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Drew, I want to be successful. I'm really trying to get it together over here. You need to get it together. Just things have not been falling my way for the past 12 years at all. You know, the internet is full of a lot of hokey pieces of content talking about life hacks and mind hacks and success hacks. And, you know, most of them involve some configuration of alarm clocks and ice and bathtubs. And...

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Yeah, that didn't really work for me. So let's actually talk about what the psychological research shows can completely hack your brain towards being more oriented towards success. So we've got five topics here, and I want you to walk me through these and explain how I'm finally going to be successful enough that my mom is proud of me. Okay. I'm teaching you today. Okay.

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All right, let's do this. This wasn't on the job description when you applied. This was not. I need a researcher, podcast producer, and life coach. Life coach. The podcast that's saving the world one fewer fuck at a time. It's the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast with your host, Mark Manson.

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Find the pain you enjoy. Mmm. We all have a little bit of masochism in us. There's like a certain area of our lives that...

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we become masochistic to a certain degree. And I personally think that that's probably the area of our life that we're gonna end up having an advantage in. Another way to think about it is just like, what is the bowl of shit that you don't mind eating that most people do? And a lot of this is, it's personality based. Like you don't teach yourself to like a bowl of shit that you don't actually like. Like there are gonna be some things that you just naturally

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enjoy doing or don't mind doing that most people fucking hate doing or it stresses them out or freaks them out or scares the shit out of them find those things because that's going to be your competitive advantage um it's almost like i think when when thinking about skills or talent people again tend to

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focus almost entirely on the positive. Like, what am I good at that other people maybe aren't as good? Even if you're good at something, there's gonna be a lot of other people who are good at it. But it's like, what can you stomach that most other people can? Like, what's the bullshit that

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you kind of secretly enjoy, that you get like a satisfaction out of that most people don't. And that's probably the secret sauce. You know? And I think in my case, it's two things. One is just, I think the self-consciousness or the anxiety and self-doubt that comes with writing or creating in general, I enjoy it to a certain extent. Like I just, I really love

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the creative process, the actual process itself, like not just like fantasizing about ideas, but like actually making the thing and seeing how bad it is and then trying to make it better and seeing how bad that is and then trying to make it better. Like that's, that really enlivens me. And then I think the other thing I think I'm just built for is, I don't know, I don't really mind the haters and the feed, like the bullshit, you know, that come at me. Like I don't- You don't let it bother you. I mean, it affects you, but you don't let it bother you. I think, yeah.

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It'll like ruin my lunch, but that's about it. And then you're over by lunch. Whereas me, I'm still thinking about like that thing I fucked up 10 years ago. So yeah, I totally get it. That's what's keeping you up at night. That's what's keeping me up at night. No, for real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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No, I get that. I think for me, I like the I think I think I'd call it like the pain of learning. Yeah. For whatever reason, I've always just like I've just that's just one of my kind of core values is like learning. And there's a lot of like discomfort that comes with that, too. You know, just that's what got me through school. I don't think I was ever actually the smartest person. I was just like always like so like I had to figure this out. You know, I had to I like to sit down and figure it out.

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Do you think your tolerance for boredom is higher than most? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I, I believe that knowing the academic papers I've sent to you to have you read instead of me, I believe. Yeah. Oh God. If you get a good one of those, man. Yeah. Hell yeah. It's fucking rough, dude.

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I heard this years ago. They call it ass power. You have an ass power. So you can sit your ass in a chair and work through just figuring shit out. And whether that's an academic paper or some new software or something like that, I love figuring out a new program. There's people who just hate that. Or like spreadsheets. I'm good. This is... Oh, my God. This is...

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I'm with you there. I love that kind of stuff. There was this, there was a story I heard years ago about this. Um, it was the, the state patrol. I went to a talk for the state patrol and they had a canine unit there. Okay. Um, they were talking about how they, uh, train and select dogs and everything like that. So what they do is they'll, they'll go out to a field and it's like full of just brush and, you know, bushes and it's whatever. And they take their favorite toy and they'll throw it out there and it's hidden, buried. They don't show them where it is or anything like that. And they turn them loose. Yeah.

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And they don't select the dogs that necessarily find it the fastest. They select the dogs that don't quit, which I thought was really interesting. And when I heard that, I was like, yeah, I'm not the fastest or smartest dog. I'm the one who won't quit until I find the ball. That's so interesting. Yeah, I love that story. So, yeah.

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Yeah. There's like, there's so many areas of life that are like that too. Absolutely. Absolutely. Whatever that is that seeking or that I got to figure this out. I got, I, I know there's an answer to this and I have to figure it out, especially when I know there's an answer to something. I'm like, I know this is figure outable. Yeah. I can do it. It's like, that sets me off.

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I feel like sometimes my advantage is just, it's not even, like, I think people think that I don't give a fuck of what other people think. Whereas it's more accurate to just say that I'm oblivious to what other people think. Like, I'm just so in my own little world.

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Like I remember I was in high school and I'm like I'm super unathletic. And I went to I went to a small school that because there are so few kids, we all had to sign up for a sport. So I signed up for cross country because the only alternative was football and I didn't want to get the shit knocked out of me. So I signed up for cross country, even though I was a terrible runner.

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I was so fat and slow and out of shape. I was the worst runner on the team by a large margin and I remember we went out for the first cross-country meet I think it was like four or five miles or something. I had never run that far in my life So we start to race Everybody runs out in front of me. I'm just like trotting along I get maybe like two miles in and I'm exhausted I just start walking and I'm walking and I'm walking I'm by myself for like a

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30, 40 minutes. The race that started after us begins and those kids start passing me. And I'm just like, at this point, I'm like way off in the woods by myself, you know, and I'm still walking. It was like, I remember all these like high school girls are running past me and they're like, don't give up, keep going. And I was like, go fuck yourself. And I just keep walking and walking and walking.

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And, like, finally I get to the finish line after the next race had finished. And it's literally just my dad and my coach there. Yeah. And I'm like, this sucks. I want to go home. Whatever. And so I go to school the next week. And we used to have these, like, announcements. And they kind of announced, like, the sports from that weekend. And my coach gets up.

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And he announces, first of all, nobody on my school's team placed or won anything. And like everybody knew that. And but then the cross country coach gets up in front of like the whole school. It was like 100 people, the whole school. And he's like, I want to give out an award today. And I'm like, oh, maybe somebody did finish. And he's like, he calls my name, Mark Manson.

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Everybody starts clapping. And I'm like, I'm like, are you like, I thought he was trolling me. I thought he was like trying to embarrass me. And he told me it was, he said it was the most inspirational thing that he had ever seen. What? Because he said that half of the team quit after like two miles. Oh, yeah. And like nobody placed. And like it was just this horrendous and embarrassing showing. And I walked the entire route. And I let all the next race pass me.

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And, but the funny thing is he was like telling me how inspirational it was. And I remember I was sitting there like I went up and got like this like trophy or something. I remember thinking, I was like, it never occurred to me to even quit. Like I never even. Yeah. Yeah. It didn't even, I was just like, whatever. Okay. This race goes by, whatever. Like, anyway, it's obliviousness can be an advantage. Yeah. No, for sure. For sure.

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Focus on what you can control and ignore what you can't. I think this one, to use your phrase, people give too many fucks about the wrong things. Right. I think. And a lot of times what that is is that we're trying to control things we just can't control. Yeah. Right. People's feelings, people's actions, other people just in general. I think we try to do that a lot. Those are kind of obvious ones. If you're aging, you're getting older, stuff like that, people worry about that kind of thing. Worrying about the past. You know, all these ones are pretty common.

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I would say, though, too, like your emotions, you can't really control your emotions, though you can control your reaction to your emotions. I hate that term. OK. Control your emotions. Yeah. I think it is a complete misnomer and I think it really leads people astray. I get I couldn't not tell you how many emails I've gotten over the years of people saying, how do I control my emotions? And I'm like, you can't that it's the animal part of you. It just happens.

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And what you have to do is take the smart human part of you and tame the animal part of you and be like, don't shit on the carpet, bad dog. Go to your room. I mean, that is essentially just what self-discipline is in a nutshell, is kind of like the higher order, your neocortex training and subduing your more animalistic side. But yeah, I mean, this is the classic Stoic thing, right?

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Focus on what you can control. Be at peace with what you can't. And I would throw in there most things you can't control. So beware of obsessing too much or getting too caught up in all the things that are going on outside of you that...

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That can simply be distracting or draining on you. The emotional piece is super important. You can't control the emotion, but you can control the response to the emotion. You can't control other people, but you can control your response to other people, right? Like I can't control if a friend is an asshole, but I can control

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how I confront him. I can control the conversation I have with him around his behavior. I can control whether I hang out with him again or not. I hate to bring this back to responsibility. It feels like we always fucking bring everything back to responsibility, but that's where the responsibility piece comes in. By focusing on what you can control, you are then forced to take responsibility for the things you can control because

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Once you recognize the things you can control and change, then the only excuse for not changing is that you didn't do anything. Yeah. Yeah. I've noticed a lot lately, you know, I've talked about my sleep problems a lot. And a lot of times if I wake up in the middle of the night and I can't go back to sleep, my mind starts to turn. And a lot of emotions start coming up during that, too. And it's usually like I'm worrying about something.

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um and getting like real fatalistic about it and it's like kind of it's it's pretty intense emotions sometimes too i've really trained myself to be like ah this is this this will pass yeah this too shall pass and that's the reaction i've chosen with that that's helped me a lot and i go back to sleep a little bit better that's that's been part of my uh sleep journey this year too yeah um just doing that whole reframe like oh this is a temporary thing it's like

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Tomorrow is not necessarily going to suck when I wake up or my life is not going to get any worse. Actually, this will pass. I'm going to let that go. You know, it's funny you bring that up. Like one of the best thing, you know, as we've talked about before, my wife, Fernanda, she's struggled with sleep her whole life. One of the biggest things for her was when she started meditating and what she realized, it was really interesting because.

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Because I think a lot of people who struggle with sleep, part of it is that they fall into that doom loop of like, you know, maybe you lay down, you put your head on the pillow, your mind starts worrying about something. And then you realize your mind is worrying about something and you're like, oh, God, I'm worrying about something. I'm never going to sleep. And then you like –

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then that kicks the loop in the gear. And you're like, well, now I'm worrying that I'm worrying. Oh God, now I'm worried about everything. Now I'm never gonna sleep. And it becomes this kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. And she's not a huge meditator, but one of the most effective things that she found was simply meditating for 10 or 15 minutes before bed, because it helped her, if she put her head on the pillow

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that worrying thought came up, it allowed her to just let that thought go and not get caught in that loop. And just simply by not getting caught up in that loop, it made everything else flow much easier. Yeah. So those are things you can't control necessarily. I think there's a few things that people can control that they don't though too. Okay.

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Things like boundaries, that sort of thing. What you consume, like media consumption. I think people get caught up in news cycles or whatever it is, and they're like, well, I can't control all these crazy things going on in the world. Yeah, you're right. You can't, but you can control what you consume and what you pay attention to. Can I just go on a tangent here? Oh, please. I'll allow it.

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So I have this weird thing where bad TV shows, I know all the platforms have analytics and they're measuring watch time and they're basing their production budgets on watch time of previous shows. So if I start watching a Netflix show and it's bad,

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I turn it off as soon as I possibly can because you don't want to reward bad content, right? It kills me when people I know are like, yeah, that show was terrible. And I'm like, yeah, I turned it off in episode one. And they're like, I finished the whole season. I'm like, yeah.

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I'm like, stop doing that. You're promoting bad behavior. I'm like, this is particularly salient for me right now because Three Body Problem came out recently, and it's one of my favorite sci-fi books, favorite fiction series ever, and the show was complete garbage, and everybody I know...

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watched the whole thing and didn't like it. And I'm like, they're going to make more. Yeah, this this is why this is why we don't have nice things. So anyway, don't finish bad Netflix shows. Carry on that. There is a larger conversation under that, though, like a personal responsibility around your media consumption. If you don't like the landscape, change your own behavior there. And that does have an impact. I know it's small and whatever, and it's an individual on the individual level, but

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It does have an impact, and I think we all have a responsibility around that. And again, that's paying attention to what you can control. The biggest thing you can control is your attention. In today's media environment, I mean, I joke about the Netflix thing, but in seriousness, the social media algorithms...

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that the news companies rely upon, they notice your engagement, right? So it's like block them, stop following them, stop reading them, stop clicking on articles, stop watching videos of people you don't respect or you don't like, because that simply reinforces to all the algorithms that, hey, we should show this to more people. I feel like everybody should understand that in 2024, but sometimes it seems like people don't. Like if you hate something,

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The best thing you can do is block it and not engage with it. Right. I got another one for you. This is an example that a lot of people, I think, think they don't have control over, but they do, which is who you love. I think that's more of a choice than most people think. I think it's actually almost entirely a choice. There's that whole like kind of a cliche like, oh, you can't help who you love. You can't help you like. And actually, I think there's a lot more control over that than we think.

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And I first came across this idea actually in Derek Sivers' book, How to Live. And he had this whole section on you. You can choose to love anybody who is around you. That is a choice you can make in a relationship. It is. It's a constant choice you make on who to love. But it's also just like if someone's around, you don't even like them. I think you could actually choose to like them eventually and love them.

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Because there's that emotional side that we've already talked about you can't control. Yeah. But I think there's a deeper type of love that you can control that you choose. I think you can choose to empathize. Okay. And I think you can choose to take on the perspective of somebody...

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completely openly and non-judgmentally. If you do that in a very radical and compassionate way, is that the same thing as love? I don't know. As you know, the definition of love is super murky, especially in the English language. But I agree with you that your disposition towards somebody is largely within your control. And I would even say, so to your point, those unconscious emotions that emerge. If you go on a date with somebody and you just find yourself completely infatuated and

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kind of head over heels with them. A lot of that is because they are reflecting back to you certain values and characteristics that you have chosen to seek and prioritize. I look back at this like I think back to some of my...

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Some of the women that I dated when I was younger and it really did not go well. And I can see that part of the reason it didn't go well is because I was prioritizing the wrong things in a partner that I look for. I like most young, immature people. I prioritize really superficial. Yeah. And and that gets you in the trouble. And I think as you get older, you realize that you should deprioritize those things and prioritize other things.

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deeper, more intimate things. And then that will be reflected in the emotions that emerge around the right person. Okay. That's a very long-winded way of saying, you're right, Drew. How wise. In some way, yeah. How wise. Yeah, yeah.

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Okay, so yeah, how does this make you, how does only focusing on what you control make you more successful? I think part of this is, it's almost like the essence of productivity, of like expending your time and energy on things that will generate positive change for you. If you're expending most of your time and energy on...

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reacting the bullshit that's outside of your control, then by definition, that is a waste of time and energy, right? So I think it's almost like the crux of productivity is this ability to focus on what's within your control and then what's also like the highest leverage thing within your control.

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Some of it too is just like freeing up that mental and emotional space, like not getting bogged down in distraction, not getting bogged down in outrage and emotional overreacting and drama with people that ultimately you kind of don't really care about.

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It's almost like it frees up your energy to be directed in the most efficient direction possible. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think, too, there's the concept of locus of control in psychology. Yeah. You have an internal locus of control where these are the things I can control and you look for the things you can control versus external locus of control.

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these things are happening to me. I have no control of it. This trains you to kind of find the things you do control in your environment and can have an impact on. And like you just said, be more efficient with it and can generalize to other areas of your life. It always blew me away how much internal locus of control just like maps onto almost every positive life outcome in the research. Like it's just...

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happier, more successful, more productive, better relationships. Like boom, boom, boom, boom. You can go down the entire list and it's generally internal locus of control. So that's what we're here to do. Yeah. Teach people internal locus of control. So what's the next one? Uh, the next one, turn off the autopilot. I need some help with this one, Mark. What's, what's your autopilot?

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I'm very much a creature of habit. Yeah. And if they're healthy habits, sure, that's fine. But I just notice any change in my environment, I don't like it, like, you know, coming out here to LA and stuff like, oh, I don't have my gym and I don't have my, you know, my whatever, my little coffee shop that I like or all that kind of stuff. And I definitely get into those routines and I feel those kind of safe, comfortable areas of my life that I really like to retreat to.

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I feel like, I don't know, I just feel like you're way more open to experience than I am. Not way more, but quite a bit more. Sure. And you see you're more adaptable with it. That's kind of a personality thing, I think. But I don't know. I think there's also something to being able to just be a little bit more spontaneous than I am sometimes. I personally feel like a certain amount of chaos. Mm-hmm.

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is probably optimal. There's a great, like one of my favorite movies is Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight. And there's a scene with the Joker where he's talking to Harvey Dent. And he says, inject a little bit of chaos into your life. And I always love that line because it's, I do feel like a modest amount of chaos is probably more optimal than zero chaos because it's,

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I think a certain amount of unpredictability and spontaneity can ignite a lot of insight, a lot of growth, a lot of excitement and meaning and purpose. And I don't know, it just makes life a lot more interesting. I also think you can kind of intentionally inject that chaos yourself. Like you don't have to do something crazy and destructive.

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I think we can find unpredictability or disrupt that routine or that autopilot in a way that's effective. Like I met, I was at a dinner recently and I met a professional MMA fighter. And she was saying that once a year, she gives herself a goal that feels impossible, a physical goal that feels impossible. And then she goes and does it. Yeah. And so last year she climbed Everest with zero mountain training. I was like, okay, I'm never gonna fuck with you.

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Not that you were before, but you really are now. Yeah, but like she was kind of like, she was like kind of telling the table this is like an inspiration. She's like, yeah, I just always find stuff. Like one year, you know, she went, she like spontaneously, she like walked like 100 miles or something and didn't stop till she finished. And, you know, everybody's like, oh, that's cool. And then they were like, what'd you do this year? And she was like, oh, I climbed Everest. They're like, do you climb mountains? She was like, no. Jeez.

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My God. I was like, okay, I'm going to dial it back a little bit. But I like that concept of pick something that is almost irrationally difficult and just see if you can do it. Will Smith used to have this thing that he used to say to me. He said that he was like, I used to try to bite off more than I can chew, and then I'd figure out how to chew it afterwards. And he was very aware that...

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We tend to our assumption of our own capacity is is is Generally as a rule always below our actual capacity and so he would intentionally Set himself up to do things do more things than he thought he was capable of so like he I remember he told me He was like yeah when I started doing movies I went to my manager and I was like we're gonna do an album and

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And the manager's like, whoa, our schedule's booked the next two years. There's no time. And he's like, no, we're going to do an album while I'm doing the movies. And his team was like, that's impossible. And he's like, we're going to figure it out. And he fucking did, right? So it's you intentionally set those kind of impossible bars together.

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and then your brain starts setting to inventing and innovating new ways to find them. Also, when I was thinking about this, I couldn't help but think about that Seinfeld episode. Did you ever see the episode where George Costanza does like the opposite thing? Yeah, that's a great episode. It's like one of the best Seinfeld episodes.

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For listeners who haven't watched Seinfeld, there's a character, George Costanza. He's kind of like Jerry Seinfeld's best friend in the show. And he's just kind of a loser. Like, everything he does, he's a mess. He's always screwing things up. He's single. He's blowing dates. Like, his family, his parents are assholes to him. He's just a classic...

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Loser and then there's a lot of dark psychology Yeah, and then there's one episode where he gets so fed up with his own life that he's like I'm just gonna do the opposite of everything. I would normally do it so like He goes in the work and he starts cursing out his boss and tell out of his boss how stupid he is that his boss is like Wow, I really needed to hear that you know what you're due for a raise and then like he goes on a date and he's like Saying all the opposite stuff that he normally says that this like gorgeous woman is like

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completely falls in love with him. He's like, I don't have a job. I live with my mom. I'm bald. I'm short. She's like, hey, she's like, wow, you're so honest. That's so sexy. Yeah. So.

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It's the Costanza theorem of like, if you feel stuck in an area in your life, try the opposite. Yeah. See what happens. It sounds so simple because it's like, yeah, you're in a rut. So just do something different, right? But we don't think of that. We don't. We get so comfortable even in the ruts. You know what I mean? I don't know what that is. And I'm very much, like I said, a creature of habit because of that, I think, too. It's just the you get your comfortable spaces. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

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Yeah, well, I like this because it it. I mean, aside from pushing comfort zones, it it helps us redefine what we consider possible and impossible. Right. Like if we usually kiss up to our boss. Maybe being bluntly honest and borderline offensive. Yeah.

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you'd be shocked at what's possible. Maybe that actually does go better, right? Or, you know, putting work goals on your plate that feel impossible today. Turns out, actually, it's like...

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you have more capacity than you thought you did. Right. Yeah. Speaking of which, the next one, adopt a 10x mindset. What is a 10x mindset? The basics of it, though, is that we all kind of just limit ourselves. We think too small. And it makes sense because if you want to do anything big, you have to think big, right?

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I think you're really good at this too. Another area you could impart some wisdom onto me, I think here, but we do, we limit ourselves. You know, you've several times on the podcast told the allegory about the elephant who gets tied to the fence post and doesn't realize you can break away from it. That sort of thing definitely happens a lot, I think. And we just, we set very small goals and we're,

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then I think some of us wonder why we don't have more. And I don't know what is, what's the key to thinking bigger. Do you think you have a very good sense of the big picture? I think a lot of times you tend to aim high, shoot high and you fail sometimes with it, but most of the time, what's your secret? That's my secret. Uh, I, first of all, I like zooming out. I like the big picture. That's just like my brain kind of goes that direction naturally. Um, um,

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I like asking myself, what does this look like three years from now? What does this look like five years from now? And I think that's an important tendency to develop because I think it's so easy to get. Everybody tends to get caught up in like the immediate future. Everybody's worried about next month or next quarter or next year. And I like to ask myself, like, if I did what I'm doing this month for the next 10 years, where am I going to end up? Yeah.

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Okay, how do I optimize for that? So I think part of it is time scale, zooming out and looking at time scale. Because a lot of what, you know, the 10X rule, one way to think about it is it's, to get the 10X of anything, you're gonna have to compound your way there and compounding requires time. So like, what's the best way to leverage time the next five to 10 years? So that's one element of it.

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I think the second element of it is just, like, big goals are more exciting. They're sexier. They feel—I mean, obviously, if you manage to accomplish them, they feel better. And then I also—to come back to the Will Smith point, like—

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we tend to underestimate what our actual capacity is. So if you were overshooting what you perceive your capacity to be, you're actually probably gonna end up much closer to your real capacity. So you're actually maximizing your brain quite a bit more. And then of course there's like that old cliche which is shoot for the stars and even if you miss, you'll land on the moon, Drew. I think it's the other way around.

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Shoot for the moon, and if you miss, you'll land among the stars. The stars are further. Okay. Yeah, I see what you're saying. I have qualms with this Instagram, this inspirational Instagram quote. I'll take it up with somebody else, though. Right.

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But yeah, I think it's a combination of a lot of those things. I think, yeah, you hear about this a lot in money and business and stuff like that. And I think there's some business gurus out there, even like Ramit Sethi talks about this a lot where you can – this is kind of a variation on the 10x rule. I think you can cut your expenses to zero, right? You could do that. You cut your expenses all the way to zero, but that's the limit on that.

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On the other side of it though, there's no limit to how much you can make. So there's like a switch in thinking there too, over like what to 10 X or what to optimize for. But I think you can apply that to other areas as well, not just like money and business and stuff like that. I think you could apply it to, I'll go back to the relationships thing again. You can cut out the problems in your relationship and as much as you can, as much as it's practical, right?

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But is there is there a limit on how deep your connection can go? Is there a limit on the number of things you can learn about your partner? Stuff like that. Like to me, that's like going from like, oh, let's make our relationship a little bit better to let's make this a lot better. Yeah. And you buy and you're changing what you're focusing on rather than changing on the little problems you can cut out. You're changing more the focus to how how can we connect on these things? How can I learn more about you?

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10x in a relationship. Yeah, that was a thought experiment I went through with this. I'm like wondering what that would look like.

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I always get wary around relationships because you run into a lot of backwards law stuff of like trying to optimize a relationship. Oh, yeah. It ends up becoming the relationship problem. Whereas if you just stop trying to optimize it, it would be happier now. I see. Okay. It's funny. I've run into a couple friends recently who are in new relationships and they've gotten really excited because they've set up like Notion dashboards to track KPIs and stuff. And I'm like, stop. Fucking stop.

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Like, just don't do it. Don't go down that road. I understand the motivation and the desire, but I will say this. Like, it's, to me, the...

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You know, ultimately the principle of the 10X rule or whatever is that there's a degree of success available to you that is much larger than you're currently conceiving of. And in the relationship realm, the way I've experienced that is an incredible amount of comfort and security with the same person.

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which is ironic because you can't force that. It's actually the lack of forcing that gives you that. Like it's the, after 12 years together, my wife and I, we have such an insane level of comfort and ease around each other that you can't achieve that. You can't shortcut it and you can't achieve it in any other way. And if you tried to shortcut it or achieve it in another way,

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you would be removing the comfort and ease. And so you'd be like, it'd be self-defeating. So anyway, it's a little bit of a tangent, but. No, I think you make a good point. It's probably, which is don't necessarily apply business principles to your relationships. Which there are. Jesus, tell me you're an American by not telling me you're an American, right? Well, I was just gonna say judging by my friend group, a lot of people need to hear that.

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It's so funny, dude. Like a lot of, you know, we don't have kids. So a lot of our friends out here in LA, like a lot of the new friends that we've made are five, 10 years younger than us. And so a lot of it is, it's kind of like, a lot of our couple friends out here are couples who are,

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likely to get married, you know, but either aren't married or they just got married. Um, but they haven't had kids yet. And, but they're all, you know, two, three, four, five years into the relationship. And we're kind of like the elder couple now. Right. So like we're, we're over 40 and we've been together for longer and everybody. And so we've, we've actually had a number of couples who have kind of come to us and like,

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peppered us with questions and it's it's like every single time fernando and i are just like yeah maybe just don't try so hard like yeah yeah just like yeah just enjoy being together and you know a lot of business people so you're saying a lot of them like try to run it like a business yeah exactly exactly all right well i'll i'll yeah i'll i'll not do that from now on

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Okay, we got one more. What is it? Focus on fewer things for longer periods of time. So this is the kind of classic Cal Newport productivity advice, the deep work advice. We had an episode with him a couple months ago where we touched on this quite a bit. You know, there's just, there's a lot of hidden, he calls it overhead tax, but

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you could call it like task switching tax. Like there's a mental tax that comes with the diversity of information that we're being bombarded with. So like the simple act of switching from email to your phone, to a web browser, to a phone call, to a Zoom call, to a notification, like just your attention moving between all of those things over the course of like five or 10 minutes generates...

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much more of a mental burden than say, just reading an academic paper for those 10 minutes. And, and it's really counterintuitive because on paper, you,

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a stupid zoom meeting and a notification on your phone and checking a slack message like those in a vacuum. None of those actions are difficult. None of them are, are intellectually difficult. None of them are physically difficult. They're certainly far easier than reading a, a challenging book or paper, but for some reason that series of activities will tire you out much faster. Um,

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than just sitting down and reading the single paper. And so, you know, a lot of Cal's advice revolves around being very conscious of like how you organize all your tasks, blocking out notifications, blocking out social media, staying off YouTube, getting rid of dumb meetings or, you know, batching them together at the very least. And I mean, I have to say like,

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I really think, I think he's on to something. Like I think this is the, he calls it like the fundamental challenge of knowledge work. And I think he's right about that. And I think it's hard to ignore how the increase in burnout has coincided with work that is just kind of objectively easier than it was say 50 years ago. As a population, we're not out in factories. We're not like,

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Dying in coal mines. Right. Like we were generations ago. We're sitting in air conditioned rooms on computers with amazing devices in our hands. Talking to people remotely in our gym shorts. Working whenever we want. However we want. With the people we want.

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Yet we are experiencing a mental and emotional fatigue that we haven't really experienced before. And so I just it's a really interesting phenomenon. And I just think it's so important for our generation to understand the nature of it so that we can adapt.

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I think that you're talking kind of on the micro level, the daily level, just getting shit done type of level. If you step back one level, though, too, and just the number of things that you're focusing on in general. I have a problem with this because I'm just I'm fascinated by everything. I'm interested in everything. Everything like, you know.

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Everything grabs my attention and I go with it. I mean even when I like out here I'm like drilling holes in ceilings and then I sit down and I'm you literally do by the way everybody Drew built this studio. I was fishing for that. I was With his bare hands. I'm not even exaggerating Like if you pull up the video if you're listening to this open Spotify Look at the video drew built this fucking studio with his bare hands. So I Apparently I hired a GC when I was hiring

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I was hiring a research assistant and I had no idea. But okay, that's my point. My point is though, Mark, is that I don't know. There's like, I feel very much like the jack of all trades, master of none type of thing. And that's what I mean. That next level, if you back out and you say, okay, I need to focus on fewer things rather than chasing every little rabbit down the hole. So this one actually, this raises an interesting question because, you know, Cal is,

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Cal kind of bangs on the drum of specialized focus, really drill deep on one thing. There is a prevailing counter argument. There's a different, there's an opposite school of thought. There's a great book called Range by David Epstein. I think Tyler Cowen has talked about this a bit as well, or maybe it was Peter Thiel, but like the importance of generalists today, because the,

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A generalist today, because there's access to so much information and there's so much disparate things and opportunities and different trends and fields and research coming out and data coming out, that we actually need generalists more than ever simply to tie the thread between all the stuff out there. Right. If you're only zoomed in on your field and you're

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like your knowledge base, you're going to become too detached from the wider world. And actually generalists are going to be the ones who are going to be able to keep track of everything.

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I don't know if I buy that, but I think it's a really interesting argument. And Epstein in particular, you know, he tries to argue in his book, he finds examples of how some of the people that we consider domain experts were actually generalists. You know, like Steve Jobs was very famously kind of a generalist. Like he was really into art and calligraphy and,

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Eastern spirituality and like all those things really influenced his views of technology and consumer products. He talks about Roger Federer and how like Federer, you would assume that Federer was like playing tennis all day every day since he was four years old. But it turns out that Federer actually spent as much time playing soccer and sports.

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a bunch of other sports or like Magnus Carlsen, the best chess players ever lived. Like apparently he spends when he was like competing for world championships, he actually spends his days playing soccer with his friends. The day before he goes in to actually play the chess match and it like it like frees up his brain to be more creative during the chess match. So it's an interesting argument. I don't I don't know where I land or or how much I buy it, but it's it's out there.

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No, I, and I've, I've tried that on before. I've tried to kind of take that view. And I think there is some merit to that. There's also a great little book. It's a, it's an easy read. It's called how to be everything by Emily Wapnick. Okay. And she talks about kind of this same thing. She was very much a generalist and fascinated by everything. And also left a PhD program like I did, you know, which is very common amongst people like us, I think. And

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She talks about what you're saying is if you can find a theme across these domains. Yeah. And I do think I do really like it when I am like feeling scatterbrained, but then all of a sudden I find one idea in one domain and bring it over to another and tie the two together. That's very satisfying. So maybe if I focused on that more, that would be a little bit more more productive for me. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah, I don't know. I do think we live in a time that rewards that more than ever before. Intuitively, that feels true to me. But that said, to be able to make those connections, you need to be able to focus on that theme. One at a time. I think it's the one at a time thing. It's the one at a time that's important. Magnus Carlsen can't be playing chess while he plays soccer. He needs to play one and then go play the other.

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yeah yeah and i don't know it would be fun to watch him try he could probably if anybody could do it probably do it yeah if anybody could do it it's probably no for real for real all right what else is that it i think that's it i think that's the pod mark i still don't feel successful drew yeah perhaps it's just a faulty definition of success

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That could be, that's a whole other podcast. That's a whole other podcast. That's a whole other podcast, yeah. Well, until we dig into that, until we dig into my faulty sense of success or lack of success, that's all for today's episode. Be sure to like and subscribe, leave a comment, leave a review, sign up for the newsletter. It's at markmanson slash newsletter. I send out a newsletter every Monday morning with a few pieces of advice and also breakthroughs from readers. Anything else you'd like to add, Drew?

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That's all I got today. That's it? That's it? That's it. No quirky sign-off. No doing this one straight. Okay. All right. All right. Well, we'll be better next time. Until next time.