight on that...

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I'd be really grateful. Great letter, Scott. Great letter. I thought it was too. Yeah. So question one, Bill, why do most accountability groups accidentally make shame worse? His insights are really good and the results are tragic.

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I think, Scott, what happens in an accountability group, the intention is that somehow if you and I can admit that we're screwing up, we'll both feel better about ourselves and each other.

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And so you end up with rehearsing mistakes. And what happens, Scott, is that process of rehearsing does something tragic. It creates an awakening of my own shame.

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So what happens is my intention was to meet so we could get to share stuff. But what happened was in the sharing of it, I discovered my shame is triggered. And instead of getting closer in, I withdraw from. And that's his tragic reality. He ended up withdrawing from the very guys he was hoping to engage with.

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so that accountability has an interesting application. Accountability is a great application when it comes to doing tasks. You own a business, Scott, you hire people, you hold them accountable to the job description you gave them.

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It's a horrible means of dealing with relationships because it doesn't do something and it's always assumed. What he assumed at his friends was that just because they agreed to mate together, that it would be safe and it was anything but safe.

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And so what I like to say to somebody like him, and we're addressing him, is this. What does it take to create in relationship a safe place? What does a safe place feel like, look like? And here's the deal. Without trust of person, there is no safety.

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You know, Scott, you and I could rehearse with each other every flaw we've ever made and it won't create trust in us. But if we make a commitment together to experience trusting each other, then what we tell each other changes and the depth of what we tell each other changes. And here's the deference and the opportunity to speak into what we're telling each other changes.

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So that's a long answer to your question, but that's where I begin. Yeah. So let's pause right there on that first statement you made. When we trust each other, it changes what we tell each other.

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Absolutely. What changes? Help me understand what actually changes. If you and I trust each other more, how has our conversation changed? The intention for us to get to know each other is very important. So what happens when we say, when we discover, I'll put it that way, when we discover that

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that the way we get to know each other is to trust each other more. That's how we get to know each other. And you become a safe place for me when what I tell you, you do not judge. That's critical.

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See, trust in a relationship creates a place where what you tell me will not be judged. Accountability is designed to judge. It's like, here's the 10 things I did last week, Scott, and your job in accountability is to remind me, don't do that. That's all screwed up, Bill. Here's 10 reasons you shouldn't be screwed up. Well, that's why that doesn't work. But what does work is this.

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And by the way, this works in our relationship. I'll make it real personal here. I trust you, Scott. I believe you trust me. I think it changes the way we interact with each other because it gives us the freedom. And I'm going to say a key word here. It gives us the freedom to be known.

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See, accountability, because it deals with behavior, never deals with person. And the person never feels known. You can't be known without trust. Here's one of your statements that you've made. One of the greatest gifts that you can give to a believer is to provide a safe place, an opportunity.

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where they can disclose what is true about the sin that is in them and where they can disclose what is true about the sin that has been done against them. To provide a place where they do not have to hide anything.

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So is that judgment piece? It's the commitment to not judge. It's this concept. I need a safe place where what I tell you is not judged because that'll just inflame my shame.

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What if instead of judging my behavior, you chose to come alongside my person, create a safe place where I am more important to you than the things I do?

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For a long time, tragically, especially in legalistic environments, behavior is in fact a condition for fellowship. Oh, yeah. And it's tragic, Scott. What if the condition for fellowship was love? Right. And what if in love we were able to be known? I'm going to circle that word in my mind, to be known, to be known, to be known.

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We desperately, Scott, as people, we desperately want to be known. Right. We do. And we're desperately afraid if we're known, people will run away. So I say to a lot of people, it's like this. Come, please know me, but don't get too close because if you know me, you'll never like me. So accountability creates a crisis. What happens, and this guy who wrote this letter knows this, what happens is...

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What I do is I learn over time to not tell you everything because I'm tired of being judged. So I begin to do something. I begin to hide from you. So in that statement you read, to give a new believer or a believer a place, a safe place, where they can be known, where they don't have to hide, is,

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Scott, I've had the privilege of going into Christian colleges, universities, seminaries, and meet with faculty. And one of the consistent statements I make within the first couple of hours of every time I meet with faculty is this statement. You have these students from one to four or five years even. And let me just say to you, in my opinion as a faculty, one of the greatest gifts you can give them while they're here is,

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is to provide a safe place where they don't have to hide anything. Because something is true, Scott, whatever I hide will one day define me. You said something a little bit earlier about our churches, say that if I come alongside someone who's sinning, I'm condoning his sin. That's so tragic, isn't it?

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It's very tragic, Scott. Part of the whole conversation that we're having on this is this dear guy who wrote this letter says, listen to his words, 40 years, Scott. Yeah. 40 years. He was in what I call the bondage.

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of community that never, ever gave him a place to be known. That's tragic. It's why I love this message so much, and I think it's so important. So what must be true about a community before a person will tell the truth? It's kind of profound yet simple. The wisdom of Jesus, listen to his words.

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That we belong to him is the love we have for each other. A community of believers is designed of God for love to be experienced. A few years ago, several years ago, we wrote a book called Bo's Cafe. And, Scott, we were introduced to hundreds of thousands, I didn't know they existed, all over America of de-churched Christians.

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Christians who, in the church, were terribly wounded. Instead of it being a safe place where they were experiencing love, it became a damning place where they were experiencing judgment.

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And I wish I could tell you that only happened to seven people. No, it happens every week, every month, hundreds of times. So when we think together about this safe place,

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How does a church intentionally be a place where it is safe enough for people to be known in spite of what is true about them? Let me say that again. A safe place where people can be known in spite of what is true about them. When love is conditional upon behavior, it isn't love at all. Love is love in spite of behavior.

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It's in spite of behavior. I think that's a good place to pause. We're going to start this series on the process of maturing. And I love what you just said. What if church could be a place where we could be loved in spite of the sin we knew that was in us? Absolutely. Would that be a church that people want to go to?

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Amen. We would love to see thousands of these churches across this country. We would love to see a movement start in this regard. And so that's kind of part of the heart of Living Influence, and we hope to see you again. Thanks for listening to Living Influence. We appreciate you. Just a call to action. We would love it if you would share our podcast with one or two people this week. Thanks again.