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For you were called the freedom brothers, and we do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. Welcome to Living Influence. I'm your host, Scott Boyd, with Bill Thrall, my friend, my mentor. We've been talking about freedom, and this week we're going to start off talking about how does submission play into our freedom. And just even me saying that word causes me to cringe a little bit.

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Because of, you know, church wounds and history where, you know, you're supposed to submit to a leader or wives or submit to their husbands. And our culture kind of reacts to that a little bit. But yet, you kind of have a different take on the word submission that.

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I've loved, so why don't you tell us about that? Everything you just said, all of the above is true, unfortunately. It's a really tragically misunderstood word in its application. Let's start with Jesus himself. He did something for us. He modeled submission. We have to know that. He modeled submission. Listen to this.

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With all the intention of his heart, he let God. That's what submission means. Submission just means to let. That's all the word means. Yeah. So let's use Jesus as our model. He chose from his heart, those are key words, to let God love him. Mm-hmm.

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He chose from his heart to let God guide him and lead him into God's purpose for humanity. Yeah.

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Now, that modeling of Jesus is so critical to understanding what the word really means and the purpose of the word because it does something. Anyone who practices submission actually is gaining freedom to minister to the heart. I want to say that again. Anyone who's practicing submission...

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It has a freedom to minister to the heart. To the heart of another person. To the heart of another person. So Jesus is our model, and with tears, often in worship, we can appreciate this person, this humble person, who chose submission, and when he chose submission,

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It guided him by God to the cross. And we go, oh, wait a minute. I never thought of it that way. So that I want us to think about it, Scott, in, unfortunately, those list of things you just said. The church, in our opinion, has abused the word submission when it comes to the role of women. Because the church, over history, has been predominantly male-driven and a really bad theology—

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that somehow the men are to point down to the women and tell them, the Bible says you're supposed to submit to me, so that means you're going to submit to me. And unfortunately, women have owned that, unfortunately, or rebelled against it, unfortunately.

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But that's not what the Bible is teaching, actually. What the Bible is teaching, when it says, wives submit to your husbands, the Bible actually gives a definition of the husband they don't submit to. Isn't that interesting? Here's what the Bible says. This is the husband you're to submit to. Husbands, love your wives. Huh. I think it's easy for a woman to submit to a husband who loves her.

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But then it says to them about the husband, husbands, I really love your wives, but I want you to sacrifice your life for her best.

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Imagine, I've talked to lots of women about this. Imagine a woman being married to a man who loves her and is intentionally sacrificing his life for her best. Women line up to submit to that. But when you come at submission from an authoritarian place, and from an authoritarian place, submit to the elders, submit to the husbands.

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You are never touching the heart, but you are attacking the will. That's really important to hear that. Because now we have a battle of wills. But I'm in charge. I'm a man.

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I'm the head of the house. I'm stronger. I'm bigger. I'm smaller. I'm all these wonderful things, except what God wants me to be. So I want to come back to this premise. What if I, as a man, practice submission by letting you love me, Scott, by letting others love me? We quote it so many times. Jesus said the great evidence that we are his, we love one another.

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Scott, no one, no one can love you until you let them. Yeah. What does that mean? That means that if I don't practice submission, I will never experience love.

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Because submission is letting. It's letting. Letting someone love me. Letting somebody love me. Yeah. Well, who am I going to let love me? Well, if we backed up 10 steps, we'd say, well, I'd like to let those I trust love me. Okay, good. That's good thinking. Yeah. You don't just let anybody. Well, who am I going to let teach me truth? You hear the word let? Who am I going to let teach me truth? Mm-hmm. Who am I going to let guide me? Yeah. Yeah.

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Who am I going to let stand alongside me as we move together into the purposes of God? Yeah. So I want to be a person who is practicing submission. In our relationship, very personally, in our relationship— Between you and me. This one. Yes. I want to submit to you. I want— To let me— To let you influence my life because I trust you, Scott. Yeah.

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See, that's a really important thing. Right, just right there. Yeah. I practice submission with you. Right. And when I do, you say, well, Bill, you're going to be so vulnerable to Scott. Yeah, amen. Scott could hurt you. Yeah, probably could. In fact, he has. That's not the point. The point is...

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That if I practice submission, I become a person who can touch with truth the hearts of others. My heart. Your heart. Yeah, let's keep it personal. Yeah, keep it right here. Let's keep it right here. Yeah. So we're practicing this process together. Yeah. I trust you. I let you speak into my life. I let you guide me. And reciprocating, you're letting me teach you truth. Yeah.

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And so this is very real. Take submission. I wish we could get out of the condemnation of the Word.

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and practice its reality. Forget about how misused it's been. It's a powerful word. I personally believe it's one of the key words to the development of our character. I really do. I believe it's one of the key words. In fact, very, very, very effective people can get a lot done, and their character can be a mess until they learn to let others speak into who they are.

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I mean, I've had the example, I have had two wives. Yes. You know, my first wife died of cancer, and now I'm married again. And I get to let Eileen now influence me. And as she does, I grow. Absolutely. And by the way, I love her influence on you. Thank you. Thank you.

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Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's been good. Oh, it's been excellent. That's why I said that. I love her influence on you. I mean, I had great influence from Bev. And now with Eileen, it's different. It's true what you're saying. I'm aware that I let her influence me. Absolutely. I let her have input into my life. Absolutely. But the fruit is, is as I do that, she lets me have influence into her life.

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Absolutely. Well said. The freedom gives you access to her heart. To her heart. Now, let's say that about 50 times. Imagine one of the reasons that Jesus wanted us to have freedom is so that we would have access to the hearts of others. And even as I say that,

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Four or five or six key people came into my mind just now who have had access to my heart. My wife, Grace, has had access to my heart. We've told the story many times of how Grace trusted God one night and challenged me by asking me a question that changed my life. Bill, why won't you let me love you?

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Why won't you trust me? You see, the dynamic was there. I wasn't submitting to her. So I wasn't experiencing her love. And what was happening is I was getting deeper into my wounding because I never saw her in her submission as a solution to me and my pain.

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So it's a really important question. People may not think about it as much as I do. But I want to say this. Do you know that the people you trust are the people that are modeling for you submission? Do you know that the people you trust are the people that are modeling trusting others? Yeah. And so we have lots of associates in our lives. And most of us don't trust anyone.

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Yeah, I'm like taking it back to my business setting with the people in our company. And the people I trust, they were people who let me influence them.

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Well said. They were. And as I trusted them and let them influence me, the culture begins. A good culture begins. And it multiplies, Scott. Yeah. See, now you just said a multiplier. You added a multiplier. By the way, a true multiplier.

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So this word submission is critical. We will teach every time we can that trust is the key operative word for all relationships. Submission is right next to it. You see, there is no submission in an environment that lacks trust. Yeah, and if you're listening to us right now and you're a business leader,

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We've got a conference we want to tell you about. I don't want to go into all the details, but I want you to go check out livinginfluenceleadership.com. We've got a seminar that you could come and attend. It's relatively inexpensive. We're going to treat you like royalty. It's going to be awesome.

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It's in September. So go to livinginfluenceleadership.com to check that out. Thank you. We'd love to see you there. Let's move on from this word submission. Yeah. Which when we say submission, we mean to let. Exactly. And let's talk about giving permission. Yeah. Permission is, it's a well-used tool in your tool bag, I would say. Yeah. For Maya observing you working with others. Tell me about permission. No one.

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No one, including God, has access to your life without your permission. No one. Yeah. Now, let's take it more practical. Permission is my granting you access to me. Permission is my granting you access to me. Is permission...

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The pronouncement that I'm going to let you. Exactly. So permission is me saying to you, Bill, I want to submit to you. Exactly. I'm going to let you. I'm going to let you influence me. Right. Have access to me. And have access to me. Interesting, isn't it? Because you said you hit it right on the head. So I have this dynamic in me.

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Can't help it. It's true of all of us. I'm unbelievably self-protective. Not very good at it. Nobody is. Yeah. But we assume we are.

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None of us were designed of God to function without others, none of us. But sin caused us in that function to really hurt each other. So we're holding on to this self-protection, not even concerned in thinking about how somebody might have permission. Even those words scare people. When I share those words in a conference, I can feel people going, oh, I ain't going to give anybody permission.

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And yet we don't understand. Permission is the freedom that others have to me. In the church in Laodicea, the church in Laodicea is a holy mess. And he tells them they are. They're blind and naked and they're in bad shape. And they're going, no, we're in great shape. We're, whew, we're top of the line. He said, you missed it just a little bit. But then he does something. He seeks permission.

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He says, I stay at the door and knock. Yeah. Hear the words, Jesus' words. If anyone opens the door, I will come in. And dine with them. And I'll dine with you. Now watch the principle. Okay. God sees me better than I do in all of my reality, as dark and distorted as it might be.

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And he stands, so to speak, pursuing my permission to let him answer my greatest need. What? That's amazing, Scott. That's powerful. That's powerful.

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Now, you talked about me a little bit. One of the things I'm learning about this principle is I do. I get to talk to a lot of people. I have for many, many years. And in all of my conversations with people, some of them come because somebody sent them to talk to Bill. In all of those conversations, I am constantly looking for permission.

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constantly i'm asking questions looking for permission because i know something until i have permission i have no access to their person well bill you're talking wait i'm going to give somebody permission to actually what are they going to do when i give them access what are they going to do let's let jesus be our model again jesus is the one who just declared this church a mess

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You're blind and you're naked, you're dysfunctional. And what he said to them was, I want permission not to condemn you, but to fellowship with you. Yeah. See, I, Jesus, know the condition of your life. Yeah. It's not the condition of your life that bothers me. I have an answer for that.

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It's the person that I want a relationship with. Now, that's a good insight biblically because it's a good insight practically as we minister with people. So as I look for an opportunity for someone to give me permission, what I'm looking for is an opportunity to really honor their person. So I'm looking for ways now when I have permission to affirm that person. Yeah.

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So that in the affirmation of their person, they lose the fear of my condemnation of their behavior. In my seeking permission to give affirmation to their person, I'm reducing the tension they feel in the potential condemnation because of their behavior. I'm working with a leader and...

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They've been wounded and they're immature. And they're not aware that they're immature from their wounding. And they think they're a good leader. I can hear what this is leading. And so...

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There's a place where you want to lead that person to realize, I've been doing this on my own and I'm not pulling it off.

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But then they also need affirmed. I've seen people get this grace message, and they just affirm the guy in his brokenness. Right. And the brokenness never gets addressed. Thank you. Then it's really not grace. And it's really not grace. Really not grace. So you've said a mouthful of 10 things, and I want to address a couple of them. In that person—

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They need, you need to figure out a way for them to give you permission to anything. I don't care what it is. You know, take them fishing. Get permission to take them fishing. Just find a way for them to give you permission to something. Okay. And once you have that permission, in that moment of permission, that's a key teaching point. Now, same thing is true with any issue of the heart.

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Charlie, how are you feeling? Well, I'm pretty sad. Why? Because of whether. Charlie, could I? Here's the key. Could I talk to you about that? Yeah. Now, Charlie, I'll tell you what. You better stop. No, no, no. Could I talk to you about that? But never ask somebody, could I speak to you about that? If you're not willing to receive a no. Never ask it.

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Because if you receive a no, you are obligated to stop the conversation about that. You don't manipulate them into a yes, whereas they'll never trust you again.

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Yeah. So back to your example. Okay, this man needs attention. I would pursue areas that are on the fringe of what you see to start testing whether he'll give you permission to these areas. Yeah. And then deepen into, because the thing you don't want to do is you don't want to misuse grace. You don't want to say, hey, I'm...

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God loves you. I love you. Everything's okay. It's not okay. Grace does not wink at sin ever. It costs Jesus Calvary, so it never winks at sin. What grace does is grace provides the answer to sin, but addresses first the person. That's the key. If I'm going to affirm you

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It's not in order to get something from you. I'm going to affirm you because I've got something to give to you. And if you'd let me, this is what we're talking about. We're talking about submission and permission. Right. And so your example is excellent. Now, who do I know? Who do you know? This man...

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How do you address him? You have conversations looking for anything that will give you permission. And that permission gives you opportunity to speak only, only to the point that you have permission to. That you have permission to. And once he sees that you're honoring that, he'll give you this much more. I see. Scott, I've sat across the table from some very well-known, powerful leaders.

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This is what I do every time. I've had some of them say, thanks, Bill. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. I've had people walk away. It's okay. Yeah. In fact, I had a powerful leader just address this question that we're talking about very quickly. We sat at night just like this. We were sitting at a table at his home, and this is how he started the conversation.

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Bill, I appreciate you coming. I just want you to know I've never submitted to anyone in my life, and I don't intend to submit to you. That's how he started the conversation. And I don't know what 10 other people would have done, but I know what I did. He said, I believe you. I believe you. Right? He did. I said, I believe you. Yes. And I got up, and I shook his hand, and I said, thanks. Let me know when you'd like to talk. And I left. Yeah. Because I believed him. Yeah.

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It's important that we believe people. Yeah. We don't manipulate them into a yes. Yeah. We let them dwell in the reality of their own answer.

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I imagine your head might be spinning like mine is. Like, how in the world do I do these conversations and just go to the edge and get permission right there? And it's worth thinking about and trying to understand better. But I don't think it's going to happen today. So we want to thank you for listening to our podcast today, talking about submission and permission. We're going to continue to talk about freedom. And we hope to see you next week.

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Thanks again for listening to Living Influence. We appreciate you. We'd love it if you'd go to livinginfluence.com, contact us, and send us an email. We'd love to know what you're thinking. See you next week.