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A lot of people have a misunderstanding of when I reach certain goals, then I will be successful. We are a hyper obsessed culture when it comes to validation externally. We're constantly comparing ourselves because everything is constantly online. People should give themselves permission in such a system to not play that game and to not feel the need to compete. There are so many different paths to greatness, so many different paths to self-actualize. Find a way to play your own game. Rewrite the rules. That's the key of life.

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Welcome to She Persisted, the Gen Z mental health podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton. Let's get into it. Today's conversation is about how to step out of that race that most of us didn't even sign up for. We have Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman on the podcast today and a psychologist, coach, Columbia professor, keynote speaker, best-selling author, and the host of the Psychology podcast.

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And we are talking all about why growth isn't a destination, why self-actualization isn't something that you earn at the end of your suffering, and how to stop measuring your life by someone else's success. We talk about Dr. Kaufman's sailboat metaphor, which is one of my favorites, and you've heard it on the podcast before. And he uses this to explain what you actually need to do to move forward and what happens when you try to grow and improve and meet your goals

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without a strong foundation. So if you've been feeling behind, if you've been feeling all that pressure to compete with everyone else, this episode is all about clarifying your own goals, your own aspirations, and getting there in a sustainable way. I want to start with the sailboat metaphor because I think a lot of us get almost like overexcited with like the goals we want to set or what we want to do or where we see ourselves with regard to shifts in our mental health or our wellbeing. Yeah.

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But I think bringing it back to this metaphor and this foundation is so important. And so I'd love to hear you break down this metaphor because it's so foundational to life, but also what we'll cover today in this episode. Well, thank you. I'm really glad that you see it that way. I believe that self-actualization is a journey. It's not some sort of mountain that you climb on stepping over others on the way.

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A lot of people have a misunderstanding of Maslow's famous hierarchy of needs. They'll often see a pyramid and it turns out Maslow never drew a pyramid. Life is like a, more like a trek in an ocean where there's waves that can come crashing down at any point. You never know what you're going to get, but you have to know what port you're sailing to. And you have to have a really clear vision of where you're sailing. And if there's too many holes in the boat, it won't, the boat won't go anywhere.

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But if you're just stable, you never open up your sail either. So, you know, it takes sometimes challenge for growth. And can you kind of walk us through what is like attached onto this sail and this metaphor and also this boat, which when we're lacking that foundation, we can't not only survive, but we can't get anywhere as well.

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Yeah. So the needs in the boat for me are the needs for safety, connection, and self-esteem. If we are too deprived in those needs, we feel like we're just fighting to get the water out. We're like, oh gosh, I'm lonely. How do I...

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reduce that or I feel bad about myself or I'm hungry. You know, we're not thinking about our highest needs when we're deprived of those needs. So that's the boat. But just having self-esteem and connection and a sense of safety will not move you anywhere in the direction of your highest purpose.

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Yeah. I think it's interesting because when you talk to people about what they want for their mental health or a lot of the ways that we see people describing goal setting online, it's kind of at odds with that where they're like, okay, well, like once I have this better version of myself, then I'll build those relationships and get that connection or like the self-esteem will come after I've done all these other things.

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And I think it's helpful to kind of deconstruct that, that obviously your relationships will continue to grow and improve as you move throughout life. Same thing with self-esteem and mastery and agency and all those things. But it's also incredibly foundational and you can't move forward without that. Why do you think people kind of have that disconnect of like, no, those will come later versus like these are absolutely essential to move anywhere in life? Mm-hmm.

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Well, there is a cognitive bias that I'll be happy when. We all have it. We all fall prey to that. Dot, dot, dot. You know, when I reach certain goals, then I will be successful. But no one ever feels successful. Yeah. More than a day after reaching those goals. So we have to remember that. And...

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You know, we have to move in the direction of growth, but realize that growth is a direction, not a destination. You know, so our self-actualization is a direction, not a destination. The best we do is make the choices that are right for us as consistently as possible.

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Yeah. I do have a question for you, though, because you did mention mindset. You've talked a lot about victim mindset and self-victimizing. And I think we might go wrong when we try and have this conversation about Gen Z. What are your thoughts on that? Because that's like a lot of the criticism that you see in like larger media or on the daily cable news channel when all these studies come out about Gen Z struggling.

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Well, certainly Gen Zers don't want to be described as such. No. It doesn't feel like a positive characterization. But also, why would you want to try and do anything different if you've already been labeled as depressed and anxious? Oh, that's a good point. The victim. Yeah, that's a good point. It doesn't help. So when I talk about overcoming a victim mindset, I do so in a way that I want to help people see the ways in which they're getting in their own way, not in a way to shame anyone or to minimize anyone's suffering. Yeah.

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There are various ways that you can handle a situation that is challenging to you. And I propose an empowerment mindset that's very yes and, you know, from like improv principles. Yeah. Where – and I also call it honest love. I'm not a fan of tough love. You'll never hear me be like, oh, Gen Zers, stop complaining, you know, like a little snowflakes. If someone's committed to a victim mindset –

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Then you have to kind of let them be. But if someone is open to being a little bit empowered, you know, I think that it can really change lives. Yeah.

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And I also think people don't realize the extent to which they can bring their character strengths and signature strengths to the table to overcome hard things. Yeah. We kind of have talked about the lacking agency piece, but there's also this like mastery side of the equation. Like do people feel that they are able to get better at things? And not only if they try, will something change? Yeah.

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will they see growth and will they see improvement in their self and that this is another kind of criticism that people will throw out there that like gen z didn't have to struggle people don't tell them no everything's handed to them and that that is like the missing piece that has led to this pessimism or this despair and this this hopelessness do you think that that is something at play as well with gen z is not moving that muscle enough or wanting to build that mastery

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The mastery process, usually you don't see the motivation initially or what you'll do is like you'll get a surge of inspiration. And then if you hit a wall, a lot of people just stop. Yeah. And they're like, oh, what's – this is too much. If you weigh 600 pounds and your dream is to be 150 pounds, you got a long way to go there. Yeah.

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And so it may be frustrating to be like, oh, I lost four pounds. Great. You know, but it is great. And so what I think people need to realize is that every small win is great. It's really moving you in the direction of where you want to go. This is why I said earlier, it's a direction, not a destination. Don't get so stuck on reaching the goal, but every day make progress towards that goal, you know?

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How do people do that cognitive reframe and really bring that back to the individual moment versus like this giant unattainable goal at scale? Like, I think that's something that everyone struggles with, regardless of what area of life, is to truly celebrate those little wins or focus on those everyday moments. I'm sure students as well struggle with this in your class.

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How do you advise people to be more mindful in those moments and bring it back to those smaller goals when it kind of does feel like messaging from society as a whole does really emphasize and focus on those larger wins, those larger things that the moment to moment isn't as important or valuable?

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Well, you really have to turn the scope of attention inward to your past and your future comparison. I mean, it's easier said than done, but we are a hyper-obsessed culture when it comes to validation externally. Yeah. We're constantly comparing ourselves because everything is constantly online and we're constantly seeing other people. Maybe take a break from Instagram. Yeah. Twitter. Yeah.

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Chill. Chill on that. You know, you don't need to see other examples of other people self-actualizing. Because at the end of the day, it doesn't make any sense to try to self-actualize someone else's soul. That's their soul. It doesn't make any sense. You can't do it. And you can't do it. You know, all you can do is self-actualize your own soul. It takes meditation. It takes turning inward. It takes really hyper-focusing on the inward comparison of who you used to be and where you're moving.

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And being happy with that and being content with that. I'm not saying it's easy. Yeah. But it's a practice. I mean, when I think about the average, like, say, college student, right? Like, your day-to-day is really driven and defined by external, quote-unquote, like, success goals.

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at scale, which is like the grade that you get on this assignment, which is then your grade in the class, which is then your GPA and graduation. Like it's very external. And each small thing that you're working towards is towards this much larger external achievement. Yeah. And then when I think about like, okay, the things that you're consuming likely on social media is...

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You mentioned watching other people self-actualize. I think it's a similar thing where it's also these larger achievements or these external successes. And so I think that really reinforces this focus on these larger things versus like those day-to-day in-between moments.

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I guess it does. And having the looming idea of having to get good grades is built into the system of being pretty antithetical to self-actualization. I think a lot of these students do need to stop complaining and start love learning. And when you're in a system that you can't change, sometimes the best thing you can do is to stop complaining, I would say, and try to find the silver linings and try to find what you can get out of it that will be the best for your own personal growth.

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What I decided to do in college is I would study like eight hours a day and I started to love it. I reframed it as not, oh, I have to do this, but like, oh my gosh, I get to do this. And that simple reframing.

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changed my life. And it almost doesn't matter what it is that you're mastering. Like, let's say you take every class I took, I'd be like, this is an opportunity for me to master this new topic I've never done before. What an exciting challenge. I don't think that most college students have, you know,

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the right mindset about their own learning process. They view everything as drudgery. You know, oh, why do I have to study this? Why do I do that? And yes, you know, there's a lot of things we make young people study that's not going to help them in their future. But in a way, the process of learning how to master or learn anything, like view this as an amazing opportunity to master that meta skill, you know, which will carry you so far in life, whatever you do.

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You know, I learned how to learn and I also fell in love with the learning process. And that's coming from someone who, you know, no one thought could learn or had the capacity to learn when I was younger. So for me, it was exciting to have the opportunity that so many people take for granted.

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Do you think that reframe of I get to do this versus I have to do this, do you think there's a key ingredient there of like enjoying either the learning process or the mastery process or what you're learning about? Like, do you think if I took organic chemistry, there could be that like excitement and reframe? Oh, yeah. Okay. How does that work then? Because I think that's another thing also that people get stuck in where like,

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Sure, if it's a class in their major and they enjoy it, they get in that like, okay, I'm loving it. Don't you get excited by learning things that are so – like for me, I love to pick up something that – see, maybe that's a result of my early childhood experiences where I feel like I constantly was trying to prove to people to defy their expectations. Who would think that I could learn or understand organic chemistry? So to me, it was a fun little challenge. Yeah. I was like, oh, I'm going to be the best student in organic chemistry. Yeah. Yeah.

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For me personally, I think being able to learn something that is so outside my identity is so cheekily exciting. Yeah. And I think that, you know, like let's say that whole way of like being a cognitive athlete is similar to like being a basketball athlete. Yeah. Yeah.

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And then imagine we had a whole system where everything was predicated around in order to move up in the education system, you had to be as good as Kobe Bryant. You had to be as good as Michael Jordan. Yeah. You would constantly feel inferior about yourself.

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Although I did beat Kobe Bryant in high school in the chalk test, you know, in the physical fitness test. Oh my gosh. The mark, you have to go back and forth. Yeah. It's only one. He's definitely the GOAT. He's definitely the GOAT. That is so funny. But I went to high school with him. That's crazy. May he rest in peace. But imagine we had a system where like we made it. We forced everyone to compete in the same avenue. I mean, that's the system we've set up, which is absurd. Yeah. You know?

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People should give themselves permission in such a system to not play that game and to not feel the need to compete. There are so many different paths to greatness, so many different paths to get to where you personal greatness, called personal greatness, where you want to get in your own life to self-actualize. We really underestimate the value of learning in a community college, learning learning,

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you know, not going to college. Like more and more people are realizing that they don't need to go to college to be a great musician, to do so many things they want to do that will have so much value in the world to be a writer, you know? So my message...

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And it has always been a message based on my own personal experiences is find a way to play your own game. Rewrite the rules. I have done that continually throughout my life. Yeah. And so I really think that's the key of life. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. If people want to continue to follow along with your work, read your books, all the things, where can they do that?

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They can follow me on Instagram at Scott Barry Kaufman. The psychology podcast, after 11 years, I wrapped it up a couple of weeks ago. But there's almost 500 episodes you can catch up on if you want. Yes. Lots to go through the arc. Yes. And then Center for Human Potential. We have coaching training programs. And then my books are available wherever you can buy books. But thank you so much for asking me that and having me on.

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I will go ahead and put all those in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so glad we got to do this. So glad as well. If you enjoyed this episode of She Persisted, make sure to leave a review, subscribe, and share with a friend or family member. Follow along at She Persisted Podcast on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and more for bonus content. Thanks for listening and keep persisting.