WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.480 Real Life presents the Jack Hibbs Podcast with intention and boldness to proclaim truth, 2 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.320 equip the saints and impact our culture. 3 00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:15.280 Everybody, we have an absolutely intense podcast. It might be short, but it's probably 4 00:00:15.280 --> 00:00:20.480 short just to have you survive, because we're going to be getting together with our good 5 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:25.360 friend Frank Turek. Get your brain ready. Get some a notepad ready, but you are going to 6 00:00:25.360 --> 00:00:31.560 be thrilled. Thinking about God, how do we know God's real? What's the existence of God? 7 00:00:31.560 --> 00:00:36.800 Is there proof for that? So get ready. Here we go with our good friend, Dr. Frank Turek. 8 00:00:36.800 --> 00:00:42.200 Hang on, let's dive in. 9 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:48.400 You can get the outlines of this podcast by going to jackhibbs.com slash podcast. 10 00:00:48.400 --> 00:00:54.640 Today, if this podcast lifts you up and encourages you to live a more fulfilled life in Christ, 11 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:59.640 then make sure you leave us one of those five star ratings. To us, that's like saying 12 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:05.600 amen or yes, then that rating will encourage others to listen. Now open your hearts to 13 00:01:05.600 --> 00:01:10.560 what God's word has to say to you. Here is Jack Hibbs. 14 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:16.680 Okay, then Frank, that leaves us to just dive in. It's this. What would you say are the 15 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:22.920 two, if you had to narrow it down? What are the two great arguments that the Christian, 16 00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:30.800 the believer can put forth before anyone, atheist, unbeliever, spiritualist? What can 17 00:01:30.800 --> 00:01:37.280 you give the people, Frank, that is the two top responses that we should be giving to people? 18 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:42.360 If we want to show the Christianity's true, Jack, we really only need to do two things. 19 00:01:42.360 --> 00:01:47.800 Because if these two things are true, everything else falls into place. It's like dominoes. 20 00:01:47.800 --> 00:01:53.040 The two facts you need to show is number one that God exists, and then number two that 21 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:58.360 Jesus rose from the dead. Because if those two things are true, market down Christianity's 22 00:01:58.360 --> 00:02:04.600 true. If Jesus actually predicted and accomplished his own resurrection from the dead, then we 23 00:02:04.600 --> 00:02:10.080 can actually show the Bible's the word of God. Because if he did rise from the dead, 24 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:15.560 then he's God and whatever God teaches is true. And Jesus taught the entire Old Testament 25 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:20.160 who was the word of God, and he promised the New Testament. So the two facts are, does 26 00:02:20.160 --> 00:02:24.120 God exist and did Jesus rise from the dead? 27 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:30.880 So listen to that. Okay. What would you say to somebody that would say to that, Frank? 28 00:02:30.880 --> 00:02:36.800 Okay, look, Turk, you're using the Bible to argue for the Bible, but I don't believe 29 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:43.240 in the Bible. So your claims about the existence of God, I'm not buying it, and Jesus, I'm 30 00:02:43.320 --> 00:02:48.400 not even sure if Jesus was actually a real figure. What do you say to somebody who throws 31 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:49.480 that back at you? 32 00:02:49.480 --> 00:02:55.280 Well, the first thing I'm going to say is let's deal with the God question first, because 33 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:59.800 obviously Jesus couldn't have risen from the dead if there's no God. Okay. So let's 34 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:04.160 deal with God first. And you don't need the Bible to show they God exists. I'm just 35 00:03:04.160 --> 00:03:09.480 going to mention three arguments. We don't have time to unpack them all, but three arguments 36 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:13.960 that I use when I go to a college campus to show that God exists. The first argument 37 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:19.320 is the argument from the beginning of the universe. Jack, do you know that atheists 38 00:03:19.320 --> 00:03:25.800 now are admitting that spacetime and matter had a beginning out of nothing? Now, they'll 39 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:32.280 admit that. They don't have a cause for that. In fact, it was Stephen Hawking. You know 40 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:40.280 his cause was Jack. I don't remember, but yeah, before Stephen Hawking died, he wrote in 41 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:44.520 the book, The Grand Design, these words to explain the beginning of the universe. He said, 42 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:52.120 because there is a law like gravity, the universe can and will create itself out of nothing. 43 00:03:53.320 --> 00:03:58.840 Lawless. What? To which? Yeah. I mean, that's theological what he said. Right, 44 00:03:59.320 --> 00:04:06.760 to which John Lennox said, when brilliant scientists say nonsense, it's still nonsense. 45 00:04:09.720 --> 00:04:15.480 Because first of all, gravity can't create anything. Gravity just operates on objects that are 46 00:04:15.480 --> 00:04:19.560 already created. And secondly, gravity itself was created. It had a beginning. So yeah, 47 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:24.120 can't explain the beginning of the universe. Okay. But here's the main point. Here's the main 48 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:29.080 point. Wow. If spacetime and matter had a beginning, as even atheists will admit, of course, 49 00:04:29.080 --> 00:04:33.160 they don't think it's God, but my question is, what else could it be? Because if spacetime and matter 50 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:37.960 had a beginning, whatever caused spacetime and matter can't be made a spacetime and matter, right? 51 00:04:37.960 --> 00:04:42.040 You know, it's got to be outside of spacetime. That's it has to be. Yeah. So it's got to be a 52 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:50.040 spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful to create the universe out of nothing. Personal, 53 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:54.200 why personal? Because to go from a state of nothingness to a state of creation, 54 00:04:54.200 --> 00:04:59.240 someone had to make a choice and only persons can make choices. Also, the cause would have to be 55 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:03.240 intelligent to have a mind to make a choice. So Jack, I always ask people this question. 56 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:10.520 When you think about a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent cause, 57 00:05:10.520 --> 00:05:15.800 who do you think of? God. It's God, right? Now people will say, well, Frank, how do you know 58 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:22.680 it's the Christian God? And my answer is, we don't. Yet, I mean, this could be Allah 59 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:28.360 or some other theistic or deistic God. But if we look at the evidence for the resurrection, Jack, 60 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:33.960 and we discover that Jesus really did die and rise from the dead, then we can say that the same 61 00:05:33.960 --> 00:05:42.760 being that walked out of the tomb 1,992 years ago is the same being in whose divine nature created 62 00:05:42.760 --> 00:05:48.040 the universe out of nothing. Okay? You don't get all the way to Jesus with what we call the 63 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:52.680 Cosmological argument. The argument from the beginning of the universe. But you get those six 64 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:57.000 attributes, which could be the God of the Bible. Well, it's not a bad place to start because 65 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:02.600 in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And you've often said, if you can get 66 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:07.800 past the first verse of the Bible, the rest of it's easy. That's right. Because now you've got a 67 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:13.480 God that is outside our realm who is sovereign and can do what he pleases. And it's interesting to 68 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:18.760 me that so many people who want to deny the existence of God, it seems to me, Frank, that when they 69 00:06:18.760 --> 00:06:27.400 do that, they're doing it, they're doing it for very self-serving reasons, which remarkably enough 70 00:06:27.400 --> 00:06:33.080 proves to me, to me, not to them. But to me, the existence of God himself. Because no, 71 00:06:33.880 --> 00:06:39.480 God cannot be true because I want to live my lifestyle, the way that I enjoy it. And if he's 72 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:46.920 real, then that gets in the way of what I want. Well, wait a minute. If he's real, if he's possibly real, 73 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:52.360 just the possibility of being real, you're concerned that what you're doing is sinful. 74 00:06:53.400 --> 00:06:58.280 Where does that logic or thought come from? Thus, you say there cannot be a God. There cannot be 75 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:03.560 a God as you sleep around or do whatever you do. All the while, you're actually sinning against 76 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:08.920 your own intellect. You're sinning against your own internal knowledge that I'm covering this up 77 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:14.200 because this God could exist when down deep inside, you know, you're sinning, which proves the 78 00:07:14.200 --> 00:07:18.360 existence of God. Yes, that's right. Well, that's actually the third argument for God, the moral 79 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:22.120 argument. But I want to say one thing to what you just said related to that. That's why on 80 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:27.240 college campuses, I always ask people, if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? 81 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:31.880 I love it. I love him to do that. And Jack, a lot of times people say no because they're being honest. 82 00:07:31.880 --> 00:07:35.880 It's not a head problem. It's a heart problem. They don't want it to be true. They don't want 83 00:07:35.880 --> 00:07:39.480 there to be a God because they want to be God over their own lives, right? They're not on a truth 84 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:43.240 quest, Jack. They're on a happiness quest. That's it. And they're just going to believe whatever 85 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.480 they think is going to make them happy. The problem is you can make yourself happy over the short term, 86 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:52.920 doing a lot of fun, but ultimately selfish things. But over the long term, it's a disaster. 87 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:58.120 And everybody watching or listening to us now, Jack, who's over 40 years old knows what we're 88 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:02.920 talking about because many of us have tried this ourselves. You know, I'm going to live life my way. 89 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:06.440 I'm going to do things everything my way. No, you're not. Not very long anyway. Who's going to put 90 00:08:06.440 --> 00:08:10.840 up with a meme monster forever, right? What's going to happen to your life if you just follow 91 00:08:10.840 --> 00:08:16.040 every impulse? If you just do everything you want every time, you're going to wind up addicted, 92 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:24.680 divorced, broken, alone, and probably prematurely dead. So the only way to get contentment and 93 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:31.080 eternity with God is to go straight through truth and Jesus is the truth. Frank, I talked to a young 94 00:08:31.080 --> 00:08:39.960 man, 27 years old, last Sunday at church, 27 years old. Check this out. The guy was talking. We're 95 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:45.400 talking. And he loves the Lord. And he was just expressing his love for the Bible. And I said, 96 00:08:45.400 --> 00:08:53.400 tell me your story. And he's had a tremendous life at just at 27 years of age. But he came to 97 00:08:53.400 --> 00:08:59.960 Christ because there was a void in his life. Now, look, that's easy to say. And people might say, 98 00:08:59.960 --> 00:09:04.280 yeah, yeah, I kind of understand that. But wait, wait, wait a minute. This guy went on to tell me 99 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:13.160 that he had, at his young age, he had all the girls, he had all the cars, he had all the attention. 100 00:09:13.880 --> 00:09:21.640 Frank, this guy told me he makes $50 million a year in his career, what he does. Empty, 101 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:31.000 directionless, burned out, and all of that inability for the world to bring satisfaction and 102 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:36.520 meaning led him to Christ. And truly, we talked about, it's the goodness of God that leads a man 103 00:09:36.520 --> 00:09:41.480 to repentance. That's exactly what happened in his life. And you think about the power of that. 104 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:47.000 Now, somebody might say on the scientific level, I can't prove that. I can't put that in the lab. 105 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:55.400 I cannot test that. No, maybe not. But you cannot deny someone's experience. And you hear it over 106 00:09:55.400 --> 00:10:00.520 and over again. And of course, at the pinnacle of these types of conversion experiences that are 107 00:10:00.520 --> 00:10:07.560 sustained or people like Paul the Apostle. Remarkable, remarkable conversion. And you know, 108 00:10:07.560 --> 00:10:13.240 change the course of human history. But what's amazing to me, Frank, your arguments and people, 109 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:18.440 I want all of you to get, and I'm not just saying this because Frank is a friend. Frank actually 110 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:24.440 became a friend because I read so much of what Frank has written and listened to what Frank has 111 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:30.920 produced that I reached out to him. And we were able to share in ministry. That's how Frank 112 00:10:30.920 --> 00:10:35.720 became a friend of mine. So I'm not saying that because he's my friend. I'm saying this, get his 113 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:41.480 books, get his materials, go to crossexamine, is it dot org or dot. Yeah, crossexamine dot org. 114 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:48.360 That's right. Start listening to these things. Look at his debates. And you've got to start 115 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:53.640 thanking everybody. You got to start thinking because watch this. The believer, the believer is 116 00:10:53.640 --> 00:10:59.000 still standing where the believer has always stood for 2,000 years. Notice that it's the atheist 117 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:05.080 that keep moving around all the time. You know, like a pinball machine. And yet at least, 118 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:10.840 hey, at least they've been moving closer toward the truth. They're not, they're not explaining 119 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:17.160 themselves further away from the truth. They're trying to actually so to speak, get along with us, 120 00:11:17.160 --> 00:11:22.440 but redefine things because they're starting to wake up to realization that one engineered 121 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.920 designer architect seems to make sense to all that we see. Absolutely, Jack. In fact, that's 122 00:11:26.920 --> 00:11:31.160 the second argument for God. We ought to talk about, we talked about cosmological, right? There's 123 00:11:31.160 --> 00:11:37.080 got to be a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, intelligent mind out there. But the one 124 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:42.600 that the atheists have the hardest problem with actually, Jack, is what's called the design argument 125 00:11:42.680 --> 00:11:48.440 or the teleological argument, the fine tuning of the universe. And just to give you an idea of 126 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:53.400 what kind of precision we're talking about, that if the universe were different by just a hair's 127 00:11:53.400 --> 00:12:01.080 breath, we wouldn't exist or life wouldn't exist or the universe wouldn't exist. I'm just going 128 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:07.320 to give you one out of dozens of parameters about our universe and unpack what it means. 129 00:12:07.800 --> 00:12:17.960 The ratio of the strong nuclear force to the gravitational force is so fine tune, Jack, 130 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:23.480 it's fine tune to one in 10 to the 40th power. Now, what's one in 10 to the 40th power? That's 131 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:30.520 one part in one with 40 zeros following it. Frank, I can't get my head around that number. 132 00:12:30.520 --> 00:12:36.200 Okay, here's an illustration. Take the entire North American continent from Central America 133 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:42.520 all the way to Greenland, the 51st state. That's right. And stack it in dimes all the way to the 134 00:12:42.520 --> 00:12:48.600 moon. That's 238,000 miles. And do that on a billion other North American continent. 135 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:53.240 Oh gosh. Stack them in dimes all the way to the moon, Jack. And then take all of those piles of 136 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:58.360 dimes, put them in one humongous pile mark, one dime red, mix it in, throw a friend on that pile 137 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:03.720 blindfolded, ask them to pick one dime. The chance you would pick that one marked red dime is one 138 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:09.720 chance in 10 to the 40th power. Is he going to pick that dime, Jack? That is absolutely awesome. 139 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:15.720 He's not because that's fine, too. That's just one out of dozens. Change any one of them. 140 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:21.880 We're not here. This shows that there is a designer beyond any doubt. There's a designer out there, 141 00:13:21.880 --> 00:13:30.680 Jack. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, this is cool. This is so cool because if someone's watching us right now 142 00:13:30.680 --> 00:13:35.000 and listening, they're saying, no, you know, I'm evidence-based. I'm evidence-based. You 143 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:41.160 Christians, you check your brains in at the door when you go to church. Okay, but so evidence-based, 144 00:13:41.160 --> 00:13:49.240 so are we? This God that Frank is talking about in the fine tuning of his creation. There is a guy 145 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:54.440 Frank way back when, at least then I had the honor to actually host him at our house one time, 146 00:13:54.440 --> 00:14:00.840 Dr. A. E. Wilder-Smith. I've heard of him. Yeah. Yeah. From Inegan, Switzerland, the guy had seven 147 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:07.320 earned doctorates. He a remarkable man of God. He wrote many books, but one of the books was he 148 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:13.560 who thinks has to believe. And I love that book, but one of the things that he argues about 149 00:14:14.280 --> 00:14:21.240 is that even if you do not have a Bible, and I thought he was crazy when he said this, 150 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:27.240 he said, if you don't have a Bible, God has given you another Bible that I went like, what? 151 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:32.760 And the other Bible he went on to say is the witness of creation. 152 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:37.720 Jack, you point at that out in your new book, which I'm reading through right now. 153 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:43.000 You point out, Romans 1 says that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is true, you know. 154 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:45.720 You're good, true. Well, thank you. I didn't know you were going to plug my book right now 155 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:50.840 under the podcast. So hey, I'm taking a bold stand, friends. You ought to get Jack's new book. Here it is. 156 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:57.880 Hey, I got it. I went amazon.com. I did a pre-order to see if it worked. But yeah, it works. Also, 157 00:14:57.880 --> 00:15:04.440 friends, I do not have enough faith to be an atheist. One of Frank's great, great books. But 158 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:10.280 please, again, get everything you can. But yeah, but just the thought of that, when he said that, 159 00:15:10.280 --> 00:15:15.240 it shocked me. And then I've realized, wait a minute. That's exactly the witness of Romans 1. 160 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:21.880 Even for people who don't have a Bible, there is the witness of God's scientific, and I mean 161 00:15:21.880 --> 00:15:27.400 science, real science, you'll follow the science. Yeah, why don't you follow the science? And if you 162 00:15:27.400 --> 00:15:31.480 keep following the science, you're going to do what Sir Isaac Newton did. And you're going to bump 163 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:36.920 into the existence of God. But the God of the Bible and the God of science, they don't contradict 164 00:15:36.920 --> 00:15:42.520 each other. They're in complete harmony. Yes. Because it's the same author. You know what 165 00:15:42.520 --> 00:15:49.960 contradicts Jack? The Bible and science don't contradict what contradicts are some interpretations 166 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:56.280 of the Bible and some interpretations of the natural world. You need to unpack that. But we've 167 00:15:56.280 --> 00:16:02.840 established that there's a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, intelligent mind out there 168 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:07.880 that not only created this universe, but designed it in Jack. You notice how atheists are always like 169 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:13.800 harping on Christians. Oh, you believe in a virgin birth. Yeah, we do. We have an answer for 170 00:16:13.800 --> 00:16:18.360 the virgin birth. You believe in the virgin birth of the universe and you have no cause for that. 171 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:26.440 We have a cause for the virgin birth of the universe and the virgin birth of Jesus. 172 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:33.000 You have a cause for neither. Okay. So they have no problem with the virgin birth of the universe, 173 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:37.160 but they got a problem with the virgin birth of Jesus. Come on. So good. I think it's Stephen 174 00:16:37.160 --> 00:16:43.400 J. Gould. He was the former director of Goddard Space Center. I think he wrote one of his books. 175 00:16:43.400 --> 00:16:46.920 I forget the title of the book. I don't know. You're talking about Jastro. You have it in here. 176 00:16:46.920 --> 00:16:52.520 Oh, Robert Jastro. It's Robert Jastro you're thinking about. Robert Jastro. Yeah, Jastro. He 177 00:16:52.520 --> 00:16:59.480 was the Goddard Space Institute guy and he said, he said for the, for the, yeah, for the field, 178 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:03.960 for, for the field. Um, I got, I got hang on. I just got to start to quote. And I'll remember it. 179 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:08.760 He said, for the scientists who has lived by his faith and the power of reason, the story ends 180 00:17:08.760 --> 00:17:14.760 like a bad dream. He scaled the mountains of ignorance. He's about to pull himself over the final 181 00:17:14.760 --> 00:17:21.160 rock. When he gets there, he sees a band of theologians who've been sitting there for centuries. 182 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:26.040 You just pulled that out of your head. Yeah. That's a famous quote. I, I didn't verbatim. 183 00:17:26.040 --> 00:17:31.000 It's close. I, I left out a couple of words. I can't think of them now. But Jastro basically, 184 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:37.000 he's, Jack, he was an agnostic and he said, when you look at the evidence from the natural world, 185 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:44.120 Genesis 1, 1 appears to be true. That's the point. Yeah. Yeah. In the beginning, God created heavens 186 00:17:44.120 --> 00:17:50.520 and the earth. Yeah. So Frank, hey, um, yeah, well, I just think that I can live my life the way I want 187 00:17:50.600 --> 00:17:57.000 to because if Frank, there is this God that you talk about, uh, doesn't he want me to live my life 188 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:05.800 by whatever I want? He wants you to live a life that would cause you to know him better 189 00:18:06.360 --> 00:18:11.800 to be conformed to the image of a son because you're just not here for, you know, a few decades. 190 00:18:12.360 --> 00:18:15.560 You're going to live for eternity. By the way, do you realize you're going to be dead a lot 191 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:20.600 longer than you're going to be alive? Yeah. So you're, you're here to make a choice and to be 192 00:18:20.600 --> 00:18:25.720 conformed to the image of a son. And when God puts moral boundaries around us, it's not for his 193 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:32.280 benefit. He's, he's infinite. He doesn't get anything out of us obey in his laws. It's for our 194 00:18:32.280 --> 00:18:39.720 benefit. When we stay within his moral boundaries, we're the ones that benefit. When we break outside 195 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:46.200 of those moral boundaries, we're the ones that that that get hurt. So they're for our benefit. 196 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:50.840 I mean, we tell our kids, you know, don't touch the stove. It's not for our benefit. It's for 197 00:18:50.840 --> 00:18:58.440 the kids benefit, right? Right. I mean, wow. So that's the third argument, Jack, the moral argument. 198 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:04.680 Look, everybody in the world knows that murder is wrong. Why is it wrong? It's only wrong because 199 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:12.120 there's a standard beyond us that were obligated to obey. And, and that standard can only be God's 200 00:19:12.120 --> 00:19:17.560 nature. If there's no God, then you can't say Hitler was really wrong because there's no authority 201 00:19:17.560 --> 00:19:23.640 beyond you or Hitler. It's just your opinion. And yet we know that certain things are right and 202 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:27.800 certain things are wrong. We know that murder is wrong. We know that rape is wrong. We know that 203 00:19:27.800 --> 00:19:33.560 theft is wrong. Those things are wrong. Not just because we want to have a society that functions. 204 00:19:33.560 --> 00:19:41.640 They're wrong because they violate God's nature. And God's nature is the standard of goodness 205 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:46.200 that's out there. Any deviation from goodness is what we call evil. If there's no standard of 206 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:50.760 goodness, then nothing's evil. Everything's just a matter of opinion. So with that, I got to ask 207 00:19:50.760 --> 00:19:55.240 you something. I'm just playing around here with the time that we have left with what you just said 208 00:19:55.320 --> 00:20:03.000 then. We know that that is theologically dishonest of an individual to think like that. 209 00:20:04.760 --> 00:20:07.960 We know that it's intellectually dishonest for them to think that way. 210 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:18.280 It's morally dishonest. Yes. And so I used a quote from you or I actually drew from a book 211 00:20:18.280 --> 00:20:24.040 that you wrote. I'm forgetting because I'm an old man, the title. But I was in an argument, 212 00:20:24.040 --> 00:20:30.040 just recently, I don't mean an argument. We were debating. It was a reporter regarding some 213 00:20:30.040 --> 00:20:35.480 horrible legislation in California here. And the reporter asked me, do you think it's the 214 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:42.680 Christian's place to legislate morality? And I immediately thought of Frank Turek instantly, 215 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:49.560 instantly. And because of you, I had an immediate answer. And you know what he did. He got nailed. 216 00:20:49.560 --> 00:20:54.680 Right. I mean, I got him because because of the great Frank Turek, I got him. And of course, 217 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:58.600 he just pivoted it off and went under a different topic, which is evidence that he got nailed, 218 00:20:58.600 --> 00:21:05.960 which was this. I said, you know, when you post the speed limit on a highway, that's legislating 219 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:11.160 morality. It's immoral to go over the speed limit. But I was borrowing from you. 220 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:16.600 Well, because life, even speed limit, you're right, because a speed limits imply that life is 221 00:21:16.600 --> 00:21:21.080 valuable. That's why we have speed limits. So people don't kill themselves or others, 222 00:21:21.080 --> 00:21:27.000 because life is valuable. That's a moral precept. All laws legislate morality. The only question 223 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:31.080 is who's morality? And Jack, I don't want to impose my morality. I don't want to impose 224 00:21:31.080 --> 00:21:37.480 your morality. I want to impose the morality. Amen. The one Thomas Jefferson said with self-evident, 225 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:41.640 the one the apostle Paul said, the Gentiles and out of the law have the law written on their 226 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:45.080 hearts. If you read through the book of Romans, Jack, have you ever done that? If you read through 227 00:21:45.080 --> 00:21:51.560 the Romans chapter two, chapter two was like several years ago, Jack, you may have forgotten it. 228 00:21:53.560 --> 00:21:57.720 That's where he says it. You know, that's where he says it's written on our hearts. It's written 229 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:03.080 on our hearts because it comes from God's nature. And that standard of rightness is written on our 230 00:22:03.080 --> 00:22:11.240 hearts. Now we can be talked out of that standard by bad education or by culture or by sin. But that, 231 00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:17.640 that standard is written on our hearts by God. And that's the third argument for God, by the way, 232 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:21.720 Jack. Yeah. First argument, beginning the universe, second argument, design of the universe, 233 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:25.320 and the design of life. We haven't had a chance to talk about that. And the third argument, 234 00:22:25.320 --> 00:22:29.800 the moral law. So what do we get from those three arguments, Jack? We get a spaceless, timeless, 235 00:22:29.800 --> 00:22:36.600 immaterial, powerful moral, personal creator who created all things and sustains all things. 236 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:40.280 Jack, this is the God of the Bible. We haven't even opened the Bible yet. 237 00:22:40.280 --> 00:22:43.720 Isn't that awesome? Yeah. We haven't even opened the Bible yet. 238 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:50.600 In fact, let's keep the Bible closed. Yep. And let's talk about, you mentioned about life, 239 00:22:51.320 --> 00:22:59.160 about, please expound. Okay. Well, let's just take the, let's say you're walking along the beach 240 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:03.960 down there and hunting to Jack. And you look down in the sand and it says, John loves Mary. 241 00:23:04.760 --> 00:23:08.120 What do you assume? The crabs came out of the water and made that message. 242 00:23:08.120 --> 00:23:13.560 The waves made that message. No, you're going to say that there had to be an intelligent 243 00:23:13.560 --> 00:23:19.000 beam writing John loves Mary because we know natural laws don't do that, right? 244 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:23.640 Right. Well, you know, the longest word we've ever discovered is in every one of your 40 trillion 245 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:30.040 cells. Yep. That's right. It's 3.2 billion letters long, Jack. That's, that's the DNA. That's your 246 00:23:30.040 --> 00:23:38.440 genome. Yep. Every living thing has DNA. And if John loves Mary requires a mind for that, 247 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:45.960 for that message, doesn't a message that's 3.2 billion letters long also require a mind? 248 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:49.400 Yep. Yeah. The answer is yes. Wherever there's a program, there's a programmer. 249 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:55.400 A very big mind. That's right. That's right. Isn't it, is it A.W. Tozer or is it 250 00:23:55.480 --> 00:24:01.000 C.S. Lewis that says that when we try to contemplate God, it's more, it's better for us to approach 251 00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:08.680 him more as a mind than as a physical being. Oh, totally. Yeah. That's a heavy thought. 252 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:15.480 In fact, here's, I do this in stealing from God, Jack. In fact, I ask people to, to forget the 253 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:23.320 word God for a second and just think of this. Who is the source and sustainer of all things? 254 00:24:23.320 --> 00:24:31.640 Who is the source and sustainer of all things? Whoever that is, that's what we mean by God. 255 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:37.400 Exactly right. Wow. Because you know, I'm not the source and sustainer of all things. You're 256 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:44.360 not the source and sustainer of all things. Who is? Yeah. Wow. You know, it's amazing because 257 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:53.000 being here in California, I'm predisposed to think a certain way in the sense of this. Neither 258 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:58.680 is government God, which is a really hard thing for some of our California politicians to come 259 00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:06.200 to the conclusion that they're not God really frustrates them. But just the overwhelming witness, 260 00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:11.560 and you know, you mentioned something that caused me to think up the word eschatological, 261 00:25:11.560 --> 00:25:18.760 the eschatological witness of God's word, where otherwise known as Bible prophecy. You could 262 00:25:18.760 --> 00:25:26.200 prove the existence of God if you could say, did wasn't written down in advance a thousand years 263 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:33.400 before it ever happened that there would be a man that would be on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. 264 00:25:34.520 --> 00:25:41.800 And that he would be crucified in his hands and his feet, right? That's right. And David prophesied 265 00:25:41.800 --> 00:25:46.280 that a thousand years before Jesus was born. Now, you might say, well, that's one verse. 266 00:25:47.080 --> 00:25:53.480 Okay, you're right. That's one verse. But 743 years before Jesus was born, Isaiah said 267 00:25:54.120 --> 00:26:01.160 that he would be born of a virgin. In Bethlehem, Micah 5 verse 2, when you start friends, 268 00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:05.960 when you start to accumulate the claims of the Bible, and you're a lot of, let's be honest, 269 00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:10.840 Frank and I have a really hard time with people who spout their mouth off without researching. 270 00:26:10.840 --> 00:26:14.520 Oh, you can't trust the Bible. There's a bunch of flaws in it. Can you find one, please? 271 00:26:14.600 --> 00:26:19.240 Will you produce one? Write a book. You make a billion bucks. You can't do it. 272 00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:25.720 You know what, Jack, even if they could find a flaw, that wouldn't negate the overall truth that 273 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:32.520 Jesus, the God exists in Jesus rose from the dead. And even if they could, and they did find a 274 00:26:32.520 --> 00:26:39.560 flaw, it would be a translation flaw. Yeah. Not that God's got some deficiency. You know what, 275 00:26:39.560 --> 00:26:43.160 Augustin said about that, Jackie said, if we think we found an error in the scriptures, 276 00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:48.440 there are three possibilities. Either the manuscript is faulty, which could be, right? Because 277 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:53.720 the original is what is inherent, not the manuscript. The manuscript is faulty. The translation 278 00:26:53.720 --> 00:27:07.080 is bad. Or number three, you just don't understand. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So, 279 00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:14.040 so listen, with a few moments we have left, tell people what's going on? What's next? I mean, 280 00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:18.520 your ministry has never been bigger. You're impact. It's just awesome. God has really, 281 00:27:19.080 --> 00:27:27.880 God has really raised you up in a national, international level. Tell us about the ministry. 282 00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:33.160 And where's it going? Crossexamine.org, Jack, what we do is we go to college campuses, 283 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:36.600 high schools and churches, and we present the evidence that Christianity is true. 284 00:27:36.600 --> 00:27:40.360 Largely from this book, I corrode with Dr. Geister, called, I don't have enough faith to be an 285 00:27:40.360 --> 00:27:45.080 atheist. And we go to a lot of college campuses. I'm doing some work with Charlie on that too, 286 00:27:45.080 --> 00:27:49.640 Charlie Kirk. If he goes to college campuses as well, he's getting great audiences there. 287 00:27:50.760 --> 00:27:54.920 And we do that. We have a podcast called, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. 288 00:27:54.920 --> 00:28:00.440 We do two of those a week. We got a TV program. And we're now, Jack, we've taken the best 289 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:05.480 apologetics material that we have and other apologies have had. And we've put them so far into 290 00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:11.640 13 different languages on websites all over the world. We're translating them into Arabic and 291 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:19.560 French and Afrikaans and Chinese and Russian and Ukrainian. All of these different languages, 292 00:28:19.560 --> 00:28:25.480 because people outside of the United States, and that's 95% of people, Jack, need to hear the 293 00:28:25.560 --> 00:28:33.720 evidence for Christianity too. So we're spent a lot of time with AI to do that. So we are 501c3. 294 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:38.040 We need donations to do this because it does take a lot of money to do this. We've got people 295 00:28:38.040 --> 00:28:43.160 all over the world now who are helping us translate this stuff. So if they go to crossexamine.org 296 00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:47.320 and click on donate, they can help us out. A hundred percent of their donations go to 297 00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:52.280 ministry zero percent to buildings. We don't have any buildings. We're virtual all over the world. 298 00:28:52.840 --> 00:28:58.360 Yeah, listen everybody. Please, I don't usually do this, but I've known Frank for years 299 00:28:58.360 --> 00:29:04.520 personally. I know his family, their lifestyle. I can promise you this. What he just said is 300 00:29:04.520 --> 00:29:11.000 100% true. If you want to join in the great commission, then you're going to want to throw 301 00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:17.240 everything you can in his direction. Because look, you may not have the ability or the footprint, 302 00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:22.280 but you can support someone who does. And here's the beautiful thing about 303 00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:28.520 advancing the cause of Christ in the name of Jesus. Some of us are goers. In this case, 304 00:29:28.520 --> 00:29:34.760 Frank is a goer. Some of us are goers. And some of us are senders. But one thing is certain, 305 00:29:34.760 --> 00:29:40.440 we're all in this thing together. I can't generate a platform. Maybe you're not supposed to, 306 00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:46.440 but maybe you're supposed to send money to this direction. And in this day and age, everybody, 307 00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:53.240 I think you know this already. In this day and age, it's getting really hard to support a humble, 308 00:29:53.240 --> 00:30:01.960 biblically based, Christ-centered, authentic ministry. But when you find one, get behind it. I do 309 00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:08.040 believe that it's one of the responsibilities of we, the believers, to search out reliable ministry 310 00:30:08.040 --> 00:30:12.680 in such as Frank's and get behind it. So I know that you're on the real life network, but we're 311 00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:17.240 going to be bringing a lot more of you on. I know. That's right. That's populating that with more 312 00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:26.040 of your content as well. But you guys cross-examine.org, follow Frank everywhere he's at. You'll be thrilled. 313 00:30:26.040 --> 00:30:33.080 And I got to say, get your junior hire early on, your high schoolter. Send links to your college 314 00:30:33.080 --> 00:30:37.720 kids because they've got to start thinking. We got to train our kids to think critically. It is 315 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:42.600 a must. And Frank, you are leading the way on that. I'm so proud of you. I love you so much, 316 00:30:42.600 --> 00:30:48.840 and you and Stephanie are just dear to Lisa and I. And we just think the world of you guys, 317 00:30:48.840 --> 00:30:53.480 and we love what you're doing. Cross-examine.org, everybody. Frank, final words. 318 00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:58.680 Jack, you blessed me so much, brother. Love you and Lisa and your family and the church. 319 00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:03.160 But what a great church. We just love Calvary Chapel Chino Hills. They love you. A lot of that, 320 00:31:04.120 --> 00:31:10.520 it is the Lord, Jack, but it's also you because you set the right tone. You're so enthusiastic and 321 00:31:10.520 --> 00:31:16.360 you're so eager to share the truth of the scripture with people. It's not just fire insurance. You're 322 00:31:16.360 --> 00:31:21.480 not just preaching about fire insurance. You're getting people sanctified to make them disciples. 323 00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:25.720 That's what we're here to do, Jack. And we're both in the fourth quarter. We have to pick up the 324 00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:32.680 pace, bro. Let's go it. I'm sleeping around. Let's go. All right, man. Love you and we'll talk 325 00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:35.160 you soon. I love you, brother. God bless. Thanks. God bless.